5 Live Boxing with Steve Bunce - The 10 Fights That Shaped Anthony Joshua

Episode Date: July 20, 2026

What was Anthony Joshua's defining victory? Which defeat left the deepest scar? Buncey is joined by Richie Woodhall to relive the ten fights that defined AJ's career. From world-title glory and unforgettable knockouts to the setbacks that changed everything, they decide which moments shaped one of Britain's greatest heavyweights.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. How did a boycott Jimmy become a billionaire from posting videos? On Good Bad Billionaire, we're going to find out how the world's most popular YouTuber, Mr Beast, made his fortune. He's buried himself in a coffin for days. Counted to 100,000 on camera. And even recreated squid games, all in an attempt to go viral on the internet. But it all started when he gave a homeless man $10,000. So is he a philanthropist reshaping capitalism?

Or is he just the king of the attention economy? Find out on Good Bad Billionaire. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. This is Five Live Boxing. It's the start of a big, big fight week. We'll be in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia all week for AJ against Christian Pranger live on Saturday night. But we launched Fight Week with a unique look at 10 of Joshua's most influential,

savage, heartbreaking and unforgettable fights. The AJ 10, if you like. You know what? I quite like that, the AJ 10. I'm Steve Bunce, and this is Five Live Boxing. Yes, I think it would be a nice change, really, to just look at some fights that have shaped Anthony Joshua, AJ. In fact, it might be a plan going forward

to look at fights that have changed other fighters. I don't know, maybe Tyson. Fury could get a mention in this, the shaping fights. I quite like that idea. And I'm with a man that's seen this change, up close and personal. covered in the sweat, dodging away from the shots when he used to take him on the pads.

It is, of course, former Commonwealth Games champion, former Olympic medalist, former European champion, former Commonwealth Pro champion, and former world champion, Richie Woodrow. Richie, first of all, a note from your colour, right? And I don't mean the shade of your T-shirt, that you've been in some unbelievable sun. Give us a clue where you've been to look as healthy as you do. I've been in a fantastic place, Steve.

North Devon Absolutely had a week in North Devon by Wollockham And it was the best holiday I think I've had every day It was nearly 30 degrees It was absolutely fantastic First time I went in the sea

It was actually warm It was You do it every year North Devon or Cornwall Don't you do the two You mix the two I go I either go Cornwall or North Devon every year for a week

I invite all my family We always get a chalet somewhere And the kids come And it's just a fantastic week but this time was special because the weather was just so good. Okay, Richie Boy, this is what we're going to do. We're going to look at 10 big AJ fights. Now, he doesn't win them all, and they're not all for world titles,

but they're all monumental. They all mean something. They're all part of the ridiculous, fantastic journey he's been. Now, we're going to start at World Harrogay Box Cup, and that was back in June of 2010 when he beat Otto Vallet. Yes, Otto Valle in the final. Number two, August of 2012, the Olympic final against the great Italian Roberto Camarelli.

We were both there, we were both working. Now, fight number three, it's Dillian White at the O2 for the British title, December 2015. Fight number four is to fight immediately after Dillian White, April 2016, the unexpected crack at the World IBF Heavyweight title, against unbeaten Charles Martin. At the O2, finished in the second. We all like that one.

The next one's a year later. 29th of April, 2017. Big Vladimir Klitsko, finished in the 11th, one of the all-time great fights. Now, fight number six is really two fights. It's the pair of fights in 2019 with Andy Ruiz. The first one, Madison Square Garden,

he lost. The second one against Andy to Fridge Ruiz, because, well, in all fairness, he'd lost his way. That took place in. Riyadh. That's number six, those two fights. Now, number seven, the two fights against Alexander Usoc, and they're both very different, but there's lots of similarities. They took place in September 2021 and August of 2020. Fight number eight, we're back in Riyadh,

back in Saudi Arabia. It's March, 2004, and in the ring, it's Frances enganu. Finishes in the second, brutal story, brutal backstory. Number nine, September 2024. Once again, you and I were there at ringside, touching the canvas as we watched it. Daniel Dubois, AJ lost in the fifth round for the IBF heavyweight title. That was sensational.

What a fight. And also lots of stories involved. And the final one I'm picking, and it might upset people, but there's a reason for it, and you and I are going to discuss that reason, is Jake Paul in Miami last December, finished in the six round,

big argument that it should have finished earlier. We'll talk about those. Now, as I say, I could lie about number one on that list and say, I remember sitting ringside at the Harrogate Box Cup having paid five quid, 10 quid or something, and watching Otto Vallin against AJ, watching AJ Winnie's second Harrogay Box Cup title. But that would be a lie. Sure, I was there, probably watching Katie Taylor,

but I don't remember watching Anthony Joshua, even though I think he'd won an ABA title at the time. I hold my hands up. And I could so easily lie about it, Rich, but I'm not going to do that. That's not the way I do business, and it's certainly not the way you do business. Well, this put him on the map for me. I hadn't heard of him before this win, but when he won the Harringatee box cup, then shortly after, then he came into GB, Steve then.

That's what I thought. Late that year or early, I think late 2010, GV. 2010. Late 2010 is when he come on to the squad. So that's when I first. And I remember him, I remember his first session. I remember seeing this guy, you know, huge guy, looked in great shape, took him on the pads, I think probably this first session when we did padwork and I could feel the power straight away.

You know, you know, both hands, and you knew then that he could be potentially something special, but you just don't know how it's going to go. But I always look back at that win, the Harangay Cup, because shortly after that comes into the squad, and then in 2011, you know, we put him into anchor it in Turkey and the Euro. pushed him. Let's get that. Yeah, that's right. That was a push job. Let's get it right. And he had two good wins.

Then he got, I think he got beat against the Romanian Nistol. Stop by him, stopped on his feet. Exactly, you know, which we were pleased with his overall performance. But two or three months later, Steve, he's in the world. He goes to Baku in Azerbaijan. And I think this is one of his best performances as an amateur. He fights six times. I know.

Five times he won the final. Is it Magidog. Magidog. He was also from Azerbaijan. The President's in the arena. The President's in the arena, watching the final. Yeah, I remember that clear as a bell. And I thought he won it, but he didn't get it.

Which he was never going to get that, was it? Come on. He was never going to get it. But yeah, and it all stems from that Haringay Cup victory when he comes on then to the squad. And fair play to Rob McCracken, because Rob McCracken says, he put a lot of faith into him there. And he says, right, yeah, we'll put him into the Europeans,

we'll put him into the worlds. And, you know, the rest is history because he comes through with flying colours, really. That blooding process is a horrible expression, but it's true. We did that with Delicious Ori before the Commonwealth Games, four years ago, and he won the gold medal. We put him, sending him to the Worlds, I think, in Belgrade, well over his head, but he had to fight.

We also did it with Demar Thomas, who hopefully will get a gold in the next two weeks, the Super Heardweight who's a, oh, I'm a massive fan of, and I know you are a massive fan of. He was pushed a bit to the Worlds last year. You know, in an ideal world, he might have had another break, because he's only 20 or 21 years of age or whatever it is.

But we did push him. But a fight, I was going to do Madidov in that final, I was going to do that. Don't get me wrong. But I've chosen instead to do the Olympics the following year. We're in London. He has a beats Savon. Yeah. Okay.

He's a tough way. He's looking there. He's looking. He could have gone the other way. If he went the other way, I don't think we would have complained. Then he beats Gilesia. Then he beats Ivan Ditchco. Now that's a good trio of wins.

About how hard they are. The Ditchco was a great performance. And he comes up in the final against Roberto Camerelli that I think is an Italian policeman. Who was the reigning Olympic gold medalist? The AJ had beat him. him, if I'm not mistaken, earlier in a year somewhere. But that doesn't take it away from the pressure that was on AJ's shoulders. Let's get

that right. Big Ordley was in the house. Lennox Lewis was in the house and a nation expected. Fight number two is that final, that Olympic final. It's monumental, Rich. Yeah, it is. Because you've said it, Steve, there was massive pressure on the lad. Let's get it right.

You know, he'd had a certain experience at the Euros and the worlds the year before. But this was something different. it's a home games, every single boxing session down at that was it, the... The Excel. The Excel. It was the Excel, yeah.

The Excel centre. It was packed, Steve. You couldn't get a seat anywhere. Every session. Absolutely. You know, for the prelims and everything. So there was so much pressure on Anthony Joshua, and he delivered, listen, it's a tough fight.

Yeah, count back. I think it was 18, 18. It was 18, 18, yeah. You know, Camerelli's a reign. Olympic champion. Great amateur. What an amateur. Fantastic fighter as well.

But, you know, AJ comes through, and I'll always remember, because I was commenting on, on, son, waiting on that countback. There seemed to be a gap of a post. It seemed like 20 minutes. No, waiting for that decision. It was about seven minutes. It genuinely was, yeah.

Because everyone was waiting. It was a countback. It was tense. It was sort of the final fight of the whole tournament of the Olympic Games. It's the last fight before the closing. Before the closing, it was on a Saturday, but it doesn't matter. We still like the idea of that last fight.

And it was all on Anthony Joshua winning that gold, and they raised his hand, and the place, the roof took off me. It was fantastic. The one thing I remember was talking to him after that fight, later that evening or night after the press comments, was how exhausted he was. Yeah.

But the adrenaline had got him through the week. You pick up injuries like you do when you have three hard fights against three big lumps like Savon, Zhang and Ditchco, and then against a giant lump like Camerrelli. You have to fight your heart. heart out and the adrenaline got him through the fight got him through the post fight got him through the next couple of hours but i saw him a few hours later yeah and he would drain he looked like

about a world to wait he was at the kind of he looked like the kind of fighter that might go to bed for a week yeah yeah but steve you you remember certain times as a as a commentator and that one sticks in my mind that gap of waiting for that decision and the crowd the tension and then And when his hand was raised, it was just an incredible feeling for myself, obviously for him, but as a commentator, because obviously I helped train him for all those games and to see what he came through and what he did and to win that gold. That was a moment that I will never forget as a commentator. Now, fight number three, Rich, is a rematch, but I'm not going to do the first of their two fights.

It's basically it's when he fights Dillian White. This is at the O2, and this is in December 2015. Now, Dillian was 16 and zero going in, I think. AJ was 14 and zero going in, mostly sopages. Now, they had met in Dillian's first fight, and I think AJ's second, third or full fight, there's a bit of dispute over that. At a place called the Boston Arms,

pubbing, Tuffnell Park. Again, it was probably a tenor on the door, and that was on an Islington show, if I'm not mistaken. I stand to be corrected on that. I could speak to Johnny Oliver, and Sean Murphy was in his corner. And that was a brutal little slug fest

where AJ gets clipped and goes over and gets up and literally carries on throwing punches. He loses that one. So now it's a grudge match for the British title. And by this stage, I say it's only AJ's 15th fight, if I'm not mistaken, which... But he's a major attraction. Major attraction, yeah. And what a fight this was, by the way.

This was a hell of a fight, Steve. The vacant title, it was a very personal fight because obviously... It's ugly. AJ's got a group of friends. Dillian White's got a group of friends. I don't think they'd get armed at different parts of London or the same part of London. Stephen part of London, massive understatement, they hated each other.

Exactly. So they just did not get on. So this meant not only a lot to the fighters, but to the group of people that surround them. They're people that they hang out. It was tense in there that night, Richie boy. And the people who they hang out with, it really meant so much.

And I think for the first time really in his career, he was really tested in this fight. And sort of his tactics in one sense went out the window. This was a grudge match. Art ruled his head, mate. Absolutely. Because he started doing things. And I was thinking, Anthony...

Started having a fight! Yeah, he started having a fight. Auntie, use your height, use your reach. Because obviously, I was doing a lot of contact with Anthony Joshua. Then I was to pad him and help with the training when he come up to Sheffield. You know, because obviously... Because at that point, he's officially still with Tony Sims, but he's doing a lot of work, Robert Crack. A lot of work with Rod McCracken.

And he used to come into camp up in Sheffield. So I did a lot of work with him. So obviously, I wanted him to win the fight. And I've seen him doing things in the contest, which was... I was pulling my air out saying, listen, what you're doing? What you're doing? You're letting this lad in. Dillian's a good fighter. And Dillian, on his own terms, can have a good scrap mate.

This is a crunch fight. The winner of this, the fight's really going somewhere. And I just thought he just, he got drawn in too much. Then he become a 50-50, a bit of a slug fest, if you like. But, you know, he came through, he caught him, it becomes quality shots. And one right-up-a-cut was the finishing shot, which was an absolute peach of a punch. but it was a up until then it was a toe-to-to-to-tow battle, out-and-out scrap, O-2 Arena,

crowd going wild, fantastic fight. But he just showed in that fight also that he can stand and he can have a row as well as box at range. So, yeah, okay, you've got to take your hat off to him for that. But just for me, tactically, tactics went out of the window. He did his own thing. Yeah, but it showed us to say that guts and stuff. Now, what's interested about that fight is it's timing.

So that's December 2015. few weeks earlier, and only a couple of weeks earlier, Tyson Fury had won the world title. We were ringside in Dusseldorf. We forget that. Yeah, that's right, yeah. Sometimes you've got to place fights historically. Yeah, amazing.

I remember that one. Absolutely. And what does happen in and around this time is that Tyson's stripped of the IBF belt. You remember, he gets stripped of the IBF belt. Right, yeah, yeah. So Charles Martin fights, fights Vyaxlov, Glasgow, about 50 days after Tyson Fury had won the world title. And then Martin pulls off the shock of all shocks to beat Vlad's.

to beat Glasgow. He's meant to lose. And then Eddie Hearn, being a smart operator, goes into Charles Martin with a massive offer, and it was a massive offer, to make the fight with Charles Martin against AJ. Now, here's an interesting thing about Charles Martin. Now, we know AJ blows him away in two rounds. This is my fight number four. Do you know Charles Martin's record going into this? You're the kind of person that's already looked it up. It's stunning. We forget. 23 and 0 with one draw with 21 knockouts. Yeah, he was a nasty, big.

And when he arrived here, he was confident, he was cocky. But that AJ, and I want to sort of get to the heart of this. And he was a Southball, Steve. And he was a Southball, yeah, which AJ points out. That AJ was a different AJ. Yeah, definitely. You know what's interesting? This is when Tony Sims.

A fearless AJ, that was. He walks to the centre of the ring when they touch gloves at the start of the fight with Max McCracken by his side. Rob's not officially yet in the cross. corner and Tony Sims is back in the corner. I think it's Tony's going to be Tony's last fight if I'm not mistaken. But he walks out with Max and that night I truly believe, I truly believe that was a fearless, I loved that AJ that night. Okay, he was maybe allowed himself to be caught but boy, oh boy, he was exciting that night. What a fight that

was. Yeah, he had the confidence going in. You could see it, couldn't you, against Charles Martin. Who, like you said, Steve, was a Southport had 21 KOs on his record. It's all overlooked. It was a really tough Ukrainian fighter. Broke it broke his heart. Yeah, he knocked him out in three rounds. Absolutely. And so this on paper is a dangerous fight.

It really is. Okay, you beat Dillian White for the British title, which is a great performance. Now you're going to world level. And he, but I thought, I watched this fight the other night, Steve, when I was doing a bit of research on the certain fights. And he times his right hand to perfection in that, in that contest,

especially the one that actually. finishes the job. That's not just him overpowering. No, not at all. It's a smart fight. No, you watch, you watch. It's a slow jab that comes out from Martin and it's a really quick counter from AJ, instant counter, bang on the button, power there,

literally knocks him off his feet. And it was a really good performance, but on paper, that was a tricky fight against a tough, hard opponent who had 21 knockouts. That's a dangerous opponent, but AJ saw him out, mate. problem. And in an ideal world, Richard,

this seems like a really odd thing to say because AJ's just knocked out a man who'd never been beaten to win the world title. In an ideal world, should AJ have had three or four more fights before fighting for a world title? Because it's not about winning, it's about keeping it and it's about

growing with the belt. Could he? In an ideal world? In an ideal world, I thought, personally, I remember that contest and I remember it being a risk. I always remember that fight was a risk. And Yeah, in an ideal world, he probably needed two more fights before that. Yeah, because he's a dangerous kid, 21 knockouts. He was unbeaten.

I mean, the guy was a good fighter. Southpour as well, which can be a bit tricky for people. But like I say, I think it was obviously good matchmaking and good timing for taking the fight because AJ had the confidence, but he didn't just overpower him. He did it behind his boxing. It was a slow shot that'd come at him, and he counted with a lovely right hand and got the job done. And it was a great move by Eddie Hearn. He went bold.

Yeah, fair play a lot. He paid Martin a lot of money. And also Martin then actually received a percentage of a couple of AJ fights going forward, which was a smart move by Martin's people. I've got to tell you, I was around them in the week of that fight. And they really thought that Eddie and AJ had made a mistake. Which, I'm going to jump you forward here, mate, to, you know where I'm going next. Big Vlad, outdoors at Wembley, launching a source.

Star launching everything. April 2017. I'm not even sure where to start with this. We forget how big the buildup was, how unique the builder was. Then we go outside with 80,000 or plus at Wembley. No one thought we'd do 80,000, including Eddie and Barry Hearn.

Let's get that right. What a night. What a night. And I think when Anthony Joshua's career is over and he looks back, this fight for me will, probably be his peak performance, Steve. It really will. A peak performance contest.

His third defence at Wembley, his 19th fight. Klitschko's 28th World Title Fights. You couldn't get a tougher opponent. And this fight, it really had it all because it started really quick. If you remember, Clitchco up on his toes, bouncing around like a middleweight and AJ having to adapt to that. But I remember it was a fantastic fifth round for AJ. I think he puts him down.

He drops him in front of us. You remember where we were talking right in front of us. We can see the blood coming out of his heart. We think he's going to finish him here. But then amazingly, in the sixth round, Klitsko shows what a great former champion he's been. And he nearly finishes AJ with a couple of real big shots. And that fifth and sixth round, Steve,

they're both one punch away from victory, either of them. Or one punch away from defeat. Or defeat, yes. Because I'll tell you, when AJ goes down, And I'm convinced about this, Rich. I've watched this again and again and again. I think he's out when he goes down. I think he wakes up, bang, when he hits the canvas.

I really do. Yeah. It's an incredible couple of rounds. Both men, like I say, I think one punch from victory or one punch from defeat. But moving on in the fight, Steve, it's a close fight, but you see AJ again, growing in confidence, a young, fearless fighter in AJ, although he's developing and maturing as a champion, in his third defence. But right at the start of the 11th round,

the final round, the first or second punch, he catches Clitchcoe with an absolute cracking right hand. And that really starts the ball rolling. And again, as the round goes on, and the crowd are going wild, it was another right-upacut that, for me, was the punch of the contest, the famous one. And like I say, a tremendous fight

that could have gone either way at one point, but that for me is his career best performance when he retains the title against Vladimir Klitsko. And then there's a point in that fight. Robert McCracken, by this point, is in the corner. Tony Sims has moved away. Rob's in the corner officially. And Rob tells me that at the end of the sixth round,

I know you know this story as well. AJ comes back. Now, bear in mind, he's been on the floor. I think he's out, but he wakes up. He comes around and when he hits the floor. He gets up, he survives around. Goes back to the corner, and he looks Rob in the eyes and says,

don't worry, I'm going to take a round or two off. I'm telling you, yeah Now that to me That shows That's class, that's smart What I'm building up to here is That's fight number five My fight number six

Are the two fights with Ruiz So we're just with rattle through them How did a boycott Jimmy Become a billionaire from posting videos On good, bad billionaire We're going to find out How the world's most popular YouTuber Mr Beast made his fortune

He's buried himself in a coffin for days counted to 100,000 on camera and even recreated squid games all in an attempt to go viral on the internet. But it all started when he gave a homeless man $10,000. So is he a philanthropist reshaping capitalism? Or is he just the king of the attention economy? Find out on good bad billionaire.

Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. The first of them, June 19, it's when Big Baby Miller pulls out of the fall. So he gets thrown out of the fight because he's done, he's been, He's been convicted of multiple drugs violations. And in steps, Ruiz. This is a dangerous kid, that, Steve.

Now, it's a dangerous kid all the way, but we all got carried away. Yeah, we did. He'll be smiling his big belly. Yeah. So in the third round, Rich, Briseu's never been dropped. Yeah. Get dropped. You know I've told this story last night.

It gets dropped. Gets dropped heavily. Yeah. However, Rich, he's right in front of our position. His eyes are clear. Yeah. 30 seconds later, AJ's on the floor. His eyes aren't clear.

I think I'm going to make a case for that third round in June of 2019 inside a sold-out packed Madison Square Garden. That's a massive round in AJ's career because he walks away from dropping Marie smiling. 40 seconds later he's on the canvas, badly hurt. More hurt than I think he's ever been. I agree, Steve. In all honesty, though, I don't think he looked right, right from the word go.

Big up. And he couldn't establish his job. He couldn't keep the man at bay. although he steps it up in that third round and he puts Ruiz down. Then, for me, the younger AJ, the younger inexperienced AJ, he's not experienced no, Steve.

What I'm trying to say is an older AJ in his younger days sort of tried to finish him. He got too reckless. So it reminded me of a younger AJ who was inexperienced trying to finish off this guy. He sort of forgot who he is.

and the experience that he's got, he should have slowed down, if anything. Picked his finish. Exactly. Do you know what I mean, Steve? Because he had to be beaten. He reminded me of a younger age, they're trying to finish it off,

but he just walks into a good shot. By this point, he's not as reckless, and he doesn't need to be as reckless, because the men are dangerous. They don't have a rematch, Rich. We go out to Saudi Arabia at the end of the year. First time we'd been, you and I, first time you and I had been out to Riyadh.

We were on the outskirts of Rial. It's incredible, incredible night. Pored with rain like you wouldn't believe. Unbelievable. We thought our kit. Luckily, Paddy, the engineer, who's now paddy the top producer in the world. I have to get that in once each show.

It's in my contract. I have to say top producer in the world. He also does F1 and about Cillian other sports. Paddy keeps the kit dry. We broadcast. It's not a classic, but I love, that's why I've included it as my 6B, if you like. He boxes Andy Ruiz's ears off.

Now, we know Andy Ruiz had lost a fight because he'd lost it at the door of a fridge in the previous few months. We know all of that. But AJ was fighting a lot of demons that night and under unbelievable pressure, I thought he looked terrific in that fight. That was a smart AJ.

Now, the criticism is that that was the start of him overthinking fights. Well, you know, there's horses for courses, Steve. And I think Rob McCracken has to take a lot of credit for this as well. I think they knew then, they realized Andy Ruiz, you know, he isn't just a fighter with a big belly. This kid can fight a little bit. And they may have underestimated him in the first fight.

Who knows? but they certainly didn't underestimate him in the second fight. And I think it was Rob's tactics saying, listen, you've got to box at distance with this guy, take no chance at really. He's smart. Everything at long range. And he did what he had to do.

I thought this was a terrific display. He got a lot of actually negative coverage over it because he didn't engage. But like I say, there's more than one way to skin the cat. You know what I mean? And he boxed at range. He boxed well behind his jab, the right hand. His movement was excellent.

And Ruiz could be. not adapt and get to him. It was horses for courses. He did the right thing. I thought this was a really good display from Anthony Joshua. And late on the Sunday night, the day after the fight,

AJ explained all of the things that went wrong in the first fight. And it wasn't by way of excuse. It was by way of just letting us know that there were some problems, which obviously we knew. Now, the next two fights I've lumped into one of the Ussick fights.

One at Tottenham Hot Spurs in September of 2021 and won the following summer. out in Jeddah. I'm don't know if it's the same venue where he's fighting this weekend. It might very well be. And they're both strange fights and there's strange parts of these.

There's all kinds of accusations about overthinking. The corners were a bit of a mess rich. There's three or four people over the space of those two fights. And then, of course, there's that famous incident before the first fight at Spurs.

When AJ enters the ring after a long ring walk and he stops on the ring, and he has a conversation with Clifton Mitchell. Yeah, it's unbelievable. And he has a conversation with Clifton Mitchell. And I, who'd fought for the British heavyweight title, who had been 15 years earlier.

And I asked Clifton about this recently, about three or four months ago. And I said, what did you talk about? And I knew farewell what they talked about because A.J. had told me. And he said, and he just shook his head, Clifton. He said, the AJ was asking me, best way to count the Southport punches.

They're in the ring after a 12-week training camp. O'SIC's in the opposite corner, the challenge of the world titles. And AJ's after in, Clifton Mitchell, one of the security guards, what to do against the Southport. Unbelievable, Rich. Unbelievable.

Very strange situation. A lot of people in his life back then, Steve, as well. Too many people. Probably shouldn't have been there in terms of around the training program. A lot of interference, I would say. And he listens. He may be listening to too many people at this point. One of AJ's problems is, you know,

he gets on with so many people and he does. He is taking in very easily and he listens to people's opinions. and he probably takes them a little bit too far. And listen, it's an unbelievable situation with Clifton Mitchell, what happened there. The fight itself, I don't think, I've watched the fight several times. He just couldn't adapt and keep with the movement, handle the movement, rather, of Alexander Usick, which was a master's play. In the rematch, he was closer.

He did do some adjustments in the rematch. The rematch was different because he went forward a lot more. He hurt him to the body several times. But in that first fight, he was a little bit mesmerized by all. And he just couldn't cope with the movement. And, you know, he's used to pushing people back and getting them back on the ropes. Where with Usik, he never goes back to the ropes. He circles all the time.

Pivots left. Yeah, he's a very good fighter. But, yeah, it was a disappointing display. What I also find disappointing was that I don't think Ucic, the first fight with Ucic. I don't think it was a mandatory. Am I mistaken there? Yeah, I think you're right. So if it wasn't a mandatory, then whoever's agreed for the fight,

then it's a little bit, in my opinion, then that's where... I think people had seen him against Derek Del Boy, Chisora, and the story was that he'd struggled, which he didn't. He'd struggled, he didn't struggle? He had to adjust his feet for two rounds. You had two fights at heavy, didn't he? Chaz Wetherspoon and Chisora. And Del Boy.

And they've accepted this fight. Now, you know, maybe that was the mistake. You know what I mean? Because he'll look back in his career again and think, I shouldn't really maybe it took that fight then. So it loses both of those fights and then moving on to my fight number eight

which is Francis Engano in March of 2024. By then, Robert McCracken's gone. The Americans Robert Garcia and Derek James have come and gone. They all had periods before 2023 where they were in the corner or part of the corner, part of the confusion, part of the chaos,

part of the, let's not mince our words here, part of the mixed messages. Part of what made AJ look at times like a bewildering shadow of the previous AJ. Then we come through Inganu, Ben Davinson is in the corner. Too many influences you see. He stripped down loads of things, Ben, and we like what we were saying. And I don't know about you, but Inganu, I like this particularly. Because five months earlier, remember, Inganu, you and I were out in Saudi Arabia,

had dropped Tyson Fury, who was dead currently the WBC Heverweight Champion in the world, and had lost on a split to Fury. He could have got the decision, gets in their ring with AJ, And AJ was, well, it was like the AJ from the start of his career. Absolutely. This was the AJ with attitude. This was the nasty AJ. But Steve, I would say it was the Tyson-Fewy fight that paved the weight for the victory

for Anthony Joshua because the surprise was out, you know, there was no surprise with Ngarnan now. We knew what, he knew what he was up against. He was up against a dangerous guy. If you fight, he's fine. I mean, you've got to give Tyson Fury a lot of credit, actually, for going into that and gone on a fight. He's the unknown.

He's the unknown on Ghanu, who had a great record in the UFC. I know it's a different discipline, but it's a powerful guy. And Tyson Fuey said, okay, let's take him on, no problem at all. But he did give him some problems. That surprise then is out the bag. And with AJ, he knew what he was up against. He knew how to fight this kid. He got his timing right.

The right hand again was absolutely spot on. Nasty as punts his five three years. And Steve, but he does it again. In an educated way, staying back, being calm, being patient, and letting it go at the right time. I thought, again, great display, but it's probably down to Tyson's furious performance that's got him that victory in that manner. So, Rich, now we move on a few months later. Outdoors at Wembley, 70,000. And it's Daniel Dubois against Anthony Joshua. And they'd been talked for five, six years about how Dubois had dropped age.

in training, something that AJ had denied and something that Dubois had kind of, you know, hadn't really insisted on, but his promoter at the time, Frank Warren had pushed it when he turned pro. That's irrelevant. You know, Dubois had been in some great fights at that point, some controversial fights, some odd endings. We come to this fight. Again, Ben Davidson is in the corner. Daniel Dubois is there. Now, this is a bizarre fight because I have interpretations of this fight that don't necessarily go with the sort of the general feeling and sense of. Let's just do the facts. AJ is over in the first, the third, the fourth, and for the final time in the fifth.

What did you make of the fight, Rich? What did you? Do we do this one together? We were in sight together? I think we were. Yeah, we will, yeah. It's been so many, son, so many. You know, it's an old line versus young lion situation.

Most definitely, Dubar, 24, AJ 34. A.J. 34. A lot of history between them in terms of the... the training camps that they had down at G.B. And let's face it here. I, like I said this many times. I remember AJ actually helping Daniel Dubois because he was a young kid back there,

2015, 2016, Daniel DeBre on the GB squad. AJ up at G, up at GB, because he was training up in Sheffield. And he used to help out. He used to help him. And he used to actually bring him through. There were some good spars, definitely. But I always think that AJ will look.

Look at this fight. You look back in his career, probably with a bit of regret here. Yeah. In this... This is where I'm going with my interpretation. I'm with you on that,

Rich. Now, it's a fantastic performance from De Bois. Let's get it right. He's a young, hungry fighter, a champion defending his title. And the dynamics had changed Steve

since those days back at G.B. He's a totally different fighter indeed. AJ goes into the fight, confident that he can still beat, he could beat him. But things were totally different. and I just don't think he was expecting

such a hard hitting Daniel Du Bois from the very first bell and someone who was so hungry for it. I don't think AJ expected that which was a little bit surprising but I think like I say you'll look back at this fight with a bit of regret and he probably underestimated

how much Daniel DeBois had improved. A great win for Dubois. I completely agree with it. There's a point at the end of the fourth round when he's in the corner and Ben Davison talks to him and AJ's dismissive. He's already been on the floor three times at this point.

And he's dismissing Dubois. He wants to go out in the fifth, which he does. And he gets knocked out because he backs Dubois up. And he sets himself to throw the wrong punch from that position. Jets called brilliant all over. Now, that was also a massive tale then because we're now going to work out how he comes back from that. He's lost to Ussick twice.

He's lost to Ruiz, which he's avenged. He's failed to avenged the Uyghur. first defeat. He's now been knocked out, counted out, in five rounds in front of 90,000 people. And we know it's going to be a slow road back. The final fight I'm going to do, and this, you know, people might go, oh, Buncey, can't include this. I can include this because there's a reason why I'm including this. And this is last December in Miami, fight that finished in the six round, when he finally knocked out Jake Paul. Now, this is, at this point, he's no longer with Ben Davidson. He's with team

Usik and the coach we think is I go Golob who's in the corner of him but more than that, the entire Ussick team are around him. Now this is an odd fight and the reason why I've included it, because in some ways it exposes AJ's insecurities and it exposes

his overthinking. Yeah, overthinking. It knocks him out in the sixth round thing it is, but I want to put it to you, Richard Woodall. The AJ that made his pro debut in 2013. The AJ that fought Dillian White in 2015. He would have walked through any version of Jake Paul in less than a round. Yeah, less than a minute. I said at the time, if this fight goes over four rounds,

then it's a major victory for Jake Paul. Absolutely. That's what I said. I remember saying that because I didn't, I couldn't see Jake Paul lasting three to four rounds with Anthony Joshua. Now, that Anthony Joshua. That daintiffish one. I think, obviously, the press had built this fight up, this, that and you're there.

he'd had a couple of good performances. What was he, 12 and 1 at the time, something like that, Jake, Jake, Paul. Jake's doing his business. He's a decent kid. Lost the Tommy Fury. He's a way, though. He's a novice professional. He's a good noise.

But this AJ, with the experience that he's had, Steve, and the defeats that he's had, he's thinking, I'd just better watch what I'm doing here, which, like I said, that's a totally different AJ. Don't fall over your feet. Exactly. Don't miss wild with a punch and end up facing out in the crowd and giving an occasion for a comedy moment. The AJ that, you know, the AJ that fought Dillian White, that, that AJ, I'm telling

you, Jake Paul wouldn't have lasted 60 seconds. I'm on your side there. It wouldn't last, it wouldn't last it, wouldn't last it a minute against him. How man is that rich? Yeah, you know, he's someone that has changed, obviously with experience, got the job done in the end, but it went six round. I was amazed and fair play to Jake Paul. Fair play to him.

You know, and it's all right, everyone's saying, yeah, I'd have got in there for 30 million quid. Well, he did get in there. And by the way, he got his job. jaw broke with that last right hand. So fair play to him. But yes, it's a different AJ now, Steve. So, Rich, without even looking at Christian Pranger this weekend and without throwing it

forward to a potential fight with Tyson Fury, assuming they both come through this weekend's fight sometime in October or November. It has been a journey following AJ, hasn't it? It has been a journey because it's not been a straight journey. There's been the ups and downs. There's been the changes in corner, loads of them. There's been the changes in styles, loads of. of them, it's sometimes a bit hard to keep up.

What, AJ, are we going to see? Yeah, it has. And I spoke with AJ at the last place that we've been, Steve. I just want to remember now. It was in Egypt. In Egypt, yeah, when we were out there. We've seen him, didn't we, literally coming home on the plane. You had access, no one else did, no one else did. You sit down with him on the plane foot. Yeah, and a good chat with him, you know.

Let me just tell people, everyone's getting off this plane. AJ's in the front seat, but they're getting him off last for whatever reason. So everyone has to walk down the aisle and 260 people nod at AJ and try and get a picture. They can't. He pulls Richie over in a cuddle, sticks him next to him for about three or four minutes. No one got off the plane to Richard gone

so they could walk past and nod at AJ. To tell what, AJ had still be on that plane now shaking hands, wouldn't he? He'd swear he would. It was brilliant just to talk to him again. I said to him, when you come back to GB, and he said, yeah, he was laughing. He said, will you take me on the pads again?

I said, no problem. So yeah, it was great. It has been a fantastic journey with him. Are you over yet, son? You know, well, it's not over, no. Obviously, we all hope that he comes through this fight. Tyson Fury comes through his fights. And that's the big one that still everyone wants to see.

Been a fantastic journey from Olympic gold to winning world titles, losing world titles, and now probably heading, hopefully, forward to probably the biggest fighting in British boxing history if he gets in on with Tyson Fury. Richie, it's been a delight and a pleasure talking to your son, even though I'm a little bit envious of your son, Tan. It's been...

Get down to Devon, Steve. Oh, if I can. I'd tell you, I'd go tomorrow afternoon. I'd tell you what, it has been amazing covering AJ for this long, from all those days back, the Otto Vallin fight, the Harrowingale Box Cup in 2010. Okay, I've already admitted I didn't see it, but I was there.

It was happening 50 feet from where I wasn't looking. I was watching something else, probably some 16-year-old kid from Repton, whose dad had driven me mad to watch him, which is also what happens at the Haringay Box Cup. Richie, it's been a delight going through these 10 fights or more like 13 or whatever it was, an absolute delight and a pleasure.

We will be in Jeddah, the BBC, all week. We have the fight live on Saturday night between him and Christian Pringer. It's the last fight before the showdown that we've been waiting for now for about six or seven years. We'll have all sorts of stuff this week. Plus there's all sorts of stuff coming out from the BBC. A boxing content on the BBC is growing.

It's expanding. I'll be here talking to people all week, doing a preview, meeting with fighting. sitting down with fighters, talking to this guy, talking to that guy, wandering around in Jeddah where it's about 110. I'll have to do all my walking on my own because Richie's at the Commonwealth Games,

and he's letting me out, he's giving me a pass to run Woodall's tours, which are our walking tours when we go away places. And yes, we have been in 15 countries, and yes, we have been on a journey. That's not over yet either. I've been Steve Bunce, and this has been Five Live Boxing.

So much sport today and all the goals as they go in, up and down the leagues. is five live sports. It's all right to the lights and the foot in a floor. To ball him, it's not to stop out. Everyone's standing around the 18th green. Overhead kick him!

He shows to the centre. Go do it! Oh, the right head and the former champion is down. The home of the world's greatest sporting events. Listen on BBC Sounds. How did a boycott Jimmy become a billionaire from posting videos? On good, bad billionaire.

We're going to find out how the world's most popular YouTuber, Mr. Beast, made his fortune. He's buried himself in a coffin for days. Counted to 100,000 on camera. And even recreated squid games, all in an attempt to go viral on the internet. But it all started when he gave a homeless man $10,000. So is he a philanthropist reshaping capitalism? Or is he just the king of the attention economy?

Find out on Good Bad Billionaire. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.