5 Live Boxing with Steve Bunce - The Boxing Board Ep. 1 | Who Sits at the Top of the Heavyweight Tree?

Episode Date: August 26, 2026

Who sits at the top of boxing’s heavyweight tree, not just today but across every era? Chairman Ade Oladipo is joined by boxing trainer and online sensation Frank Gilfeather, alongside rising heavyweight star Johnny Fisher, for a no-holds-barred meeting of The Boxing Board.The panel tackles the current crop of giants and a tantalising fantasy fight: how would Oleksandr Usyk fare against Lennox Lewis? Johnny reveals which former heavyweight champion would give him the biggest fright when the bell rings, while Frank draws on his encyclopaedic knowledge to share the remarkable and hilarious tale of Sonny Liston’s visit to a Paisley housing estate.Then the board looks back to the radio era, debating who was king when boxing captured the nation’s imagination, and whether the sport has lost some of that meaning today. After all the arguments, memories and bold claims, only one question remains: who does the board place at the summit of heavyweight history?

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. Hello, Greg Jenner here. I'm the host of You're Dead to Me, the BBC comedy show that takes history seriously. Every episode, I pair up a top historian with a fantastic comedian and we have a lovely, funny, fascinating chat about a different subject from world history. And in this new series, we're beginning with an epic voyage through the story of Homer, the Iliad and The Odyssey. And that's with Kyle Smith Bino joining us. And then we'll be learning about Francis Galton and the racist discontal. accredited pseudoscience of eugenics with Desiree Birch. We'll meet many medieval saints in their bone boxes with Rachel Parrott.

So if that sounds like your sort of thing, listen to You're Dead to Me, wherever you get your podcast. Thank you. Bye. Welcome to the boxing board. I'm Adi O'Dipo, and I'm here to settle once and for all some of the biggest debate in boxing. Each week, I'm joined by two guests from the world of boxing to deliberate and dispute four big questions under one main. category. And then it's over to our mystery judge and of course you at home to make that all important final call. We're going to choose our undisputed champions and they're going to enter the boxing board Hall of Fame. Who is the best heavyweight of all time? It'd be hard to look

past. Because he's just a bludgeoner. He'll bludgeon you. But then when another bully came to him, there was a bit of an issue. We're on the 12th floor. He said, if I get any more of this nonsense from you, you're going out that window. He said at the sunny, he'll listen. No, Bosch. This is the boxing board. What's going on, people? Welcome to the boxing board. I am Adiola Depot.

I am your chairman. And we have a wonderful, delectable medley of guests with me today. We have the historian that is Frank Guilfeather, who is literally the man of men. Because this man knows everything about the sport of boxing, and he's going to test my knowledge today. This guy has been around for so long.

I forgot how long he's been around. for. No, look, he's trained with the likes of Sugar Ray Robinson, Ken Buchanan, who's made with the Greatish British Box of all time, by the way, and he does a lot of stuff on Instagram. So if you don't know Frank Guilfever, you will today. And

as it's heavyweight, we've got to have a heavyweight, and we've got a big boy here. This floor has been reinforced because the Ronford Ball is in the building Mr. Johnny Fisher as well. How are we, gents? Good to see you. Good to see you, Frank. Yeah. Good to see you, Frank. Looking sharp. I'm looking forward.

No pressure, by the way, when you're talking about me being a historian. No. It's really just because I'm ancient. That's all. I remember things. I didn't want to say that, but this is true, Frank.

This is true. I'm right at the opposite of the age scale was you, Johnny. I'm in a bit of trouble here because we do have an encyclopedia of knowledge opposite me and you, Addy, as well. You've got extensive knowledge.

But you're the one that's been in the ring, Johnny. I am. You've got knowledge of throwing punches and taken, sorry, and taken a couple, John. I've taken a few in my time. Yeah, yeah. We're talking, the big boys.

And we're going to talk who sits atop of the heavyweight boxing landscape. And what we've done, we've broken this down into four categories. This would have been impossible

if we just did that, right? So we've gone the modern era. So we're talking 2000 and up. And you guys know some of the names in the modern era, the great Alexander Usik, Vitalik Klitsko, Vladimir Klichko,

Mr. Dr. Stilhammer, Mr. Docton Iron Fist. And obviously, we call him a Brit or Canadian, Lennox Lewis. That debate will be had. We're talking the golden era of the heavyweight division, arguably the greatest era, because it had a certain Mohammedan Lee in it. It had a certain Joe Fraser in it.

It had George Foreman in it. We're talking Rumble in the Jungle. We're talking friller in Manila. And then we had the radio era. That's your era. Thank you. That's your kind of era. We're talking Joe Lewis.

No, no. Let me. Let me correct you, the wildest era. Yeah, not real. We're talking Rocky Marciano. We're talking Jack Dempsey. We're talking that era. And then we're talking the Knockout Kings.

Johnny mentioned it as well. A heavyweight can put your lights out just like that. And many heavyweights did are the biggest punches. Is it early shavers? Is it Mike Tyson? Is it George Foreman? Is it someone else? So we're going to have that debate.

Now let me give you a full rules and regulations here, gents. Once you mention a name, they're off the table. And some names could intertwine into different debates here, different categories. But once you mention them, that's it. You can't mention them again.

So if you mention, I don't know, Vatari Klitsko as the best heavyweight of the 2000 era, and then when you want to talk about knockouts, you can't use Vatali. You all get about a minute to debate. Okay. Feel free to jump in. And then the producers,

or those at home, will decide who the winner is. Are we ready? Yes. been waiting to do this all day. Let's go. Johnny, I've been told it's you first, sir. Okay. So you have the floor.

So feel free to pick any category, and then when you do, tell us your fighter. Right, the category fittingly I'm going for is the modern era. Shocker. Shocker. And the name that screams out

at me before anyone else is Lennox Lewis. Okay. All right. There you go. The floor is yours. Why is Lennox Lewis the best fighter in the modern era? Well, Lennox Lewis, if I was to build a heavyweight,

that is the style, the grace that I would use, I would go for him. I also like the fact, yes, he did defeat every man he fought. He's been an undisputed champion, but unlike another man who we could argue could be at the top of it, Ussick, I would say he's come back from defeats and he's avenged him defeats, and that adds another layer of his ability as a professional boxer to come back from defeat and win.

And also, let's not forget as well, Olympic gold medal. Yes. So, look, we're not really adding what they did as an amateur, but if we're chucking the amateur accolades in as well, He's talking an Olympic gold medalist. And as he said, beat every single man he fought, although he did get chinned a couple of times. He did.

But he can't forget that. He came back. But he got chinned. He did. Johnny, you make some very valid points. However, Ussick, for me, is a master tactician and a master technician. So when he goes in there, and it's the Eastern European amateur background, which has carried him in good stead throughout its breakfast.

professional career. When he goes in there, he's a thinker. I like thinkers in the ring. I don't like robotic fighters, guys who are like boxing by numbers. You know, I like guys to go in there and every round is different and they can break it down as they go. These guys don't need trainers in their corner to tell them. You know, it's a fantastic advantage to have a trainer who can spot the flaws that you have and spot the flaws that your opponent has but he doesn't need that he's just such an excellent boxer

in every way his movement especially for a big guy his movement his ability to see things before his opponent cat. And he's a big man he's six foot three we talk about him like he's a small head right? Yeah yeah he's not small everyone that's tiny no he's my pick Alexander Usses

I do love Usik. Undisputed at Cruzeway, undisputed at heavyweight, Olympic gold medalist, European Championship gold medalist, World Championship, gold meddhist. Wonderful, amateur. Ukrainian gold meddhist.

I mean, I could go on and on and on has never touched a canvas. From that body shot. And there's another thing. That's what I was about to bring out. There's another thing I need to add them. I think this is important, especially for younger boxers looking at,

role models. You know, Usik is a fabulous role model for young people. And he knows. to conduct himself. We don't see any of this nonsense that we get from many other fighters. Name one. Who? Well, Tyson Fury. Tash and Fury. I mean, do you remember that? Tyssin Fury had an 11 minute rant into Usset's face at one point before they fought last time. I think, do we really need that?

Isn't that getting a bit tedious now? I think it's just passe. I think we should get rid of all that nonsense in boxing. You know, I feel like you guys, I feel like this is very unfair that I'm the last one to go because you've gone Lennox Lewis and you've gone to Alexander Usig. You've probably gone for two guys that might, when it's all said and down,

being the top five heavyweights of all time. But as this is a debate, let me debate for a certain Vladimir Klitsko because I like people that come back from adversity. Like, let's be honest, of the two Klitskos, Vitalis, the better. But Vladimir, when it comes to numbers, way more title defenses.

And longevity. And longevity. I mean, you couldn't beat the man. As soon as he got with Emmanuel Stewart, he was practically unbeatable. I mean, he learned to use that right hand. He learned to throw the jab. And again, he went 10 years undefeated. Lennox didn't do that.

But you are. Lennox didn't do that. And Alexander Ussics only had eight heavyweight title fights. Only. Only, yeah. But, Adi, you're actually arguing for me here as well for Lennox Lewis because your first statement was he came back from adversity. So you're adding something to the flavour to say,

Lennox Lewis. is the main man because Uziq hasn't had to come back from adversity yet. You know what it is about Lennox? And you know what is about Vladimir? Lennox had the talent. Lennox is just a supreme athlete, supreme boxer. Again, I mentioned the fact that he won Olympic gold. Vladimir wasn't that talented.

I mean, Vladimir was just good. He was strong. He was big, couldn't move. He'd learn on the job. He said, you know what? This is what I've got, and we're going to make this into what I've got the best of what I've got. And he became a super champion.

And he became a super champion. became a super champion. That's very interesting because, you know, every boxer can't be super talented, super skillful, but if they can take what talent that they do have,

shape it in a way to become, well, world champion. Yeah. Then you can't argue against that. I think it's phenomenal achievement. So he's got to be up there, obviously. He has to be up there.

I mean, again, you don't lose for 10 years. Yeah. 10 years, and it's not, you know, 10 years could be, I mean, sometimes you hear these stats and he's only fought once in three years. No, no, he fought twice a year for 10 years. It's like 20 title defences, pretty much,

which I think broke the record of Muhammad Ali. Do you know how crazy that is? And everyone has to say, there was no one fighting around the time. You fight them. And people always say, like, that 2010 sort of that sort of time era wasn't a great time for boxing, maybe it's just because Klitsko was too good for the rest.

Maybe they were just too dominant. Well, that's an interesting point, because they didn't leave an opening for anybody to come in, really, did they? Because the consistency was, the consistency was. there for years and you for a decade. So how do you get your way in it? If you're a young heavyweight

in that particular time, at that particular time, and you're looking at these guys thinking, how the devil am I going to get in here at all? You know? Yeah. They were just, they were, in terms of the modern, and I'm talking about the Klitschka brothers, in terms of the modern era, they were just too big

and strong for everyone. Sure. We hadn't seen six, five, six, six guys that could move and punch like they did. Who would have won? And the Ussick's still fighting, and Lennox obviously were in. tied 15 years ago, who would have won

Usik or Lennox at their absolute peak? So what's Pete Lennox? Well, I think he is, we've got to talk about... Pete Lennox, Evander? Peek Lennox. Well, yeah, but we've also got to talk about the physique thing here. You know, Lennox

is an enormous man. When he first started off, though, he wasn't. He wasn't. He was like skin and bone and he grew into it, which he was... He grew into it. Yeah. But he's still Olympic champion. Yeah. He had that grounding in the amateurs, which I think is key for many people. It should be key, which we don't see now.

We're having guys stunning pro in a very early stage of their careers. And so Lennox got the Olympic gold, and he carries himself through. He was learning on the job as a pro. And I thought, in the end, I agree with you. I think he's got to be up there with one of the great, certainly of the modern era, maybe not of all time but, you know, up there with some of the best in the era

that we are discussing right now. I like Lewis. You like Lewis over Ussick? No. You think Ussick does looks? I think Ussick's quicker thinker. I think Lennox in the end was

you know, a bit he was a slower. Because he was so big, we don't get many combination punches from big guys. True. And so we get one, two, and I go back to Tyson Fury, we get one, two, grab, one, two, hang on, one, two, wrestle. You know, we don't get three, four, five punch combinations. And that's what Usik does.

Usik does it. But how can we cast judgment on Usik? I know he's phenomenal, and there is a, it's a fin razor-hair argument for me between him and Lennox. But his career hasn't finished yet, so how can we cast a final judgment on everything? Is it because it's not finished, but I almost feel like we're. bonus time with Usen. He's done what he needed to do. He's been undisputed twice. Undisputed twice. That's unbelievable.

He's circling the block. He's now elapping people. Yeah. And that's I go back in what I said earlier about other heavy weights trying to find an opening. When you've got Usik, you know, ruling the roost, then you're thinking, well, how do... And what we're doing right now is recycling the heavyweight

division in terms of the championships. So we got... What do we talk about? We talk about AJ. We talk about Usik. talk about Turkish and Fury now Thomas coming into the equation but he's not ready yet

so it it would be it's a terrible thing to say but it would be a great thing for heavyweight boxing in my view when Usick goes and Fury goes The point I'm trying to make is

how can we cast a definitive judgment if the man's career although how illustrious it has been we don't actually know what the end career is going to finish that okay question if Usset's career stopped right now Yeah.

So there is no fights more. No more three or four fights. Who's had the better career? Alexander Usik or Lennox Lewis. Usick. Usick for me. And we can't, you're saying, you know what, it's not finished. Lennox has been undisputed.

Yeah. In a tougher boxing landscape to become undisputed. Well, that's a good point. We have to make a decision, ladies and gentlemen. Who is it? Is it Lennox? Let's be honest. It's not Vladimir.

I'll try. It's not Vladimir. No. I don't even think Vladimir is the best critchka. I think Vital is, man. It's probably Batali. I'm going to go Usyllie. Yeah.

Interesting. Sorry, Johnny. That's all right. Sorry. Lennox is still my favourite. Yeah. Oh, there you go. First round down.

The modern area championship, we've gone. Alexander Usik, but you at home make a decision as well. Who is it? Is it Alexander Usik? Is it Lennox Lewis? Is it? Tyson Fury? Is it Tonté Wilder?

I'm just chucking names out there. Could be AJ. Could be anyone. AJ could run the lap again. He could become undisputed. You can't argue with Usik as well. You can't argue. Frank?

Your turn to go first. So categories, it could be any. Could be any name as well. But obviously, Alexander Usik, Lennox Lewis, and Mr. Vladimir Klitschker, off the table. What are you going? So, well, let's deal with the golden, the so-called golden era, right?

And, you know, even if you're mentioning any era in heavyweight boxing, who jumps out of you? Mohammed, the greatest. Why? Now, here's the thing. We're talking about these big guys. who are carrying, you know, incredible bulk and because of that,

they're not as quick in terms of their hand speed. Couldn't say that about Muhammad Ali. His hand speed was phenomenal. Even for a lighter guy. You know, if you're a middleweight or a welterweight looking at Mohammed Ali, you'd think, I want to be as quick as him. I want to have great footwork like him.

He was a phenomenon in as much as he boxed like a middleweight. He performed like a middleweight. He punched like a middleweight in terms of his speed. And so it wasn't about his big punch because he didn't have such a big punch. It was about the accumulative effect

of his punching. And that's what made him special as a heavyweight in my view. Baba Dali, you've got it, you got out of you, Frank. It's going to be difficult, Johnny. I'm trying to tell my brain that there's a way of arguing against it. I'm just trying to find it.

You've got the next pick, let me go. Okay, you know what? Larry Holmes had the best jab in boxing. And you know this, the jab will take you around the world, they say, right? At the best jab in boxing. And let's not forget as well. Like, prior to fighting Michael Spinks,

and it's a fight, by the way, that I think he won, even though the first one was controversial, the second one was a split decision. He was 48 and 0. 48 and I think because he came after Muhammad Ali and Joe Fraser and George Foreman, and before Mike Tyson, he was almost forgotten a little bit. Exactly.

He was unlucky and unfortunate in the way that he was in between them two ears. Those two got. But then you look at the names he beat. James Broan Crusher Smith. Tim Weatherspoon. Cooney. Ali. Spinks.

Ernie Shavers. Ken Norton. He's knocking all these people out. And honestly, I think he got disillusioned with the sport after the Michael Spinks defeat. He came back and obviously thought Mike Tyson. Mike Tyson beat him. But there was a period for about 10 years when Larry Holmes

could have been it's the argument about Roy Jones that if Roy Jones stopped after winning the heavyweight title would he be the greatest ever if he stopped before fighting Michael Spinks we could be talking about the greatest heavyweight boxer

of all time power movement size the greatest jab the jab so look it could be Ali but I think it could be Larry Holmes well that's a good show

except for one thing oh okay you said the greatest jab in body greatest jab in heavyweight Yeah, in heavyweight boxing. In heavyweight boxing. Right. So, but Larry Holmes, you're right.

Larry Holmes was, he was different. And you mentioned loads of names there. Can you imagine those guys in the modern era today? Oh. Right? And where would, so where would the people, the heavy weights that we've been talking about

from the modern era? And let's include Tyson Fury in that. Where would they be with the people that you've just mentioned? I'm going to get you a Tyson Fury hoodie. The thing that I'm struggling to understand is or to compute with that is these men are 200, 210 pounds. So you come up against a Tyson Fury just from an anatomical physicality perspective. Good word that, Johnny. Anatomical, I'll say a great word.

But it's just 50, 60 pounds, you can't argue. That's a lot of weight to be giving away. Ussick did it? He has. Usick did it to Fury. Remember, that was 220 to 280. He's still 2.30 to 40 pounds. Yeah.

These guys are 200. to 10 pounds. Johnny, you're trying to skip around the most important thing here because you've got the impossible job of finding someone better than Ali and Larry Holmes. I found someone who is better. Joe Frazier beat the greatest boxer of all time.

What do you think about it? He did. I have found someone who can be here. So I've won. Ultimately, is that simple? Johnny, you're not allowed to declare yourself the winner. Well, I can't have logic there. No, no. Logic says he's right. They fought.

They fought in New York. Did Joe Fraser beat Muhammad Ali? And did Joe Fraser Chin Muhammad Ali? And did he beat him? Yeah. The answer is yes. Yes.

Yeah. Well, then... Listen, we're not even arguing who is the best. We know it's Ali, surely. You've put up a reasonable but not terribly convincing argument

for Larry Holmes. But, you know, it's a good one. I don't know how you can get a more definitive... One second. I can argue, as well and say my guy beat Ali. He did, yeah. My guy beat Ali.

And look, it was Ali in the 80s and I know Ali shouldn't have been in the ring. But when they fought in the ring, Larry Holmes beat Muhammad Ali. In the 70s, not the 80s. Joe Fraser beat Mahmoudreiber. Yeah. My guy beat him in the 70s at the pomp of his powers.

Come with your guy is that I remember your guy specifically being taken off his feet by George Foreman. Twice. Yeah. And George Freeman is on his list. I don't know. I don't know about that. That was a.

Unbelievable spectacle when I watched. Unbelievable spectacle. Now, look, the answer is, look, we've had fun and Joe's a great, that's a great line, by the way. Someone clipped that up. My guy beat the greatest of all time. But Muhammad Ali's probably.

We must bow. We all have to bow down to the king. I was trying to think about Ali's always do this. Because we immediately go to Rumble in the jungle. We go to Frinard in Manila. But I was thinking of Ali's biggest win. And I still think it, although those wins are,

glamorized because they were so special, maybe because they were away from America, so they just seemed a lot bigger. Sonny Liston, considering who Sunny Liston was going into that fight, that when we think of sort of Mike Tyson, Sunny Liston was almost the Mike Tyson of the 60s, someone that was looked after by sort of the mafia. The mob. Yeah, the mob. And was just scary. And that knockout, he's explained it before, Ali, the anchor punch. Is that the one where he sort of twisted his arm over like that? So the technique behind the knockout is. as well, forgetting all of the stuff outside the ring who Sonny Liston was, the way to live that pump.

Listern was such an intimidating character. He was. And because of his background and because of his size, in that era, you know, he was a big, big guy. And of course, he had this extra long reach. So his jab was pretty special. Can I tell you Sonny Lister's story? Go ahead, my mom. All right.

So he came to Glasgow, or Paisley, which is outside Glasgow. And there was a promoter there called Peter Keenan who had been at top bantamweight in his day in the 50s and he was the British, the Kongwelf and the European Bantamweight champion, now a promoter. Keenan was a remarkable man because he was semi-literate, self-educated and he was a promoter, right? And he was part of the cartel

where we had Harry Levine in London, Mike Barrett and Mickey Duff. So he brings Liston over to spar on this show. Walter McGowan, who became the world flyweight champion, was topping the bill. I was McGowan's chief sparring partner for a while. And so what happened was they're in the ring, and he's done the sparring, and he does his famous skipping to the tune of Sweet Georgia Brown. And afterwards, they go to a council estate tower block, 12th floor, to a party.

Keenan and Liston and he's gang and they go there and at one point Kenan's 5 foot 5 Listern's a giant At one point he looks over to the corner and he sees Listern arguing with other guests Local guys

You know and you know Glaswegians they're ferocious You know they're a few drinks And he was worried Keyn was worried something that was going to erupt So he goes over Heights are like this He goes over to Liston

he says, come here. See that window, he said. We're on the 12th floor. He said, if I get any more of this nonsense from you, you're going out that window. He said, at the sunny. He said it the sunny, Liston thought this was fantastic. He's roaring and laughing and he loves,

he loved the Scottish people and the Glasgow people because of that. Because of that thing, right? He had the nerve, this 5 foot five in form of bantam weight to challenge him and say, you're going out the window. That was sunny a list. Oh, that's a good story there. It's funny, because you always hear the negative stories around Sunny.

So always feel like it's nice to hear the good stories about him as well. Now, I think it's fair to say that the winner of that one is Muhammad Ali. Frank's pulling him away. All right, I'm going to go knockout king. Knockout king. Knockout king. And I am going to go for big George Foreman. Oh, wow.

You know, I say big George Foreman, yeah And I think George Foreman Everyone thinks of him As being able to knock people out Because he was a lot bigger than everyone else And he was big Yeah Go and look at the weights

If you can, if you've got a minute of your time Go and look at the weights for George Foreman Versus versus Joe Fraser Joe Fraser 240 pounds George Foreman, 217 Yeah Now, oh, 217 Yeah

What I'm trying to get at He wasn't this big bully that just bullied That just bullied everyone because of his size he knocked you out because he had something special in that right hand. It was almost like a four hammer. In my time of watching boxing, not as long as you, Frank. Maybe a bit longer than you, Johnny. I haven't seen anyone hit someone and they'd come off the floor.

Unless you're watching Rocky 4, Ivan Drago versus Rocky Balbo. Then that was he there. When he hit Joe Fraser, Joe Fraser came off the floor. Yeah. He skipped. I haven't seen anything like that in my life before. No, that was different. I haven't seen anything like that.

Go on what he's fight against Ron Lyle. Oh, that's a great fight. Two absolute punches. It's a cartoon fight. It's a cartoon fight. I've got a fight of the year. I think I might have got, yeah, fight of the year. Credit to Ron Lauer in that fight. Ron Lowe was giving everything, throwing it all at him,

kitchen sink. George Foreman said, take that. Michael Moore, who was unbeaten at the time George Foreman fought him. George Foreman is getting pieced up. I mean, he's getting lit up. He landed one from absolute nowhere, done.

The referee could have counted to 100 seconds, no point counting to 10. George Foreman, I believe, is the hardest hit in heavyweight, maybe the hardest puncher we've ever seen have won the round. I'm not sure. Go on John.

Go on, Johnny. I am vouching for Ernie Shavers. One, because the greatest of all time has said he's the hardest puncher. But also, minus 2% CO ratio. That's a joke, is it? What's George Foreman's K-O ratio?

Because we have to be statistically astute. We do, but if we were doing it by stats, then we might as well have Wilder in there as well. Who I believe has got like a 97% K-O ratio for the fights won. You have to, surely you should be in this case. Maybe he does deserve consideration. He does, he must do. It's who George Foreman was knocking out and how he was knocking them out. That puts him higher for me.

But I have no issue of Ernie Shavers being in this debate whatsoever. Ernie Shavers could crack. And it's interesting that, And this is, you know, we're going to get flak if we don't mention Mike Tyson. Yeah. He's got an unbelievable fan base still. I think they were knocked out

before they hit the floor with Mike. I feel like they were knocked out before they entered the ring. Someone's like, oh, he hit me, I'm gone. Yeah, you think so. Some of the people were so frightened. I feel like, I'm just going to go to sleep here. You know, I've said, you know,

Tyson was pretty special. Could have been the greatest ever, you know. It could have been. It could have been. And what's amazing about him, he was only five, ten, he's only half, ten. He's only 5, 10 and a half. And he had to develop a style

which allowed him to get into the positions to knock out guys. And he did it for a long, long time until they discovered the upper cut. I almost felt like Mike was a bully, not his own fault, just because of his demeanour. But then when another bully came to him,

there was a bit of an issue. It was almost like the bully in the playground, finally someone steps up to him and all of a sudden that bully things gone. Do you remember his fight with Mitch Green? Because I had a bit of back and forth, didn't they? They did. Outside of the ring.

Oh, yes. That was a great fight as well. Even the Donovan Razor Ruddock fights, which were just damaging where they're just kicking. You know what out of each other. Anyway, I've gone George Foreman. Johnny's gone to earn his shavers. I stink with Tyson.

Yeah, Mike. I'm going with George Foreman. So who judges this friend then if you're... People at home. People at home. Or the producer. Go on. Go on.

By the way, I've not one around yet. So it would be nice. It's George. It's clearly George. I think it's Big George. There you go. Big George. I'm not the one who's on Neil.

Big George. Johnny, we've mentioned some big names here, some big punches as well. I mean, look at the names that we've mentioned so far. Show's not over yet, gents. I mean, Ali, we've mentioned Frays. We've mentioned Foreman, Tyson, Warda, Ussick, Lennox. Who, like, if you were opposite any of those, let's say you're in the ring, you made your way to the ring,

can I paint the picture for you, you've made your way to the ring, your dad's with you, your dad's with you. Yeah. And that person's music comes on. who are you thinking it can't be that person who's the last person you want to see walking to the ring it's between two I think

I'm going to be looking at the dad going bloody hell he put me up for one here but everyone's hard but the two that stick out to me from just an aura perspective Mike Tyson but also for me I think George Foreman because he's just a bludgeoner he'll bludgeon you

you're not going to get knocked out cold you're going to get them delayed reaction I think of the phrase of hops and skips, as you said, you're going to get bludgeoned. So that's not a very nice feeling. That's true. However, Mike Tyson would do it quicker, and he would put you to sleep earlier.

Yeah, so that's probably one. Tyson and Foreman. You know, Tyson is romantic. Yeah, I'll be out of a bit quicker. Mike Tyson would roll. Can you imagine and say, please, can you just calm down for a few seconds? At least it'll be over quick, though, Frank.

With Foreman, I'll probably. see it all coming, but it's like, it's just the volume of it and the bludgeoning and the unstoppable, and the unstoppable coming forward. You'd be mesmerized, but... Yeah. With Mike as well, it's like, Foreman, Fulman's a nice guy.

Yes. Fulman was a, you know, was a pastor. Yeah, so he's just a nice guy. Not his early days. Not his early days, a bit naughty. But Mike was just a scary individual. Sure. Yeah, and you know,

imagine waiting for someone to walk to the ring with no robe. Yeah. And that means basically, I'm just coming to fight. Forget all the fantasy, forget all the nonsense. I just want to fight you. So you agree it's nonsense. All that stuff. It's a bit nonsense in it sometimes.

A little bit, yeah, yeah, yeah. Although I do like, there's some ring walk music I do like. I do like. Country row. Yeah, I do, yeah, there you go. There's Johnny's music, you know. Kelbrook, all of the lights. Yeah.

We should have a show on that, by the way. Ringwalk. I think having a simple song, or like one song and just walk into the ring, I think that's as good as any of these shows and all the fireworks going. Oh, yeah. Get to the Ring. Yeah. I'll be of walking to the ring.

No messing about. Yep. Got in the ring. Yeah. And it was, you're there for the boxing. Okay, so the scores are, not that I'm counting, but Frank two, add a one. Johnny. Yeah, to get off the mark.

All right, this is your round, Johnny. It's the last one. Oh, is it? It's the last one. And there's only one category left. Yeah, the radio era. We say the best to last, really. I mean, you've got some iconic names.

You've got some iconic names. World War II legend, Jack Johnson. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. But for me, they'll. This is, it's got to be Rocky Marciano for me. 49 and 0. We can have our debates about who he did fight, who he didn't fight.

But a record of 49 and 0. Yeah. Five foot 11. I mean, that's a very, 185 to 190 pounds. What weight would that be now? Is that crucial? Just above light heavy. Yeah.

Yeah. Just about cruiser. Yeah. I've just got an admiration for Rocky Marciano. I punched his bag when I was in Vegas. They still had his bag hanging up in one of the gyms there. His training regime was immense. It was.

Swimming across a lake and running, just constant. And the ferociousness and the relentlessness of the man. And wherever you say, he's finished his career, it's 49 and 0. Yeah, yeah. Finish his career unbeaten. I mean, you can't better that. Some of the results are it. 88% knockout ratio.

That's quite scary for someone, as you said, that was 185 pounds and 5'11 at most. At most 5, 10.5. I've got to be accurate here. And the other thing, too, is, Johnny, he'd the very short, reach. And so he had to adapt. It's impressive. By, yeah, by, and

talk about having a good chin. All right, so we're talking about the radio era here, the wireless era. For me. That was the first fight I listened to on the radio. Which one? Marciano against Don Cockle, who was the British

heavyweight champion. Now, Don Cawkel, if you look at him now, if you see the fight now, and you imagine, you think, wow, This guy was flabby. He was very flabby. But he was the most courageous guy of everything. Marciano, I think it was the sixth round it ended. Marciano pummeled him for six rounds.

And Coco kept coming back again and again. The referee eventually stopped or he was knocked out. I can't remember. But it was the first fight. I was probably about seven or eight. And it was on at three o'clock in the morning. And I said my dad, you know, can I get to listen to? this on the radio and he reluctantly

agreed and it was the excitement of it. There's something special about it. Yeah. We're almost spoiled, aren't we? We are. We're all the build up and we've got a presser and a way in and blah blah blah blah. Just to turn on a radio and here we enjoy. There's a bit more of a fru in that as well because

it's not as available. Yes. Everything's so available to us. It's too much now. Not just box it. Too much. But you know the great thing about it was the radio allowed you to use your imagination. Yeah. So you've got you in your mind you're thinking about the arena. You're thinking about the announcer,

you know, announcing... You're more engaged in that one. Yeah, and you are. And you're thinking about... The commentaries have to be really good. Unfortunately, there's some commentaries today on TV that are unsuitable. They should be on radio because it's non-stop talking.

Let's let the fight breathe. Let's watch it. Let's make your comments by all means in the commentary. But the radio commentaries in those days were fantastic. I think, obviously, I do a bit of radio work. And I do think just radio allows you to paint the picture that you create yourself. So everyone that watches it would have their own vision of what it looks like because that it kind of just takes you to your own space.

Rocky Marseone was fantastic. Great choice. Well done, Johnny. But you are going to lose this round again because the only answer really is Joe Lewis. Yes. I mean, let's finish, Joe Lewis is. Joe Lewis was just fantastic. And I know you're probably going to say, yeah, but Rocky Marciano, Chinjo,

and yeah, he did beat him. But Joe Lewis had retired and came back. Joe Lewis was like literally he was, I think, America's first boxing superstar. He was almost missed to America because he was fighting for more than boxing at the time. Obviously, we were in

a crazy time. Wars all over the world. And those fights with Max Schmelling were nothing can compare in boxing today. Nothing. Joe Lewis went to see the president before fighting Max Schmellan. He was like, basically, you have to do this.

And when Max Schmellin won the first, one, it was almost like, for the Nazis, it was almost like, there you go, we are victorious against the Americans. Joe Lewis, though, when you look at just the TV's boxing record, 25 title defenses, that's probably never going to get beaten in the heavyweight division. It's just outstanding. And he just had everything as a boxer. Yeah.

Honestly, just a beautiful boxer, just phenomenal, only lost to Max Schmeline, the great Rocco Marciano and Ezad Charles, an incredible boxer. The answer is Joe Lewis. I agree. Oh, what? He would be my pick. Am I allowed to do that? No, you could, well, not really, but if you want to,

so it means I'll win the round. Well, I don't mind. I'll beat you next time. Because, Joe Lewis technically was an artist. He was beautiful to watch. The punching was shot. His cross, which I go on about in my videos all the time, it was so succinct.

It was short. It was fast. It was clinical, and the same with these left hook. And that's why I had so many knockouts. The timing was just beautiful. So I can't look past Joe Lewis. Marciona comes a close second for me in the radio era. And if you look at the other contenders, if you like, Dempsey and all these Jack Johnson and so on,

I mean, that was so far back. And when you look at the videos of those guys now, it looks like a different sport. It does. It looks like a different sport. Whereas when I look at Joe Lewis and Rocky Marciano, you know, like you say, Ears can't compete with Ears. I look at those two and I say you can chuck them in any era.

Yeah. With the way in which they fought. And by the way, I mean, look at the rounds they're doing. Yeah. So we spoke about fitness earlier on. I mean, the rounds of them are beyond 15 rounds. Yeah. It's honestly, it's incredible.

I just don't know what I've got to do to get a point in it, though, because I've been two rounds. People that have beat other people, and apparently I've not won eight more. one. Rocky Marciano beat Joe Lewis. And who was the other one? Yeah.

Joe Frazier beat Mohammed Ali. Yeah. So is it got any way? You've been thinking hard about this, Joe. You've been going through your notes. I thought I had the perfect counter argument there, but no. Joe Lewis was a legend. You know, and you were speaking a bit earlier about role models.

You've mentioned Alexander Usik. By the way, fantastic role model. On Joe Lewis, there was a famous writer, Jimmy Cannon, who wrote that Joe Lewis was a credit to his race, which would ultimately make you think he's talking about. the black race. Yeah. But he said the human race. That's powerful.

So just to confirm, on this pre-60s radio era, you went with Rocky Marciano, which was a good one. I think you went early. I did. I went Joe Lewis. And you went Joe Lewis with me, Frank. I did.

It's not really a debate. It's not part of the show, but, you know, I know. But there's no point trying to make a debate if there's no debate. No, well, exactly. It's going to say that. If you've got people who are outstanding, you know,

and you, why throw in another name just for the sake of it you know Joe Lewis is remarkable I was perhaps hasty because when you have an affection or soft spot for a particular fighter

that's probably no no no I don't think there's anything wrong with Rockinacianna is a legend yeah In fact is you're a heavyweight that was unbeaten do you know I mean

49 and no take all that out of the equation and you look at his technical ability he's punching power and and this delivery of punch which is fantastic I always hold them up as a kind of prime example

of how to throw the cross, Joe Lewis. I've seen your videos on it, yeah. Yeah. It's good. Yeah. Gets me into trouble, mind you. Because the younger generation say, what about Mike Tyson?

What about Tyson Fury? I think, well, no comparison. We're talking about Joe Lewis. Talking about Rocky Marciano. These guys were special. Yeah, special indeed. So just to confirm, because I chose him first,

I win the point. So it's 2-2. Zero, Johnny, zero. No, Bosh. Unlucky, Johnny. Unlucky. You win some, you lose some, and today I've lost. Of the names that we've spoken about,

and we've touched on some incredible names here, because, again, as I said at the top, I think the heavyweight division is the division when it comes to boxing. Maybe not. I know, Frank, that there are pure boxers that are in the lower weight classes. Who is the best heavyweight of all time? It would be hard to look past Mohammed Ali.

But there are other contenders, obviously. But I can't see past. I'm the same. I think for the whole package. Yes. Not just in the ring, everything that he's done. Sportsman of the century, the civil rights side of it as well.

If we're thinking of a heavyweight boxer, they transcend the sport. They are the man. so the heavyweight champion of the world and who encapsulates that better than Muhammad Ali not just looking purely at boxing I'm talking about the character of the man

the heavyweight champion of the world is a prestigious accolade to hold Is it still that? Is it still that? You're right, I've always felt like it was that like when you're the heavyweight champion of the world you are on top of every single sports person

I always felt like you are the man. You're the man, right? Does it still have that weight? No. I don't think, I don't know you agree with this, Johnny, but I don't think it has the same cachet as it did

in Mohammed Dahl East Time and before him. Even after, I thought in the 80s, I felt like Mike Tyson was the baddest man on the planet, right? But I mean, I don't, this is hard to say because I don't know if the following is there. Life has changed so much.

You know, we spoke about the radio era and how people engaged with boxing through listening to it on the radio. reading Ring Magazine, boxing news, couldn't get enough of it. Even the amateur shows, when I was boxing for Scotland, you know, I box in the Albert Hall with 7,000 people there. England against Scotland, twice.

And the same, you know, in the Kelvin Hall in Glasgow, 5,000 people, you think that wouldn't happen now. It doesn't happen now. I think human attitude and technology has changed the way that we view sport and things like that. There's so much choice and availability out there. Perhaps that has changed it. little bit. There's less to be revered because everything's so available.

And the heavyweight champion of the world, back then, I can feel it in myself. I wasn't even alive before the 90s and I can feel that when I talk to the elder generation or people that of 10, 20, 30 years older than me, it does feel like it had a different feel when I think about it. You're right, it carried because I wasn't alive when Muhammad Ali thought. Why are you looking at me like? No, no, no. You are in the States, mate.

You can tell us the story, Frank. To you, yeah. All right, producer Tom. The scores are Frank to add a to Johnny Zero. We don't have draws in this show. We don't have any fence in. We don't do this. Who won?

Who are you picking? Come on, Tom. Frank's got Usik and Ali. That is a combination that is. So you've got Usik and Ali. I've got Foreman and Joe Lewis. Yeah. I think you win, Frank.

I think you win. So what you're telling me, gold, silver, Johnny. Bronze. Bronze. Bronze. No, Johnny's from a rugby background,

so it's the wooden spoon. Yes, the wooden spoon. We won't talk about it anymore. It's the wooden spoon. Yeah, I've accepted my defeat. I'll lick my wounds and go off,

but losing to Frank. We can take that, Andy. We can take that, we can tell that, we can tell. Don't put me and you together. Yeah, we and you. Yeah, we're together now.

Winnie loose. Yeah. There you go, guys. This one was a special one because the heavy weights for me is like, again, we've all been brought up on heavy weights,

right? I was brought up on Mike Tyson. and Frank was brought up on Jack Johnson. And Johnny, more up to day, Monixander, please, Johnny, stick up for me. I don't need you stick up for you. You can handle it yourself. I'll sit you on the back.

I'm sitting there. I'll sit in the hands. But look, no, that was a fantastic debate. We mentioned so many special names in the heavyweight division. Going from the 1920s up to modern times, and it really is the glamour division. Frank won.

The debate, according to our producer, Tom's still not. Convinced about that, and let us know who you think were the champion choices for today's categories. Let us know in the comment section below and cast your vote as well. Your vote does count, trust me. And we're going to use it to compile our ultimate Boxing Board Hall of Fame. Remember, like, share, subscribe, all that good stuff. And we'll see you in another episode of the Boxing Board very, very soon. Hello, Greg Jenner here. I'm the host of You're Dead to Me, the BBC comedy show that takes

history seriously. Every episode, I pair up a top historian with a fantastic comedian, And we have a lovely, funny, fascinating chat about a different subject from world history. And in this new series, we're beginning with an epic voyage through the story of Homer, the Iliad and The Odyssey. And that's with Kyle Smith Bino joining us. And then we'll be learning about Francis Galton and the racist discredited pseudoscience of eugenics with Desiree Birch. We'll meet many medieval saints in their bone boxes with Rachel Parrott. So if that sounds like your sort of thing, listen to You're Dead to Me wherever you get your podcast. Thank you.

Bye!