5 Live Boxing with Steve Bunce - The Brand New Heavies

Episode Date: July 13, 2026

It's been a hectic few weeks in the heavyweight division since Oleksandr Usyk vacated his world titles, giving Buncey and Barry plenty to get stuck into. They assess Murat Gassiev's first defence of his WBA heavyweight crown, discuss the bizarre ending to Joe Joyce's comeback fight and whether it's finally time for him to call it a day. They also debate the potential venues for the long-awaited Anthony Joshua v Tyson Fury showdown, with Barry making a passionate case for Cardiff, before looking at where the rest of the heavyweight titles could end up. Plus, they give their verdict on reports that Usyk could face Deontay Wilder in what may be his final fight.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. He's widely recognised as one of the greatest footballers in history. He's won the prestigious Ballandour Award five times. He's the all-time leading goal scorer in professional football. And according to the Bloomberg Billionaires Index, he's the first active footballer in history to achieve billionaire status. Guess who we're talking about yet? That's right. Good Bad Billionaire is exploring the life and fortune of football icon Cristiano Ronaldo.

That's good bad billionaire from the BBC World Service. Listen now, wherever you get your BBC podcasts. This is Five Live Boxing. It's the summer, they said. There'll be no boxing, they said. And suddenly, AJ's got to fight in Jeddah. And then suddenly Tyson Fury's got to fight in Pataya. And they're going to fight later in the year.

And then Alexander Usik gives up three of his belts. Suddenly, two men instantly become World Heavyweight champions. One of them's defended his title. I thought they said to be no boxing this lovely, glorious. hot London summer. But guess what? There's boxing everywhere. All I want to do is put a hat on and sit in the sun and just tan my fat belly. I'm Steve Bunn's and this is Five Live Boxing. So there's about 74 heavyweights that we have to mention. There's about 68 stories that we have to go through and I have to reach out obviously to the number one man, the top man for sitting here.

And there's no joke. I'm not going to say X and then X wasn't available. That's a tacky joke. No, the only man I could get in to do the job was a very, very slim-looking Barry Jones. In fact, we're going to go, we're going to start, first of all, but, Bill, with a new look. Hang, you made up like you were looking for me, and I was your only go. Then you said, the only go we could get.

Oh, shoot, did I slip out that way? Did it again, yeah. No, but let me just tell you something. Not five years ago, Barry was sitting opposite me at four in the morning. We were doing, I don't know, Mayweather fight or something fight from America. And suddenly I felt something hit me just above my eye. And what it was, Barry at that point was consuming an awful lot of sweets

and an awful lot of junk food. And a button had popped from his waistcoat nearly took my eye out. And I'm looking at it now. I mean, the man is, you're looking good, Bell. A new training regime. No, no, I do. I do a little bit of training. But, you know what, like, I was eating two tons

of ice cream a week. You were? I mean, and literally, five packet of biscuits, I mean, it should be massive. But I might have a really good metabolism. You should be 23 stone. Oh, me. And that would not be nice.

I eat late at night. I mean, I'm doing the ironing. You eat the wrong time. Two o'clock in, I'm ironing quite often. I'm like crazy. But anyway, I just cut that out. It was really hard for about two months now. And I was still eating,

but I just cut that all the crap. And now I'm starting to eat a little bit more rubbish now because I was losing too much. A bit more comfortable. Well, you stop eating all the crap. Then you start, then you get all the rubbish food. Then it's sort of like suppresses your appetite for normal food in a little bit.

And I was missing out. My meals were too big. I was too big for me. And as Kate Moss said, nothing tastes better than thin. I don't know what that means. I'm just saying, you know, there's that sort of Kate Mossy looks. Anyway, I'm a little guy who's trodusts getting too big, you know what I mean?

And I got short legs. I can't have a big waist because my legs are too short. That's the bottom. So, I don't know for you, you've got long legs. Yeah, we'll crack on. So about three or four weeks ago, we've had a really busy time with this show, putting out some fantastic and fabulous stuff. But about three weeks ago now,

Alexander Usick decided and most of us thought that would happen that he'd relinquish his three remaining belts, championship belts, and not walk away from boxing, but take up other options. He was being forced into a fight with A, a forced into a fight with B, forced into a fight with C.

None of them he felt made any sense. The RICO Verhoeven rematch didn't seem to make any sense to him. And Ajit Kabeel made no sense to him. I understand all of that. So he's walked away. We'll talk about what he might do because that includes a possible fight with Deonti Wilder and possibly on Zoufa, Dana White's new platform.

But he left some gaps behind. Three belts vacant. One of them still vacant. That's the IBF belt. This is the interesting one because it makes all the sense in the world for Philip Hergovich and Moses Itam. We fight in late August in an eliminator to be upgraded to a four world championship fight. However, it's not because Frank Chances is number one.

And then, of course, the IBF do that beautiful thing. They leave number two vacant. So Moses is three, Hergovich is four. it's not going to be for the vacant title it should be for the vacant title I say what say you Barry I think it should be but the thing I like about the IBF is they do stick to their guns

more than any other organisation I'm not saying it better than any other other organisation but they take a bit of moral high ground they go this is what we're doing and that's it and once they say that they stick to their word quite often so I understand that I was worried that the Hergovich fight wasn't going to happen because why would you take that risk

you know what I mean and for Sanchez how long is he going to wait as well for his shot at Moser, you presume Moses the Tarmer, I'm thinking of Moser for the chance to be crowned the world champion. I'm glad no one's an interim champion

and being upgraded via Netter because that's no one or someone will talk about that way. We'll get to that in a second. But yeah, I think it's it's a good time. I mean, sometimes with all these older fighters, you know, sort of

keeping on the titles for too long and picking and choosing their opposition, it almost I mean Mayweather and Pachia had there for a long time and all that new generation of talent don't get the chance to show them

they are. They're stifled and some of them then they lose a bit of their edge when they get there no I mean usually do the right thing

I mean his career is done now he can go do what he wants to do he can fight anyone he can vote Verhoven every day of the week now it's about it

it affects no one's career when he's a champion it affects everybody's career and it affects the sport But no, it doesn't because he's a great fighter who's sort of semi-retired now, you would say that much. Yeah, I think this fair's done. And he can pick any fight he wants because it doesn't hold anyone's career up.

And that's always been my book bit about automatic rematches. No, I mean, Fury and Wilder kept everyone's career as was on pause because they have to box three times. I mean, why do they have to box three times? It's ridiculous. I mean, understand after the first. Well, it ruined everything. It ruined the AJ and Tyson Fury fight,

which was signed and sealed for August 14th for the year, the last year it fell for. through, you know, Paddy already had tickets for us to go to Rehead. I think Paddy had organised hotels. We were going in 2021. It was done. It was set in Stoneberry. And poor Dylan, why?

I don't think Dylan would whether beat Fury at the time or even Wander. He deserved the shot. He deserved his shot. And he got his shot. He was past his peak. And so who knows what would have happened? Either way, you know, but it helped, not just them. It held up, everyone's clear, all the way down the line.

And that's my bug bear. But this note, Uzik doing that, hasn't done that. And I admire him more for that than keeping on for titles he doesn't need to keep. we have had, and lots of fighters have lost out on this. You mentioned Dillian White there. There's a few other fighters we could mention. I'm going to make a case for Joe Joyce in a minute, who may have had his last fight in Moscow at the weekend.

We'll talk about that in a second. There's obviously Dillian White. Asi Kabil has been waiting in the wings. We'll talk about that in a second. But what we have had, because of those fighters have lost out, we did have the trilogy with Fury and Wild, which was sensational. Let's get that right.

And we did have the six fights, Ussick, against the three, Brits. But it's irrelevant or good the fights were. Okay. I mean, you've got to stick to... That's a good argument. I would say,

because the Fury's third fight with, well, it was the best one. You're without a doubt. But after the second... At the first fight was a draw, so we had to... And controversial draw, we all thought.

So they had to go again, of course. But the second fight was so conclusive for Tyson Fury. There was no need for the third fight. Except, Wild had a contract. And Shelley Finko had a contract, and he forced it through.

But then these organizations should say, well, that's irrelevant. Your contract is your contract. But if you want to fight you... I mean, no one's going to do that. I know I'm talking. And the third fight was the best fight to watch for all of us. You know, I understand that.

The new slimmer you's a dreamer, Bell. You're a dreamer. The old Barry carrying a cup of stone. It was a cynical man. Now you're a dreamer. The good thing is now we've got a whole heap of young fighters. Coming through. Including Dubai.

Even Gassahev, who's not young, but he's young to this division. Well, let's stick. All those fighters now have got a chance to prove themselves and stamp their authority. Let's stick with Gassahev. Maybe a race to UCU's number one. Well, let's stick with Gassav. So we're in Usik Hands, back the belts. The IBF belt.

That's still vacant with French Sanchez as number one. Moses Atama fights. Philip Hergovich. Peter Herlovich is his cousin from Croatia, obviously. So they fight in August, and I'm assuming the winner of that, fight Sanchez. That's mad for Sanchez. He doesn't get a world title fight until next year.

So expect Sanchez to be matched with someone who isn't that dangerous. Hey, ho, that's the way the business works. And that certainly happened with the WBA, who upgraded the Russian Murat Gassieff, upgraded him. He fights on all those IBA shows around the world that I don't go to and I'm not a big fan of the IBM.

That's okay. I can say that. IBM, you've got it in IBF me. Absolutely. Well, maybe I'm not a big fan of the IBM. No, that's unfair. I like that were people. I'm not a big fan of the IBA.

So, Mouick Gassaf finds out he's been upgraded. At two weeks notice, they find a German called Peter Kadira and who, I think he'd lost one fight and I looked at the guy that beat him. It was dreadful. He steps in, loses every round.

So Murek Gaseyev on last Saturday in Moscow defended his full FU-W-L and check the spelling on that. WBA heavyweight championship of the world. Super champion in the call. Super champion, yeah, he's the boss man, top man. But, yeah, I mean, it was a late note this fighter

and he turned it around. They had some opponents who pulled out in there because he couldn't make the fight. And so Peter Kadira stepped in. He was a good young fighter. Yeah. But it's issues with his... stamina at a lower level.

And massively undermatched, Barry. So he was never going to win that fight, and it was way too easy for Gassia. But Gassiav, you know, put on a good, I've not said a good performance. I was in Dubai in December when he beat Kubra Pulev. Kubev. And he wasn't boxing great of control. You told me you thought he was losing that night. Is that your gut feeling? Yeah, yeah,

I won't score on the fight, but I was watching as a spectator. He wasn't doing anything. He didn't throw a punch. Then he threw a punch. It was lovely left duck, and it put, and it was a good shot. It didn't put him to sleep, but he unraveled dramatically. So Gassiav is physically strong and he's a presence and he's a better fighter than what we saw that night

and what we saw on Saturday. He's better now because he didn't have to do much. Yeah. But is he going to be a real player? He knows he's a world champion now and that's what he is. Is he going to be a player or a threat to any of those bigger heavyweights? I'm not quite sure.

It was going to be Tony Yoker. It was interesting to Tony Yoker. There's a new Tony Yoker. There's the Tony Yoker who won the Olympics, controversy from Joe Joyce in 2016, a decade. Ten summers ago, as I like to call it, a decade ago, who lost his way. Had a couple of good wins, then lost his way,

had some problems away from boxing, fell crash, fell to the floor, should have been at the Paris Olympics opening ceremony as one of the last three men to carry the torch on the opening ceremony. Do you know that? He was one of, he was a toss-up. That's how big Tony Yoker was, right?

And where was he? Where was he on the night where the Olympic torch was lit? Do you know where he was? I don't. No, no, because you do know where he was. You've just forgotten. Because you've driven past it. You've been there in a 350-grid doing commentary.

He was at the Tollworth Leisure Centre, boxing for a thousand euros when he should have been in front of a billion people, two people away from lighting the torch at the Olympics. Tony Yocas, fought his way back, had an injury, pulled out very short notice, and I'm leading to something here. Joe Joyce was on that bill.

We're going to talk about Joe in a moment. And Joe Joyce allegedly, was offered it or they talked about Joe Joyce. Joe Joyce was a much better opponent than Peter Cadillo. I know what happened on to Joe Joyce on Saturday, but he was a much better opponent on paper, in my opinion. Yeah, he was, but judging off his last performance, you wouldn't put him in with anyone of any sort of note,

like Agassie Hebrose, he's physically strong. But Hurgovich would have walked through, if he'd have fought for Kadira in his last fight, he would have walked through. Well, any of those top hewers would be Kadira because he's not ready and maybe never will be ready. But Joe Joyce Was ready

Has been good At the time was ready Never got his opportunity And then hang wrong too long Taking fights that were too dangerous And then got beat But his Invincibility

Yeah Resilience has gone But his belief in his Resilience has gone as well And that's why he quit on Saturday He walked away in the 11th round Against Arta Well we should have done this latter

On the show But I don't care about It's the first time You had a chat for a million years He walked away in the 11th round from after about, there's about 70 seconds left against Artem Susslenko, waved his hand, the referee panicked. Susslankov didn't panic.

He hit Joe with four or five shots. Joe takes them, turns away again, then finally the referee goes in. That has to be the end of Joe's career. I know Joe's 40 years of age now. He's beat some great guys. We forget that run he went on, which concluded knocking out Joseph Parker

and forcing Daniel Dubois when Joe was behind on all three scorecards to quit in round 10. Do you remember the chat we had... Sorry, I interrupt you then. It's all right, son. I was flying. Someone had to.

But we were in some stock room somewhere after he boxed Hurgovich. Yeah, it was in... Yeah, it was in that... Talking about him, and I said this is enough now because the big thing about the damage after boxing, you know,

the aftercare and how, you know, it accelerates as you get older and you can bring it back. You can... The brain, you can repair it. No, no. It's damaged. And the physical stuff, maybe you can get a fix.

You can get new knees, new everything. Yeah, of course, yeah. But you can't get a new brain. And there's been signs there. I mean, it's not the worst one. We've got other boxes in the UK that are showing worse signs of that. Longshould have past in the medicals, you know, out of the box. I mean, but there's signs there of a kid who is intelligent that maybe you call it a day.

Money's money. And we all want to earn loads of money. We all do. John would have made some good money, Bow. He's in about 15 massive fires. Yeah, but earning good money is all relative to your life. Yeah, cool. it's good money, but then you earn good money,

you have better nicer things and bigger things and bigger things about expensive things. So then that big money becomes just normal, normal wages for you. But he hasn't earned those millions, no, take home that's in the bank, I don't have to worry about it, like some of the other guys. So he has to keep fighting for that. And also, there's all, the problem with boxing,

especially heavy boxing, there's always one more fight where they might be 200 grand, 400 grand, whatever they may be, 50 grand, I know, it's all good money. The IBA do pay good money and set, You know, Suss Lankoff is one of their guys. He was unbeaten, but Joe should have come through, okay, in my opinion. And just before we go back to Alexander vacating,

if Joe had been the interim champion, now he'd have been upgraded to full champion. When he was the interim WBO champion, at that particular time, that was a tricky old time in the heavyweight division. We will go back to Ajic Cabo in the WBC. Trust me. There was a really tricky time, I think, in the heavyweight division, because what we had then, bizarrely, is we had Ussick with most of the the belts, deciding to fight Daniel Dubois in Poland, a man who Joe Joyce had beaten,

when Joe was the interim champion. It was a good trip that was. By the way, it was a great chip. And then a couple of months later, the WBC champion, Tyson Fury, who will face any man, fight any man, will talk about his next fight in a moment. He fights a guy that had never had a fight. So Joe Joyce, that was a fun scene in Garnu, Joe Joyce. Another good trip.

And when I talk about Joe Joyce being avoided over. overlooked, ignored and unlucky. I'm not, I'm not hyping it. And then he fights, Xie Le Zhang, who's only lost, I think, in 26. 26 fights was to Philip Hergevich, controversially in Jeddah on the undercarl of the second Usick and AJ fight.

Wasn't a good trip. No, do you like it? I didn't like that, that Jeddah trip. I was literally there for less than 24 hours. That's the trip where Richie and I went on, got onto the F1 track for a hole in the fence and walked the F1 track. That was one of those periods like recently where you forgot all about me. We dropped you out.

I do the world feed then and get paid double money. But still, carry on. I remember we flew in about eight people. I'm trying to think. I'll have to pick the paddy in that one and find out where he didn't fly you in. It was hot and we're going back to Jeddah in a minute. Barry, let's get back to Alexander Usig. The WBO belt isn't vacant.

He gave that up last year. Yeah. And then Daniel Dubois managed to stop Fabio Wardley in one of the fight of the years, fight the decade contenders. My understanding is that the WBO belt, obviously, Dubois is still the champion, that he will have a rematch with Wardley. That's what I keep hearing. You probably don't want that.

you've got a massive... How many pages are your contract with this own? How many pages is it? I mean, is it like telephone book, style. Oh, we've had to amend it, though, because no I'm off the sweets. That was part of it. We had to be white.

Yo, you were to cut, you were the cuddly overweight Welshman. Jelly babies and kickats? But I'm... You get paid in five kilos. It's a nice few quid and 70 kilos. They're lovely people who work me, but they've got me over the battle, man. They're going to have me sweeping the floors and everything.

Oh, yeah, I've heard about the advert you might or may not be making. The WBC belt was vacant overnight. The WBC, Maurizio Suleiman struck instantly within 12 hours of Ucic giving up the belts. He'd awarded it. And I've got no problem with it to Ajik Kabeel, who should have had a well-title fight last year, or even the year before.

He could have had a well-title fight in 2024. The thing is, he should have. But the internet, and the new, that is something you dream of in your bedroom, your shadow boxing. I mean, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was chuggedy lenned every time I, I, I got, I looked in the middle of a shadow boxing, you know, I was going to be, I can see the lightness in the dark, yeah, but, no, but, I mean, you know, whatever you, the new and the new and the new and the new, the point of it's when you box are a vacant belt, you know, you still, but I mean, but when they say it, of course, yeah, but that's something you dream of and they're not going to get, like Dubai has never had it. No, amenis sister, they've always had, and, no, hand me down. And still. deserve it because they run good fight. It's not the fight this fault.

It's not the user. Someone's going to say you want to know you deserve the battle. You're going to take it. You're going to take it. Of course. But I mean, like he didn't, he gets a fight.

He should be number one contender. Yeah. And there you go. And now he fights the number two contender. And he gets a winner in Germany, which is a great place to go, by the way, for him. It was a wicked atmosphere.

In January, that seems like what three years ago, right? Yeah, it does, doesn't it? It was one of the best. I know. I'm sick. I missed that. It was unbelievable. That would have been jolly. Paddy didn't fancy it. Probably didn't fancy it. I would have gone out of done maybe a couple of quick reports for the B, part of my deal.

But I did fancy Germany. And so I'm a massive German. Love with fights in Germany. I was sick and I missed it. Because he's German-Kurdish, isn't he? Yeah. But he's proper... He's embraced a German lifestyle. He's got a fast car. There was loads of his people there. And they were all glassy eyes. They're drinking loads.

But there was not one. a bit of trouble. Yeah, I guess that. It's not part of what they do. They're all built like Mammon. They're all sick as they're all sick as they're at all. They're all massive. And they're all bumping into each other and you,

but not like, you know, they're almost like bumping into you and then sort of grabbing you. You'd be in trouble now. The new slim you'd be really in trouble in that. Grabbing. How do you make sure you don't fall over? It was just, I mean,

and they packed the ringside. Yeah, they just packed it. And they all looked the same, didn't they? Shoulder, shoulder to shoulder literally. Yeah. But it's a massive. They're just built, but he was a great atmosphere.

It was loud as anything. And I think he can... As good as a Mario Huck day? Oh, easy. Peckhawk? Easy. Peak Huck? Yeah, it was...

I was... I mean, they said it was full of stadium with him. So he gets his chance now to show how good he is, how popular he is. And I think we're going to Germany on a regular basis. Well, just quickly, Bell, before we leave the Ousick, Ousick and Wilder looks like it's being getting closer and closer to being made. It was a fight we heard was going to happen in San Francisco. We heard five months ago.

It was going to happen in San Francisco in the summer. That's all vanished all of that San Francisco outdoors, 140,000 going straight to YouTube and no one having to buy a ticket. Who would have imagined that was maybe a fantasy? Anyway, it's not over here, not there. It does look very much like Wilder and Ouset will fight. And Ousick's reason for it, and he's talked about this

a couple of times of me over the last two or three years. He's taken care of all the world champions during his life, basically during his fighting life. He's beaten Dubois. He's beaten A.J., he's beaten Fury. There's no one left. I mean, obviously, he didn't fight Wardley, but Wardley was only a champion for a while.

But wild as the one, they shared over, they overlap. So he wants, and I can see that in a business, plus it's a marketable fight. Because I'm not, they're kind of, I mean, I've got to be really careful what we say here. It's almost like they've stepped outside of where we are. They're over in some kind of, I want to say sort of carnival boxing land, but legitimate. Yeah, it is. And I, I wouldn't be shocked if after this last performance, which is awful. Against Rico Verhoeven in, what a trip that was to the pyramid son.

It's like a travel show today. It was a really good trip. It was a really good trip, even though he almost got arrested. What did you get arrested for? Underpaying a camel rider. Me and Dad, because it was by, me and Dan Abaka took a walk over to the crew. We were there earlier at the venue, which was right by the Pyramus. You took a half hour walk to the pyramids.

Oh, wow. Walked around the pyramids. We didn't climb on him at all. We definitely didn't climb on them. We paid a dollar to touch on them, though. But just to say that, we weren't on him. And then as we were on the other side, the police were there, and they stopped us. What were you doing?

What are you doing? we tried to tell him we were over with the boxing but they wouldn't have it for a while and then Darren used that at London and got us out of trouble and then we had to jump on a random motorbike with some fella we never met before

three of us. Oh this is unbelievable. I sent the video on Instagram just three of us on the bike. He's widely recognised as one of the greatest footballers in history. He's won the prestigious Ballandeur Award five times. He's the all-time leading go scorer in professional football

and according to the Bloomberg billionaires in he's the first active footballer in history to achieve billionaire status. Guess who we're talking about yet? That's right. Good Bad Billionaire is exploring the life and fortune of football icon Cristiano Ronaldo. That's Good Bad Billionaire from the BBC World Service. Listen now, wherever you get your BBC podcasts. So Agit Kambayel's been upgraded.

He's full on WC. We don't know. Deonti Wilder and Ousick looks like it's going to happen. It looks like it's going to happen on Zouffer. Okay? Yeah, there's two marketable names there to give Zouf a little bit more creed. I mean, it's a market-the-world fight, it'll sell, and it'll sell in a stadium, in an arena and in America. So I think it's a good move for them.

But there's no relevance on the world scene anymore. That's what I was going to say. With Uzik, I think he realized after that fight, he either hasn't got it anymore, or he hasn't got what it takes to train like he used to. Because he looked either under-prepared or he's lost the step. Either way, complacent, which he never was before. but he was awful. Yes. And I think that might assure him,

listen, I can't compete now with the guys, with young, fresher guys who are going to be putting lots of pressure on me. And I think he's lost a step because I'm not being,

I'm not being an ass of time. I didn't like the way he was all week. Barry, just to say, hot off the press as we speak, as we recorded this, he's just been announced, Johnny Fisher,

who's giving us a lot of entertaining nights, has done the deal with Zufone, he's going to fight on September, September the 26th on his first show, Johnny Fisher. September the 20th. Yeah, September 10th, I don't know where it is. I can't read it from here.

London's Coppa. London's Coppa. London's Copa box. Coff. Cobra Bosch. As they call it. See, that's a good move for him because... No, no, good.

He's offered a lot of money. Eddie Heard said, go. What's Johnny Fisher going to do? Is he going to win a British title? Probably not. Maybe, you know, there's nothing wrong. When you say the people, they won't win a British title, people...

I'm not saying he's rubbish. It's unbelievable. In the British title? It's an achievement, by the way. Look at the ones who didn't win it, who tried. this is people something like Dave Allen who's not alright people criticising him about

Hergevich and what's going to say not going to fight Hurgovich from the most of them I've ever earned probably and the boxing Doncaster Stadium he wasn't good enough to fight him and we all knew that but if he's offered the fight don't blame him but blame the people who make the fight don't blame him but he've said

am I going to for the British title not if React Poe's champion he's honest about it I mean you know he might if Johnny Fisherer is a champion but he's not that area level's hard it depends on Absolutely is. In your area.

Because he's a big puncher. He's a marketable kid. Everyone loves him. He sells tickets. And he fights to his harm. And he can sell out the copper box almost. Yeah, yeah. So for Zufa, that's a good move.

In the short term. Not in the long term, because he's not going to be, you're not going to put your flag on him. I mean, in the short term to get him, as it is to get Wilder music, on the long term, they're not going to be wrong forever. But it gives you some standing and TV,

and it helps sell a TV date for that much. And they've real. with Chris Bill and Smith in Bournemouth. Yes. Atmospheric arenas. Dana White loved that. Very important. It was stunned by that day.

In America, not so much. No. But in the UK, the crowd make a massive, massive factor to how it looks on TV. Barry, we've already talked about AJ. We heard from AJ fighting Christian Peringo on the 25th of July.

Later this month, that would be. Since we made a pod, it's been announced that Tyson Fury will fight in front of about 3,000 people in Pataya, in Thailand against Marius Vacu, about 15 years ago fought for the World Everywhere Child. But it's still a big old lump. And I've got no problem with that as a fight with four weeks to cut,

four weeks no way, because it's because really what we're looking at here is where AJ goes after Prenge and where Fury goes after Vak. That fight, we just deal with this fight first in Bataya, doesn't have a television partner. It will be filmed so well-led to believe as part of the Fury's Netflix series, which is some people might say that's a great development.

for our sport and some like me say how is that a great development for our sport? We've got to have it on TV. We can't wait six months to see three and a half minutes of a fight that might only last three and a half minutes to be honest with you but we can't wait. What say a few, Barry Jones? I don't care about it.

I mean, you know, yeah, there's always that to it. I mean, just don't get injured. That's all. And that's all you think. Don't get injured, can't lose for God's sake. But I mean, it's a fight that he almost can lose. It wouldn't be a competitive sparring session, in my opinion, anymore.

for Mario Vac, I think it would just be a punchback for Fury. If Fury is any good, we're not sure if he's any good. No, no, no. Same with Anthony Joshua. It's not like...

No. We don't know what any of these big guys who got left. We're talking about fighters. They're prime. They were fantastic. Yep. But they're nowhere near their prime.

So what good can they be? I think Fury is probably closer to his prime than Joshua, I would say. But it's a close to fight now than it ever has been, I think, in my mind. Yep.

Because Fury is more vulnerable than ever. And all three of them look vulnerable, Bail. All three, you know, Fury, AJ and Ousek. Let's tell the truth. Let's have a second. They all look vulnerable. It's because they're all, I mean, Fury's the youngest there, isn't he? But they're all knocking on the dollar 40, that's why.

So they should be, and they've had long careers and then boxing. Hard careers. And outside the ring. Longevity in boxing is not a good thing. People think it's a great thing. It's a feat, but it's not a good thing. But it catches you in. Because you've got your slow down, you take more punches, and more punches, more

damage, more damage, and then more health issues there when you retire. I mean, but these guys are an infargeons. You don't blame them. The Fury Joshua fight, I'm glad this happening. If it never happened, though, I wouldn't cry because we're not getting to see the same guys who they once were.

Yeah, yeah. But still... It's still, it's still... I would make... I'd still make an effort to go and watch it. Okay. I'd say that much. Right, listen, Barry, now we're going to talk about that fight

because one of the big topics in boxing really is that people really want to just hear about fun stories at the moment, because we run on a bit of a sort of misfit summer, so to speak, or on oddity summer. One of the things that's really... I want to do a Misfit show, isn't that? Yeah, well, yeah, that's Misfits Pro,

not the other ones. But there's a big, there's a big topic of conversation, making the news, got me back on Five Live during the World Cup for my only appearance to talk about it. And that's where Fury and AJ will take place. If you remember rightly, there was a big hoo-ho, and Dana White sort of hinted that I'm in charge, it'll be in LA or Vegas,

and then Turkey Alashake called a summit, a peace summit, which Dana White didn't attend. Nick Kahn did attend, but he didn't have a picture taken with Frank Warren, who looked very unhappy, and Eddie Hearn, who looked even unhappier. George Warren was being diplomatic. Turkey was there smiling.

Turkey caused the problems, let's get it right, by sorting out Conner Ben's diversion away from Matrim, signing with Zufa. Turkey, you know, we know funded that. That's not a lot for dispute. So Turkey's a mischievous character. I still never met the man, so I can't comment on what he's like personally.

But the mischievous character called the summit, got together at the summit, and then said after the summit, listen, Fury and AJ has to happen in UK. It has to be a UK fight for the UK fans, but it has to happen at a friendly time for the Americans. That created a problem straight away with Wembley, and it would just like it would create a problem

with other venues in the UK because of the time in, other venues in England because of the time. And then the Millennium Step-T up. It just so happens, I've got on the phone from the Chamber of Commerce in Cardiff. I've got on the phone the Ely constituent who happens to have the same name as you, Barry Jones. Barry, what say you, make your pitch for the Millennium or whatever it's called these days?

The principality, make your pitch for it. The reason why in the UK, that's the best indoor. Yes, it is indoor, by the way. You can close the roof there. You can get the max. You've got 80,000 indoors for that start. So in that weather, in this UK weather, but certainly then it's going to be November time. probably.

Late-ish November, I reckon. So it's going to be cold and it's probably going to be raining. Yes. Get indoors. There's no curfew because it's in the city centre. Yes.

As we've seen before, with Car taggy box late and there's no issues there. And with AJ Boxed there a couple of times. We ended very late. No, but Joe was like... Three in the morning. And so was...

And so was... In the old stadium, which was outdoors, was Lewis. Lewis and Bruno. And Bruno, that was like... That was on a Friday, one there?

Friday night. Yeah, it was the Friday... Saturday morning. Exactly. Yeah, yeah. So, you know, it's being done there, but it's certainly with the indoor thing. It's very important.

It can go ahead. And also, you know, I can, if I go, I can stay in my dad's. Yeah. So, you know, if Netflix... You can do that rocky thing. Shush, I mean, Steve.

So if Netflix, where's the camera, we got a camera? So if Netflix want to use me, you don't have... No hotel. No hotel, no travel. Yeah, no travel. Are you going to get down there.

You've got to charge a few quay. It's gone at the 55 p. It's gone at the 5 p.m. No. And you're still losing? I can. But, um... Second mentor, you only get free of show.

Yeah. But I don't... It's gonna go where... Whoever's paying for it. Yeah. Whether that be Turkey Ella Shake or Netflix. Yeah. So I understand what...

I mean, it should... For UK fans, it should be in the... For boxing fans, because mainly the UK fans, it should be in the UK. But when do people hate the, for the boxing fan, they're not? Because if you're a boxing fan, you're going to watch it anyway, so they got you. Yeah.

They don't care. So for atmosphere, it should be in a stadium in the UK. UK, because that's when you're going to get the most that it's going to be, even because the fight might be awful by the way, but the atmosphere will be great regards. And the build will be incredible, yeah. And if it is 2 o'clock the morning, everyone's going to be ratly drunk anyways, it's going to be even better atmosphere.

But I mean, if I understand with Netflix, saying if it is them, saying we wanted a, like, a time that's appropriate for our slightly better for us. For our, our, our, our fan, well, not family, our subscribers in America, because if 1% of subscribers in America watchy,

that's more than every subscriber in the UK probably, isn't it? Absolutely, yeah. Because of the demographic there. So, I mean, it makes sense for that, for a commercial sense. It's just the boxing fans, it's so sense for us. It's like, why would we want it at 2 o'clock in the morning?

Why would they go to Vegas? But we never get the choice. So let's just take, we'll take it, if it is what it is. I mean, I wanted to go to Vegas, selfishly, because I want to go, I'm in the Vegas for a day. You want to be outside? I want to go to Vegas for a fight.

In the Raiders stadium. I think I get some work, a few guys, you know, I guess some work selling programs. I don't know what I'm like. I'll go and work for anyone. So like, I want to go there for the trip. Yeah. Because the fight to me,

it doesn't have the same appeal as you used to have. But I think they... You still want to see it, though, don't you? Yeah, just to put a full stop in it. But the problem is, though, it doesn't put a full stop in it, really, because whoever wins... What if it had been three years earlier?

Whoever wins, got that little... Same thing, we're having Paki out here. Yeah, but... Yeah. It's not the fight, it would have been. Yeah. He would have beaten him last day. He would have played you at my peak,

and which I think he would live. And Josh, you were gone, in my peak, I would walk right through you and knock you out. and they've all got a little case of that both of those statements they can say and hold their heart but as you've seen before sometimes when you've got two fighters who are not their best it can end up being a better fight

because more mistakes that little bit slower can't do things that they used to do but their brains are and more things that remember I said about Mike Tyson once in the show your brain sending your things your body things you can't do anymore so you're thinking about stuff your body can't do it so you're trying to do the stuff

instinct and heart and guts Yeah, but then you're making mistakes, you're taking shots, and there might be a better fight to watch. But where it goes, it goes. I mean, we all drive ourselves mad to body. We know when that's control, except for the people who pay. Yeah. And at the minute, that includes Frank Warren,

that includes Eddie Hearn. They'll have a safety, but they don't have control, and that's unusual for them, guys, not to have that. It's really interesting because the bad guys here are being painted as the TV broadcasters or Turkey, maybe even. It is not bad guys. No, no, no, no. No, in the sense that they're not saying it's definitely going to take place in Britain.

You know, like, you know, listen, if Eddie heard, if, if the Netflix... You're not a charity match, see it? No, no, no, this is the point. This is the point. I'm coming to the point. Sorry. No one's asking the fighters, would you take a 50 million reduction? Yeah, exactly.

Because then they flip that on its head and ask someone, would you take a 50% reduction in your job? No. To do X or Y? Doesn't work that way. In the real world... There's also an argument, though. they're getting massively overpaid for a fight that's not worth it anymore

so you could argue that for them too Barry let me ask you this if one of them picks up a cut over that weekend the Pataya Jedda access it'll be a fun weekend those two fights they both should walk through Comfortably

if one of them picks up a cut or if one of them works out that the 10 week 12 week camp they've been in they can't start another 10 week 12 week camp you know the bodies have come to a point you can't you can't keep on doing 12 week camps So if it then gets pushed to, I don't know, April or May of next year, okay?

Is there a cutoff point in, you care less now about it than you did in 2020, 2020, 2021, 2020. No different for me, no. Okay. If the fight never happened, I wouldn't lose any sleep over it. In my opinion, this is only my opinion. I mean, I want to see the fight, but I'm not clamouring for it. Were you clamouring for it? At one point, of course it was.

It was like the biggest fight in British boxing history, wasn't it? Yeah, one of the biggest fights in the world. We forget that. We all, because, you know, we've been around longer than most people in our industry. And you've been around longer than me in my industry doing this job. So there was a, no, we romanticised about the times when we think are great. They were great times. But to have two of the best heavies on the planet, we've never had that.

They were both world champions together. We forget that as well. We forget that. But they were clearly the best. While there was there with the argument, maybe he was the best. But, I mean, in Fury, you put that right. But, I mean, there was a point there where you got, no, we won't be here. ever been this way before.

All right. And you might say so-and-so would have beat him in his, it's irrelevant. Whether Lennox would have or Bruno.

It's irrelevant. But you never, but we never know. Well, Lennox was, I think he goes about everything. But either way, to have that,

the opportunity, and then them should to fight each other then. And I don't know who's the blame. Maybe everyone, maybe no one. Maybe no one.

Barry, listen, if you do, I spent about three days last week just on this, two hours, three hours a day, compiling, getting together,

all my notes, all my notes, All my notes from about 2018, 2019, trying to find the first time they were put together in an interview, the first time someone mentioned the other one. Extensive, exhaustive notes. I'm not saying I'm the number one expert, but I'd challenge anybody.

So I've got this entire list. It's in this book here that I'm tapping now with my hand. That's the book I'm tapping. In there are the exact times. Sometimes it's times. So when Shelley Finkel intervenes at Mad Day, when Suddle, Suddenly the fight was cancelled.

Do you remember when the fight was cancelled? August 14th and we lost loads of money on flights. I've got the time that Shelley Finco intervened. The time because he called me, left me a message. Said, Steve, why didn't people call me? No one called me? Left me a message. So I've got this exact list of when it fell through,

when it fell through, when it fell through, when it fell through, when it fell through. I'm not sure we can do another two years of it. I think what you find in boxing, we find with this situation, it can. You will. and it would go on to their 60 and then they'll come back and fight or they won't.

I mean, I think, I'm at a point now where if you see it's great, we don't see it doesn't matter. There's more important fights to go on in the world. Again, this fight is a good fight. It's like while the boxing music, it doesn't affect anyone's careers.

No rankings. Doesn't take any money out of anyone's pocket. And let them do their thing and if people want to watch it, they'll pay. If they don't want to watch it, because, I mean, people say that, play your pay-re-view.

If you don't watch it, don't want to watch it, I can't afford it, that's the problem with you. I can't afford it. but I do want to watch it. And I'm paying my subscription. No, I work for a channel that does both these things,

but it used to be Sky back in the day. And you go, this is not fair in a boxing fan. But this fight is not a fight that's going to affect, like if you're a mad boxing fan and an interest in progression of a fight, who's the world champion,

who's number one, this is not that. This is a fight there. This is almost like a, like a, again, like a cannibal type thing. Yeah, just to see if sign each other's career is off. For them to retire,

I've box each other, would be great. But you know, what's going to happen, they'd be signing a two-fight deal, guaranteed. I mean, a two-fight, oh, you know. But again, good luck. That doesn't affect them as clear. That's fine.

But the thing is, though, again, they won't sign it off, will there? Because then they won't, no, they'll have the rematch. And then people will keep paying. And then you keep paying, and they'll keep fighting. And you can't blame them, can you? You can't blame them? I don't know. I go over the box all the time.

There's no things wrong with it, but who do you blame? Yeah. Well, that's the point I was trying to get at then, is that when you read through the extensive notes and you look at it, every single person is innocent and every single person is guilty. Some of the stuff that people said and the stuff that people then retracted, then they said again, and the deals that were done and the deals that were undone, the claims that were made and the counterclaims that were made, it's impossible for anybody. If there was a wall there of people, there was a wall there of people who had been mentioned in this fight from Turkey out

to shake all the way over there to, I don't know, Gypsy Johnny Fury. There was 30 people against that wall. No, no bottle, single another wall. Yeah, literally, every single one of them is both at full and at the same time can be praised for what they tried to do. So you mentioned something quite interesting there, Barry. You mentioned the fact that it was probably going to be a two-fight deal. And that's understandable.

That's business. Now, this is going to ruin in theory. Let's assume AJ wins, okay? Let's assume AJ wins. Then he has to give Fury a rematch. Because what AJ's been talking about and what Ussick's been talking about on behalf of AJ is AJ becoming a three-time World Heavyweight Champion and finally becoming the undisputed heavyweight champion.

Now, that at the moment with four different belts, three of them held by people, one of them vacant, with the best willing to world, Barry, that's going to take two and a, it's going to take a lifetime to get them all together. Nice idea, but surely the Fury Fight throws a potential spanner in the works of AJ becoming a three-weight world heavyweight champion

and certainly have become. becoming the undisputed of the matcham, which was always been AJ's goal since he won his first title against Charles Martin, the Burger King King. It has, but I would argue he's probably further away

from that now than he was when he turned professional. Oh, time-wise he is, definitely. No, just no, in every sense. In every, in every sense, yeah. Because there's a younger, fresher generation of fighters there.

One is a champion who's already beat him quite conclusively in Daniel Dubois. I mean, how would you put him up against, or would you fancy him against Cabayel. I mean, you fancy against Gassayev. Oh, yeah, of course, yeah.

You would have at the minute, but would you fancy him against Atama? Would you fancy against Philip Hergovich? I mean... No, no, no. I would fancy against anything but at the moment. I don't know what's there, and I'd say that, this version of Joshua, you know, when you say this about would you fancy begin this guy, people think...

People think, yes, not the peak Joshua because then peak Joshua... It's a different man. Different man. Bez, beat Subwa, in my opinion. Yeah, of course he does. But the one we saw, didn't. Actually, I thought he was going to beat Yubah. The wow was brilliant at that night But I mean

This version of Josh What we've seen recently I mean there might be more in him There might be more in the locker You know we I mean No Top-class athletes can do extraordinary things

And they can roll back the year sometimes Same with Tyson Fury by the way He's another one who's I think he didn't look very good Against Mac Moodov And he looked But I think that may be slightly intentional He was trying to get around

You saw him trying to think It was like he was moving and thinking But he didn't look awful against Against it's um, Uzik in the second fight. He didn't look awful. No, no.

Ouzik was better. Yeah. I mean, so, you know, and Uzik's Uzik, by the way. So, you know, like, he's only,

like, two fights away from, like, from being one of the, like, the second best in the world. So, you know, but those,

those two fights are being, what, 18 months or something, two years. Yeah. So, you know, it's been, maybe longer. I don't know, I,

so many fights now, it could be, it could have been six months ago. But, I mean, it's that, You know, it's that, they're not far away and they're not far away, but they're also a million miles away

from where they once were. And I just think the longer time goes on, the harder it is to bring back that magic. That hat, inactivity. You've got to strike, you've got a strike. And it may be too late for a lot of those fights. And the motivation, you're going through the motions. You can't do it the same.

Can you? Maybe you can't, because they've been great things already. The whole thing is, all right? Whether they fight or not, them two are not fighting, we complain about it, but they both have great careers. Yeah, absolutely, like we both won the now. We sit back and we're going to sit back and go,

listen, I don't want to say giving the flowers, rubbish where people say, but sometimes you've got to sit back and go, we always criticise, no, remember, critic, because that's our job to critique what they do and where they go in. But you look back and you go, if their careers ended the day

and they never box each other. Fabulous careers. Unbelievable, isn't it? Not only if they made between them a billion quid, they've given us 10 or 15 massive stadium fights, they've given us combined about 30. Given us. No, no, no, no, I mean, you and I.

No, the fans and the fans and everything. They're given the fans and they've given you and I unbelievable night. I take it all right. Tach dozens and probably 35 nights between them. I pick two moments for me, right? Go on, son, you do two and I'll do one. Even though the first fight against Wilder going to L.A.,

that whole trip was amazing for me. It was the Staples segment. And the last round. I'm a Lakers fan. I'm going to the Staples 7 was mega. I didn't know like baseball. Carrying on. The way he performed

when I thought he was going to get I thought he had no chance, no way, you shouldn't have been in the ring. That's why Wilder chose him. He shouldn't have been in the ring. And the way he performed, Fury, was amazing. He walked so well. And obviously the story is the last one.

But the performance before that, it was fantastic. Yeah, yeah. And when Joshua, I know he was Angano. Yeah, it doesn't matter. The way Angano collapsed when he hit him was, I mean, one of the, most craziest things I've ever seen in my life.

And it was so close up. You know what's really... And it was a shot that I taught him. Yeah, no, that's... So what's really interesting is that my two post-fight interviews, one with Fury in the dressing room when he was in his multi-coloured kecks, standing there in front of me, talking about getting up for the knockdown,

which was very memorable for me. And then, of course, what was most memorable was watching you and AJ in the dressing room. AJ still in his trunks, but not in his kecks. And you and him measuring out the ground, because I accused AJ of measuring the ground, and he said yes. And he was...

because he was counting. When he was getting an eight-counting in Gardo, I saw AJ and he was doing it, he was mouthing it. One, two, three. And he walked the four steps and threw the right hand. And what you knew and him, insincro, like honestly, like a couple of long-lost brothers on some terrible dance show from the 80s

doing some ridiculous dance move, the two of you, one, two, three, and both framed the right hands at the same time. That was a joy! I was saying, to unify the Walthaway division, Donald Curry knocked on Milton McCrory, I'm telling you know this. I said, but when he dropped it, When he, when McCrory got up, the finish and right hand,

there was no flashy, no faint, no, no, Donald Corrie just walked over and went, one, two, three, crack. And I said, yours went, that's what I did. I said, yours was just like that. And he was saying, he was, write that Don, right, you want to watch the fight. Be fair, you want to watch it. But then I put that clip out, and I said, this was, and I've tried to make people, tell people this was, yeah, just before the fight.

You're trying to say it was before the fight, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know what, tell, but they wouldn't even make you the top 50 lies in our business. Listen, Barry, it's been an absolute pleasure and a delight. We haven't done a pod like this for a long time where we've gone through loads of bits and pieces and news and I always say to people when we do these pods where we mention lots of fights,

do you ever a name check on how many fighters we mentioned? We might have mentioned 40 fighters today. Active fighters, fighters that we're completely dismissing, fighters that we've idolised. That is what we do when we do our pod. Barry, it's been an absolute pleasure. I've been Steve Bunce and this has been Five Live Boxing. Five Life Sports.

Favorite World Cup moment. I'd have to say commentating on my first World Cup final in Moscow in 2018. It was a realisation of achieving a childhood dream. And the two thousandth way. Who is your favourite player in World Cup history? It would be Zico of Brazil back in 1982. He was skillfully, had an eye for the spectacular goal and it was also part of that flamboyant Brazilian side that has to be one of the greatest teams never to win a World Cup. The People World Cup 2026. Coming soon. Listen on BBC Sounds.

He's widely recognised as one of the greatest footballers in history. He's one of the prestigious Ballandor Award five times. He's the all-time leading goal scorer in professional football. And according to the Bloomberg Billionaires Index, he's the first active footballer in history to achieve billionaire status. Guess who we're talking about yet? That's right. Good Bad Billionaire is exploring the life and fortune of football icon Cristiano Ronaldo. That's Good Bad Billionaire from the BBC World Service.

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