5 Live Boxing with Steve Bunce - Taylor falls, Itauma rises

Episode Date: May 26, 2025

Carl Frampton joins Buncey to look back at a busy night of boxing from Glasgow. Will we see Josh Taylor back in the ring after he lost to Ekow Essuman? And what next for the man from Nottingham? We hear from him and Moses Itauma, who continues to impress following his second-round stoppage of Mike Balogun.

BBC Sounds, music, radio, podcasts. This is Five Live Boxing. So it was the Josh Taylor show, but nobody told Nottingham's Echo Esseman. He came to town with a plan. I'll let you in a secret. It's always the same plan. Keep the pressure on, keep the pressure on. And if they're still there after 12 rounds, invariably, I've won.

And that's what happened. Josh Taylor lost, Echo Esseman won. It was a memorable night up in Glasgow. I'm Steve Bunce, and this is Five Live Boxing. So that's what happened. Well, that's not really what happened. That's the Shulton version. And the Cinderella man, the fairy tale story,

the man that's meant to lose but keeps on winning Echo Esamon, well, he's gone off to, well, who knows where he's going to end up. Josh Taylor, well, I'm not quite sure he wants to fight again, not quite sure he will fight again, left the ring quite angry and did leave. The ring. Great venue this, DiOvo. I absolutely love it.

Anyway, I'm joined now. We're in an echoing chamber. This was Moses. It's a timeless change room. We hear from Moses in a moment. This was his changing room about an hour and a half ago. And with Carl, first of all, it's a good crowd in Scotland, and it's a good venue. But let's get straight to the fight.

You can probably tell from my voice. I didn't like what I saw all the time in that ring tonight. No. from Josh to him. I thought he had a very good start. Great first two rounds. Yeah, first two rounds. And even, I mean, the first half, there was glimpses of the old Josh.

And I was feeling good. And then just as the fight went on, he started to get dragged into the fight. Then Aco was getting closer. The right hand was landing reasonably early as well. But just as the rounds went on, it was landing a little bit more often. And you could see, it happened very quickly, but you could see the energy drain out of Josh. A lot of adds down. Almost like he was being let down.

like a paddling pole. It's just like, zzz. Yeah, that's the way it was. And it was like, a lot of it's down to echo. I mean, in his presence and how he fights always are. But also, I say a fair bit of it's down to Josh and the hard face he's been in and his age and everything else. Has been a really incredible career.

And if it is the last time we see Josh Taylor in the ring, you'll go down. Obviously, it's the only British mouth boxer to be undisputed champion. Sadly, that was done. not in front of 8,000 people here at the Ovo, but done in front of about 62 people. Such a shame. You know what I mean? He's a COVID victim in some ways.

The scores, let me just do the facts and figures. The scores were all in favour of Echo Esmond. 116, 113, 116, 112, and 115, 113. I thought it was really close. I wouldn't have been at all surprised if it had gone around either way. You... I had the same as the last, Judge. Echoed by a couple.

Yeah, but it was a tight fate. And even if we know the heights that Josh has been at, you've just touched on it, Dower Buncey, the elite of the elite. Even if he nicks it, it's probably time to call it a day. Because the version of Josh Taylor, that at his very best is dealing with Echo Wessam and relatively easy.

A bit like he did in the first two rounds, where the punts variety just seemed too much. It just seemed too sharp. The extra poundage seemed to be helping Josh. And I spoke to a hear from Echo in a moment. I spoke to Echo. and even Echo was a little bit stunned by that Josh, that just told him. And you're absolutely right there, Carl.

And I talked about that on Five Live last week. Josh, Josh Taylor was under a lot of pressure tonight. A, he was under pressure to win, but I think he was also under pressure to look good because scraping the decision tonight wasn't going to catapult him back into major contention. No, I think you have to, I mean, I have been giving them credit all week for even taking this fight. Yeah, I agree with you there. Because it's like, it's a, not really a win-win.

situation in the slater for Josh. I mean, if he loses the echo, everyone says, time to call it a day. If he beats echo, they'll say who's echo. Yeah. Echo who, yeah. Yeah, but it's a... What about this, Carl?

Listen to this. Echo who, echo who. Get it? Echo. Do you like that, son? Very good. I mess around, son. Very, very good.

I've been waiting all day to use that one. In fact, there isn't actually an echo and echo in this room anyway. That's your best joke here. I'm going to tell you a joke. That's the only joke. Light in the mood. Light in the mood. Bought a couple of goldfish and the fish and the fish and the

and called number one and number two friends says why'd you call your goldfish number one and number two says if one days I still have two

you beat me with a goldfish joke over the Echo Echo which actually now I'm thinking about I thought Echo Echo wasn't a bad joke

yeah that last round especially when suddenly you had Josh holding on and I mean it's been a remarkable career

because he wins the title all the world title about is what he's 15th or so far. He has that incredible run, six unbeaten fighters, five of them in world title fights. But then after the Ramirez fight,

that's when comes to the first cattle fight, which was up here. In fact, I was a COVID victim myself that night. I had to do it remotely. You were ringside. Well, you ringside that night. Of course, you fell out,

you thought you fell out of him because you thought the cattle could have nicked it. Yeah. Again, it was nice... But I mean, what he's done, honestly, doesn't get the flowers. There's only 21 fights now. Bonzi.

Is that all he's hard now? 21, that's his 22nd tonight. Is that it? That's what I'm... So when did he do the undisputed? I was telling everyone he won the undisputed in about 20 fights. No, he won the undisputed

and let's have a little work it out. He won the undisputed about his 16th fight. I mean... Hey, listen, no one's doing that. I mean, we're talking about Lomachenko land and Ousickland. I mean, he should have been... He should have been BBC sports personality. He should have won everything.

He should be recognised as one of the greatest athletes of this generation. And you know the mad thing? You know when he beat Ramirez, okay, in 2021, May 2021? I'd forgotten this, but then I remembered it. We did that for five live.

We covered it for five live, but we did it remotely because of COVID. There were massive restrictions. But you know, no television company picked it up. That was not shown live on TV. Hank against Ramirez.

Yeah, if you watched it. On disputed tech. Absolutely. So the only British boxer to win the, undisputed tie. Not the only

boxer to fight for the undisputed title. Tony Bellew did that. But the only boxer to win it wasn't shown

on television in the UK. It was on five live and we recorded it in a sound studio in Salford. Shocking.

Absolutely shocking. And so if you think about it, I mean, I know there's revolving doors or whatever they call it, but imagine had he won

the world, had he won, become undisputed champion in front of the crowd up here. What an eight. What an eight that would have been. But I mean, he should,

Josh should be, he'll be disappointed and he'll be hurting it at the minute, but he should be extremely proud of an unbelievable career. One of the best British fighters, one of the best British fighters ever, in terms of what he's done. He's been on the studio champion. He's got to be in conversations. He talked actually in this week's boxing news about at the end of boxing,

I'll go back to my bikes and I'll have my bikes. And I'm wondering if he knew, because I spoke to Joe McNally's trainer in, earlier before the fight and he said no he's been fine well that can sometimes happen Carl you know fighters can be absolutely fine in training the sparring can be fantastic

the road work can be fantastic and they don't know they're not hiding something until until the bill you know what I'm harring I had the sparring for the hurrying was aunt Ociccacchi he stayed southpour as herring's a southpour alexilmajani

out of maybe a hundred odd rounds I promise I don't, I lost, if I lost five rounds of Sparn, it'd be surprised. And the performance in the gym would have been maybe good enough to win on the night, but fighting in sparring is very different. When did you realise in that fight? At the end of round one. Actually, do you know what?

When he walked, because I remember looking at him at the way in and going, it's not as big as I saw it, he was dead. Like, he was really struggling to do the weight, very skinny. In my head, I'm going, I'm going to bust this lad's ribs. And then I was in the ring first because he was the champion. and as I've seen him do the ringwalk, he looked like he's inflated. Switch to his twin brother.

I remember looking at him going, just thinking, oh, Jesus, look at this. He did a Canello. He did a Canello. Oh, my God. Different. Big, big. His back was massive.

That's what I remember. Did you get that? We're talking about ESO in a moment and we're here from Echo in a moment, but did you get a sense tonight that Josh, because I went into Josh's dressing and waited five minutes for him. He came back. He had some stitches,

maybe four in stitches inserted in the left eye. And he wasn't really up for talking. And I never push it like that. So I just held my hands up and left the room. Because Conor Ben told me last week that when I spoke to him and he was crying after his defeat the Chris Eubank, he said I got him when he was vulnerable. So it made me think a little bit about intruding on losers' dressing rooms,

especially when they're that low. Did you get a sense watching Josh tonight that you know him very well? You've been around him. you went to his wedding. Did you get a sense tonight that he knew something wasn't right?

I don't know. I mean, certainly not early on anyway. Maybe towards the end. I thought he looked good at the start. Yeah. But yeah, it's just the hard fights and the age and everything else. And you slow down

and it can sometimes just happen very, very quickly. And even tonight in the fight, he went from being really good to not so good and it happened very quickly. Yeah, about around six or seven. Because certainly by the eighth, it looked like a bit of a not a lost cause, but a really hard cause. But there was an argument that he was in front, in my opinion, after six. Oh, he wasn't after sex, I had him well in front?

I mean, the first two rounds, clearly. Yeah, no, I think I'm the same as you, 5-1. And then I was trying to be kind. And then I was trying to half be kind. Anyway, we'll talk about Echo in a moment, but I went and grabbed Dole of Echo. I didn't have to ask where he's dressing room. I could hear them singing down there. I could hear them dancing down there.

If you don't know much about Echo Esselman, he's a fighter that basically nobody really wants to fight at international and top level, not because he's dangerous, but because in theory he doesn't bring a lot to the table, except his enormous engine. There's his nickname. Anyway, I spoke to Echo, and understandably,

he was a very happy man. And just that stubborn Cinderella, African traveling black man. It's true though, heck I mean, you know, the scarf loss And then the next two You were meant to lose And this one, you're meant to compete and lose You were brilliant at times tonight

Oh, thank you. You know what? The scarf loss just Showed me and opened my eyes into Things in boxing that I thought were important That weren't important And then things that actually are important So like I said, every round I'm looking to hurt my opponent

I'm looking to make a point I'm looking to be being nasty. Because that was a hard fight. The fourth round, round both of you caught each other, hurt each other. The first two rounds

he was brilliantly sharp and we know what the engine can do but even so, it was still a really hard fight. Well, it's always going to be a good fight with Josh Taylor. He's an amazing boxer. I've always respected him.

So yeah, it just was what it was and we got it on and I won. Could you sense, He was tiring? Because you don't ever tire. You're a 15 round fight. But could you sense that maybe Josh was tiring.

I could sense he was tiring a bit. Yeah, yeah, I could sense it. A few times after I hit him to the body, he'd clenched for a bit longer than he should have and whatnot. So, yeah. And you did the classic S-ECHO thing where you seem to be enjoying it, the longer the fight went, the more rounds are in there,

because you could sense that after his fast start, you'd taken over. Yeah, that's what it looked like to me. You know what, it doesn't fare well for my opponents. The longer I'm in there, the, I'm like the whole, kind of like the angry, gets the stronger it gets, the longer it goes, the fitter I get.

Now, the thing is, Echon, you and I've talked before, and we've said that, you know, nobody really wants to give you a break, so you better take fights that were tough fights. Surely now you'll get something, weren't you? Surely? Because you know Josh would have, how he beat you? Yeah, yeah, he definitely would have.

Yeah, I've just forcing the parcel. I have to work pressure on Frank. To try and get you something? Yeah. in particular? Is there anything you know? I just want, well, I would, of course, obviously I want the, like any other box, I love the big money fights to sort out my family and my, and the rest of my career and whatnot, but I want that world title.

So, with the world title comes more money, so happy days. It's a simple as that. Yeah, you are without a doubt as good as you've ever been right now. This might be the, that might have been the best echo estimate tonight. I don't think I was the best. I think it was a good match. I think I could have been better in Spouts, but I'm happy with that. I give myself a B-plus.

A B-plus. And what about Josh, if he would decide it to call it a day? What do you think on his career? Because he's been, you know, he's been a massive player, massive fight over the last four or five years. Well, he's done an, he has an amazing career. I can't, can't fought him enough. It's definitely a big name on my... On your record, on your record.

Absolutely. Absolutely. Another one. Yeah. Not the last one, is it? No, no, no, no. As DJ Callis says, I don't have a one. Echo, thanks so much for your time.

All right, thank you. So we forget about Echo. All those wins, lost to Harry's scarf, didn't get his sums right on the day when he lost to Harry's scarf, that he was meant to lose and he won, then he was meant to lose anyone, then he had the fight tonight,

and he was meant to have lost his last three, he's won his last three. Do you think he'll have a little bit of justice and get a title fight? I'm sure he deserves a shot, I mean, he's been British Commonwealth European champion, and then he's just beating Josh Taylor as well. So he deserves a big opportunity,

but maybe one of the champions, if they're looking at a voluntary defence, they say, what about this kid? But... I mean, the mad thing is, Cole, you see, even in this day and age, when we tend to think we're more competitive, we see challenges at all whites,

who are just... They're not as deserving as some guys that don't get a shot. I mean, we see it every week in World Title fights, and this kid deserves his crack. Do you know, on the, on the broadcast tonight, I was handing out World Title shots to everybody. He deserves a shot.

Don't go down the non-stopped zone route. Don't have to keep mentioning. Nathaniel Collins. Oh, he deserves his shot. He deserves a shot. And Big Moses will get one very soon as well. Yeah, we'll talk about Big Moses in a moment. But Josh, if Josh walks away, he walks away.

If he does a walk away, then he comes back. You know, maybe there was some sort of problem in training. I don't know. If there wasn't a problem in training, then perhaps even at 34, after a miraculous, only 22 fights, and most of those high-level fights, if he walks away, as you say, it said, one of the all-time,

one of the great modern careers. And that's for Echo Esamon, well, he's 36. Get on the Echo Bus, the Echo Tour Bus. I think he was inviting people. Now, earlier in the night, earlier in the night, Moses It's Harmo, we've mentioned there, we're in his dressing, and we mentioned him earlier. He's still only 21 years of age. He moved to 12 and 0 with 10 knockouts when he took on a former American footballer called Mike Bolungo. And, well, he dropped Mike, a bullet gun. He dropped Mike three times, and it was stopped in the second. But that's not really the full story. Here's Moses talking to me about this fight or that fight. and where he thinks he'll go. And also, as a word of warning to anybody listening, he might be 20.

That means he's older than when he turned pro, and he's older than he was when he was 19. But by no circumstances, is he old? And I made that mistake of suggesting that perhaps at 20 he was getting on a little bit. I've just left the teenage years, man. I'm not old yet. I still got a couple years left on me.

You look like you enjoyed that in there tonight. I properly enjoyed it. Do you know what? Jumping into the ring, I was a little bit annoyed. Only because it's like everybody thinks I'm going to knock him out in two rounds, which, or knock him out early, which I did.

But it's the fact that, like, at some point in that round, yeah, I felt his punches. And I'm like... When he came back, you're in the thirst. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, I felt some of them punches, and I was just, I was in my mind, I was thinking, like,

there's an element that doesn't get appreciated when you have tough, tough cookies like that. Did you get what I mean? Like, I dropped him three times and I was thinking, no way he's getting up. He was still trying to get up. He was complaining at the end. Literally. Like, it's like, so like I said, it was his only chance to get himself into the big leagues.

And I was the one to stop him, which is a bit unfortunate. But what are you going to do? But that's, some of that is good because that's just expectation. People expect it to it with people on the chin. Listen, expectation, I wouldn't say it's good, but pressure is good. Pressure is a privilege. Yeah, it is an absolute privilege. I'd rather have pressure than no pressure.

I've never asked you, who would you like going forward? Because you're not a guy that's calling out people and throwing tables and being stupid. Who would you like? Next six months? If I'll be honest, obviously, when our type of profession was about chasing that record and now that record's off the books,

honestly, I'm just trying to take my time with it. I don't mind. Like, my team want to see me in a couple 10-round fights where I'm still in control. So, like, E.I. Jermaine Franklin, Joe Joyce, what other names have been mentioned? While in them type of guys, you know, where it's like I'm going the distance with tough cookies,

but I'm still in control. And then after they see me in a couple 10-rounders, then boom, like, unleash me. Listen, I know you want to get changed, and I really appreciate your time. You talk about that record being off now. That's the Tyson beating Mike Tyson. Is that a relief,

or was it something that was always in the back of your mind? If I'll be honest, Steve, In like the first two months of me being professional, I realized that goal is impossible. Because I was naive when I said that. I remember I said that like literally before my birthday, but before I even turned professional. And then I didn't realize how much of stuff

you can't control in this boxing game. And you think since I've turned professional, the world champions have been Daniel Dubois, Alexander Uzziuk and Tyson Fury. There's no way in two years I would have put myself the position to fight them, to fight them, when you've got the likes of Zhang, Cabell, Wilder, like these type of guys that have been pro

and doing their thing. So I honestly, it wasn't a marketing strategy. Like I said, when our first time professional, I was genuinely trying to achieve that goal. It's only when I started to learn the school. Now you understand it better. I realize that it's not as easy as knocking people out. There's, you need to be put in a position to fight for them titles,

not just knocking people out. It's interesting. And final question. interesting you mentioned there half four or five names six names or so and there's another 15 or 20 so there's no shortage of bigger names and that's in for you to fight they want too much money man don't don't steal my questions of course they want too much money that's what else that was going to be my next question you can fight anybody it's just about money so at some point something's gonna have to give something's going to have to give hopefully not me eh no no no not you no shit not your

pocket but but to get those guys the guys you mentioned and even some of the brits it's just you know we're going to have to open the bank do you know what the problem is as well there's there's guys that are tough cookies that ain't got a name and that's obviously not ideal because like if you have a tough night with a no name then you know that's bad for everybody exactly so you want a you want a tough guy with a little bit of a name and they're not going to be cheap so listen it's like it's an anti-climax in it but that's not my job my job is going to there and not going to treat everyone like they could hit you on the chin exactly which mike Balagan came to do, you get what I mean.

Like that guy wasn't, he knocked 16 people out with 20 fights. So like, I was treating him, I was treating him with respect. Like, my brother, he keep telling me every single hour or so today or yesterday, he just kept saying, Mike Balagin. Just like, focus your mind on him, you get on me, because the problem is, this whole fight week, people are mentioning, Germain, people are mentioning Pocoli, Hergovich, they're mentioning all these names. I got Mike Balagan in front of me.

And in the first round, I took a little, like, nothing clean, but I took a couple on the gloves. And I was like, this guy can whack. When he got up? He came, he can whack. So I was just like, I was a little bit annoyed because the respect

of Mike Balagan wasn't there, which I knew I had to deal with. But the most important thing is you showed him some respect. Of course, 100%. Like I said, it's always nice to talk to you, Steve. My pleasure, man. Thank you. Thanks for your time.

Thank you. Thank you. Moses Sittammer there, getting a little bit prickly at the top when I suggested he was old. Well, he's getting old. He was 18 for about four years.

When we did him on TNT and BT, he was 18 for 14 months. Do you know what's mental, Buncey? But he's only 20. You have him in the nursing home already. But he's, he hasn't even reached,

like, his physical maturity yet. You know what I mean? No one near it. He's still a grown boy. He's just, he's just a big. Boy.

Listen, it may have been inevitable tonight, but he still finished. The last shot was a particularly good shot. The first knockdown was a sort of clip somewhere around the back of the year. That's irrelevant. But the last knockdown was a really good world. Gone by himself or short hook. And he adjusted his feet, finds the power. He moves fast.

He moves slick. Lots of people saying, oh, he moves like a middleweight. He moves like a featherweight. He moves like a welterweight. He moves really well for a heavyweight. Yeah, absolutely. Let's leave it at that. But let's deal with that whole idea,

which he mentioned there, and I know it's something that you've talked about, there are all these fights for him. You know, just, I mean, there were dozens of fights for him. You know, as he mentioned Otto Vali and as he, he mentioned all sorts of fighters, Jermaine Franklin. But all of these guys are going to say,

yeah, I'll fight him, no problem. Give me a fortune. You can have to pay me properly. Yeah, I spoke to George Warren about that, and I said that's going to be his issue. Like, he's going to really, you're going to struggle to get him opponents, but you're going to have to get the checkbook out

and pay them, pay them really well. They've been talked of Pacoly. I'm kind of going, it shows you the confidence they have to put Moses in with someone like Pacoley, but Pacoley still gives him if he's fit. And he shows up and he's had a proper camp.

Bacoli's a nightmare for anybody. And you don't catch him, he's there. And he's a big old boy. I'm kind of going, there's other fights for you. You know what I mean? But no doubt this kid could beat Bacoli. But I'm just thinking it's a strange one.

four inches taller and about five stone heavier. Yeah. And if Bacoli, our fans, as a short cut back after his last two defeats, he got a little bit of stick about his last two. So not the defeat against, obviously not the fit against Joseph Park, because he took that eight and a half minutes notice. But the last fight, yeah, he got a bit of stick for that. Let's get it right.

So maybe he sees it as a shortcut. And he was ringside tonight with Billy Nelson. Yeah, I've seen him. Big Martin. He's a big lad, isn't it? He's a big lump, but, look, it just shows you the confidence I have in Moses. And no doubt, Bonce says, it's just a matter of time. The kid's going to be a world champion and probably a unified or undisputed one of that.

What I found interesting was that line he used when he was talking there in the interview, when he said that when he turned pro, it was all about beating the Mike Tyson record and winning the world championship. He said, now he said, I can relax a little bit more. Yeah. Which is not the same as the pressures off, but it sounds like it's the same. I get it. I'll never like it. You remember you and I were together.

I always said it. We never liked that Mike Tyson stuff, didn't we? Fight for it when he's ready to fight for it. He's probably ready to fight for a world title now, let's be honest. In terms of his boxing, he's got a good boxing IQ. He moves really well. He punches hard. But the big thing he has on his side is I don't think there's been a heavyweight who punches us fast since Mike Tyson. Yeah. And so that, That's the genuine and valid Mike Tyson comparison is that speed certainly of his hands and they're just remarkably fast.

Fast as if, if money wasn't a problem, who would you match him with next two fights? Dillian wait. Yeah, I'd go for a big one like that. I mean, Dillian's going to want, Dillian's going to want serious money. Because Dillian's waiting for a payday. Of course, but I would say Dillian wait and then, I don't know. you could do another domestic one, I suppose. I have no idea.

I'm ready to say big names. I mean, AJ and stuff. The kids ready for people they got, I think. The AJ thing, the reason why I think that wouldn't happen is AJ can make so much more money elsewhere. So you've got to find an opponent who can make money but maybe can't make the super money to Dubois. What about someone like Pooleve or someone then?

Someone like Pulev is definitely okay, providing you fight fast afterwards, I reckon. Jermaine Franklin's tricky because he's got a good chin, and if he doesn't go down and he's gnawing away at you, then you suddenly find you've got to work, and it's the 10th round where Franklin's been and you haven't been. The Otto Valleon probably spoiled goods. Oh, what do you call Army at Bonsie?

Well, I like him, the German. Ajit Cabell. But if I'm Agit, I'm asking for a fortune, because he should have had, like, Joseph Park. Agit Cabiol and Joseph Parker, how they're invisible, it's just disgraceful. I know. So, I mean, Joe, I mean, I'm thinking about some of the Brits.

Why not go for a shoot out Adelaide's out there? Dave Allen says he won't fight him. He's already sparred of him. Joe Joyce is an option. You know, only just lost, stood on his feet against Hergovich. Hergovich is maybe... There's plenty of options, but it's going to cost them. It's going to cost them.

But there does come a point. I mean, the last two opponents of, if you were a gambling man, you would have won good money on the last two opponents going down like they did inside three rounds. and as a decent accumulator. So there is a need for, got to be careful, the words I choose, there is a need for something a little bit more testing. And as you joke to George Warren

about putting the hand in their pocket, they might have to. No, I think so. And I think people are talking about rounds. He needs rounds in the gym. But, I mean, or he needs rounds on fighting out. But I disagree with that. I think that if you get the chance

to take someone out in the first round, then you do that. As a heavy weight, you could be well behind, but the big lad lands one and it lights out, and the game's over. So I don't necessarily agree with that, that he needs rounds on fighting nights. He'd get the rounds in the gym.

If they invest in good, solid sparring partners, if he maybe goes on tour a little bit and trains and spars different top guys, would Andy Reeves, there's a name? Yeah, why not? He cost a few quid. I mean, he would cost a few quid, but he might just come down a sense before.

But you remember when Alexander Pavec in turn pro and he worked at the store, start or near to start with Teddy Atlas. Teddy Atlas used to get in fights behind closed doors in the gym. Pay the opponents, 20 and 30 and 40 and 50,000 $50,000. What? Yeah, yeah.

These slight seat, like, like good name. Well, with small gloves on. Oh, no, shit. The whole thing. Doctors, the doctor's the whole thing. Look, me. Everything. Because Paveckin was a European champion, a world

amateur, world amateur champion, European Amity Champion, Olympic champion. And, but he needed bit of, he needed rounds against seasoned men that weren't going to jump on the floor. And so he got him, I think he had at least two fights, maybe more. And I remember talking to

Teddy Atlas about that, and I remember talking to Pavekens people about that. Because Pavekins professional career is incredible. There's almost no fluff in there at all. It's all very competitive fights from scratch, because he was fast-tracked, obviously. So I'm wondering... He was doing the new...

You know what, there's well, Bonsil. Yeah, exactly. That's, yeah, doing a million, a million press, that's one thing. We have to assume he wasn't found, yeah, guilty

of any of the charges he later became, fell foul off. But something along those lines, as you say, pay some good money, get some guys in. But saying that,

are those guys out there anymore? Because, you know, there was once, you know, a great American, real journeyman. I'll tell you another route they could do, they could look at,

like, Oshik, Fury, A, A, Js, a list of their opponents. Yeah, and get guys that they fought two or three fights ago, and try and do a better job.

That's the old Frank Warren, Mickey Duff, way from the 90s, is just get a guy in to do a better job, yeah. So that would work. Yeah, I mean, you know, so in that sense, Germain Franklin becomes it. Anyway, we could debate what heavyweights will fight, what heavy weight. Some good news in the last 24 hours. Tyson Fury and another exotic location says,

no, he's not coming back now. For two weeks, we've spent, he is coming back, after six months of he's not coming back. Two weeks, they're about to announce a fight. It's going to be in when AJ on August, first or something ridiculous and now he's saying i'm not coming back he's happy he's comfortable spoke to someone tonight a guy that you know one of one of the one of the one of the one of the one of the one of the member of a big fighting family and he said no i've talked to him steve he's

not coming back well where are you on where are you on i like it i mean if he's only if he's coming back it's only for an a j faith if there's anything else then it would it would be pointless really but i um yeah stay retired you've done whatever you've everything you've done, everything you need. There's no money. How much money do you need? You know what I mean? Well, he keeps showing up in locations. You know, how much does he need? He's gotten up. He can't spend it. The family can't spend. The kids can't spend. If he stays retired, great. If he comes out of retirement and fights, AJ, it would be a great event. There was talk from people that know that he might come out of retirement and do that thing he did in Las Vegas in 2019, where he

had sort of two fights, Otto Allen and Big Tom Schwartz. That type of thing. Do you know what the issue may be, though, Ponzi? People will get bored of it. In and out of retirement. People are going to start getting fed up. If he does come back at this stage after making that statement. And people might not take too kind of him coming back and fighting Jermaine Franklin. Jermaine Franklin's had more mentions on this show than anybody.

Carl, listen, it's been a pleasure and a delight. That's Carl Frampton. We've been up in Glasgow this weekend. It's been a massive succession of Saturday nights. Lee Wood losing to Kukachi. Johnny Fisher losing to Dave Allen last week. And

in Glasgow in front of 7 or 8,000 fans who were pretty subdued at the end. Josh Taylor, returning for the first time in a year and losing quite wide in the end to the engine. Echo Essem. It's impossible to dislike Echo Essem. We wait to see what Josh Taylor will do. We'll wait to see if he continues,

but let's not forget that he is the only British man to have ever held the four belts in the modern era. He is our only undisputed. man. If Josh Taylor never fights again, no problem. If Tyson Fury never fights again, Carl Frampton's banned from fighting again. We'll be back next week. In fact, we might have a special of Ellie Scotland next week looking forward to that massive women's only fight on July the 11th at Madison Square Garden. I've been Steve Bunce and this has been without doubt five live on the road in Glasgow.

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