60 Songs That Explain the '90s - "A Roller Skating Jam Named ‘Saturdays'"—De La Soul

Episode Date: February 22, 2023

Rob dives into De La Soul’s least favorite song to perform, the impact of the rap group, Trugoy the Dove’s passing, and more when looking back at “A Roller Skating Jam Named ‘Saturdays’” with some assistance from Open Mike Eagle on the back end. Host: Rob Harvilla  Guest: Open Mike Eagle Producers: Jonathan Kermah and Justin Sayles Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

When you're lost in the darkness, look for the pod. Specifically, the Prestige TV podcast on the Ringer Podcast Network, where we're breaking down every new episode of HBO's The Last of Us. On Sunday nights, grab your battery and join Van Lathen and Charles Holmes for an instant reaction to the latest episode. Then head back to the QZ on Tuesdays for a deep dive with Joanna Robinson and Mallory Rubin. From character arcs to video game adaptation choices, story themes to needle drops, we'll parse every inch of this cordyceps-coded universe.

Watch out for mouth tendrils and follow along on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. Yo, just a quick note to say that this is the 90th episode of 60 songs that explain the 90s, but incredibly somehow not the last. We're going to take a break for a couple months, but we will return promptly on May 3rd, 2023 and do 30 more songs and then stop. Honest. This is the last episode for a while, but we'll miss you very much.

and we'll be back soon. Thanks. They hate it. You probably love it, but they hate it. Always did. They were told to make it. They hated being told to make it. They hated making it.

They hated it. They performed it live for 30 plus years. They especially hate performing it live. And very often they tell you they hate performing it while performing it. Is y'all going to do the one? The one just to get it off. with the one I can't stand but that everybody's digging just do it to get it over with the shit we hate the shit we hate they don't hate you for loving it nothing personal they don't take your

love of the thing they made that they hate personal you shouldn't take their hate of the thing they made that you love personal if they hated you for loving the thing they made that they hate they wouldn't have spent 30 plus years performing it they love you or at the very least they love that you love them. But if they're going to give you the thing you love, they're damn sure going to clarify to you that they don't love it. We hate this song. We hate this song. We hate this song. For them, it's 10,000 times worse. I have to imagine that the thing they made that they hate makes them, or at least breaks them, right? I mean, breaks them as in gives them their big break, not breaks them.

and destroys them, though that's a subtle distinction. Put it this way, in this particular case, this was the first thing they made that millions of people loved. And they love, love, and they love being loved by millions. But this, specifically being the trigger, being their breakout song, being the gateway drug, being the impetus for all that love, for millions of people who will always love them,

well, that only makes them hated all the more. more. There is genuine anger, or at least acute exasperation being conveyed here, but also that's very funny. Come on, everybody, let's love this song. That's funny. It is May 13th, 1996, and first of all, that's my birthday. That's my 18th birthday. Wow. Shit. Awesome. Happy birthday to me. Wait a minute. A couple other websites say that actually it is May 16th, 1996. Damn it. Fuck, that's three days after my birthday. That's nowhere near as awesome.

God bless it. It is May 1996. And the loved by millions Long Island rap trio De La Sol are performing live at a club called Tramps in New York City in Manhattan near Madison Square Park. And I'm not there. Sorry, I just turned 18. And I live in fucking Ohio, and I'm uncool. I'm at like Pizza Hut or something. But De La Sol are on stage at Trance.

They got friends, special guests along with them, the Jungle Brothers, Mo's Deaf, Common. And as they've now informed their delighted audience are great many times, they're playing the shit they hate. Yeah, okay. All right, we got it. De La Sol in this moment are already three albums deep

into one of the most venerated and cataclysmic runs in rap history with their fourth album, Stakes is High, also venerated, also cataclysmic, due out in just a couple months in July 96. They're already veterans, their icons, their rap pantheon material, their gods, angry gods, perhaps, or at the very least exasperated gods in this moment as they grudgingly perform, They're loved by millions and hated by them. Breakout single, Me, Myself, and I. From their debut album and their most kind of chasmic and venerated album, 1989's Three Feet High and Rising.

I'm not at Pizza Hut as this is occurring, or three days before this occurs. I wouldn't go to Pizza Hut on my birthday. Of course not. I just said that because it sounded funny to me to say Pizza Hut. Just to clarify. that shit. Sing it. It's just me myself and.

It's just me myself and. Check it out. What? Yeah. Is it all so funny that the delighted crowd at Tramps is about to sing that shit after they've been sardonically instructed to sing that shit by the guys who repeatedly announce that they hate

that shit? It's a little funny. Sure. But not bitterly angrily funny. De La Sol member David Jalakor a.k.k.a. Dave. aka Truigoy the Dove, aka Plug 2. Going through the group's biggest and best songs with Vive in 2014, Dave says,

We hated the song, but it's the gift and the curse. We felt like there were so many other songs that were 100 times better than that. But you respect it for what it is. At the end of the day, people love the song, and what more can you ask for? although it was pretty much bullshit. End quote. Nevertheless, sing that bullshit.

Sing that shit. It's just me, myself and. Check it out. What? Yeah. That's so fun. That's funny. That's very funny.

We discuss on this show from time to time the notion of the hit song as albatross, right? artists who outgrow or resent or otherwise just get totally sick of their own hit songs. The Beastie Boys very much outgrew. You got to fight for your right to party. Warrant had a couple hits already, but very much grew to resent. The embarrassing what's wrong with being sexiness of Cherry Pie. Radiohead, of course, has an uneasy relationship with creep. I always think of Beck and Loser, though that's a little squirrely.

That's maybe just a testament to how sprawling Beck's catalog got. stylistically thereafter smells like teen spirit qualifies for this also i think i just read that heart the stupendous classic rock band heart really don't like all i want to do is make love to you which bummed me out kind of that's from 1990 and heart were already super famous by then but anne wilson from heart in 2017 she called that song an empty weird sort of hateful story end quote which you know the gist of this song is just i picked up a dude hitchhiker we boned so to speak we parted ways we met up years later and i had a baby or a little kid with me and the dude hitchhiker realized it was his kid and he had no idea i heard this song for the first time on the radio

in the car with my mother and i do not recommend that scenario my mom got so mad at the, you know, moral dimension of all I want to do is make loved you. I'm like 12 at this point. We're driving the church, right? Or perhaps a pizza hut. And this is not a sentiment. She'd like me to absorb. My mom and Anne Wilson are apparently aligned on this point.

Did you know that Mut-Lang of Def Leopard and ACDC and Chenaya Twain fame? Mutt-Lang wrote, All I want to do is make love to you? Did you know that a real thing? Did you know that originally he wanted Don Henley to sing it? Yo, I love Don Henley, truly. And don't tell Anne Wilson or my mom, but I still really did. All I want to do is make love to you.

But no way do I want to hear Don Henley express that particular sentiment, right? We dodged a bullet there, I think, as a society. Sorry, nonetheless, upon reflection, I feel comfortable stating that no musical artist in recorded history has hated his or her or their breakout hit song, more than De La Sol hates this shit. Proud, I'm proud of what I am. Poems I speak are plug too tight. Please, oh, please let plug to be himself, not what you read, all right. And this is Dave rapping, and it's 20,000 times worse, I have. to imagine that me, myself, and I is ostensibly a song about celebrating and respecting De La

Souls'Ole's individuality and autonomy, right? They wear what they want to wear, they do what they want to do, they're being who they want to be. Please, oh, please, let Plug 2 be himself verbatim. And yet, this is the song they were coerced into doing. This is classic record label, I don't hear a single shit. Dave, talking to Rolling Stone, just this year, he says, Me, myself, and I was almost like a punishment. It's typical. The label comes and says, hey, we need one more, but we need something poppy and something familiar. End quote. So yeah, De La Sol are informed they need one more song for their debut album. And so for a foundation, they seize upon Knee Deep by Funkadelic from 1977, which is not the poppiest or most

familiar song seized upon on the notoriously and gloriously sample heavy three feet high and rising, but sampling George Clinton is perhaps a more conventional move for a rap group in 1989, compared to all the other quite audacious moves De La Sol are making. Great song, though, knee deep, if you need me, to tell you that, which you don't. And then De La Sol borrow the rhyme pattern from a song called Black is Black by their fellow fantastic New York City rap group of the Jungle Brothers from the first Jungle Brothers album, straight out the jungle

in 1988. Black is Black also features Q-Tip from a tribe called Quest. And here we're seeing an early example of the revered Native Tongues movement, the loose hip-hop collective of De LaSoul, Tribe, Jungle Brothers, Queen Latifah, Blacksheet,

Mone Love, and a few others. And we're getting ahead of ourselves, but ecstatically getting ahead of ourselves, was sort of the whole deal with the Native tongues, so why don't we just let Q-Tip cook? But cut today, I have to regret to say something, something is not right and it deals with black. Why don't we let Africa Baby Bam from the Jungle Brothers cook as well while we're at it?

Black is black as black as black. Judge by both my race and color, don't you know we need each other, I need you and you need me, and if not now you soon we'll see. rad song, it's embarrassing me saying let him cook with regard to famous rappers. I am aware of that. But insofar as de la soul are embarrassed at all by me, myself and I, let's just say I'm politely trying to divert some portion of their embarrassment onto myself. It's quite noble of me, really. Me, myself and I fuses a funkadelic, a George Clinton sample to a Jungle Brothers and Q-tip rhyme cadence. These are rad ingredients, expertly combined by De LaSoul and their producer, the great Prince Paul, to make a rad song. In no universe in 1989 or any other year, could you plausibly denounce this song as some cheesy lowest common denominator pop crossover sellout move?

That's ridiculous. But me, myself, and I was not De LaSoul's idea. And it wasn't exactly what De LaSoul wanted to do. And for a group already radiating such vibrance and individuality and autonomy, that was enough to make De LaSoul in concert chant we hate this song seven times before performing the fucking song. Proud, I'm proud of what I am. Poems I speak the plug to tight. Please, oh please let Plug to be himself, not what you read, all right. That's De LaSoul's own Kelvin Mercer, aka Posdenous, aka Plug One, explicitly shouting out his lyrical inspiration for me and myself and I, a song he dislikes in part because it helped

make him famous. De LaSoul's debut album Three Feet High and Rising comes out in March 1989 on Tommy Boy Records, and the album unexpectedly blows up. It'll eventually sell a million copies in the United States alone, and it'll rightly be included on every best hip-hop albums of all time list that you read for the rest of your life. And me, myself, and I serves its purpose and hits MTV and the radio, despite the fact that De La Sol purposely bury it at Track 20 on the record. Unofficially, I'm comfortable stating that Track 20 is the deepest any breakout hit has ever

been buried on anybody's debut record. That's hilarious. Track 20 is a hilarious number. to me. Three feet high and rising, in fact, will be declared the very best album of 1989 in the Village Voices prestigious year-end Pazenjop critics poll, the definitive annual worldwide survey of rock critics. For your reference, per Pazenjop, the very best album of 1988, was Public Enemies, it takes a nation of millions to hold us back. For your reference, the other rap records that make the 1989 Pazenjop top 40, along with, but below three, feet high and rising include in ascending order all hail the queen by queen latifa done by the forces of nature by the jungle brothers ghetto music the blueprint of hip hop by boogie down productions paul's boutique by the beastie boys and ah yes at number six straight out of compton by n w a don henley's the end of the innocence is in there somewhere as well love you don and so we moved triumphantly into the

1990s and De La Sol are established and revered young stars and it's time to make their second album capitalizing on all this popularity and reverence and critical acclaim. And indeed, De LaSoul's second album is released in 1991 and they give their second album a title worthy of the triumph of this moment. And now we begin our exciting adventure of De La Sol is dead. Uh-oh, De LaSoul's sophomore album released on May 14th, 1991. That's the day after my birthday. That's pretty awesome. It's entitled, De La Sol is Dead. They got some issues, it would appear. De La Sol. Some issues with their image, with their previous album cover and photoshoot imagery, some issues with their reputation and with the expectations created very much against their will by their breakout song, which they

hate. De La Sol is Dead is a troubled out. A dark album, a mean album, some would say, a deeply conflicted and confrontational album. And uncharacteristically, given my personal non-confrontational temperament, it's my favorite De La Sol record. And I love it for its darkness and hostility and self-negation, almost. But I also love it for the precious handful of moments where the darkness lifts, where the hostility abates, where the mood once again turns, at least part, partially celebratory when it's time to have fun, when it's time to strap on your roller skates, when it's the weekend.

My name is Rob Harvilla. This is the 90th episode of 60 songs that explain the 90s, and this week we are talking about a roller skating jam named Saturday by De La Sol. From their 1991 album, De La Sol is Dead. We got Vinia Mojica singing The Hook here. She worked with a trap called Quest and Jungle Brothers. Black Star and Heavy D and so on. And I found an interview with her where she mentions Saturday in passing. She's talking about how her favorite songs she ever did were with Mo's Deaf from Black Star.

And she says, whereas something that I did with De La Sol Saturday was supposed to be ironic, but everyone recognizes me from that song, which I don't mind. I'm glad people like it, but it's not really me. end quote and that's pretty funny no it's not quite I hate this song but you love this song but I think we can agree that it's pretty funny so a few programming

notes here I have wanted to do a De La Sol song on this show forever but until recently I could not do a De La Sol song because until recently this show for boring technical reasons was confined to songs available on Spotify which owns the ringer and has excellent health insurance.

However, mostly for boring technical reasons, this show is no longer confined to what we saw is available on Spotify, which is cool, but it's 20,000 times cooler that after an arduous, years-long, really decades-long process, De La Sol's full catalog is finally coming to streaming. Their full catalog will hit streaming on March 3rd, 2023, meaning the group's first six records, Starting with three feet high and rising in 89, and then their next three records that span the 90s.

Dayla Sol is dead in 91, balloon mind state in 93, stakes is high in 96, then a couple more in the early 2000s. My editor and producer and dear friend Justin Sales would like you to know that AOI Bionics from 2001 has three of their best songs ever. I'm not going to tell you which three. This is a universally joyous, heartening, I can't believe it's finally happening type occasion. You think about the span over the last 20 years or so of streaming

holdouts, digital music holdouts, or just digital music absences. The reasons behind those absences are often quite complicated, of course, but like the major beloved artists that weren't streaming or selling MP3s, but then suddenly, often with great ceremony, they were. So the Beatles,

Led Zeppelin, Toole, Aaliyah, Bob Seeger, Prince intermittently, sort of, kind of. I seem to recall subscribing to title, just to listen to Prince a time or two. And it's not that we have zero digital music holdouts remaining today. Shout out Garth Brooks. He's on Amazon, I guess, but still. My dad loves both Bob Seeger and Garth Brooks. My dad somehow might be indirectly responsible for a lot of the major streaming holdouts. This is just now occurring to me.

De La Sol and my dad, I don't think I've ever discussed De LaSol with my dad. I kind of doubt he's up on that, but you never know. I'll give him a call today and feel him out on this. Quite infamously, De La Sol were not willing holdouts. This whole arduous process of taking forever to get on streaming was not their idea. And De La Sol's whole deal with digital music is extra complicated and hard to explain, but the gist is at three feet high and rising, for starters, is both famously. and infamously just a non-stop litany of rad samples of other delightful artists and records and songs.

And because we're talking about the relative Wild West of 1989, some of those samples went and at least one of those uncleared samples resulted in a pricey and unpleasant lawsuit. Shout out the turtles, but that's all over with. As I speak to you now, we are on the cusp of De La Sol finally hitting streaming. It has both a purely symbolic and a legitimately practical matter. It's not like you couldn't hear De La Sol is dead at all for the last 20 years, but it will be way easier now. This is a big deal. In a joyous celebratory occasion, welcoming De LaSoul into the fold and onto your playlist. That's the first programming note. That took forever. Sheesh. Let's break up the programming notes somewhat with my dad's favorite line from a Bob Seeger song.

That's from the Bob Seeger album Against the win from 1980, the title track, Wish I Didn't Know now what I didn't know then. I remember so vividly my dad telling me how much you love that line, how moving that line was for him. And my dad's not rhapsodizing to me about a pop song every day, right? And so when he does, I pay attention. My dad is definitely indirectly responsible for all these big streaming holdouts. Is Jim Croce streaming? I thought he was, but now I'm not so sure. I'm just stalling now. The other programming note. So we start gearing up to finally do a day last soul episode. It's a crazy long time coming.

We're super excited. Then we learn on February 12th, 2023, that David Jalakor, a.k.a. Dave, aka Trugoy the Dove, aka Plug 2, has passed away.

He was 54. He was 54. 54. Shit. And it's awful. And the collective grief on behalf of Dayla's enormous fan base, profound and now we're all trying to balance the joy the ecstatic release of finally getting these

wonderful and tremendously influential and just world historically fantastic records on streaming and we're finally seeing de la soul get their due in a sense they're doing a ton of press they're getting this renewed burst of attention their catalog is going to be available to a whole new audience but now we're also mourning dave aka trugoy the dove aka plug two and lamenting that Dave left us at 54 years old, just a couple weeks shy of De LaSoul's biggest records finally hitting streaming. We are lamenting that he won't get to experience in whatever tangible or intangible sense of this long-delayed and much-deserved celebration of his group and of him and of his work. We're going to get through this together.

Truigoy the Dove is going to help us get through this. vocalized liquid holds the quench of your thirst. Vocalized liquid holds the quench of your thirst. Holy shit. Meet Trugoy. Trugoy, the name, the word, is yogurt backward. He's like 17, 18, 19 years old. He likes yogurt.

So as he embarks in his illustrious rap career, he decides to call himself yogurt back. backward. This song is called Plug Tunin. The debut 12-inch single from De La Sol, released in 1988. De La Sol numerically. We got Kelvin Mercer, aka Paz the Noose, that's sound sop backward. Of course it is, aka Paz, aka Plug 1. Then there's David Jalekore, aka Dave, Trugoy the Dove, aka Plug 2.

And finally, Vincent Mason, aka Macyo, aka PA Pacemaster Mace, aka Plug 3. Mace is a killer DJ, but you'll also hear his voice plenty on De LaR Records. Plug 1 and plug 2. That's just their microphones. You plug the mics into the thing, right? And it's plug one and plug 2. Yeah, the thing.

I know what the thing is. It's just more conversational if I just call it the thing. Here's what Paws the Noose is up to on the original plug tuning. Answering in any off the service, prerogative phrase positively I'm acquitted. enemies publicly shame modatility After the battle They're mittens I'm with it

He sneaks another syllable into the word Positively There Positively Feels important De La Sol are from Amityville, Long Island Close enough to New York City

To absorb the greatness and Gravitas and swagger Of the five boroughs and whatnot But suburban enough to be Suburban His rap name is yogurt Backwards, unbelievable There's that Wu-Tang

clan rap name generator, right? Childish Gambino famously used it. Your de la soul rap name is your favorite food backward. It's simple. That's right. Your rap name now is self-aw. It'll grow on you. They are playful. They are charismatic. They are dressed in baggy, colorful, afrocentric clothes. Thanks to Dave, there's a chance they might have fascinating asymmetrical haircuts. They are swaggering. Already in 1988, there are quite strict dress codes, instruction manuals, blueprints, expectations for how a rapper should look, and De La Sol don't look like that. And especially thanks to the zany and wily and ambitious and musically omnivorous rapper producer named Prince Paul,

they don't sound like anybody's expectations for anything. Prince Paul has been DJing for the established New York City rap group Stetsasonic. He's like 19, which makes him the elder statesman in this equation at this point. But Prince Paul is also the guy whose standard line about himself. And I quite like this line, and I might steal it. Actually, he often says, I've been 18 since I was 18. End quote. I am describing him as zany with all the admiration I can muster.

Prince Paul is the kind of guy who's fuzzling around with Plug Tune in, and he says, you know what this song needs? Liberace. And now for my next number, I'd like to return to the classics. Perhaps the most famous classic in all the world of music. Liberace is about to play chopsticks.

In that sample, the crowd is delighted. As Plug Tunin evolves, Prince Paul also adds drums from a Kentucky funk band called Mansell. In a couple of years, Cypress Hill we'll use those drums for how I could just kill a man. Paul also adds some James Brown, that makes sense,

and a little Billy Joel. That makes less sense. By the time, Plug Tuning is on a full-length record. It is a symphony of whimsical discord. I just love the bumpious horns in conversation with the trilling harps here. I think it's a harp.

Maybe it's just a trebally piano. Meanwhile, ooh, bumptious. You know, I'm really into it. start busting out my rock critic words. That's Truigoi. Style of the tune is personal, and defining what's the rhyme is the worst of all. Also, the meaning isn't muddy. Talking to Rolling Stone about Plug Tunin back in 2009, Truigoy says, a lot of people

listen to that song and say, what the hell are you guys talking about? I don't understand a word, but if you listen to it, you can get it. End quote. De LaSoul have gotten a record deal with Tommy Boy Records. Prince Paul is producing their debut album, though by design with a great deal of input from everybody. And three feet high and rising comes out in 89. And the exuberance bursting out of every last second of this record, with the exception of that one song. And they hate, it just has to be heard to be believed.

Difficult preaching is posthum pleasure. Pleasure and preaching starts in the heart. Something that stimulates the music in the measure. Measure in the music breaks in three parts. This song is called The Magic Number. Difficult preaching is Pazdenous pleasure. Later in that verse, with the same level of pleasurable difficulty and the same sense of bumpious exuberance, I'm still doing it,

Pazelucidates the concept of a daisy age. Tri-camera system is now set. Fly-Rob stored under Daisy production. It stands for the inner sound, y'all in your cab. that the action is not a trick, but so much of function. Yeah, Daisy stands for the inner sound, y'all, and I regret to inform you that they're going to regret that, that acronym, that image, that association.

De La Sol are positive. They're thinking positively, but they're not naive. They're peaceful, but they're not pushovers. They're bohemian, but they're not hippies. Please don't call them hippies. This is going to get to be a huge problem, the Daisy thing. the hippie thing. You better enjoy this relatively uncomplicated, bumptuous exuberance while it lasts, pal. My dad loves Steely Dan too.

This one goes out to my dad. It's called I Know. May I cut this dance to introduce myself as the chosen one for speak. Let me lay my hand across yours and aim a kiss upon your cheek. Yes, that's Steely Dan's peg burbling in the background. Yes, that's Otis Redding whistling, yes, it is impossible to listen to this whole song and not emerge in a good mood.

From the soul I bring you, the daisy of your choice, may it be filled with a pleasure, principle, in circumference to my voice. Take the daisy while Truigoi is still offering the daisy. There's a whole other song on three feet high and rising, singing the praises

of a young lady named Jenny or several young ladies all codenamed Jenny. A kid named Derwin plays chopsticks halfway through that song, if I recall correctly. But we are renouncing all those other jenny's now. Get me in an especially bumptuous mood, and I'll tell you this is my favorite hip-hop love song of all time. About those other jenny's, I reckon with lost them all like a homework excuse. This time the magic number is two, because it takes two, not three to excuse me. Lost them all like a homework excuse. It is glib to say,

This isn't exactly straight out of Compton, but it's not. It is glib to say this isn't exactly, it takes a nation of millions to hold us back, but it's not. And yet, the density and dexterity of the samples, the thoughtful layering, the relentless energy, all of that is quite familiar. No? The video for I know starts out with bubbles. We got primary, almost neon colors. Pause the news spends a lot of time playing air trombone. It's quite charming.

Mace is wearing, I believe, three piece sign medallions. I get why hip-hop fans with a narrower definition of hardness gave De LaSoul shit about this. When the group started touring, they tell stories about getting into fights on the road, having to prove themselves, having to defend themselves. But see, Mace is also the guy. When Mass Appeal put out a short De La-Losol documentary in 2016, Mace is also the guy who says, I boxed a little bit. People don't know that. People who can fight don't talk about fighting. End quote.

If you've got to pick a fight with somebody, maybe pick a fight with a guy wearing one P-Sign medallion, but absolutely do not pick a fight with a guy wearing three P-Sign medallions. My destiny of love is brought to an apex sex is a mere molecule. in this world of lust that I have for you. It's true, true. I know I love you. True goy in that documentary, he says, every damn photo shoot you could bet there was a florist.

He says, that's what got horrible, seeing them damn daisies everywhere we went. Dante Ross, aka Dante the Scrub, their A&R guy at Tommy Boy, he goes so far as to say that all the marketing imagery around three feet high and rising, Dayla Soul found it emasculating. It's not that all the flamboyance and cheerfulness is fraudulent. In any way, if you ever need to just watch like 25 people enjoying each other's company,

look up the video for the De LaSongue buddy, the remix. You got a tribe called Quest, Jungle Brothers, Queen Latifah, etc. It's a joy bomb is the best way, I can describe it. But the fun, the vibrance, the whimsy, the childlike wonder permeating this record, be a smokescreen. Maybe you remember say no go as the super rad song that samples hollow notes. I can't go for that. No can do. Maybe you don't remember, or at least I didn't remember, that pause starts out this song talking about babies addicted to crack. Now let's get right on down to the skit. A baby is brought into a world of piss. And if we could

talk that soon in a delivery room and would have asked a nurse boy hit. Look at me all saying, I didn't remember this song started like that, as though I was rocking through. three feet high and rising back in 1989. Not exactly. Junior high, right? I have a huge crush on this girl. And my dad gives me advice. He's like, with girls, with anybody, the key to conversation is to get them talking about themselves. If you ask them questions about themselves and they get to talk about themselves, they'll walk away thinking you're the best conversationalist in the world. My cool dad, so I go up to this girl, right? And she goes, hi, Rob, and I go, uh, tell me about yourself. please convey a great deal of information about yourself verbally so that I might listen to you.

And she didn't notice any of that. Thank God. She just starts telling me about this new tape she's got. She's like, I love this new album, De La Sol, three feet high and rising. And I go, oh, yes, yes, of course, I agree. Me too. Tell me about that. Yes, yes, we have so much in common.

Keep talking. Yes, I love those guys. I'm not up on De La Sol at all at this point. I'm sorry. I was like 12. I'm still in my Pizza Hut era. And she goes, I especially love this song. And De La Sol, wherever they are at this exact moment, somehow eavesdropping on this conversation,

De La Sol are braced for impact, right? They know she's going to say she loves the song they hate. And she goes, I love this song, Potholes in My Lawn. And she gets this huge beatific smile on her face. And she starts not so much rapping as singing. She goes, Potholes in my lawn. And I go, yes, of course, that's my favorite as well. Tell me more, will you go to Homecoming with me?

I'm just kidding, unless you really want to. I'm listening extremely hard. And De La Sol, wherever they are, they love this girl now, too, because she didn't say the song they hate. Everybody's saying what to do when suck a lunatic start digging and chewing. They don't know that the soul don't go for that pot holes in my lawn. She had great taste, and I had great taste in girls with great taste. We're Facebook friends now, three feet high and rising.

As you might be aware, also pioneer the fine art of the rap album skit. Many delightful skits, the game show, the orgy, the one with the lady speaking French that got them sued by the turtles, and also the one called Take It Off, where they all crowd around the mic and clown on various lame articles of clothing. Is this a skit-off? It's skit-esque. Prince Paul says they didn't call them skits. They called them skits. They called them bug-out pieces. And that works for me, actually. Whatever you call take it off, I love it so much. And I imagine everyone listening to it in a defensive crouch because on a long enough timeline,

they're going to mention something you are currently wearing. It's only a matter of time. It's like that a Tribe Call Quest line on the low end theory where Fife Dog says, your lyrics is played like eight ball jackets. And I always picture a guy wearing an eight ball jacket listening to that and just going, oh, excuse me.

Excuse me, not to nitpick. Not to pick a fight with myself. But three feet high and rising was released in, 1989. It is, technically, outside this show's purview. What say we move into the 90s? Yeah? We need an elegant transition, though. Yeah, look out. Top 5 songs released in 1989, which means I can't do an episode about them and it pisses me off. Here we go. Number 5, Epic by Faith No More. The epic episode would just be me playing the piano part at the end of this song for 45 minutes. while telling you about various dreams I've had. Recently, it's more of an avant-garde approach.

Maybe we're all better off. Number four, Escapade by Janet Jackson. Or maybe I do Rhythm Nation or Black Cat. It's too many choices. Somehow that pisses me off as well. Matter of fact, number three is a 12-way tie between all 12 songs on disintegration by the cure. Definitely I do love song, though.

right or maybe Fascination Street I can just play the Fascination Street baseline and tell you about all my dreams for 45 minutes number two fast car by Tracy Chapman actually this came out in 1988 but that somehow makes me angrier Do you remember when

Nicky Minaj wanted to sample a Tracy Chapman song but she couldn't and so Nikki Minaj's fans the Barbes started talking shit online and one of the barbs called Tracy Chapman Tunisia Chapstick? I do.

I remember that. I will remember that for everybody. That is a service I can provide. And number one, you guessed it. Actually, that's De LaSoul transitioning out of me, myself, and I, on the Arsenio Hall show. Arsenio has just introduced the group as The Hippies of Hip Hop

and now it's De La Sol's turn to be pissed. These guys are displeased. You're not going to see a florist within a hundred miles of any of these guys ever again. And indeed, they will convey a great deal of displeasure on their second album, released in 1991,

which features an overturned flower pot of wilted daisies on the cover and is entitled, De La Sol is, dead. We bring, we ring, we ring the piece of course, but pack a night inside inside my daylight draw. A picture, picture, painted pink could turn to red to red to red and blooded quick.

This song is called Pease Porage Hot, and the beat is relentlessly delightful. And that stuttering little rhyme cadence is relentlessly delightful. And Truigoy just said that a pink picture could turn red real quick thanks to the nine packed inside his De La Droars. Truigoy, in that Mass-appeal documentary, he talks about this record and this record's title, and he says, We were having a good time joking around,

sticking to our stupidity. De La Sol is Dead was a joke, end quote. For another perspective, I really must insist that you seek out a podcast called What Had Happened Was, hosted by the rapper Open Mike Eagle. We'll be talking to Mike later. He's our guest this week,

but please seek this show out. The first season is a series of long conversations with Prince Paul. All about his work is solo projects, Stessasonic, the native tongues broadly, but mostly Paul talks about his work on the first three De La Sol records, with a full episode for each. And for De La Sol is Dead, Paul says he really loved that title, and he really pushed for that concept, in part because the self-loathing and self-negation of that title

helped undercut how mean this record could be. inwardly but also outwardly mean justifiably mean but still a little mean would you like to hear a song about how de la slo are tired of people pushing demo tapes on them and they don't want to listen to your demo if you want to leave a message on their answering machine asking about your demo go ahead but they're never going to get back to you about your demo which they're not going to listen to sure you'd like to hear that song

Hey, how you doing? Sorry you can't get through I don't to leave your name and your number And I'll get back to you This song's called Ring Ring Ring Ring Parentheses ha ha hey

That's the video version Some righteous saxophone action There Would you like to hear them complain about a certain TV show Sure you would It's so rich high planes Good ever reach so train

But don't like rap So that won't happen Thing we don't lust God we do trust Arsenio distance But the crowd kept clasping I told you they were pissed about Arsenio This song is called Pass the Plugs This song is beautiful

Dude This song is the most gorgeous Watching the Sunrise Refrain imaginable Listen to how beautiful this shit is And past the peas like it used to say Pass the peas like it used to say Pass the peas like it used to say

I can trace my love, my preference for De La Sola's Dead, back to a single instance when I listen to this whole album on my iPod or whatever while taking a long walk through Fort Green Park in Brooklyn, New York, in the springtime. This is May of 2008. I have documentation for this. Let's not get into that. But I'm walking around Fort Green Park, which is semi-picturesque. You know, it's arborous. Winter is over finally. I don't have. to walk while wearing 50 layers. I'm getting married in three months. I'm feeling great. And out of nowhere, I fully mind-meld with De La Sol is dead. I can picture the intersection I was walking through in the direction I was facing, looking out at the arborousness of Fort Green Park when I got to the song Bitties in the

BK lounge. Lingerin, I can tell. She's a BK mademoiselle. Rink the uniform and bottom bell And some jelly stuff on a sleeve That's Truigoy doing the opening salvo Of biddies in the BK lounge Which is a many trilogy

About arguing with women And Burger King I'm absolutely serious The fluent melodiousness Of lingering I can tell She's a BK Madame Wazel

Just a beautifully conveyed Delightfully Ridiculous Series of words I am aware as I revel in all this ridiculous beauty, that this is an uncommonly and uncomfortably angry record. I am aware that it is called De La Sol is Dead. I am aware that most of the goofy skits on this record consists of people talking shit about this record

and beating up anyone who says they like this record. Tell me, what are they saying, man? You know, I kind of like it, man. What do you know about music hamster penis? The punching sound effect is so whimsical, though. It's hilarious. They're not serious about any of this. Are they?

Yes, it's the mythical rap album with skits about how nobody's going to like this rap album. You don't see many of those. That's the biggest flex of all, really. Outcasts Sequemini, right? The record store skit where there's guys trying to buy a pimp trick gangster click record, and they don't like Outcast anymore. With Outcast trying to be genies or aliens or whatever. it's unbelievable how good your songs have to be for your skits to be about how people don't like your songs.

So let's zero in on two songs on De La Sol is Dead. The darkest song and the lightest song. That's subjective, of course. It's arguable. If we're talking darkness, there's a song in this record called My Brothers a bass head, and it's none of our business how real it is, how true to life it might be, but it feels real in the moment. And that applies also to the song called Millie Pulled a Pistol on Santa. The title does sound silly. The title does sound silly. doesn't it? But this is Pasta Nuce in character, talking about his social worker who's named Dylan and Dylan's daughter Millie, and the revelation that Dylan, Millie's father, is sexually abusing her, which leads to her shooting and killing her father while he's dressed as Santa Claus at

the mall. What makes this song so effectively terrifying is how it weaponizes the vivid storytelling, the color, the silliness we've already come to love de la Sol for. All those strengths are present here, but now they deploy all those strengths to convey something truly awful. Millie tried real hard to let this hell not happen, but when she fussed, he would just commence the slap. Yo, Dylan, man, Millie's been out of school for a week, man, what's the deal? I guess he was giving Millie Bruce's time to heal. To compound the awfulness, Truigoy's verses, in character, he's rapping from the perspective of a friend of Millie's who doesn't believe her. she tells him what her father's doing

and that she wants a gun and what she's going to do with that gun and he doesn't believe her and he doesn't give her the gun the ransom style about a pushing on a private look honey I don't care if you keep faucet there's no way that you could prove to me that deals flip he might be the buck

but your teens he wouldn't rip the phrase there's no way that you can prove to me is so brutal there she gets the gun from somewhere else pause the news takes over reporting live from the mall the song is almost over none of the kids could understand what was the cause all they could see was a girl holding a pistol on claws Dylan pleaded mercy said he didn't mean to do all the things that hurt my foot do nothing but cling to milly bucked them and with the quickness it was over the song's over and it's the

tumbling phrase all they could see was a girl holding a pistol on claws that is extra brutal to me somehow, the dexterity even within the horror. That is a whimsical, sped-up jumble of syllables in any other context. My read, anyway, is that this is part of the Daisy Age, too, confronting the ugliest, most terrible things, and confronting often our own unwillingness to believe them. And I start to understand a little better the ferocity of De La Sol's resentment of all the florists at their early photo shoots. the way they built such an elaborate and evocative and sincere and ambiguous lived-in universe that only got them praised but also dismissed as hip-hop hippies.

Their lightness always had a darkness to it, around the edges at least, and that darkness was every bit as vivid and necessary. That's what made the lightness feel so genuine and so perfect. There are eight tracks separating the song Millie pulled a pistol on Santa from the soul, song, A Roller Skating Jam named Saturday. But it feels like there's a galaxy in between them. But these songs are sharing the same galaxy. That's what makes the ugliness bearable. And that's what makes the levity a little more complicated and profound than it gets credit for.

The title, A Roller Skating Jam, named Saturday, introduces a little more distance, right? a self-consciousness. We're in disco mode, retro mode, nostalgic mode. There's a deliberate naivete. We are literally roller skating. Also, we got Q-Tip. You have a tribe called Quest on the first verse,

and he's about to drop one of those lines, only Q-Tip can get away with. Erection brings bad boy joy. That's terrible. Man, that's why Q-Tip's the best. To my mind, this is the poppiest, the catchiest, the breeziest song on De La Sol is dead. is, but diving from a piece of metal sure to take your life. This is an escapist song about escapism, the necessity of escapism, but the limits of escapism too. Truigoy knows this too, of course,

even though he shows up to talk about Mr. Sprinkler. Oh, Mr. Sprinkler, Mr. Sprinkler, with me for one, Mr. Sprinkler, I'm heating high five and a day's no split. With a yawn, I trip to the dawn. There's a great shot of Truigoy, and the video for this song spraying kids with a hose it's tremendously wholesome the beat change here is also pretty glorious zipity dude i let's zip on by feed on a weed and we're feeling high sun is on thick and cheese and bold and thick come on it's no time to hide feed on a weed and we're feeling high then you get pause cutip trugoy and vinya in quick succession for a pretty chaotic and

slightly less wholesome and absolutely necessary ten seconds get baked like Anita. Watch Mr. Laundle look at the beater. Feel on the farm, I'll fill on the... Hey, watch that. It's a Saturday. And then we're back to Vinia Mojika on the hook. Vinia, who doesn't do many interviews,

but in one, she said the song Saturday was supposed to be ironic, but people recognize her for it, but she doesn't mind, but it's not really her. Please, oh, please, let her be herself, not what you read or write. This isn't her favorite song. This isn't the most important song. song she'll ever do, but she knows a ton of people like it, and she knows what would bring those

people joy. And so she sings that shit. My friends, I totally blew my informal word limit here, and there's a very good chance I didn't even touch your favorite De La Sol song, or even your favorite De Lausole's song, or even your favorite De Laosalienable. That's what makes Trugoy's loss so painful. That's what makes this catalog's imminent streaming debut so beautiful. The Dayla's Soul discography is dense, challenging, self-contradictory, self-annihilating in places. And even its simplest pleasures are never quite as simple as you want them to be. But this music is as rewarding as it gets. The most hard-fought rewards, yes, but some of the appeal won't take a few run-throughs to fully wrap your head around.

Sometimes all you get and all you need is a buoyant voice informing you repeatedly. that it's the weekend. And I think of my dad, and I think of the fine art of conversation, and I think of Bob Seeger, and I think that I, too, now, I really wish I didn't know now what I didn't know then. But that doesn't mean I'm not eternally grateful to De La Sol for teaching me. Our guest this week, we are thrilled to welcome back the great rapper and podcaster, Open Mike Eagle. His latest album is called Component System with the Auto Reverse. And as I mentioned, he also hosts the podcast What Had Happened Was. Mike, it's great to talk to you again.

It is great to be back. How are you doing? I'm okay. I'm all right. You know, you and I spoke, we planned this, we scheduled this before learning that True Goya the Dove had passed away. So unfortunately, I think the only way to start is to sort of take stock of what we've lost. You know, what made him so great and so distinct? Like, what did he bring to De La Sol and what did he bring to rap music as a whole? I think it's a profoundly difficult question to answer because I think that his importance was kind of unique and on a lot of levels. I have been trying to understand why or all the reasons. why it feels like such an enormous loss.

And one of the main things that struck out to me, it really centers around my engagement, my encountering the native tongues as a small child when I was eight or nine years old. And how I remember just growing up within hip hop, I never thought that there was much in it that I felt related to me until I saw them.

I saw the video for De La Sol's buddy and the different way they wore their hair, the fun that these three groups of people plus, I mean, these three groups of rappers, a tribe called Quest, De LaSole and Jungle Brothers, plus Queen Latifah and Moni Love, the camaraderie that they showed on that video set and Prince Paul, the aesthetic, the humor.

And I remember the first time my son, the video for me, myself, and I, like, seeing the way that, you know, True Boy, aka Dave, like, when he's sitting in the classroom looking kind of despondent with like a half dreadlocked haircut and like there's all this stuff going on around him and he doesn't feel like any of it resonates with him, he feels outcast, like, oh, it spoke to me so clearly. So, like, one of the things is his image, his image, I think it's sort of, I think his impact in terms of how he styled himself is sort of understated in terms of its importance for establishing the aesthetic of what native tongues was. And then if you start there and you go through each era of de la soul, I will put. maybe the first two albums in one era,

De La So, De La So is Dead. Balloon Mind State, their image starts to change a little bit. They start to me, they start to feel a little bit like mature. Like they cut the hair. They're dressing in what I would consider to be more like what older people, like people who were slightly older than me

that were into hip hop used to dress like then. you know like kind of that kind of preppy look um running counter to the street look that a lot of other people were doing but again it's like and and around that time he started doing like the covering one eye thing like if you look at the award the award tour video hits so different now because we've lost truoy and we've lost fife yeah so you really look at that video it's like oh my goodness Because, you know, Native Tongues is celebrated as these collaborations between these artists that we all loved. But there ain't that many crossovers if you really look at it. And a war tour was one of those where it felt so easy.

It felt like these were artists who were in a community together, working together. And Dave drops that amazing hook on that song and the video. And it's like, oh, this is great. And then you go into the Stakesh's High phase. And I think again, image-wise, and I tell people this and I tweeted this the day he passed because I saw a clip of the video for Stakes-Is-high. And that image of Dave doing his laundry, what he was doing his laundry. I cannot tell you how impactful that was. Not on me and on the culture at the time because what was happening,

you know, people who grew up liking a certain kind of hip hop, we were trying to, like, find music that continued to, like, resonate with us, that continued. It's like what kind of felt initially, like, just aesthetic taste, right? Because there used to be this full spectrum of rap music that was available to all of us. You know, we used to be able to hear Public Enemy NWA, LL KooJ, IST on the same station. And as it got into the 90s and the business part of hip hop got more formalized, you know, the big labels started putting their chips on what was making money the most. And that was a lot of gangster stuff, a lot of street stuff.

And, you know, people who were into other stuff often found that there was not much for us, but then a group like De La Seau really carried the flag for that and really sort of established like, this is the counter movement. The counter movement is realism. The counter movement is practicality. The counter movement is we're going to talk about our experiences. We're not going to try to be anything other than who we are as people. And that was really powerful. So like, yeah, a big budget video where part of it is him doing his laundry while he's doing his verse. It's so mundane, but so epic at the same time.

It really is. And then the last thing I would say is that he was always, especially if you, if you start to look at the dayline, the stakes is high era on, I feel like Truigoy, Dave, I feel like he was one of the most, like, cuttingly honest emcees we've ever had. Just, just would give you straight facts

on what he was feeling, not pulling any punches, just giving you straight, raw truth. And as I go back through and listen to the albums, like, that's what's sticking out to me most. It's just, no pretense, you know, just truly, truly being himself. Well, that's all, that's all beautiful, man. Thank you. I, it's, it's, it's, you hear that sentiment a lot broadly. Like, I, I, I saw myself

on screen, you know, I saw a path, a different way. And it, and it always means something, but it feels like that, even the buddy video, you know, native towns, De Laus all themselves, like, that, that was absolutely true, like, more true. And it, and it, and it, it, it, it, and it, it, it, it, it, it, it, true than ever, that they just, they showed another path and another way of being, you know, and that you could be yourself. Right. They made that lane. Like, I wouldn't exist as an artist if I didn't feel like I had a seat at the table aesthetically inside a hip-hop based on what they were doing. What I think of rap groups, I'm always curious about the chemistry within them, whether it's the similarities or the differences.

You think about public enemy, right? Like Flava Flav and Chuck D. There's a galaxy between them, and that's why they work so well, whereas something like clips or mob deep, it's more the similarity. I'm curious how you see De La Sol in that light, and especially the interaction between Paz and Trugoy.

Is it more their similarities or their differences, do you think, that allows them to play off each other so well? I mean, and initially, it felt like the big, you know, it felt like they were oftentimes doing matching styles on songs. And in that, I think a lot of their differences didn't shine through as much in the beginning. If you look at that stakes as high era on, when they do start to differentiate some, it did seem like Dave's style settled into more of these, you know, like I said, hardcore truth and just gut punches all the time. where Paz, there seem to be more of a value on, on like, flourishes.

They always seem aligned value-wise, but I think the real key to thinking about De La Soul is that in most rap groups where there's two rappers, there's typically a lead person and the second guy, you know, Black Moon, Buckshot, and the five-footer, you know, know, I think people think of Q-Tip as the leader of tribe and Fife is the second guy. And De LaSoude, those two guys are partners. You never felt like there was a lead guy. It felt like it was two equally positioned rappers having the shared experience. And if you ever saw them live, like, they really played into that.

They often split the crowd down the middle. Dave would take one side and pos to take the other side and he basically make both sides of the crowd battle each other with applause. But each of them felt licensed to command half an audience because it seemed that they were both on equal footing. Which is not what you get in a lot of rap groups. We've lost so many rappers in the past few years

in their 40s and 50s. Trugoy, I think, was 54. Your song, your tribute. tribute to MF Doom meant so much to people. I think Doom was 49, Biz Marquis was 57, gangster boo was 43. And I feel silly saying this, but it feels like an epidemic, right? Like that hip hop needs some kind of support system. But is there any like tangible way to articulate like what that would look like? I don't know. I mean, it's something I think about a lot. Like you want to think that, you want to think that in an industry that big, there'd be some sort of like standardized

healthcare options. A union. I mean, yes. But I think, I think, I mean, I could see that there's obviously complications in that, right? Because if there's a union and I'm in it and also Fabulous is in it, right? Like, I don't think we both have earned the same amount of, you know, compensation and support. Wow. I think, you know, I think that there's, there's, you know, because if it's a union, the forces that we're trying to stabilize our economic.

So I think somehow it's got to be weighted towards people who brought more money into the system somehow, right? Like, and I just don't know. I don't know how that works, you know, because that practicality, that reality runs counter. to what I would want the union to do. I would want it to celebrate the people who didn't do that much in the business, but were important artistically, you know, like a De La Sol, for instance. You know, I remember reading somewhere that some, I think it was stakes as high at some point, had sold 300,000 albums, and that was seen as a failure back then.

Right. 95. Yeah, I'm like, now that would be incredible. That's a number one record now. But I just think about like, you know, how important that album is. But if you look at everything else that came out that year that people remember, it's probably stuff to sell way more. So like, how do you balance out the support with the, you know, the economy generated by ex-artists or why? artists like i just yeah i don't understand how how it would work practically but there does need to be

some sort of structured for stabilizing the lives of people who have given their life to this i think about pos i'm thinking about pa so much right now because they were like they're lifers lifers as de la soul teen start as teenagers yeah right and then they're in their 50s and this thing that they've been doing their entire adult lives, they can never do another De La Sol show again. Right. I mean, how? Yeah, you can't play, he can't make money playing live.

I mean, there's the emotional aspect and the financial aspect. Right. Certainly not in the way that they were, that the way that they have been. Like, there's, there's no going back to that. And he's given his whole life to that, Mace too, you know, like, and then what, what do they do now? Yeah. And the other dimension to this is we're, you know, we're on the cusp of this thing we've wanted for so long, which is the records on streaming, right? And I, like, what does it mean really? Like, we, we've been waiting for this for like, it feels like 20 years. Obviously, these records weren't impossible to listen to. But like, is there legitimately the potential now, like, for a whole new audience, for a sort of renaissance? Like, how big a deal is this really? I'll tell you this. I'll tell you this.

when the news came out that Dave died, like I really needed a moment with the music. And I went on YouTube to try to find the albums and on streaming. Yeah. They weren't there. They're kind of, yeah, they're not there. I went to my CD collection, realized that the only thing in my house that has a disc drive in it is my PS5. Yeah, and it does not play audio CDs.

What? Oh, no. I didn't know that. Yes, audio CDs are not compatible with the PlayStation 5. That's not good news. It's not. Jesus. I think the availability of music on streaming is more important than any of us can imagine.

Okay. Because I'm a fan. I've had the music and I can't listen to it. You still can't listen to it. I still can't listen to because my entire technological life has adjusted to streaming. And, you know, their stuff not being on streaming is like it's tantamount to it being out of print. Right. Yeah.

You know, you just can't get it. So it's like, I think it's going to make all the difference in the world. Okay. that's good that's good to hear day last soul is dead has always been my favorite you know for sort of arbitrary reasons but i can you think of another sophomore album that like refutes the entire image of a debut album like as a rapper as an artist yourself do you understand why they felt the need to immediately recalibrate like so violently i do um yeah and and i think what i've learned about what was going on at Tommy Boy in that moment.

And, you know, Monica Lynch was a marketing genius. And she would figure out how to package a Queen Latifah, how to package a digital underground, and make these artists characters that were larger than life. But I don't think anybody really understood what that could cost an artist, especially a black artist that still lives in a black neighborhood and still, you know, has, has a black adult's existence. It's like there's certain images that, that can make it make your life more difficult if it doesn't also come along with enough riches to insulate you people, you know? Right, right. So them being marketed as hippies meant people thought they were soft. So they had to

fight people. They had to fight people on tour all that time. Because the marketing was too effective. And so in that sense, it's similar to, you know, another Tommy Boy artist, Prince Rakeem, you know, who was packaged as a smooth talking lover boy. Yeah, he sure was. With a, with a top hat and tails, you know, for him to become the Rizza is largely the same thing. It's like having to counter program the marketing narrative because it was too effective. Right. Yeah, that makes a whole lot of sense. This goes a long way toward answering my next question, I guess, which is like, why did they hate me, myself and I so much?

Right? Like, it was any, you toured with them. You saw first hand. Well, I didn't tour with them. I've done a couple shows with them. I didn't tour with them. Okay, all right. Okay.

Yeah. I'd know that you'd seen them, you know, you'd share the stage with them. You'd see first hand. And then seen them as fans a bunch. Right, right. Is any part of their, you know, we hate this song vibe, like, performative, you know, like they think it's a little funny, you know, to hate their big breakout song, or was, is, are they absolutely serious that they cannot stand this song? Yeah. I mean, my career has existed on a much smaller scale, but there's certainly songs from my early career that people like that I will never play again.

Okay. You know, because, well, and specifically in the instance of me, myself, and I, you know, the story of that album is that they turned it in and Tommy Boy was like, we don't have a radio hit. We need a single. Yeah. Right. So, you know, it wasn't like me, myself and I was some burning artistic statement that they just couldn't wait to make. It was literally a commercial song that they were making because that's what the album needed. And so, you know, it did what it was supposed to do.

But I think, you know, I've heard Eminem talk about how my name is the same way. It's like, it's the hit song that you get fucking sick of real fast. Yeah. Real fast. Yeah. It's that mass marketable song that works for everybody. But as the creator of it, you have heard it a million times more than anybody else. You get tired of it.

You get tired of doing it. And, you know, if you look at it, act like Del Asoe, like kind of when we started talking, we discussed their journey, their evolution as artists, and by the time you get to Stakesz's high, that's such a different group. They're making such a different kind of music than me, myself, and I. And, you know, I think aesthetically,

you can just be hard to go back and embrace that, you know? Sure. I think that the connective tissue between me and myself and I and Stakes is high. Like, one step on that road is Millie, hold a pistol on Santa, right? Which is like, it's perverse to say that's like a favorite, but that song is so striking to me.

It really is. And what's striking is like, I don't want, I need a word other than whimsical, but there's like, there's a playfulness to it and just the wordplay and the storytelling is so vivid in the way that we're used to from them, but it's in the service of this absolutely dark and tragic story. Like, what makes De La Sol so good at mixing heaviness with like a kind of lightness like that? Gosh, that's a really great question. It makes me think of a song that's like that,

but the song I'm thinking of is way more unfortunate than that song. Classic example of date rape by trial. Yeah. I think they were attempting to make that same kind of song. Yes. Yeah. I think De La Sollé pulled it off a little better because they weren't coming from a place of preaching or or being pros, being, you know, prescriptive about how to solve

the problem of child abuse, they were telling a story. It's a story. Yeah. And I think that they found ways to make the story interesting to them. Hmm. You know, and I think, you know, if you look at the title, Millie pulled a pistol on Santa. It's like you don't get, like in the title alone, you don't really get the dark underpinning. Of course you don't.

It's like, oh, this is hilarious, right. But you get this crazy image. And I think that's probably like what appealed to them about telling the story in that way. And that's what ultimately made a genius. Yeah, and you're talking about the two of them as rappers being on equal footing. Like the way Truigoy in Millie is like the guy who doesn't believe her, right? Like she goes to him for the gun and he's like, this is bullshit, you know, like you're lying to me. You know, like he plays that character, you know, and that's such a dark and tragic aspect of the story.

But the way that he can embody that while Paa's telling the rest of the story, like that's where their chemistry really pays off when they're trying to do something, you know, this difficult, but bring it off that well. Yeah. And, like, I think rap is just at such a different place now. it was then too that like nobody would try to make that song now. Right. You know? Yeah. At that time, I think rap was something that felt more like it was, you know,

rap made by people within hip hop for people within hip hop. And there was a lot more leeway in terms of just trying to figure shit out. Where now, you know, rap is exposed to such a global audience. It's pop. You know, right. Yeah, you wouldn't, you wouldn't want to like, take the risk of trying to like, like you say, do something like that when any sort of like whimsical or, you know, artistic flair, you know.

Yeah. I talking about song titles, like the song title, a roller skating jam called Saturday. Like this is, it's such a joyful and celebratory song, but that song title, you know, suggests like some distance, you know, something a little sardonic about it. Like, are there, are even the uncanny? complicated songs on De La Sol is Dead, like a little bit complicated. I think so. I think, you know, especially when you hear Prince Paul talk about it, they were so angry

while they were making that record. Right. And I think that, yeah, you know, that title, and I hadn't even thought about that to you asked it, but that title does have a little bit of vitriol in it. And it might be like, you know, maybe they wanted to go back and call me myself and I, a chart-topping song called me myself. Yes. You know what I'm saying?

Like, it's like, maybe, maybe. maybe them wanting to more fully own the fact that they were trying to do something slightly commercial in order to help themselves do it in order to rectify, you know, them being a kind of a group with some artistic integrity, but also that they know that they have to do some things to satisfy the marketplace. Do you get the sense that this song is kind of that instance? Like, do you happen to know, like, did they bring this song in? Was this another song, another situation? where they're like, we could use, like, more of a radio single, and that's how it arose? Like, do you have any idea how this song appeared within the making of the album? I do not, I don't remember talking to Paul specifically about that song or hearing the story of how it came together. But it makes sense, though.

It does. And I do imagine that with, I believe that what De La Sol is dead, they were probably a little less concerned with what Tommy Boy wanted in general and probably just bringing them things as they made them, you know, as they made them or presenting them. with a pretty fleshed out album like, this is it, you know? But even with that, you know, they had ring, ring, ring on that album. There's quite a few songs on that album that kind of like sample disco, you know, that have a little bit of dance element to it. So, you know, I think that they just, I don't know, I don't want to think that they didn't like those songs.

Yeah, me neither. Especially a song like Ring, ring, rings. I mean, that's like one of those perfect A La Sol song. Like, we're going to make this really upbeat song complaining about how people talk to us too much. That is so amazingly de la soul to me. It's pretty funny. I think you've said that Balloon Mind State is your favorite record. And that's been the revelation for me just in the last few weeks, you know, going back through the catalog, you know, just how loose and organic it feels.

Like, what makes that one your favorite? it. I think musically, it's so adventurous. It's so not like anything else. Like, there were, you know, you had, you had diggable planets. You had guru making jazzmataz albums. Like, it wasn't like nobody was using jazz, but I don't think anybody was using it that way. It's like they had, but they also used a lot of live players that were good at jazz and funk.

And so, you know, really leaning on the J.B.'s band and kind of like making songs that had the spirit of the James Brown songs that hip hop was sampling relentlessly in those times. But like that element of, you know, the live bass and the live horns and just how meticulously everything was put together, how different it was. I mean, to this day, I don't think there's anything like that album. You can just feel them in the room together. You know, you can feel them reaching for something else. Like, just being so unsatisfied by what you could just, you know, by what you could do with, you know, beat machines and samplers, like, wanting to make something that kind of felt alive and super weird. Super weird. Yeah.

Interesting thing about that album, no, is that I remember reading an interview with Dave where he said that's his least favorite album. It seems, I remember you talking with Paul about how Dave didn't seem as involved in it. Well, he was, Paul, Prince Paul was telling me that. But, you know, I read an interview. This might have been around like A-O-I times where he was saying that was his least favorite album because he felt like he felt like he, felt like they had gotten too far away from the values and the aesthetic of like the community that they were actually in as black people. Like they didn't feel like it was an album that could resonate for people who they lived

around. You know, he felt like it was two way out, two left field. And that's great for people like me because that's what I wanted. But I also understand it. you go too far in that direction, it can feel disconnected from the people you're around. And, you know, I get it. But I also wish he had loved that album more. Yeah, me too. You talked to Paul for so long, you know, I loved that season of what happened was what had happened was so much. I was it, what was the revelation, were there any revelations for you talking to him?

Anything that really surprised you, you know, that contradicted the way you experienced that music in real time? One thing that I still think about a lot, and it's not so much that it's shocking, but it's just so different to how music is made now. And it was very much of the times, but the way they put a lot of these songs together would be that Paz or Dave or Prince Paul or Mace would just bring records into the studio. and they would just cut them up right there and make songs and start writing. That approach to making music is so foreign to me. The idea that the MCs were bringing in records for the producers to sample, like, that is...

And now I understand it, that was a lot of what was happening. You look at ultramagnetic MCs. You look at... Gosh, there was somebody else I was reading about recently where that was a part of the process too. but it just seems so foreign to me that that's amazing to think about. And also to think about the fact that they were like literally children. Right.

Yeah. Yeah. It's wild. That they were 18, 19 years old, fresh out of high school, like being so self-aware as to have an approach to making music and a person. sense of style that set them that much apart from what was going on in this, you know, it was a vibrant culture at the time. But it was so much smaller. I mean, it was so young, you know, the culture of hip hop was so young.

And you could only imagine how much pressure there was to conform, you know. And the fact that they felt so in tune with them. themselves artistically so inspired to do something left field. I think it's amazing just to think about that in terms of them being 18, 19 years old. 18 years young. Yeah. Mike, this has been fantastic. I really appreciate talking to.

Thanks so much. Man, it's nice to have a forum to get some of these thoughts out that have been bouncing around in my head since I found out he passed. way. And, you know, it's, it can be rough. I was, I was, uh, I was telling somebody, I was, my son is 14 and I got the news. I was with him. And like, I needed a minute to kind of step away and just like put some music on real fast and just kind of feel their music. And he didn't understand that at all. No, no. No, I mean, no. Like, I mean, he gets it in terms of just understanding all of that conceptually, but. Sure, but he can't feel it, you know. There's no way him to understand the impact that their music had on me.

Of course. He's not in that place, you know. That's what makes me curious about, you know, this streaming stuff, right? Like, you can get to it easy and that's wonderful. That's great, you know, but it's, that's not the same thing as, you know, getting the tape in 1989, right? But that's impossible, but we got to try, I guess. Thank you again, Mike. This has been a lot.

Thank you. Thanks for having me, man. This has been great. Thanks very much to our guest this week. open mic eagle. Thanks as always to our producers, Justin Sales and Jonathan Kerma. Thanks very much to Cal Davenport for hooking me up with the De LaSoul Live record at the very beginning there. That was awesome. Additional production support provided by Chloe Clark. And thanks very much to you for listening. And now, I guess you can't do this on Spotify yet, but very soon, I would like you to go listen to a roller skating jam named Saturday.

day by De La Soe. We'll see you in a little bit.