5 Live Boxing with Steve Bunce - The man who shot Muhammad Ali

Episode Date: June 22, 2020

Legendary photographer Neil Leifer, who captured some of the most iconic images of Muhammad Ali in a career spanning half a century, joins Mike and Steve to tell the story behind some of his most famous work. Also, reaction to the confirmation of the date of boxing's return in the UK.

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Go to pockethose.com slash podcast. That's pockethose.com slash podcast for your two free gifts with purchase. Pockethose.com slash POD C-A-S-T. BBC Sounds, music, radio, podcasts. Five Live Boxing. Five Live Boxing with Costello-A-U-A-Bans, and thanks for sticking with us. This is our 14th show in lockdown, and that's not counting the greatest fight series. And finally, Steve, we have a date as to when professional boxing

is to return to the UK. Yeah, we've got one date solid set in stone, so they say. That's the 10th of July, it's a Friday. But we've also got about another six or seven shows with eight or nine fights. Yeah, we're back. We're near, no, Mike, Mike, wait for it. We're nearly back. We're nearly out of lockdown. Do you remember how at the start of this 14 weeks ago, it was all going to happen in two weeks? Do you remember when it happened in nine weeks? Well, now it's all going to happen in two weeks. It'll probably happen in nine weeks. We're back one date, one fight so far, but another five or six shows, they'll find dates, they've got fights. We're back. Hey, in that other world, Steve, that parallel universe, the old normal we today would have been assessing Anthony Joshua's

performance against Kubrat Pulev. And according to Bob Aram, we'd have been assessing Anthony Joshua's defeat against the Bulgarian. We would have actually recorded Bob Aram somewhere in the boughs of that brand new Tottenham Stadium in North London. We would have gone. got hold of Bob at one o'clock in the morning. He would have been as ecstatic as Bob had ever been, because he would have said, I told you guys, my man Kubrat was going to do it. And then we would have been trying to get into Joshua's changing room.

We'd have been stuck outside his dressing room until 3 o'clock in the morning with no sanctuary across the road like we had last year, no TikTok to go to like we had after we waited for him after the Ruiz defeat. So it'd have been there. We'd have had Bob Aram on tape. We'd have had Kubrat Poolev on tape with his brilliant English that he only gets in victory. and we would have finally got to Anthony Joshua. That's in the other universe, Mike.

That's in the other universe. Don't spoil it. Hey, as it is, a third of the year has passed with no action to enjoy. So we'll talk briefly about the resumption in a moment. But today's show is based mostly around a compelling interview with one of the great sports photographers of all time. A man responsible for some of the most iconic images that have made up the past six decades of boxing history.

You'll remember we held over the interview last week because of the developments around Anthony Joshua and Tyson Fury. So today we'll hear at length from Neil Leifah from his home in New York, reflecting on a life at ringside capturing the defining moments in the life and career of Muhammad Ali and many more, with tales of Frank Sinatra thrown in. We'll get to Neil and his memories very shortly. But this first show, Steve, post-lockdown, is to be promoted by Frank Warren and Queensbury promotions at the BT. sport headquarters in East London. It's on Friday, July the 10th and top of the bill is Brad Foster defending his British and Commonwealth Super Bantamweight titles against James Beach.

It's a proper British title fight. It's a couple of unbeaten boxes. In fact, they're fairly local. This fight would have been, how many times will we say this? This fight would have been brilliant in front of a crowd and in somewhere local. This fight in Birmingham, this fight in Wolverhampton, This fight in Canuck in a 4,000-seat arena would be absolutely, you know, that old-fashioned word barnstormer. It would be a barnstormer. I like Brad Foster, Mike. He's only a kid, but what I really like about him

is that he managed to have four British title fights in an 11-month period. You can go and look in your record books. The die-hards on this, can pulls this pod now, and go and look. That is a rarity. The last professional card, Steve, in the UK, was on Saturday the 14th of March and across the UK on that weekend there were almost 50 contests. So by the time we get to July the 10th it will have been an absence of 118 days.

That's a day short of 17 weeks and as I said earlier, almost a third of a year. So a massive dent in the business. And I've received from the Board of Control, Steve, some stipulations that they're putting in place to try to ensure in as much as they can the safety of everybody involved in the show. And these are some of the main points that are picked out. The boxers, referees and trainers and seconds will be required to undertake their COVID-19 testing at some stage 24 to 48 hours before the tournament. Once the testing has been done, they'll be required to self-isolate in a hotel and await

the test result. They should remain there alone until they receive notification of their test result. For referees, following each contest, the referee must go to the doffing area and remove their personal protective equipment. They must then shower and change into a fresh uniform. New PPE must then be donned before the next contest. And as far as personal protective equipment is involved, Steve, for the commentary teams, they are within the Amber Zone, which is six to eight metres from the ring. The ring itself and the apron area for the judges is the red zone. The Amber Zone will house the commentary team, and they must wear fluid-resistant surgical face masks with eye-protects.

either eye shield, goggles or a visor and disposable gloves. So it's going to be a very different feel at ringside, Steve. It's going to be a very different look at ringside, Mike, to be perfectly honest with yet. We've seen this with the shows that we've had from America, the different Bob Aaron shows. We've looked at them. We've seen how far people away. We've looked at the protective clothing. I've had an email from the people at BT, alerting me to the three proposed shows that Frank Warren has put forward, only one of which has a solid date. The other two have loose dates, but only one of which as a solid date, and that's this

first show, the July 10th, Brad Foster James Beach. And I'll be honest with you, no one really knows. I mean, if I could tell you for certain, I was going down to a hotel for three days in Stratford, then I'm going to have to make my way over by foot or in a car on my own to the venue and have to keep two meters away

from Barry Jones or John Rawling or Richie Woodall, then I would tell you that, but I haven't. And I'll be absolutely honestly, they don't know. The people organising this don't know yet, because The border control are continually monitoring the situation to see if there are any changes. For instance, we might switch from two metres to the one meter rule, which changes this slightly. Does it mean that the amber zone moves that little bit closer to the ring?

Who knows? Perhaps we have to do away with some of the excessive clothing. Does the referee still have to wear a full face mask? That was one of the rules from, that was one of the suggestions and guidelines that were leaked about four or five weeks ago. One of the disconcerting things about the Premier League when it emerged last week, one of the really, and certain things for me was that every now and again when the camera pulled away and you saw the empty stand. I felt I felt that was the soul destroying. I'm going to throw it forward because it was probably going to be one of your questions. I liked the noise that was pumped in.

I liked the noise that was pumped in. I liked the crowd effects and the crowd noise. But every now and again, I couldn't disagree more. Couldn't disagree more. You just like to. I can't stand. It was like watching Connor, my son playing FIFA. So, so, so, yeah. It's fake. I want to watch. I want to watch. I want to watch. what's actually happening. I don't need encouragement to enjoy it. I'll make my own mind up. But Mike, what happens when there was no, when you couldn't see the seats? You couldn't see the empty seats. Did that sound bother you then? No, it didn't. It only bothered me. The sound only bothered me, the pumped in noise, only bothered me once I saw the empty seats. Once I saw them,

I hated it. But every now and again, I'd lose myself for several minutes when they were doing close up and you couldn't see the empty stadium. Then the noise, to be able. honestly, it didn't bother me. So let's get back to the boxing. So here's the thing. Obviously, if it's in a BT studio, there are no seats anyway. If it's in Eddie's garden, there are no seats anyway, no seats to cover up, no seats to drape, no seats to change the lighting on. So I'd like to see, I'd like to see the curtains pulled even closer. You know, so I'd like to see the curtains behind us at eight metres. Why not? Who wants to look? We talked about it last week. Who wants to look into an echo piece of blackness? Let's not have

that. But I'm surprised that you disliked the pumped in noise when the action was close, because I've got to be honest with you, squinting, it worked for me. I just want to see sport as it is, Steve. And I think when we're talking about boxing, even if you look at these shows in the United States, which, you know, we haven't exactly been captivated by, I think part of the attraction, if we're going to have to suffer, and I use that word advisedly, behind closed doors action, is that you can actually hear the corner men shouting. You can. can hear the punch is landing. You can hear some of the, you know, the reactions of the boxes

when they hit. So I think that to me, you know, that adds something that might be an attraction to those who are coming to the sport for the first time. But I do think, Steve, that quality is key here. And already, you know, before we've seen any action in this country, what's been happening in the States and the impending action here has generated some traffic online for us. And in terms of emails, we've had this from Scott Claven, who is a regular listener. And as responded to us in the past. Hello from your fan in the Bronx in New York, says, Scott, always enjoy your podcast,

especially the in-depth reporting about Daniel Kinahan's involvement in a possible Fury Joshua fight, but I'm confused as to why you casually tossed off the recent ESPN returned to boxing as unsatisfying. I thought the fact that Bob Aram, top rank and ESPN went to such lengths to bring regular boxing back in a safer way

as possible was really admirable. So, you know, he's safe. saying that what he saw, you know, was boxing back and that that's all he wanted. Whereas Andy O'Sullivan saying, I absolutely love your podcast, look forward to it every week. However, I'm astounded by your advocation and desperate need for fights to return behind closed doors. I understand you both have to be diplomatic regarding your media commitments, but be honest and say it's farcical to be trying to stage fights in someone's back garden. Boxers out of work are no different to me being out of work. So there you have the differing view, Steve.

Not only different views, but I agree and disagree with Andy. I agree with him and part of what he said, and I disagree with him. We've had shows before in TV shows. Granada have hosted British title fights when they used to have their fight series back in the 80s. That's happened. Sure, there were five or six or two or three hundred people there, and that's what we'll get. Eddie in his garden will be able to make it look and sound well. Now, Mike, I think you misunderstood.

I'm not advocating pumping in crowd noise to boxing events. I'm not advocating that. What I'm advocating is that the venue itself is so encased with curtains, the type of curtains that you abused me for having last week, heavy, rich drapes, Mike, that somehow hold the sound. I love hearing the corner men. I love hearing the various people, the guys during the fights talking. I've got no problem with that at all.

I'm told it was really scary at Brighton at the weekend if you were there, and you could hear Leno, the goalkeeper, howling and screaming in pain. So I'm not advocating I'm not advocating piping in music, piping in sound, piping in crowd to a fight because we know they're not there. What I'm advocating is that they do something

to try and make it sound like the sound stays there, that we get a good sound coming from the 60 or 70 people that are there. So I disagree with Andy in the sense that it's just people get in a living and why should they? No, no, that's absolutely fine. I've got no problem with that whatsoever. And getting back to the first guy, our fan from the Bronx, sure it was a return, but I wouldn't have applauded that Shakir, Stevenson fight,

if it was third or fourth on the bill of a bill I was desperate to watch, Mike. I'm getting, the older I get, the less tolerant I am of really good fighters having walkovers. You know, when a kids had five fights, sure. But no disrespects. And I said it last week, and I'll take anybody up, they want to do it with me on Twitter. The next time there's a Bob Aram show, I'll show you the five winners, and I bet you I can get four of the five, right, completely. Because that's what you can do on most cards in Great Britain.

Most shows that take place in Great Britain, I can give you an accumulator of 11 wins. There's only one fight that I might not know the result of. It's as simple as that. And I mean that, that's just our business. And I wonder if that is going to change what we'll see in the near future, Steve. because what Scott's saying there, I think, are two separate arguments. Yes, you can salute Bob Aram and Top Rank and ESPN for making this effort to get boxing back. And he points out that there's an article in the New York Times that says across this spell of shows that Bob Aram has got,

it's going to cost top rank half a million dollars to carry out all of these testing procedures and to impose all of the restrictions that are necessary to get these shows on the road. but just because they're there, it doesn't mean that you have to like the action on offer. And I was surprised at the weekends, Steve, that the audience figures for the match that was on BBC 1, you know, prime time on a Saturday evening, I think the highest figure was 3.9 million,

an average of 3.6 million viewers. I know it wasn't the first game back, but it was very soon in the resumption of the Premier League calendar. And I just thought that the crowd would be bigger than that. And I think that's a warning to everyone in boxing that maybe there isn't this coiled spring effect waiting to happen, that everybody's been so desperate for action that they're going to watch anything. But now, Steve, too, that interview that we were planning to run last week with Neil Leifah, the photographer who's been ringside for big fights all the way back to 1959 and who's become best known for his work around Muhammad Ali.

And two photographs in particular have underpinned his lofty. reputation, the first of them in the rematch between Muhammad Ali and Sunny Liston in Lewiston in May in May, 1965, showing Ali standing over a stricken Liston whose arms and legs are outstretched. He's flat on the canvas in the first round, having been decked by what's become known as the phantom punch. And the second photograph, Steve,

is from a year later against Cleveland Williams. Ali hands raised walking one way. Cleveland William hands raised, but flat on the canvas. And it just captures a ringside. It captures a time. It captures a moment. And just like the Liston and Ali pitch. And I know we talk about this in the interview with Neil,

going back and looking at them just a couple of hours ago. I had to have a close look. You couldn't have posed those, Mike. You couldn't have set up in a studio and pulled in 500 extras. They've tried in Rocky films. They've tried in Ali and Ruben Hurricane Carter films. They can't do what the man. we're going to hear manage to do in that split second. And by the way, keep in the ear out

for his definition of photographer's luck, because it is the final word. I love this interview. I really do. And if all of this and the descriptions of these photographs are new to you, then just search online for Ali Liston Leifah or Ali Cleveland Williams Leifah, and you'll see the genius that we're talking about. Let's hear from him because Neil Leifah is still capturing the big fight drama, most recently at the Antony Joshua and Tyson Fury, world title fights in Saudi Arabia and in Las Vegas. And now at the age of 77, he's been reflecting with us on how those Ali days set him up for life. Both pictures were not very, nobody spoke about them when they were taken. I mean,

they won no awards. There's a very prestigious contest of the, called Pictures of the Year. that neither picture won first, second, third, or any of the three honorable mentions. And yet, at the end of the 20th century, Sports Illustrated, put the Ali Liston picture on the cover of the magazine as the greatest sports photo of the century. And when it didn't even make the cover in 1965,

they ran Ali Liston on the cover, but it was another picture, not mine. And the London Observer at the end of the century did a cover story on their Sunday magazine, which was simply called the 50 greatest sports photos of all time. And I was thrilled because they chose both of my pictures number one and number two. And much to my pleasure, they chose Ali Williams number one and Ali Liston number two. And it's always amused me.

Why? Why did the Ali Liston pictures suddenly become so important? Because in my opinion anyway, you know, as Muhammad Ali aged and certainly, as he began getting beaten up a little bit in fights. I mean, all you have to do is remember what his face looked like after the first Fraser fight and after the fight in Manila. I mean, he really took a beating in both fights, even though he clearly won the fight in Manila. He did lose the fight, got knocked down, and lost the fight against Joe Fraser.

But the picture of him standing over Sonny Liston, that is the way people want to remember Muhammad Ali. He was young. He was handsome. He was an incredible physical specimen, and just the most athletic-looking guy you've ever seen, and people want to remember him that way. And I have always thought that's why the picture took on the fame that it's taken on. I'm very proud of the picture.

Don't misunderstand me. But at the time, I'm sure I'd have passed back by a couple of my peers at the time that said, nice, nice photo, Neil, but nobody really paid much attention to it. Believe me, and it's only after the years went by that it, it's, became the icon that it's become. Neil, we saw you scurrying around in Saudi Arabia. It was a pleasure to just to be ringside with you. Now, I want to take you back to that night in Maine in 1965.

And what I find so astounding about that picture of Ali standing over Liston is quite simple. I read somewhere that it structured so perfectly as to seem staged. Well, I had a good look at it again today on a really good laptop. And everything is crystal clear. The white ring corners are crystal clear. Ali's satied shorts, those old style satin shorts, are still got a crease down the middle.

Liston's boots are beautifully clean. His shorts are beautifully clean. Neither of them are sweating too much. They've just got a little bit of sweat. And you can see Ali's lips moving. It is the most perfect composition. It is deep. It reminded me a little bit of that film.

I think it's called Capricorn 1, where OJ Simpson and the rest of those guys don't go to the moon, but I make out they went to the moon. And I'm just wondering if you look at it sometimes and think, how did I get that picture? Because it looks like you spent six hours setting it up. No, well, well, first of all, if I didn't spend six hours setting up,

I spent four days setting up. Sports Illustrated, Sports Illustrated in those days, in Life magazine spent a lot of money to cover these fights. Because color film in particular was so grainy and, you know, you really never got that. kind of quality. And black and white, the great black and white fight pictures of Joe Lewis and Rocky Marciano and Sugarie Robinson, they shot with strobe lights, electronic flashes. And we spent a lot of money and we literally sent a ride a truck up to Lewiston. Same thing to Houston, Texas for the

great expense. So that when you lit the ring with the strobe lights we did, you basically, you were shooting the same kind of quality, which is what you're complementing. The quality of the photographs from those fights are exactly the same as Vogue or Harper's Bazaar or GQ or Esquire would have had for a fashion shoot. You were not shooting with high-speed film. You were shooting with normal film shot at a normal speed. IASA, they used to call it. And the quality was exactly the same as a fashion shoot or a portrait in the studio would be. So you're exactly right in the way you described the sharpness of it. The irony is we haven't had that kind of sharpness again until the digital era.

I mean, the pictures, wait till you see my book and you see the pictures from Saudi Arabia, and you see the pictures from Las Vegas of Tyson Fury and Wilder. I mean, the quality there is now as good as that quality was back at 65. But the years in between, look at the pictures of Sugar Ray Leonard's years and even Mike Tyson's years when, in fact, television didn't really want strobe lighting in the arena. So you were shooting with film in film and Sugar Ray Lenned and, you know, and the quality is very good.

I mean, my book is going to look. You'll see that when you see the pictures. But they do not compare to what it looked like in 65 and 66 and 67. And they don't compare to what it looks like now. So you're as very astute observation. You've made it. And that's the reason. The quality is there.

But if you look at some of the pictures, look at the great, great, great. High Peskins photograph of Sugar Ray Robinson and Carmen Vasilio, the famous picture with the eye puffed up. The quality is exactly the same as my shot of Liston Ali, and that was taken in the early 50s or mid-50s. Rocky Masciano, the picture I told you about, that my competitor, Herb Schaftman, took, of Walcott Mascano.

They were taken with strobe lights, and those strobe lights used to, I don't want to sound very technical, but the duration of flash, you were essentially shooting at a 5,000, sometimes as much as the 10,000 of a second. So the action freezing ability, which is why you saw every beat of sweat when the fighter got hit. And yeah, but we'd set up, we probably got to Lewis in Maine. I forgot what night at the week the fight was.

I assume it was a Saturday night in those days. We would have got there on Wednesday and started setting up our strobe lights and did some tests. And I lit. Now, did it happen perfectly? Yes, and then your description of the picture is correct. The thing about that kind of thing is what separates the really top photographers from the good photographers, well, what separates in sports in particular. And one always sounds modest when you use the word luck.

You have to be in the lucky seat. As I say, look between Ali's legs, and that is my competitor. Pretty damn good boxing photographer. But he's getting a picture of Ali's butt. you know a boot as you say and you know there's no you know what what separates the really top photographer from from the regular ordinary run-of-the-mill guy is that when you get when you're in the lucky seat you're not supposed to miss and i didn't miss that night that's really what's special about the picture to me when it happens where you want it to happen i mean your description by the way is

perfect. If I had placed it, I would make, if I, you know, I worked with Stallone on the Rocky movies. So I know, I'm sorry, I know what it's like to choreograph a knockout or knockdown. If I had the opportunity to tell Muhammad, way to knock him down, what to do to make sure the referee wasn't

in my way, wasn't happened, didn't happen to be between me and the fighters. That's what I would have, I would have set it up just the way it looks. But my job was not to miss when it happened, then it happened very quickly. And it's one shot. It's not a sequence. You know, because the strobe lights, you could only shoot one shot. Today you're shooting 10, as many as 20 frames a second.

So you had a much better chance of getting the puncher, you know, or the knockout. But back then, certainly with strobe lights, it was one shot, and then you couldn't shoot for another three seconds or so. While the lights, the power surge had to come back into so you could use the lights again. That was then. and as great as that picture is, I think I might be with Neil on this one, Mike, that my favourite picture is the one in Houston

inside the acetone. If for the main reason that it shows our profession, all of those journalists, there are tightwriters on four sides of the ring, the first row on four sides of the ring, they're tightwriters, Neil. How funny, how, what a difference you and I are. And I look at the cameras.

There are different kinds of cameras that you wouldn't see today. The guy just, I am in the blue shirt at 9 o'clock on the canvas using medium format cameras, which nobody would use today, ringside. And there's a guy with what looks like a big box. That was a photographer from Life magazine shooting. It's called a 70mm hulchick camera, which is a very fast-sequenced camera.

I look at the photographers, you look at the writers. Easy to understand. And just to clarify, Neil, that was a photograph that was taken from overhead. So again, just take us through the process of how you set that one up. Well, again, that picture, that was in Houston, Texas, and I was there easily four days before the fight. And the lighting rig in the Houston Astrodome had to be 80 feet over the ring. So it offered the opportunity, lens-wise, to get the feeling that way. You could see the whole ring and the rows around it.

And the lighting rig was like an elevator. They could bring it from 208 feet, which was the top of the Houston Astrodome, right down to floor level, so they could adjust. And you had an opportunity to fasten the camera on. And in fact, I probably put the camera up two days before the fight. I was able to shoot a test roll. They went back up to the height. I tested because it was also connected to strobe lights, which is why the quality is the way it is.

It's the same as the Ali List and quality. It's a slow film, as I say, exactly the kind of film you would have used as a fashion shoot for Vogue magazine. Or Hop is bizarre. Anyway, I put the camera up there. they bring the elevated, and by the way, they had to do it for their own lights and their own, you know, sound equipment and things that went up. It was called the gondola, the lighting rig they had. But that was pretty easy, except it took four days to set up, you know, and we did a test.

I actually had a color test roll of film processed so that by the time it came to fight night, I knew I had the right exposure. I knew exactly what the frame was going to look like. All I needed was for the fighters to cooperate and fall in the right place. And that happened. And the reason that's my favorite picture, Ali Liston is luck. I mean, yes, I executed it. As I said, you don't miss, but I was very lucky, extremely lucky. And anybody that thinks I'm being modest when I say that take a look at the photographer

between Ali's legs and you'll know how lucky that was. This picture came from my head. This was something I thought up. most photographers that had put cameras over the ring and they were putting remote cameras over boxing rings back when Joe Lewis was fighting but never directly in the middle of the ring looking straight down

when you figured to get nothing but people's heads and you had to get lucky the knockdown had to happen with a guy on his back that no one's happened that way but that picture really was something I thought of I did it first nobody ever did that did it that way before and one of my proudest moments came at the next fight I think it was Ernie Terrell was the fight after that

and used in Astrodome. When people, when other photographers saw this picture, at the next fight, there were three photographers trying to get the very center spot to attach that camera to the lighting rig. And I was very proud of that, you know, but that's my very favorite picture. It's the only picture that hangs in my,

it's hanging in my living room around, looking at it right now as we talk, because it's my favorite. It's my only, I collect other people's photographs, which I have all around my apartment, the Great Life photographers, from when I was a kid, my heroes growing up. But that picture is the one photograph that's always been on my wall.

For those listening who haven't seen the photograph, Neil, as we look at it, we're looking down at Cleveland Williams flat on his back. And to all intents and purposes, he looks like he's being knocked out. But I didn't discover for years that that wasn't actually the end of the fight, was it? The fight ends in the third round and your photographs in the second round. Exactly. I can't remember whether Ali knocked him down three times or maybe four times,

but he got up for that one. Yes. That's absolutely so. I just thought, you know, to go back to the London Observer, I can't tell you how pleased I was that they chose that picture. Because for photography, photography, not sports fan, that's the picture. I mean, I like to tell, I took pictures for 60 years of my life. I've been a photographer at one point one time or another. That is, to me, the best picture I ever took.

Moving on in terms of dates, Neil, to the fight of the century, Madison Square Garden, 1971. You know, by now you are established as one of the great boxing photographers, and Frank Sinatra was working as a photographer at ringside. So tell us that story, how that came about. That night, Madison Square Garden had so many requests for ringside on the apron photo positions that they couldn't accommodate everybody, international requests from Europe, from Asia, from all over the country and here.

So what they did was they set up a photo pool, and Sports Illustrated ran the pool. And Tony Triolo, who was a competitor of mine, great photographer, and myself, we were the pool photographers, which meant we were shooting in color. There was a color pool. The New York newspapers were given ringside seats, so there are other photographers ringside, and the wire services associated press. And then I think it was United Press International was the other, there were two agencies. basically the only real color shots were being taken by myself and Tony Triolo as pool photographers which were to be shared with the world. Anybody that wanted our pictures could get them and get them very quickly that night. Not like today we get it. You can get it minutes later. It was hours.

The film had to be processed. They had to select the pictures. And then they were made available to any any legitimate outfit in the world. However, Life magazine, which was then, still in those days Life magazine was still putting out I believe it was 8 million copies a week they had hired Norman Mailer to do the text piece the writing of the fight and they'd made a secret deal

which nobody knew about with Frank Sinatra who was able to get on the apron ringside because he was very close friends with Bert Lancaster who was doing the close circuit television broadcast he was the analyst or whatever special commentator and Bert Reynolds squeezed, Bert, Bert Lancaster squeezed Sinatra in. I knew what was happening only because about an hour before the fight,

one of the top editors at Life magazine came over and whispered to me, we need a picture of Sinatra. He's going to be any point that it was 30 feet from me. He was just down to my right on the apron. And behind me about two rows was Norman Mela, and they wanted a picture of both of them because they were going to use them on the editors page, you know, to just talk about how the how the fight was covered well i was you know i didn't really think

much about sinatra but at the end of the day sinatra shoots his pictures they go to life magazine and so to our pictures and i was dreaming of getting the life magazine cover i mean that was a cover i wanted the cover of the magazine little that i know that i like to say the fix was in because they really weren't looking to pick fairly they had already sent the to The New York Times had a full page ad that Monday morning, which said the fight. And then underneath it, it said the writer, Norman Mailer, and underneath that it said the photographer, Frank Sinatra. They were going to play this, obviously, it's a great PR ploy to have Sinatra as your photographer and Norman Mailer as your writer. So sure enough, they picked the Frank Sinatra picture for the cover of the magazine, which pissed me off for years.

Well, a number of years later, I had made a film in London with a producer named Elliot Kasna. It was an American, and Elliot Kasna was a very, very successful, big Hollywood producer. Lived in London for many, many years. But I did my film in London at Pinewood Studios for him. But Elliot was making a movie with Sinatra. And he invited me to meet Sinatra. So I went and I brought Sinatra a copy of a book of mine, which I signed him. And I ended up having a drink with Frank in his trailer, just to two of us.

And basically, we talked sports for about, I don't know, 45 minutes until they needed him back on the set. We had a drink and might have spent an hour with him. I don't remember. It was a very, very, I was thrilled, obviously. You know, I never expected I'd be able to spend an hour with Frank Sinatra. Just bullshit, really. Anyway, I told Sinatra how pissed off I was that he had gotten the Life magazine. cover I wanted. And he thought that was very funny. And he didn't know he was very, very funny about his

response to that. I said, you know, damn it, that cover was my cover. And they end up using your picture. About a month later, I got a note from Sinatra thanking me for the book and telling me how much he enjoyed, looking at it, reading it. And at the bottom of the note, his last sentence said, and one thing, I promise you, I will never compete with you again for photographs. You know, and a sporting event as a photographer, I will never compete with you again, which I treasured the note. It was a very funny, funny, funny thing, a nice thing for him to do. So, as now you've told that story, I'm really pleased you've told that story, Neil, and I'll tell you for why, because there's always been a vicious rumor that Frank Sinatra's camera

wasn't even loaded, that he was just there on a jolly. So I'm really pleased that you've put that to bed, because I'd always hoped it was true that he took the life front cover. But I've always read and always been told, you know, the way that people can tell stories in boxing, they're good storytellers. And I'm really pleased that you've actually put that to bed, Sinatra was ringside,

fired at a century, and he took the front cover. Absolutely beautiful. Thanks for doing that. Well, I'll make the story even better. I didn't think the cover was particularly good. I thought they clearly chose it because they had three or four other covers laid out that happened to be my photographs.

I was up in the art department when they were. However, Sinatra took a picture inside that ran, he definitely shot the pictures, and he took a picture inside that ran for two full pages. We call it a double truck in photojournalism. It full bleed, two full pages. If you remember, Life magazine was a large format magazine,

so it was huge. It is beautiful. It is Joe Fraser throwing, I think, a right or a left. I don't remember it. I think it might have been a left. and, you know, and Ali leaning back trying to evade the punch. It is beautiful. It's a picture I wish I took.

And what made it so special is it is taken. He tilted the camera, unless he was drinking very heavily. He couldn't have tilted it that much. He'd have been very drunk. The camera so that the lower left corner has the apron and the upper right corner has the rest of the apron. It's tilted completely, you know, tipped. like on its side. Wow.

Now, when I told Sinatra how much I love that picture. The fact is when I looked at that picture, I realized if I decided, with Sinatra, Sanatra was going to leave the arena that night and go somewhere for dinner or drinks at Tuts Shores, who knows, you know, or Jilis, which was his joint in New York, his pub.

Sinatra wasn't going to lose any sleep if he missed the punch, if he missed the knockout, if he missed, you know, he just had some fun. and therefore he could play an idea he could play the game or tilted the camera he probably thought it looked very cool and he shot it was very cool and it made a great picture can you imagine my boss

if at the moment Fraser knocked Ali down I had the camera tilted so that there was cock I had looked it looked like I was drunk I'd have been fine in a second and I said to Sinatra you took a picture that I could never even attempted you know I mean

imagine you know imagine if I go all the way to Saudi Arabia, and I decided to tip the camera during the... And by the way, I wasn't shooting for Sports Illustrator. Then nobody could have fired me. But if Joshua had knocked Ruiz down, I want to get the picture. I don't want to have some artsy, artsy thing with,

you know, we're not shooting, we're not shooting an art for an art magazine. We're shooting, you know, journalism, news. And Sinatra did some things that night. Those are the only two pictures of his I know, but that other picture, the cover, like I say, the cover was okay, but it's nothing special. They put that, by the way, if you remember the cover,

and obviously you do, they actually gave him credit on the cover. Below at the bottom, it said in fairly large-sized type, cover photograph five franc Sinatra. They didn't give Alphor Eisenstadt or, you know, or Gordon Parks. On New Life! Oh, God, God.

Photographers always got Micros. We always bitched about the fact that writers got a large, you know, fund was large, big, big type. You can always read the writer's credit. And boy, if your eyesight isn't perfect, you've got to find the photo credit. Did photography then feel more important, Neil, because of the landscape of telecommunications generally? You know, there wasn't this great sway of options of cable, television, satellite television, the internet, or any of that. Well, forget about, forget about television. was the most important fact there. You can't forget about it. Remember, certainly in the 60s,

Ali Liz, not necessarily by 71, it was beginning to change fairly big time. But the world was in black and white. It wasn't in color and particularly good quality color. I told you how much money we had to spend to get that quality that you complimented on the Ali Liston picture. The fact is that when you see my book, which will take you through all 60 years, it starts in 1959 at Paterson Johansson, which I went. I had a $5 seat and a cheap camera, and I shot from the upper deck, the nosebleed section. But you go back through those fights.

I did Patterson-Johansson 3 in 1961 on the apron for Sports Illustrate. It was my first big fight. The quality isn't what you see later on when I had SI backing me with the kind of equipment that I could use the strobe lights. But we were shooting in color and great quality that you were talking about with Ali, Ali Liston. The world was black and white. So the first most, 90% of the people that saw the fight on television saw it in closed circuit. It wasn't pay-per-view.

Those telecasts were black and white, if I'm not mistaken. I could be wrong. I don't remember. If they were color, they were poor quality color. Certainly the newspapers, isn't it interesting? Think about this. There is not another color photograph. that moment of Ali standing over Sunday listed zero.

Not a single picture exists. There's black and white picture that's very similar to mine, which was taken by an Associated Press photographer who was, he wasn't right shoulder to shoulder of me. He was one seat away for me. And he took the same moment as beautiful in black and white. But it's a grainy, you know, tri-x kind of, it's a beautiful, beautiful picture. So when you saw our pictures in color,

that was the first time he saw him in color. when Winston Churchill died and Life magazine did an entire issue in color of the funeral. Nobody saw it. You never saw that anywhere else. People got their first look at the big events, whether it was Kennedy's assassination or a pope's funeral or the World Cup in London in 1966. You didn't see that in color anywhere except in Sports Illustrated in Life magazine. I don't know how many British newspapers. I was in London for that game.

I was on the pitch. But I don't know how many, how many newspapers in London photographed that fight, that great game, England, Germany, and in color. I bet 90% of your newspapers were blonde and white, if not 95%. So, yeah, our magazine played an important part in showing people what they couldn't get anywhere else. today look at the coverage of boxing I mean that picture from overhead

is done at every fight that whether it was HBO before this pay-per-view stuff came in their coverage is brilliant and I mean they don't miss anything they spend a fortune covering the fights and it looks at it and the coverage is beautiful it's great I love watching it on television

quite frankly perhaps now though Neil and I don't want to sound like an old man perhaps now though there may be just too many images it's all too far as it's all too much it and the type of pictures that you took and some of your colleagues took in the 60s and in the 70s, those are images taken by craftsmen, and I really mean that, as were some of those guys behind those typewriters at the same time. I actually absolutely believe that. Well, you know,

writers, I mean, one of my best friends in the world, sadly he passed away a few years ago, was Frank DeFord. And I remember Frank and I would have dinner all the time and he was lamenting even someone as successful as Frank Ford, who was a great sports illustrator, writer, and novelist, and there's a point at which access to athletes no longer existed. Even someone is with a reputation Frank DeFord had, you know, as you well know, today, nobody's sitting in the dressing room next to Ruiz or Joshua by themselves asking questions that everybody else doesn't get to hear at the same time. The fighters are brought into an interview room, and everybody has the same questions and the same answers. The access, access to the written press and to photographers is so different than it was back then. As I said, Muhammad Ali, probably the greatest known, certainly the best known athlete in the world, you could approach him. You didn't have to go through his lawyers and his agents and his managers.

He waited respectfully for him to finish his training session, whether it was a sparring or hitting the bag or whatever he was doing. And when he was finished, you walked over and you introduced yourself and you asked them for what you wanted. If you were right, you said, can I get a little time with you? He might say, why don't you come by the hotel tonight at 8 o'clock or 6 o'clock? I'll give you some time. Or he might sit down right there and do it in the dressing room, you know. But you had access. And that access is very different today.

With that in mind, Neil, the likes of Anthony Joshua and Tyson Fury, does that mean that you just, you don't get a chance to get to know them in the way that you got to know, Arlie and all those other figures from those days? I don't know, I don't know Tyson Fury at all. I've never met him. I photographed him twice, but I never got the chance to meet him. I did get to spend time with Joshua. He is a rarity. I'll tell you, I love, I'm a Joshua fan now because it's colorful and is wonderful. I mean, as fury is, as a subject, Fury is brilliant. I don't have to tell you that. But Anthony Joshua is a throwback to Ali. He's just a great guy. I mean, he came over the night he won the time. After the fight, I was sitting in the lobby of the hotel.

Obviously, you're not having a drink in Saudi Arabia, but we have a cup of coffee or something with my assistant. And Joshua was signing autographs in the lobby for people. He came over to introduce himself to me. Now, I had met him actually. I photographed him in the dressing room, in the changing room, as you call it, at Madison Square Garden. He posed for me about an hour before the fight with all four belts, which was ironic because, of course, at the end of the fight, Ruiz had all four belts. Joshua is that rare guy who I assume.

Now, I don't live in London now, and I've not seen Joshua since. But the next, by the way, the next day he came over to my table when I was having breakfast and sat down and had a little tea with us, you know, whatever. with me and my assistant and just said, hey, was a big fan on my photographs. I was really taken aback by what a great, and I watched him deal with people. Anthony Joshua is a rarity these days in terms of an athlete at that point in his career, you know, that's successful, who is that available and seems to be that nice. So I'm a little prejudice about Joshua. I'd like to get to know that. I hope he'll hear this interview. Going back to that time at Madison Square Garden, Neil, you say you were in the dressing room with Anthony Joshua an hour before the fight.

Did you get any kind of feeling then that this might not be his night? No, none, zero, zero. I mean, he looked awfully confident. But I was there just when they pretty well had cleared everyone else out. And I mean, he posed for me for like five minutes at most. He was just about to get taped. I didn't sense any of that. What I will say is it was a completely, different feeling. I was also in the dressing room with Deonte Walda when he fought, he fought,

who's the first guy he fought? Not Schwarz. Oh, shoot, Brazil. I was in the dressing room when Deiante Wilder. And there I was in for an hour and a half. Deante Walda was so loose that night. So he was playfully, he had his daughter, he had his girlfriend in there. I don't think he's married but he had his daughter, the mother of his of his child. He was playing with her. I spent the entire time when he was getting taped, photographing him. He posed for me with that ridiculous outfit that he wears when he comes into the ring.

He put on the headpiece, I asked him to pose so I could get something really up close and which you couldn't get in the ring itself. It was a very different. I remember being so surprised as to how serious Joshua was, But I don't know Joshua that way. He could be that way all the time. I just have no reference.

He certainly was ready to fight. He looked, listen, when you looked at Joshua and you looked at Ruiz, and I can say this since I've always been overweight, it looked like a joke. I mean, I would have bet my, I would have bet my house, my car. I mean, Joshua looks, he's an Adonis, as you know. And, you know, I thought, you know, I don't know whether he was, whether he prepared properly. I thought that Ruiz fought a great fight that night.

I think he did exactly what you had to do. He looked like Joe Fraser or Mike Tyson to me and that he negated all of Joshua's advantages by staying so close. He was right under him all the time. And Joshua's great advantage had to be the reach. Obviously, Joshua used all of those tactics correctly in Saudi Arabia. I mean, he didn't, I don't think Joshua was trying to knock Ruiz out in jail.

He was just making sure he didn't get. get hit again. And that's the way he should fight him. That's the right, right approach. I mean, he's going to have to do the same thing if he fights Fury. You know, and he's, he can't let Fury get on top of him and hit him? Can I ask you a question? Is Joshua, that popular with the press in England? I'd be curious, because I was very taken by him and really impressed. He gives us, I'll be diplomatic. He gives us what we need. So he has an open day, He has an open day three or four weeks before a fight, and we can all get what we need from him.

And then in the week of a fight, he'll do three or four things, and he'll be fairly inclusive. He's maybe doing less now, and he did two or three years ago. I think that when he was in New York, I think the general consensus is that part of the reason why he lost, part of it, there's a whole series of factors. But one of them was that he was too easily accessible and maybe had too many media commitments,

something that if Muhammad Ali heard, he would just laugh him out of the town, I'm sure. What I would say, Neil, about Joshua, is that he does engage. When we do get to him, he does actually listen to the questions and answers them in the way that he feels, rather than just offer platitudes

and basically give everybody the same set of answers no matter what you ask him. We do actually get somebody who, engages and, you know, gives us some kind of insight, even though the time with him is very carefully orchestrated. So, you know, we, for a man, going back to what you're saying about the, you know, the amount of access that you had back in the days of Ali compared to what we have now, you know, we hear stories of, of journalists being with him for a couple of hours in Zaire for the rumble in the jungle. Now, whether that was true or not, there's certainly

were given great lumps of access, you know. Yes, yes. Every day he took a walk along the riverbank and you can walk along with him as long as you wanted to. He was, but you know, look, I could see the difference, for example, you know, and I mean, I truly owe Eddie, Eddie Hearn, who I've really never had a conversation with. I chatted with him a couple of times in the hotel in London. But Eddie Hearn, by comparison, just knows exactly how to use the press. I was stunned. I'm assuming you were at the press conference a couple of days before the first.

fight and i was right in front uh at the press conference and eddie herne after michael buffa said some very nice things about me but michael's been a friend of mine for years and years a social friend of mine as well as a professional friend but eddie herne who i don't know eddie you would have thought he was my great buddy because if you remember he introduced me there i had told edie i ran into eddie in the lobby of the hotel where we were we were all staying And Eddie Hearn said to me, he asked me how things were going. I said, you know, I'm very excited about this because I think, and I think you could say, I think I'm right about this. I don't think there was to anyone at that fight in certainly nobody that was on the ring apron in Saudi Arabia, who was also on the ring apron in Manila and in Zaire, which are the two sort of comparable fights out of the country in great, you know, where the president of the other country.

was so involved in this case obviously prince collard uh but but uh the other the crown prince was there that night at the fight i didn't but i photographed uh both joshua and ruiz with caled and uh you know and eddie made a point of of mentioning he introduced me at the press conference which that's never happened never said another word to me that whole time i was in in in sordia i mean this was clearly Eddie, but he was very nice to me, and I would never have been that apron if Eddie hadn't personally made sure it happened because I think there were a total of eight of us photographers on the ring apron in Saudi, and seven of them were Brits and me. And that had to be Eddie doing that, you know, even though I was, I was working with Dazone. So, you know,

obviously Eddie, Eddie was well aware of the fact that Dazone wanted me on the apron, but that doesn't automatically get you the seat. I just want to finish, Neil, by talking briefly about the process of being at ringside. We're often going to ask us, commentators, you know, how we prepare and, you know, what are the traits and characteristics and any tips we might have for people coming through. But one photographer once said to me that over time, you can learn and catch the rhythm of a boxer so you almost know which punches are coming next. What was your way of working at ringside and did it change for different fighters? Yes, well, what the other photographer told you is exactly the way. It is if you've seen a fighter a number at times, you get to know, and by the way, it's the same thing with a football player,

whether it's your football or our football with a baseball. You learn certain things that they do that make good pictures. A photographer knows what they, maybe one guy, just the way he throws his left punch or how he likes. I mean, I watched, you know, I've watched fighters over a number of years, and the more I photographed, the same fighter, the more I knew about what to look for, what might be a situation. You always have to be prepared for the unexpected. And these days, of course, I never saw Joshua before the fight at Madison Square Garden. And, you know, I was not on the apron for that fight by choice.

I was on the apron, and as I said to you in Saudi. So I really didn't have any, I didn't bring any knowledge to the fight. but certainly if I had seen Joshua two or three times before, I would have had some ideas, or Ruiz, about what I might want to look for and prepare for. I saw Oscar de La Jolla fight a number of times. I always knew what to look for with him,

sort of, you know, many Pacchio I photographed quite a few times over the over the last few years, and I have a pretty good idea about how to work with Pacio, what I'm looking for. But realistically, you have to always be prepared for the unexpected. Fantastic. That's the great memories from Neil Leifer and his lifetime at ringside, stretching back six decades and more. And Steve, he was talking at the end there about how he catches a fighter's rhythm. He mentioned Oscar de La Jolla.

And you have to wonder how much use of photographer could be to a trainer in terms of relaying that kind of information about the style of a fighter, having watched them for so long and so often. Not might possibly. would definitely be a unique tool for trainers to pull in. But Mike, no disrespect. And I love snappers. And over the last 35 years, I've grown very close to several of them.

But Leifer breaks it down perfectly, Mike. And I get the impression that back in the late 50s and 60s, he did have spent an awful lot of time listening to experts at the knees of people. You get the idea that when he was in those far-off venues with Ali and the entourage, John Tarrage of geniuses, training geniuses, different men that knew their way. You get the idea that life had just stuck himself in the corner and shut up and listened, looked through his lens, became invisible and was listening because he makes so much sense. That was almost like, if you don't mind me saying so, that was almost like listening at times

to an old trainer, a guy that had worked with fighters in the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s. That's what it was like. It was like listening, revisiting, great moments. in boxing with a true genius, not just a guy who actually made his living by taking pictures, not by preparing the boxes. I loved every second that interview. I really did. I think it's one of our finest since we've been going. I really do. Pick out a couple of lines, Steve, mentioned there that Life magazine at one stage was selling 8 million copies a week. And he spoke about the fight between Ali and List and the rematch. He said he assumed it was on a Saturday. Well, I've got a book called

The Phantom Punch written by a fellow called Rob Sneddon. And it's a brilliant breakdown of the entire organisation all the way up to the Phantom Punch. It was actually on a Tuesday and the competing attraction in Lewiston, Maine on that night, was a huge drive-in attraction. It was Elvis Presley in Kid Gallagat. So they were worried about the effect that that would have on the crowd in the arena. Of course, the Phantom Punch, you know, still to this day arguments as to whether the punch landed. If you watch the film, you will see the head of Liston being jerked by the punch landing. Have a look if you want further proof of Ali against Zora Foley, his last fight before he took his Vietnam exile, and it's pretty much the same sort of punch that gets

rid of Zora Foley. But Steve, your favourite photographs from boxing or from elsewhere, I've got a great tale to tell you in a moment. Well, I've got a couple of boxing ones, Mike, ones that are particularly like, and they're not great in the sense that they're quite harsh. The one is Chris Eubank after he beats Nigel Ben and it's from several angles and it was the cover of one of the boxing annual books that came out and it's him with his bloody mouth, really bloody mouth and his slightly bloated features

because it was a savage fight that and he's got his hands on his waist and he's looking up and he's howling. That's one of my favour. I've got an incredible picture of Nigel Ben squatting and putting his fists in front of his chest and screaming the moment Gerald McClellan is pulled out by the referee

in that unbelievable and savage fight. And then there's another one. Again, they're not particularly nice ones. And it was taken, obviously, someone's camera up in the stands or a photographer was up in the stands of Whiteheart Lane, September 21st, 1991. And it's Michael Watson going down

in an absolute straight line, half a second before his head hits the bottom rope from the last punch of the, 11th round in the Chris Eubank rematch at Super Middle WBO. Those three pictures, two of those I've got on my wall. I can't bring myself to have the Michael Watson picture on my wall, but it's an image and a picture that will never, ever leave me. The life of ones, they're in a, let's, there's an expression,

they're in a league of their own, but I like my three. They all remind me of certain things. And wandering back to that era, Steve, it will be this week that we concentrate on the first. contest between Nigel Ben and Chris Eubank in the latest of our greatest fight series, with Richie Woodall taking us through the action from the National Exhibition Centre as it was in Birmingham back in November of 1990. But to that photograph that I was telling you, Steve, and the most mind-blowing story, it relates to my other sport of their cover in athletics. In

1968 at the Olympics in Mexico City, the long jump was won by an American called Bob Beeman with the most amazing performance. Even to this day when world records are broken by a huge margin on the track or in the field. They're described as Beemanesque because he took the long jump world record way, way beyond where it had ever been before with his first round jump in the stadium in Mexico City and very few photographers were there to capture it because over on the other side of the stadium where the finish line was they were waiting for another American called Lee Evans to attempt to and eventually he did break the world record in the 400 meters. So they were over there capturing that moment of glory. On the other side of the stadium, on the long jump runway,

first round attempt, Bob Beeman is captured gloriously, Steve, in midair. If you see this photograph online, it's like he is flying over the sandpit. You can see beneath him the officials with their hats on their trilbies waiting to measure the jump and looking agog at what's happening at this man flying through the air with the giant scoreboard at one end of the stadium as the backdrop. It's the most brilliant photograph. And taking this photograph was an amateur photography enthusiast called Tony Duffy, who was in the stands, wasn't accredited, was in the stands as a spectator. So he takes this photograph and later on developed it back at the hotel and thinks he's got a fairly good shot. It comes to pass that no one else has got a decent photograph of Bob

Beeman breaking the long jump world record. But word spreads around the story. stadium and all of those photographers, professionally accredited photographers who were over at the finish line for Lee Evans, come scampering across the stadium to get Bob Beeman's later jumps. They then sent their photographs through to their respective editors, claiming that those photographs were Bob Beeman breaking the world record. What they didn't realize was that after his first round jump, because of the humidity in the stadium at altitude in Mexico City, Bob Beeman decided to put on a pair of socks. In that world record jump, he's got only his jumping shoes.

In every succeeding round of jumps, he's got socks on. So nobody else can claim to have that photograph because that's the only one without socks on. So Tony Duffy, from the confidence gained and the money earned from that one single photograph which was sold around the world as the only evidence, the only photographic evidence, of Bob Beeman breaking the world record. He set up an agency called All Sport Agency, which became phenomenally successful

and which was sold in the 1990s for tens of millions of dollars, all from that one single photograph on the 18th of October, 1968. Incredible story. And Mike, wasn't he a South London boy, Tony Duffy? I can't remember. No, I think he was a South London boy,

and then he eventually ends up. I don't know if he's still alive now, but I think he is. I think he's like a surf. bum in California. That's the last I heard, yeah. It's this incredible story. I didn't know a bit about the socks,

but I did know a bit about all of the people coming over and making out it was their picture the second time. I tell what I've never seen. I've never seen a picture of Beeman and Duffy together. Did anyone get them together for their 10th anniversary, 20th anniversary? Yeah, I think they got them together when Bob Beeman had an autobiography released in the early 1990s. They got them together.

I think to mark the 25th anniversary of the... Oh, that's kind of like that. Fabulous, the way they can provide us, Steve, with a different kind of history of our sport and any sport. Yeah, not just that, Mike, but he mentions their once or twice life of pictures from the 50s, some of those guys that captured some of those pictures. And they had that same kind of stage quality.

Think about some of those Sugar Ray Robinson pictures. Think about more, more so. Think about some of those infamous Rocky Marciano pictures. They look staged. Now, and I thought he made a really great point there. It was a throwaway point in some ways, but I think it's really valid, how so many of the 80s and 90s and even the turn of this century, the fight's just blur.

They just blur. So all of that Mike Tyson stuff and all of this, and even the big Tyson images, him fumbling for the gum shield, they're not great pictures. They look like they're grabbed from, look like they're grabbed from the screen almost. Whereas, you know, we don't have, we don't have legendary pictures from some of the most iconic and legendary fighters in our entire history. We don't have those pictures.

We don't have those pictures. It'd be nice to have that, wouldn't it now? But saying that, Mike, here's the thing, and it's a bug bearer of mine. It's been a bug bearer of mine since I was covering amateur boxing back in the early to mid-80s. I hate fancy shorts. I hate fancy shorts with labels all over them

and local plumbing firms and giant corporations. I don't mind rest in peace. one's resting piece on the back or the front. But by gosh, some of the shorts that fighters wear, they don't lend themselves to hit. They don't lend themselves to greatness. Have a look at Ali's and have a look at Liston's shorts in the first of those great in your life of pictures.

And I swear to you, you will agree with me. And the great Emmanuel Stewart, Steve, was always anti-long and over-decorated shorts because he used to say that as contests wear on and they absorb the sweat, they get heavier and heavier, and they can affect a fighter's performance. But thanks again to Neil Leifer for sharing the memories of his great career

and look out for that book of his, celebrating 60 years at ringside, which should be out in around October time this year. Coming up later this week, a reminder that the latest in the greatest fight series is Nigel Ben against Chris Eubank, their first contest from Birmingham in November of 1990. We've got lots of emails from you.

Thanks for all of those, and we'll get through loads of them next week. Costello on Bunce at BBC.comco.com. UK. Don't forget to leave us a review on iTunes as well. But that's it for now. We'll be back next week with Five Live Boxing with Costello on Buntz. Let's get ready to rock! Boxing. They say all people are six social connections away from each other. Oh, here he goes again. Do you think we could try this to bag ourselves as a celeb for our podcast? Let's give her a go. I'm Jamie Lang and I'm Spencer Matthews.

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