5 Live Boxing with Steve Bunce - Remembering Ali: Gene Kilroy on the man behind the legend

Episode Date: June 2, 2025

Nine years on from Muhammad Ali’s death, Buncey sits down with his close friend and longtime business manager, Gene Kilroy, to hear first-hand stories about the man behind the legend. From their first meeting in Germany in 1960 to the way Kilroy has upheld Ali’s legacy, they revisit some key moments from an extraordinary life.

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BBC Sounds, music, radio, podcasts. This is five-live boxing. On June 3rd, 2016, Muhammad Ali passed. He remains one of the most recognizable names and faces in the world, a sporting and cultural icon. In 1960, won a gold medal at the Rome Olympics. Glory in the professional business followed. He was the unbeaten heavyweight champion of the world when he decided to fight the American government. He refused to be inducted to fight in the Vietnam War.

He was cast into exile, banned from boxing, banished from society. He got his license back three years later, and he came back bigger than ever in the 70s. He dominated the sporting landscape across the 1970s. He met and beat the Giants, Joe Frazier and George Foreman, the thriller in Manila, the rumble in the jungle. Muhammad Ali was the most famous person on earth. And few people, none living, knew Ali better than his business manager and loyal friend Gene Kuroi. Kierre was known as the facilitator.

He made the impossible happen all over the world, by the way. Kewa was often there when Ali needed him most. The golden days, the darkest nights. Kewroi keeps the Ali flame burning bright. But this special episode, I flew to Las Vegas to sit with

Gene Kuroi in the privacy of his home, to hear the stories, to understand the man, and to share his memories of Muhammad Ali. I'm Steve Bunce, and this is a very special edition of Five Live Boxing. When did you first meet, Muhammad? Where was that, and when was that, Gene?

The 6th Olympics. I was playing sports in Munich, Germany, in the service, and they needed someone to sign the pay vouchers. So they called me and asked me this, who would I recommend? I recommend it myself. So when I went in there, we had a guy by the name Alan Hudson,

on the Army boxing team. He was a tough... And he fought in Chicago. He fought this young kid Cassius Clay. Oh, really? Okay. And Cassius Clay whipped him to death. And I said, I gotta meet this Cassius Quake. So when I went there, he was so charming and nice.

And I remember I'm walking down the street with him in Rome. And we had money, we got paid. They didn't even get stants in those days. And a guy came up, he said, do you have any money? any money and he pulled out he had a roll he had a five and three ones and the guy said you have any money he said yeah you're three dollars I said cashes you only have eight you gave him three he said he tests at me if he's a lion he's gonna have to answer to God I don't have to answer to God so that was it you

know and and I said there's a lot of depth here then I came out and I went with the Philadelphia Eagles as an executive he went in the boxing we always say in touch. Yeah. And then when he was in exile, I got him to do the college lecturing. He was one of the most in demand, demanded speakers in the college doctor. Everybody wanted to go there. He'd get up, who's the champ of the world? The Ali, Oli, that was him. He always was a good, kind person, nice to everybody, and George took that show and put it on the road. So what fight was your first fight with Ali where you're part of the camp? You're not advising him, you're not a friend of his

He was still a friend. But you're actually alongside him. I wasn't with him on payroll till after he came out of Exile. Okay. And we built a training camp and the first fight I think was Chivalo. I was worked with MGM in New York at the foreman fight, the quarry fight. He hung out with me in my office. We always were together.

And when he comes back, that's a different fighter than the one before Exile. It's a different Ali. He's a bit slower. He's a bit older. He's a bit more. entertaining. But some people might think he's not as good as he was pre-60s, but he's a bigger name. Okay. Now, I was blessed to be around him in the morning, no one around him and I, and I'm talking. I say, Ali, who would win Cassius Clay or Muhammad Ali? He said, Muhammad Ali was more

scientifically, more wiser, no wild stuff, you know, just pick his shots, move in, you know. And that was Ali. So he thought that Ali would beat, he thought the 70s version would beat the 60s version. Yeah. Do you agree? Yeah. You've got to agree.

Wiser. On those fights, there's highs and there's lows. I think that's fair to say. There's great weeks. There's great fights and then there's bad fights. There's fights with your ringside, coughing up your guts and spitting up blood and in trouble, and then there's fights when it's pure glory.

What are some of the memories of just being on the road of it? Because I know he wore you out, you told me once. You said to me, Steve, he wore me out. The real Muhammad Ali was a shy, humble guy. You know, I said to him one time, what do you think he accomplished in life? He looked me dead in the eye. He said, would you believe that Joe Lewis knows my name?

Now, he said, in Louisville, Kentucky, we had a pole. No celebrities came by Louisville. Yeah, that's true. Joe Lewis was there, and he leaned against the pole. My dad would take me over that pole. See that pole? Joe Luce leaned against that pole. But I was accepted by his mom and dad, his brother, his family, you know, the nation of Islam.

Jim Brown told me, you are a very unique guy. You're a white man accepted by the nation of Islam. Now my theory is this, whether you like it or not. If Ali didn't accept Islam, he might have been cleaning bus stations in Louisville. really know. It gave him a whole new life. So, Gene, why is it this growing entourage that Muhammad had, surrounded by the nation of Islam, why is it then that you were so close to them and you still support his brother now, if you don't mind me embarrassing you? I know you still support his brother now. You

were involved with the funerals of both their parents. Yeah, a pallbear for both. Yeah, called for Saksar. So, how does that happen then, Gene? I mean, I still find that Oh, I still find that strange. At that time, Herbert Mohamed came to the training camp one time, and I'm sitting there with eight black people. He said, Judge, he called everybody Judge. Judge, could I talk to you?

Sure. We go outside. He said, how do you feel out there with all black people and you? I said, I don't look at it. He said, oh, Judge, I couldn't have me sitting there with all white people and me. But it's a different ballgame, you know? My mother in 1971, I introduced Ali.

So she told Muhammad, my son has a lot of respect for you. Muhammad said, I'm just another end trying to get bigger. And she said, hold it right there. Don't use that word around me. He looked at her. He said, Gene, now I know where you got your guts from. Here's a woman, five foot one, a hundred pounds, tells me off. I wasn't raised like that, you know.

Gene, I agree with that. But you also, and again, I'm going to embarrass you again, Gene. I'm going to embarrass you again. I know that you supported so many of the inner and the outer circle, including Herbert Muhammad, towards it. You were a benefactor. You looked after an awful lot of people. I was an awful lot of years.

I was dead now. And it's right. Look at, if I took you to the mall over here and walked through the mall, no one would bother us. If I took Frankie Lyle, a former Light Heavyweight champ going through the mall, all of a sudden you see story detects following us. You know, there is prejudice in the world. I didn't look at it.

I don't have any prejudice in me. I want to talk about a couple of fights, Gene. I'm going to really keep it simple. What's your best memory, but then also, secondly, what's your worst memory of ringside? Best memory would be this. You'd have to say he won the title in 64. and then came back in 74 and won it. So that has to be a great memory.

But I wanted him to stop right after the Zaire Africa fight. After the Rumble? Yeah. Elijah Muhammad wanted him to stop. But he liked the crowd. He liked the, you know, the smelling of the paint, the rurring of the crowd. He liked that.

Wow. And then the fight Joe Buggner, Kuala Lumpur, 120 degrees. Yeah, yeah, listen. $3 million. He said, I mightn't hire Joe Buggner for a spawning partner. I'm getting $3 million to fight this guy. He liked Joe Bouglin, didn't he?

Yeah. And then he announced over there, all my friends in London, you root for your man now, but after the fight you come back to me. And that's exactly what happened, because Joe liked him as well. So what about your worst side with R. Lee, G. Which was it? When the jar got broken. Kenyon Norton?

Yeah. He didn't train for the fight. He got the jaw broke the second round. Kenny said no. And then I called the San Diego charges and they send the doctor to me and we went to the hospital, a plastic surgeon for broken jaw. I didn't know that. So we go in there and I remember the doctor came in. He said, we're going to operate on you, sign the papers.

And he left the room and all he fell asleep. I signed the papers. He came back in here. But this was, you know, and then he said, I got to get him back. And then Kenny Norton called him, wanted to see Ali in the hospital. And I said, he's coming in and looked like the hunter, going to stand over the animal he just killed. He said, I got something for him. And when Kenny Norton came in, Ali starts telling Kenney, I never want to fight you again.

Ooh, you hit so hard. Oh, you hit so hard. And Kenny was doing, yeah, thank you. And he left. He said, I got him. There'll be a rematch. And then the rematch, he trained. Like, he never trained for that rematch.

Like he told me this. If he would have had the Deer Lake training camp. Before that fight. Before the first Fraser fight. He'd a walk through Fraser. Because that was what he needed. He needed a training camp and a spy barnum. His own training camp.

And it was all the tax write-off. He couldn't believe that stuff. Gene, let me ask you this. Towards the end of the career, the incredible career, was it hard to be ringside? Even if he was winning fights, you knew how much. Like the friend of him in the middle must have been terrible for you. The training is bad.

The training is bad. You know, getting hit all the time. The night of the fight isn't that bad. You know, but he loved it. He loved it and loved it. He couldn't wait. He was standing in front of the mirror with his belly down and look at himself and say,

I look so good, don't I? Don't I look good? He loved himself. But you wanted him to quit, certainly after something. some of those last fights. In the Bahamas, he called me, told me he's gonna fight. I said, I'm not with you this fight, don't do it.

Really? So I call Angelo, Angelou, don't have him do it. Okay, but he did it, you know. Did you not go to the... No, I flew down. He invited me down, I went down, I stayed with him in the room and all, but he couldn't even run. He couldn't do nothing after that fight.

And I remember he told it to press, all you press now. If you wanna travel all over the world, you gotta be work, correspondence. Boxing isn't going to go. Because I'm not going on a road anymore. So, Gene, at the end, once he decided to walk away, that must have been a great release.

Oh, it was great. But he was sick and he had that Parkinson's. Now people tell me, and I would be with him and people say, he's punchy. That's from boxing. And I mean there's people that the Pope had Parkinson's. Janarino had Parkinson's. Never boxed. They never boxed.

So what isn't from boxing? People just get it. They don't know why. Did you sit around as a group and talk about it? How was that? How was... Oh, I'm going to back it up a little bit. Please. Dick Gregory came around us and he would make juice.

The dancer, Dick Gregory, yeah. And all he would, we'd run in the morning, three miles to his exercise, and here's Dick Gregory with this juice. Bananas, strawberries, oranges, apples, apples grounded up with ice. Now that tastes, but that's all sugar. So all he, I can't understand why he's doing all this work and he's not losing any weight.

So one day I catch him, his eyes went like, and I called the doctor and the doctor came up and he checked his blood. He was getting ready to have a diabetic coma. His whole family would die from the fruit drinks. Yeah. So then when Dick Gregory would come come in with the juice, she said, leave it there, I'll drink it later.

And as soon as he left, they'd go down to the toilet. Once he had retired, that's when you become, I don't mind embarrassing. The king of executive hosts here in Las Vegas. Yeah, well, you're the king. You're the king. And then you're collecting him on planes for different casinos and bringing him in. Yeah, listen, I'm an educated guy. You know, I'm not some guy who just showed up on the door stuff.

Was a Shishine boy or something. You know, but I had good connections. Everybody loved me. And my loyalty. The guy told me, if you looked up loyalty in the dictionary, you'd see your picture. That's what it's about. I don't lie to people.

I don't want them to lie to me. If a guy would lie to you, he'll steal from you. And lots of people over the years did try and steal from Maui. Oh, it's unbelievable. Oh, it's unbelievable. They come up with their rented Cadillacs, their knockoff briefcases. With their plans?

Yeah. That happened quite a lot, didn't it? Yeah. So, Gene, the other thing I want to ask you about is that, incredible situation where through Custamato, Mohammed meets a 14 year old Mike Tyson. People forget about this. Took place in the 70s sometime, early ages.

I got a call we're in New York City from a reform school. They say, we got kids out here. They never see anybody. And I had the movie of the greatest with me. I said, you have a protector? Oh, we do. I said, OK. So come on, Mama, we went out there and we showed them the movie.

And there must have been about maybe 80% black, maybe 15% Hispanic, and 5% white. Crids screaming all over. And about two months later, three months later, I got a call from Cusamatta, who I adored. He said, Jean, lightning struck twice. I got a young kid here who's going to be the heavyweight champ. He knows you. I said, he knows me.

What does he know me? Put him up on. Hey, man, this is Mike Tyson. You came to my reform school. When I seen Ali, I wanted to be a boxer then. I just said, that's what I want to be. He said, but why did Ali have a white boss? I said, it's not a white boss.

We're a good team. Yeah, that's right. Just like me and Cuss, we're a good team. And that's the same thing. What would Mike Tyson been without customer? The best B2B marketing gets wasted on the wrong people. So when you want to reach the right professionals, use LinkedIn ads. LinkedIn has grown to a network of over 1 billion professionals,

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Listen wherever you get your BBC podcasts. Gee, let me ask you a question. There's a famous picture, the one I always use, which is up on the wall behind us, the view in the corner, has George Foreman's on the floor at the Rumble in the Jungle in 1974, or Ali's looking down at him,

you're looking at Ali and looking down. It's probably impossible for us to go back 50 years. But can you remember what was going through your mind is you're standing up, holding onto the road. And then I was the first one in the ring. Then all the crazies started to come in. And then Ali said, I'm sitting down. So they're announcing, Oli, fainted.

You holler, go ahead, you know. But then later in the dressing room, I said to Ali, Ollie, you had him going down. You could have threw another three punches. He said he had enough. He had enough. And then you remember George how George hollered. The ropes were no good.

The mattress, the pad was too soft. His corner let him down. I was drug. They paid, poison him. Everything went wrong. But then Ali gave him humility, and he became humble. And that's why he got... He took Ali's show on the road.

meeting with people, seeing people. You told me a story once, and I want you to tell it again, about when you leave Zaire, and you managed to get a copy of the fight to play on the plane. Tell me this story, because this is just ridiculous.

I love this story. I went to Hank Schwartz. I said, I need a copy of that fight. You got it. So we get on the airplane, had American Airlines flying us back. And they had those cassettes. I said, do you mind playing this?

Ali looked at, he said, wow, this is unbelievable. How did you do it? He said, I should even ask you. I know you get it done. So basically, this plane's packed going home. Leaving Kinshaas to flight to Paris, if I'm not the state. Two days later. Two days later.

Going into Chicago. And he's never seen the fight, Ali, because obviously there's no replay. There's no YouTube. And he's now watching the fight. Gene, he must have stood up and started throwing punches. He must have. I got him here. Look at, look at, look at, look at, I'm telling them off.

I'm telling them off. Look at it. Come on, George, show me something. I was right next to him. And this is a personal question. I can ask you this as I've known you 25 years. Does it sometimes annoy you that you get overlooked when people talk about mom?

I don't care. Listen to me. Honestly. I mean, I wasn't there for publicity. I was there for him looking around the people in Ollie's camp. Like Elijah Mama told me, what is your toughest job? I said, if he went into the man's room and came out, he had two new friends. Now I had to run them away.

They want to be his new best friends. You know, and now I'm the bad guy. Marmad's funeral, obviously, was a very long and sad, sad process. And when you came back here to your house after that funeral, and you look up at this glorious war and look at all these pictures, what do you think, Gene? You know, here's a, here's the thing. I would go to Louisville and leave with him.

I'm out the airport by myself. And some sports reporter came up. Jing Kura, yeah. He said, what did you think at a funeral? I said, it was nice. How do you feel? I said, this is the first time I'm leaving Louisville without Ali. But my memories will always be with him.

When was the last time you were back in Louisville? Because, because, because, Rockman still lives there, doesn't he? His brother. Yeah, Rockman lives there. I went there. I went to see Rockman and we visit his mom and dad's grave. We visit Maham's grave.

Number one. Muhammad would want to be buried with his mom and that, not by himself. He talked one time about being buried at the training camp. I said, not, your mom and dad. But, you know, I know if he had his choice, right there with his mom and dad. So, Jim, we know that when Muhammad sat down at press conferences, he could find poems and he could find the right words. But he was different, was he different away from there?

Or was that just, did he grow into that character? No, he grew into it. into it. Now let me, you ask me a question, what are some of my memorable monuments? I told the story about the little boy with the cancer, right? You heard that you don't need that again, do you? No, tell it again because I know, I've written it, but please tell the story, Gene. We're at the training camp in Deer Lake, Pennsylvania, and there's a little boy sitting there. Hot summer day, he has a skull cap on a sweater, every sort of. He's with his dad. I say, how you doing good? He said, this is my son, and he's pretty sick.

like to meet Muhammad. I said, okay, come back. I go back. All he's done work at his dad, I, and Muhammad sitting there on the couch. And Mahm said, why do you have this big, heavy hat on? He said, I have leukemia. I have cancer. And Muhammad looked at the kid, hugged the kid, I'm going to beat George Foreman, and you're going to beat cancer. And the voice said, I hope you're right. So I got my camera and I took a picture. Boom, boom, boom. So I got the father. his address. I blow up the picture 8 by 10. And I had Muhammad sign it. Don't forget, I'm going to beat George Foreman, you're going to beat cancer. God bless you, Muhammad Ali. So about three days later, I got a call from the father. He said, my son is at the University

of Pennsylvania hospital. He's not going to make it. He said, okay. So I told all we did world work in the morning, 5.30. So I told Ali, he said, well, let's start down. You know, the hospital room, yeah, everything. But we drive down on the way down, he's talking about you don't know how lucky you are, your kids are all doing good and all. And we get in the hospital, and when we hit the lobby, we started to get mob. We head right to the elevator, 8th floor at 831, go in the room. Here's the little boy laying in the bed. He looked at Muhammad, big blue eyes. He said, Muhammad, I knew you would come. And Muhammad would over, hug the boy and kiss him. He said, don't forget what I told you, I'm going to be George Foreman,

and you're going to be cancer. He said, no, Muhammad, I'm going to meet God, and I'm going to tell him I know you. And I look around there, tears in my eyes, his eyes, and we leave. There's no talking on the way back. And then about a week later, I got a call from his dad. The boy passed away, thanks for coming down. I told him, he said, I don't want him. You go over. And they had in the casket, they had the picture. So I witnessed that, and I witnessed taking him to Shriners Hospital in Philadelphia. Little kids with no arms, no legs. He would spend time with them, and he would say, I'm going to go there, but I don't want any photographers. Babe Ruth shows up. Hit a home run for Johnny. This is for Johnny. He would spend time. I got pictures of them all over

the place. Private, though. Yeah. Now, another thing, we were in New York City. I got a call from Bud Schuberg. I just heard Joe Fraser died. I was Woodaulay. I remember Dr. Gaffray was Joe, Joe Frazier's doctor. I call him. He said, Joe's in the hospital. He's very, he's going to be okay.

So I hung up. Ali said, if anything happens to him, I'll never fight again. After the first fight. After the first flight. He was in hospital because even though he got their decision in the first flight, It was him that went to hospital. And Ali didn't want to go to the hospital with the jar, with the swollen jar. It wasn't broke then.

It was just a big. I don't want him to say Joe Frazier put me in the hospital. So it wasn't broke. It was just a ditched. I've got to ask you about George Foreman. Yeah. We lost him recently. What are your George Foreman memories?

I remember the real story, John Daly, Video Hemdale, was the promoter of that fight. The Rumble in the Jungle? Right. He promoted that. Now, Barry Bernstein and Hank Schwartz, they needed someone to go talk to George Foreman. So they hired Don King. So Don King went out to see George Foreman. He said, I'm not going to fight him.

If I beat him, I get no credit. They say, I beat an old man. And then Don King said, $5 million. He said, let's do it. So then he thought he could walk through Ali. I mean, you've seen George Foreman knock people down, step on them, to go to the neutral corner. Vicious. Yeah, so we watched, Ollie and I, we watched the Fraser fight, the George Foreman Fraser fight. But getting back, we watched that fight and run the tape back. He said,

no, Pastor Knockdown. So I run it past the knockdown and here's George, he's going to the rope. With Fraser on the floor, one of the six times. We're on the floor, him going, he said, I got him. No stamina. Wait till he hears round three. Four. Round four. George, no gas stations out here, no gas stations out here, then they signed it. So then Ali and I, we went down to the Kenny Norton George Foreman fight, but they already signed Ali. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So if Norton wins, it blows everything. Well, Foreman wins. So right after Bob Sheridan is interviewing Ali, and Ali, they're going to have a press conference the next day and announce it. But knowing Ali put the camera from him, he said, I'm going to the...

Congo and all you sports riders who talk bad about me when they get you over there they're going to put you in a pot and cook you it wasn't two hours later I got a call from Bula was Jim Pupo was the president's writer he said we're trying to promote tourism not kill it we don't put people in pots to cook them over here so I said don't worry about it we'll take it so all he took it from there but George Foreman everybody he fought he scared to death now all Ali, he believed in Islam, the religion islam. He's entitled to believe in that, just like the Pope and Jesus or anyone.

He's entitled. And Elijah Muhammad would call him, how are you going to lose? He doesn't have Allah on your side. That was Ali's swan song. You know, Ali had no fear. The strong will beat the weak. The brains will beat the strong and the weak. The brains will always win out.

And in the four posts, you've been around boxing more than I've been around. The smartest man in those four posts was all he. No one was smarter. Gene, 55 days in Zaire. What was it like being around George? Because George was there the whole time as well, looking angry, looking in. Tell me about the rumble. We get over there.

And when we land, the first thing I'd do is I go to the American Embassy, which Nixon was the president. The ambassador was appointed, it was appointed by Nixon. He was scared of debt to come around us. But they had a fetus. We had 32 people. We paid for the food. We got all the best food, the best steaks, everything.

Then we got a young kid over there. His dad was the diplomat. He had a projector. He showed us movies every night. Kirkukkirk, Corian sent us movies. Ali would watch the movies. Ali said, A lot looked out for me. This fight, nobody can get to me. I can't go anywhere. He would

look for excuses to leave camp. This is, this is it. So all he had to do is rest, rest, rest, request. Now, when George gets the cut in sparring. Okay, when he got the cut, bullet came to me and said, the fight is postponed, the fight, George got his eye cut. I said, take their passports. So he took the passports. Now they could have flown into London, and then went to the American Embassy there. But they thought they had a seat there because they didn't have the passport. So I saved that fight, you know, but at that time,

I didn't do interviews. I was too busy looking out for all eating, being in front of a camera. So what was George like in the days before and in the hours for? Because if I'm not mistaken, you went to the dressing room when George was getting bandaged.

What was that like in there? Okay, Dick Sallet was walking around. I feel death in the air. I feel death in the air. and George said, I'm gonna kill him. And I go back to him, to Jesse, what's he said? What's you saying?

He's talking about putting your kids in an orphanage. Oh, I can't wait to get him. Now, back it up a little bit. Yeah, go on. Muhammad had a lot of respect for Kuss Amata. We called Kuss on the phone. Cuss, how do I fight this guy? And Kuss told him, your first punch must be

with devastating tenacity. Well, he didn't know what he was talking about. And then I explained it to him. He said, tell Jing. I said, cuss, but look what Foreman did to Kenny Norton. Look what he did to Fraser. Cuss yelled. I didn't even need the phone.

He was in New York. I was in Deer Lake. But that's not Ali. And if you watch the fight, you'll see Foreman come out like this. Ali goes up and hits him, boom. And then Foreman was doing this. And then Ali abused him. Nobody abused Foreman.

But Ali wasn't scared of him. Ali, not a bit. So after that fight, did George change? Because he said he was a different person. Yeah, what he did, after that fight, he got humility. He became humble. Now, remember this about Ali. Everybody he fought, they became famous.

Everyone he fought, they fought their best fight. And everyone he fought, they made their most money. Was it ever close to being a rematch between Ali and... No, listen. Was it ever close to you? No, no. Why not? He called Ali 60 on birthday.

I went to Arizona. He was living in Arizona, I went to see him. And I called George. I said, I'm going to be there. Here's my name to call me. So George called. I said, yeah, hello, George. Said, is Ali there?

I said, yeah. He said, tell him I want a rematch. He said, you tell him. And Ali had Parkinson's who was shaken. And Ollie said, no, no, no rematch. You know, but they stayed friends. George became a different type of person. He took Ali's show on the road. He became humble and smiling at people and nice. And

because of that, he got the grill. He made more money with that grill than he did boxing. So without Ali changing him, making him humble, he wouldn't have got the grill. He might have went back to beating up old ladies for their groceries or stealing cars or something. Because in Houston, he was a thug. And I'm looking at his wall gene. I'm looking at Elvis. I'm looking at Marlon Brando. I'm looking at Bobby Kennedy. I'm looking at Pele. James Brown, Tom, Tom Jones. There's a whole list of names, Sir Narcha. Who, of all of those guys, who was the best guy?

Who, of all those famous people on that wall, that you've got your arm around? Who was a guy you could sit down with and relax? Okay, number one, my best friend, I'll plan on her Carl Malone the basketball. Yep, yep, Carl Malone. Bobby Kennedy was another one, good guy. Chris Christopherson, I put Ollie together with Chris.

Because he was a boxer, wasn't he? He did the movie. Yeah. He was at the six. the Olympics and Rumi was a road scholar. Is it true, Gene, that you had a car that Tom Jones gave you? Yeah. And is it true that you lived with a very famous actress once in Los Angeles?

Yeah, that was good times. To say the least, Gene, that's it. We are absolutely brilliant. That's perfect, man. On BBC Sounds, this is four strangest crimes. From the man who tried to buy cricket. One night, one game, one or takeoff, $20 million.

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