5 Live Boxing with Steve Bunce - The Boxing Board Ep.4 | Who is Boxing’s Greatest Welterweight?

Episode Date: September 16, 2026

Welterweight has produced some of the most complete and celebrated fighters in boxing history, but who is the best of the best?Chairman Ade Oladipo is joined by comedian and boxing podcaster Travis Jay, alongside trainer and online sensation Frank Gilfeather, who reveals how he once trained with one of the greatest fighters ever to enter a ring.Across four categories, the board considers the finest 147lb operators from every era. Can anyone displace Sugar Ray Robinson at the top of the division? Was Sugar Ray Leonard the most adaptable fighter boxing has ever seen? And how do modern greats Floyd Mayweather, Terence Crawford, Manny Pacquiao and Shane Mosley compare with the legends who came before them?Expect expert insight, passionate disagreement, some surprising omissions and the remarkable story of a boxing icon’s visit to Paisley in the 1960s. Can the board agree on the greatest welterweight of them all?

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and acclaimed documentaries to in-depth analysis and features. Visit BBC.com forward slash subscribe to find out more. Welcome to the boxing board. I'm Adi O'Dipo, and I'm here to settle once and for all some of the biggest debate in boxing. This is the Boxing Board.

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Boxing Board. And I am your host, Mr. Adi O'Dipo. I am your chairman. And today, today's a special one, because we are going to talk about the best division, I think, in boxing. Best because of ability, best because of power, best because of financial power. And best because it is, I think, the most stacked division ever.

I am talking about number one for seven, the waterweight. And I have a collection of guests that we are going to have. have debates about that I think are going to make this the best one yet. And that's saying something. We have Travis Jay, comedian, actor, and just all-round boxing connoisseur. Welcome to this, Travis. How you do, man? Thanks for me. Hope you're ready, sir. Hope you're ready. I'm ready. Because you're going to have to debate against this man. The historian. The historian, who, by the way, trained with a man that we might mention, we'll get to that a bit later, whose name might appear on this list. I'm talking about the great Frank Guilfeather. I was going to call you something else there.

Frank, but we're going to keep it PG. Thank you. How are you? I'm great. I'm fighting fit. Are you ready for this? Are you excited? Oh yeah, yeah.

And I agree with you. It's a great division. Honestly, it's an incredible division. By the way in which this works, so we have broken it down. It's just too easy for us to have a debate about the world to wait to not break it down into sub-subjects, if you like. So the subjects are the modern masters. So we're talking Crawford, Pachial, Mayweather, Cotto, Mosley. We can go on and on and on.

The pioneers were talking Armstrong, Sugar Ray Robinson. Do you know, hey, hey, hey? Then we're talking the Golden Age, right? The heavyweights have the 80s and the 70s. The Walter weights definitely have the 70s and 80s. We are talking Sugar Ray Leonard. We're talking Tommy the Hitman Hearns. Yeah?

And we're talking those type of names. And then we're talking about one-punch assassins, people that when they hit you, you stay hit. So we're going to break it down all like that. And then we're going to come to an. agreement. Okay. Yeah? And we're going to decide. Now, once you mention one name in any category, that's it, off the table. So if you mentioned Tommy Hearns as an example, Trave, in sort of that era of the 70s, who was the best. And when we go to Punchers, you can't mention Tommy Hearns again.

Oh. So he's off. Yeah, yeah. See? Okay. Start. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. All right. When I do this, your time is up. And myself, you at home, our producer Tom, will make the decision. All right, Krav. You are the guest. Oh, I get to start. You get to start first. So you can pick any subject. All right, cool.

You can pick any subject here. Again, modern masters, pioneers, the golden age, the destroyers. All right, cool. You first, sir. I'm going to go with modern masters. Here we go. Absolutely. It's so excited.

This is so excited. And my selection, Floyd Money, Mayweather. Tell me why. Floyd Mayweather is, in my opinion, the most complete boxer. that we've seen, right? And that's saying a lot. So are you saying in any weight class? In this water weight division,

but you know, you could make a case in any weight class as well. Technically brilliant, you know, you divide his career up into two stages. You got the money Mayweather version, which is a lot more defensive. He kind of adapted to his age quite well, fighting out of weight at 147.

I don't believe he truly belonged at 1447. Agreed, agreed. But he dominated up there, right? And then you go to, you know, what was his other? Pretty boy Floyd, where he was a bit more of a devastating puncher. You know, he'd look to get guys out of there. You know, he didn't deal with the brittle hands that he dealt with later on his career.

And I think his technical brilliance, he took, his boxing IQ is at a point where he wins rounds whilst taking the round off. Like, he's just quite so comfortable in there. You just, you know, you don't outbox Floyd Mayweather. You know, the times you've seen him get caught, you know, they're so few and far between. We have to go back to the Shane Mosley highlight over and over again. The one shot made darn landed that we've got. or play over and over again. Took that Shane shot as well, didn't he?

Took the shots. Took the Shane shot. Do you what I mean? And I just think he just is a very complete boxer. Absolutely brilliant mind. I think he's absolutely fantastic and unbeaten. There we go. And unbeaten.

Fought them all. Yeah, maybe controversially beat them all as well, Frank. Frank, it's difficult. It's difficult to look beyond Floyd Money Mayweather. That's true. But, you know, if I'm going to pick a fault with Mayweather, is that he was ultra-cautious. he went in there with the mantra

the hit without being hit back and he pretty well completed that you know he's such a fantastic boxer however I think Terence Crawford is up there I think Crawford has got that ring IQ I would love to have seen those together because they would have brought the best out of each other not that you needed to

but when you're boxing somebody who's equal if not better than you, then it makes you better. And I think Terrence Crawford against this guy, Mayweather, would have been eye-watering, mouth-drueling, fight. I'm going to go with Crawford. I think he's fantastic. It's difficult to argue because I just said, Floyd unbeaten, Terrence unbeaten.

Yes. You know what I mean? Terence brings the accolades as well, two-time undisputed. Yes. So he's like, I am the man in that division. I've cleaned out everyone. So he's done that as well. And you look at them as well, maybe Crawford naturally a bit bigger.

Floyd started from a smaller weight class. Yeah. He's definitely, and I'd say he's naturally stronger as well in the ring. You know, his wrestling background plays quite heavily in the ring. But, you know, if we start to compare resumes and the names. It's no comparison. It's no comparison. Even though Crawford's tried to, you know, in the latter years, chuck a couple of names on there,

Canello, et cetera. Errol Spence. Errol Spence. But is that Terrence's fault, though? Terrence couldn't get the fights. Yeah. But you've also got to look at who's available at the time to box these guys, to fight them. And, you know, Crawford was put up against everybody that needed to be, you know, approaching him in terms of the world championship.

And he beat them. Now, the same with Mayweather, of course, different, slightly different era earlier, just a little bit. But in terms of technical ability, I think Crawford's up there with Mayweather. I don't think I think you could put a kind of cigarette paper between them. It's that close. I'm going to go. Now, look, Crawford. You both make compelling arguments.

I love them both. Crawford's a great argument. Floyd's a great argument. But he's going to say, but. No, no, no, no, you're both wrong. You're both wrong. Because clearly the number one is Mani Pachia. Sorry?

We're talking an eight-weight world champion. Five lineal. Now let me just confirm and just tell what people, linear means. Linear means you are the man that beat the man in the division. He was a whirlwind. I've never seen someone go up in wait class and people genuinely fear fighting him. You don't fear fighting Floyd.

You're going to get outboxed. You're not getting beaten up. Floyd isn't there to knock you out and send you back packing. Mani Pakel sends you around where point you have to think of the ambulance after. Because he is coming in there to destroy and take your. head off. Yes. And Floyd didn't do that.

Terrence didn't do that to an extent either. Mani Pacquil was scary. He fought everybody. He did. Every man. Bloss Floyd's resume out of the meter. Mani Paciol recently fought Mario Barrios for a world title and arguably beat him. At the age of 46.

Yeah. Arguably beat Barrios of 46. Yeah. It's ridiculous what he's doing. Mani Paciol, I'm sorry. You both snob. a nigga like who? An eight-weight world champion. Yeah.

Mani Pachial is just sensational. Yes, but he took too many punches in my view. You just said Frank that Floyd didn't take any risk. No, no, no. Now when you take risk, there's a problem. There's a difference. No, no, no, he didn't take any risk, but I admire him for that. He's come out of boxing with his brains intact.

No, I'm not saying Pacheo hasn't. But Pachio was a fool-on fighter. It was kind of kill or be killed. Who would you pack to see? Sorry. Who would you pay to see? Yeah, I would pay your seat packet. There you go. What?

What does it? Well, it's entertainment. The sport is entertainment. Oh, yeah, yeah, sure. Who would you pay your hard-earned money? Yeah, but I'm talking about, we're talking about. Who would you pay your hard-earned money to go and watch? That's asked the question.

I was asking a question. I'm asking a question. I'm asking a question. Who would you pay to see? Oh, yeah, that's not an argument. I'm saying, who would you pay to see? Well, of course, I don't see. But I tell you that, my point, I've got eight of those behind him as well.

So it's not an argument, but he's got eight of those behind him. So he's not only got eight of those. He's got five lineals. Hey, I'm not going to... He was the fighter of the decade twice. Mani Paci-Pakial is not sitting at the top of these list of free men. No chance. He was exciting.

He was all those things. Do you have any fighters fit to brief of being exciting and being someone I'd pay to see? They weren't number one or two in their errors. You can't be an eight-weight world champion and just say you're excited. I think you guys are sitting on his ability a bit too much. Now, look, I'm not trying to say technically he was as good as first. Why we're here. No, but you're saying, no, you're saying he's a ability.

Like Mani Pachial's ability could box, that Southport left hand was frightening. Ferocious. Hey, Marcos put that man to sleep, right? And arguably won one of the other fights as well. Because he was aggressive, you know why? Because he wanted to fight. He wasn't defensive, couldn't, certainly not a defensive genius like Floyd, but he wanted to have a scrap.

So you're saying he's technically not as good as Floyd? No. Technically not as good as Crawford. No, not technically. He's a fighter. And that's a fighter. Yeah, that's what he does. He's a fighter.

But doesn't make him the best. There we go. What does? What does? What makes the best? Being technically good and having a resume to back it up the guys you've beaten. My guy's got that. No, he doesn't have it like how Floyd does it though.

My guy's got that resume. Floyd made. Marquez, Orera, Cotto, Hatton, Floyd. Should we list Floyd's resume? Go ahead. Ricky Hatton, Shane Mosley. Oscar de la Jolla. Kennello Alvarez.

Mani Pachiel as well. The win over here. Travis, your argument is compelling. It's good. But I still think Crawford. You feel sorry for these guys who end up in an era with so many stars when, you know, in another time

they might have been way head and shoulders above everybody else. Mostly was up there, certainly, in that bracket of being among, you know, the top welterweights of the modern era. You know, I think would have been out there. But he jumped to 154 and then obviously he had an accident, very bad accident, Paul Williams. Paul Williams was a problem because of his length. You know,

everyone was trying to think of someone that's like Tommy Huns. It was Paul Williams before it was Crawford. Yeah. Just that length and he just couldn't get the fights. He's the name that people always throw at Floyd when they talk about who you have waited. Everyone flows. Him at Floyd Pete Margarito at Floyd as well. Another name, Oscar de la Jolla. Dude, how can we forget the golden boy, Oscar de la Jolla? I mean, he was a phenomenal. Yeah, you know what? I'd forgotten about him. Yeah. He was phenomenal. He was.

Some of his fights with Shane Mosley as well. Yeah. Amazing. Sweet P. All those fights as well. Yeah. Fabulous. And then obviously sort of at right the end of his career, decided to fight Pachio.

Yeah. Decided to come to 147 and fight Pachial coming up, which wasn't good. All right. How do we conclude that? Are we going Crawford? It's not Manny Paciol. Are we going Crawford or Floyd? Well, listen, I can see.

No, no, no, don't do that. Don't do that. Tom, the producer. Tom, it's on you, this one. Who are you going? Are you going Floyd or you going Crawford? Come on, Tom. Oh, this is tricky. This is the hard one.

This is the hard one. I think you've got to go to Mayweather. I don't know there's a bit of recency bias with Crawford. It needs a bit of time to digest. I'm going with Mayweather. I will say this. Although I debated Pacquil, I love Mayweather. There are times that I'm just at home board.

Mayweather YouTube. Yeah. Just to remind me of those times of what he was doing to people. Even the 24-7 shows, everything about Floyd. Yeah. The whole, he ticks every single box for boxing. Outside of boxing, inside boxing. And then, as you say, the change from Pretty Boy, who was a killer to money,

who I'm just going to out boxing, nothing you can do about it. Phenomenal. Phenomenal. And whilst I back to Mayweather, I'm a huge Terence Crawford fan. Same. He has the poised, the mental side. He's got all of the elements that I love in a fighter. And when he's gone up to Canelo and have that dominant performance,

I'm like, that is the perfect way to sign of your career. Okay, there you go. All right, so Floyd Mayweiler is in the books. What on, Travis? First point to you, sir. Cheers, ma'am. But that will be your last point. Frank, go on.

Your time to pick a subject. Well, I'm going to go with the pioneers, as we're calling on. Here we go. And I think, like, all the great pundits, I'm going to go with Sugar-A. Rominson. Now, we tend to think of Sugar A. Robinson as middleweight, five times middleweight champion. But he had a tremendous career, early career, as a welterweight.

And he was beating everybody he was put before him. So as a welterweight, anyway, I think he's the greatest of all time in any weight division. So I've got to choose Sugar A. Yeah, it's difficult to go against a guy that, when unbeaten for 91 fights. Yeah, what I mean? You know what I mean? I just tried to argue for many packing.

I don't know if I can do this. This is very, very difficult. I think Sugar Ray Robinson's just... Any... When I think the best fight of all time, Ali says the best fight with Sugar Ray Robinson, I'm like, well, what's Addy going to do here and counter it?

The only name I can counter it is Mr. Henry Armstrong. And I know he lost to Sugar Ray Robinson, but this is a guy that really and truly was undisputed in free weight classes at the same time. Exactly. Featherweight, lightweight, water weight. Never been done.

Never been done. 183 fights, which just doesn't even make sense when people like Jazeera have 50. We're saying, stop, Jazeera, stop no more. Well, there you are. Give it up, man. Now, they are. We're talking about Nere, where these guys were boxing, you know, two or three times a month sometimes.

Yeah, yeah. And when Sugar Ray Robinson was coming to the end of his career, He came to Europe to earn as much money as he could to pay the tax man back home. And he was boxing. I mean, I looked up and he was boxing like four times in six weeks. You know, every other week he was boxing. Germany and France, he came to the UK.

So I'm guessing they're not sparring. They are sparring. How are you sparring? Yeah. How are you sparring in between boxing? Well, I'll tell you how. Go on. Well, I'll tell you, I know this because he, he, he, he,

He brought with him a guy called Mila Cahoon, who was from the West Indies originally, but moved to New York. And he became the full-time sparring partner for Sugar Ray Robinson. So when Robinson was coming to Europe and other places, this guy went with him. How do I know that? I trained with a great Sugar Ray Robinson. 1964. I'll be just to build up that.

Your voice changed as well. You like that. I can't do it. I need something like you. I need a pro like you. And I'm in 19604. And I was a sparring partner for a guy called Walter McGowan, who was a flyweight champion of the world.

I became at 1966. And I sparred with McGowan from the age of 15 right through to it. It was about 20. And he said to me one day, next week when you come down, next Sunday, he lived in Hamilton, and I was in Dundee, so it was about 120 miles difference or so on.

Next week, when you come down, on Sunday, don't come to the gym, come to St. Cuthbert's Church Hall, and I said, why? He said, well, we're going to kit it out as a boxing gym proper, the full side ring and the bags and so on. And I said, okay, didn't ask any questions, really. So this was the Sunday before the fight on the Thursday in Paisley Ice Rink, which was a big venue, 5,000 people. I went down there and I'm in the changing room at the start

getting myself and get my wraps on and as we called them bandages because that's what they were just putting them on when the door to my left opens

and I look around and in walks this vision Sugar Ray Robinson and I thought of course Sugaray's topping the bill against a guy called Mick Lehi who was a British

middleweight champion Robinson's 43 at the time He retired the following year The end of his career He's taking any fight you can get for money And he walks in and he was Aps, he was a beautiful athlete He had the black Moher suit

The black tie And the white shirt And he comes in and he puts his arm around me And he says hi Ray Robinson I said yeah I know It's like meeting Elvis If you were an Elvis fan

And what's your name And I told me you know Wait do you fight Wow I can hardly speak. I'm going to hyperventilating here. So we said, he said, let's go and train. So we went in to the church hall, decked out like a proper gym.

It was about maybe 100, 150 people around the perimeter to watch the training. They knew that Sugar A was coming. I didn't know. I didn't think about it. I did my sparring. And then, and the next punch bag to Sugar A. Romison. And I can't train for watching them. Just, you know, he was a dancer as well.

Even at that age? Yes. You're still watching it, 43. Beautiful. And he sparred with Myelahoon, he came and spoke to us as well. And he traveled with him. And Instagram,

a few weeks ago, I got a message from My La Cahoon's son in New York. And he said, did you ever meet my dad? And I said, I did actually. And so that was a wonderful,

wonderful day for me. It was like winning a lot of them. I can't imagine. I'm trying to think, wow. I'm trying to think who would that. be for me? Because we don't have, I don't feel like this era has that. Like I was trying to think, who would I see as a boxing, a box room? Oh my, I don't know who that is. Or maybe that's

just because I work in the sport now and I feel like I see them quite a lot. Yeah. I feel like it's Floyd. Floyd would still be that. Yeah, you're right. It still would be Floyd. We was out at the Wilder Fife, Wilde Ortiz too, right? And we were there to interview Lennox Lewis so we had access to just be anywhere, right? Yeah. So we're standing, we didn't have any allocated seats and you know when the fight starts, everybody comes to sit in their seat. So we're kind of floating around in between places. And there's like a curtain from the back entrance to come out just before. And there's a curtain.

And I'm just, for some reason, my eyes just went to the curtain. And the curtain popped open. Boom. And there's Floyd. Floyd just popped out. It was about to walk out and he realized it was the wrong way to go. And he popped his head out. And I've opened up.

I tap KG. I was like, yo, bro, Floyd is there. He goes, don't lie. Shut up, man. Let's just watch the fight. I couldn't believe it. So I have to say Floyd did that for me. Floyd, probably. Floyd, isn't it?

Yeah, yeah. It is Floyd. All right, so, Sugar Ray Robinson, which is probably one, but we're still trying to have the argument. I've gone, Henry Armstrong. 183 fights, 100 knockouts. Say in those numbers today don't make any sense. No, no.

183 fights, 100 knockouts makes no sense. I think I've done an injustice. I think it's 101 knockouts, by the way. Yeah. Sorry, Kedgy, Trev, good luck. So, yeah, no, it's tough. I mean, even the compelling story to go with it, I'm like, I want to go and back heat.

I should basically bang the bell now. But just for the sake of it, right? So I know Carmen Basilio is going to be someone I fight for. And that's because he actually beat Sugar Ray Robinson. And, you know, in the rematch, Sugar Ray was able to get the nod the other way. But, you know, this was it a middleweight, Travis? Was that middleweight? Yeah.

Oh, you can't second. Let's call it work. Get that. Stopped on my feet in the first. Red cards. Yeah, yeah, no, no. But no, no, no, honestly, I think, look, Sugar Ray Robinson, I don't even need to throw it to Tom.

Sugar Ray Robinson. It's unanimous way. You're right. Consider the best boxer of all time. So let alone the best world to it of all time. And there's actually always been there's comparisons with Floyd, like what Floyd would have done to Sugar Ray Robinson,

what Sugar Ray would have done to Floyd. And the biggest compliment I can give Floyd is that some people think Floyd would have won. And that's the biggest compliment, but I think Sugar Ray Robinson was the complete boxer. 100%. More complete than Joe Lewis. Yes.

I think so. You just like him. I'm a Lewis fan. There's a Ray Robinson. You know when you watch these old-time fights, right? He's one of the rare few of those old areas that I look at and think, as you are, you land him in today's modern world, and he competes at the top level. That's the thing, in it.

Because sometimes you watched him and they look slow, they look a bit like, really? You watch Ray Robinson. Straight in. And you're like, okay. Okay. I just wonder, like, how and why? Why was he so far in front of everyone in that era? Well, what you've got to remember is he did suffer defeat.

and you talk, you know, in the middleweight division, particularly and so on. However, you said something interesting there, Travis, and what transfers between the eras is simple, talent? Right. So if you've got the talent, no matter what era you box in, you will survive in a more modern era, you would have survived. So I think the question is, you know, could these other guys that we've been talking about? Survive in that era.

Could they have survived in that era? I think that's a more interesting question. Some of them wouldn't. But certainly Henry Armstrong, he's up there. I mean, fantastic to do what he did. Yeah, to float between weights, I think is incredible. And again, this is not, you know, this is the eight-weight era. That's right.

That's right. You know what nonsense of your. A burbe king takes you up and a weight class. This is when you had to jump weights as well. And also, you remember, in those days, you're weighing in the same day as you fought. You weighed in in the morning and you fought at night. The day and they're weighing in the day before.

So by the time they reach the ring of fight night, how much more have they put on in terms of poundage? Your sales order says one thing, your inventory, says another. Your spreadsheet says, good luck. Odu brings your business together on a single platform, From sales and accounting to inventory and marketing. Visit Odu.com to book a demo. It's ODbolo.com.

Get more with BBC Podcasts, wherever you listen. Be the first to listen to your favorite shows, like evil genius, good, bad billionaire, and You're Dead to Me, with a subscription to BBC Podcasts Premium on Apple Podcasts. You can also enjoy a range of our podcasts ad-free with an Amazon music subscription. Okay. So that's Trav One. Frank won. I did a depot nil. But the best bit is I go first now.

All right. I go first now. And I'm going to the golden age. And so I've won because I'm talking Sugar Ray Leonard. And we are talking about, you know, when we think of complete fighters, Sugar Ray Leonard had just the lot. Chin, which we don't talk about when we speak about fighters nowadays. We always talk about what they do go in offensively rather than defensively. Shurray took some cracks. But he was probably in the era where there was killers

that don't get spoken about. Alfredo Benitez doesn't get spoken about. Aaron Pryor doesn't get spoken about. We always likes to say, okay, you know, Roberta Duran and you know, Marvelous Marvin Hagler and Tommy Harns, what about the other ones that he fought? And he fought the lot. And that's why I just love Shuggler.

And he was a superstar as well. And yes, we know he off the rails. He had all the influences outside, but he still came back and still put on wars for us. He had a hand speed that could only be comparable to, I don't know, I'm thinking of Paciel and Zab Judah and Young Floyd. So he had hand speed, he had a punch power, great feet, charismatic, had a chin, good looking, which doesn't really mean anything, but less has added in anyway. He was just phenomenal. So for me, I'm getting in the golden age, I'm saying the best world to wait at that era

and it's not easy because there are so many has to be Sugar Ray Leonard. Travis, you next. I'm going to Tommy Hearns. Going to Tommy Hearns. I've been a huge fan of Tommy Hearns since I started boxing. Same height as him, that's why.

Same height and I was the same weight as him as well. So I used to train down at Shadowell Boxing Gym. My trainer Ray McCallum at the time was just like, go and study Tommy Hearns immediately. He goes to your carbon copy build-wise. But, you know, one thing that Tommy Hearns doesn't get enough credit for, right?

Because he's such a disheaned. destructive puncher. People don't talk about how great his boxing is. You rarely see Tommy Hearns be outboxed. His jab is one of the best ever, right? He's tall, rangy fighter. He obviously had a bill to go up in weight, but at 147, he was complete danger for anybody.

One single shot would put you to sleep. Now, the second fight... I think he could have beaten anyone on his day at 147. That's the biggest compliment I can give to me. Anybody. And there's even a case that a lot of people believe he won the second fight with Sugar Ray Leonard. I don't know who you.

Yeah, when he knocked him down. Don't remember that. I thought, when did that happen? I have no idea when that I thought happened. He was absolutely phenomenal. And I think, you know, he had the grit, the heart and was always ready to go to war. I think Tommy Hearns stands above Sugar Ray Leonard for me in this one. I think that knockout of Roberta Duran is still one of the most violent punches I've ever seen.

I think it's the most pure connection of a punch I think of ever. Yeah. And the refs started counting, by the way. Yeah, it's American wrestling. Ridiculous. Frank, there's no point even having your go because it's either going to be Tommy or sugar. But feel free to have a go, Frank. No, no, I agree.

There's so many, so many brilliant men. Robert Geran, okay. Yeah, yeah. But he didn't get the credit he deserved for his defensive attributes in boxing. Roberto. Yeah, true. Of course, that knockout. But then we're talking about a middleweight again.

They were at middleweight when he knocked him out. Now, quite how it would have gone had they been well to. I don't know. But you're right. How can you look past herons in terms of height and his reach, he's punching power. However, he took a hell of a lot of punches. One of the things I think clearly about is how do these boxers defend?

That's the number one issue for me. You know, you can't go out the ring and say, I'm going to bash your head in. Okay, I'm going to hit you 34 times in a few rounds. You'll help me 30 times. Who's one? You're having four times more. You know, you've got to look at the defensive aspects of boxing as well.

And not just about, we're talking about big punchers, attacking, ferocity in their fighting and all that stuff. Hernes was a great fighter, marvelous fight. wonderfully exciting we took a lot of punches however we can look at Geran I would

I have to pick somebody I'll go for Roberta Geron okay you know when you was I thought you was segue in perfectly to Penal Whitaker I thought you was when you started talking defensively I think he's going to say sweet pee he's going to say sweet pee

because defensively genius yeah sure like he was doing moves like you know like Loma But in today's age, kind of just is not there, then he's there. Sweet P was that. Yeah. Sweet P was that. Obviously, later in time, so not the 70s, but that 80s, 90s period, which had great

World War II, Tito Trinidad. Yes. I mean, Tito. I know. I mean, there's been, Tita's only problems came when he went to middleweight. At Walterweight, Tito was, couldn't touch him. Could not touch him. Yeah.

Could not touch him. And Chavez. And Chavez. Oly says, Chavez. What a fighter he was. Yeah. It's such a bit. 107 fights are thereabouts.

And, you know, these guys are just giving it all. Now we're looking at our boxers in the modern era who are having three fights a year. And they're busy. If they have two, that's pretty much the norm. And we're grateful as fans. So, you know, these are remarkable warriors. I love the welterweights of that era. Yeah.

Fantastic. Yeah, I think the world, I think just world to weights in general. I don't know what it is, but I think almost heavyweights and the lack of stars opened up the door for world to wage just to become the stars. 100%. And World's Waits now become this, obviously it's died a bit recently, but it's become the division. Yeah. Yeah, it's like after Muhammad Ali, Sugar Ray Leonard arrived. That's what it was.

This new pretty boy and he was fierce like he was a bad guy. So, do you know what I mean? He just captured the people and he had the dance partners. That rival with Tommy Hearns, the storyline with Roberto Duran, it just played so beautifully. And obviously, you know, this was up in middleway, but the Hagler situation, you've got stars that have come from these divisions, whereas it's not always been maintaining. but when they come along, man. All right, but so we're saying Ray Leonard? Yeah, yeah.

Guys, we are all even going into the final round. We are all even. Modern Masters. Modern Masters was you. We went Floyd. Pioneers, you, Ray Robinson. Golden Age, myself, Sugar Ray Leonard. We're now left with one subject.

And you are first to go, Trave. It's the destroyers. Who had that one quitter hitter. that could put your lights out. And what your problem is? You've got Tommy Hans already, my friend. Told you, don't go early. Don't go early.

Save those bullets. Okay. As Travis stalls through this one. I'm going to go. Can I go? Yeah. Can I go? Can I go?

There's a name that, and I'm going to have to be very honest for I had to do a bit of research about this guy. I had to watch his knockouts. Pepino Quavas. Yeah? The Tijuana Torpedo. Yes. Now, the problem with Pepino is that he was in a period where,

everyone was there in the 70s. So he lost many a time. 35 wins, though. He's 35 wins, 31 knockouts. Now, I tell everyone listening, watching this, just go and watch a highlight package of his knockouts.

You'd think this guy has fought with loaded gloves. Because he's putting people to sleep with left short hooks and they're staying down. And he's wiry. Very Tommy Hearns-esque wiry. And by the way, as much as I say

he fought in an era where there were killers, he was a world to weight champion. He had like four or five defenses. Pepino Quevas is a knockout maestro. Lost many, I think he lost double digits, 15 or 16. When he knocked you out, when you were hurt, you stayed hurt. You stayed hurt. And he is almost my, I don't know, my hipster pick here.

This is a hipster pick for biggest puncher in the World to Weight Division. Pepino Quevas. Because we've mentioned so many other names and we can't mention names again. So thank you. I won. No, yeah. No, you haven't. Stop, stop, stop, sorry.

I'm going to make a case for Sugar Ray Leonard in this category. Wait, wait, sorry, Judge. Can't do it. Can't do it. It's already been mentioned. He's already. He's on the table because I'd said it. No, no, no, because it's been on the table already.

Oh, I thought it's because I'd said it. Okay, cool. Then in that case, then I go, Felix Trinidad. Does that... Counts? Of course that counts. Hasn't been said? Yeah, stop trying to get me out of him.

Felix Trinidad was an absolute banger. Yeah, he was. Do you know what I mean? His left hook was something to behold. Fantastic. You know what I mean? We're talking about in this category, it's just punch power. Single punch power.

Obviously, the skill attached to it, you know, to facilitate and use the power. But he is up there with some of the best devastating punches in this division. 100%. And you know, the thing about Tito, I like to call him Tito because we're friends, me and Tito. The thing about Tito Trinidad is it didn't even look like he was loading up. That's what's scary. You know, like some people, like we talked about Wilder before. he thought like you know it's coming

Tito, doom flow state and what's going on what's happening there and the guy's out and you're like did he even get hit that was Tito Trinidad

so you know that's a great shout I tried to go hipster I think you've gone real and Tito Trinidad Let me flow in a name Go ahead Go on Frank

Kid Gavalan Oh he's done this He's gone old The Cuban Yeah we're talking about the 1950s here Yeah

He was the guy who kind of invented The Bolo Punch Yes Yes No, the opposite. The opposite. Down underneath.

So the ball of punch, it's attributed to a Filipino boxer whose name I can't remember. I apologize. But the ball of punch came from the way they cut the sugar cane. Right. So it was up this way. And so Kid Gavilan was the expert exponent of the ball of punch. And so too is Sugar-Aid Robinson. You see these uppercuts coming.

And that was where it starts here and it comes right up there. You know, and it's debiless. If you catch one. So, Kid Gavlin, Cuban, 19 in the night, he was a wealthyweight champion. Sugar Ray Robinson beat him,

not for the title, but he beat him on route in his wealthyweight career. And I think he needs to be up there among the big names. And if you go and look at his videos, you'll see what a fighter he was. He was, he was on a par

in terms of fighting and aggression with Duran and Herons and all these guys. Yeah. And tremendous career. I could tell you a couple of other more to this time, Waterways that could crack as well.

Zab Judah could crack. Oh, yeah. Zab Judah could really, really hit. Again, too many off-the-field issues, if you like, away from boxing. But in terms of power in that left hand as well, he could crack. And the number one who had sort of concussive power

who kind of grind you down was Antonio Margarito. Now, there is question marks because of maybe loading drugs and stuff and that, but that boy, it felt like he was hitting you, well, he was hitting you or something. There you go, yeah, yeah, yeah. What about Ricky Hatton? At Walter? That, yeah. At Walter? At Walter or like Walter?

That's the, one-fought he's more Ricky, isn't it? 140's more Ricky. But that left to the body, he still, he always had that in the tuck. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you know what I mean? If he lands that, you're going to be wriggling on a canvas, mate. So he, I think he's an honourable mention thing. I wouldn't fight from to be at the top

but honourable mention for punch power for sure. I think we've got a look even further back than my kid Gavillan one. There's a guy called Mickey Walker who was called the Toy Bulldog. Let me just, he had a 164 contest and it was overseen

and he had 93 wins. And this guy was bot he was a middleweight but he started to fight like heavy weights like Harry Greb. Harry Greb would fight like heavy weights, heavy weights,

anybody. These were real fighters, you know, because they were hungry fighters. None of this kind of will fight twice a year or once a year. It will fight once a month because they were hungry fighters. That's where the expression came from because they needed to put food on the table to feed their families. So guys like Harry Greb and Mickey Walker deserve a mention. Yeah. All right. So looking at the names that we both went with, so I went with Pepino-Cuevas, went left field. You went.

Felix Trinidad. I went to Kid Gavalin. Good Gavalin. I'm going to go to Tom and ask who's the winner of that one. Because Tom, I personally think it's me. No. But because, A, that I went really left field, so I did a bit of research. I heavily disagree on that, mate.

If we're talking about knockout, Quabas. Quabas, there you go. Oh, my God. There you go. Wow. The one whole thing. Oh, my word. Hang on.

Not sure about the whole thing. Okay. In terms of what we agree with. In terms of round by round, but in terms of list, I've got a different view over here. Okay. Let's go to you, Tom, then. Go on, Tom, tell me. In terms of who you actually think won this waterweight discussion.

We all agree. Sugar Ray Robinson is the best of the best. Yes. Frank's got him in his list. Yeah. Duran, I don't think he is a lotterweight. He's a lightweight. He's a lightweight.

Yeah. But I think he would give Mayweather the biggest problems out of anyone on the list. Yeah. His style of fight. Sugar Ray Leonard, most adaptable, in my opinion. So it's a split decision. I'm going with Frank again. I'm sorry.

What's this ages thing? He's getting an ages thing. He's got Robinson. He's got Ray Robinson. Right. Don't look at me. I'm taking this up with a board. I am the board.

I am the board. By the way, Tom, do you take cash? Either. Oh, mate. But you know what I like? We've got three fantastic world to wait from three different eras

that have always been discussed about how this would work out. It was always Sugar Ray Leonard versus Sugar Ray Robinson and then it got past Sugar Ray Leonard versus Floyd Maywe. And if we had a fourth chair, that fourth child would say, Sugar Ray, sorry, Mayweather versus Terence Crawford, right?

And then I'm guessing, in five years' time, could be Shakur Stevenson, they always will find someone. Yeah. I think Shakur's going to jump up and do some good business. Good division, isn't it? It really is a sexy division. He's picking up big time now as well. That was tough.

It's not easy, isn't it? That was really tough. It's really, really hard to pick. And I like what you said about Shakur Stevenson. Because there are too few good technical boxers around. He's one who's really top raw. Excellent. And he looks like he's got the size to kind of get to that weight class now as well.

I was really impressed with that to your female Lopez performance. I didn't expect him to dominate the way he did. It was pretty easy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was good. All right, there you go, guys. The Waterway discussion, as they say, is in the books.

But we haven't finished yet because it's up to you guys at home to decide who wins. Tom went with Frank. I went with myself. Obviously, I think Trev went with me as well. If I remember correctly. So you guys do the right thing at home. We'll see you next time. With a subscription to the BBC website and app,

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