5 Live Boxing with Steve Bunce - Punch Perfect: 3. Throwing in the Towel & The Money Makers

Episode Date: August 5, 2026

Ade Oladipo, Emily Eubank, and Liam Gough are back to put the boxing world to rights in another hard-hitting episode of The Punch Perfect Podcast on BBC Sounds! After a brief warning to expect a few passionate slip-ups of explicit language, the team dives straight into 'The Clinch' to confront one of the most critical safety debates in the sport today. Guided by producer Jay's envelope, the hosts start a strict three-minute timer to dissect the statement: "Trainers need to throw in the towel more often." Do corner teams protect their fighters enough, or does the warrior mentality of the sport stand in the way of vital safety decisions? The hosts have just one round to debate and reach a final verdict. Then, it's time to return to 'The Blueprint' to draft the next critical component of their Frankenstein GOAT. With the legendary power of George Foreman and the unbreakable heart of Chris Eubank Senior already secured in the first two episodes, the crew turns their attention to a highly lucrative attribute: MARKETABILITY. This segment is all about the unique ability to sell out stadiums, deliver legendary trash-talk soundbites, and put absolute bums on seats. Each host pitches their top three ultimate self-promoters and crowd-pullers from boxing history. Through fierce debate and elimination rounds, they must collectively agree on the single most marketable fighter to add to their growing masterpiece. Finally, the bell rings for 'The Final Round' as Ade steps up to present his controversial hot take on the current state of champion politics: "Undisputed belt holders shouldn't lose all their belts after one loss." The crew goes back and forth on whether the undisputed status should have its own safety net or if losing it all is simply the brutal reality of the squared circle. Unfiltered, highly opinionated, and packed with expert insight - this is the conversation every fight fan needs to hear. Subscribe to The Punch Perfect Podcast on BBC Sounds, leave your verdict in the comments, and don't miss a second of the build!

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. Hello, Greg Jenner here. I'm the host of You're Dead to Me, the BBC comedy show that takes history seriously. Every episode, I pair up a top historian with a fantastic comedian and we have a lovely, funny, fascinating chat about a different subject from world history. And in this new series, we're beginning with an epic voyage through the story of Homer, the Iliad and The Odyssey. And that's with Kyle Smith Bino joining us. And then we'll be learning about Francis Galton and the racist disclosures. accredited pseudoscience of eugenics with Desiree Birch. We'll meet many medieval saints in their bone boxes with Rachel Parrott. So if that sounds like your sort of thing, listen to your dead to me wherever you get your podcast.

Thank you. Bye. Let's have a little sample of what we're going to get in this episode. When he's walking over to the doctor, he's not even taking a punch and his legs are whibble wobble. Does that not kind of, you know, the penny not drop? Imagine Mama Dolly with an X or an Instagram. Meet me here. It's like checkers, right?

You get to the other side. No, chess, but you get to the other side. You get your queen back. You've done it. Maybe you come undisputed. You just scatter the belts again. Yeah, because if you think... If you come undisputed, maybe it's like, okay, I've done it all.

Done. I'm Emily Eubank. I'm Liam Gough. And I'm Adiola Deepa. Look, there might be a bit of swearing, a bit of Beffin and blinding. I do apologise. We get passionate and we like to kind of say the cuss words when we shouldn't. But look, it's fun.

Let's get into it. Let's enjoy it, people. And if you're new to the pod, welcome. So first part of today's pod, one of our favourite parts, we are getting into the clinch. The clinch. We love the clinch. A hot taking boxing. We don't know what we're going to talk about. We like a clinch. We do like a clinch. Well, not in a boxing match, we don't like a clinch. We bloody hate them. But here, we bloody love them. Let's do it. So Jay, you're going to come in with the envelope? Producer Jay, doesn't want to be in the camera, but wants to be in the camera. Here we go. All right, the discussion today for three minutes.

Trainers need to throw in the towel more often. So look, okay, for those of you that don't, I'm talking about trainers, boxing trainers on the corner when your fight is getting teed up, do you need to throw in that white towel to say enough is enough? Well, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, three minutes on the clock. Well, I think they do.

And I think recent history has shown us they need to be trolling in the towel as soon as the fighter is, it's apparent. He's not going to win and he's taking punishment. Troll me in the towel. He ain't going to win. But when is it apparent? Especially in your, I assume, referring to the recent fight where it's heavyweight boxing, where

One punch can change everything. But when it's apparent that that punch ain't going to come, then what do you do? But no, it could. There is no such thing as the punch might not ever come. Because I think we've seen in boxing over the years that punch could come. There are so many instances of a fighter turning it around. So many. But when they've taken a beating, like what we've seen in some cases.

And not even just heavy weight, lower weight as well. They're fires. They know what they're signing up for. They know, this is their job. Okay. Corral is Castillo. Castillo kicking the, you know what, out of Corales. Corales down twice, spits out the gum shield, can barely walk.

Joe Goose and sends him out, he gets the biggest upset win we've ever seen in boxing. What if they can punch, like Corrales? How many times have we seen fighters who can punch? If they're not causing any damage to the other fighter, then yes. But again, recent fight, let's say Fabio Wardley versus Daniel Dubois, he knocked him down twice. We know his power can hurt Daniel. So when he looks like he needs to be pulled out, but he's still throwing him. throwing back shots. He's still, okay, not as on his feet as we'd like him to be.

He was checked out twice by the doctors. How can you, how do you make that call? Okay. So when he's walking over to the doctor, he's not even taking a punch and his legs are whibble wobble. Does that not kind of, you know, the penny not drop? The penny not drop. I thought he looked okay when he was walking over the first time. If the penny should drop, and I agree with you, look, I mean, ultimately it's a dangerous sport and, you know, we know what As you say, though, we know what they're signing up for. Why didn't the doctor stop it? Why don't the doctor stop it more often?

If he's walking over to the doctor, everyone goes over to the doctor right to check you up. Why is the doctor, a doctor, a doctor, not a trainer, a doctor saying, it's okay, go and fight. Because they're there on a medical basis. So can he see, is he cut? You know, that's their role. That's what they're allowed to stop it on. Should that change? I don't know.

They're not, they've not been in the gym. They don't know these fighters. They don't know what they're capable of. This is the thing, though. I think it goes beyond the gym. I think then when you take that type of punishment it goes beyond the gym

because ultimately these fighters then go to a doctor in the immediate aftermath of the fight so I think the doctor has the chance to almost stop you from coming to see them by saying okay this is enough but to answer your question I'm going around about houses

I do think that towel should be thrown in more often absolutely I sometimes think that some trainers have a financial incentive not to throw them in I think that was well I think that they are hoping and praying this guy is going to win

so he can make me more on money. And in some cases, he'll make him anything because he's taken too much damage. Oh, it's too tough. No, I think this one, we need to debate more. I think this takes longer than three minutes. Yeah.

All right, Jay, put another three minutes on the time. Okay, does it matter if a fighter is A unbeaten and it's a world title fight? So it's more than just, it's more than just your average Joe in there. Does it matter the guys unbeaten and it changes everything

if they get the L on their record, right? And it's a world title fight. It's the biggest fight of their life. Do you give them a bit more? No, if they're taking a beating... But they haven't been dropped. Let's add that in. That's even worse. Why?

Because they're taking consistent punishment to the head. What would you rather? Would you rather a fighter who is in a world title shot he hasn't lost yet, takes the L but lives to fight another day rather than go through all that? Maybe he pulls a win, maybe he doesn't. But he's done after that. But that's, but okay, let's just put the name on the list we're talking about, right? Let's say it's Fabia Ward who we're having the discussion about. he's shown in the past to come through beatings.

He's done it against Fraser Clark where he took a shalacking in the last few rounds as well and somehow pulled out a drawer and Justassuni, maybe not as bad a beating but he took some licks from Justice Houni and found the way right at the end. So he's proven and he's shown to us that come the latter rounds,

this guy can still throw back with venom. And he even hurt Dubois in round eight or nine where it looks like he's taking it and then he for some reason starts to throw back and Dubois gets wobbled a little bit. So there's history of him being able to absorb punishment and still throwback. Okay, what's the difference between those two and Dubois?

Dubois has probably the best punch in the heavyweight division. Those two didn't. Well, he obviously doesn't because he couldn't knock Fabio down. Couldn't knock Fabio down, but he sure as hell did everything else. Okay, prior to Dubois having the best punch in the heavyweight division, which we've clearly made up now, who has the best punch in the heavyweight division? I'd say Zelaide. Hold on, we need to stay on track.

Fabio Wardley is the best punch. Bring it back. We're trying to debate whether the town needs to be thrown in more. I think 90% of the time, trainers, get it right. They throw in the towel. Heavy weights, it's hard. I think most trainers get it right. I think referees get it wrong

a lot. I think referees could step in a lot more. The towel, no. They're not going to deprive their fighter who they see work in the gym day in, day out. They're not going to take that away from them unless it's really, really bad. Are they waiting

for the ref to do it? A lot of the time, I would think. Is that what they're doing? The ref isn't doing it. Who's more up close and can hear the fighter's breathing, or the winceing, are they almost waiting for the ref to say,

you do it. Almost like, I'm going to take responsibility away from me. It should be the referee's job, right? Yeah. But I also think, they get that minute,

they get that minute, though, in between around where they see them like that. Yep. And if you can't make up a decision then, then you've got a problem. And then you're removing, you've got to, like,

remove all your loyalty to the fight and think, that's just a human being with wife and kids, and you've just got to save them. Which I don't think they do enough. That's why I, think if any doubt you see something you don't like sorry it's not your choice it's my choice

i'll take the hit i'm trying to tell i'm with you there you go oh okay well there's the bell yeah it's two 10 eight rounds to me i don't think you won that i'm you haven't convinced me i don't convince you of anything that who's who's who's you know watching a family member take a beating sometimes and i still don't feel that way because i know it's not sense but it means more to them to win than to have that towel thrown in. I like that. I like that. And we always hear it, don't we?

Sometimes it's more in movies, granted, don't you dare throw that towel in? Because you're right, they do know what they're signing up for. They understand it. I think we mere mortals will never understand what that's like. They know the punishment. Yeah. They know what they're signing up for. They understand the punishment they're receiving and the punishment they're getting.

And I think trainers understand it as well because most trainers are ex-fighters or have been in the gym with these guys for a long time. I think we as fans on the outside don't quite get it. And so we're looking at Ben Davison as an example and we're like, throw it in, throw it in. And he's probably thinking, no.

There's more, this guy I can give him. I know what this guy's got when you guys don't. So maybe you still win the round but it's not 10-8. Okay, maybe it's a 10-9. It's a split decision is what it is. It is a split decision, but I won't. How did you win?

Because Adair agrees me to. I don't agree with you. I think adding is also split decision. I'm a split on it. I'm very split decision. I'm unanimously the other way and you're the amount of the other way. So overall. I'm very split because I've seen fighters come back.

Yeah, exactly. I've seen fighters come back from like where you feel like they're done and they can't win and they somehow land something. It's always the 12th round. Yeah. And that is this round, the clinch. Okay. So if you feel like...

We are a draw. We are a draw. That's the voice of producer Jay, by the way, who, doesn't want to be on the camera, but kind of does. I'm guiding you where you need to be. It's a draw. It's a draw. Okay.

I'm happy of a draw. I'll take the draw. Even though I feel like I want. I feel like I got robbed. Like real boxing. All right, we go, people. This is it, the blueprint. I'm very excited about this because as we know,

this show is all about building the Frankenstein of fighters. The guy that could go out and kick the ass of everyone. Let's do it. So, so far we've got George Foreman. Yeah. We've got your dad. He's, okay. Let's.

And you insisted on that. Well, you voted for him. Well, you gave us no choice. That's, that's strong. Well, no, he was outvoted for him because he laughed about your dad being in, if I remember correctly. What did you say? You said a word. I said absolutely not.

That was it, yeah. And then voted for him. By the end, you may have convinced me. So we got George Warmer for power. The other guy for. For heart and resilience. Are we so happy with those? We are still happy with those.

I don't know, you know. Oh, God. I don't know, you know. Which one? The heart and resilience. Fabio Wardley? No. Absolutely not.

Absolutely not. I think we save him for chin. We save him, yeah, we save him. Yes, we save him for chin. We're going to have to talk about chin at some point and my God. Indeed. We will save him for chin. Fair.

But this week's, it's marketability. That is everything, you know. How good are you in the ring? How good are you off camera? How good are you in interviews? There's a lot. This isn't a straightforward one. There is going to be a lot of different picks, I think, between us.

each have tree fighters and we each as hard as it is and as strange the last week show was that we all ended up agreeing with your dad we do all have to agree yeah we have to agree it's going to be tough you're right because what is marketability is it is it bums on seats is it someone that can sell paper views is it someone that's got in today's world a bigger social media following does that even really mean anything when it comes to boxing is it someone that ticks every box in terms of everyone likes that person, ladies of a certain age, young kids, everything. It's not easy. It's not easy. No, it's not.

So I will take the lead on this one and I will say... So I love how you decide that you're taking the lead. Like, where is this? Let him have it. Do you want the lead? No, no, no, that's okay. I am going to name someone who we've already mentioned before and he's already on this list on the Frankenstein, Mr. George Foreman. George Foreman.

That's horrendous. How? It's horrendous. Did you ever have a George Foreman? No. Did you? Yes? I don't recall.

But I don't think that's got anything to do with marketability in terms of the fight. Yeah. What? Because he can sell grills, all of a sudden he can fight. One of the biggest fights of all time, Roman in the jungle, Kinshastas Ayer, Mohammed Ali, George Foreman. It's not in the top ten. Excuse me.

It's not in the top ten of, well, money making, paper views. Had it been today's market, it would have been. Yeah, that's because of a certain guy called Muhammad Ali. George. Muhammad Ali could have thought Joe Fraser there. He could have fought anyone. It's Mahmada Ali. Ali, Bumay.

I never heard anything about Foreman. That is all Muhammad Ali. You can have it. It's fine. I will take George Foreman. Let's hope you're at my George Foreman grill. That's when he was a pastor, right? He bought at the Furman Grill.

No, he was, I think he became heavyweight champion. Yeah. The oldest heavyweight champion in history, mind you. Yeah. And they all wanted to fight George Foreman. Yeah. And then they wanted to give it to Hulk Hogan. Hulk Hogan said, no.

George Foreman said, I'll take it. And he made more money from the grills. they did in boxing. There you go. Yeah, which says to this conversation, Markability in boxing, he isn't taught. He saw more grills than he did fights. The name, though. People knew the name. They're specific to boxing.

Yeah, because people are like, with George Format, the heavyweight champion, that's his grill. I'm going to buy that. Ah, there you go. There you got you there. No, you didn't. I just don't have any. It's almost like banging my head against the wall, this one. Go on then. Do you want to go? Sure. Yeah.

I've got Ali. Okay. Is he on anyone? else's list? No. No. No, but not because of any other reason apart from I might use him further down the line for something else. See, this was what I was thinking, right? Yeah, yeah, strategic. Yeah, no, so strategic, but the opposite of yours. So he's yet to come up on our list of Frankenstein goat contenders for anything. So I'm like, why does everybody, no matter the age, even, you know, a child born five years ago, maybe not five years ago, maybe not five years

go, but you know. Someone, they all know the name, right? I feel like he's one of those people. You can show his face to anywhere around the world. And I was thinking about this, you know who that is. Yeah. You know, oh, Ali.

Yeah. He's more recognizable than I think. Him or Mike, who's the most recognizable fighter ever? I would say, Mike just like, yeah, just that. Tyson? Yeah, because he was closer to like today's generation. So I think more people recognize. Imagine you fought in the 60s to the 80s,

you still know his name. It's incredible. And we're all, if you say greatest fight of all time, most people that don't know boxing, we'll just say Ali, because that's what comes to their head, right? But he's not actually got, he's not actually the top in many attributes. Or maybe even any. We're going to, you know, he's not on our list yet.

Not yet. You said you might have him for something along the line. No, you're right. He could be the guy that's like an age out of everything, but not a 10 in anything. But I think he's the greatest of all time. So do I. Yeah.

Yeah, why though? Just everything. Because he's marketable. Because he is. He's a legend. He's an icon. He fought over like, what, three and a half decades. And he fought everyone, all commerce.

Yeah. So, yeah, he's my pick. My number one pick is Anthony Joshua. Now, it could be the Nigerian flag behind me. I don't know. It could be that reason. But when you think of, when I think of marketability, I think of Bums on Seats, AJ, stadiums,

almost became the norm. Stadiums ain't the norm, by the way, which is why Carl Frotch always says, I had 80,000 at Wembley because that's difficult to do. And AJ can, there was a time when I thought AJ could fight me in for the stadium. I thought it was that popular. He didn't need a dance partner.

I thought he was so big. But when I think of that route to becoming sort of marketable, I think of what sets you out. And for boxing, it's Olympic gold medal. Because Olympics is what everyone watches. AJ won Olympic gold medal in London. So automatically, already the red carpet's been rolled out for you.

And then you look at him commercially, everyone loves him. Hugo Boss, Land Rover, all the other brands that even don't, associate themselves with boxing, love AJ. And then he looks like a Greek god. Okay. Let's be honest about it.

He looks like a Greek god. So you've got the girls that like him and the men that really want to look like him. I don't think I've seen anyone ushering more females into boxing in this country than AJ. To the point where I know females that just go crazy about AJ, AJ, AJ, AJ. So I think that AJ just brought in a new fan base to boxing that I don't think I've seen anyone bring from this country yet. Okay. So that's what I'm going to pull you up on, right? Muhammad Ali, worldwide well-known.

George Foreman, worldwide well-known. Anthony Josh goes to America, they're calling him Anthony Johnson. So he's only done it in the UK. Marketability worldwide. Where's AJ done it? When you do AJ's pay-per-view numbers in the UK, you don't necessarily need to go worldwide. Like, if you're a new way and you'd hit numbers in Japan,

you don't care if someone in America buys your paper-view, you're doing it in Japan. Yeah, but we're trying to do the Frankenstein. That's all well and good, the UK-Frankisdiscoine go. So you're not trying to tell me that George Foreman has sold more paper views. or done more bonds and seats than Anthony Joshua are you? Do you know who has?

Mama Dali. No. Who? My other pick. Go on. Mayweather. Five of the top 10 grossing pay-per-views involve him. Five of ten.

The numbers are crazy. So. But was Floyd Mayweather marketable in a sense of you wanted to see him fight because you liked him or you wanted to seem loose? I have no idea. Doesn't matter. Because I don't like watching him. But the numbers say people watch him. Yeah.

The money says people watch him. The paper view by say people watch him. The facts are the facts. I couldn't tell you why. Because you hear a lot of people say, it's boring to watch. Don't like it. No, he was not. He could be.

No, he was not. Pretty boy Floyd. Pretty boy Floyd. Money was. When you call yourself the money, then by default for me, you are just marketing king. I think it was a genius. I just was obsessed with watching everything he did.

Did you hear him say marketing king? Marketing king. Is he on your list? Yeah. Okay. He is. I was going to save him to last, but you bought.

about early so I'm riding with you. I think when you talk about the two biggest things, pay-per-view buys and bums and seats, he is number one by some distance on both of those. I believe so. Okay, a rival of Floyd Mayweather. Oscar Delahoeia is my next pick. Boring.

Boring. If Oscar Delahoeia was around today, I mean, like, Ryan Garcia is like the modern version of Oscar Delahoeia. That's just because the Mexicans rally. Oscar had appealed to everyone. Everyone. Everyone loved Oscar Delahoe.

Everyone in the late 90s, early 2000. whether it was in Ireland, England, Europe, wherever. Oh, Oscar Delahoeia, we know him. Really? And girls loved them. Oscar Delahoeia was the quintessential pretty boy back in the day. He might be right about this. Olympic gold medalists as well.

Olympic gold medalists as well. Multiple time world champion. He massive fights, Tito Trinidad, just to name a few. Oscar Deloide Floyd, Floyd. Enormous numbers. Enormous numbers. Nowhere near Floyd. Close.

The only fight he is in the top ten. And bear in mind, he's the one with Floyd. He's doing that in the 90s, where so there is no social media. Floyd Mayweather can post on X and boom, people are, oh, I'm watching Floyd Mayweather. It was retired by time the socials were a thing. They were still a T. No.

2015. You're telling me in 2015, 2014, socials weren't what they are now. They were still a thing. Floyd benefited from shows like 24-7, those HBO 24-7s. But Floyd was almost a self-promoter. All these other people were mentioning, almost needed a promoter as well. I said AJ and Eddie. Floyd was literally him.

Yeah. Floyd was, I will do it myself. I will throw money in your face and you're going to love me or hate me, but I'm going to do it. It's going to antagonise you. You're going to get pissed off. You're going to watch me to get chinned or watch me to win. And he's still relevant now, which says a lot.

Hello, Greg Jenner here. I'm the host of You're Dead to Me, the BBC comedy show that takes history seriously. Every episode, I pair up a top historian with a fantastic comedian and we have a lovely, funny, fascinating chat about a different subject from world history. And in this new series, we're beginning with an epic voyage through the story of Homer, the Iliad and the Odyssey. And that's with Kyle Smith Bino joining us. And then we'll be learning about Francis Galton

and the racist discredited pseudoscience of eugenics with Desiree Birch. We'll meet many medieval saints in their bone boxes with Rachel Parrott. So if that sounds like your sort of thing, listen to your dead to me wherever you get your podcast. Thank you. Bye. Well, my last pick is still relevant now.

And, God, he's nearly 60. Mike Tyson. Yeah, he's online. Mike Tyson. Massive. heavyweight, he's exciting, you don't care if that fight goes 10 rounds or 30 seconds. You're locked in.

You're tuned in. I agree. He's on my list. And he's still relevant now. I mean, people nowadays, bear mind, he's nearly 60. Before he fought Jake Paul, people are saying, he could still be heavyweight champion now. He could still do a run. That's how relevant. That's how much people love him. And he puts up a 30 second clip of him hitting the pads. That's it. It's amazing. Mike Tyson's back.

Everyone watches, everyone on. Everyone knows him. He can't go to, there's probably, hardly any countries in the world he could go to where people don't know who he is, where if you walk down the street, he'd get mobbed. This is true. My person, though, nearly became president of his country and had a whole country backing him. And you mentioned Floyd Mayweather. If it wasn't for him being a dance partner, Floyd wouldn't have got that number.

That's Mani Pachia. Mani Pachia had a whole country behind him. That's 275 million people in the Philippines while tuning in to watch him. Sensation. And what I like about him as well, he's not doing the thing where you hate him. He's not throwing money. It's not about cars and jewelry and look at me. He's just a nice person. And sometimes good guys need to win. And Mani Pachial was just that, just a nice human being that kicked your ass in the ring

and did it a way in which where people were like, I've got to tune in to watch him. And yes, Mayweather was the pay-per-view king. But number two, behind Mayweather every single time was Mani Pachial as well that could sell. Not according to the facts. Not according to the fans? No. No. Mike Tyson has three of the ten of the highest. selling pay-per-views.

Packy out only has one and that's against Floyd. Really? Emily's just done this to me live. Please cut this out. We're not having this. We're not having this happen. Oh, Tangada was you, not me.

No. So I think we've all dropped three each and three good ones each as well. A lot of them are still relevant today. Any ones that we've not put in, that Fury? Honourable mentions. Tyson Fury?

We could probably give Fury and I'll mention. At home with the Furries has helped him big time. He does stadiums. And he does stadiums. That stadiums. does good pay-per-view numbers and he's almost done it organically as well like I look at AJ and I mentioned AJ

Olympic gold medalist everyone knew him no one knew Fury coming up Fury is that guy like he's gonna lose isn't he I mean he's just look at him belly's out it doesn't even look like a fighter doesn't he's kind of got that weird look about him and the way in which he's kind of built himself and I think the people like Fury

and that connection with the people he felt like you can have a drink with him like I think it's almost a bit Ricky Hatton-esque that's what I was going to say on it we have to Ricky Hatton he has to get a show Honorable mention, they hit Manhattan. The fans travel into Las Vegas. 20,000.

They made it. That was incredible. 20,000 to Vegas he took to fight Mayweather. 20,000. Then playing the drums, there's only one Ricky Hatton. He's got to get an honorable mention. Honorable mentions. You've got the Irish flag behind you,

and I know he only had one boxing match. But let me tell you, in terms of marketing genius, I don't think there's anyone bigger than McGregor. No. McGregor on the mic was the greatest I've ever. Like, you know, I'm Mohamed Ali on the mic. obviously. McGregor on the mic.

So are you giving him an honorable mention in the boxing world? Yes. For one fight. Wow. For one fight. Because that fight, again, the second highest drawing fight of all time. And it's the way in which you just got the mic.

Oh, the fuck is that. I can't even do the accident. When you try. Do it. I'm not from inner city Dublin. I'm from the nice part. Do it. All right.

Who the fuck is that guy? I think mine was a bit better. I'm not from inner city Dublin. Come on. Bring it back. Bring it back. boxing, boxing. So two of mine have got two votes each.

Who is your two? So Tyson and Ali. You voted for Tyson, you voted for Ali. Lloyd and AJ. Yeah, and sorry, yes, I made a mistake. Three of mine. Get out of it. Jay's putting a scene Hamid on the screen.

No. Go away. No. Not at the level, I don't think. Shambles. Shambles is strong, but no. You know what I think of Nazia? All the guys around this

table I just mentioned, like, enormous numbers. I think Nas is incredible in terms of just a market ingenious, but I don't think he done the numbers that we think he did. He has the north. That's literally it. Yeah, he didn't do the numbers. And when he fought Barrera, like, people from the, people from Sheffield didn't travel over. I mean, he wasn't that as, I think incredible, but I don't think he was, never did a big

paper view. Yeah, we can move on from that one. We can move on from that one. I'm saying Mike Tyson is my pick. And in my tree names, I'm going, I'm putting on the table on my class. I like the process of elimination we've been doing. So get rid of one of yours. Who were your three? Remind me.

Foreman, Delahoya. Yeah. Thank you for the giggle. And Mike Tyson. You know it's about the foreman one. You brought the grill to the equation. I did. Wait one second.

No, bringing gruel. You brought Ranger over from Anthony Joshua to the equation. I said sponsors and brands that he brought to the, yeah. And it's the former grill. So who's going out of yours first? George Foreman. Right, there we go. Your three?

My three were Mani Pachiel, AJ and. And Floyd, I will get rid of Mani Pachia. Oh, okay. Over AJ. Really? Yeah. AJ was a monster over here. I feel like we forget.

I'm massive. My three. Ali, Tyson. Oh, mine blank. Do you say Floyd? Yeah, obviously I said Floyd. There we go. Oh, that's tough.

That's tough. You've gone for the three. Yeah. Yeah, literally the three biggest. I've nailed for myself. Who are the three easiest? I got it. Wow, okay

I think that's incredibly difficult That is difficult Yeah, the true easiest Make it hard You have to pick between them now I think Floyd's going to be my number one I think he's going to win this Out of those two

I would get rid of Oh my God I'll get rid of Tyson Oh my God One second So if she said get rid of Ali You would have said okay Yes

Muhammad Ali Mike Tyson Muhammad Ali. Yeah, it's like Yes. No, none of us are thinking straight today I don't think we've had a bit.

Muhammad Ali I'm upset I didn't have him on Yeah, I'm surprised I don't know what's going on to be honest Okay You know when you were talking about There was no social media

Like, Mahmada Ali with social Belly TVs Yeah, close sir TV's and they're still that known Imagine Muhammad Ali with an X Or an Instagram Meet me here

Yeah It'd be ridiculous But if we're looking at the facts, it is Floyd. It is Floyd. Okay, but there's likeability come into it. It has to. Then it's Ali. If it's likeability.

So does Tyson. People did like Tyson. He went to jail. I know, but yeah, it didn't stop people. It doesn't stop people found by old around now. We're bringing stuff like that. We're bringing stuff like that in, you have to discount so many people. Yeah, you can't talk about Fury.

You can't talk about any, not for prison, but like, if we're talking about the impact they have on children or like influence in like things that they say. You would not want someone to look on to McGregor. That's my point then. That all needs to come together. This is marketability. But I think all that comes into play when someone's looking at it. But unfortunately, marketability sometimes means bad publicity still generates money, still

generates views, bums on seats. As we spoke last week, drug cheats still sell out stadiums. It all, marketing, it doesn't have to be good marketing, unfortunately. But if it can be good, and that can somehow overpower bad, then Muhammad Ali ticks the box. He does take a lot of boxes. Fought against America said, I'm not even going to war.

I'm not fighting your fight. He ticks so many boxes. Ticks so many. And you know what? I don't think he's going to make it as any other part of our Frankenstein. I think I... You think that, but we don't know what's coming up yet.

We don't. We don't know what's coming up next. I just don't think he has any... I don't think he's 10-10 on anything. He's just perfect all-rounder. I'm willing to get rid of my AJ and my Floyd if it means Ali is in. You didn't even have him in your three. I know.

Okay. I know. I'll go Ali with you. I'm happy to go Ali. I have to get rid of Mike Tyson for Ali. No, that's, we don't have to. I'm keeping Mike Tyson down. So it's split.

No, it's majority. We've got to talk him into this. It doesn't make sense. Okay. Did you want Floyd or Ali? Ali. You was going to go, Ali. I was going to go, Ali.

I was going to go. I was and then I've deeped it and I'm like, that makes way more sense. Let's talk about the social medias because that is so important. If Ali had socials or wasn't, you know, his career was 60s to 80s, it's not even a discussion. They did say he was bigger than the Beatles. He was probably bigger than everyone, Kennedy, everything in the 60s. And I genuinely believe if you do that photo thing that we're talking about, Floyd,

Ali Tyson and say to people, even today, who is who I think the majority people tell us Ali I think Floyd would be like I think there's some place you'll go

Oh people wouldn't know Floyd I think he'd take Floyd's photo to Nigeria I'm just I don't think everyone would know Floyd I think every single person know Ali is Right I hate to say this

but because I'm kind of proven Emily right with this When I was a kid I knew who Muhammad Ali was before I even knew any other boxers I just knew who he was from hearing about him

The first time I ever heard Mike Tyson was on Sky News when he was getting ready to fight Lennox Lee was no idea who he was prior to that. So yeah, I had no idea who Mike Tyson was prior to that.

I was six or seven. Was this pre-the-eer-by? Thank you. I forget in your age. Sorry, it's the age thing, in it? I keep forgetting. You made me feel like he's a little older. Oh, we need to reveal to the viewers, actually,

how old you are. Yeah, they don't know. Because we ask them in the comments. Yeah, the comments section. They want the answer. 32. Thank you. Thank you very much.

Made me spill my water. All right. So what we're saying then. Let's wrap this up. I think we're agreeing that it is, Muhammad Ali. I'm going to, reluctantly say you are right again

Mahamad Ali I'm happy with that you didn't even have him you didn't even have him I win again yeah Mamadali final round it's a hot take

I don't agree with it at all that's why it's a hot take all right so it's a hot take you want to take us into this one okay so the hot take is should an undisputed champion who's collected all the belts

one by one by one i.e. Alexander Usik for example who went and collected all the should they have one fight and lose all the belts and that person collect all their belts from them. Yes.

Why? Because he's defending all belts. He has lost all belts. But he is not. Do you not think it's unfair? Like, okay, the one I was thinking was when Bernard Hopkins, who had 21 defences, right,

in the middleweight division, so he's 21 times he's fought and he's collected all these belts, won by, he fought Jermaine Taylor and lost every single belt in one fight. I think that's unfair. Well, that's the way to Cookie Cromples. But is it fair?

Life's not fair. No, this is not that serious. It's not. But that's like saying, you know, okay, you know, you've played well all season, but you lost your last two games. So now you're not Premier League champions. But you know. You were never Premier League champions. That's a completely, it doesn't make sense that analogy.

You never Premier League champions. You didn't win anything. Well, this is you've won it. So you've won all the belts. So you've put in all the hard graft and beat everyone. And then someone comes who's not put in any hard graft and just beat. It's you, and now all of a sudden they've got four or five new shiny belts when you've done the individual fights to win all five.

And this person's now done one, and now they've got all five. So someone's gone around and collected all of them and done all the work. So Thanos has got all the infinity stones. Yes. He's gone to war. He's got them all. And then they've gone. And then someone just comes and wins.

And all of a sudden, shit, I've got all of them now. Yeah. That's what they get in the big bucks, though. Yeah, they get in the big bucks. That's what they signed up for. Exactly. That is literally how they signed up for it. How would you split it?

So you say, okay. I'm the unified, but I'm only going to put WBO, WBC on the line. And that's happen sometimes, sometimes. Sometimes that happens. But it's more so because the fight or fighting doesn't want to actually pay the sanction fees.

Yeah, but sometimes it does happen. Very seldom. But if you're going for undisputed, you are going for all the belts. It's like Tyson Fury said when he fought Alexander Oosec, right, that I'm only going to keep the WBC title if I beat him. Okay. And yet you still fight for all the belts.

And if you'd won, you'd have won all the belts. I just think, you know, when someone becomes an undisputed challenge, champion, I view the person that wins all the belts from them differently to the person that collected them all. Isn't that what this lineal nonsense is though? It's like you get to be the linear champion because you were once unified. They got taken, well, you lost, but you still get that like accolade of being, you were unified. I sometimes don't even think you get the, to get the accolade that you deserve if you become undisputed by beating someone. I never

thought Jermaine Taylor was the greatest middleweight because he beat Bernard Hopkins. So if, so if If Daniel Dubois were to have chinned Alexander Usik and become undisputed, I wouldn't have thought. He wouldn't deserve it, no. You should have to go and collect them individually. There is something about that. That's my, yeah, there's something about you. You should have to fight. Yeah, you've got into everyone else's backyard and beating all the top guys.

Okay. And then because you've now done all the hard work and chinned them all and put all their effort in, someone fresh and young comes and ching you and now they're the greatest. Not necessarily true. So let's just say hypothetically, right. You've gone and you've collected all four belts, but I'm a contender. And I've fought a final eliminator and another one. and I've fought like one last final eliminator.

I'm mandatory. I've earned that crack. I've beaten you. I get your belts. Have I not done the hard work as well? Absolutely not. There's no way fighting a final eliminator is the same as going and beating champions. So Alexander Usick would have gone,

Alexander Usick, as an example, would have gone and beating all the champions to collect their belts. He beat AJ. It's a short cut to the top. No, what I'm talking about is cruiserweight. Okay, a cruiserweight. When he beat all the champions in their own backyards, went to their own backyard and beat all the champions. And then someone comes, as you just said, a shortcut to the top.

on the outside and says, yeah, I'll take them now because you've done all the hard work and you've almost killed yourself fighting all these killers and now you're not really at your best, I'm just going to come and beat you. It might not sound fair,

but that's the way the cookie crumbles at the end of the day. That's why you need to be on your A game because it's not just that you lose your undisputed state is you lose all those belts and you don't want to. Simple as.

That's why a lot of fighters vacate. They might vacate one or two of them. Like Alexander Ousek did, he's vacated the IBF, won it back and he'd probably win the WBO back. It's the way the cookie crumb You defend those titles, you lose. That's not a successful defence.

See you later. It's true. It's true. There's two sides to that coin, but that is, that's how it works. That's how, that's how the, the cookie crumbles. Indeed. Okay, so we're taking your standpoint on it. Why don't we just vacate one?

He wants to be undisputed. The guy wants to fight him for undisputed. Why would he vacate? Why would he vacate one? Because then it's not for undisputed. Well, I've done my job though. I've become undisputed. So I don't, I've done everything I needed to do,

to use the final example, I've collected all the stones. I've done it. I've conquered the world. I'm not giving you the chance to conquer the world when you've not put the effort in. You've not done it all. You've not done all the... You've not done all the final eliminators, final contenders,

but you haven't. Because you're not done the final eliminator for the WBC, WBA, WBA, WBO, I bf. You haven't. You've done one and you're fighting me, but I've collected all four. Does that make any sense? So if you're fighting...

If you're Agate Cabiel, who's going to fight Alexander Usier for the WBC, he's not fought the contender for the IBF, the WBF, the WBF, WBO and the WBA. He's only thought the contender for one, yet you're getting the chance to fight me for all of them, because I've got all of them and done all the work.

I think it's unfair. So are you suggesting then that what we do is, if I'm WBC mandatory and I'm fighting Alexander Ousek, Usec should only put that WBC title on the line? I shouldn't pay sanctioning fees to do their sanctioned bodies because I'd have to if it was undisputed. Are you saying that's what we should do moving forward then? So if I beat Osekek, I'd just take one belt, but he keeps the rest.

So then how, yeah, but if you do that, then how does anyone become undisputed? Exactly. How do they get distributed? After someone's gone and collected them all, how do we redistribute so that someone else can have the chance to fight all the top people? Maybe there's an argument. If you become undisputed, if you become undisputed, you get to the other side.

No, chess, where you get to the other side, you get your queen back. You've done it. Maybe you come undisputed, you just scatter the belts again. Yeah, because if you think, come undisputed, maybe it's like, okay, I've done it all, done. So what, they become vacant? They become vacant. And then the top two fight for them. And then everyone has to work for them again.

That might be the only way down. I think you need to make it harder. harder to become undisputed as opposed to someone doing all the work. Yeah. And then someone coming along and doing one fight and collecting everything. So then... So what you're saying then is, right? I become undisputed immediately.

All the sanctioned bodies say, keep one. We're taking the rest back. Which one do you want to keep? No, it should be like an NBA ring. It should be like a trophy that you get once you become undisputed that you keep forever. A nice ring would be good. Nice ring would be good. I like that.

I like that. I like that liver ring. I like that. You became undisputed. This is with you forever. Yes. But all the belts get redistributed. Yes.

And you can defend them individually. You still individually are the number one, but someone else has to try and beat you at each one to become undisputed again. But how does that work then? Because say I want to become undisputed again. So say I beat you for the WBC. Yeah. Right?

I'm now WBC. What do I have to do? Do I have to go on fight and eliminate it for the WBA to get in the... So I'm beating you. So you have to go and I did it to try and earn the crack at you again. Yeah. That's not word. You can even...

What if I, what if it's one. sided. I beat you one-sided, right? And I'm WBC champion. And it's like, great. Now we're going to see he's in a rematch for the next one. Okay, one-sided again. Brilliant. I don't think I'm following. Nevo, you lost me. All right. So I'm fighting Alexander Osoc, hypothetically. So Usook's undisputed. He's undisputed. He's got his ring because he's got his ring. But all the belts have been distributed. Let's for example, say he's kept WBO. He's kept WBO. So I beat him for the WBO. I have that. I didn't have to fight maybe someone again. No, then you have to fight whoever. If there's the vacant, Usox's

fake it at the WBA. Okay. So you now fight the bacon for the WBA belt. So you have to do the work. You have to do what he did. You have to do what Ussick did to become undisputed. Being Ussick shouldn't make you collect all the gold. I think what he's actually saying, I think I've just realized, he's the number one of each

belt. So he's got to then fight everybody again. But then actually that is just what already happens. Exactly. You just fight Usoc for all the belts. So we're talking about if we redistributed it after you get the ring, number two and number three would be fighting it out. But that's not fair because Usik is number one.

So you're not ever beating the top guy. He's vacated. Well, he's still around. Yeah. So, you know, there's a claim. So actually, they've thought this through and they've nailed it. If you want to be undisputed, you've got to beat number one. Yeah.

And whether you think it's fair or not, I beat Alexander Usek. I am now undisputed. Thanks for the belts. I'll see you later. Yeah. That's the way it is. As I said, the way the cookie crumbens. I can't have the cookie crumbling like this.

That's the way it goes. It's not fair. but it's the way it is. Yeah. And that's the way that cookie crumbles. That's the way to cookie crumbles. You're going to be saying that nonstop now, aren't you? You got like I've just heard it for the first time.

Yeah. Like you came up with it. Well, that is the wrap. Hope you enjoyed this week's episode of the Punch Perfect podcast. Please like, subscribe and share all that good stuff. Right, thank you. As always, as Liam said, for joining us, and we'll see you on the next episode. Thank you for listening to this latest episode of the Punch Perfect podcast on BBC Sounds.

Listen up. You can download BBC Sounds from the App Store. and subscribe to the Punch Perfect podcast where you can listen to all the series. The Punch Perfect podcast, Engineering the Ultimate Fighter, is an Insanity Studios production for BBC Radio 5 Live and BBC Sounds.

Hello, Greg Jenner here. I'm the host of You're Dead to Me, the BBC comedy show that takes history seriously. Every episode, I pair up a top historian with a fantastic comedian and we have a lovely, funny, fascinating chat about a different subject from world history. And in this new series,

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