5 Live Boxing with Steve Bunce - Usyk v Verhoeven: Eddie Hearn's Take

Episode Date: May 21, 2026

What kind of challenge will Rico Verhoeven pose to Oleksandr Usyk? That’s just one of the questions Buncey puts to Eddie Hearn as they sit down ahead of Saturday night’s fight. We hear from both fighters on what they’re expecting in the ring, while four-time Formula 1 world champion Max Verstappen gives an insight into his fellow Dutchman and close friend.

This is Five Live Boxing. On the ground finally in Cairo, it's a special fight week. And the pyramids, they're everywhere, and they take your breath away. You're in a taxi, you turn a corner, Bosch, three big pyramids, you're sitting down to have some lunch by the pool. You look over your shoulder, Bosch, there's some pyramids. You're on your balcony having a little snooze and a re, there they are. The giant pyramids, they are very special.

And we've got two kings of the ring. Rickoverhoven, the king of kickboxing, Alexander Usik, the king of traditional boxing, we'll hear from both of them and a special guest at the end of this particular pod. But I start as his tradition when it's five weeks with the promoter. Eddie Hearn sits down with me.

We drink coffee and we talk about promoting in Egypt and the fight. I'm Steve Bunn and this is Five Live Boxing. Eddie, we've been in some fine locations, we've been in some horrible locations. I'm trying to think if we've ever had a better backdrop than we're going to have on Saturday night when the moon's up there, a crescent moon,

the neon, the pyramids lit and two men walk into the ring. It's not bad, is it? I think people are actually not realizing the spectacle that you're about to see on Saturday. I think that's a culmination of the madness of boxing and just the efforts that people are going to now to operate outside the norm and the box. And I like to think we've done that over the years.

This is another level. I mean, I'll be honest with you. lot of work to be done. I went to the venue last night and Frank Smith's over there pulling his hair out and you know I remember

And the rest of your team out here Yeah the best one of the Because remember when we did The Clash on the Dunes Yeah AJ Ruiz 2 in Dyria Yeah That was built on sand

Yeah Which is exactly the same As this show on Saturday Two days out Of Clash on the Dunes in Dyria Compared to Two Days Out

Here Yeah Made Diri look like the Millennium Stadium ready to go. I mean, there is a lot of work to do. We will be banging in nails at 5 or 6 p.m. on Saturday,

as people are coming in. But that's what happens when you push the boundaries. And you will see on Saturday, I mean, look, it'll be a great night of boxing, but visually, it will be incredible. Yeah, I mean, some of the bureaucracy attached,

we knew there'd be all sorts of bureaucracy and I've seen your team working for out, seeing everybody else working flat out, but inevitably, inevitably, it does happen. It does somehow fall in a place. No one knows how, but it does fall in a place. Especially when you go and look at it now.

You just think how. I mean, it's like preparing a house for a viewing and literally two days out, there's no carpet down, there's no floor balls down, and then all of a sudden you rock up on Saturday and you've got this pristine property ready to sell. So don't worry, we'll be fine. There's another couple of don't worry, we'll be fine.

Before we talk about the fight itself, what's the situation with the three belts, the WBC, the WBA and the IBF, What's your understanding of what the outcome would be either way? Yeah, my understanding is that the belts are on the line for the championship. I believe maybe one organisation says we're not sanctioning the fight, but you will remain champion. Maybe the IBF, I believe so, yeah.

Do you know what? I think there's really good arguments each way, if I'm honest with you. I don't think Rico Verhoeven as a boxer, obviously in terms of his CV, because he doesn't have one. Yeah. Has earned the right to fight for the World Heavyweight Championship. But I also understand this is a guy that, you know, kickboxing, I know it's not boxing, but it's different to be in a judo.

Judgesian man or a wrestling man. You look at the actual world champions that started their career in kickboxing. I mean, Clitchko is one of them. I mean, like, it was a good kickboxing as well, yeah. So I think it's unfair on Rico just to say, oh, well, this is a guy who's just out of his depth. I mean, unfortunately, most people are out of their depth against Alexander Usik. And I just, you know, this is the one division that at least gives you the Joker card to be able to cause one of the greatest upsets of all time. Because Rico's a lump.

He's an athlete. He can punch and he's brave. Yeah. So he's not a danger. Sorry, sorry, he's not a danger in this fight. He's a real danger. Yeah. But he is fighting, not just the best in the division.

He's fighting the best in the sport. And I think he's got a mountain to climb on Saturday night. Yeah. But you're absolutely right. So when we deal sometimes with the guys that are transferred over from MMA, those are guys that Jiu-Sort, followed by, I don't know, maybe wrestling, followed by Judo.

They can't box because they don't even call it box. All it's striking, for course. At least Rico, who did have that fight all those years ago, he understands and he does talk about boxing. He knocks people out. Yeah, with shots. I mean, that's, you know, I know he does it with his legs as well, but he does it. There's plenty of footage of him.

Listen, he's going to be a handful. But unfortunately for him, he's fighting one of the best to ever do it. And I don't see anything else but an Alexander victory. When the Francis Engarno fight, I don't know, I can't remember if you were at the Tyson Fury fight. I wasn't, no. Well, obviously you were at the second in Garnaud fight when he got done by AJ. In the build-up to that fight, was AJ different in any? why?

It's a little bit like, it's a little bit of the unknown. I'm looking for the floor. Yeah, it's a little bit of the unknown. Yeah, that's what I'm looking at, yeah. What am I up against? Do you know what I mean? Like, and I was,

I remember going into the Engarnu fire. I was at a dinner on the Friday night before the fire. Yeah. And Tyson was there, Fury. Yeah. And he said to me, this guy's got a granite chin. He's so strong.

Don't try to knock him out. I'm like, oh my God. Like, because it's just like how good is he? And then obviously you knock him out like AJ does in two rounds. Everyone goes, oh, well, he was just an MMA fire. He's also an MMA fighter, dropped Tyson Fury, and I thought beat him or arguably,

you know, like whatever. I mean, it was a round in it. So this guy's a little bit different because there is more of an unknown. We haven't got the benefit of the 10 rounds against the Tyson Fury.

Absolutely, yeah. But what we do know is he's a pure competitor. And also, when you have conversations with people, Peter Fury, Tom Aspinall, you know, Overeem,

like guys who have been around him for a while. Guys are knowing. They say he's a, listen, this is a dangerous man. Yeah. And again, it's not like, the kickboxing element is just a little bit different

to something else. And that's my argument with the governing bodies as well. Like if it was a jiu-jitsu guy, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's very difficult to say, how can this guy even be fighting for a world championship?

This is a guy that has been in the, essentially, the boxing world with feet as well. And, you know, I think that people, but I think with AJ going into that fight, really it was the unknown. Yeah. How good really is his chin?

How hard does he really punch? Because we don't know. I mean, people talk about how hard RICO punches, does that translate into professional boxing? Maybe he's a monstrous puncher. Maybe he's the biggest puncher that Ussick's ever faced. Or maybe he don't quite hit as hard as everyone thinks. Maybe he's just a good bangor inside the kickboxing world,

which is a very different thing than inside our boxing world. Because we just get, I mean, in an MMA fights and kickboxing fights, you don't get hit as often with your fists as you do in boxing. It's just straightforward. You mentioned AJ there, and I did as well. I know that AJ's out here in Cairo. How is he at the moment, Ed? Do you know what?

We just did like an hour's filming with him. I mean, yesterday he was out riding horses in, somewhere in Egypt. God, my son. I know, he loves it. Pyrman's in the background. I would say that, you know, especially given everything that's happened, I mean, in a boxing sense and a career sense, I would say he's in the best place he's ever been in. Like, this training camp with the Ussid guys and all that kind of stuff. I mean, they work you so hard.

You don't really have time to think. Have you been out to the camp? Yes, I have. Yeah, yeah. It's amazing. I mean, it's not, like, I mean, it's scientific and it's, it's high tech. But it's not. It's also got enough spit and sawdust where it's like, it's a place to work.

Yeah. And he's just having, I think, you know, I said in this thing we just did, when AJ believes in what he's doing, he's the most dangerous he can be. And right now, he believes that everything that he is doing is the right thing. and in that respect I think he's just like emotionally and mentally

and everything and physically about boxing right now yeah he's talking about you know he wants to knock this guy spark out not Tyson Fury spark out and try and become undisputed heavyweight champion again which is something Ushik's talked about

yeah and normally he just talks about the one so normally he'll just say no I've got the only thing on my mind is Prenga no he's saying the thing on my mind is Tyson Fury And the thing on my mind is becoming world champion again. And that's, you know, that is because I think of the confidence that Ussick and that whole team and that preparation is instilling into it. Did I read somewhere or did, or hopefully I'm not wrong, did you go and see his bedroom in Spain? Yeah, we just talked about that.

And you just discovered it was like his bedroom used to be at the GB, a tiny single bed with a lamp, literally. I just had a debate with him then because he's actually gone, maybe I should get a bigger, bed because it will help me sleep better. I said, yeah, I think the science of that makes sense. But you know what it is? It's a really weird, I do it as well. And it's a really weird mentality where it's like, you want to punish yourself because you want to, you want to feel like you're not, you haven't cracked it.

Do you know what I mean? I don't know why. So, staying hungry. Staying hungry theory. Yeah, but Franks Meffle take the Mickey out of me because sometimes I'll go indirect on some, economy airline and he's like mate why don't you just get the jet or why don't you just go I said because you know what

because it was mad money and you know what this show's not doing that well so I'm going to go indirect and sit down the back and get plagued about AJ Fury by the other five fans for three hours and think what am I doing here and I don't know I can't tell you it's a right frame of mind but it works and you need it and I knew when I saw that bed and he's like look why do I need a big bed I sleep really well

in here I know that he is trying to and he's not even trying to convince himself. He just thinks, I've got a lot of work to do. And I don't deserve the king bed yet. Yeah. That's good.

And that's, you know, it's a strange mentality, but 100% get it. But I did say to him, but I think for recovery, get the big bed. You know what?

Nice thought. Or even get a purpose built single one. I couldn't believe it because I walked into his bedroom and I was like, where'd you sleep? When he goes in that? I went, are you joking?

I mean, he's literally got, I don't know, half a foot, either side of him. I said, no, you don't sleep great in there. I said, no, you don't sleep great. You just get in there and you go, if I work harder, I'll get the kingbed. Yeah. But I said, for a man of your wealth and your achievements, that is one of the great, that's why he is a great example to young athletes, to young fighters, to everybody, you know. I mean, I can absolutely understand the mentality because at the G.B. Squad, and when he was

training at G.B. after he turned professional, he was working with McCracken up there, he still maintained his same room. He had a broken lamb. but tiny, a 10-inch TV. And at a single bend. He didn't have money. He didn't have, but now he has, and he still has that same mentality. He's going so admirable.

So admirable. Well, listen, we've done enough of camels and A.J. riding on horses and a bit about pyramids. It would be a bit more about pyramids coming up. So we've got two fighters here. King's icons in their particular games, the kickboxing guy, Rico Verhoeven, one of the funest, nicest guys I've met so far in this business.

And Alexander Usen, one of the most professional guys I've met in this business. Top of the boxing game, top of the kickboxing game. We will get into them. There's only one question I've got to ask you, Ed, to start off. And I've asked everyone else this question. How did they build those pyramids, Ed?

What's your fear? Frank Smith's sitting behind you. He's a massive conspiracy guy. You know, one of those conspiracies. Oh, yes, I do, yeah. I mean, I have to be honest, having been at the foot of them and seen the size of them,

I guess the big argument is how on earth, with no machinery, you know, with no real equipment or any high-tech equipment, can you build those with such perfect symmetry and with the height and the extreme of them? AJ said, well, back then people would use other animals. I said, yeah, I know there's animals, but even if you're on an elephant, how on earth?

Each blocks a ton and a half. Yeah. But then, see, I look at it as a flip question. If men or women or whoever it was didn't build those, who built them? And how did they even get there? And that's the bit that I struggle with more. See, all these conspiracy theories, they can say...

And there's lots of them. Yeah, and they can say, like Frank Smith is saying, I said, so if... Because Frank's not a, you know, he's not a real religious guy, he's not really... So, he's more of a kind of just common sense guy. So I say, okay, so if they didn't build them... Who did?

Yeah. Yeah. And I don't think... What's Frank's answer to? I'm not giving Frank the right to apply at some point. I think 90% of conspiracy theorists probably wouldn't even have an answer to that. What they just say is they rule out anything else other than it's impossible that those were built by hand. Yeah.

By the way, I mean, they are. I mean... Some of the archaeological, historical facts that exist point to it just being very smart people, creating very smart ways to lift things 481 feet up in the air. Now, that's ridiculously smart. I think for me, I'm a big, big... For me, it's a big favourite that they were built by hand and by man. I think it has to be.

But listen, I'm open to, I'm open to concepts. And I'm open, you know. Well, Richard Torres, the heavy way, who I particularly like him, he's a great character. He's a magician as well. I don't know if you know. He's a genuine magician. He could put you to sleep as you're standing there. He said, it's quite simple, Steve.

You know what it is? He said, no way. He said, there was a civilisation before us that had flying cars. Well, that's understandable. Of course. Yeah, yeah. No, Hamza Shiras has gone down the giants back. in Egypt in the day, so one and a half time wasn't that big.

Exactly. I'm only throwing things here. Some very big giants. Yeah, they were big giants. Yeah, I mean, I don't know. If you're living in a land of giants and someone's big, do you call them big or a giant giant? I don't know.

It's confusing. Anyway, I caught with both of the boxes, and I did put the same question to the two of them. Here's Alexander Usik on, obviously, the pyramid conundrum and the fight with Rick Verhoeven. Listen, I think about it like this, I think he's built. physical, you know, water. It's not work guy. It's like a smart guy. Yeah. Yeah. And like a water.

Float up. Yes. Flood down. Hot up, like this. And like do it a lot of physics. Physica. Physical work. Yeah. Listen. I look like this and wow. How? How? I think God help.

I don't know. It's magic? Yes. So with Rico Verhoeven, he obviously is only at one fight, but he's a big man and he has a smart man and he has a big heart. He's a dangerous man. Yeah, this is dangerous guy because it's a big guy. This is fighter.

It's not a YouTuber or amateur guy. It's professional. Yeah, it's a dangerous guy. And is it hard because you have less films, less fights to study? You can't watch what he has done. Is it hard because of that? No, I prepare for this fight. I look for kickboxing, one boxing, but we prepare with my team.

I have no idea. You also prepared very lovely film running on the beach with AJ like Rocky and Apollo. So you're smiling. It's a bit nice having AJ in camp? Yes, yes. We're training, we do it in movie in Rocky. Listen, this is, you know, this is life. It's normal.

We, like promotion. Promotion, no, another. Each other, each other, each other, yeah. But it's good. But did you spar with him? No, no, no sparring with VJ? No, no, we're not sparring. with with we have training with AJ but sparring no because I'm not you know I've left yeah

but maybe when AJ prepare for greedy yeah I do it for greedy yes yes yes yes I do it but now no you would work with him with his fights fury yeah and will you work with him for his fight in July will you will he be with you until July for his fight for his fight In Riyadh? Yeah. I think yes. Yeah. And you've seen the fancy belt that has been made for you, WBC belt.

Have you seen it with your eyes? Yes, yes, I see. Another belt for your collection. Yeah, very beautiful. Let me ask you, Alexander, are you still enjoying the boxing business? Are you still enjoying it, the life? Yes, I like for training. I like in boxing.

Yeah. What about the boxing? Yeah, more I like boxing in the ring. Training, I don't like training. You know? every day, two, maybe three times of day. I say, please, God, give me power. For, in the ring, I like it.

So are you closer to walking away, walking into the sunset? Yes. I think yes. Will you be happy? I think about this, it's unavoidable. Do you one day just say, that's it, I'm gone? Yeah, one day I say, thank you so much. I love you.

Goodbye. Goodbye. Goodbye, America. Yes. And final question. What is the dangerous thing about Rico? What does he bring to the ring that is most dangerous? What is the big danger with Rico?

For Rico. Yeah. I think it's a surprise because we don't know. Yes, we don't know. And like maybe pressure. I don't know, but it's dangerous guy. Thank you very much, Alexander. Thank you.

Alexander Usik there in good form and getting very excited talking about the pyramids. Here's Rico. Now, if you think Alexander Usik was excited talking about how the pyramids came about, listen to this man. The big Dutchman loves it. Well, I visited the pyramids prior to that face-off, and it is magnificent. It's like, I don't know.

You're almost like, I hate the word unbelievable. But it is unbelievable. Yeah, but it's not unbelievable because it's there. So you have to believe it. But the only reason is like, the only thing is like, but how? Well, how did they put it there? And that's my next question, Rico. Forget the box in.

How did they build those pyramids, brother? I have no clue. I have no clue. Like, they told me, but wow, it's like how many people were like, Those blocks are huge and they, of course, they have the stories. They came there with the boat and they pushed it all the way up there with the logs and everything. But I have no clue. It's a miracle.

They said it took 30 years, 30 years to build it. Rico, let's get back to the boxing and the fighting. I saw some statistics this week about how many days you were unbeaten and 400, 400,000, 200, something and 22 fights. The last loss was what? 2013 in kickboxing? Yeah, something like that. Yeah. That's just so long ago.

Yeah. It's, to be honest, it's just numbers. Yeah, to be honest, like, I don't care. I don't care. Some, to be completely fair is that some fights, I win, but I'm so disappointed in myself. In your performance. Because I'm not happy with my own performance.

So it almost feels like a loss. That's how critical I am on my own performance because I just want to improve, I want to be better and certain mistakes you do not want to make. And if you make that mistake within that fight, it's like, oh, I lost to myself. And I think that's the bad, the worst feeling. And have you been able to do that in sparring,

you know, where you've had good day sparring, and then go back the next day? Of course. We've been sparring three times a week for six months. Wow. It's been so much work. So much work. I posted, I didn't post too much,

but I posted a video with me being all bruised up. When you came, when you're in London, you were a bit bruised up. Yeah, but after that, it was even worse. Like, oh my God, my eyes were black and blue. My body was black and blue.

So it's been quite a journey, to be honest. And when did you first find out that you might be fighting? Because the first of it was Joshua, then it switched to Ouse. So when was that? Was that September, August, or has it been a whole year of the promise of a big fight? No, so the fight was with Joshua was, I think I was on a set of Roadhouse 2.

I was shooting a movie. I think within October. I love the way you say shooting a movie, by the way. Well done. Yeah. That's good. That's proper. That's really good.

In October, November. And then that was signed. Then the horrific accident happened. So then got derailed. And then they said, okay, wait, but do you want to fight? Do you want to wait for Joshua? I said, I want to fight. I'm excited, you know, I want to get.

And then they said, okay, let's figure something out. Then me and the team got together and we're like, okay, but who is out there for us that would make sense? And then he said, hey, what about Usik? Yeah, what about Usik? That would be crazy. But would he be up for it? Like, I don't know. I said, like, you know what?

let's call the organization and let's see what they say. So I pitched them the story because he's the undisputed within his discipline. I've been the undisputed in my discipline. I said, what about undisputed versus undisputed? King be king. That silence on the phone. I was like, oh my God, what did I just say? And then they said, we love it.

I was like, oh my God, but what does that mean? So, and then they said, we're going to talk to him and we're going to come back to you. Within two weeks, they said, like, he loves it as well. Great idea. And I think another two weeks later, we were on a quick FaceTime together, me and Usik. Was that the first time you'd spoken to him? Yeah. And it was like seconds.

And that was that. It's going to be the night. The pyramids are there. There'll be neon lights. The ring will be lit. There'll be stars in the sky. It'll be hot. Yes, sir.

What will it be like? Do you think, can you imagine walking from your dressing room across the walkway to that ring? What do you think it will be like? Okay, so now, to be completely honest, like I'm now thinking about, am I just going to manufacture a false answer? I'm going to be truthful. Be truthful, please. I'll just be truthful. And to me, to be 100% completely truthful with this, I couldn't care less.

It's just a fight. It is just a fight and that fight could have taken place within my gym. With just his trainer and my trainer. That's how I look at it. And is it amazing? And I love to be a part of history. And we're here in Egypt, in front of the pyramids. Getting this fight even was already crazy.

Then thinking about a venue, it could be Madison Square Garden, Las Vegas, maybe Amsterdam. Or Wembley, Wembley, whatever. It could be anywhere. but the pyramids were definitely not on my list. I had no clue that this was even possible. So with this happening in front, it's such an amazing feeling and I feel so blessed to be a part of history,

but like I said, that ring could have been anywhere and it would have been totally fine with me because I still have to perform at the best of my ability no matter where that ring is. So we've heard from the two of them there with different theories, but what I got from Verhoven, and you've been around Verhoven this week, you've seen him,

is there's not just a confidence, there's just a, he's kind of content with who he is. Is he a bit too content, Ed? Is he here just to spend two hours on the red carpet or three hours on the red carpet? Yeah, that was a lot. Yeah, it was a big session. I mean, that, you know,

some might call that any experience, some might call that doing his job, you know, which you have to respect. Bit of both, definitely. Yeah. I think that he probably doesn't know what to quite expect because until you get in there with Usig, you don't realise how good he is, you know,

and Behoeven's a high performer, he's a high achiever, so his confidence will be sky high because he believes that he can go in there and he believes he has the power to knock anybody out. But, you know, that could, I think it could be quite a humbling experience going back to that stall. at the end of the first round and the end of the second round thinking, I don't really...

What about what I've got to do here? I don't really have the answers here. And I think you'll realise that. Listen, I would say, Ousick is approaching 40, you know. But I just don't see, especially going out to the gym and watching A.J. train and seeing him around him. I just don't see a guy that's deteriorating or depleting in any way, shape or form.

Because you've been around fighters, or you've promoted, obviously, who's sitting, you've been around fighters that have lost to him. And, I mean, Tony Bellew, still talks now. I mean, Tony Billy, who's a smart fighter, Tony. Let's get that right. He sometimes makes out he isn't a smart fighter, but Tony's a smart fighter. And even he still can't work out

what Usick made him do all those years ago. And AJ, you saw AJ, certainly in the rematch, in Jeddah, where he's trying to work out. He thought he worked. AJ just said to me, Usick's like, you know, in the street fighting game where you've got like your energy levels, he saps those real quick.

And he'll definitely sap those against Rico. So basically, what I'm saying is if Rico don't do anything in the first two three rounds, this fight is only, I mean, it's probably only going one way anyway, but it's like he, he will be, Rico will be exhausted after three rounds. Quite quickly. Like, he, and he won't believe it, because he thinks he's ready for 10, hard rounds. Yes, so I looked at Rico warming up and looked him a little bit, and it strikes me that

everything's going to be full power with him. There's no touch with him, there's no, of course. But know that you have to win the fight in the first three or four rounds. Yeah, and that's the astricks attached to that. It's a three or four rounds, and then after that, those arms, those shoulders. I mean, you said to me back in London how big his hands are, how big his head is, how big he's just, you know. But that energy could go real quick. You could do I did a Rico and a couple of his brothers could have knocked that pyramid out quite comfortably, to be perfectly honest with you.

Anyway, there is a man that knows Rico very well and also knows just how much he puts into it. And that's the, well, the F1 driver, Max Verstappen. Here's Max. Well, the thing that I know about Rico is that he will always prepare really well. Actually, probably preparing is the wrong word because he's always ready. That's probably the big difference to a lot of boxes or kickboxes where they get ready, but he always stays ready. So it frames it then probably a little bit easier to be fully in shape, I guess. Of course, boxing is a little bit different to kickboxing.

So for sure, it takes a bit of adjustment. But at the same time, I'm also sure that over the years that he has trained, You don't only train, of course, just a kickboxing style. You do a lot of different things. You do MMA, you do boxing. So, yeah, it's going to be really interesting to see. I'll for sure we'll be watching. And, of course, I hope he wins,

but at the same time, I hope that it's, that is just a great fight. You know, he has dominated his sport for a very long time, so I can also imagine that at one point maybe you want to do, yeah, something a little bit different and just have a go at that. And, yeah, I'm sure that he will be as well prepared as he can be. happened they're talking about just how thoroughly he prepares. And I don't doubt how thoroughly Rico Verhoeven prepares, but so did Tony Bellew. So as whatever it is, 24 other professional boxers who have come up short against Alexander Usik. Going forward, Ed, I spoke to Usik.

Well, you heard from him there, Usik talking there about, he's not quite sure about the training. I don't think he's got the same amount of love. And I don't see him being around much longer. Much, much longer. I don't see what's out there for him. Yeah, I think, you know, people talk about the Cabiel fight. I think that's a big fight for Germany. I don't think Usset needs the money.

No. So it's like, but also, remember, this is their life. So it's very difficult to walk away when you feel like physically I still feel good and, you know, and the challenge is in there. Like, I think Ucic going to Germany to fight Cabiao in his backyard. I mean...

You'd like that. Yeah, but it's also a tough fight. Like, you, at some stage, you're probably going to get beat by someone you shouldn't get beat by. And I think for Usick to retire undefated, it's pretty cool, isn't it? I mean, bear in mind his CV. I would rather he retired,

undefeated, than went on a little bit longer and got beat. I mean, he gets to wander around stately and regal, everywhere he goes, man. Just get that adoration. He's a modern day great. Yeah, he is a modern great. As to then, it's been a pleasure talking to you. Slightly let down that you didn't have any wild theories about the pyramids,

but at the same time... Frank, come here a sec. Can you tell everybody on BBC 5 Live how the pyramids were actually built? 5,000 years ago? Yeah. I don't know really. I don't truly believe that they have machinery or the manpower to do it. No, I don't know.

I've said I don't know. People say it's aliens. No, I'm not ruling it out. It's my opinion. So could it have been... You're allowed in the opinion. Do you think they built it in 30 years? Okay, cool.

So could it have been celestial? Could it have been otherworldly? I think maybe it's a big boulder. some people say it's water erosion, actually. There you go. And by the way, while you're here, did they actually land on the moon? I don't believe they did.

This is what I have to deal with them, is that? That's what I have to deal with. And just think, just, but in all fairness, Ed, if you don't mind me saying so, I blame you slightly. He came to you when he was 16. True.

So you could have, in theory, forced a little bit more common sense on him. I know, I know. But the moon... You've had it for 16 years now, Ed? Frank Smith believes that they filmed that in a studio. Because of the shableness. and all of that sort of stuff, yeah.

And the flag waving. There's no wind up on the moon. So what happens when Frank Smith and Carl Fawkes get together? Don't. I mean, no, Frank's not a flat earther. Okay. So, yeah. Listen, Ed, we'll leave it there.

It's been a pleasure talking to you. Thanks very much indeed. So the pharaohs are buried. Dozens of pharaohs. It turns out there's 118 identifiable pyramids in Egypt. Who knew? Well, I knew, obviously. Now, the valley of the kings, where they found Tutank,

that's 743 kilometers from where I'm sitting. We've had kings on today's show, including the king of F1, Max Verstappen. That was a lovely little cameo from the big lad, to be perfectly honest with you. Tomorrow, I get the king of analysis. Richie Woodall will join me. I'm Steve Bunce, and this is Five Live Boxing. Welcome to the Wade Rudy Show. We're joined by Wayne Redis.

We are joined by the actor James Nelson Jones. Is that him, Lars? We've got to get you in season, okay? We've got to do it. Brulong, this is the first. interview I've ever done. Very nice to be here with you. I played against you.

I got the shirt of you, but you don't know it. I ask Juan to get it for me. Paddy, thank you so much for being with this today. A norman I win the belts. That's in my destiny. It was just, that wasn't my time. The Wayne Rooney show. Watch an eye player.

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