5 Live Boxing with Steve Bunce - Usyk v Dubois 2: Frank Warren

Episode Date: July 15, 2025

Is Frank Warren right to believe Daniel Dubois can beat Oleksandr Usyk on Saturday? Buncey sits down with the Queensberry boss to hear why Dubois is a changed man since their first fight. They also discuss Tyson Fury and when he might return to the ring.

BBC Sounds, Music, Radio, Podcasts. This is Five Live Boxing. It's Tuesday of Fight Week, and that means it's the media day. Now, before all of the interviews, Daniel Dubois and Alexander Usik met for a face-off at the bottom of the Wembley steps. It was going fine until suddenly Dubois started screaming in Usik's face. Usik obviously never flinched.

Now, I found a little bit of time to sit down with Dubras promoter Frank Warren. Now, Warren's been in a business an awful long time. He promoted a world heavyweight title fighter Wembley between Oliver McCaw and Frank Bruno about 35 years ago. So we sat down and we had a chat. Obviously, we talked about this fight on Saturday.

We looked back at some of the hard times so far in Daniel's life. We had a good look at Alexander Usik. Frank's got a soft spot for him, I'm convinced of it. And then we also discussed obviously Tyson, Fury. and also the rest of the heavyweight world. I'm Steve Bunce, and this is Five Live Boxing. Frank, thanks for your time. Dubois and Usik 2.

The first one was entertaining, a great big event. This one's going to be even bigger. I think it is a bigger fight, and I'll take what the management of Usik, what they said last time around they fought Daniel DeBooy, this time they're fighting Daniel the man, and I think that's the difference.

And they definitely, they underestimated Daniel the boy last time. Yeah. They won't be underestimated. They're underestimating Daniel the man though. They're underestimated power because obviously he's felt the power and he knows he can be hurt. And so if he catches him on the whiskers, he's one of them or even again to the body, I think he'd give him a problem.

And, you know, Daniel at the moment is flying high. He's coming off a string of really good wind, stoppages against world-class fighters and, you know, done them all in style. We talked in your garden in your house in about September of 2020. So about a month after Daniel had fought Usik. And you said, I'm going to have a sit down with him. You said to me sort of after, I've got to have a sit down with him. We've got to find out where he's going.

Two months later, he's in that fight with Big Baby Miller and fights his heart out and does the absolute business. That must have been a fairly serious chat you had of him, if you don't mind me saying. Well, he did have a chat, and I went through it with him. And I said to him, you know, you're in the other guy's backyard in going to Poland. What I mean by that is that there's two million Ukrainians apparently live in Poland. And out of the 48,000 people in the stadium, I think it was like 46,000 were Ukrainians.

They got behind their man and he's their hit, he's their national hero. But he went into the other guy's backyard and he allowed what the referee did to get to him. And he shouldn't do that. You've got to be focused. You've got to be full on it. You want to be world champion. You want to be the best. You've got to go out there and you've got to overcome all these things.

You've got to go and do the business. and it's no good feeling sorry for yourself and he did manage to do that at the end of the day that's my hip squeaking hips, he hips on knee take your pick, shoulder but it's yeah we had a talk but what was more

I watched back the fight the first fight and going to the ring you see him looking round all the way going to the ring not focusing on going to go in it just keep looking at and he's looking for his father. That's what he's looking for. They've got a very close relationship and that's what he was doing.

And coming back, we thought about who are you going to make an opponent for him, and I want to do that Babe Miller. And a lot of people said, you shouldn't be doing that because he's mentally strong Miller. He's, you know, he gets on top here. He's seen what he's like. And he was undefeated.

And I went for it. and went for that fight and his excellency, Turkey, how they shake. You know, they had a lot of faith in Miller. They wanted Miller and I told him. They did fancy Miller, didn't they? He converted everything.

I said to him, I said, my man's going to knock your guy over. And what happened in that fight, he started off well, Daniel. And about the third round, he started looking round outside the ring. Looking for the same man. Looking around. And he went back to the corner.

And when he went back to the corner, Don's really done well for him as a trainer, Don's done a brilliant job, Don Charles. He was talking to him in the corner and I could see what he was still looking outside the ring and I knew what he was looking for. And I remember saying,

gun grab his dad. He was sitting in the ring side somewhere. He said, gun find him. And I grabbed him and I said, put him in the corner. I said, get that chair and put him in the corner. And we put him in the corner. And I'm a great coach from outside the ring. You know, getting carried away.

But I said, tell the old man this is, and the old man's chatting out to the old man, and his dad's then telling him, and he's listening. And then from that round onwards, changed. Absolutely changed the fight. And he's in the corner now all the time. I mean, it was so obvious.

He had a really good start. He's in the corner, he sits out, but he's the voice. He's the voice. He's the one. I mean, on that particular night, I'd seen him walk over, he talked to you. You were standing up. Then it was great drama.

I mean, the fight itself was entertaining enough. But it was great drama. And he's got the rope. He's looking at you, shouting up at Daniel. It was just, I mean, it was like something from Rocky. Yeah. And I just felt that was it. I thought, you know, he's not going to, he's not, he listens to his trainer.

You know, and I'm out, I'm further. But that's the voice. That's what he grew up with. And about a unique relationship, you know, his dad's, from a kid, he's wanted to be a boxer. I mean, it's not, I'm not telling his stories out of school. I mean, he didn't go, he done his homeschooling, and he spent all these.

In gyms? gyms and training and it's his dad is that voice so that works and Daniel talks about that now before he would mention his dad

but now it's like my dad my dad's the reason it's my dad this so if he's just constant it's simple and it works an absolute tree going into the AJ fight

we will get to this Saturday going into the AJ fight there are many people that fancied Daniel to win but you were so adamant that he would win and winning the way he did. It was a bit like going into the second wilder and Fury fight.

You and a few other people, mostly Gordon Ramsey and John Fury, were so adamant it was going to end in six or seven rounds. Why were you so convinced that the way that fight panned out, how were you so convinced it was going in that way? I think it was Stiles. And A.J. was coming off a string of good wins.

Yeah, by the way. You know, he had a good run. But I thought with Daniel, I thought, you know, he's got such a good jab. And I thought, if he can hurt him with that jab and establish it right, early on. That's what he said to him. The first round get out there, put him on the back foot and, you know, use

that jab. He's got, I mean, he's not just a puncher. He's got a good chap. And if you watch the fight back, you see, he catches him with a superb jab and snaps his head back. Yeah. And I knew, I mean, I felt for me a life before the fight he would win. And and I knew that he would, he would

win that. Once he did that and, I mean, he had him on the floor in the first round. Yeah. And Hurt, wobbled, hurt, warwood. But, you know, There was a point in a fight where I think it was about the fifth round where AJ caught him with a shot. And he starts to relax A.D., it looks like a really good fight. And he got clipped with a shot and he fired back in.

But then when they told it, or was it going to be to go out, it's basically, and that's what he did. He went out, AJ and when they told him out, well, that's brilliant. That's what we want. That's what he did. Because I want him, you know, if he's coming forward, he will absolutely do a job on him. Because when Daniel turned pro all those years ago, back in Manchester, I think it was, we were pitching him then as the jab, the new Larry Holmes.

That was his big thing. It was the power was fine, but it was all about the jab. Because that was our sort of sales pitch for Daniel, because we've got a big heavyweight with a jab, first time since Larry Holmes. So coming out of that, the AJ fight, which was glory, then we have that pit stop in Saudi Arabia, where Daniel's terrific on the Tuesday.

He did a brilliant interview with us at the BBC, and then sometime between Tuesday and whatever late Wednesday night, the fight gets called off and Parker's left, excuse me, Parker's left stranded. That was a pity because that would have been an unbelievable sequence. If he fights Parker and beats Parker in that form at that time, that was quite alarming now. I was sad for Daniel because he just went, I thought then he might have gone a bit quiet. Listen, he's injured and that's the end of it.

It happens in boxing. I mean, we've seen it loads and loads of times. I mean, poor old George Foreman, when he got his cut eye out in Zaire, he had to stay out. They wouldn't even let him out of the country. Took his passport, son. Took his passport off. He had to stay there.

So he had his eye healed with Ali. That's what happens with fighters. That's boxing. You know, he can't bring, it's not substitute sport, a team game, it's the two guys. But, yeah, that happened. It was unfortunate. And then this opportunity came up. And that was a no-brainer.

You know, we're going to fight Joe Parker, voluntary defence or was he going to fight for the four belts? I mean, so what are you going to do? So making this fight, making this rematch with Usick for Wembley and with all the four belts, I guess it seems to me that it might have been one of the easier, bigger fights that you've ever made? Yeah, because we, you know, both sides wanted to fight.

We got ourselves together and we sat around the table and got the deal done. And for all of us, it was, as I say, it was a total no-brainer. You know, Ussick fancies the fight. He fancies it. And I like Uxie. A real true warrior, you know, Olympic gold medalist,

turns pro, cruise a weight, unifies the division, probably the standout cruiserweight of the 21st century, and then goes up to heavyweight and does the same thing. In, you know, quite close fights with Tyson, but he comes away with the decision. And, you know, we have a lot of a lot of journo and people out there now, they make him the best heavyweight.

All up there with all of them, which I love, because if Daniel does the business, then you can't take it away from Daniel. But he's a good, good quality operator. I mean, here come and fight. As soon as that bell goes, Ousick, he's going to go and put it on Dan. He's going to come out and he's going to try and push Daniel on the back foot, which is what I'm going to see him do.

I hope he does that. Yeah. And also, Ussick's not that small heavyweight. that we talked about for solar. We got lost on the size. Look, I'm going to about these small guys, if height was about

who's the best boxing, then two Tall Jones years and years ago would have been the best heavy weight of all times, seven foot, whatever he was, or who was that guy? The Beast. The Beast from the East, yeah. You have to do it in a Russian accent.

It's not about height, it's about ability. But more importantly, you know, when guys come up from cruise away, and it used to be light-heavy, weight is going to accrues a weight. They're growing to be it. They're maturing.

They're not fighting to make the weight anymore. You know, Holofield did it. David Hay did it. They're all good quality. They become big heavy weights. And fast heavy weights. None of them were slow. And Ousek's done the same thing.

He's a natural heavyweight. He's been fighting a heavyweight now for what? Four years? Yeah, yeah. Four good years. So do you think he'll come out and try in that first round? You've got that in your head. He's not going to be the sensible Oostick.

You think he's going to go for it? Yeah, because you've got to take the fight out of Daniel. Yeah. You don't want to be backing off a big guy like Daniel. But the thing is taking the fight out of Daniel as he's shown in the Miller fight and then all the way through the Hergovich fight and then the AJ fight.

It's not like taking the fight out of the old Daniel. The boy, Daniel. This is a different beast since we were in Poland. He took the fight out of himself. Yeah. That's what happened in that fight. Daniel in that first fight. I mean, he hurt him and he didn't capitalize it.

But there was like just under a four minute, you know, form it rests. It's nonsense. Yeah. Frank, I've got to ask you a little bit where we go, assuming Daniel wins, okay, which is a very real possibility. It's a glory night at Wembley, 80, 90, 100,000, 100,000, whatever it is. What happens then? What happens then with Daniel?

What do you do? He's beaten AJ. Tyson Fury's retired, he says Winkin. And then, and then. then Usset's just been vanquished. Do we have a trilogy? It depends how he, yeah. If you're saying, it depends how he loses.

You know, how to lose or loses. And if it's a really good fight, a competitive fight, then it's a no-brainer for a third fight. And also he's got a stack of mandatories, because he's got the four belts. So the first mandatory is the WBO, which is Joe Parker. Yeah. Which is right.

I mean, I think Joe Parker well and truly deserves a crack. Yeah. Well, they all do, all the guys there. And then the rest of them are all, most of all, all Brits. Again, they're all with us. So you've got, you've got Derrits in there going into his 50th fight. Big Del Boy. Del Boy is, I think he's the B.C.'s one.

You've got Fabio, WBA number one. Yeah. You've got, um, those is the other one? Moses must be one on two. Moses is number one in the B.O as well. So there's, you know, there's loads of Brits there. I mean, when I started out in boxing, all the, All the great heavy weights come from America.

All 10. The Brits, we had some good heavyweights, but they never won anything. They never won a world title. Big Joe was in the top 10 for about 15 years. Bruno was in the top 10 for about 12 years, yeah. He won a title. He won it, yeah.

I mean, bloody hell, they're like buses now. We've got to keep coming on with these Brits. Be the top 15, not a top 10. Can you keep all the belts under one roof if Daniel wins? Can you negotiate? Can you manage? Because I know you talk about those fighters being with you, but they've all got their own people that'll be driving you mad for the defense.

You know, whoever's got the four belts, all they're interested in doing is making money and getting big, big paydays. So if one of the governing bodies says, no, you've got to defend the title, then they'll drop their belt. And that happens. And of course, I know this is not a,

no, it's not a Read season fight, and it's not a ring magazine fight, but it still feels like it's all part of where we've been in Saudi with the great heavyweight fights that we've since October 23. So might we be back to Mike Daniel be back to Saudi

end of the year? Yeah, maybe back there to see how it all goes and let's see what happens. But you know, he's, but we've done, you know, we can go and sell 90,000 tickets at Wembley. I ask us, where else in the world do they do that? Nowhere.

Nowhere. Nowhere. No where at all. Nowhere. 10th 15th time in about seven years. It's just off the scale. Yeah. So that tells you the appetite in this country,

not in this country we're in today, but the appetite back in the UK for the heavyweight fight. Let me take you back a couple years. I really appreciate it. Let me take back a couple of years. Let's do about, I don't know, 2017-18.

So Tyson Fury is just coming back after he's been away. AJ's there. He hasn't yet lost to Ruiz, but he's had a couple of big fights. Did you, could you, in your planning it out, I mean, Moses At Arm was still only about 13 years of age? But could you dream of a situation

where eight or nine of the top heavyweights in the world or seven or eight of the top heavy weights in the world? They're not only part of your organisation, but they're in the top 10 and they were having fights like this fight after fight after fight big stadium 67,000 casualty for Ben and Newbank 90 here 60 or 70 later in the year

maybe something else big I mean these are fantasy these are fantasy fights they are big fights but we did you know things come in cycle we did all that you go back to the days of you know with Ben

Steve Collins the whole 90s stuff yeah all those fights as we did and and with Joe Kowzaki. Joe Kowzaki, Cardiff, 54,000 in the stadium. I mean, you know,

it happens. These guys, it's all about promoting them, building them into stars and they come through. I mean, it's nothing unusual for us. What's unusual for us is this heavyweight division that we've got so many of the guys on our roster. All right, let's just finish. We'll move to Moses Tamer,

fighting Dillian White in August 16th in Riyadh. young Moses. He's always going to be young Moses. He's going to be 45 years of age and he's still going to be young Moses. He's younger than the old Moses. He's younger than the older Moses, yeah, he's getting on a little bit.

Not bad on a beach though. With regards to Moses at home, was Dillian White always an idea, like a senior figure, you know, a big season name? He needs that type of fight. He needs that type of fight and Dillian is there.

I mean, Dillian fancies this. He feels he can old man him. He feels he's got the experience. and who knows, we'll see. I mean, everybody got this thing about dragging Moses into the latter rounds. As if like he's going to gas or something, you know, like all fighters, you know, there comes a day where you hit somebody on the whiskers and they don't go. And it sorts the men out from the boys and then you start winning fights on points and so forth.

But he's a, I mean, up to now, he's just been phenomenal what he's done. Certainly in the last 18 months. I mean, just unbelievable. mature performances, his composure is, he's like an old stager. It's quite frightening, yeah. One of the things I find quite frightened about him is that talking to him two or three,

two years ago when he turned pro, and I was talking to him and say, it's all about sacrifice now. You know, he's just about you've got a sacrifice. If you just give everything, he's really done it. He lives a ridiculous life. He doesn't have massive, massive social life outside of boxing. It's just a gym, and he's a,

to do that as a baby, is hard. is tough. I mean, because there's so many distractions for not just boxers or any sportsmen outside of what they do. And everybody's, you know, entitled to a private life. But with fighters, I think they're pretty unique sportsmen in as much that they can't, that they give up their youth in a big way. And if they don't, it hurts. I mean, you get found out. You get talent, great talent gets you so far. It's the dedication that gets you where you need to be. And isn't that one of problems with signing teenagers because you know you've signed teenagers in the past that

it may be great teenagers. Great teenagers. George Collins I'm talking, I'm thinking about and other teenagers. Tony Collins? By the way. We'll forget about Tony. Frank and I've got to ask you finally there was a bit of a flurry coming from Istanbul a couple of weeks ago. Tyson Fury was out there in great form, looking in great shape

which is not unusual these days because he's keeping himself in good Nick and he was talking to say I'm definitely telling Turkey and a shake that he's definitely coming back. Have you had a conversation or is it just and talking? No, I mean, the first conversation I didn't about boxing was over the weekend. Just gone.

Just gone? Because I said I'm not going to talk to him about it. Whatever he's going to do, he's going to make his own mind. And he's not going to fight this year. Yeah. You know, he's got this Netflix second series at Home with a Furies. He's got a documentary. He's got other commitments.

So he won't be fighting this year. But he's in the gym. He's in the gym, not just because, you know, it's about fighting. He's in the gym for his well-being, you know, physically and mentally, it keeps him in a good place. And so I'm pleased he's doing that. And I always felt if he's doing that in the gym, if he's in there, he's training hard looking hard for himself,

he's got that mentality, I'm in the gym, I need to do something now. What am I working for in the gym? And for him, it's working in the gym, I want to have a fight, and that's where he's at. So he's made it clear that he wants to fight on. He wants to fight Usik. I said to him, I'm hoping you get to fight the Usik that's been beaten by Daniel. And we'll see where we go from now.

Because I would argue that he needed a rest anyway. He looked like his body had been put through a lot in the last six or seven years. Maybe not fighting three times a year, but he'd been in big fights, big training camps. He had some tough fights. He had those, out of three, two tough fights against Wilder. He had a fight that I don't think he was right for against the, what he's the time? France and then Gano. Yeah, Nagano, the UFC fighter.

And then he had the two tough fights against Usik there. And they were tough fights, but he's not got a lot of miles on the clock as far as the fights. Other than those, that's it, really. Yeah, you know, he's controlled most of the fights he's been in. But he's not, like all of us, he's not getting any younger. And if he's going to come back, I'm not trying to really does it now rather than say we're going to do it in five or six or seven years time, like Ricky Hatton's doing, for example.

Yeah, yeah. Final question, if he were to come back, are you thinking that he'd come straight back in with a big fight or maybe do what he did before? We had that, you know, there's a couple of fights in between the wilder fights. You know, which would be one, it'll be either. I'll have to be a couple.

I think if he comes back, if he does have, like what we call a warm-up fight, he'll have that, if not. You know, it's test awards. He may just want to go straight in. Knowing him, he'll want to go straight in. 90-odd thousand at Wembley, for Daniel Dubois.

Life's good, isn't it? Life's good. It's good. And, you know, all our guys are doing well. We're selling out nearly everywhere we go.

By the way. We've got a show down in Bournemouth with the youngest guy on it. That'd be outrageous that night. We sold it out before we've even done anything. I don't doubt that for a second. We're out in Scotland again. We sold out the last Scotland show.

Echo and Josh Taylor. Ipswich. What a sleeper fight that was. Ipswick. Great fight. Fabio Ward. Outdoors. What great, great, great, you know,

a dramatic fight it was. in a football stadium you know who'd have thought a guy who's never had an amateur fight only had 20 fights

can sell 25,000 tickets in a football and do that type of stuff he's... Yeah, box is on such a high at the moment only halfway through the year

and this would be this would be a good year in most decades I hope so so far so let me take it right back to Wembley on Saturday

1015, 1030 90 or 1,000 people they're all holding up their phones looks like walking out in a milky way it's an incredible atmosphere you're up

you've got Daniel Dubra's dad just to your left so you're in the right position. What happens first, Bill? Ding, ding. It's going to be ding, ding, and they're going to get down on it. Who's going to control the fight? That's what will happen.

You've not been working on that reply, have you? There's no, there's been no feeling each other out here. These two guys are going to, they want it. And I think Ussick knows he's got to take the fight out of him. And to take the fight out of him, you've got to put it on him. So that's it. Ding, ding indeed, Frank. You won't want some young guy, you know, who's in his prime at the moment, maybe not quite in his prime.

You won't want him establishing a lead and enjoying himself. And catching you with his jabs and those bombs. You want to take the fire out of it. And that's what his tactics will be. Yeah, it's a special looking fight. Frank, that's brilliant. Thank you. Hello, Chris Jones here from Rugby Union Weekly. We are all over the Lions tour of Australia, pre-match podcast, post-match podcast, on the whistle podcast from all the Lions matches down under.

We also have a special Lions Top Ten series. We're two greats of Lions Rugby, Matt Dawson, Jamie Roberts, and we've been ranking everything from icons to controversies. We've got moments, tours. Tries. Tries. You're in the controversies, Matt? Right at the top.

Jamie, you're in the controversies too? Indirectly. Indirectly, not your fault. It is all there. Two men who have been there, done it, and won it on a Lions tour. Get it now, Lions Top Tens on Rugby Union Weekly on BBC Sounds.