5 Live Boxing with Steve Bunce - Punch Perfect: 4. Are Crossover Fights Ruining The Sweet Science?

Episode Date: August 12, 2026

Ade Oladipo, Emily Eubank, and Liam Gough return to give their unfiltered takes on the fight game in another punchy episode of The Punch Perfect Podcast on BBC Sounds! The gang steps straight into 'The Clinch' to take on a heated debate rocking modern combat sports. Producer Jay hands over the envelope, starting a strict three-minute timer for the hosts to dissect a contentious statement: "Crossover events do more harm than good for boxing." Is gimmick matchmaking pulling eyes away from true fighters, or does it bring a much-needed new audience to the sport? The trio has just one round to clash and reach a final decision. Next up, it’s back to 'The Blueprint' to build the next vital piece of their Frankenstein GOAT. With George Foreman lock-in for power, Chris Eubank Senior taking heart and resilience, and marketability already checked off, the hosts turn their attention to pure skill: BOXING TECHNIQUE. This section is all about the sweet science, masterful defense, and ring intelligence. Ade, Emily, and Liam each bring three legendary technicians to the table for elimination rounds, battling it out to select the single ultimate master of technique to add to their ultimate fighter. Finally, the bell rings for 'The Final Round' as Ade steps forward with a spicy hot take on fighter welfare and weight cutting: "It is time to implement mandatory hydration testing or same-day weigh-ins." The panel weighs the extreme dangers of drastic weight cuts against the logistics of changing a system deeply ingrained in the sport. Expertly argued, sharp, and brutally honest—don't miss out! Subscribe to The Punch Perfect Podcast on BBC Sounds, leave your thoughts in the comments, and follow along as the Frankenstein GOAT takes shape!

Here's what's coming up on today's episode. Doesn't make sense to me that you can literally be at bat on the skills and then somehow think you're going to be Superman 24 hours later. You've had the stinker in this blueprint every episode. Because I think outside the box, Emily, unlike someone. The box is out of window, mate. The only member of moment in that fight was when Fury got dropped by and got it. Was you excited by it?

No. What's going on, people? Welcome to another episode of the Punch Perfect podcast. We're about to assemble the Frankenstein of all fighters. We're going to take different attributes. and we're going to come up with something very, very special for you guys. I'm Adi Oliopo, by the way. I am Liam Gough.

And last but not least, I'm Emily Eubank. There might be some spicy language in this episode. Ooh, spicy language. We do get passionate here, don't we? So, guys, at the beginning of each episode, we get into what's called The Clinch. Who's taking it this week? I'm going to take it. So, Jay, give me the envelope.

Producer Jay with the envelope. There you go, right? Jay's going to have a statement that we're going to have to debate. All right, let's read the statement. Oh, interesting. It's time to implement mandatory hydration testing or same day weighings. The floor is yours, Mr. Liam Goff.

Absolutely. We should be doing same day weighings. Absolutely. It's gone to the stage now. They're doing ceremonial weighings. So they are taking their weight. First thing in the morning, they're doing like a little fake weigh-in

where they're saying, oh, you wait a hundred and thirty-five pounds even though you wait in in the morning. And they are coming into the ring 20, 25 pounds over. And we're seeing fights get pulled because fighters are cutting too much weight that they ended up having kidney failure.

Same day weigh-in. They will not be able to. the court any wage and it will get rid of all of this has to be because we have a weight bullies so what do you want them to do right closer to your weight closer to your weight refreshed by memory on what the weight classes are let's look obviously heavy weights don't have to make make there is no limit you so once you're over what is it for heavyweight once you're over 200 pounds you're free do what you want cruiser weight is 200 yeah light heavyweight 175 super middleweight 168 middleweight 154 and then 147 then 140 and then it starts to get

burger king Then it's literally every couple of pounds. That's when it's an issue. But if you look at it like this, right, in the 80s, they did same-day weigh-ins, right? If there was ever any injuries, it was more so because they were doing 15 rounds back then. They were doing 15 rounds. They were dehydrated because they were doing 15 rounds. But you guys like Marvin Hagler, who fought middleweight his whole career, if he'd have been around today,

Marvin Hangler probably never fight middleweight. He'd probably be 140, 147 pounder. I just don't understand how fighters put their body through so much to cut weight. and then arguably are going to have the hardest task they've ever done less than 24 hours later. It doesn't make sense to me that you can literally be at that on the skills and then somehow think you're going to be Superman 24 hours later. Don't cut so much weight, fight closer to your weight class, be as strong as possible, then come fight night. Surely you're just a bit more...

Surely you just want to eat a meal. And some fighters don't even do that. So I think same day wayings were false fighters to be as close to their weight class as possible. If you walk around at 180, you should be fighting close to 180. Not trying to get down to a weight just to be the bigger man or the bigger girl on the night. Doesn't make sense to me. And I think as well, when we have fighters cutting that much weight for a prolonged period of time, when they move up, their body is just, it's done.

They've been cutting weight for so long, unnecessary weight. The body is never right after probably the age of 30. That's why we see so many fighters in the lower weight division. Once they hit 30, that's it. It's a wrap for the most part. And what are you taking out of your body to make the weight? Exactly. You're taking out of this, aren't you?

and you're taking that away from the brain. Water. And it's so dangerous. Literally, there's no food. I mean, these guys are ripped. They're shredded to bones. They're just taking out water. And I don't think you can rehydrate sufficiently enough to not make it dangerous

that you don't receive concussions and brain bleeds. I think it's very, very dangerous. I think same day weigh-ins will stop that. And we'll force fight as to think, I've got to be around my weight class now because I'm going to have to fight in the less than 12 hours time. So I can't be that guy that jumps on. the skull was skeleton and then tries to be mystery. We get a lot, we got a lot more fights when we have these different weight classes.

When people move up and down, we'd have a lot less fights to watch if everyone was kept into that lane. So necessarily? Well, yeah, because for example, Usick, he's gone through. So we wouldn't have seen him fight in any other weight class if he was just in one. Good point. That's a good point. I'll give you that. Okay, you got me with that one. Thank you. She's done it again. Right on the bell.

That's someone's cheating because the bell came. Literally. Unless you can get an extension, I think you're done. So what are we, what are we saying? Split decision, unanimous. Split. Split. I still think same day wanes are important.

I just think fighter safety is the reason. I think, I think same day wanes would stop a lot of fighters. Look at the Olympics. Okay, even from a standpoint, forget the standpoint of safety. What about just from the standpoint of bullying? So me and you weigh 147 We did it

We did it a day before Because you killed yourself To make 1 47 You just absorb everything around you Come fight night You are now 170 Like Floyd's a great example Floyd used to weigh 153 in the ring

His opponents Were weighing 170 Because they put on 20 pounds So what So we weighed 1 47 But all of a sudden I'm a junior middleweight And you are like heavyweight

That's not fair Okay but heavy weights Have to do that That's different But they've accepted anything across 200 is fair game. How is it fair game though? Because heavy weights are genuinely not as skilled as the lighter weights.

I mean, if you think someone like, if someone's six foot nine, two hundred and seventy-five pounds, right? Has got to fight you sick. Has got to fight you sick. They are never going to be as fast. They're never going to be as fast. And if someone is 220 pounds and they hit someone 270 pounds with their best shot, it doesn't really matter.

You're going to hurt them. But it matters the other way around. Yeah, it does. If you're 150 pounds and you hit someone 175 pounds. So shouldn't there be a cap on the heavy weight as well? The only reason. More weight. I don't know about the heavy weights.

There's any reason I don't think there should be a cap on the heavy weights because the heavy weights don't have to make weight. Yeah. So it's basically freed. It's free to whatever you want to do, right? It's free. The other guys have to make weight, which is what harms them later on in the ring. Which is why if we took divisions out, less people would be making weight.

Yeah, but I think everyone would just automatically move up a weight. Yeah. I think everyone just jumps up a couple of weights. So the guys at welterweight one four seven would basically, for their next fights, really be fine at 160. Look at Conner Ben. Conner Ben's a great example. Look at how Conner Ben physically looked when he,

he thought your brother. Look at him in the most recent fight when he fought a 150. Shellab himself. Yeah, she'll be. I actually think he looked healthier at 160 than he did at 150. I'm like, oh, it's a different human being completely. And that's because he could eat, he could drink, he wasn't dying to make the weight. So I just think.

Yeah, but he's a 144-7 fighter. He's a 14-7 fighter. I don't think, no, but he's not. Okay. Yeah, he's not. And he's not, is he? No. So I think he benefited from the idea of, okay, what, another weight class higher?

fine, I can have another few meals. I can eat what I want, I can drink what I want. As opposed to your brother, it's like, I had to shrink himself down to the point we almost looked anemic. Like, my God, you don't look as healthy as the guy you're fighting because you're having to kill yourself to make a weight class. I just think the weight classes need to be looked at.

I think that's more the issue. I think we're split again. I think we are. I think me and I agree. Of course you don't. Never do. All right, here we go. This is the blooping.

This is where we've been. our Frankenstein fighter, someone that's going to be on the Mount Rushmore when it comes to boxing's greats. Not easy, but I think we do a good job so far. So far we've done power, George Foreman. We've done heart resiliency, Chris Eubank, Sr. And recently we did marketability and we all agreed, Muhammad Ali. So, Emily, it is. Emily, it's up to you. What's the subject this week?

In this episode, we're going to do boxing technique. I love it. Sweet science. Skill. Sweet science. That's going to be an interesting one. Yeah, this is for YouTube offense. I'm not so clued up on this side of things.

I'm proud of the slang. I like it. I like it. But look, in this whole thing, you've picked a winner more times than me and I have. I have. I like to give the names and let you two tell the facts about my names. You're about to say YouTube.

Me and you try and sound smart. One second. He's going to have someone for 1920s in here. We do. We do. We do. We do. We try.

No, no. I definitely sound smart. No, no. No, no. No, no. Okay. Well, I will go first. with my pick

and I will try and sound smart with Mr. Bernard Hopkins. The executioner Bernard Hopkins oldest world champion in boxing history

doesn't mean anything when it comes to the school set what does that mean? Largely done because he had the technique the sweet science

He had the sweet science down to AT Yeah, I agree He got beat by a prime Roy Jones right in 1993 long time ago and he was competitive

but he lost right Roy Jones wasn't technically good he was just athletic fast forward all these years later, Bernard Hopkins is able to school him. Why? Technique. His technique was immaculate. So, wait, one second. Roy Jones was technically not a good boxer. No, he wasn't. He made

some mistakes. Loads of them. What kind of... Roy Jones. If Roy Jones stopped off to be in Ruiz, he would have gone down as probably the greatest box of all time. Yeah, he would have, but not in terms of technical ability. Yeah, just from being athletic. So let's just get a runner on the streets and let him just fight. Couldn't box. Roy Jones. Roy Jones. Probably the best left hooking boxing. So is he on your list? No. There you go. You see. Case and point. I don't. He played a basketball game before going 12 rounds to defend his life. That's because he was that good.

He was an athlete. Because he was that good. But how many things did he do wrong? Would you tell on your first day in the gym a boy or girl, like, right, lead with an uppercut? No, you wouldn't. You'd never tell them to do that. That's what Roy Jones does.

That's what makes special fighters. Because you're trying to say, just do everything orthodox and same and from a book. No, no, no. The best fighters don't go from books. They go from what makes them very special, naturally. And Roy Jones could just do everything better than any of. anyone else. Except technique. Except just pure ability and technique. But what did he do well then

if it wasn't skill? He was fast. He could punch. You know, that's really it. He could reflexes. Let's define skill then, right? Because if you pick apart what skill is, for me, skill is actually a little bit of everything put together. So are we talking footwork? Are we talking speed? That's what obviously we're trying to build with the Frankenstein. Hopkins had a little bit of everything. No speed. He wasn't the fastest, but he wasn't the slowest at the same time. He could punch at 160, certainly can punch it that way. Take a good shot, great stamina, great technique, good defense, great body puncher. Oscar Delahoeia will attest to that.

So much good stuff. Bernard Hopkins has to be in that list. Does not have to be in the list. I've never ever heard anyone say Bernard Hopkins in terms of skill set. In terms of will and grit and learning on the job, obviously this guy was in jail when learning how to box in jail. So that, yes. But I've never ever heard anyone say anything apart from him being a good boxer and one of the best middleweights

and being one of the oldest champions, that's it. Okay, so him in his late 40s. Phenomenal. At light heavyweight, where he was undersized, because he wasn't a big light heavyweight, beaten men in their prime. Like, I'm sorry. And that's because of his skill you're saying.

That's because of his skill set. The right IQ. It's hardly because at 45, he's hardly going to have, you know, as much athleticism as someone 25. I think he just lived the life. And he did. He always was just speaking about living the life.

Going bed early, iced baths. He was almost ahead of everyone in terms of that. So I'll give you that. I'll give you that. In terms of skill set, it's absolutely nowhere, nowhere near Vasily Lomachenko, nowhere near. They call him The Matrix. Like, when you're being named after something like that, his skill set is just unlike anything I've ever seen. It's like the messy of boxing.

He was doing things in a ring that I had to rewind and see what he was doing. His feet were just sensational. And you talk about records, 379 or, no, 397 and 1 as an amendment. And that's where you hone your ground, your skill set. He was just on a different planet from anything I've ever seen. So much so now, people say other fighters coming through now are doing what Loma did. Jesse Bam Rodriguez has copied Loma. People now are saying, you are fighting like Lomachenko.

I've never seen a box of certain silkscare. So switch to Southport to Orthodox. You mentioned speed. You mentioned foot movement. His dad took him out of boxing to dance for two years, to dance just to get the feet. So he's like, okay, we need to find other ideas. And then you look at his training camp and he's doing things like juggling,

he's balancing on basketballs, just to be the most proficient of what he does. I've never seen a box with such skill set ever. And everything you outlined, everything you outlined, Tiefi and Lopez took a jab on him and that was it. And he'd no answer. And he was afraid. Who was afraid?

Loma against Tio. So did he kept them on the outside? Oh, did Loma not try and go for the kill in the latter rounds? Even though Tiafima Lopez was 20 pounds heavy than him. I don't know if he was 20 pounds heavier. He just kept them on the outside. He kept them on the outside.

Loma was absolutely terrified. Oh, I ain't going near him until I feel safe. Yeah, yeah, sorry, sorry. If that was anyone else. This isn't heart or resilience. Sorry, one second. This isn't heart and resilience we're discussing. We're talking skill set.

Yeah. If we're talking heart and resilience, then yeah, Loma's out of the door. Fair point. We were talking to skill set. So much skill, oh, I can't get past the jab. Did he? So much skill, I can't get past Loma's job.

Sorry, he didn't get past Tio's jab. No. He didn't get past Devin Haney's jab. He didn't get past the great Gilemo Rigondo's jab. Who was tiny, who ended up fighting the bandwashed? One second, he was tiny. One second, he was tiny. What about Devin to him?

What did Devin to him? Devin to Loma was the equivalent of Loma to Rorondo in terms of size. They were both still fighting that lightweight. They were both still fighting that lightweight. This feels a little bit like the absolutely not. I think Loma can safely take a spot in the top nine combined. Okay. Agreed?

Top nine? Yeah, top nine. Okay, we're giving that, but I'm still disagreeing with. Fine. So we'll keep him in his one. All right. But all Hopkins in low notes to be in. Just has to be.

So out of those two that we can eliminate. You might lose this one. My first pick is going to be Yusick. I don't think anyone's going to debate me on this one. Anyone got him on their list? No, but he is phenomenal. And I don't, he would be an honourable mention for me. Yeah, he's got to be more than an honourable mention.

I just think you're talking about amateur careers. I think he's 335 wins, maybe 15 or so losses. It is, that's exactly. How many weight divisions has he become undisputed in two? Two, but undisputed many times. Champion in maybe more than two? No, cruiser weight in heavy weight. Cruise are weight in heavy, okay, that's my other pick then.

I'm muddling them up. I don't think you can argue with this. No. No, Alexander is second absolute legend. And, you know, when we talk about fighters who do everything right, He literally does everything right He's not the biggest puncher But he can knock you out

He's fast He's great engine Great gas tank Footwork is amazing Speed is good Defence, never been down Great chin Literally what more could you want

Yeah He's probably the smallest heavy weight Yeah He's unified In terms of what So you've got to be skillful To get away from those Yeah

It's in the land of giants And he's beating people We just spoke about weight there With sort of Tio and Loma And stuff He's fighting Fury In Fury he's 40, 50 pounds Heavier than him

And he's able to use All that skill set To navigate that I think he's just phenomenal and he was on my list. Oh, he was on your list. Yeah, I think Alexander Usick is just, I don't know what it is. I can't even, I want to bat against you. But I can't bat against you.

I think Alexander Usi, in terms of skill, is just copy him. Like, if your fighter coming up, see what Usick does? Hence why AJ's gone to the camp. Yeah, no one's got an answer for him. Just try and learn from that. Please watch what he does and copy and paste. I don't like the copy and paste, though. I feel like when boxers try and emulate another fighter, it doesn't work because it's not natural to them.

No, you can't do it. No, Ousek is a one of a kind. He is a one of a kind. And I will agree with you on that. And I think he might disagree with me on this, but I don't care. Triple G, Gn, Gnadi Gullovkin. Triple G, when he wanted the box, he could box with the best of him. When he wanted the pressure, he had the footwork, he had the chin, he had the stamina, he had the power.

Triple Gigi Gennady Galovkin. But let's keep it to what this week is about, which is. boxing science. That's what I mean. No, but you can't say power. Yeah, yeah, you're grouping everything in. You're saying that's what I'm doing. Skill set.

Power isn't a skill set. It is, but not for today's debate. It's not here. It's not the sweet science of boxing. When your technique is that good, you have the power. Take away the power, the footwork, the speed. What skill does he have? Like, his IQ, his movement.

I'm not saying he doesn't have it. I'm saying for you, that's where you've got to base your facts on here. His IQ is great. His jab was tremendous. he could win a fight coming forward. He could win a fight in the back foot just by his jab. His jab caused whenever he decided to use it

caused so many people, so many problems. And this was the past as best Triple G as well. Who was fighting guys in their prime like Canello, like David Lemieux, when Triple G was definitely under his client. He wasn't fully in his prime. And jab, technique, everything. It was brilliant.

Yeah. He's very, very good. You know, I'm going to mention this guy. We've mentioned it before, he didn't make the list in terms of the other attributes, Floyd Money Mayweather. Yeah. In terms of skill set, I mean, come on. 50 and O.

So basically, you still, if he's been copying. You were copying his null, aren't you? No, but it's obvious. Come on. Is there anybody else that's 50 and O? No. I mean, Ucic, my other pick. Rocky Moisiano.

You can't beat them. You can't beat these people because they have too much skill. Because he's not strong. Well, at his weight division, no. What else is he doing? Boxing intelligence. Like, I just, for what? he's done and the way he evolved as well so initially he was a very aggressive fighter

pretty boyd very aggressive almost wanted to take your head off just sort of fighters coming up hungry that kind of okay I need to impress I need to get knockouts when the hand started to get bad it become okay let me just become one of the best defensive fighters of all time as well so you've now got to take me out and they couldn't take him out and that kind of filly shell starly had which everyone has tried to copy no one can they get tagged for some reason he was able to just not get tagged when he's basically showing you he's side saying hit me hit me hit me he hit me. Fast hands, fast feet, fast brain,

which is something you can't quite equate, right, because you don't see it, but you know his brains working you out all the time. And then, I know you mentioned Golofkin in terms of sort of the ability to absorb shots and give him. Floyd got hit by the hardest shot I've ever seen against Sugarmane, Shay Mosley,

went back to the corner, rebooted, came out, Br-R-R-L. Now, but Floyd has to be in, like, in terms of skill set. You can't, not, you can't say, but not

Huckins and not I don't have Floyd in my list my final my final fighter is someone who I believe if they'd have

fought obviously they were apart in terms of the decades they fought but if they had I think this guy would have won

and that is Sugar Ray Leonard Sugar Ray Leonard when he needed to like against Thomas Hurons when he was getting outboxed

in the first fight he could use his speed his footwork to get up close and turn it into a dog fight and when he wanted

to outbox you he could sugar Ray in his prime was phenomenal. He was. And the sweet science, speed, reflexes, everything. And you were thinking now,

you were thinking, you were thinking of Mayweather versus Leonard now. He's thinking of that fight right there. No, no, I'm thinking where not Sugar Ray gets in. I'm thinking where not Sugar Ray gets in. Maybe top five. Like, skill set, speed, yeah. Give him that fast. One of my favorite fighters, but I'm thinking just skill,

the feet and the hands. I am saying it. And that would probably be. my pick out of the three names I picked. Who's your third one then, Christ? That is Sugar. That is Hopkins, Triple G, Sugar Egg. Oh, you've had a stinker in this blueprint every episode.

Because I tink outside the box, Emily. The box is out of the window, mate. So my three, I did jump on the back of one of Emily's. So my three, Alexander Usick, Floyd Mayweather and Vasily Lomachenko. You went safety first. That's what we're trying to do. Safety, I've gone for the best first. The goat.

Who's the goat? That's what we're trying to deliver. I'm trying to pick Mount Rushmore or someone that can, you know what I mean? Let's just go safety. I'm trying to pick the best. Yes. This is Mount Rushmore. This is the Frankenstein of all boxes.

You feel I'm having Bernard Hopkins in my Frankenstein. Well, I mean, you could ask the question. I certainly did that. Yeah. I think who are my three. So I've given, we agreed on Floyd. Usick. And my third is Crawford.

I think you both forgotten. We did forget him. There we go. Both heads went back. I think we did forget him. She's done it again. I hate to admit you're right. It's just such a pain having to admit she's right.

a good shot. Yeah, it's a great show, isn't it? It's a great shout. It's a great shout. And I'll let you do the talking. Going through the weight classes. And he could,

whatever about Floyd, he seamlessly could switch it. Every fight. If they fought, I would give it to Crawford. So what would it cost? At 1 4.7? I'd give it to Terence Crawford.

It'd be a good fight. It would be a great fight. It's a good fight. It's a good fight. How do you manage to do this every week? Crawford's a good one. It's a good one. Nobody's done what he's done either.

No. Him and you see. same boat. They play chess together and everything. Do they? Yes. That's the mind.

That's the mind. That's what we're trying to. I think so as well. Which you didn't have either on your list? I had Usick. Neither of us had you. You said Floyd? Yeah, Floyd, Usick and Vasily Lamachenko.

I'm trying to give you a point out of it. I think he's changed his mind halfway through here. I gave you. Jay? No, he had it. Okay. So are we happy to get rid of Bernard? We are getting rid of Bernard.

Okay. We are happy to get rid of Triple G And because you mentioned Crawford I am happy to get rid of Sugar Ray Leonard and put Terrence Crawford Now have you just bowed down And just... I didn't bow down

I forgot completely about Crawford And I was like, yeah, actually she got me there Mm-hmm Sugar Ray Leonard is just gone like that One of the greatest... Terrence Crawford would be... But not for what we're trying to... This attribute.

And just everything Crawford does is just immaculate And you want to say about switch hitting You don't know is he a sell part of orthodox because you wouldn't know because you can do them both seamless and he can knock you out with either hand,

either stance. So yeah, Crawford, on the table there. How many weight divisions did he do? 140, 147, 147, 154 and 168. Yeah, he's the goat then. He's the guy. He is the guy.

So who are you getting rid of? Lemming go. Okay. So we're left with... He saw Tio's jab again. Rather. Rather. No ma'am can go.

Anyone got a strong who they want? Usik. Oh. So it's up to you, Emily. It's either me or Adda. I think a big man doing what he does is harder to do than a small man. I think when someone that's over 230 pounds can move the way Usook moves and do that and give that, that's significant weight advantages to Fury and to A.J and still box their heads off.

But he's not 230. Osook. Oskis two-three when he fights. He actually fights at 220. He comes in as a weight loss. Yeah, but he comes. Yeah, but he has to work for that. He's not naturally that.

No, it was naturally. The smaller guy, it was naturally. In fact, as an amateur, he was 160 pounds. Yeah. So he's so small compared to everyone. But walking around to be that big, so what he walks around now is about 245. To be that big and to be able to move the way he does and have the engine, as you say, he does. And to have that skill set after round, after round, after round, after round, after round,

after round, I think it's harder to do than to be 150, 160 at Crawfordis. Okay. It's a fair point. So it is up to you. Emily, we're a split. And you... Who have you got? I've got Crawford.

Okay, I've got Usick. So it's up to you. You are the... Either way I win. Either way... God, yes, you do, again. If they fought each other, what's a fair weight for both of them?

Why 60? Could Usick get down? 168? My argument for Usick as well, just over Crawford, is that is the amateur accolades to go with it. Yes. He has the Olympic gold medals.

He has the European Championship gold medals, world championship gold medals and you read out his amateur record it's not like 335 and 15 he's only trying to sway your tink no bigger title than the undisputed heavyweight title no bigger so let's let's play through if them two four at 168

all right hypothetically if we had an usek a 168 pounds and a crawford at 168 pounds I'm just saying a crawford wins point blank point blank profford wins I think he puts him on the jab I think his defense is on point I think Ousek would be constantly trying to figure out

problem but Crawford would give new problems. He's downloading what Crawford's doing. He's doing something else. I think that would be close, but I would give it to problem. I've seen Crawford hurt and down in the fight. I've never seen Usick hurt. Daniel Dubois. That wasn't a low blow. That was a low blow. That was a low blow. That was a low blow. That was a low blow. That was a low blow. Emily, you don't have one of those down there. I'm telling you know. I was going to say. I'm feeling it now. Every man in this room, every man in this room winters when they think about it.

Yeah. I've seen Crawford kind of do a bit of a wobbly layer. I've seen that Kavi Alaskas made him touch down with the glove. Usick, nothing. But that's because Ussick doesn't get hit. Yes. We don't know. Because he's so good skill set, he avoids it. Yeah, but if he did get hit, if him two fought and he did get hit, can he take it?

Producer Jay likes that one. I stand them. I'm sticking by Crawford, Usick. It doesn't matter, they're both my picks. So. This is a moral victory for Eaterman. No, I don't care. No, no, no.

You do need to battle it out. No, no, no. That's what I mean. Yeah, we need to know. Should we battle it out now then? Let's go. Crawford Ousset. You can bring your Crawford Actuette. I'm having to break Ussick's accolades. And I look at Usock's CV as well. Look at Crawford's CV. Can't even compare the two. Usick goes into everyone's backyard and beats them.

Crawford just has to go up the bus ride to where he's fighting these people. Usick goes to everyone's backyard. He went to Russia to be Gassiv. But that's not what really is to do with this skill set. It has a bit more pressure. Mental strength to go into that. Yeah, but we're not talking about mental strength. We're talking about the sweet science. No, the thing is, no, no, no. But when you start to get tired, and the mental strength, sometimes your skill set does go out of the window, to completely harness all of those just to be able to focus on one thing,

I think everything comes into consideration. Like Crawford can do exactly the same. And through more weight divisions. And through more weight divisions. And through more weight divisions when you're going up six pounds. Where they are more skilled. What will rely on the power? When you're going up six pounds.

Yeah. You're going up six pounds. It doesn't matter. Literally, I could eat a meal right now and be six pounds heavier. Go up 40 pounds. Well, Crawford nearly did. Go up 50. No, one fight.

32 pounds. He's got one diet. He's fighting Kennedy. The start of his career. Start of his career. So he started career. He's 135. He went up to 168.

Ussick started his career. Mm-hmm. And he's fighting guys that are 280. Yeah. 280,000. And there is my last. Fury isn't. He's not the quickest.

Fury isn't. He's not the quickest. Fury is one of the most nimblest heavyweights we've ever seen. In terms of boxing. Nimbless. Nimbless. Fury is phenomenal. Fury is six foot eight.

Mm-hmm. 289 pounds. Does he get an honorable mention? Nah. The skill? Nah. For a big man. For a big man.

For a big man. For a big man. He'd be like a lot of that. He causes people problems. Yeah. It costs people problems. But I stand by Crawford because you've an enormous target to hit. You're not going to miss a 280 pound man.

And you've got enormous target that wants to hit your back. Yeah. And all you have to do is take a step to decide. Oh, that easy. We have to decide. The Frankenstein part can't be a big decision. No, it's Emily. It's one brain.

Although we do have left side, right side brain. We could split decision this. I think we have to split decision this. I am standing by Terrence Crawford. You didn't even pick Crawford. You're standing by a pick you didn't even have. He had a brain part. This makes sense.

You didn't even pick him. Need her to do. And me and you boat when Emily said it. Oh, yeah. Usick was my pick and I chose him. You literally let your pictures fly off the table and you're arguing for a pick you didn't even choose. It's the small wins. And I'm going to stand by.

Small wins. Oh. This is very important now, Emily. This was like a soap like East Enders. We hear the credits roll by now. Do you know what his standards is? Yeah, he knows he's standards. He knows his standards.

Okay, guys, the attribute is the sweet science of boxing. The Frankenstein goat of this attribute is going to be. Usik. Oh! Yeah, ma! Yeah! All right, we go. Final round.

We've got a nice hot take. to debate, Emily, I believe you have a hot take for us. Yep, I'm going to put to the table that influencer slash crossover boxing is bad for the sport. Very rare, I agree with you, if you do agree, but I'm going to say it is awful for the sport. It is awful for the sport. It's actually insane to me that we have fighters who they couldn't even throw a, if they fought a heavy bag, the heavy bag would win. But yet they are making, they are making hundreds of thousands of pounds. fighting misfit shows, doing these silly little, I'm fighting this celebrity and this,

not and the other. It's like, no, you're a boxer, fight a real boxer. Don't fight someone. You don't watch it, then. I don't watch it. I don't approve of it. You don't watch crossover. So when someone from non-boxing goes into boxing, you don't watch it, just to we're clear. Yes. I do watch it because I'm a YouTuber, it's my job. No, it's not necessarily. So you, not necessarily. If it's, if something's bad for you, don't watch it. You watch it because there's an invested interest. I'll talk about it. Did you enjoy Fury in Garnu? No.

Did you enjoy Fury and Garno? I enjoyed the undercard because it was real boxing. Did you enjoy Tyson Fury versus Francis Ingano? Be honest. The fight, no. It was awful. It was the only member of moment in that fight was when Fury got dropped by in Ghani. Was you excited by it?

No. I was excited by it. It was a different between enjoyment and is it bad for boxing? No, but there's, yeah, but. So your point is bringing new viewers, right, to the sport? My point is, in some of these crossover fights, there is some sort of enjoyment level, too. it. I saw the heavyweight champion of the world

get put down by a UFC guy and I was like, well, this is actually quite enjoyable. Oh yeah, for 10 seconds, all of 10 seconds. That was the best 10 seconds I've ever seen in Tyson Fury's career and now it's a farce again. Yeah? What is? The Inganu Fury fight. You were 10 seconds where Fury was down in round number three and you're like,

ah, back in a no, no, but the fight was close. It was close because Fury turned up. It was close. To the point where some people said Ingano won. No, he didn't win. No, but was it close? It was competitive. It was competitive enough. Which is bad for boxing because If someone can come in from MMA and do that to a boxer, that's not good for our sport. But what it did do, and I think this is the point maybe someone getting,

generate a lot of money, which has a trickle-down effect. So all the people in the undercard got paid because the headline act is so big. Numbers are so big. There's a trickle-down effect to everyone on the card. If it was a full card of crossover boxing, I'm not fan of it. But if there is a fight that can garner more interest and more eyeballs, which equal more money, then the fighters in the undercard are getting a bit of upside as well to it. You would say that, but do you remember the first real kind of influencer boxing show to ever happen?

It was, I think KSI's brother, it was a Jake Paul show. You, Devin Haney on the undercard, didn't do him any favours. You'd Billy Joe Saunders on the undercard. Guess what? Didn't do him any favours? So I disagree with that. Why do you think Devin Haney any favours? Do you think Devin Haney's following group?

No, because they're both in Boren fights. How do you know this? You don't know this for a fact. How do you think these numbers might have grown? He got paid. He was on the card. Anything could have happened. And the only thing people talked about was, blimey, that was born.

That's what you really want to be talked about, don't you don't want someone saying, you see that Devon Hainty guy in the undercar? It was amazing. Instead, it's, do you see that, Devon Hey, I don't want to see him again? That's what it was. So it can have a trickle down effect. You say that. They were all heavyweights on that show.

So, of course, we're going to see knockouts. But if you had just say, like, two out and out boxes on the undercar, it's not going to, it's going to hinder them again. I think when Iibbles, like, the biggest fight that's ever happened in this crossover madness nonsense, right? It's Jake Paul Mike Tyson. You did just see the word nonsense. It is nonsense. So it's nonsense, but it's not bad.

It's not bad. Because then the eyeballs, it trickled down to Amanda Serrano, Katie Taylor, fighting in front of 35 million people. Why are you putting that in the same category? Because they were on the same card. So they were chief support to that. So they automatically, by chance, whatever, got so many eyeballs on them because most people wanting to see the craziness in the main event.

I think some of that craziness helps legit boxing. I still do believe it generally puts eyes onto legit boxing. I think people get paid. All of a sudden, Jake Paul's been able to. to build MVP promotions because of that. And now all of a sudden, all these females that weren't getting paid and now signed to MVP off the back of a crossover coming into boxing. He's created a whole thing where he's on now ESPN, Sky Sports,

the zone had a deal with him because he is a YouTuber that for some reason saw a gap and that gap now was giving female fighters a presence that they never had before. Well, I'm glad that they have that presence. That wasn't because a crossover. That was a gap because real promoters weren't taking female boxing as serious as he is. Yeah, but that's got nothing to do.

the fact It is. It's not crossover. It's not crossover. It's not. It's not. No,

because they were only getting the headline because he was headlining as a crossover. They wouldn't have got the eyeballs. Like Netflix are never going to take that. They wouldn't have got the eyeballs if Jake Paul hadn't

have given it to them, irrespective of the crossover first. Jake Paul is the reason the females have the limelight now. Who is a YouTuber? Yeah, but we're talking about the crossover is crossover boxing bad for the sport.

Yeah, but he is like him and KSI are the faces for me of crossover boxing. So I'm saying if Jake Paul didn't get into crossover boxing. Maybe we wouldn't see the females getting the attention they're getting right now. Well, I counter that because Amanda Serrano and Katie Taylor sold out MSG long before this. So they had eyes on them long before this. No, no, no, not true.

Not true. Not true. No, no, no, no, not true. Not true or not true. Katie Taylor, sorry, Amanda Serrano wouldn't have got that fight if Jake Paul wasn't promoting her to push that fight. Remember, Jake Paul was her promoter sitting right next to Eddie Hearn on that MSG card. She wasn't getting pushed to fight Amanda Serrano.

no one to put the money up. Jake Paul said, we'll do it. A YouTuber. No, but my point is, right, you were saying they got all the eyes on them and stuff like that. Did they not have all the eyes on them at that historic first fight in MSG, which happened in 2022? And who was a part of it? That's my point. The part of that, the portion of that was who? Yeah, but we're going off topic here, guys. We are. No, we're not because a YouTuber who's at crossover fights has been able to do that. Because he's a businessman and he saw a gap in the market. That's not. No, no, that's too easy to do.

because every business maker come in and do that and they would not get in the ring and fight. But they don't care about it. What do you mean you don't care about it? They don't care about female boxing. He's gone, gap in the market, I'll make some money there. Let's give them all a platform. Let's have this niche that no one else is doing.

And he wouldn't have been able to do. I don't think he would have been able to do that unless he had a crossover fight to do that. I don't think that's a business standpoint. You're saying one doesn't happen with out of the other. Yes. I completely disagree with that. And again, you're saying that's helping. Yeah, I think he could have done that regardless of whether he fought or not.

I completely think, because he's a promoter as well at the end of the day. It's not just the fact that he headlined against Mike Tyson. I also think that there are some brilliant fighters up and down the UK all over America who fight on these small hall shows who absolutely deserve, if nothing else, a major promoter, can't get even a look in. And then you've got guys with literally two left feet who are, you know, YouTubers, and there's nothing wrong with that. And what are those YouTubers doing that the fighters that you're mentioning aren't doing? Marketing themselves outside the race. learn from them.

Don't critique them. Learn from the fact these guys have become self-promoters and you're sitting on your hands waiting for a promoter to do it. It takes away from the skill of boxing. Exactly. No, no, no, no, it does,

but they're willing to do the hardest sport in the world. So regardless of that these guys haven't got a skill. I'd go and do it if you're going to pay me. Some of them are. Some of them are the top levels are, yes, the ones on those early misfits cars aren't getting paid. They're taking the risk.

A lot of them are like, I'm a celebrity or something like that. My career is hit the skins, what lady, okay, I'm going to do this. Yeah, I think there's money because they've got a following. We might not know who they are. I know, I covered misfits. I did it.

Remember, I covered misfits for two years. I think it sets an unreal expectation of money as well with this influence. Because they're coming in, like you say, they're getting paid double, triple what a real fighter would get. And then these real fighters are like, well, why am I not being paid that? They don't understand the correlation between they are selling more tickets. They are selling more pay-per-views because they do work outside. the gym. The boxers, real boxers, are only concentrating on going to the gym, learning how to fight,

honing their craft. What's the hardest skill to do at the two of those, do you think? It's one sense. The hardest skill, the promotion of the boxing. It's boxing, definitely. That's it then. So if I'm a boxer, I already do the hardest thing. The easiest thing is to do the outside stuff.

The hardest thing is to get in the ring. Yeah, but a boxer, learn that part. That part's easier. Let me just count it out, right? So when you say promoting, there are plenty of ways boxers, real boxers can promote themselves, They can do YouTube, they can do more interviews, they can do a lot of things. They choose not to. Some of them choose not to, yeah.

But you have these misfits guys who are going and they are literally turning an attitude error, WWE. That's crazy as well. You see them come up and they're deliberately trying to be antagonistic. They're deliberately trying to just get all eyes for the wrong reasons, mind you, on this. So what good is that? I would say three out of the top 10 most wealthiest boxes of all time have done that. I think Floyd has done that, and they've learned from Floyd. I think Tyson Fury to Nick.

Tyson Fury came to one of his press conferences at a Batman uniform and started throwing stuff at Klitschko in a Batman so where do you think they've learnt this from? The pay-per-view stars get it. They get it, but that's what, maybe 3% of all fighters are pay-per-view? 99% of the boxing that happens

is pure boxing. It's a 99.9.9. We're upset about the point one because they're making a noise. And if I'm a boxer, I'd be thinking it's making so much noise. I need to make, not copy it, I get, you should still do your boxing. But I think you can learn from it.

I think you can learn from the fact that Jake Paul now is making more money, was made more money than most boxes to ever walk planet Earth. How? By his promotion, self-promoting. It's got its pros and commas. But what about the fighters? The real fighters are fighting under Jake Paul's undercard. He's giving them opportunities to fight.

I'm not saying about the real fighters like Katie Tain and Amanda Ranos Rano. No, I'm not talking about those notes. No, I'm talking about the fighters. Ask Ellie Scott me right now. she's mad about Jake Paul being across over boxing. I'm not talking about the fighters like Anthony Joshua who say, fight Jake Paul. That's not a damage here.

That's a bad look. It's a bad look for... Bad look for someone to call me. One second. One second. One second. You put across my table, Martin McCode for 10 million. I don't know.

Jili Zhang for five. Jake Paul 40. What? I am taking Jake Paul's head out in a sparring session for 40 million. But he didn't do that. He didn't. So he made him look bad, right? Which is the point of this debate.

AJ went supersonic in America and then you can have a real fight against Tyson Fury the Gypsy King for 100 million. It didn't do him any favours. Legacy-wise, what's that going to do? Legacy-wise, think of it like this. Muhammad Ali fought the MMA guy in Japan.

No one even remembers it. That was an exhibition, though. This was a real fight. Tyson Fury fought in Garnu. Oseek's fight and Rico. We see him. Floyd Mayweber fought forever. Right, guys, this is my hot take.

Okay. I think adding might have convinced me out of my hot take. Boxing, like, is flying at the moment. There was a time when it wasn't flying where, if it was only YouTube fights, I'll go, boxing's in trouble right now. But in the same year that AJ thought Jake Paul, there's been so many undisputed fights. Like, boxing's okay. Boxing's in such a good place where I don't think it damages boxing to the point where

no one's now tuning into boxing. We've got Bivulberturbia. We've got a new in Akatani. We've got Crawford-Kinello. we've had all these fights. Ryan Devon thought... Literally, all the fights you could want, boxing's giving you.

This is because promoters are working together and they're fighting on the same network is nothing to do when Influencer Boxing. If Influencer Boxing was gone, boxing would still be in a great place because of that. Yeah, what I'm trying to say, is it damaging boxing, though? I think it is.

I think you've always got... Because you have all these influencer boxers thinking they can do it, making a show of it, doing these silly shows, and then you're doing crossovers, and then a fighter, as I said, two-time heavyweight champion

oh no yeah he went six minutes with Jake Paul that's what I remember if that's what you remember I think that's your problem as opposed to a boxing problem like if I remember AJ Clitchco I remember AJ O'Sick I don't remember

AJ JetPaul I just think some money grab and just again if someone offers me 40 million to fight as you say a YouTuber I'm like I think you'll be silly not to take that money I think you almost be like what and also

Kenella was going to fight him that was fat Giovanni Davils was going to fight him. These were all fights that were going to. So everyone's basically saying, oh my God, I'll take that money because it's this easy money. You're giving me free money right now.

You're giving me free money. How could I turn it down? I haven't you be silly to say no to that. And Kenello chose the legacy. And he fought Terrence Crawford instead. No, no, no. Kenello didn't chose a legacy. Kenedo chose more money.

Because Turkey went in and said, here's more money. And Lex. Right, Canello. Am I wrong? I think we're all right in our own little ways. I think it's good and bad, but more it doesn't matter.

than it does. That's me. I agree. I think it's good and bad, but I think it's more it, as long as real fights are happening, and we are getting these real stadium fights, and they're incredible and they're big,

if that doesn't happen, an influencer fight is taken over to the point where we're saying our best fighters fight these influence instead of fighting the names you say, then I think we're in big trouble. But as long as we are seeing the fights we want to see, once in a while,

the fight wants to make a couple of quid. Finally gone then, so you're not fan of Imphins of boxing at all. No, definitely not. Okay. Are you going to cross over one, so you're not watching Usset Rika? No interest in Usset RICO? Just because I said, I was asking.

I was asking. Are you interested in it? Yes, I will be watching Usset ball. Because when I'm not interested in something. It's so easy for me that I'm watching it. When I'm not interested in something. It grabs the imagination, right? Even though it's ridiculous and Mike Tyson and Jake Paul,

you're going to watch it. Yes. So. It's my job. No. Stop that. Yeah. Regardless of being a job, you watch it.

Yeah. Which means what then? It means I have a somewhat of an interest in it, but I don't approve of it. This is interesting. I like Alexander Ousek. I like Anthony Joshua. I will watch them, even if I wasn't, you know, working on them on a YouTube end. But that doesn't mean I like it.

If KSI versus Jake Paul was made, would you watch it? Yeah. Wait a minute. I am a YouTuber. I'm a YouTuber. If I was... I thought that was interesting this. If I was...

For a YouTube channel, yes. if I wasn't. But that particular fight, KSI, Jake Powell, if I wasn't a YouTuber, no, I wouldn't watch it. Liar. Liar. No.

Liar, liar. Pants on fire. And that's the final round. All right, there you go. That's the final bell. That was a nice heated debate. I love those. It's good, right?

It's good. It's good. It's interesting to see what you people at home have to say as well. Get involved in the comment section. And as always, don't forget, like, share, subscribe. All that good stuff. It all helps.

We'll catch you on the next episode of the Punch Perfect podcast. Thank you for listening to this latest episode of the Punch Perfect podcast. on BBC Sounds. Listen up, you can download BBC Sounds from the app store and subscribe to the Punch Perfect podcast where you can listen to all the series. The Punch Perfect podcast,

engineering the Ultimate Fighter, is an Insanity Studios production for BBC Radio 5 Live and BBC Sounds.