60 Minutes - The Big Gamble: Sports Betting | 60 Minutes: A Second Look

Episode Date: December 3, 2024

One of the biggest stories in sports may be happening off the field – and on betting apps. As 60 Minutes correspondent Jon Wertheim reported earlier this year, what was once done in the shadows is now as much a part of the spectator experience as hot dogs and foam fingers. Placing wagers on everything from point spreads to the color of gatorade bottles is now fully legal in most states. But the popularization of sports betting has brought a new wave of concern over gambling addiction – a condition that 60 Minutes has been covering since before it was officially recognized by the DSM. As we grapple with this new normal, we remember a series of stories from the from the 1970s and 80s – when Dan Rather and Harry Reasoner met an extreme compulsive gambler named Irving North whose addiction was destroying his family. We meet his son Larry today as he relives his experience with his father and their time with 60 Minutes. And Wertheim joins us to consider what the past might say about the future. For more episodes like this one, search for "60 Minutes: A Second Look" and follow the show, wherever you get your podcasts. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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been searching for. Public Mobile, different is calling. No wages can be taken over the phone. All wages must be over-the-counter only. You're quite welcome. I take it you just took care of a customer. In 1969, when correspondent Harry Reisner first covered the topic of gambling for 60 Minutes, placing a bet on sports was just a bit more challenging

than it is today. In the 1990s, as Steve Croft reported, it got easier to place a bet on sports was just a bit more challenging than it is today. In the 1990s, as Steve Croft reported, it got easier to place a bet, and the sports gambling networks were getting more sophisticated. To try and avoid the heat, the billion-dollar bookie came up with a new ploy. He moved his operations offshore, here, to the Caribbean island nation of the Dominican Republic, where gambling is legal. Sacco installed TV satellite dishes, and to keep in touch with his clientele, Sacco arranged for toll-free 800 numbers connected to AT&T in the United States. by the World Wide Web, as Morley Safer noted. It's now possible to do it from the comfort of your home,

where all you have to do is point and click. The methods evolved, but like other kinds of gambling, sports betting mostly stayed on the periphery of society. There was such a stigma attached to gambling, and you could have fun with your buddies and do it in Vegas, but otherwise it was sort of subroza. The biggest sports betting scandals, of course, came when high-profile athletes were caught betting. Baseball legend Pete Rose, who died in September, was one of the most famous cases.

I'm the best ambassador baseball has today, and they don't even want me to go to the ballpark. And while professional athletes are still forbidden from gambling on their own sports and most others, for the average fan, sports gambling has gone mainstream, as 60 Minutes' John Wertheim reported in 2019. Last year, the Supreme Court overturned a federal law and ruled that it is up to the states to decide whether they want to legalize sports

gambling. New Jersey led the way. Many more followed, and more are planning too soon. Now, more and more Americans are getting into gambling and learning that the house always wins. This is a huge, huge story. I would argue maybe even the biggest story in sports overall in the last 25 years or so. I have patients who gamble in the shower. I have patients who gamble before they get out of bed in the morning. I have patients who gamble while they are driving. There are no guardrails. Over its history, 60 Minutes has reported nearly two dozen stories on gambling.

And as we dug through them, one stood out, an almost 50-year-old cautionary tale. 60 Minutes, especially in 76 and 86, it exposed gambling like it had never been exposed up until that time. And it exposed what was a very personal story for you, for your family. It's still a personal story that's close to my heart because I'm sort of reliving it through your podcast. This is 60 Minutes, A Second Look. I'm Seth Doan. Today, the risky odds of a gambling addiction. I'm thinking if this guy knew that all he had to do

was reach into his pocket and get that same dopamine rush, holy hell would we be in a lot of trouble. About 40 million people in this country regularly gamble. A little or a lot. In 1976, Dan Rather reported a story about people who gambled, but not just those who sometimes went out and bought a lottery ticket or who occasionally put down money on a horse race. He was interested in the people who gambled a lot.

The psychiatric community can't precisely define what makes a compulsive gambler, but certain factors contribute. Psychologically, we're told, the addiction to gambling is similar to the addiction to alcohol. When that first segment aired, people are sort of looking around the room going, gambling? Like, that's not drug addiction. That's not alcoholism. This is Larry North. He spent much of his life as an advocate for gambling awareness. That's not being addicted to sex. Like, this is gambling. Like, what's the big deal? That's interesting. You're saying when this first story aired in the 70s, this concept of gambling being an addiction was relatively new. People didn't think about it. Back in 76, that was certainly the case because it wasn't exposed. Unless you really were in a relationship or in a family that had a degenerate gambler in it, you really didn't know much. And then also, too, even if you did,

being broke seemed like the worst thing that could happen. And that's not the truth. In Dan Rather's story, he introduced viewers to a Long Island man who represented the most extreme side of compulsive gambling. Irving has been gambling for 30 years, though he's only 44 years old. Now he's completely broke and feels he has no life ahead of him unless he can stop his addiction. I really become, as I'm in my own terms of language, degenerate. Irving bets on the horses and often takes his 15-year-old son Larry with him. For a start, Irving has put $10 on a horse. We got him. I told you, we got him. We got the winner. I told you we got him, kid. Not only did I go on the racetrack with my dad, he took me everywhere. He took me to the bookmakers. He took me to the loan sharks.

Yes, Larry North is Irving North's son. My dad was such a polarizing character that he almost gobbled up the entire segment. I just watched you. Yeah, that's 47 years ago. Yeah, your hair is now closely cut. It was quite big. Yeah, I had more hair back then. Larry's now in his early 60s, and his hair isn't the only thing about his appearance

that's changed. I can tell from Zoom that you're in the fitness industry. You're in good shape. Yeah, thank you very much. He's kind of a local celebrity in Dallas. He's built a career around fitness and health. I wrote books. I was on radio.

I did a TV show. I did a global infomercial that was sensational and did a lot of revenue. Now is the time to stop suffering and start eating your way to a beautiful body. And you're the president of the Texas Council on Problem and Compulsive Gambling. What's that? I founded this organization and I served as its president for about seven years. It certified counselors to be able to counsel people that had an addictive problem with gambling. Back in 1976, when 60 Minutes came to profile his father,

Dan Rather spoke with Larry when he was just a lean 15-year-old kid. I went to the track many times with him. I enjoyed myself many times too. But now to the point, instead of rooting for the horses to win, I was rooting for him to not have money so he wouldn't go and bet. Your dad was clearly struggling with something that was probably pretty stigmatized. Why do you think your parents allowed 60 Minutes to document it all for national TV? That's a great question. If I look back at where was the peak of the madness in my life and in my father's life and in my family's life, which happened to be right about that time.

We want to play a clip for you. At one point, your father shows the 60 Minutes producers bedding slips, a huge box of them. He pours them out on the table. These are all racetrack losing tickets for a period of about 10 months plus. They total up to be about a half a million dollars worth of tickets for a 10-month period. And the producer turns to your mom, kind of incredulously, and asks about her role in all of this. You must have tried to make him stop over the years. How?

Ranting, raving, pleading, running away, leaving him, threatening him. How is it to listen to that clip today? It's not easy, to tell you the truth. I got emotional watching it because it just brings back so many memories. My mom's not exaggerating at all. I mean, we had needs and things as a child, and it didn't matter. My dad just, I mean, I would come home sometimes from school. I'd open up the door.

There's no furniture in our freaking house. Where'd all the furniture go? Well, my dad sold it to get money to gamble with. My mom would wake up one day, her car is gone. He sold it to get money to gamble with. I mean, he really was a sick gambler. It seems so extreme. It seems kind of unbelievable.

Yeah, he was a pretty extreme guy. In the early 1970s, before Dan Rather came to town, Irving North's addiction had gotten him into some trouble with the law. I've recently spent time in a federal prison because of swindling banks for over $140,000. $140,000. That's the equivalent of three quarters of a million dollars today. Which every dime went to the racetrack and bookmakers. It's not that I was really a criminal at heart.

It just came out that I was, my great desire to gamble. Larry says that after his dad spent around seven months in a minimum security prison, he was let out on probation. But when his probation officer spotted him at a racetrack on Long Island, Irving North was back in front of a judge. My dad used his compulsive gambling as to why he was committing crimes. Now, in the 1970s, that's somewhat of a new thing. So the judge reduced his sentence, but said, Irv, we're going to require you to go to treatment as well as go to Gamblers Anonymous meetings as part of the sentencing. I've decided

that if I'm going to continue living and remaining with my family, I just got to stop this. At the time, if you wanted comprehensive treatment, there was really only one place you could go. The Compulsive Gambling Treatment Program at the Veterans Administration Hospital in Brecksville, Ohio. And the hospital let 60 Minutes cameras inside. He got a complete physical examination and then had his first encounter with his psychologist, Dr. Alita Glenn. Right now, why don't you tell me a little bit about when you started to gamble? When I was 17 years old, I remember winning and betting baseball and basketball. I remember winning about $5,000. Coming from a poor neighborhood, that was a lot of money.

At the end of Dan Rather's 1976 story, he asked Irving North if he thought that the treatment program would work. I'll give it, as I said, the old college shot. I want to give it a shot, really, and see what happens. Because the one thing I don't want to do is ever have to go back to prison again. And I don't like being dishonest and doing things that could wind me back up in prison. Irving North, you've had a lot of experience with odds. Book the odds on your ability to whip it. It's a long shot.

It's real surreal watching it now. He's looking in that camera, and he's saying it's a long shot, and the one thing I don't want to do is go back to prison. And unbeknown to your producers at that time, and Dan rather, my dad was teaching the other six men in that treatment program in Brexwell, Ohio, how to swindle banks. And they would sneak out of that treatment facility at night and go gambling. You didn't know all of that when you were watching the piece. Do you remember when the story aired?

Do you remember what you were thinking when you watched that back all those years ago? Am I allowed to say the S word on a podcast? I forget. Sure. I think we have, I think we have more liberty in a podcast. Yeah. Yeah. I knew he was full of shit. When we come back, gambling addiction is recognized by the medical establishment and another compulsive gambler falls from grace. Pete Rose, undisputably one of the greatest players ever to put on a uniform, and in his own way, still one of the game's most passionate spokesmen, even though the game wants nothing to do with him. Wendy's most important deal of the day has a fresh lineup. Pick any two breakfast items for $4.

New four-piece French toast sticks, bacon or sausage wrap, biscuit or English muffin sandwiches, small hot coffee, and more. Limited time only at participating Wendy's Taxes Extra. Ten years ago, Dan Rather did a story for 60 Minutes about compulsive gambling. He went to a racetrack with a gambler named Irving North and North's 15-year-old son, Larry. In 1986, correspondent Harry Reisner picked up where Dan Rather left off. We thought it would be a good idea to look up Irving North, see how he's getting along. We found him.

At this point in the story, the camera zoomed out from a close-up shot of Reasoner to a much wider shot so you could see where he was standing. He was in front of a sign that read, Federal Bureau of Prisons. North has spent more than six of the ten years in prison for passing bad checks and parole violations. Are you a compulsive gambler? Well, I would say I am, yes. There's no question about it. The only thing that had changed about Irving North was that he had dropped all pretenses of seeking recovery.

Gambling, as far as I'm concerned, is one of the two great thrills of life. The other, of course, being sex. And when something is thrilling, you're not going to stop. Though Irving North had returned to his old ways, the rest of the family had made big moves since the first story was broadcast. My mom, in a move of desperation, wanted to get away from him. This is Larry North again.

We basically snuck away and we headed to Las Vegas, of all places. Why? Because my dad was banned from Vegas in the 70s. So we felt safe there. We get there. And my mom just in a panic after one night there says, you've got to pack the boys up, pack the car. We've got to get out of here. She goes, I'm not raising my children in their father's temple. It's interesting. Even all these years later, when you speak, you speak with an intensity. It clearly still touches you. Yeah, it is. You know, it was such an abnormal upbringing. Larry North was also interviewed for this story.

This is You Wanna Bet? Hammer roll one, sound roll one, sound take one. In this outtake, a 26-year-old Larry sat across from Harry Reisner in a loose flannel shirt with his hands sort of folded in his lap. How long since you've seen your father? It's been about a year. How long since you and he were close?

Real close, it's been about 10 years. What would happen if your father came back and said look I'm cured I want to come back to the family I would not allow him to come back to our family you wouldn't believe it if he was he said he was cured once allow him to come back into my life I would just fine I don't think he he looks I don't think he would say that because I don't think he thinks he said he doesn't think he has a problem compulsive gamblers don't think he would say that because I don't think he thinks he's sick. He doesn't think he has a problem. Compulsive gamblers don't normally put on lampshades at parties

or get into drunken fights in bars, and they don't snort cocaine to keep their creative juices flowing. But the people who know are now sure they are responding to exactly the same pressures as addicts of alcohol or other drugs. The reason 60 Minutes revisited Irving North's story was because the medical establishment was beginning to recognize that compulsive gambling was, like other addictions, a real illness. Now that compulsive gambling, like alcoholism, has been officially listed as a psychiatric illness,

hospitals have begun to treat it. In some cases, the treatment is paid for by medical insurance. Dr. Robert Custer started the first treatment program for gamblers in 1972. If you lassoed 100 people at a track or in a casino and talked to them, could you tell, are there signs of which ones are compulsive? I couldn't tell by their appearance. I really couldn't. But if I could give them a survey which they'd answer honestly,

I'd pick out the five out of the hundred that are compulsive gamblers there. Dr. Custer had been the director of the alcoholism treatment program at the Veterans Hospital in Brecksville when a handful of men from Gamblers Anonymous asked him to develop a program for compulsive gambling, like the one that he ran for alcoholics. This guy really, as far as I'm concerned, was a pioneer because he understood what gambling could do to the person and to the families

and to anyone that they come in contact with. Dr. Custer successfully pushed for pathological gambling to be recognized in the third edition of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders. You wrote the definition of a compulsive gambler? Right. What was it? Well, essentially what it boiled down to is that gambling either affects or compromises, disrupts their lives

and the family, vocational and personal areas, and eventually leads to the point they can't function. Has that definition or description stood up? Oh, I think so. When this story was broadcast, Irving North was hardly the only man betting on sports and dealing with the dire consequences. In 1989, he was convicted, at least in the court of public opinion and in the mind of the late baseball commissioner Bart Giamatti, of committing the sports cardinal sin, betting on baseball while he was the manager of the Cincinnati Reds.

Rose admitted making illegal bets on football and hanging out with gamblers and bookies. He agreed to a lifetime suspension, but he denied betting on baseball then, and he still does. Baseball legend Pete Rose died in September. Here he is speaking with Steve Croft in 1995. There are a lot of people that think you're not going to get reinstated. There's a lot of people that think you're not going to get reinstated. There's a lot of people unless you admit that you bet on baseball. Well, you know, forget about it then. I won't get reinstated. It's not going to be the end of my life.

Steve, I've had reputable writers tell me, even if you didn't, admit you did, and don't forget about it. It's ridiculous. How can anybody with integrity say that to me? Do you believe he bet on baseball? Yeah, I do. Croft also interviewed sports writer Mike Lupica. Listen to the term he uses when describing Rose's behavior. Why does he continue to deny it, do you think? Because addicts

do that. I think that Pete thinks at this point in his life there's nothing to be gained. But I said, yeah, I did it. Please forgive me. You still gamble? I gamble legally. I'd be lying if I told you I didn't because everybody in the world knows I go to the Kentucky Derby every year.

Pete Rose's lifetime ban was never lifted, nor was he ever inducted into the Baseball Hall of Fame. He spent his later years in relative exile from the baseball establishment, and when he died in September at the age of 83, his many obituaries highlighted his destructive gambling habit alongside his accomplishments. Larry North knows a little something about how a gambling addiction can eclipse everything else in a person's life. My dad, even his end of life moments still revolved around some sort of wagering or gambling or money. At the end of his life, as Irving North was dying from bone cancer, the North family reestablished contact with him.

Larry remembers getting that call to say goodbye. So I got in my car. I get down there, and he's unconscious. And I grab his hand. And I don't even know everything that I said, except the last thing I said. I said, I forgive you. I forgive you. And I'm sorry things worked out the way they did. But I hope wherever you go, that you'll have some form of joy that you never experienced in this life. And I turn around and the nurse is just in tears. And she goes, Larry, I'm so sorry.

I just couldn't interrupt you and tell you that your dad had died 30 minutes earlier. And I said to her, I said, you know, I didn't really do that so much for him as I did it for me, because I just don't want to keep that anger in my body and in my system. I wanted to let it go. In the end, you forgave him. I wonder if he knew that you forgave him. You know, I think if there's an afterlife, his ass got stuck in purgatory until he figured that out. Irving North died over 30 years ago. He was 63, the very same age Larry was when we spoke with him.

He never hit the jackpot, but toward the end of his life, he did place one last bet. Two days before my dad died, I would go up to that hospital and I would talk to him and he'd say, yeah, kid, kid, kid, you know what? Gambling is going to be the biggest thing ever. It's going to be the biggest industry in the world someday. He believed that there were going to be millions of people following his lead as like a Pied Piper of some sort that are going to want to have that thirst for gambling. Coming up on 60 Minutes, A Second Look, how those words proved prophetic

and how technology is supercharging gambling addictions. The dam burst and all of a sudden it is every bit as much a part of the sports culture as, you know, your foam fingers and tailgate. What's better than a well-marbled ribeye sizzling on the barbecue? A well-marbled ribeye sizzling on the barbecue that was carefully selected by an Instacart shopper and delivered to your door. A well-marbled ribeye you ordered without even leaving the kiddie pool. Whatever groceries your summer calls for, Instacart has you covered. Download the Instacart app and enjoy $0 delivery fees on your first three orders.

Service fees, exclusions, and terms apply. Instacart. Groceries that over-deliver. You're rolling on your side, John. We should be good. Cool, perfect. Will you, John,

just give me a quick self-introduction? I'm John Wertheim, correspondent at 60 Minutes and longtime sports reporter and writer at Sports Illustrated. I did a story for 60 Minutes earlier this year on this proliferation of sports gambling. Correspondent John Wertheim has covered sports betting twice for 60 Minutes in 2019 and 2024. This is really one of the overarching sports stories of our time. It's not sexy. There's not a trophy. It's not Super Bowls and winners and 2024. This is really one of the overarching sports stories of our time. It's not sexy. There's not a trophy.

It's not Super Bowls and winners and losers. But in terms of sports as a sector, sports as an industry, this is a huge, huge story. I would argue maybe even the biggest story in sports overall in the last 25 years or so. In your 2019 story of a line, it hasn't happened overnight, but gambling, long seen as a vice kept at arm's length, is now embraced in popular culture. And that's something we've only seen become more and more true as time has gone on. There was such a stigma attached to gambling and you can have fun with your buddies and do it in Vegas. But otherwise, it was sort of sub rosa and maybe there was a bookie. Now, it's taking out your phone. It's easy and there's zero shame. Now, it's just as much a part of the

sports experience as wearing the jersey of your favorite player. We're talking about what the reality is today. Let's look back. We've been exploring a time period in which gambling was commonplace, but largely illegal. That remained the status quo until recently. What exactly happened? No, you sort of had this healthy culture of bookies and sports gamblers, and people would go to Vegas, and then technology entered. And it really became so much easier to place a bet on a sporting event. And you had fantasy leagues, which were sort of this gateway drug. And you sort of had this creep where gambling became more and more part of the sports fabric. Again, there's a lot of money at play here. Going to Vegas or joining a sports fantasy league were,

of course, legal. But the internet made illegal sports gambling a lot easier too. And in the 2000s and early 2010s, that meant there was a lot of money going around, but not to the professional sports leagues. And surprise, surprise, they noticed. Adam Silver wrote this op-ed to the New York Times in 2014. He was recently appointed commissioner of the NBA. He had been in sports a long time. He had legitimacy. And I think that really, we will look back as a turning point. And he sort of said, look, guys, what are we doing? Gambling is going on anyway. It's getting easier and easier to do it. It's no match for technology. Why don't we change our views on this? Admit that it's part of the experience, part of the engagement of being a sports fan. Let's own this. Let's get out in front of this. He sort of has

said, listen, sunlight is disinfectant. Wouldn't it be more sense. Let's get out in front of this. He sort of has said, listen, sunlight is disinfectant. Wouldn't it be more sense to do this legitimately out in the open? Just as the sporting establishment started to shift its attitude toward gambling, the Supreme Court made it all easier. Technology's changed things and the regulatory landscape has changed. Laws have changed. Tell me about this 2018 Supreme Court decision. Yeah. And from the early 90s, there was PASFA, the Professional and Amateur Sports Protection Act. And it basically had a few carve outs. But for all intents, it's sort of you cannot place wagers on sports unless you're in Las Vegas. And states chipped away at that. New Jersey was driving the bus here. And in 2018, this decision, the Supreme Court 6-3 decision, essentially overturned PASPA and said, look, it's up to you, states. Now we're in a completely different era. Wertheim observed the change himself. Right after New Jersey legalized sports betting, but before New York did, he noticed people taking the ferry from Manhattan to New Jersey simply to bet. They would end up in sort of New Jersey, lay down their bet, and then come back to work in Manhattan. And what tends to happen, we see this with casinos in general, we see this with other products,

there's a sense of, listen, why are we giving up this revenue? If we're in New York State and people are crossing a river to place down a bet, why aren't we getting some of this revenue? So we've had this domino effect. And as we speak now, Seth, I think we're up to 38 states plus Washington, D.C., and the numbers are really vague. And in some places, you'll see more than $100 billion wagered on sports, and other places will have 130. I mean, the numbers are all over the map. This is really the Wild West. But what convinced John Wertheim that he should look into the industry yet again was not just the profits and growth.

What really struck home was my assistant, who's in her early 20s, is not a big sports fan. She said, we ought to do a story on sports gambling. And I said, well, why do you say that? I agree wholeheartedly, but I'm curious. You're not a sports fan. Why would you say that? She said, everyone in my social circle, every guy I know, I go to a party and everyone's checking their phone. I mean, I'm bombarded by this. And again, I sit at the DraftKings desk when I do broadcast. DraftKings, an online sports gambling company, sponsors a large advertisement on the desk where John Wertheim sits at his other job as a commentator on the tennis channel. I'm in the thick of this, but to hear my assistant, who's not even a sports fan, recognize how much this had become part of the culture, part of her culture, part of her social settings. Again, go to a party and all the guys are staring to see if the hockey game ended because

they put money in action. That really, to me, was resonant about how widespread this was. And there's something going on here that goes way beyond a bunch of hardcore sports fans and position papers. For decades, leagues feared gambling would corrupt competition. So far, that crisis hasn't happened. But the last five years have given rise to a surge in young gambling addicts. Joe Russillo, now 26, says his problem started in high school. Then in 2022, sports betting apps came to his home state of New York. I am a sports fan, but as the years grew on,

you become less interested in the game itself and more interested in the result. And who needs a bookie when a fresh bet is just a swipe away? You know, you can wake up in the middle of the night, take your phone out, set an alarm for a match, maybe overseas or something like that. I would place a bet on anything, anywhere, at any time. At this point in the interview, you see Joe Rusillo as he pulled out a flip phone and showed it to Wertheim. This is the phone I use on a daily basis.

You can't gamble on this phone. Not too many apps on that phone, huh? No. I think people who aren't familiar might think of the typical gambling addict as the middle-aged guy in a windbreaker who's betting his retirement savings. It's more prominent in the younger generation,

I think, than ever. Awareness of gambling addiction has risen since the 70s and 80s. But as John Wertheim pointed out, in some ways the path to recovery is ever more challenging. It's really hard to stop. You can't really say get a flip phone for a lot of things. I mean, so much of our life revolves around mobile technology. We all fight with this, right?

I mean, I'm not in my early 20s, but I struggle with phone addiction. We all know about that. And then you layer on top of that, the addictive practice of sports gambling within the phone. It sort of has this multiplier effect. But if the solution to all this is just get off mobile technology, I'm not sure how effective that's going to be. Why do you think Rosillo talked to you? Talked for 60 minutes. I think some of this was probably part of his therapy and his rehabilitation. But I also think he's angry. I think he sees how sports gambling is portrayed on these league-sponsored broadcasts.

And I don't think it made the piece, but there was really a level of anger. It did not make John Wertheim's original story, but in outtakes, you can hear Russillo's frustration. If you've seen all the commercials since it's become legal, they're making it cool to gamble. They're making celebrities tell you in the commercials that it's cool to gamble and they're letting off all these fireworks and they're giving you all this free money to gamble with. It is not cool to gamble. It is a vice. It is like cigarettes.

It is like alcohol. It should be taboo. It's kind of sick if you really think about it that they're making all these people excited to wager and risk their money. And that's what really bothers me the most. But it's not just TV advertising that reels in young men. Wertheim spoke with one leading gambler reformer in the United Kingdom who told him that the sports betting apps had highly advanced methods of keeping the money flowing.

Matt Zarb-Cousin was able to use British data to offer insight into something we do not have numbers for in the United States. Recently, Zarb-Cousin was able to use Britain's public information laws to access data the betting company Flutter, owner of FanDuel, had on a UK customer. That data was used to tailor offers and push notifications to keep the guy in action. Where'd you learn?

So about 93 different data points they had on this individual were when they bet, what offers worked, what inducements worked. On this particular one, he played slots for three to four days straight. They knew the life stage, the customer life stage he was at. So win back, they described it. So people that have given up gambling for a while and they're trying to get them to come back. There's also like 2,514 deposits in a year, which is about seven a day. So these gambling companies that know when we're most impetuous, that has reams and reams

of data on us, what kind of matches that for the adolescent male? It's not a fair, exactly, it's not a fair wager. Do they have enough data to pinpoint potential problem gamblers? Oh, without a doubt. Yeah, they know the people that are addicted. 60 Minutes tried to speak with representatives from the betting companies to see where they stood on all of this, but to no avail. Flutter insisted to us that the company does take steps

to protect their term vulnerable customers, sometimes banning them outright. The two largest sportsbooks in the U.S., DraftKings and FanDuel, said the same, though declined to provide specific instances when they've done so. We had arranged to speak to DraftKings about all this, but abruptly they pulled out of our scheduled on-camera interview. So we came to Washington, D.C. to meet Bill Miller, president of the gambling industry's chief trade group, the American Gaming Association. There is problem gambling. It is a real problem.

Whether it's gotten bigger or it's just become more noticeable because sports betting is legal, I think is an unknown. Really? My view absolutely is we need to make sure that we are giving people the resources they need to mitigate this issue. Yet, given all the high tech designed to get gamblers onto the sportsbook, for those seeking to quit, they're often directed to a glaringly old-school solution, a 1-800 number. You mentioned this 1-800 number in your 2024 story.

You call it a glaringly old-school solution. Have there been more modern guardrails that have been proposed? There have been sort of suggestions that these gambling companies are more aggressive, spotting problem gamblers. But you have this collective action problem where unless they all agree to do it, it's just going to mean more business for the competitor. So nobody has really taken the first step. Some states are much better than others in recognizing problem gambling or earmarking funds. But again, it's very much state by state and a new legislature could change that. I think one thing that's really enabled this to grow so quickly is that there isn't overarching regulation. There's not federal regulation.

Right now, we're very much in the Wild West stage. The infrastructure was not prepared to deal with everything this has wrought. The same way, eventually, we said, hey, listen, camel cigarettes, you can't have a cartoon Joe Camel, and you can't have vending machines in high schools. And eventually, we had some sensible regulation and legislation. I think we're at that phase now with sports gambling. In September, two members of Congress introduced new legislation that would put federal restrictions on how bets can be placed and how gambling can be advertised. Ahead of this conversation, we asked you to take a look at a couple of pieces, a couple of stories that 60 Minutes had done. I wonder how, as you looked back at those older stories

that had been done on 60 Minutes and sports gambling, what you thought, what your takeaway was. Yeah, these are stories of gambling addicts who basically have lost everything, mostly at the racetrack. I saw Dan Rather with a classic 1970s gambler at the racetrack who put too much money into the fourth race at Belmont. And I'm thinking, holy hell, if this guy knew that all he had to do was reach into his pocket and get that same dopamine rush and feed that addiction, holy hell, would we be in a lot of trouble. Meaning for as bad as it was then, it is potentially much worse today. Exactly.

60 Minutes had done stories before yours. You've now done a couple of stories for 60 Minutes on sports gambling. Do you think there will be more? I do think there will be more because I think this is a very fundamental urge, right? But I do think we're going to look back at this and say, wait a second. The same way we laugh now when we hear about cigarette vending machines on school grounds. And I think we're going to look back and say, how did we allow this to flourish? So no, I do not think this is the last story we are going to be doing about gambling. Do you think that 60 Minutes continuing coverage of gambling

and the problem with addiction has had any sort of impact? No question. I really do. This is Larry North again. I mean, 60 Minutes, especially in 76 and 86, it exposed gambling like it had never been exposed up until that time. I happen to know some of the behind the scenes people that have been involved with helping gamblers. And it's had a tremendous impact because basically it exposed it for the harm that it can cause to people. So a definitive yes.

When one of the producers of this series, Jamie Benson, reached out to you to see if you might be interested in speaking with us for this episode, you told him you'd actually already reached out to 60 Minutes yourself years ago. What prompted you to do that? I wanted them to know that there's hope for people. You know, the feeling of hopelessness is feeling that there's no solution to your problem. And I just wanted to be able to show, hey, you know, that was Irv's life,

but I didn't have to follow in his footsteps, that there was hope, there is a way out. This episode of 60 Minutes, A Second Look was co-produced by Hazel May Bryan and Jamie Benson. Additional producing from Julie Holstein. Maura Walls is our story editor. Our fact checker is Annie Cronenberg. Recording assistants from Alan Pang and Marlon Polycarp. Bill Owens is the executive producer of 60 Minutes. Tanya Simon is the executive editor.

And Matthew Polivoy is the senior producer. Invaluable support from Megan Marcus and Steve Rases of Paramount Audio. Igor Organesov produced the original 1976 broadcast story for 60 Minutes titled Don't Bet On It. Drew Phillips produced the original 1986 broadcast story, It's a Gamble. Rome Hartman and Sarah Kuzmaroff produced the 2019 story, All Bets Are On. And David M. Levine produced the 2024 story, The Mismatch. Thanks also to the crews and editors of the original pieces. Special thanks to the team at KRLD Radio in Dallas and to Dr. Heather Chapman. And as always, a very big thanks to the incredible team at CBS News Archives,

who helped make this podcast possible. I'm Seth Doan. We'll be back next week with another episode of 60 Minutes, A Second Look. In the meantime, please leave us a rating and a review. It helps more people discover our show. And thanks so much for listening.