60 Songs That Explain the '90s - “Are You Gonna Go My Way”—Lenny Kravitz

Episode Date: January 10, 2024

Rob looks back at his MTV watching days as a child in the late 80s before turning his attention to Lenny Kravitz. Along the way in his monologue, Rob highlights Kravitz’s appearance on ‘The Arsenio Hall Show’ in 1991 and the perceived disconnect between black radio/publications and Kravitz’s music. Later, Rob is joined by writer Elamin Abdelmahmoud to further discuss Kravitz’s recent comments on this disconnect. Host: Rob Harvilla Guest: Elamin Abdelmahmoud Producers: Jonathan Kermah and Justin Sayles Additional Production Support: Chloe Clark Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I'm Yossi Salick, and I'm the host of Bansplain, a show where we explain cult bands and iconic artists by going deep into their histories and discographies. We're back with a brand new season at our brand new home, the Ringer podcast network, tackling a whole new batch of artists, from grunge gods to power pop pioneers to new metal legends and many, many more. Listen to new episodes every Thursday, only on Spotify. To me, he personifies the American. dream. He is America. He is manifest destiny. He is rock and roll incarnate. When I was nine years old in 1987, living in semi-rural Eureka, Missouri, a half hour out of St. Louis, I played Little League. I played Transformers. I played Metroid for the original 8-bit NES. I collected baseball cards. I watched MTV. I chewed Big League chew.

gum, the giant blatantly tobacco-esque packets of bright pink shredded gum where you put way too much in your mouth at once. I rocked Big League chew even when I wasn't playing Little League. I rode my He-Man big wheel. I rode my bike. I rode shotgun when I got my mom to drive me to Walmart. I played an arcade game in the Walmart lobby called Russian Attack, not Russian the ethnicity. Don't be ridiculous. That's rush, apostrophe, lowercase, and attack.

Those are two verbs, rush and attack. It's not a video game about the Cold War called Russian attack, where you put in a quarter and you get to personally defeat communism by stabbing like 400 Russian bad guys with a giant knife. And also sometimes you get a bazooka. You can't make that video game and put it in a Midwestern Walmart and call it Russian attack. That's absurd.

It's Russian attack with an apostrophe. It's about rushing and then attacking, or perhaps rushing and attacking simultaneously. Get a hold of yourself. America. That was America to me. I was America to myself. But really, he was America to me. And seemingly to everyone else.

No, you don't think so? He ain't America to you? Fine. You look him in the eye and you tell him he ain't. John Cougar Mellon Camp rocking a mullet and a jean jacket as he awkwardly dances in literally a field of golden wheat while lip-syncing the chorus to his 1983 anthem

Pink Houses. This is Maximum America. My friends, you want to get any more American than this? You're going to have to personally drone strike somebody. That was rude. Okay, that was too far. I do apologize to you and to John Cougar and to America. Let's leave the drones out of it. Yeah?

Uncouth ill-advised jokes, ain't that America? Also, I've been thinking about my idyllic Big League Chew childhood in Eureka, Missouri recently. I talked to this dude who just totally out of nowhere also grew up near Eureka. We went to the same church. We were astounded to have found each other. And we just nerded out about mid-80s suburban St. Louis for 20 minutes. I was like, remember that water park right by the highway? And he was like, oh, you mean wet willies?

And I was like, the water park was named Wet Willys? What the hell kind of a name for a water park is that? An awesome one. That's what kind. Wet Willys. America. Remember when MTV had a contest where you sent in a postcard and you want a house in John Cougar Mellon Camp's hometown of Bloomington, Indiana.

And you got to fly 25 of your friends out to Bloomington, Indiana to your new house there. And John Cougar Mellencamp would ride a motorcycle through your front door and play a house party in your new living room in your new house in Bloomington, Indiana. And also contractually, you had to paint your new house pink. Of course you don't remember that. That's not a real thing. I made that up. Why did I make that up? That also is absurd.

It's smack in the middle of the heartland. Bloomington, Indiana, hometown of John Cougar, Melon Camp. Oh, yeah, you have the painted pink. Little big house. You and me. Of course I didn't make that up. How am I going to make that up? That's real.

That's America. MTV in the 80s was chaos. Dude, MTV in the 80s was like if the biggest dirtbag you knew won the lottery. In that contest, you also won a pioneer stereo system, a pink Jeep, and a garage full of Hawaiian punch, which isn't really pink, but whatever. Nobody needs a garage full of peptobismal. You ever read the oral history of MTV called I Want My MTV by Rob Tannenbaum and Craig Marks? That book rules. It says in that book, the first house in...

Bloomington, Indiana that MTV bought to give away. MTV paid $20,000 for it, but turns out the house was across the street from a toxic waste dump. So MTV had to buy another house someplace else in Bloomington, Indiana to give somebody. Tell me that ain't America. When I'm feeling glib, and I'm never not feeling glib, I tell people that I tell people that I grew up in a John Cougar Mellon Camp song. That's my big line. I grew up

in a John Cougar Mellon camp song literally called Small Town. I do believe I've mentioned previously multiple times I suspect that when I'd run down our basement stairs in our small house and our small town. When I'd run down the stairs

to play Metroid, I'd run down our basement stairs to the precise rhythm of the drum break in John Cougar Mellon Camp's Jack and Diane. Telling the same story too many times. Ain't that America? America.

A small child running to play Metroid and running down the stairs like do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do. So you are John Cougar Melanchamp. You are America. You write songs about small-town America, including one called Small Town. You write Jack and Diane.

You coined the phrase, sucking on a chili dog. outside the tasty freeze, even though no American teenager had ever organically used any iteration of the phrase sucking on a chili dog to describe the act of consuming a chili dog. But sucking on a chili dog works in the song because that's America. You pound out like 400 more rad all-time American hit songs with names like authority song. You're against it. And R-O-C-K in the USA, you're doing it. You're like really grouchy about farmers. You're grouchy on behalf of farmers. You and Neil Young and Willie Nelson just being like, stop being mean to farmers. You tell Rolling Stone that ideally

your girlfriend should be half your age plus seven years. That's the formula. John Cougar Mellon Camp really said that once. I've mentioned that before also. Made quite a big impression. You rock your mullet in your jean jacket, or perhaps your mullet in your vest with a white t-shirt. And you play your acoustic guitar super hard, right? You strum that guitar hard, American style. And you hold your acoustic guitar high over your head and strum your guitar hard vertically because that's the cooler and more American way to play it. Plus, it makes you look taller.

John Cougar Mellon Camp is 5'8. That's respectable. I thought he was shorter. I once again apologize to John. And in 1989, when you sense the winds of change blowing in America, or at least on MTV, you put out an album called Big Daddy, because that's who you are, which includes a song called Pop Singer, because that's who you ain't. John Cougar Mellon Camp starts out the video for his song, Pop Singer, by lip-sinking on the porch of a pink house.

much of the video his face is caked in white makeup, like a mime, for reasons that I am too afraid to research. Pop singer is a song about how he didn't want to be no pop singer, and you know that because he just said that. Bermatim, the lady doth protest too much, the rad gentleman with the vest over the white t-shirt, doth protest just enough. Heads up, the guy who once drove his motorcycle into a house party as part of an MTV contest, would like to clarify that he doesn't want to hang out with you backstage. Fair enough, Americans embrace contradictions. You decide who John is sassing here specifically.

Who, in John's opinion, needs weird hair to get his or her songs over? Bon Jovi, Duran Duran, a flock of seagulls. One time in the late 80s I was watching MTV with my grandpa in the room, my grandpa being more of a poker guy he played accordion he preferred Joe Beano Grandpa wanted no part of any of this shit and the video for Prince's

glam slam came on MTV and Grandpa was like what is this shit and I was like it's Prince Grandpa and Prince's songs got over no matter what's going on with his hair but I still love you Grandpa I'll tell you one thing John Cougar Millencamp is for sure not dissing Prince on pop singer

because that would be bonkers and it turns out he wasn't really dissing any other artists at all. Talking to Rolling Stone in 2013, John says, quote, this song is being realizing what kind of monster I'd created. I was going through a divorce, and I was questioning the validity and the importance of music. Things were changing. Everybody was having to kiss everybody's ass.

If you want to be on MTV, then come here and do this. All these backroom deals were getting made. I was like, I don't want any part of this. He says, I didn't want to go over to the radio station and play their Christmas party. I couldn't play that game. People went nuts on me after that record came out. You're an ungrateful fucker. Rock and roll provided you with such a great life.

I understood what they were saying, but they didn't understand what was happening behind the scenes. End quote. Okay, so he'll hang out with you after the show. just not the A&R guy. Fair enough. John Cougar Mellon Camp's wacky MTV contest era is over. You look him in the eye and tell him he's an ungrateful fucker. Hey, by the way, in that Rolling Stone thing,

John talks about pink houses too, and he says, quote, this one has been misconstrued over the years because of the chorus. It sounds very rah-rah, but it's really an anti-American song. The American Dream had pretty much pre-execrude. proven itself as not working anymore. It was another way for me to sneak something in. End quote. John knows what's up. John's got guile.

Put pink houses in the Bruce Springsteins born in the USA Memorial Fake Out political campaign anthem. Hall of Fame. Yeah, but in 1989, when I was 11 years old, and I saw John Cougar, Mellencamp on MTV, done up like a mime, singing about how he wasn't no pop singer. I thought he was condemning pop music itself. I thought John was bemoaning vapid and fake pop music and valorizing meaningful and authentic rock and roll, cheating drum machines versus honest acoustic guitars. I thought he was talking about rockism.

You know how music critics love to argue about the existential divide between passionate singer-songwriters, authentically strumming acoustic guitars, and lip-sinking pop music. Pop stars dancing vacuously in big budget videos? Are you up on the whole rockism debate? It's fascinating. I could talk about rockism all day. One could interpret pop singer as John Cougar Mellon Camp's declaration that he would no longer chase pop stardom, no longer indulge the whims of MTV, no longer chase hit songs, no longer

play the game, however you define the game. And one can assume he therefore spend the game. the 90s and beyond as a grizzled and contented veteran who transcended the need for chart success of any kind and then in 1994 john put out one of the biggest hits of his whole career yes in 1994 john melon camp no cougar anymore he dropped the cougar in 1991 having also transcended his need for the cougar in 1994 john mellencamp put out an album called Dance Naked because that's what he does. And this is John's surprise blockbuster cover of Van Morrison's Wild Night. Van Morrison is five foot five. That's all I have to say about

Van Morrison at this time. It's no judgment. It's just a number. Two numbers, two fives. And John sounds great singing Van Morrison. Sure, but what is the deal with the bassist? Who is playing bass. Dig that bass. Man, the bassist is kicking ass, dude. In fact, the bassist would like a word. Oh my goodness

gracious, it is Michelle Inde Geocello who kicks ass for a living. Michelle is a singer, a songwriter, a rad bassist, a rad princess. I'll just play everything multi-instrumentalist. A pop singer, an R&B singer, a jazz singer, a jazz singer, a folk singer, and for the moment

at least a rock singer, and she too is America, and this in fact is John and Michelle's surprise blockbuster duet cover of 5'5 Van Morrison's Wild Night, a top five hit, top three in fact, on the Billboard Hot

100, but those are just numbers two, and America runs on vibes, dude, chorus. Their harmony on the word flying there is the best. Right? This is where America peaks right here, vibe-wise. John and Michelle harmonizing on flying. John and Michelle sharing an old-timey microphone as they clown around in an exuberant MTV video. More VH1 than MTV, maybe. But nevertheless, here's an even better fly-in from earlier in the song.

Salute. I love it. This is not your problem. This is a me problem. I am aware of that. People who are too good at playing bass make me sad. That's my problem. One of my problems. I am a former bassist myself, a basis in recovery, a former basis for both a ska band and a space rock band, and I refused to play with a pick. I insisted on playing finger style because that was scare quotes funkier,

though of course I only sounded clickier. It sounded like, it sounded like an uncoordinated child was tap dancing on my bass. It was terrible. It was displeasing to the ear. And consequently, as a failed bass player to this day, super rad bass players make me sad. You know that recent song by Caroline Polichick, the pop singer called So Hot You're Hurting My Feelings? It's like that, but for bass players. So good at playing bass, you're hurting my feelings.

So who, flee, obviously. Flea from the Red Out Chili Pires. Flea hurts my feelings. That's a gimmy. That's not his fault. It's not Flea's fault. But it's true. You know who hurts my feelings?

This isn't embarrassing at all, actually. The dude who plays bass in live hurts my feelings. Yes, live, the band from Central Pennsylvania, the lightning crashes guys. the placenta falls to the floor guys and relax we are going to talk about neither placentas nor the ocean nor the sea but that song is called operation spirit parentheses the spirit of tradition and that's a great name for a rock song in my opinion and the bass player in live is named Patrick Dalhimer and he hurts my feelings Patrick all shirtless in the video going it hurts my feelings it's rude

it off. Peanut. Peanuts from 311. The bassist in 311, the reggae tinged rap rock band from Nebraska. You know the 311 song where they go, yo peanut, beat that thing. I hate that song. Beating that thing. Peanut, it's unseemly. That song is called Feels So Good.

And it does actually. But peanut hurts my feelings. This is not a you problem. This is emphatically a me problem. and I'm not trying to make my problem your problem, but I think you can imagine how sad I got upon first contact with Michelle and Degeocello. She's playing bass while singing that,

delivering that, and that extra hurts my feelings. In my memory, this was an episode. MTV Buzzbin song, but I cannot verify that now. What I know for sure is she just appeared one day on MTV, or maybe VH1, but I really thought it was MTV with a song called, If That's Your Boyfriend, Parentheses, he wasn't last night. Great use of parentheses from her 1993 debut album, Plantation Lullabies. This is 1993. This song is dropping like a bomb amidst all the grungy ass non-exam.

funky rock bands glowering it up on MTV or VH1. She was born Michelle Johnson in Berlin, grew up in Washington, D.C., and took Michelle Ndegay-Ocello as her stage name. Michelle is now spelled M-E-S-H-E-L-L-L. Some copies of plantation lullabies include a little red sticker in the upper right-hand corner, clarifying the phonetic pronunciation of Andegeocello, which he says means free as a bird, and Swahili, though you can find bitchy L.A. Times letters to the editor from 1996 about how it doesn't really mean free as a bird in Swahili. Relax, guys, it's art. And so is this. Rad song, but the extra rad bass playing makes me so sad talking to the website songfacts.com. Michelle called if that's your boyfriend,

quote, the most misunderstood song there is. It has such bravado. But it's more about how at the time I was seeing somebody and I didn't know that they had been seeing someone else. That person confronted me in public. I wasn't as pretty as they were and they just really gave a scathing attack on my person. So that's what came to

mind. Well, if that's your boyfriend, he wasn't last night. That's what that song is about. End quote. Talking to the Washington Blade in 1993, in a story with a giant pull quote over her photo that says,

I am Michelle and De Geocello. I play bass. I write music and I sing. Oh, and I happen to be a lesbian. In that story, talking about her debut record, Michelle says, quote, I hate all radio. It sucks. Everything sounds the same.

If I could just get them to listen and open up their minds, maybe they'd play it. The single is pretty, not in a bad way, accessible. It will be targeted to black radio. End quote. For our purposes today, the targeted to black radio part is important. The accessible but not in a bad way part is also important. The idea that there is a good kind of accessible but also a bad kind.

I need you to spend some time with this person's vast and wily and consistently rad discography. Michelle's second album from 1996 is called Peace Beyond Passion and uses several books from the Bible in its song titles. also includes a song called Who is He and What Is He to You? The Peace Beyond Passion album cover is a little torn, a little distressed at the edges. So it looks like an old worn out vinyl album cover, right? I love that move. That's the move that says this record could have come out in 1996 or 1973. She is a pop singer, an R&B singer, a rock and roll singer in the legit, in the classic, in the original sense of the term

rock and roll. Accessible in a good way, unclassifiable in an even better way. Dig the riff here, dude. Dig the groove. I can say dig the groove because I used to play bass with no pick, dude. Michelle's duet with John Mellencamp on Wild Night is her biggest chart hit ever by some large margin. If that's your boyfriend made the Hot 100 though, number 73. That's great. But it doesn't matter. I'm going to play you one more. This is my favorite Michelle song now. Her third album from 1999 is called Bitter. This song is also called that. Dig the despondent lack of groove, dude. That song rules so hard. We're kicking ass in the melancholy acoustic folk realm. Now, we contain multitudes. We rule multitudes.

Michelle is a multi-instrumentalist, multi-genre, multi-era polymath rock star in the narrow but also broad sense of the term rock star. She sounds fantastic on both MTV and Black Radio, even if she eludes the inherent stifling categorization that both MTV and the radio can enforce. She explains in that Washington Blade interview from 1993. She's talking about her debut, Plantation Lelibis. that this applies, I think, to anything she's done since. She says, quote, I don't think I'm political. I try not to deal with anything in the political system because it doesn't work for me as a black person. Black love in the midst of revolution. To love myself and to love other people, that's what I think this album is about. End quote. Let's try to put that another way. Let's let another unclassifiable rock star try to put that another way. And here's the way this guy puts it. We got to hug and rub a dub. We got to dance and be in love.

It sounds better when he says it. But what doesn't? My name is Rob Harvilla. This is the 112th episode of 60 songs that explained the 90s. And I have my suspicions, but do me a favor and check to see if it really took me 30 minutes to mention that this week we are talking about, are you going to go my way? by Lenny Kravitz from his 1993 album

also called that Are You gonna go my way sounds better when he says it's two I see here in a couple places that Michelle and Lenny apparently collaborated

at some point but I can't seem to find where or on what exactly but they did appear on the same bill they did both

play the Horde festival Horde in all caps stands for Horizons of Rock developing everywhere It's a pretty good acronym for a pretty great 90s festival. Blues Traveler started it.

Lenny and Michelle both played it. So there you go. Letty Kravitz is in the news. Lenny was in the news recently. Esquire Magazine did a giant feature on him in late November 2023. Big fashion spread. Lenny is 59 years old. He looks fantastic.

Lenny is still so hot it's hurting my feelings. But Lenny's also got some thoughts, some slightly and justifiably grouchy thoughts on the way he has historically been perceived and the different ways he's been perceived by different audiences. He talks about the press he typically got in 1991. He says, there was this one article that at the time said, if Lenny Kravitz were white, he would be the next savior of rock and roll. He says, I got a lot of negativity thrown at me by all these older white men who weren't

weren't going to let me have that position." He talks about Jan Wenner. Rolling Stone co-founder and a long-time dictator, Jan Wenner, he's long gone from there. But in September, Jan put out a book called The Masters, where he only interviewed white male rock stars. And then he did a disastrous New York Times interview with the great David Marquesi, where Jan said, quote, insofar as the women, just none of them were as articulate enough. on this intellectual level, end quote.

And also, quote, of black artists, you know, Stevie Wonder, genius, right? I suppose when you use a word as broad as masters, the fault is using that word. Maybe Marvin Gay or Curtis Mayfield. I mean, they just didn't articulate at that level, end quote. I was afraid to paraphrase any of that. Disaster, huge news cycle, everyone was disgusted. Yon tried to apologize. but he still got kicked off the rock and roll

Hall of Fame board or whatever. And so now Lenny, who spent a little leisure time with Yan back in the day, Lenny says, quote, the statement alone, even if you just heard about the man yesterday, was appalling and embarrassing. And just wrong, end quote. You know one of my favorite songs of all time?

Any genre, any era? Curtis Mayfield, 1970. Parentheses, don't worry. close parentheses. If there's a hell below, we're all going to go. Fantastic use of parentheses. Legitimately one of my absolute favorite songs of all time. Dig the bass groove, dude. Dig the dare I say articulation. Yeah, but Lenny Kravitz got the most attention in this S-Quire interview for talking about other magazines. Other media. The article says,

Quote, Cravitz is more mystified, though, by how he's been treated by black entertainment and culture outlets. Take Vibe Magazine, which featured a who's who of black artists in its pages when it began publishing in 1993, but waited almost a decade to put Cravitz on the cover. And it wasn't just vibe.

And then Lenny says, quote, to this day, I have not been invited to a BET thing, or a Source Awards thing. And it's like, here is a black artist who has reintroduced many black art forms, who has broken down barriers, just like those that came before me broke down. That is positive. And they don't have anything to say about it. End quote. Finally, Lenny says, he doesn't understand why he, quote, is not celebrated by the folks who run those publications or organizations. I have been that dream an example of what a black artist can do. end quote do you mind terribly if just for a second let's all do the bump bump bump up yeah i'm sorry it sounds better when he says it move slide you up just for a minute let's can't touch this mc hammer is in the news

hammer was in the news recently that was you can't touch this from 1990 and i don't have to tell you that the whole point here is I don't have to tell you that. So in November, Oakland renamed a street after Tupac. Tupac who'd, of course, started his rap career in Oakland as part of the digital underground. Oakland took part of MacArthur Boulevard and renamed it Tupac Shakur Way. And they have this ceremony. And a bunch of beloved Bay Area rappers speak at this ceremony, including E40, too short, and Richie Rich Double R. But M. C. Hammer speaks too. and Hammer calls Tupac, quote, hands down the greatest rapper ever.

There's not even a question of that, end quote. But Hammer actually goes kind of viral for saying other stuff. But you ain't never heard me talk about no stories on nobody's platform. You ain't heard me go to none of these hip hop 50. Just for the record, I got invited to every one. You may be aware that hip hop turned 50 years old. in 2023, dating back to a party DJ Cool Herk and his sister through in the Bronx in 1973, and thus we've had 50 years of hip-hop celebrations all year, including a giant

eras spanning medley at the Grammys in February, featuring Grandmaster Flash, Run DMC, Saltin Peppa, L.L. Coogey, de la Sol, Missy Elliott, and on and on and on. Questlove, from the roots, organized it, curated it. And Questlove said later, on Twitter, that MC Hammer turned him down and Questlove was heartbroken. And here now, we got Hammer explaining why he turned all this 50 years of hip-hop stuff down.

I can't get with the fateness of it all. You know what I'm saying? Like, I can do it with a young cat, but I can't come around old cats and still be pretending. What you want me to call you? Six shooter. And six shooter.

Man, come on, man. Come on, man. Ain't none of your body's turned up yet. And I'm disinclined to put too many additional words in Hammer's mouth, but the reaction to his speech here, the comments, the Twitter chatter, whatever. The reaction is mostly people saying, good for him. Good for Hammer. Hip Hop is trying to honor him now, but it's too late. MC Hammer never got the respect he deserved from hip hop, because he was too pop, too wholesome, too successful, too real, but the wrong kind of real. He refused

to indulge the call me six-shooter type fakeness. And he took a lot of a shit for it. The older tribe called Questline. Q-Tips famous line. What you say, Hammer, proper. Rap is not pop. If you call it that, then stop. I'm sorry, it sounds better when he says it, but it's still rude. And okay, look, speaking for myself, as someone who owned in 1990, as a 12-year-old, as someone who owned the MC Hammer album, Please Hammer Don't Hurt him on cassette, that's not a great album. and MC Hammer is not one of the greatest rappers of all time, but nonetheless, Hammer is another dream. Another example of what a black artist can do,

despite the stifling categorization of being a black artist or a hip-hop artist. Finally, you know who else? Politely declined, all invitations to 50 years of hip-hop events, Andre 3000 of Outcast. Andre 3000 is in the news. He did a great giant feature in GQ, Max, magazine, written by a friend of the program, Zach Barron, they did laundry. That's true. Because Andre 3000, who was legitimately in the conversations, one of the greatest rappers of all time,

Andre finally put out a solo album in November. 20 years or so, we've been dying to hear an Andre 3000 solo album or another one, depending on how you classify the love below. Never mind that now. And finally, now we get a whole new album from Andre 3000, and it's called New Blue Sun and it sounds like this. It's a great melody actually, but I can't play the whole thing and I feel bad about that. That superstar rapper Andre 3000 on flute,

and that song is 12 minutes and 20 seconds long. And the title of this song, and get comfortable for this, the title is, quote, I swear, comma, I really wanted to make a quote, rap, unquote, album, but this is literally the way

the wind blew me. Dot, dot, dot, end quote. That's the title. of that song. Swear is the only word that's not capitalized and it bothers me. New Blue Sun is a whole album of superstar rapper Andre 3000 playing the flute. Various flutes. There's no rapping whatsoever because Andre will not submit to the stifling categorization of being a yeah, okay, right, you get it. Here's the way the wind was blowing Lenny Kravitz in 1989. It's the cab driver don't.

Lenny Kravitz was born in New York City in 1964 and raised primarily on the Upper East Side. It's fine if you don't care personally what neighborhood in New York City grew up in specifically, but if you live there, it matters. His mother, Roxy Roker, was an actress who played Helen Willis on the Jeffersons. If you're too young to know what the Jeffersons is, good for you. Lenny's father, Cy Kravitz, was a TV producer and Army veteran, a Green Beretian. fact. Young Lenny started banging on pots and pans when he was three. He decided he wanted to be a musician when he was five, and he went to see the Jackson Five in concert when he was seven, and that'll do it. When he was 10, the family moved to L.A., so his mom could be on the Jeffersons. As a teenager,

he discovered rock and roll and marijuana. That'll do it also. Early attempts of becoming a rock star himself were discouraging when he wore blue eye contacts for a while and called himself Romeo Blue. per that Esquire interview, he was also apparently going to be the frontman for an all-black version of Duran Duran. And I'm relieved, of course, he didn't do that. But I would like to have heard that, honestly, if only for 30 seconds. Meanwhile, he married Lisa Bonnet, famous actress Lisa Bonnet from the Cosby Show. And if you're too young to know where the Cosby Show is, just keep it that way. Young Lenny and young Lisa have a daughter.

Zoe, maybe you've heard of her. Zoe was great on the Hulu TV version of high fidelity. I'm still pissed. They canceled that. Meanwhile, young Lisa encourages young Lenny to forge his own path to rock stardom, to be himself. No blue contacts, no Duran Duran cosplay, no pop singers faking pop songs. The way Lenny puts it of these early bad idea years, he says, quote, I was not sold on me, end quote. quite like that way of putting it, the simplicity of that, that rock stardom is first and foremost,

the fine art of selling a version of yourself to yourself. The first Lenny Kravitz album comes out in 1989 and is called Let Love Rule. And the album cover zooms in super close to get a clear shot of his nose ring. The album's largely about being in love with Lisa Bonnet, but not this song, which is called Mr. Cab Driver. And I love this song very much. Dig the bass line. here. The bass groove, dive bombing, going do do do do do on the line he thinks we're all crooks. I don't mind telling you I had a lovely moment with Mr. Cab Driver recently while dropping my 10-year-old son off at school. It's like 7.30 in the morning. I'm groggy as all hell. I'm non-verbal. I'm in a minivan in a line of many vans. My son scoots out of the car and I'm driving away and I

crank this shit up. I have a certifiable dad rock moment. I connect. Mr. Cab driver is about racism, about institutional racism, about a racist cab driver who won't pick Lenny up. This is unambiguous. This song politely but firmly rejects any other interpretation, but it's a righteously angry song all the more effective for how witty it is, how loose it is, how defiantly charismatic it is, how willing it is to see that you with a great big grin on its face. When he is playing every instrument here, and somehow you can tell, when he is a rock star, when he is sold on himself, and now you are sold on him as well. And I'm in my minivan, fully cognizant of his fury and righteousness, but I'm also wilding out and going,

and a durn. And that's the magic of rock stardom. Great song. And then I went and treated myself to a $10 coffee with like peppermint in it. Oh, I had myself a time. With Lenny Kravitz, you can miss the point, but still totally get the point. I don't know how else to explain it. The Let Love Rule album, I think about Let Love Rule the song, right?

The Descending Choir of Lenny's on the chorus of Let Love Rule, that feels more. monumental. That feels archetypal to me. That felt classic to me in 1989 when I was 11. I knew how classic rock felt long before I had any idea what classic rock was and classic rock felt like this. Cut to the Arsenio Hall Show. 1991. Lenny Kravitz on the couch. All black outfit. It's all leather or at least it's all very shiny. Fashion is not my element. This is a ultra rock star shit, okay? And Lenny's talking to Arsinio Hall, and Arsenio is once again

revealing himself to be the best late night interviewer of his era, if not the best interviewer of his era at any time of the day or night. A lot of my audience probably first got hip to you on MTV. Right. But what was

real obvious to me was that black radio when you first hit didn't play your stuff. Just to warn you the answer here, Lenny's answer is going to be way less incendiary than the question, but it's still worth making clear now that someone has always been asking the question. Why aren't you on black radio? Why don't people call you the savior of rock and roll? To repeat, it is 1991, and if you're processing rock and roll via MTV, as Arsenio suggests, then rock and roll

has meant hair metal for the past five to ten years. Rock and roll has meant Eddie Van Halen or Axel Rose. And we're right at the cusp of rock and roll suddenly meaning grunge, alternative rock, Kirk Cobain, etc. And what Lenny Kravitz knows and what Lenny is willing to tell Arsenio in a polite, careful, non-incendiary sort of way, is that Lenny is more rock and roll than either hair metal or grunge. But his kind of rock and roll already feel like classic rock in 1991, because very few of the other rock stars on MTV look like him, and very few of the other black people on MTV sound like him. It's really strange to be told, well, that's not black music when black people invented all of that, you know?

And then Lenny says music is music, and he doesn't believe in formats, and it should all be free, and black radio is coming around to him. And that's all well and good and non-incendiary. But then Arsenio, because he's a great interviewer, calls for backup. You familiar with the rock group Living Color? Yeah. They talk about that whole syndrome.

People come to them and saying, why are you doing white music? What's that about? Right. You know? What's that about? I don't know who precisely Arsenio is imitating there, but I trust his judgment.

And I will have, course take this opportunity to fucking regale you with Living Colors cult of personality because like any other sentient human, I love this song also. Cult of personalities is from 1988 from the all black New York City rock band Living Color's debut album Vivid, but it doesn't feel like an 80s song, does it? It feels canonically 90s to me. It feels emotionally 90s. Cult of personality in Dures. Cult of personality was a top five song on rock radio for every year of the 90s, despite coming out in 1988. And here, I would just tell you that Lenny's answer to Arsenio is even more diplomatic, right? Living Color is more of a metal sound. And Lenny himself doesn't get

much, why are you playing white music chatter, and his audiences are mixed, et cetera, et cetera. but if Lenny didn't relate to what Living Color were saying back then, then Living Color certainly relate to what Lenny Kravitz is saying now. And we'll get to that, but now before I fucking regale you with my personal favorite part of Living Color's cult of personality. That's the best part of cult of personality. Because Living Color singer Corey Glover

gives every syllable of the word personality, its own spotlight, but also because of the rad drums there at the end. Shout out Will Calhoun on drums. Lenny did attempt to clarify his recent comments to Esquire. He clarified that he was talking specifically about Black Award shows, about how he's always been passed over by the likes of the Source Awards, of the BET Awards.

But by then this had become a much larger conversation, and Corey Glover of Living Color had joined that conversation. So Corey puts out his own statement on livingcolor.com, and he echoes Lenny's experience. He says, living color throughout has made a conscious effort to make ourselves available to places like BET, the source, etc. He says, their response to us usually was that we did not fit in their format. Ironic, that was the same response we got from the rock and roll white entertainment organizations, celebrating diversity in the entertainment field didn't start with the blues and end with hip-hop. There have been expressions in between. George Clinton, Parliament Funkadelic, Fishbone, Tracy Chapman, Michelle and Degeocello.

Even though there has been glancing acceptance of someone like Jimmy Hendrix, Rock's influence on the diaspora has very rarely been acknowledged. Lenny was right. None of us has been awarded, let alone acknowledged, for our achievement. end quote. Corey lists the rappers living colors worked with and then he concludes quote, and yet there's barely a mention of rock's contribution to what is modern black music, let alone in rock and roll circles. It's been our experience that most people of color have no idea how deep and far reaching the influence of black people in the modern day rock and roll there are, let alone its impact on R&B and hip-hop. What we hear is, that's white people stuff.

when in fact it is not. It's hard enough to live in places where you expect white supremacy, but not from your own people. End quote. So look, do you know anyone who doesn't love, or at least like living color or Lenny Kravitz? I don't.

Lenny Kravitz has tremendously broad and enduring appeal in my experience. And maybe Lenny's right that music is music and categories don't really exist. And everyone should just be free. But I confess that all this very recent chatter makes me hear classic 90s Lenny Kravitz a little differently. He's fighting even if it doesn't sound like he's fighting. He's arguing about where he belongs, even if at the time, it sure as hell seems like he belonged everywhere and in fact already was everywhere. The second Lenny Kravitz album came out in 1991 and is called Mama Said.

The song is called Always on the Run. This is what Lenny sounded like back then. Oh geez, this song is also on Mama Said and it's called It Ain't Over Till It's Over, and this is probably the single best Lenny Kravitt song. Yes, we try and avoid hyperbolic, declarative, definitive, superlative type statements around here, but we also try to avoid laying some bullshit on you. And I suspect that it's totally laying some bullshit on you if I try to convince you that Lenny Kravitz has a better song than this one. Come on. the falsetto is this

1973 or 1991 timeliness it ain't over till it's over is the best Lenny Kravitt song reasonable people can agree on that

sometimes with somebody's best song you just got to say it's their best song and then move on Lenny sounded like that back then too Ooh

this is Lenny's Curtis Mayfield song Dig the extra rad extra falsetto That song is on Mama Set also, and it's called What Goes Around Comes Around. Lenny sounded like that back then, too. He is versatile, is my point.

He has both a genre fluidity and an era fluidity. He thrives in any atmosphere. He evokes any atmosphere. And as he progresses, he learns to create beguiling new atmospheres. Can I confess to you that I just now, like just now, realize that what he says there is, why is that such a mystery? I always thought it was words that such a mystery

and I was mishearing it, which I was, in fact, mishearing it. Why is that such a mystery? That makes way more sense. This song is called Believe, and it's from Lenny Kravitz's third album, and I always greatly admired how striking this sounded on the radio, how transformative,

how it changed the temperature and pressure and even the lighting. in the room. Believe is a quiet little masterpiece of aura. And it's also a song with a chorus that instructs you to believe in yourself. And you may find this corny, if you wish. And you may not regard Lenny Kravitz as one of his generation's most incisive lyricists, if you wish. But I'll tell you honestly that I've always quite liked the line because it's all just a game. I think anyone else would sound cynical or defeatist singing that. But Lenny can convey the fact that, fact that it's all just a game while also greatly respecting the gravity of the game.

Yeah, a pretty good song. Can I tell you something real quick? This Esquire article about Lenny that raised all this ruckus, it also quotes Jay-Z. They're apparently good buddies. And talking about Lenny, Jay-Z says, quote, I look at him as someone who stuck to their guns. This is what I like. This is the type of music I like to create. You always applaud that. Someone who stays and does, what they do and doesn't follow trends. Someone who has that confidence in what they're doing is very rare. End quote. In 2010, I was working in New York City at the Village Voice, and we ran the annual Paasinjop critics poll, where we pulled hundreds of rock critics to determine the best albums and singles of the year. And when we did it for the year 2009, the winner for best single of 2009 was

Jay Z's Empire State of Mind. You know, with Alicia Keys, New York. It's pretty good, but it's not the best Jay-Z song. It's fine. I voted for it, if I recall correctly. And we interviewed Jay-Z. In fact, Ringer Head Hancho, Sean Fennessy, interviewed Jay-Z for the paper about having the best single of the year.

And Sean asks Jay-Z, what was your favorite song of 2009? And you know what Jay-Z said? Jay-Z said his favorite song of 2009 was a tie between sex on fire and use somebody, both by Kings of Leon. Use somebody is a better song, but sex on fire is funnier. So both those songs are from 2008, but Jay-Z processes time differently. That's why he's the best. But one of the most famous rappers of all time,

being asked for his favorite song of the year and picking a rockin' ass rock song, that is delightful to me. And I bet Jay-Z fucking loves this song also. Lenny Kravitz's third album comes out in 1993 and is called, Are You Gonna Go My Way? This song is also called that. What do you remember about the video for Are You Gonna Go My Way? The drummer.

That's correct. You remember the drummer. Cindy Blackman. This is very early in Cindy's tenure with Lenny. This is so early, in fact, that Cindy did not play drums on the actual recording of Are You Going to Go My Way? The drums you are hearing are, in fact, played by Lenny Kravitz. But Cindy spent 18 years playing drums with Lenny.

And is also now better known as Cindy Blackman-Sentana because she's married to Carlos Santana. She's the best and most memorable part of this video. But I do retain like an architectural memory of the Are You Going to Go My Way video. They're in a giant dome. And right at the beginning here, a chandelier slowly descends as Lenny raises his arms messianically to the sky. There are people dancing on different tiers. It's like the Guggenheim,

the famous art museum on the Upper East Side, but like the rock Guggenheim, right? Great video. Great riff. Here's the other great riff. Finally, we arrive at the righteous, Are You going to go my way, guitar riff. This is 1993, and we are

grungging out on rock radio, though hair metal diehards are still defiantly hair-metaling out as well. And the only thing we can all agree on is Lenny Kravitz. And incidentally, Lenny Kravitz agrees with all of us about Lenny Kravitz because are you going to go my way as the song

where he finally gets fed up and decides that if nobody's going to declare him the savior of rock and roll, he's just going to have to declare it himself. Hey, which one of you said that Lenny Kravitz wasn't one of his generation's most incisive lyricists? That was rude. and also inaccurate. That's a monster opening line, dude.

I was born long ago. I am the chosen. I'm the one. If you want it, you got it. You just got to believe. And I believe it. He is indeed the Messiah. So that's why we got to try.

The Messiah of what precisely? He was born a long ago and he's the one chosen to do what precisely. save rock and roll, restore rock and roll to its past glory, usher rock and roll to the future glory it has not yet achieved. None of those, all of those. Think it over. Another question for you. Did this song sound retro to you at the time in 1993?

You read Lenny Kravitz's press ever from any era and the comparisons he gets. He gets Led Zeppelin. He gets Jimmy Hendricks. He gets Sly Stone maybe. He gets Prince. definitely. And some of these comparisons are, shall we say, superficial. Yes, Lenny is anomalous enough that we instinctively group him with the other anomalies. And it just so happens that many of those guys are among the biggest and best rock stars this planet has ever produced.

But what I also try to do in this situation is think about the song in context. I try to think about, are you going to go my way as part of yet another alternative rock block on the radio? or as part of an MTV video countdown. What sets him apart? Lenny is a black artist in a predominantly white field as mainstream rock goes. When he is evoking the 60s and 70s, musically and sartorially,

to a far greater degree than either the grunge dudes or the hair metal dudes. He is the only person on radio of any kind advising us to love and rub a dub and dance and be in love. But nobody you know dislikes this song. right who has ever been unhappy to hear this song even once lenny has valid and increasingly pointed questions about where he belongs and who is engaging with him who is celebrating him but the triumph of are you going to go my way is that the question is rhetorical of course we are of course we did

should the source awards have honored lennie cravitz back when the source awards were a thing probably Should Lenny Kravitz be glad The Source Awards kept him out of it? Oh, absolutely. Everyone loves this song, and hopefully that's enough for him. Solo. I had to get the little bass groove in there as well.

I'm a bit of a connoisseur of bass grooves. The next Lenny Kravitz record from 1995 is called Circus, and it begins with a song about how he don't want to be no pop singer. Uh-oh. Oh, boy. Talking to an Allentown, Pennsylvania, Slovenian newspaper called The Morning Call in 1996, Lenny says, quote, people look at black

music today and there's hardly any music on it. It's samplers and computers. There's no soul in that. A computer has no soul, end quote. Oh, geez. It appears that Lenny has decided to wade into the endless, fascinating, rock critical debate that broadly pits guitars against computers. The fascinating debate otherwise known as rockism fascinating yes this song is indeed called rock and roll is dead and it's overly grouchy but i like him a little grouchy sometimes you know look people will classify him however they want or exclude him from whatever classification they want to exclude him from and i don't blame him for getting grouchy about it but rock and roll is for sure not dead for as long as lennie cravitz is still around to insist that maybe it is,

because he's rock and roll incarnate too. And he's America, too. And whatever way he's going, we're going with him. We are thrilled to be joined by Elamine Abdel MacMood, author, commenter, and host of the great CBC podcast commotion, author of the book's Son of Elsewhere,

a memoir in pieces. Renaissance man, noted Swifty. Is there anything else you'd like for your intro? Does that about cover it? Lobbyist for this show to go to 150 episodes. That's the part that you missed is noted. I'm here primarily to say, Rob, we need 30 more, man. See, that's very kind of you to say.

I will say it's not that we haven't sketched that out, but the 30 songs, the 30 extra songs is where you start going like, I don't know. It's like that's where you're getting into bubble territory. And what I want to avoid is like me being like, today we're discussing new age girl by dead eye dick and just being like and I just sort of melt into the floor right I do I want to hear that that sounds good I want it I want to talk about it that's the thing that's the problem I want to hear you're like this is this is cumbersome by seven

mary three you know I got a lot of stories to tell her this song oh I got to add seven mary three see this is the problem all right fine you got it I we will I we're going to stop but I I have very much considered 150. It feels a little, that would get cumbersome. It's a nice round number. It is a nice round number. It is a very pleasing, you know, double what I originally promised is very pleasing, but 150 does have quite a ring to it. Does it not? I'm taking it under advisement. That's very kind of you. We have noted your your enthusiasm. Your opinion. Yes, enthusiasm. Exactly. My take on Lenny Kravitz has always been that no one dislikes Lenny Kravitz, right?

Like, are you going to go my way, it comes on? And everyone's like, yes, this is yes, absolutely. So it's wide. It's a very wide appeal, but maybe consequently not as deep. I don't know if they're Lenny Kravitz super fans, you know, a swifty equivalent, an army, you know, stands, however you want to term it. Like, what is your perception of how we perceive him? in. Like, does everyone like him, but maybe no one loves him necessarily? I'm the same place you are. I don't think there is, Lenny Kravitz is a perfect creature of radio, right?

In the sense that I don't know of anyone and neither do you who goes home and says, it is Lenny Kravitz hour. This is the day. I'm going to do it. I'm going to cook and put on some Lenny Kravitz. A little martini. Yeah. Okay. They're not going to do that. But if you sort of present Lenny Kravitz in any sort of a set of three songs in the radio before you got to go to commercial. No one's going to change the dial. And he's democratic. And I don't mean that derogatorily. I think he can kind of come off as a derogatory thing to say. But maybe it's a thing of like not having a particular center, you know, but I do think that he's got this kind of democratic wide appeal. And that's, that's its own skill set set, I think. It is. Do you think that's deliberate? Do you think he set

out to be, you know, for everybody, but therefore, or not necessarily of anywhere? I've, here's, maybe you can help me with this. I've never been able to come to a position on whether Lenny Kravitz is a good musician and a good artist or a bad artist. I've only been able to come to the conclusion that Lenny Kravitz is an important one, you know?

I think those two are kind of distinct, which is to say that like every, I don't know, 10 years you get an artist who takes the musical ideas of 20 years before them and goes, I'm going to take the scraps. You know, I'm going to scrap these parts for parts and say, these are the most usable and progressible musical ideas.

I'm going to make something new out of them. And then he's like, I am now the bridge to the next generation. We've taken the core parts of this musical moment and then we've evolved it to this new thing. And if you're following me down this rabbit hole, Rob, I think of Bruno Mars in the same kind of vintage. Sure. You know, I think of Billy Joel as in the same kind of vintage in many ways.

I think like Billy Joel has done that in several moments of his career. I think Olivia Rodriguez is doing something similar to that now. Ooh, that's interesting. And none of that is commentary on whether. I'm sorry. That was quite rude of you, but you're correct about Olivia Rodriguez, yes. In the sense of like she's revisiting these moments from 20 years ago. Right.

And she's like. Ever Levine, et cetera. Right. Totally. And she's progressing them to something new. And none of this is commentary on whether they're good. or bad is just that they're like, bear the distillation.

They're distilling what that was and saying, okay, we can use this and move music forward. And I think that makes them important. I don't know if that makes him good or bad. I'm going to say good. I agree with you entirely that he is not an album artist. He is not an hour-long block artist.

But I think, but like three Lenny Kravitt songs in a row is like, yes, yes, yes. you know, like I just in short bursts, I think that's where he thrives. And that's why I think, again, the wide appeal of it. I completely, like when you were talking about someone who takes 20, 30 years ago, I thought of Greta Van Fleet, right? Like, just this attempt to like resurrect Led Zeppelin, you know, in whatever time you're in. And in that realm, I think Lady Kravitz is hugely successful and hugely preferable and like objectively good. The way that he came about in the late 80s and 90s. It was like, like, like Led Zeppelin, Curtis Mayfield, you know, like a little bit of big. Sly, exactly. Sly absolutely. Like, bitches brew if you're willing to grant him, you know, that much.

And he did that. And he was successful at that. But I do think that immediately that unsticks him in time. Like, do you think he is a 90s artist in the sense that like he evokes musically the era he's in? Or is he just someone who got popular in the 90s and it's sort of incidental? I really don't think of him as a 90s artist because I think of the 90s as a very genre-specific time. And even then, you know, Lenny Kravis was someone who's trying to cross a bunch of different genres. You know, it ain't over till it's over.

It is playing in an entirely different arena than Flyaway is. You know? These are songs that, like, belong. I mean, this was a time when we had different radio formats. And Leonard Kravis was like, oh, you do that? I got something for you. Oh, you do that? I got something for you.

And in many ways, he's genre, this is what I mean by saying that, like, I think he's an important one. He was genre agnostic before it really mattered being genre agnostic. You know what I mean? Like, which is to say that, like, it was a time when genre really mattered. And he was like, no, I'm going to try all these things. I don't know if he comes to by that honestly, which is to say he's picking a lot of lanes. And you kind of go like, Lenny, stick to some ideas, man. That would be kind of nice, you know?

But the idea of like, hey, this song sounds like the Beatles and this song sounds like Prince and this song sounds like Prince and this song sounds like it was certainly made in Philly Soul. You kind of go like, Lenny, what if we just picked one idea and explored it to its fullest, you know, he's, you know what it is? The thing that always gets me about Lenny, and I don't mean this as a slight, I know we used to use this as a slight in the 90s, but he strikes me as someone who is overproduced. That's how people used to talk all the time. Totally. And by that, I mean that, like, when I say overproduce, I really mean that, like, all the songs don't sound like the initial instinct that an artist had.

They sound like they've been worked into an image kind of constantly, like over and over and over again. You look at the guy and how he dresses and you go, this was like a very intentional and very exhausting effort at looking careless. Yes. I mean, it's that. There's a lot of effort going into this. Yeah, I see effort.

Okay. All right. So, it ain't over till it's over is the one for me, right? If I had to pick one song of his. And so now I'm trying to apply that framework. Does that song sound overproduced or sort of overdetermined in its attempt to like evoke a bygone era? Like, get in this lane, get on this radio station.

Like, does that feel calculated in a way that makes it less successful for you is like an artistic product. Well, this is what I mean when I say. I don't know if he's a good artist or a bad artist. Just an important one because like the song works. These songs, all these songs, they work really well. They're very good at being mirror images of that. But then I go like, Lenny, where are you here?

This sounds like, who are you? Who are you? Who are you, Lenny? And Lenny, if you're listening, let us know. Give us a tweet. Don't at me, Lenny Kravitz, actually. You would add somebody else. Okay, so I agree with you on all of this, on just not belonging anywhere about being post-genre before

that was cool. How does that then affect this recent sort of kerfuffle that has happened where he's interviewed by Esquire and he says basically that he felt ignored, disrespected, you know, did not get the flowers he deserved from vibe, from BET, from the Source Awards, which is a very funny thing for him to be complaining about. But like, what was your reaction to what he initially said? Like, the direction that conversation went in almost feels like a separate thing. But like, did you understand?

Did you agree with his complaints that he'd been disrespected or just undercovered by BET, for example? First of all, Lenny, no one's been invited to the Source Awards in 20 years, my guy. They haven't happened. You do not want to go there. Yes. Let love rule is not the vibe at the source of words. Just stay out of it.

But also the last ones were 2005. It's not like they're still having the party and you're just not invited. But even just granting the idea that he's trying to deal with the fact, the notion that black media doesn't love Nelly, Nellie Kravitz. Oops. Sorry, Nellie, if you're listening. Yeah, my apologies to Nellie personally. No, I don't think that's true.

I think black people and black media love Lenny Kravitz. Love them in a way where someone walks into the, the cookout, you go like, hey, I haven't seen you in a while. I haven't thought about you in a while, but it sure is nice to hang out with you. Like, this is the guy who's been on the cover of Essence magazine. It's not like he's gotten no love whatsoever. But when I start to think about the genre thing, and specifically the BET Awards as a context and as a construct, I go, okay, maybe he has a point there, because BET and BET Awards bill themselves as like, this is Black music's biggest night. That's the tagline. And if you're categorically not including folks like

Lina Kravitz, I think it's because you have a very specific and maybe limited construction of what black music is. And, you know, is Mickey Guyton getting invitations to the BET Awards? You know, is Britney Spencer? Did Charlie Pride get an invitation ever in his life to the BETT Awards? I don't know. You know, so it's not like his complaint is without any basis because, you know, who did. Jack Harlow performed at the BET Awards. Kid Rock performed in the BET Awards, you know? Kid Rock is a particularly tough one. Ooh, that's tough.

And so in this particular case, I think Lenny is making a philosophical and important point, which is to say that when we construct our notion of black people, when black people who are in charge of entertainment channels, construct their notion of what is black music. They are intentionally leaving at rock and roll, which is a historical because this is the music, but we found it. This is a music that we were sort of instrumental.

Exactly right. It's instrumental in starting it, and so therefore it is black music and should be celebrated as such. So he's got a point there. I do think maybe he was casting his net a little too wide because he did get a lot of love from a lot of black media. And also it's worth noting Stephen Hill,

the program director for BET, in response, posted a photo of him of Lenny Kravitz at 106 in Park, which does prove that Lenny has been on BET at least one time,

but maybe not of the award show, and maybe that's the point he's trying to make. I think that's what Lenny immediately said, is like, I was talking specifically about the BET Awards and about the idea,

like you said, like this is Black Music's biggest night. And BET, to my mind, and I think a lot of people, it's a rap and R&B, station, you know, entity. Like, it doesn't make sense to have Lenny Kravitz there, even though it should make sense.

And so I can understand Lenny's side of that, but it can I also understand BET being like, first of all, here's a photo of us together and what the hell are you talking about. But second of all, like, he doesn't make sense, you know, out of BET. Yeah. So I get both sides of that. But it's the BET has sort of like claimed the black brand, you know? Exactly. And it should be reasonable, I think, for a black artist to say, well, how dare you actually claim all that territory when you're not going to actually, you know, pay service to all of that territory?

I was talking to a few years ago I was talking to Riannon Giddens, the great folk and Americana artist Rianan Giddens, you know. And I was like, trying to talk to her about this, about why we don't often think of folk music, Americana music. Country, right, yeah. country as as black music. And she said there's, to her, there's something kind of interesting about this notion of hip hop and R&B as a naturally progressive kind of music. And folk and Americana, and to a certain extent rock and roll, they're nostalgic genres of music.

They are genres of music that look back, right? When was the last time that you heard a new rock song, Rob? I mean like a new rock song. Because you talk all the time about the rock. charts being frozen in 1994. In 1990, yeah. Exactly. Okay.

And Riannon's point, and I think it's a good one, is that it makes sense for black people to say there's nothing for us in nostalgia. We are not going to look in that direction. We are going to be forward looking and that means thinking of black music as hip-hop, thinking of black music as R&B and genres that are pushing into the future. Because that's interesting because like Riannon's thing. is like the banjo is fundamentally a black music instrument. And like Lenny is sort of the same with the electric guitar.

Yes. Right. Like, okay, that makes a lot of sense to me. That's very clarifying. I was really struck by Corey Glover from Living Color, like jumping into this conversation immediately and saying, yes, I agree with Lenny. You know, living color. Like another group, like cult of personality comes on and everyone's like, yes, absolutely.

Oh, what a jam. Yes. What a jam. But like, Living Color specific. saying, like, he said something like, you know, I expect this, I expect white supremacy from like some corners, but not this corner, like saying very explicitly that like he felt the same, felt disrespected, felt treated as not black music because they were a rock band full of black people, but that's, that was different to people and that they didn't track as black music to most

people. And that still upsets him. And he's right. And Lenny's right and Rianna's right. They're all sort of right to be looking from the outside and saying, as a construct, the idea of this being the black entertainment television and we're celebrating the best in black music and you're choosing to limit it to this construction, you are doing a disservice to black people who are working in other genres that you don't end up celebrating or noting, you know, for all the accomplishments that they've done. And I think Lenny's slightly different in this case in the sense that, like, you know, I don't know if Corey Glover walks into any room

at the BETT Awards and people go like, hey, that's Cory Glover. Lenny Kravitz, man. This is one of the coolest dudes on the planet. The giant scarf, you know, it's like there he is. Exactly right. Yeah. Like the brand has sustained, if you will. And so despite all of that, it makes a lot of sense for

him to say, well, it's a little crazy that you guys have been going on for this long and so have I, and I've never been at your show. Jack Harlow this guy this is the one yeah no offense

well okay kind of offensive jack on I was thinking about fishbone right you know like doing the

red hot chili peppers thing like parallel to the red hot chili peppers but not enjoying anywhere near that level of

success and when I listen to fishbone now I can hear that frustration I can hear that we don't really belong anywhere sense but I don't

get that off Lenny's music right and so I was wondering if do you hear in active frustration and sort of a don't fit in anywhere, you know, sense from like rock, black rock stars, whether it's Lenny, whether it's living color, whether it's fishbone, whether it's like turn style or something. Like, is this an active thing that you hear in music? Not in Lenny's music,

but that's, I think, partially because of the musical lineage that he's chosen to adopt. I mean, Lenny Kravitz is out and out a hippie for all intensive purposes. He's not much of a fighter. He wants to get away and wants to fly away, Rob. He's not... He's not... He's not the kind of guy who you expect to be, you know, leading this particular revolution

or being particularly, like, outwardly angry about it, but you do expect him to sort of like stew in the corner and say, you know, my invitation get lost in the mail or something. And I don't necessarily... I think we often forget this because he's been so eternally cool and because, like, he came out with the music video

like four months ago. and he was, like, naked for half of it. And you go, like, this guy looks incredible. He looks like he's 25. Very well-preserved human being. Very impressive physique. Particularly because, Rob, Letty Kravitz, is a boomer. He's born in 1964.

The man is the tail end of the boomer generation, which is a different aesthetic. It certainly is. He's a stealth Gen Xer. You know, he's sort of, like, bored of the Gen X-X-Rexter. train. But he's, aesthetically and musically,

he's very much of the sort of boomer mentality and the peace and love sort of hippie movement. Of course. That manifests

itself in his music so much. Sure. Do you think Zoe Kravitz being a huge star now makes him feel older or

younger, generally? I, well, at 60 years old, but somehow looking like 41 his entire life.

Yes. Yeah. He's looked 40. since he was 21 and then he's past that age. There we go. And still, you know, maintain that cool, young, hip age. I think to me, he's basically thinking of himself as like outside time, you know? Like, sure, his daughter is now one of the biggest movie stars, but he's like, time doesn't

really, like, apply to me. And you know what? I kind of buy his argument. I totally buy his argument. I was thinking about MC Hammer in a similar mode, like all these 50 years. of hip hop celebrations, like he's not there. And like he had sort of a semi-viral moment where he's like, they invited me to all of them, like, I'm not doing that.

I can't deal with the fakeness. And people are like, you know, hip-hop, you know, black music rejected MC Hammer as like too pop as too family friendly, you know, the Adams family, the whole bit. And like, it's understandable now that MC Hammer is still salty about the way that he was perceived. And I was trying to decide how parallel the Lenny Kravitz situation was to the that. I think there's less resentment, usually, to Lenny's perception of things. I think that Lenny has been more comfortable, like being all things to all people, but it did, there was a parallel

there a little bit of just not belonging, not being accepted by the genre that you think you are. Well, also, we should also note that like, it's not like Lenny came at the gate and people are like, this guy, he is phenomenal. We should vaunt him to the top of the charts and give him all the critical reviews. I mean, all the reviews of when Lenny first came out were like, this is kind of pastiche, and we're not really sure whether it's good or bad pastiche. And so I think like time can heal a lot of things, but maybe can't heal that in the sense of, hey, why would I want to be celebrated by the same people who made fun of me, who thought that this was just kind of like put on, which, listen, it still might have been put on. I don't want,

you know, like, I don't want to let him off those charts. charges. I agree. But it makes sense for him to say, I don't want to be celebrated by those institutions, even though his career is endured, because I kind of think it was improbable that his career has endured, right? Like, you don't really think of Lenny Kravitz. I don't really think of a Lenny Kravitz like artists as an artist who's going to, who's going to have a career that spans four decades, you know? Like, when I think of like my favorite Lenny Kravitz, I sort of, I maybe prefer the Imperial era Lenny Kravitz, which is to say, you know, like the fly away, the once, fly away to once you dig in kind of stretch, which is at that point, he's already

doing the best, the greatest hits sort of collections. At this point, he wins four Grammys back to back to back to back, which is quite wild if you kind of think about it, but they're all for the same kind of song, you know, like fly away and then American woman. American woman, very important, yes. And then, you know, again, and then once you dig in, those are the songs that won him that. And there's a, you know, the Miles Davis quote that it takes you a long time to sound like yourself.

It's like, that's the period of time where, like, Lenny was like, oh, this is a zone I shall occupy. And I don't know if there's like a long memory for that kind of place. I don't know if that's a place that we're going to be celebrating 20 years from now, you know? it's certainly the case that like the the record five his fifth record in 1998 that's the one

with fly away an american woman and there is no comparable hit to either of those from this point forward there's good songs like he didn't fall off and as you say like he would started getting more institutional respect but like looking at the records he's put out since the 2000s like none of these permeated you know this is again why i say like wide but not deep you know like nobody's riding for these records as like album length, you know, brilliant artistic statements. But like he has remained famous and has remained like largely,

you know, universally, it seems liked, despite not having another hit on that scale, you know, now for 20 plus years. Like it's a cool little trick. It's partially partly about how good he looks now.

100% as a part of it. But also, like I have to say, I was at a, I was at an event at a hotel in Toronto. like, I don't know, maybe like two months ago. And they were ushering me to this floor, and then we got off on the sixth floor

or the Beecho Hotel in downtown Toronto. And then there's just like the person who was like taking us to the event, just very like offhandedly was like, hey, this floor was designed by Lenny Kravitz. And I just turned to him and was like, what the fuck are you talking about? What do you?

The sixth floor was designed by Lenny Kravitz. This is Lenny's floor. Okay, so what it looked like? What is a, what is a lady for? It's very hard to tell you, He was all black paint, you know, and very dark and dim colors. The furniture was kind of neat. Very low, you know, like these giant, like, describing these giant chandeliers that were much lower to the table than you think a chandelier should be, you know?

Like, why do we need a light in here? Right. Okay. Oh, no. I would hit my head, and I'm much shorter than you. That's, I, you know. So it was inexplicable to me. But, hey, that's the Lenny Kravitz aesthetic. I want to go there now.

I want to see, even if it's disappointing, I want to go to the Lenny Kravitz hotel floor and just experience a lower center of gravity than really is advisable. Please do. That's phenomenal. Have I convinced you that he's good? This is important to me for some reason.

Are you still struggling with this question of good or bad? I don't get bad. I can totally understand Indifferent. Indifference is totally viable outside of the Blockbuster singles. But I do think that he succeeds at what he's trying to do, and it's maybe that his aims are humbler ultimately than people wish they were. The place where I hear it most, funnily enough, is fly away, which is I go like, this is good, you know,

and it's good in a way that was like unplanned for. It feels like this is actually like, this is another thing that is authentic to you, you know? It sounds like something else, but it sounds like it's authentic to you. And you kind of get that a little bit when you hear about the story of how the record label didn't want to put fly away as a single. And he was like, I think you guys should give it a chance

and sure enough they were wrong about that. I think Lenny Kravitz is a guy who got to learn in public which is beautiful and good and you don't really get that a lot anymore. And as he was learning in public every once in a while he had one of those songs I was like, hey, do that again.

That's kind of really good. You know, we put a lot of pressure on people to arrive cooked. And Lenny was, I think, in an era and in a moment where you got a chance to go like, try that again. Try it again. Where else are you going to go? And got a chance to distill all those influences.

You know what? You've convinced me. Lenny Kravitz is good. I'm on board. I'm on board with this. Yeah. So does, just to wrap, does fly away feel like this is who I am?

Do you think that he ever got to the point where we delved into the actual soul of the actual Lenny Kravitz? Or as he's sort of done the pastiche thing just very successfully for so long that we've accepted that who he is, you know, is just picking and choosing amid eras.

There's a great YouTube video of Lenny Kravitz strolling through New Orleans and as he's strolling through New Orleans, he hears like a choir in the street perform, and not a choir, a high school band in the street, performing flyaway. And he decides to just go. go and stand in front of them and vibe as he listens to his own song, sung to him.

And to me, I kind of think, like, this is the essence of who Lenny Kravitz is. He's someone who wants to, like, create a nice thing and give it to the people and go, hey, are we having a nice time? We don't need to, like, put this on a Mount Rushmore of anything. This is, this is who I am in this moment and hopefully does something for you. And as like the lead guitarist of this high school band breaks into the solo, he's like looking at him being like, I was you once, man. It's like a beautiful moment of like, this is all Lenny Kravitz ever needed to be. I do think you hear that in flyway.

You go, he's found peace here. And I think I want to accept him as he is. That's a lovely sentiment. The sixth floor of what hotel? What's the name of this hotel? I'm going to get on trip advisor right now and look this up. The Bisha Hotel, I believe. I'm pretty sure it's a sixth floor.

But yes. Okay, that would be really embarrassing if you shut up. It's the fourth floor, dude. I don't know what's wrong with you. Yikes. You got it wrong. Yikes. Yeah.

All right. Let's go hang out there. It's so awesome to talk to you, Elimeon. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you so much for having me. This has been a delight. Thank you. Thanks very much to our guest this week, Elamine Abdel Mahmood.

thanks very much to Chloe Clark for production help. Thanks as always to our producers, Justin Sales and Jonathan Kerma, and thanks very much to you for listening. And now I must insist that you go listen to Are You Going to Go My Way? By Lenny Kravitz. We'll see you next week.