5 Live Boxing with Steve Bunce - Remembering Joe Bugner

Episode Date: September 1, 2025

Following the death of British heavyweight legend Joe Bugner, Buncey speaks to those who knew him best. Robert Smith, General Secretary of the British Boxing Board of Control, whose father Andy trained Bugner, shares his personal memories and explains why he ranks him just behind Lennox Lewis among Britain’s all-time greats. Matchroom’s Barry Hearn reflects on staging the famous Bruno-Bugner fight at White Hart Lane in 1987, while former British heavyweight champion Scott Welch recalls facing an ageing Bugner in the mid-90s. Plus, we hear a rare extract from Bugner’s appearance on Desert Island Discs in 1973.

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degree rotating pocket pivot and a free thumb drive nozzle. Go to pockethose.com slash podcast. That's pockethose.com slash podcast for your two free gifts with purchase. Pockethose.com slash podcast. BBC Sounds, music, radio podcasts. This is Five Live Boxing. In the early hours of Monday morning, Joe Bugner, one of British Boxing's greatest fighters passed away in Australia. Boogna was not just a good heavyweight, he was a great heavyweight in an era of the very best heavyweights. Muhammad Ali, Joe Frazier, George Foreman. For a decade, they were the only three heavyweights in front of Joe Boogna in the rankings.

He fought everybody. He was in some memorable fights, some memorable encounters. He was a massive name. He fought for 32 years. He had 83 fights in total. he was 75 when he died and this is going to be a celebration not just of his life in the ring

but of his life outside the ring I'm Steve Bunce and this is 5 live boxing so this is not the pod we were planning on doing today we had another one planned an absolute golden pod to be perfectly honestly but it's a sad day for British boxing it's a sad day for me because Joe Boogner was one of my absolute heroes I absolutely adored the man

and adored the fighter and some of his stats are absolutely redacted When he had that enormous fight with Henry Cooper, he was just 21 and three days old. And yet it was his 35th fight. Those are stats that are never going to be repeated. He had in total 83 fights, winning 69, 41 by knockout, losing 13. He went in with some of the greatest fighters. He had 32 years as a professional boxer.

32 years, it doesn't bear thinking about. and also some of British boxing's biggest promoters have to thank Joe Boogner. Mickey Duff was involved with some of the early massive fights. And Frank Warren from 1982, he pulled Joe Boogne back from Australia in obscurity. And Joe Boogne topped the bill at the Bloomsbury Crest in central London. It just doesn't bear thinking about in 1982. It helped Frank Warren. It gave Frank Warren some great legitimacy.

Trust me, those were unbelievable nights and unbelievable fights. And of course, Barry Hearn, we're going to hear from a bit later. It was him that put on the ridiculous fight in 1987, outdoors in the rain at Tottenham, between Bougna and Frank Bruno, a kind of passing of the baton. Well, that's the official story. We're here from Barry Hearn a little bit later on. We'll also hear Joe Bougner's Desert Island disc recorded just after his first of two fights with Muhammad Ali. And then we'll also hear from Scott Welsh, who fought a 46-year-old.

46-year-old Joe Boogner in 1996. Scott at the time was the British heavyweight champion. But we're going to start with Robert Smith at the British boxing border control. Now, Robert's father, Andy Smith, had discovered Joe Boogner, had nurtured Joe Boogner for when Joe was about 16 years of age. He turned him pro at 17.

He was with him throughout the 70s, throughout all of the great night. So Rob's been around him a long time. And Rob joins us now. Rob, thanks for joining us. Rob, I've got to ask you. straight away. Did you know Joe Bugner before you were born? I mean, you know,

was your mum pregnant with you? Or was it after you were born that you met the great man? I think I was just about born, yeah. I just remember him when I was a young boy. I mean, he was very young himself. He turned pro at 17, I think. So I mean, I'm the same age as you, Steve.

So it was very early on in the days. But obviously he was in and out of the house. He was in and out of the gym all the time. So I knew him well when I was young. And, you know, a sad day, obviously. Yeah, it is a sad day. Have you had much contact with him over the last, say, 20-odd years? Now and again, not a great deal, to be fair. Went to Australia.

Obviously, my father passed away a number of years ago now. They kept in contact now and again with letters here and then, but not a great deal. I mean, obviously, you move on, and that's it. But obviously, I do speak to his son. We call him Baby Joe. It's always Big Joe and Baby Joe, to be honest with you. So we speak to his son, Joseph on a regular basis. but no, not a great deal.

As I say, the last thing I think he wrote me a letter asking some stuff and I wrote back to him and that was about it. And so you found out, was it a shock? Because he'd been in this home for about three or four years as far as I can make out. So did you have any suggestion that he was coming to the end, Rob? No, I knew he was in poor health because his son had told me on a regular basis.

But no. To be honestly, he was it a shot? I suppose it was a shock really. when these things happened, but obviously disappointed when I heard it, because I think he was only 75, I think, so we're still relatively young. I mean, what's really amazing, Robert, some of the stats, I'm sure you're familiar with them, but for instance, when he was for Henry Cooper, he was 21 and just three days old, but it was his 35th fight at that particular night in 1970.

I just wondered, I mean, you would have been 708 like me. Did you go to that fight, can you remember, or were you kept at home? No, I wasn't allowed to go. The father wouldn't let me go, but we did watch it. I think the fight was put on close circuit TV and the cinemas around them, and I went to one of them and watched it. At the time, the board's rule was you had to be 21 to fight for a British title. Now it's now on the amount of rounds the contest takes.

But you had to be 21st. So three days after his 21st birthday, he won the British Heverweight and Commonwealth and European Championship, which was a hell of an achievement against a man of Henry Cooper's ability, etc. Although coming to the end of his career, obviously, But still, it was a big jump up in class. But Joe turned pro at 17, and his amateur record was quite small, really, compared to it. And I remember a dad telling me he wanted to turn pro early

because you could control who he was boxing at the time, where in the amateurs, you couldn't, and you were boxing men. If he was boxing for England, he would have been boxing against the Russians and the Eastern European. And proper men. Proper men, when you're a 17-year-old, proper men. And by turning pro, it could be controlled about who you were boxing. And that's why he had so many bats in a limited amateur career.

And in those days, which is different from now, you had an education by boxing lots of different styles. But also in and around that Cooper fight, you know, in that 12-month period there, I had a little look. And he had nine fights inside that 12-month period, including, I think, a fight was Chuck Wepner, Rocky, when he was still only 20 years of age. I tell you one thing that's interesting, Rob,

is that I take all. on board what your dad was saying about you can control things and his first fight big joe you know where i'm going with this was on like you know one of the sporting clubs the hillton hotel and and and regs guttrich tells a really funny story we've got to be out of laugh as well guttrich tells a funny story he said steve he said um he said i got a little group together because i really fancied this geese abugner you know andy smith had told me and i trusted andy and of course they went along and the first fight didn't work out very well didn't it no he didn't he got he got sparked but um he's yeah he's

ridiculous. Bearing in mind, he had such a great chin. I mean, of all the people he bought, he had a really good chin and powers of recovery was quite immense. And he was a very difficult blow to hit as well with his defence, etc. But, you know,

but Dad told me he rang, Joe rung him up and he always called him Mr. Smith. He goes, Mr. Smith, don't worry, my mistake won't happen again, we'll be all right. And at that point, he moved on. And he beat the opponent a couple of times after that. So, and not being honestly, Steve, it maybe helped get him a few more fights.

Because obviously people thought, well, he's not that good. We'll take him on. And he certainly had plenty of fights. I want to build up to the first fight with Ali, the 12-round fight in Las Vegas in 1973. And Ali had been at, I think, the Royal Albert Hall for one of Joe's fights in early 73 or late 72, and he'd got up in the ring and took his shirt off and challenged Boogner. Now, that was in Las Vegas.

And that was the fight. I don't know if you, did you go to that, Rob? you would have been, what, 10 years of age or something? Yeah, no. Were you allowed to that one? No, I wasn't allowed to that one. But that was when, that was, the name of it was the British a coming. It was, it was Valentine's Day, if I remember rightly.

John H. Tracy boxed on it. John Conti boxed on it. So it was a good quality card. But at the time, Joe was only 23. I think he was 22, 23. Yeah. I think it was 22. It was before his 23rd birthday.

Yeah, it's right. I think it was February. Yeah, he was 23. much. That's right. So it put up a great performance. After the R. Leigh fight, Joe Bugner gets invited on the Desert Island Isle, with Roy Plomley. Here's Roy and Joe Bugner on Desert Island This in 1973. Bear in mind, he's still a 23-year-old heavyweight. Joe, you were born in Hungary, weren't you? That's right, yes. How old were you when you left? I was six years old. It was rather a dangerous trip getting out, wasn't it? Well, it was as far as my mother was concerned.

because if she was caught at the time, she would have been imprisoned. And I believe the sentence was something like 10 years for endangering the children's lives, should there be any children involved in the escape? Yes. But how many children were you? Well, there was my two sisters and myself, and of course a few months before that,

my second eldest brother escaped with another friend. Yes. Do you remember it all very vividly? I can remember certain incidents, you know, for instance where I had to carry the machine gun. Once we crossed the border, and the Yugoslavian soldiers took us from the border to the railway station,

where we got onto a train and went to a certain place, I had to carry his machine gun. And, of course, being a six-year-old kid, I thought, what a fantastic great thing, you know, carrying a machine gun. And whereabouts do you settle? Well, at first we went to London, from there we moved to Wiltshire,

and then we were stationed to Bedford where we made our home for 11 years and of course now I moved into Cambridge year Yes You began doing rather well at sports You became the English schools discos champion That's right, yes I was very very proud of that

Because I always loved sports I never did like studying And of course Being the biggest boy in classroom every boy sort of looked upon me as one of the heroes you know if any boy was fighting with another boy they always say I'll come and call Wagner over if you don't watch it

you know something like this when did you start boxing I started boxing at the age of about 12 that's when I was first introduced but then being too big for other boys of my age group and I didn't really concentrate on boxing until I was about 16 yes how did that start again

it started whilst I was an apprentice in Bedford Apprentice at what? I was an apprentice marine engineer and I had a friend there who always talked about the Lord Brothers who came from St. Ives Huntingtonshire they were ABA champion and so on

British representatives and of course at that time they were professional and he says would you like to come and meet them and their manager Mr. Andy Smith I said I'd love to very much indeed so I went along one Sunday morning to his gymnasium and he'd love to looked at me as, there was some kind of Hercules, because he was only about five foot six.

So he looked at me, he says, what can I do for you, son? And I said, well, I said, I'd just like to have a look at you training and everything. He says, fine, fine. So you've got your kit, you know what I mean? So I says, great, yes. We're going to get changed. So I go and get changed. Put me stuff on and started training.

And he says, well, son, he says, I'll tell you what. He says, I'll take you to London with me on Tuesday and see Billy Walker fight. I believe it was Ray Patterson at the time. This is going back to 1966. And ever since then we've been together. Yes. And quite soon, he said you should be a professional fighter. No, he didn't actually.

It was a typical Scott attitude, you know. Come back again and we'll see. In fact, Mr. Smith was the type of person that would, you know, see potential, but wouldn't tell you about it until he was absolutely. sure and I was very pleased about this. Yes. And when he was absolutely sure, how old were you? Um, 17. That's about as young as it's possible to fight professionally.

Well, at that time, this was, I mean, let's say, this is going back five years. The limit to turn professional without that down was 17, but of course, since then they've put it up to 18. Yes. And you were already married? Um, well, I wasn't married till I was nearly 18. Yes. responsibilities. I mean, I had responsibilities right from the start. I left school because having no father, it was a sort of thing that one had to depend upon himself. Because coming from a

large family, in a sense, you know, you sort of worked for yourself, you made sure that everything you had, you had it, you know, you went and grasped it. You wouldn't sort of say, oh, well, it would happen again or something. When you had something, you kept hold of it. What was your very first professional fight? Oh dear, you hit a sore point there now. That was against Paul Brown, whom ended rather disastrously because I got knocked out in the fourth round. Now, after coming unstuck in your first professional fight,

you plugged away. It was a matter of getting experience, really, first of all, wasn't it? Yes. I think in every profession, as far as entertainment is concerned, you know, practice, practice is the most important thing in everything. Among your early fights, which one do you remember in particular? It's a very difficult question really because I was so involved in my boxing

that as far as individual contests were concerned I couldn't really pick upon one as being the most enjoyable and the most exciting Well after about three years you had your first really big chance A title fight against Henry Cooper Nobody thought you had much chance did this I did I mean I feel that my manager and myself

we thought that I had a 60-40 chance of winning. Yes. It was a very close thing, a narrow point decision, so close that there was a bit of a dust-up. I really agree upon this, but I mean, I knew it was upon the last round. And you took the British and Commonwealth and European heavyweight titles from him. That's right, yes.

But you only held those titles a few months. Now you hit another soap point, right? They were taken off you by a chap called Jack Baudet. Who is that for it again? You've heard of him? Yes, I have actually. In fact, you hit a very bad patch. You had your jaw broken by a not particularly well-known fighter.

I don't think I'll agree upon that, Roy, because this Larry Middleton was rated, I believe, somewhere in the top ten, when he came over to Britain, but of course he wasn't known. But that doesn't make any excuses as far as the contest was concerned, although I thought to myself that I did enough to win. Did it mean you had to start all over again now? No, it doesn't in fact. It's quite the opposite. Because relating back to my very

first contest when I got knocked out, should you suffer a defeat, instead of going back to square one, you don't, you just try and plod on and on because progress is the best way to cure a headache. Well, after Larry Middleton, you took on five American boxes, one a month, and demolished all of them. Well, that was our intention because that's something to give you confidence. Well, then you had a shot at getting one of your titles back, the European Championship. That's right, yes. That was one of my proudest moments because Mike Barrett, the London promoter for the Abert Hall, gave me this chance.

And let's face it, promoters don't give you a lot of chances. But this one did, and he trusted me because he felt that I could do it, and I went back and did it. Yes. And you defeated Juergen Blin. That's right, yes. And then three distinguished things. figures, an American, an Italian, and a Dutchman, and that brought you the chance to fight Muhammad Ali at Las Vegas.

Yes. You weren't meeting him for the first time. You didn't know him socially quite well. Yes, I must admit, I must be one of the fortunate fighters to have met Ali on something like five occasions. Yes. And... You'd sparred with him?

I have sparred with him on four previous occasions, yes. Now, he's a loudmouthed blustering character full of threats of knocking you cold. Now, does that sort of thing, I'm going to get that bum in the seventh round, does that have any psychological effect? Does that make you worry about the seventh round? Is this showmanship or is it gamesmanship? I think it could have a tremendous worry on a person who's a bit narrow-minded and, you know, it can't sort of adapt to a person who's got a tremendous ability

to talk you into the ground. But I think once you stand up to your rights and tell him, knock it off, mate, what's up? You know what I mean? Yes. He knows that I only believe a certain amount of his arrogance and his chat. You know, and to me it's just a lot of hot air. You had Henry Cooper with you in Las Vegas. He was what, advisor?

Sort of, you know. I think Henry enjoyed the Gulf very much. Joe, what did you think our chances were in that fight? We went there on a 50-50 basis because, I mean, we felt confident. I also knew that Muhammad Dali was a, is a great fight, and he still is. And I think this was sufficient, because, I mean, if you don't have confidence in yourself, then you might as well not go to places like that. Well, he hit you hard and often, but you stayed on your feet for 12 runs,

and he wasn't indulging in any cloning in that fight, was he? He was taking it very seriously. No, I mean, he knows me as well as I know him, that I went there to destroy him. but unfortunately I wasn't going to let the British flag drop to the ground because of a cut eye so I thought I might as well keep it at three quarter mast

and make sure that we don't sink that's Joe Bugner with Roy Plomley on Desert Island This five months after fighting Ali, he fights Joe Frazier at Earl's Court in one of it's just one of the best British heavy fights involving the British

heavyweight as far as I'm concerned I can watch it and watch it again it's 12 savage and brutal rounds. The interesting story about that, Steve, was he was meant to be boxing Danny McElinda. And they've got the venue to fight Danny McElindon. And Danny got stopped by somebody, and I forget who it was now.

So then they brought in as a substitute, Joe Frazier. Well, it's one hell of a substitute, to be fair. But I think it was one of Joe's best performances. And he got dropped and hurt in the 10th round and managed to get through it. But then he hurt Joe. Joe Frazier, and Joe's,

Frazier's legs dipped. And I honestly think it could have been a 15-rounder, Arjo might have won. Yeah, that is a staggering form. And I've watched it and watched it. I just think it's one of those great fights. And it's not long after that. You know, he keeps on having different fights, different wins,

that he goes out to Kuala Lumpur in 75, you know, in the morning because of the heat, and he still claims it was 118 degrees. Goes to 15 rounds of Ali in a world heavyweight title fight, doesn't get any credit whatsoever. And in fact, it gets a bit angry after that fight. And it's Ali that comes to his defence saying, listen, you don't understand what it was like in that ring.

Can you remember that reaction? And can you remember Joe's reaction to the reaction? Yeah, I can remember. He was very unfairly criticised, I think. But I will tell you a story, because I remember we come from some times in Markettown in Cambridure. And obviously, our nearest REO base is Whitten, which is just up the road.

And they had a chamber, a heat chamber, like a sauna, which was like humidity. And he trained in there, skipped and everything like that, to try to get used to the heat and the humidity over in Guadalu. And the plan, I remember very clearly from talking to my dad, was the plan was we're going to hang in there, we're going to get in there for six or seven rounds, tie her alley out, because at the time, you know, in those days, Ali was 32, 33. And in those days, everybody thinks he was an old man at that.

Although we are talking about one of the greatest boxes that's walked on the planet and the plan was over the second part of the fight, Joe would come on and really go for it. But he got back to the corner at the end of the sixth or seventh round and I won't say the exact words he said to my father, but he said, Mr. Scott, I'm very tired. I can't really push it.

And I remember my dad telling me, he said, okay, Joseph, hang in there and let's just see what we can do. and I think the heat just got to him to. I'm told he was 118 under a corrugated roof in an outdoor venue. And he lost nearly about just under a stone in that fight. So it was very difficult for him. But when you get the opportunity to fight for the World Heavyweight Championship against Mohammed Ali, you've got to take it.

And they took it. It didn't quite work. But still, it was a – and I think for that fight, he was the most highest paid sportsman, British sportsmen there was with a million dollars. So I think, you know, and we're talking about fighting, you know, the greatest fight that's been, the greatest personality there's been anyway. So that's another little sort of footmark. Let me ask you this, Rob, when your dad came back from these big fights in Vegas or even

the big, the big Knights of Wembley or the rural Albert Hall, was he exhausted? Was he emotionally drained your father? Because, you know, you're a boy of 13 or 14. Your dad's been away however long in Las Vegas in a massive fight or Quarola Lumpur in a massive fight or just four days in London. Would he come back exhausted your father? Yeah, very much so.

I mean, dad worked on a proviso that, you know, everybody, he didn't train many boxes because he could, you can't give the time to a big camp of people. So he only ever had five, six, seven boxes at a time, to be fair. But he took them in his family. I mean, you know, Joe used to come and stay at the house, the week before the fight. Dave Boy Green, when Dad managed him, used to come and stay at the house

a week before the fight. Des Morrison, who's British Lightwell to Earth champion, which is super lightweight now. A proper weight, you know, proper weights, light well to wait in those days. So he really was emotionally involved in it. And you know, for a couple of days afterwards, he was really worn out. And

he wasn't great fun to talk to if we lost. That's why I asked, because I can't imagine your father could just come back and it would be back to normal, back to the school. I mean, you know, I get back from a big fight after four days and I'm unbearable for a week and I'm not really involved. I'm in the third row. There's a couple of other fights in the 70s, but that Ron Lyle on a Sunday afternoon in 1977 when he loses on a split and they go for each other from the start.

Dangerous Ron Lahl, who of course started boxing when he was in prison on a murder charge. That's another one of the fights that gets overlooked. You know, in fact, the whole Joe Buggner in the 70s when he was. either ranked third or fourth, or third or fourth in the heavyweight rankings for close to a decade. And then it ends really with the Ron Lafite. That's maybe the last of these great years.

That fair comment, Rob? I'd say so. That's the last fight my father was involved with him because after that Joe went to America, stayed in America along before he went off to Australia. But that was the last fight my dad was with him. But Ron was a great fight. I mean, if you look at Ron against George Foreman,

the Ushy Down and Be able to be able to him. Ron was a really good heavyweight and to lose on a split decision on a fight I think he could have nicked it at one point but there's a big story behind that what I won't go into but no

Ron was a good fighter and I mean if you look at Joe's record people he boxed I mean Matt Foster was a great fighter as well beat good fighters that we just ignore yeah absolutely beat Mac beat Jimmy Ellis you know these are really good fighters

in an era that was in the heavy scene, I believe, was the best there was. And everybody fought each other, and Joe just happened to be in the mix. Maybe an unfortunate, an unfortunate time, maybe for him. But he acquitted himself very well. He certainly did. Well, let me ask you a question. And I think we talked about this before.

When Joe married Marlene, was that the one where Tom Jones was the best man? And were you at that wedding? I mean, wasn't it, I think didn't Joe insist that Tom Jones didn't sing or some sort of story like that. I think were you at that wedding? I wasn't at the wedding. My father and mother and my older brother were there, but I wasn't there, no.

I don't know about that. I haven't heard that story, but I can't answer about that. But, you know, that's a shame. I think I'd have got Tom Jones to sing at my wedding if I could have done it. Hey, listen, if he's my best man, he's singing. So, Rob, before I let you go,

try and sum up Joe Buggner in a sentence or, And I know how close you were. I just think he was one of the best, one of the better, I mean, other than Lennox, who went on to win a world title, et cetera,

and I actually think Joe possibly is the second best heavyweight we've ever had in Britain. I know he lost a big Frank, etc., but it was 37, 38 years of age. That doesn't matter then. That's comedy fights.

And that's it. But I actually personally, you know, maybe I'm biased. You know, I can say that hand on heart. But I think if you look at the record and the people who buy If he's not the second best, he's pretty bloody close to it. Yeah, Rob, that's the way to finish on that.

Thanks so much for your time. I'm going to hear now from Barry Hearn, who's the promoter of that fight, Rob was talking about there. That was the Tottenham Hotspurs in 1987 in the rain. Big Frank Bruno and Joe Bougner. The build-up was absolutely brilliant. Ozzy Joe, as he was at the time, knew how to sell it. The fight itself, hey, forget it.

The night itself, forget it. But what an event. Here's Barry Hearn on this. When we come back, we'll hear from a man who actually fought Joe Bougna. Rob, thanks you very much. Here's Barry Hearn. That fight only really happened because my, as usual, my wife nagged me. To make it.

Yeah. I was in a Chinese restaurant in South End. And she was saying to me, well, what are you doing? Because I was going to retire in 1982. I'd made a pile of money. I was 34 years old. I thought, I was just going to go fishing, play cricket. You know, I bought this place.

I paid a couple of million quips. You're comfortable. I was comfortable. And then I got bored. And that's why I formed Matrum to have some fun. I didn't do it to make money. I didn't know I was going to make any money. But during that process, boxing, I've always been a fan of.

I used to, I mean, I messed about myself. I was absolutely useless. But I used to go to all the shows, the ABAs, through to the pro shows and all that. That was your connection with Freddie King. Yeah, Freddie used to train me and all that. And, you know, we were mates. in business as well. So it all connected. But the idea of doing a big show is my wife said to me one at this Chinese restaurant, well, what are you doing about boxing? I said, I'm going to do a really

big show. I said, I want to do Bruno versus Bugner. And she went, well, that's impossible. You'll never be able to do that. I said, I think I can. She said, rubbish, you know, as women do, his wives especially do. And I went, well, hang on a minute. And I actually went out to reception and asked them, can I use your phone? Because I had Joe Bugner's phone number with me. This is gospel true and I phoned up this little squeaky voice said hello and I said Joe you don't know me my name's Barry her and I'm involved in snooker and he said I've heard the name I said well here's a thought for you I said I want you to come to England and I want you to Australia it was in Australia said I want you to box this is probably 11 o'clock at night in Australia this is lunchtime in

England I want you to box Joe I was you to box Frank Bruno and he said well that's going to cost you a lot of money I said look I did a bit of research I think you got $20,000 for your last fight. But I'll give you 250,000 pound. And he went quiet and then he went, and what blind did you want me on? And he just, he was there, it was done. I mean, it was more difficult getting,

extracting Bruno from the cartel of his own. But that happened as well because Trevor Burbank was supposed to be fighting Frank, got injured and Frank didn't have a fight. And I moved in when everyone else was out of the country. So it was cloak and dagger stuff. But he was quite excited because I, didn't have a scooby-doo what I was doing.

And that was more excited than anything else. On the night at Tottenham, because I was there, I was working for the ring magazine on the night. I mean, only one of the 984 publications I've worked for over the year, son. You can't keep a job all the time. No, no, there we go. Sometimes I keep with two weeks. Soon a lady, you get sussed out. I just bounce between them and hope they don't make contact.

No, and I remember on the night there being, it was bad weather. You know, it was a bit... It was a bit... It was the end of October. Exactly. It wasn't a very sensible time to a fight. Actually, I'd done my first boxing show, one month and a week, before that show.

Was that in South End? Yeah, and so I'd gone from Gary Mason at Cliffsville in South End with about 900 people in, straight to 37,000. Without having an absolute clue, I mean, it was talk about by the seat of your pants. I didn't know anything, you know. I remember going...

I thought, what do you do before the big event? and I remember some old black and white movie where the actor was a boxing promoted gone in to wish everyone the best of luck I thought I'll do that so I went into Frank's home Frank's I was like a like a morgue in there

was so quiet cold no one was saying anything and I just went best of luck Frank and he went yeah that was it that was our conversation walked down the corridor I could hear the music coming out of Joe Buggner's one because he'd been there before and he'd been a choir lumpy

before Arlese been all over the world For all the big Americans? Yeah. Got in there and he said, Marley, which one of these dressing gowns do you think I should wear tonight? It was like he was at a party. And I gave this pre-arranged speech to him.

I said, Joe, I've got to thank you. You've sold all the tickets. You've been brilliant at the press conferences. You've walked in with a stuffed alligator over your shoulder. You've got the Australian hat on. You've sold the tickets. And if you can win tonight, I will pay you a King's Ransom to come back and fight that new young American they're all talking about.

Mike Tyson. And Joe just looked at me and he said, well, Barry said, you're paying me a lot of money and I'm going to do my best. But if he hurts me, I'm going down. I thought, oh my God. Don't tell me that. This is all over in the first round.

But fortunately it wasn't. And the fight was a reasonable fight. Not great. It was an occasion. The best B2B marketing gets wasted on the wrong people. So when you want to reach the right professionals, use LinkedIn ads. LinkedIn has grown to a national.

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how Toto Wolf made his billions. Listen wherever you get your BBC podcasts. So that was Barry Hearn there, talking about a very cold and miserable and conflicted night that I had at White Hart Lane, watching Joe Buggner, what was left of him, against Frank Bruno. It was a bizarre night, a massive night for British boxing in many ways. Now, about, I don't know, nine years after that, Joe Bugner was back. I dined with him at a restaurant.

He was going to fight for the British heavyweight title against the champion, and the upstart, Scott Welsh, who was the champion of the time. He was going to fight at the Royal Albert Hall outdoors at Wembley, anywhere. We'll make it three for the people, said Ozzie Joe. In the end, he had to fight Scott Welsh in Germany. It was in 1996, and I'm delighted to say that Scott Welsh is able to join me now. Scott, first of all, your early memories of Joe Bougna, not from that night in 1996, but your memories of Joe Bougna, before you even got in the ring with him, what were they like?

He was a hero of mine I mean he fought Ali twice He fought Joe Frazier twice I mean You know the guy was a little of a legend So when they when they spoke to me about Boxing him I was like wow

It's incredible And then when I finally met him Face to face He was a lot bigger than what I expected He was a I thought he was the same size I'm 6-2 And I've got a picture with him And he was 6-4

and I think he weighed 18 stone 10. I think I was kind of 16 stone or something, which I thought was big. And obviously he was massive. But so that was a bit of a... I tell what, Scott, he was the biggest 6-4 I ever knew. Because I remember meeting with him, and I'm sort of 6-1, 6-2 myself.

And he seemed to be about 6-7. And not just that. He was enormous. You know what I mean by that? He was enormous. Well, I've got a picture. With me and him holding our fists up together. And I remember looking at his fist,

and his fist was almost the size of my head, and I thought, holy Jesus. It is massive. His hand engulfed my hands. And I remember looking at and thinking, Jesus Christ, how am I going to stop that? But obviously, the thing was to stay out of the way of it, and move quickly.

That was obviously the thing to do with it. But, yeah, he was a massive guy. And he was an absolute gentleman. And I actually fought him 25 years to the day after he fought Henry Cooper. That's right, the 16th of March in 96, exactly 25 years later. Incredible. So what do you remember about him actually once the bell went and there's just the two of you and the referee in the ring? So listen, I didn't give him, obviously he was 45.

I think he had his 46th birthday either coming up in a day or two. That's right. So when I fought him, I looked at him, when I met him at the press conference, it was at the, it was at the,

cafe royal. It was at the Royal. So beautiful venue. I walked in and he was, like I said, he was a man, man. I stood next to him. I thought,

Jesus, I can't believe he's this big. You know, and then we had a little talk and obviously I had the homes and I said to him, listen, yeah. Listen, Joe, I've got a nice room for you overlooking the sea. But I mean, even after me, he, I think, had five or six more fights, didn't they?

Against his position, James Bonecrush of Smith, he fought. Big names? Yeah, yeah, for quite a few of them afterwards. And what about actually in the ring himself? What was it like? You're facing up, you're coming out, he's topless, You know, he's a giant of a man, but he's also Joe Booker. He's still got a whole life of fights.

That was his 77th fight. He's got all that experience from you. You have him, what, about your 19th or something? Wow, wow. I mean, what he was, right? I didn't expect him to give me many problems. I've got to be honest, and he had, I knew he had this incredible jab. So we worked on Stan on the outside of the jab,

but it still took me kind of four or five rounds before. understood how to deal with it. He was very, very good with his beautiful jab and kept me away with it. And then once I kind of figured out that I can get right, now I'm going to break him down. I think I come back after the

fourth or fifth round. I think I stopped him in the fifth. Did I stop? Yeah, I think you did. I think I said after the fourth round, right, he's mine now. I've got him. I know how to deal with that jab. And then I worked out how to come in. And then I think I pinned him up against a rope and just

kept throwing punches until he kind of dropped. And that was it? Yeah, I mean, he did right himself. He struggled back up on his feet, and then they stopped him on his feet. But, I mean, he'd come to my house for dinner a couple of years after that. No way. What was that like?

Come down to Brighton, and we entertained him. What a wonderful, wonderful man. I mean, I was in my element. I swear, I've still got the pictures. My whole family were there, and he was an absolute gentleman. And like I trained, after beating him, his son, Joe Jr., come and found us in London and wanted to train with us. And he made a comeback of his career because he was a big six-foot-six guy as well.

He made a comeback, a very dear friend of mine. So, yeah, so it was a wonderful thing. And the whole family were lovely. And it was an honor to share the ring with him. But yeah, he gave me plenty of problems up until that time. And he gave me a lot more problems than a lot of the people who I fought in my whole career. So that's how good he was.

And that was a 40, nearly 46-year-old Joe Boogner. Joe, let me ask you this, Scott, in closing. What do you think would be the lasting legacy of big Joe Boogner? What would be the last in legacy if you had to sum it up in a couple of words? What do you think it would be? I think he was in, I mean, to have a career, of how many years was his career? 32 years in the ring, 83 fights.

I mean, there's the legacy there. I mean, who does that? Who the hell has them as a career like that? And I mean, he must have earned a lot of money because he was a very clever man and he knew how to sell the fight. He knew how to play the games. He knew how to sell the fight.

And a fine looking man up to the end as well. And he looked a lot younger than what he was as well, didn't he? Yeah, he was a heart throb in the 70s. Scott, thanks so much for sharing your thoughts with us and joining me. No worries, lovely. Scott Welsh. An honour, thank you very much. Scott Welsh there.

Thanks obviously to Scott and thanks to Robert Smith a little bit earlier on. So Big Joe Boogner, what does he mean the British boxing? I've asked a guest that. Well, I tell what he means to British boxing. I agree with Robert Smith. I think behind Lennox Lewis, he's the second best heavyweight we've ever had. had. I think the Joe Boogner that went to war with that whole list of greats in the 70s, 15 rounds, brutal rounds, surviving knockdowns against Joe Frazier, both would have ended up needing

hospital treatment. I think that Joe Boogner can go in with anybody. You know, and trust me, Lennox Lewis knows just how good Joe Boogner was. 83 fights, 32 years in the ring. Sure, there were some chaos and some mayhem at the end. But that 10-year period, after being knocked out as a 17-year-old. Joe Boogner, there'll never be another fighter in a British ring like Joe Boogner at any weight. We're not going to have a guy who has 83 fights, who was one of the greatest that he's wait for a decade. It's just not going to happen.

So we salute you, Big Joe Boogna, we really do. It's been an absolute delight and a pleasure talking about you, and it was a delight and a pleasure working with you all those years ago. I'm Steve Bunce, and this has been a very special five-life boxing. He scored goals, lifted trophies and broken records along the way. There it is! It's a dating! And now he's got a podcast.

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