5 Live Boxing with Steve Bunce - Usyk v Dubois 2: Breaking Down the First Fight

Episode Date: July 16, 2025

What can we take from the first Usyk-Dubois fight? Barry Jones joins Buncey as they rewatch the 2023 fight and break down what it tells us ahead of the rematch.

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and each boxer, all of the undercard fighters get their three or four minutes in the spotlight. Well, Alexander Usik arrived, massive entourage, fancy cars, lots of security, did a fantastic dance, which he likes to do, smiled at people, signed a few gloves, shook hands of a couple of boxing, young kids that were there, and vanished. Daniel Dubois, well, he didn't do very much at all. In fact, he had to be encouraged to do two or three minutes. But it's the workouts, it's a publicity stunt. It means nothing.

It gives you no clue about what's... going to happen on Saturday night. The only way to get a real clue about Saturday night is to sit down and re-watch the first fight. And I sat down with someone who, like me, was at ringside. I'm Steve Bunce, and this is a very special Five Live boxing. So when you watch back great fights, when you watch back fights from history,

you need a few things, really, you need a decent quality screen. Somewhere fancy, you know, one of those kind of fancy screening rooms that you have in Soho and Fancy of Parks Hill, London, well, we couldn't get one of them. But we did get a nice place to retreat away and roach back the fight. Myself and Barry Jones are going to talk you through the first encounter between Daniel Dubois and Alexander Usik. It took place on the 26th of August in a place called Vrotswath in Poland.

Now, we found out afterwards that about 600,000 Ukrainians live in that city. So believe me, it was like a fight home from home, a homecoming, if you like, for Usik. There were 100 bridges in that city. And Barry, before we talk about the fight, because we will talk about the fight, we're going to watch the entire fight, including the break when Usik goes down. It was an extraordinary place, wasn't it? It was absolutely brilliant. It was beautiful to look at, and lively, once it got back, by the way. It was one of the really, really... It was a student type place, wasn't it, I thought.

Yeah, but students of all ages. I fit right in. It was really... Well, no, there's not good truth, that bad. It was a lovely place, well, there. It was a great, yeah. And I think some football's been there recently, hasn't it? Yeah, unfortunately, it was marred by some classic violence. In that square that we walked around with a massive sort of cathedral in the middle. And I saw these horrible pictures.

Anyway, it's called Wattswath. Oh, that's kind of the pronunciation. And Ussick was at home. There was about 40,000 in the football stadium. It was a good crowd in there. And it was a good atmosphere. Let's just recap slightly. Just pull back a little bit and look at their fighting.

going in to that fight. For Daniel, it had been a tough night in his previous fight at Tottenham Hotsburgh Stadium in December of 2020. Yeah, you have Kevin Lerena who was a cruiserweight moving up.

Let's not forget that at that time. And really, it was a fight to make Daniel look good. That's the truth to me. I mean, Lorraine is a good fighter but no real history of heavyweight. And yeah, you got trop through times. He had a problem with his knee,

I think. Yeah, wasn't he? I think it was in knee. But he was over three times gone. He was over three times, no. And to be fair, he showed some grit not to crumble mentally. Not forget that. That's quite important as well, you know, building up to this fight.

And he came back from it. So I think there's some boxes to be ticked there. But still, the fact that Kevin Lorainer, who's not Alexander Usick, was be able to get to him that quick, was a worrying sign going into the biggest fight of his life. And Usik was fresh, relatively fresh from winning Jeddah against In Jeddah and South Arabia. in the rematch with Anthony Joshua, which was, I thought, a lot tighter than the first fight, and it was marred by those odd scenes at the end

when AJ was particularly angry, left the ring, came back into the ring, grabbed one of the belts through it on the floor. You threw it next to me, the belt, actually. Didn't pick up, did you? I tried to. It didn't it take you about 25 years to get a new WBO belt? Because the one you had was, like,

had been passed through different hands, and there was missing all the diamonds and rubies. Didn't it take you about 25 years to get a real? a new one. But I've got it. You've got it? If I can use English, I've got it.

And it's there. So I've got it. So I got two now. I'll sign Flash. You've said it a bit poshtin if you don't mind me saying. Yeah, no,

I've been working on it. I've been working on it. I mean, but, yeah, I mean, it was mad scenes, but I thought Uzik was still a clear winner again.

So that's two fights on a spin that he'd be Joshua. I've obviously in London and again in Jedder. So he was coming off on really good form for this fight. Yeah. And let's not forget,

Steve, huge favour. Nobody really gives Daniel a chance. That's the truth of me. That's an absolute truth because there's lots of incidents in this fight. But we get into the night. Your ring-ring side doing some TV, you're actually on the ring, and I'm the row behind you.

And I tell you what, it was a fantastic atmosphere. Let's kick on, let's watch it about it. Let's watch it all the way through to the bitter end. What I do when we watch these watch agains is I check my notes, because I obviously I take written notes, and I check what I've written, and if I wrote something about it. And I remember saying at the start

that Daniel looked like he had a burden on his shoulders when he was standing in the corner. Not necessarily now we're 10 seconds in. He seems to have relaxed a little bit. Yeah, it's hard with Daniel because you always think he looks really nervous, but it's a vacant look on his face. I think it's maybe a bit of a disguise.

I don't think he's nervous as he looks. But it was important for him to get a fast start. I mean, because Uzik's not the fastest start as he makes you work hard, and then as you tire, he slightly increases the pace. as a cruiserweight with more physicality as a heavy weight, with more in and out with the feet. So you thought you're still got to start fast for them

and try to use that physicality and the strength to push him back. And Daniel has a good jab to do that and couldn't really find the target that clean, but also didn't look overall, Steve, I didn't think. That's the point I'm making is he may have looked, he may have been taking some gulps as he got in the ring as he was Don Charles was taking his gown off, but he certainly relaxed.

Here we are, we're a minute in, and Daniel just cannot get that left jab going, And Usick utilises it. Usick's a clever Southport. You know what I mean by that, but he's not just the Southport. He's a smart Southport. And he's so far outside Daniel's left jab. Daniel just can't get that left jab down anything which would be called the middle or straight down.

There is no middle with Usik. Well, Uzik, Heavywitz, are used to people in front of him. The powers are worried for always, but they're not used to constantly moving target. And Uzik is that. And with that moving target, what that does is he makes. you think and when you think you tense up when you tend to you tire so he tires them out with that with his movement makes you tire but you see usually you can see him now the way he dips his legs when he dips when he changes height that front foot advances his body doesn't so when he comes

back up he's three four six whatever is inches closer to you yeah and it forces you back in that that putting their foot in the center of a sense quickly forces you back quickly go offkin did a different way but all those from that side of the world they all sort of do that similar thing. That front foot, pressure with the front foot, to intimidate you, to push you back,

and there then always advancing, and they control the space, and they're dictating the fight. Let me ask you this, Barry, if Ussis, using his own jab, moving outside Daniel's dab,

he's moving away, why isn't Daniel, why isn't Daniel, trying to throw a big right hand or a looping left, or might be in too harsh after only two minutes and 20 seconds? Because he's a massive guy,

and the last thing he wants to do is that swinging wildly and missing. missing is the missing is the second most tired thing the first most tired of thing is getting hit with punches the second most tight thing is taking shots so if you combine them which is oo-six speciality then you're in real trouble

you don't want to be missing all the time and certainly you don't want to be throwing punches too many punches too early but you have to be physical so what you need to do and he wasn't quite doing here then he's trying to touch with the jab you've got to double that jab and you might miss but you're going to be closer to the tag

if you keep that right hand up you can advance a little bit safer But with Usik, the way he gets that angle around the body, there's always a worry that you're going to get caught. But it wasn't a bad round, I didn't think. No, it wasn't a bad round. Actually, right at the end of that round, Daniel did try a sort of half looping lazy hook,

lazy left hook, and then Dubois and so on, and Usook read it, and went straight down the middle with the jab. You can't show Uc a second of your chin or a second of a wasted punch. But again, like I say, he changes the heights, or the levels, we call it now. He changes the height. And with that, when you get low, I say it all the time, you get low, you've got a better and a more constructive view of the target.

So you can pick where you're going to land. So he gets low and then throws a jab. I call it a screw shot, but an upward jab. And that's what he did there with Daniel. Daniel's trying to throw flat straight like you should do because he's a big guy. He can't make that same movement. But Dubois, ooze, gets low and punches up.

So interested there in the corner, because that's Don Charles. This was Don Charles' first fight working alongside Daniel. He'd known Daniel on and off for years, but this was their first fight together. That's a risk, that is because... In a big fight, I'm on your side completely. Even whether he's tactically, technically brilliant or not, and he's a good trainer, it's the trust.

Yeah. I mean, because especially in a fight like this, where you might have to tell a fighter to do something that's difficult that he doesn't want to do, that if you don't have that trust, he won't do it. So it was a risky move. You know what we'd do? At the end of this round, we'll look and see,

because it looked to me as we're 30 seconds into round two. It looked to me that Daniel was not. looking outside the ring for his father. And, you know, when we're in New York, I spoke to Frank Warren about that. And Frank Warren reiterated that they used the father. They use him as a tool. They get the father down. Yeah, I mean, I know they have a connection and it works for them.

But traditionally, I've never been a fan of that because I just think it's too many. It's like having too many voices. Well, focus in the ring should be on the man in front. Your eyes should be on his eyes and his eyes should be on your eyes. And more importantly, you want constructive. and maybe sometimes maybe you don't maybe you need that sometimes you just need that

horse whispering scenario where someone just tells you anything but it gets you motivated generally at the end of the rounder esk sort of thing saying silly something about firemen to get you motivated to go out and do stuff you don't want to do again

but when Teddy spoke only Teddy spoke that's the whole thing with Manny Stewart you never heard another person whisper in the ring with Manny Stewart was in the corner with a fighter just Manny offering his profanity

So we're 90 seconds in here Daniel is trying to get closer and he is trying to let that big loose left hook go Yeah but Uzik is very controlled He's taking a few cuffing shots But he's the one landed with the cleaner punches I think right through the middle of the guard There is a big gap there for Daniel

The left hand starting to drop already He's no panic stations from Dubois But he is finding it difficult To hit the target with force And certainly to get out the way of the punches Certainly the left hand there of Alexander Usik And I've always fought and I've talked to Tony Bellew at length about this,

how good Usik is it just getting that fraction closer, that fraction closer, without you actually notice it in moving closer. And he actually looks that bit closer to Daniel Dubry in this fight. Just an inch or so from the first round. It's the dip. Now, you know that, now. Good shot there from Daniel.

You know that, the dip. So in this fight, every time he dips, you should just take a step or advance quickly, one or the other, because you know that's him. So in Saturday's fight, that would be a... Yes. Read the read.

Read the read. That's his build up to an attack or to put pressure on you. So once he takes that dip, you either jump on him or you just take a step back and go for a walk, one or the other, in my opinion.

I think that's one of the few tails that he has. Because there's always work for him and nobody's figured it out. It's quite simple, but massively effective. Daniel, he's trying to stick with the jab, the double straightforward jab.

And in fact, he's even doing a class of here against the South War. He's throwing a touching right hand, which is, again, a good feat. a good feel of shot against the Southpour. But again, yeah, it is. That's better.

Like pushing him back with the double jab there, the double jab. But he left it too late in that round to really be, you know, really constructive again, I felt. But as he goes back, Ussick, it's like he only goes back because that's part of what he wants to do. He wants to move back. He knows the 10 second buzzer sounded. He knows his three or four seconds away. So why be in range? So I often think that, you know, people do two things in that last 10 seconds remember, Barry.

They push for the round or they coach. if they know they've already won the round clearly, which he had. And also, because Ouzik is giving away that natural size and strength advantage, he knows he can't take a clean shot of these guys. He can't. So he's going to take that step, because he can take a two steps back and then pivot to the left or the right. But that was interesting there watching that.

I'd missed that in the second round there. End of the second round, Daniel's looking so far out of the ring that Don Charles slaps him to pull his head back. I mean, he's really motoring his head round, I'm looking almost down into the front row of the seats. And that's important for the coach. You've got to take control of your corner. You've got to grab it by the Scruff.

Like a fighter grabs the fight by a Scruff. He has to take control of that. It's not a minute. It's 40 seconds, max, that you can give that fighter a positive instruction to go and do stuff. And also, it's very important not to cloud them in too much information. It should be one or two things. Yeah. Because they don't remember one.

You know, we're into the third round, and I found one of my notes, which I've transcribed from the night, and it says, and I've got Don, his head looks beautiful from the back. I got Don saying, hey, you listening to me, hey, you listening to me.

And then I put there, Dan's looking out at his father. They have an increasing pace in this round, suddenly the third round, Barry. Yeah, but again, Usik's still being able to reach with that jab and land clean. What Daniel's doing there,

and I like that, moving his hands around, so he's not just a static target. He's showing a bit of variety. Daniel looks a lot loose here, and I remember him. My memory of this fight is Daniel not looking this relaxed.

Yeah, but I, I always thought he looked really rigid, but you just see him then he took a little step back, but then pushed off that back leg. And then we talked about that acceleration of pace. I think Daniel's faster than what he looks as well. So he can be a little, he's not fleet-footed, but he can be a little bit lighter on his feet.

And sometimes when he does that, he does get a bit more speed into his work. I think he's always been a fastest ever way. That was a good little clipping shot. I think they clash feet, Southport and Northodox. They clash feet. And then I think he does catch Usik River left there. He's the referee, Pammond, telling Daniel there in the third round to keep his

punties up. Did one straight slightly low? It wasn't very low. So you know what that means, don't you? That means that Ussick and his people at the rules meeting on the Friday night before the fight had spoken to the three officials from the sanctioning bodies and the referee and encouraged them

to watch Daniel's low blows. I'd miss that on the night, Barry. People don't realize how important those fighting meetings can be those meetings with the referee and also the organisation people there to say we've seen this of this fight. There's a habit there.

They talked about with the Katie Taylor fight, wasn't they last week, about with the clash of the heads and so on. Watch the head, watch the head. Yeah, I think it's very important and no fighter's patterns and habits. And I don't care what you say, you put the referee under pressure.

Of course you do. You or she might deny they put under pressure, but they are, of course they are. They've had five people in their ear telling them to watch for something specific. It's on their mind. I think Daniel here, as we come towards the last 30 or seconds

of the third round, He's looking nice and relaxed. I mean, he's still lost around, but he's looking relaxed. What he's not doing? He's not panicking, and I thought he was going to panic really early, because he's not having the success that he wants, and he's not getting hurt by Alexander Luey, but he's getting pepper with shots.

And he's not landing with too many clean shots. And he's trying to fire back with he's getting, no, with the Alexander Luzik. We see there a nice right hand there, so, you know, he's getting a bit of success, enough just to keep him with a little bit of positivity in his mind, which is very important when going back to your corner with a little bit of success.

See that little combination That Oosick threw there Did he intentionally throw that high Was that meant to miss, do you think? Was that just like Was he looking Bring a hook in off that left? Or did Daniel get underneath it?

Yeah, I think For this, again, he might have done it as a cruiserweight Yeah With the size of the fighters He's up against here He can't afford to do things like that He can't.

We're just watching some slow-mos here From the end of the third And he saw there So he throws the jab And then he moves around slightly to his right And then throws the left And Daniel's eyes are nowhere near the line of that punch.

Daniel's about three feet away when that punch lands, Barry. But you look at quite often, it's going to be where Daniel throws a shot, but quite often, again, that dip he throws. Yeah. There's always, he has a little tell, and it's very hard to notice it. But it's there.

Can you remember, we're just about to go into the fourth round? Can you remember anything that you were thinking going into this fourth round? I mean, I had Daniel three down, but I had him still in each round. I did, yeah, I thought he was doing it. quite well because I thought it was going to be a really one horse race and and I think Uzik was in demand no in command I should say sorry but he wasn't making Daniel panic and there was no real rush and urgency in the work of Daniel so he wasn't making those silly mistakes he was just a slower fighter that

you know wasn't having the effect yet but also Uzik was working hard to do the stuff I mean it wasn't like a flip Alexander Usit making you work hard than him tire but he was you know the punches weren't have an effect on Daniel and he wants to have to throw a lot of them so Daniel was nice to compose

but still behind and he needed to make headway in that previous round he gets a wound by Pabon for a sort of an alleged low blow or a blow

that was a low blow there actually saying that in the fourth round after 40 seconds but Daniel is trying to work the body because Frank Warren remember had talked for two months

before this fight saying we believe Usik's weak at the body AJ hurt him to the body complains about being hit in the body See, people say that, but AJ's hitting into the body. Yeah, as AJ hitting you, yeah.

I mean, he's a smaller guy, so he's going to be susceptible to punches against it anywhere around his person with the size of a disadvantage he has. So, I mean, but still tagged in that body is still very important as it would be in this fight. I mean, Daniel's still got to be brave and still work that body. Forget about what happened. I mean, I think he has to. Barry, you can't say what's happened because it's not happened yet. We're going to surprise people with it in a round and a half. Don't let all the toys out of the box too soon.

There's a player bit of suspense. People listening to us here and they're never once to find. He's landed with a little shot there, Daniel, just on the board line. The referee didn't... That's the second or third. The referee doesn't warn him about that. No, not in this round. I warned him about straying in the previous round,

but not in this to fall. But look at this, see, Daniel here, okay, he's being out fought slightly with accumulation, but he landed with a nice right hand there. He's trying to fire with Alexander Luzik. Again there, good left hook. making Ozek regroup

and then all you have to do there with Daniel it's just that trying to steal the space he wasn't quite doing that he was still thinking you know I gotta be careful here I don't want to throw too many punches and tire myself out they were still thought there in Daniel's mind

about his fitness about the worry of getting tired that thought he no longer has because he knows that he can push it to the wire and then when he gets tired a reserve of real fitness kicks in because it's after this fight that Daniel goes on

incredible run of three against the odds wins and three stoppages against the odds. So we need to remember that as we're watching this. What is to come? But this is a very different Daniel to the one we have now. And the very different Daniel is the one we saw after this fight. I think technically he's the same fighter. Of course. It's in his head.

But yes, I think psychologically, yeah, he's a different man in general. And also becoming a world champion, I was in this gym the other week. and then the belief that he has in himself, they're almost arrogance to be, it's not arrogance with him, but the way he walks around now with the more confident approach with everything he does.

So that's the end of the fourth round. That was Daniel's maybe better round, but Ushik had to work fairly, not hard, but he had to work a little bit more in that round. Yeah, it was a competitive drive, really competitive right. Daniel had some really good shots. But there's no panic from anybody,

and particularly there's no panic from Daniel. He's looking, he may be down, but he's not out at this point. No, and also, Also, Alessandu Zucic would have been happy because he's not having to come from behind here and he's controlling most stuff. But there were signs there that Daniel,

when Daniel threw with him, he was having to take some heavy shots, certainly with our right hand. I mean, Daniel is getting hit with an awful lot of jabs and then Ussick's doing that slight switch, the south-ball switch where he's moving off to the side. Daniel's left side, left eye, is starting to swell slightly from the jab,

from the solid Ussik jab. Usik, I do like the concentration. You know, we talked about Daniel straying in the corners. You see Usik, his eye contact is constantly with the man in front of him. He is so pragmatic with this approach. People go, do you think you've got the stoppage in fights? And he always goes, I didn't even think about that. I just go about my business.

If it comes, it comes. But I go about just trying to win every round I can, the best I can. So here we are into the fifth round. Spoiler alert. This is a big round. so don't make a cup of tea in this round. Stick the wrist. There's the shot.

So he's on the floor. What I've done, Barry, so the right hand goes in. Pavel calls timeout straight away. I've already timed it, okay? He's actually been on the floor, 10 seconds now. So the fight, if that was a genuine knockdown,

the fight just finished. But let me tell you something up. As soon as it lands, he says it's low. It wasn't like it landed and he had to think about it. He said it was low straight away. And I'm sat really close to there, Steve.

I can hear they hit the plastic Yeah, you can hit a cup Yeah, you can hit a cup. What the problem is we don't have a direct science With regards to where the belt can be And where people pull their belts up And they're, you do look lovely actually You can reach out and touch it, pat on the back

And then you are right behind me, right behind you, I know, yeah I think I was stroking your shoulders Giving you a bit of encouragement It was like Beauty and the Beast Yeah, well the three of us While I am, while I might become Usik Jones and Bunce at ringside in Votsloth Again

Now, is he... He's been hit low. He's milking it. I know he's milking it. He's got no reason to get up, has he? But... It's hurting, by the way. I know people have been hit below there and it's been blood that's come out.

Not you, right? Let's not forget that. So it can be very dangerous. I mean, it's not just your... What do I say? Your crown jewels, we talk about. The obvious reason to protect. You're a penalty.

Just one second, Beau. He gets up at 1.20. So he's been on the floor for a minute and 24 seconds. He still goes on here, Steve. It's not all over yet. So Daniel is waiting in the corner. His corner are calling to him, but not furiously. And here's the other thing.

At this point, there isn't a load of screaming at ringside about how that was a legitimate blow. There isn't a lot of screaming. No one's doing a Mickey Duff and hitting the apron and screaming at a referee. See, it's when you start seeing the replays. There we go. On cue.

From what angle you're seeing at that, that angle, there's no other reason to say it's below the belt. It's completely on the belt. The conversation was originally was the belt too high. I think that was the first conversation, but the referee never stated that at the start of the fight, which he should. I don't think it's unnecessarily high.

We're getting close and being boxing on there. We're on two minutes and 16 seconds, because there's been lots of talk about how it was six minutes and seven minutes and eight minutes and five minutes. I started this the moment in the blow of my stopwatch here in my hand the moment the blow landed

Daniel's in one corner Ussick's in another corner referee's in the middle he's talking to people at ringside he's talking to Alexander Usick he's just conferring to say how Ousick's now been up since 120 he's been up for two minutes

and one minute and 20 seconds I would say though Steve the referee is almost encouraging is not rushing Ouse he's saying take your time In no way is he rushing us in he sort of should a little bit if you can I would have thought He should be saying to him, you know, if you need more time, take it,

but you carry on, you've got to try and encourage him to continue. And he's almost saying, I don't know what he's saying, but it looks like, he's all going, don't worry about it. When you're ready, you're ready. There was confusion on the night with lots of us looking around and seeing stuff. But again, I'm going to stress, there was no great screaming and shouting. There is now, though. There is now that everyone's realized.

Because it's gone on really long. Because it's a lost opportunity, maybe. And we'd all start to think, what's going on here? No, I remember we've been recently thinking, I know he was it, but he's up, I'll let it continue. He's been up for two minutes and 20 seconds, and the belt is going to start boxing. As soon as this stops, I'm going to stop the clock,

and I'll tell you the exact time between the knockdown, the punch to put him down, the referee's speaking to the two of them. Pabon is speaking to Daniel, explaining to him, you can't do that again. Daniel has not taking his eyes off of Usik. Usik is now very relaxed. They've touched gloves.

We're getting really close. Get back to your corners. He's a box on three minutes 48-08, Barry. That's the exact time. I've seen longer times. Yeah, I've seen longer times, and I've seen casually there'll be two and a bit minutes, by the way. But I would say, though, and I'm adamant it was a low blow.

I had from the very first time it happened, so I didn't see the controversy as others did. But the referee dragged that on longer than you need to. I've got to be honest. Daniel has to attack here. He has to attack more here. If everybody in the Daniel Dubois business is convinced that Ousick is hurt, right, then you've got it and feigning it.

You've got to go. If he's just been dropped by a legitimate body shot, you've got to push him back. You've got to chase him because there were two minutes and 31 seconds left of this round when Pabon said box on. And he's been hurt. Whether he was winded or whether it's just...

He's been hurt. So you've got to take advantage of that, whether he was low or not. You know he's got an issue here. Daniel's got to push him at this point. But again, though, I think mentally Daniel wasn't as confident as he is now in his ability. in general.

But he's had the man down. Devil's Amico, Barry. Lack of experience on the big stage. No, he's a young man. All these things, you have to factor in him. Plus, oh, that's a good body shot. He lands there.

That was a legitimate. He hasn't had losses of success, either, even the fight up to that point. No, no, that's a very good point. Yeah. Why he was a little bit tentative, but still, it might have been a lost moment there for him.

Well, I think that two minutes and 31 seconds remaining in this, the fifth round from when Ussick goes down, I think that is a massive lost moment, lost opportunity. I genuinely do it. I thought so at the time doing the co-cobles. But you know what?

Let's go back to the yard against Covalet where he, you know, empty the tank. If he goes for it and he swings wild and he misses and he gasses out and gets stopped in the same round, we all go, how foolish was it? He should have been more calm and collective approach. I mean, you know, it's a very hard thing to read, but I think he let him off the hook for sure. He did because here we are in the last 50-odd seconds, and Ousix. seems to have gained a bit of confidence, got closer. He's pushing down Daniel's left jab,

looking to land his own left cross. Suddenly, we've got a good fight on our hands. But I think, and I try to remember, no, because I don't write notes, unfortunately, because I don't write. You do fingerpainting. I think Daniel was tired already, you know, and that Ouziger's felt this,

even in this round, he's felt it. And I think this, I think actually, after that, that was the spiral of control. It was. So basically, Daniel, somewhere in that game, Somewhere in that period when Usik was on the floor, that three minutes and 48 seconds, 08, somewhere there, Daniel loses his way.

The fight's not lost, but he might lose his way during that break. Even that right thing, he lands the right hand. And Uzi takes it on the glove, but it's slow when there was no weight in the shot, like that's been in the past. Uzik will fear that, will feel that, and that will give him confidence. And I think it did to start being a little bit busier.

Yeah. I mean, because he finishes around. More menacing. Yeah. He finished the round quite strongly here. I mean, that's a great round. I mean, I'm not comparing it with the 15th round of Ali and Fraser 1, March 8th, 1971, but it's not bad.

In fact, it's Ousek's corner men who are going over and screaming at the referee, Pabon, and telling them to watch the low blows. See, at this point, I would like to have seen Dubois people saying, and that was legitimate. You've robbed my man at a title. I can't see, from any angle there again, it's on the belt line. All this borderline stuff, there's no such things. borderline. It's lower, it's not low.

It doesn't touch skin, does it? Have we found... I mean, there's a billion pitchers being floated around? I mean, as the punch continues, in my tend to touch in the mid-drift and skin, but it wasn't intentional. That's the key. It wasn't intentional.

He wants him to the body. He's just a big guy, he's a smaller guy. The first argument was he holds his shorts and too high. The referee never said anything about that to start the fight. Never said anything in the corner to the guys. And so he has to say is a genuine low blow

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You sit down with a juicy QPC, some McNuggets, and those golden fries from McDonald's. Then you take a long sip of your sprite because you can still hear your mama saying, Don't fill up on that drink before you eat your food. But you're grown now, so you do what you want. Share and share alike with the 20-piece McNuggets from McDonald's for just $6. Limited time only, price and participation may vary. Cannot be combined with any other offer. So Barrett, we're in round six now.

Now, this is around, okay? Bear in mind, who six been down, whether he's hurt, whether it's legitimate or illegitimate, is irrelevant. The fact is he went down from a hefty shot to the body. There was two minutes, 31 seconds left of the fifth. He came back to probably still lose that fifth because Daniel had a good first couple of minutes. But here he comes out in the six. And I remember writing down,

Ussick is back, he looks strong. But this bear in mind, as far out of the corner, it doesn't, still know, I hope Don Charles never watches this. But it was a low blow. It was a good shot in their mind. So they must have taught. I don't know what they can.

I remember what they told Daniel in the corner, but they surely must have gone, what are you doing? You've heard him. Get on him. Yeah. It's him again. Get him again.

That's what I said. Whether it was legitimate or illegitimate, it clearly hurt him. Get on him. But his corner, I think it's a good shot, don't he? So they're going, what are you doing? Forget what the referee did. You've hit him in a good shot. You've hurt him.

He's on his way out. Good count of, sorry, bad for him, that's good count of shots there from Usik. Usik looks really sharp suddenly. Well, this is where fatigue starts setting in, and Daniel here, and this is where he starts, that panic starts to manifest itself. You can see it.

just like again, like acceleration and the pace and the Uxick's work and the dip, the dip, advance, throw the shots and Daniel just know a little bit, a little bit worried

and Daniel's out to try and see these big guys trying to mirror the movements can you see it? He's trying to get... Try to the mirror Ousick's doing. But he's too big to be doing that. That's just going to tire you out.

I mean what you've got to do you've got to do punch in the chest trying to hit him off balance and then line him up at the right hand and we talk about all the time like all the 80s heavy issues to do. Now that was a very low blow there.

We have a minute left in the six. That was a decent low blow. It was on the fire, not on the groin. But you know what? The referee doesn't say anything. Doesn't need to. Throw it again. Yeah.

Now, there's 40 seconds left in this round. Then we're just a little bit of a, yeah, there we go. We're back to it. Yeah. Again, he couldn't capitalize on what they felt was that success. Yeah. But I go back. I think it's a mental thing where he's worried about tiring

out. I think a real worried about it. What happened with Joe Joyce? I know he had the eye injury. At this point? Yeah, I think it's just something that was in that he couldn't get over the line with it. If I stopped this now and you hadn't seen it, you'd been on, though, in the Welsh Valley's and you didn't

have TV for three years. And I said to you, Barry, what do you think happened after this fight? And if I said to you, he stops Big Baby Miller. He stops unbeaten Philip Hergovich. He stops Anthony Joshua in front in front of 100,000.

You'd look at me like I'd lost my box in mind. Well, I would generally think he'd have a chance against Miller, in my opinion. Yeah, okay. But no way does he be Hergovich and nowhere does he be Joshua in my mind? I mean, not this Daniel in this ring on this August night in 2023. Big round for Usset there. Sorry, Barry. But Daniel finished around with a nice little shot there.

So again, going back with a little bit of confidence, but still tired. Yeah. And that's very important. Tired. And let's keep that in our mind because I think that's very prevalent. what happens in the next few rounds. I think many of us thought that Daniel, by about the seventh round, Usik would just start to be increasing his pace.

And we've seen signs of that in the six. I mean, that counter there, that we've got, we have the benefits of slow-mo, so apologies for you not being able to see it. It's Usik doing that thing where he works his way around Daniel's jab. So Daniel's facing four or five feet away, so he gets hit with the left cross from the side. He doesn't even see it coming.

But when he gets caught with a shot, he clams up his defense. The elbow's banging tight. The hands go right from the temple to the chin. That glove protects him. And he keeps moving. Keeps our lateral movement, but he stays safe. Where other fighters don't. He keeps shelter.

He don't care if it looks like he's been hurt. He knows, I don't care what the impression is. I'll be safe. And then I'll advance. And he also picks his shots so well. He doesn't waste any shots. and when he advances he takes a little time to have a look

before he throws he forwards himself that by pushing you back with that front foot again I keep saying the same thing but it's so important that front foot pressure and the way he dips and slides forward is what makes him

almost impossible to beat because he's not there then he is there see Daniel here we're in the seventh round you know Daniel still looks like Daniel from the earlier round so we have to be careful

when we're watching this because we know what happens in the eighth. We know what happens in the 9th. When we're looking at this now, did we get a clear sign? Were you convinced that Usick was going to come up, was going to get on top? Let's try and take your head back to when you were right at

ringside doing the comms. I thought, looking back and people were saying, no, there wasn't a great performance by Usick, and I thought it was typical performance by Usick. I thought it was a good performance by Usick. I mean, it was just, again, I'd go back to that pragmatic approach. He's not boxing to make, to be, to be impressed. He's boxing to win.

Yes. And what happens quite often, it is impressive. But he doesn't do it that way. So he always takes his time to build into a fight. You getting tired is part of what makes, is part of his plan. Absolutely, yeah. He does his bit, and you have to do your bit. And part of your bit is to just get tired, A through frustration and B through being hit, and C, as you pointed out several rounds ago, by missing with punches. I tell you what, though, like, I thought Daniel, I think I can remember thinking Daniel was like really panicking in his brain. I remember, I'm not far as said, I think his brain is That's why I asked you that, because it doesn't look at it at it.

It doesn't look at it. No, so maybe I've seen something like, I mean, your ringside is you're seeing from a different angle, of course. I think you're judging back from the end of the fight. You're judging the fight backwards in a bizarre kind of way. Yeah, maybe, yeah, maybe. But, I mean, he wasn't being... He's being picked off easily, though, Barry, so for interrupting.

He's losing the fight, clearly, I think. He really is, but what I mean is, he doesn't look dramatically out of his depth. No. He looks like he stepped up a level here, and he's going to be found wanting at times. But he's trying to fight it back. I think that's real point. positive signs for him.

He certainly doesn't look hurt, Daniel. He does look a little bit lost, though, and he is getting clipped on any, coming out of any of the clinches, he's, Usoc's getting the last word, a bit more pressure there for Usoc, steady pressure, pushing him back,

letting his hands go pressure. And leaning back there for Dubois and Lowe and Uzi, then to slide close and throw that left hand right over the top in a straight line, hitting back, you've got to be taking, you've got to try and get low. If you're going to retreat,

you've got to retreat low, never high. And again, the fact that Ouzik's been able to put him on the corners in the ropes is always a worry for the naturally bigger guy with less mobility. To be put against the rope is always a worrying sign. In fact, there was a bad finish there for Daniel. He allowed himself to just slightly look awake and lost a bit of attention. And Ossick opens up like he does when he does that thing. And I think that was the first time I thought that Daniel was her.

He gets hit with a big left hand. We're watching the replay here. Usik clearly likes Daniel's body length. which we don't like it and it inspires Usik to let his hands go. But again, I think the way he gets caught, Usik doesn't load up with any shot. So even if there's weight in the shot,

they're not concussive blows because he's not trying to hurt. He's not loading up. No, he's just trying to hit you. Yeah, but I think I thought, going back to the corner, certainly see it in the replay. Going back to the corner,

Daniel looked a little bit lost. Yeah. I think that might be where these staffs to unravel. I think he's just thinking, I don't know what's going on here. Yeah. I have no answer to this.

He's not, You know always with Daniel, whatever's happened, he's been able to hit something because he has so much power and he's so strong and he's a physical presence. Being able to hit something, even in the round you're losing. Be able to hit something.

It gives you solid, gives you hope always. So going into the eighth round here, best Daniels won two rounds. He certainly won the, I'm going to give him that fifth round, but he's been competed in several of the others. The first two or three rounds were close enough. Usik wins them, but they're close enough.

Daniel's in the race. Now Usik is a lot closer. Even his right foot looks closer to Daniel's lead left foot, Barry. Yeah, well, because he's feeling the shots. I mean, say that, he's feeling the shots. There's a lovely right hand there from Dubai to start the round through the guard. But he'll feel the weight and the speed, starting to slow and the power not being the same weight in the shot. And that's a sign of fatigue.

And he'll know, no, this is it. Now, if I can maintain the pressure or make him move like he's doing now. Yeah. I've got to make him active, more active than he wants to be. and then start pushing him back. And I think, you know, he'll lose it. Again, he won't rush it. He doesn't need to make any mistakes.

Doesn't need to get caught with anything silly. Yeah. Just need to make Daniel miss. Panic and then start putting punches together in combinations. Daniel seems a lot slower suddenly in this round, Bowie. I mean, in this specific round, the eighth round, the seventh I didn't notice so much. But I'm noticing the few jabs that Daniel's throwing.

They just look a bit slow. They don't seem to have the power or the directness behind them. Well, I think it's getting tired, though. Yeah, getting tired. It's understandable. Anyone gets tired in this stage of a fight. Let's be honest. But, I mean, a big guy throwing shots and missing and not have a success.

You're not getting that mental stimulation that gives you that so-called second wind we talk about. That's obviously quite often that. The mental stimulation gives you the endorphins to go, yes, I'm doing something good to you. You push. He's not getting any of that. It's that brilliant Ussick jab where he steps outside Daniel's line of vision and wax it in. So it comes in like a jab. It comes in like a hook.

It's half hook, it's half jab, and it's coming in from the blind side. That's the punch that we said was doing the damage, and it's the punch that will do the damage in both this round and the next round. It's a simple shot, and it's one that he can use all of the time. He's being a bit cute, you know, Ousek just dipping over to his right there and just throwing the lead right down with enough on it. It's just trying to lift the head of Daniel of Dubois. He's looking for the finish here, Ousek.

Now look at this. I mean, it's clear to me now, not with the knowledge that. we have, but it's clear to me now that Usik, as you say, he's trying to push the head up to bring over the other shot. He's, he's starting to look for an ending here in the April. I think he's starting to hold his feet a little bit more. I don't need to be dancing around so much.

Now, I can push you back here now because I can feel the energy's different. It's slower, it's weaker, and you're still a big guy. That's be cautious, but still like, you're struggling here and he knows it, O'Sick. He's got enough experience to know that when you're tired,

I don't have to do a lot I just have to make you do a lot and that's what he does by walking you around he's making a big guy, a big lump move around them all of that ring you see it

all of the ring Daniel is having to work just to stay in this fight at the moment this is flat on the floor Lucy's getting closer and closer those punches are really starting to hurt now and making it miss

peppering him his shots which always makes you tired because they panic and making him move his legs making move that big torso around that big weight around That's lovely work for it. It's all fluid, isn't he?

So he goes down there, Daniel. He gets hit with two shots. He gets hit with a right-hook jab, the one we were talking about. And he looks like he's in trouble. Then he gets hit with another one. Then he goes back. His legs were a bit unsteady. He takes the count.

That must have been on the bell. I think that counts on the bell. See, I don't think his legs are unsteady. I think, yeah, maybe. Let's have a look again. Because I'm not sure. I think they're a little bit unsteady. I'm looking at it again there.

But it's close to the bell when he goes down. In my opinion, it's got some really harsh. I think he looks for the floor. Looking for a spot to go down, absolutely. No, no. I think he looks to go because he's confused. Let's have a look. So he gets hit with,

that's top of the head. Yeah, but that's that one. That's the shot there, maybe that one, when he comes down. I didn't really see that. But, I mean, I thought there was nothing heavy that landed, massively heavy that landed.

See, I think his legs nearly touched down. I think that's from a temple shot. I tell you what, his legs are really wide, mine, you look to like that. Really wide, yeah. But I just think, now he's tired. Look him in the corner. That's bad.

I mean, Don's having to really work. It's the first time Don's been with him in the corner. This is tough work. I'll tell you what, Steve. We've been, a lot of fighters I've been there throughout the career. When you're lost in a fight, you can't see a way to win. Yes. I mean, it's easy to say just push forward.

And we do sometimes. But it's a horrible place to be. That's instant fight to depression. You can't get out of the blackness. You know you haven't got the tools. Yep. Here we go about the ninth and final round We've given it a why I don't care

Daniel's looked unsteady on his feet Towards the end of the of the eighth round Was dropped, he went down, legs too wide Nearly went down, then what did go down Took a count, back at the corner His head was down, Ousick's come out for the ninth round To finish the job I didn't know, looking back no

I remember on the night I thought he's looked for, he's panicked He looked for the floor But you've looked at it again But it was when he's dipped He's looked at the floor, he's looked at the floor He's got caught, the last shot caught him on the temple, I think, and just maybe just scramble the senses a little bit. I think so, but I'm looking at it.

Yeah, I think so, you're right, actually, yeah. I think he definitely is like a temple shot. He's too harsh in me there, to be fair. He's bleeding from the nose, Daniel. He's breathing heavily. He is trying to fight back, but he's not missing with a single shot at a moment, Ousick. He's not frown a lot, but he's not missing with any of them. But let's remember where Ouzik has been, so it was clear, and where Daniel has been.

It's night and day. Yeah, good point. So, you know, it was a real gutty move and a step up to take the opportunity, which he had to, of course. Yes, of course. But, you know, I never thought, whatever happened in the fight, I never thought it was a bad look for Daniel. Yeah, good point. Do you know what I mean?

No, of course, I agree. He's up against, at the time there. That's a good shot. Sorry, but he's a great right hook he gets caught with there. The argument, who's the best heavy. Now, we know he's the best heavy in the world, but at the time, it was him in Fury. It was.

We all thought, Fury in the time. Let's be honest. But, I mean, one of the best, is the second best heavy on the planet at the time, in most people's opinion. So there was no shame in not being able to have the answers. Like, no other fight that had had the answers. Joshua we thought was a better fight than Daniel

So that final shot People have tried to cheapen that to a jab He doesn't go back from that He gets hit with a jolting right-hook jab South Pole right-hook jab lead He fails to beat the count Okay, but when he goes down He actually goes down smoothly

I want to watch it again I think that's a better I remember on the day thinking That that was a better shot than we gave him credit for So it's all over 48 seconds left in the ninth round Usick celebrating Daniel in despair

It's a good shot But it's not a shot that finishes the fight It's not Steve I mean I mean He shouldn't finish the fight No it's well And he stays down I mean I don't criticize anyone for that

It is what it is Yeah I mean you know I mean you're pain your pain Your panic, you're panic You're done you're done Do you all have our limits For whatever it may be

And in other fights You've shown tremendous resilience he was lost there and he'd be lost for all fights even when he was having success the last few rounds he was totally lost he had no success at all didn't know what to do

was trying his best exhausted he's getting hit with shots he can't see and I just think there's a massive panic with him there mentally and he could have got up

and he didn't I mean you've got to live with that and there's nothing wrong with that I mean he's lived with it and he's moved off he got through the joy swinging he went into some dark places and came back, and he went into some dark places after this.

I'm just going to read you a croak. We can see a man there in the corner, James Ali Bashir, an American coach that was working alongside Don Charles on the night. He said to me, late, late that night, Dubois started falling apart after the altercation about the low blow. He started mentally falling apart, dropping his hands, getting hit with jabs. I don't want to lose sleep over it, the fifth round punch he's talking about. everybody has an agenda.

Learn from it. Move on to the next one. Now that was said on the night. That's not a bad prep talk. It's not, but I tell you what, at this point now, Don Charles is fuming already. Yes. Because he thinks that shot.

Yes. And he still believes this day, by the way. To the second. That shot. You've had words with him. You've had discussion. No, no, I haven't. I perfectly say to me, because he's a big giant.

But, I mean, because I'm strong that it was a little blow, and he doesn't think it was. Yes. And he's made adamant that he was gutty because he thought that Ouzer could cheat his way to victory because if that was a real shot he'd stayed down and that should have been

the finish of the fight. It wasn't and we all know that and understand that he believed that because that was his fighter but you know so that's that's give this rematch the ignition really to make it more spicy because there's all that I don't believe it's true but

there is always that controversy that that could have been that could have That could have been a real shot. And the fact that since that night, he's been on a sense. I mean, listen, by the way, Ussick's been on a good run as well. Usick's beaten Tyson Fury twice, 24 rounds. Some of the unbelievable rounds. But Daniel, against the odds in a couple of those three fights.

I mean, I'll take the Gerald Miller as a 50-50. The other two, I'm not saying he was meant to lose, but he certainly wasn't the favourite to win. He stopped all three of the opponents, Big Baby Miller, Philip Hurgovic and Anthony Joshua in that memorable epic night at Wembley to line up what we've got coming up on Saturday. Daniel Dubois against Alexander Usick,

thankfully for all four of the belts. Watching that back with me here, Barry, in the luxury of our location, our secret location. Has it altered changed your mind or giving you a few more thoughts and feelings as we go into Saturday? No, it hasn't.

I honestly think that, you know, that Usik is a better fighter overall. I mean, I think Dubois, I know with his belief, the mental state is much better. I think the important thing is not in winning those fights, the way he won those fights. He busts with that

fitness barrier. They've realised on the other side of tiredness because I trained so hard is a reserve of fitness that I had but I didn't know I have. Heavyways don't get that because most of their fights have finished early as amateurs and pro. But as little guys, we learn that as schoolboys

and youth and senior as amateurs because we have a little mini-wars of attrition because we don't have that power factor. So we know if you can dig deep, you'll come through the other side. And then you find out in the pro game in long distance fights, but they usually don't. So he knows it now. And you see, and

what's the most important one is the Hergevich fight? Because tactically, I don't think it was great. He was taking loads of punches. But he knew stopped off the three rounds. But he knew after the Miller fight at last that if I just make you work really hard, I know I can last a distance now.

I know how fit I am and as strong I am. I'll just make you punch yourself out. And that's exactly what he did. So then when he came up against Joshua, there was no, he wasn't, I mean, he walked in that, he walked into the, his confidence was unbelievable. Yeah. Like he was Joshua.

Yeah. Like he was for him. Like he belonged to, Joshua was a pretender. Yeah, he was awesome. Yeah, he was awesome. You've been awesome today. I love using the word awesome. Hey, you've been awesome, Barry.

You're awesome last week in New York, spending all your time in and out of that. TikTok Diner and Madison Square Garden, the theatre and this event and that event. Electric bikes? Yeah, electric bike. You and Darren Barker jogging in Central Park. Oh, you can't invent this stuff. Barry, you were brilliant last week.

You're around this week. We're here all week. Now, tomorrow's special pod is going to be a nice sit-down with Frank Warren to talk all things, Daniel Dubois and Alexander Usik. And of course, the big lad Tyson Fuhr. There's a bit of Tyson Fury in there. There's a few other things in that. That's going to continue our coverage. In fact, it's like two weeks back to back.

It's not a one-week holiday we went to. It's a two-week boxing holiday we went to. And we're only midway through the second week. I hope you've enjoyed the watch-along, listen-along, analysis of Ussic and Dubois, the first fight in the hot summer in Poland, August 2023. I'm Steve Bunce. I'm back tomorrow. And this is Five Live Boxing. Hello, Chris Jones here from Rugby Union Weekly. We're all over the Lions Tour of Australia, a pre-match podcast, post-match podcast on the Whistle podcast from all the Lions matches down under. We also have a special Lions top 10 series.

With two greats of Lions rugby, Matt Dawson, Jamie Robertson, we've been ranking everything from icons to controversies. We've got moments, tours. Tries. You're in the controversies, Matt? Right of the top. Jamie, you're in the controversies too? Indirectly.

Indirectly, not your fault. It is all there. Two men who have been there, done it, and won it on a Lions tour. Get it now. Lions Top Tens on Rugby and Weekly on BBC Sounds. Chevy trucks have you covered when the road takes you from smooth sailing to Chevy Colorado will eat up some of the toughest terrains with five available drive modes and Silverado and Silverado HD have the muscle to take you out for some series

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