60 Songs That Explain the '90s - “Chop Suey”—System of a Down

Episode Date: October 23, 2024

Join Rob in watching a mosh pit from a safe distance away while we celebrate System of a Down’s “Chop Suey.” Along the way, Rob discusses tension amongst band members, their potent political messages, and Rick Rubin’s impact on the band. Later, Rob is joined by Bandsplain’s Yasi Salek to further discuss System of a Down’s impact, their hometown of Glendale, and much more! Host: Rob Harvilla Guest: Yasi Salek Producers: Jonathan Kermah and Justin Sayles Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Did you know that scientific studies have found most people lie once every 10 minutes? In my new podcast, Truthless, I'm talking to people about the lies, they tell, from faking illnesses in high-pressure moments to making up stories on national TV. From Spotify and the Ringer Podcast Network, I'm Brian Phillips. Listen to Truthless on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. I stood at the edge of the mosh pit, right, in a defensive crouch with my feet planted, my elbows jutting out, gritting my teeth, stealing my resolve, braced to withstand the onslaught. But of course, I'm standing at the edge of the onslaught because I'm drawn to the onslaught.

I'm enticed by the mosh pit, transfixed by the flailing bodies and the swung fists and the stomping boots. and the spit in the sweat. E, gross, but then I inch a little closer, right? But never too close. And I think about the kind of person I would have to be to actually get in there, to get in the pit, to join the fray, to mosh, to be a dude in the mosh pit. How terrifying and how punishing, but how exhilarating thou would feel,

the brutal but tender communion, the elation, the catharsis. and I think real hard about getting in there. I think I'm going to do it. And 30 seconds go by. And I think, here I go, this is happening. I'm going to mosh. I'm doing it. And 60 seconds go by.

And I think, come on, man, do it, do it, come on. And finally, I'm like, nah. It is New Year's Eve, 1995, and 2000 sullen, sweating, stomping teenagers are packed into the Agora Theater in Cleveland, Ohio. And at the stroke of midnight, at the blistering dawn of night, of my own. 1996, the industrial rock band Filter kicks off their incendiary set with a song called

Spent. This song is called Spent. I totally forgot the name of this song. But this is the first song Filter played that night. And I'll remember this show Forever. God lives underwater, opened. And so I'll love this song forever, even if I never remember the name of this song. It'd be like that sometimes. The evening begins with a cathartic scream. I will always cherish this song that starts with the dude from Filter going, ah, great song. Nobody screams like the dude from Filter. I remember driving with all my buddies

to this show, three or four or five or six, sullen sweating teenagers packed into a Saturn, driving from the burbs into Cleveland. And on the highway, we passed a giant factory on the right with a giant fireball bursting out of a giant pipe for some factory type reason. And I thought that's the coolest thing I've ever seen in my life. And this is going to be the coolest show I've ever seen in my life. And I wasn't wrong. Did people actually mosh during the first song,

Filter played? The song? Probably not. Everyone definitely moshed during this one, though. Yeah, people definitely moshed during Hey Man, Nice Shot, from Filters, 1995. debut album short bus, but not everyone, Mosh, or at least not me. I am not that guy.

I am not the dude in the Mosh pit. I will never be that guy, but I will be the guy who coweres at the edge of the pit of those guys, imagining that I'm that guy. And I do think that counts for something. I am the guy who helps establish the perimeter around those guys. Didn't Mosh at the Seven Dusts show either. December 15th, 1998, the Odean in Cleveland. I don't remember most of this show.

Godsmack opened and Seven Dust collectively drank a great deal of whiskey. But I do remember the Seven Dust song Prayer from their self-titled 1997 debut, the colossal communal warmth of prayer that accentuated the drunken, joyous moshing in which I did not participate. No, thank you. Didn't mosh at the Deftone show. either. We're back at the Agora in Cleveland, July 10th, 2000. This band scared me. Still does, if you want the truth. There is something about the terrifying intensity of Def Tones that still unnerves me. Even now, I feel like I only cower at the precipice of the abyss of this band.

Great band. Did people mosh during Bored from Deftone's 1995 debut album, Adrenaline? They better of. I do very specifically remember not moshing while I watched all the people moshing during this part of a song called Root. I love that part. The weird mix of joy and fury conveyed

by the deaf tones guy going yeah, nobody screams like that guy either. I enjoyed thinking extra hard about possibly moshing while I was not moshing during that part. Didn't mosh at the Slayer show either. Surprise.

Oh my God. Can you imagine me moshing during war ensemble during the Slayer show at the Warfield in San Francisco, either 2003 or 2004? I don't remember, but Yeagermeister sponsored it. I would have died. I would have physically died within three to five seconds. The CSI Lab would have swept my remains into a sandwich bag. How do you think I would have died? Exactly. Would my skeleton have liquefied or would I have been only skeleton? What a way to go, though. Yes, he died doing what he loved, getting pounded into cowboy sauce in three to five seconds during war ensemble. I spent the whole Slayer show just watching The Pit. Mesmerized by the pit. The chaos, but also the elegant logic. The violence, but also the vicious harmony. That pit looked like hell on earth, but also like Valhalla. You know who else knows what I'm talking about, but also actually knows what I'm talking about? Guy named Dave Williams.

Dave was in a metal band out in Dallas, Texas, and he decided to write a song about the pit. Dave talked about this song in an interview with the Fused TV metal show Uranium. He says, quote, it's about my perspective when I look out and see the pit. It's about forgetting everything that has happened to you that week. Leave your bullshit at the door and get it all out. But you have to have respect for the others in the pit. If you push them down, you have to pick them back up. I'm not going to get behind the violence thing.

It is violence, but there is a certain amount of respect and a code. You can knock someone's head off, but you should also look at that guy at the end of the night and say, dude, I had a blast. they have a certain amount of respect for each other. End quote. That's too many words to fit into a song, though. So Dave found a simpler way to put it. Lean in, though, because first, he's going to whisper it. And then Dave and his buddies in the Dallas metal band Drowning Pool,

stop whispering. Yes, bodies from Drowning Pool's debut album, Sinner, released on June 5th, 2001. If you only remember this part of bodies, the chorus of bodies, I'm here to tell you that there are other excellent parts of the drowning pool song, Bodies. I enjoy the pre-chorus very much.

Fun fact for you, this is a musicological fact. Any song that involves counting in the lyrics is automatically good. That's good shit right there. You know what's awesome and also metal as hell, counting. I know it sounds like I'm joking, but I'm actually not joking. That's great songwriting.

Van Morrison never wrote a song with as much sheer visceral forward momentum as bodies. What are the best counting songs of the 2000s? I'm not going to get distracted by this. No way. Top three counting songs in the 2000s. I can do this in 10 seconds. Number three, Bodies by Drowning Pool. Number two, one, two, three, four by Feist. And number one, For all you fellas out there with ladies to impress, it's easy to do. Just follow these steps. One. The best counting song of the 2000s is Dick in a Box.

The bridge to bodies as well. When's the last time you heard the bridge to this song? Drowning Pool get a little saucy on the bridge. Drowning Pool, break it down. Skin to skin, blood and bone. You're all by yourself, but you're not alone. That's beautiful. Truly. I'm serious. That's a fantastic description of a mosh pit. That's a very metal, but also sincerely moving way to put that. Drowning Pool are a promising new band in the proudly ignominious musical genre known as

new metal, metal with rap, overtones, and extra broish tendencies. That's NU with an umlaut hyphen metal in the written word new metal must be styled like this and you with an umlaut hyphen metal hear me now and believe me later new metal is poorly regarded new metal gets a bad rap for any number of honestly kind of legitimate reasons but the derision heaped upon new metal critically and socially only heightens that sense of togetherness in the pit the people who love this music anyway are all by themselves, but they're not alone. And it's an awfully big mosh pit. It's a big tent. Way more people love this music than the people who hate this music are willing to admit. Bodies is a

legit hit single, peaking at number six on Billboard's mainstream rock chart on August 25th, 2001. Number one on Billboard's mainstream rock chart that week, it's been a while by Stained. No E and Stained. S-T-A-I-N-E-E-E-E-E-N-E-E-E. There is no counting in the song. It's been a while unless you count me counting the seconds until that song is over. That's so rude. Man, I got no problem with that song.

I just thought that was funny. I apologize. And then Bodies turns up on another list. A list of more than 150 songs compiled by Clear Channel, the Radio Ultra Conglomerate, also based in Texas. Antonio, that in 2001 controls nearly 1,200 radio stations reaching 110 million listeners nationwide. And this list is Clear Channel's list of songs that maybe should not be played on Clear Channel radio stations in the aftermath of the terrorist attacks on September 11, 2001.

This is a leaked internal Clear Channel memo. This is not an official document or public decree. This was framed as a suggestion to DJs of songs not to play. And not every clear channel station complied. But nonetheless, this is a list of around 165 songs, depending on how you count, that might inadvertently cause offense in this terrible, traumatic new context. The Drowning Pool song Bodies, whose chorus is just a guy singing, Let the Bodies hit the floor over and over

is on this list of songs that maybe people don't want to hear right now. Back in 2016, I wrote an article for The Ringer about the Clear Channel 9-11 list, and I talked to a bunch of dudes in the bands who were on it, including Drowning Pool. Dave Williams, the band's lead singer who co-wrote bodies, he died of heart failure on August 14th, 2002.

He was 30 years old. So I talked to the band's longtime guitarists, C.J. Pierce who wrote the guitar riff for bodies. We talked about Dave a little bit, and we talked about, you know, other stuff. He says, I was laying in my bunk on the bus, a little hungover from the night before, of course. This is rock and roll. I had a couple drinks, whatever. And Clint Lowry from Seven Dust comes running on my bus. They're bombing our country. I just remember him yelling, they're bombing our country. End quote. Soon thereafter, Drowning Pool and Seven Dust had a show in Wisconsin.

Clint says, it was an arena. It was a big show, and a lot of people showed up. The fans showed up, so we're going to play. I remember we did a moment of silence. Each band, we still played the show. End quote. I think about those people in Wisconsin at that show that night. All piled into an arena, back when everyone everywhere worried that their city might be the next target.

Everybody's scared or shocked or confused or grief-stretched. or enraged or numb or any of those, all of those, or something else entirely. I think about all the people in the pit that night. All by themselves, but not alone. It's a fun song. It's a silly song, even. Really. But it's a pretty fabulous soundtrack to leaving your bullshit at the door and getting it all out.

But now Bodies is on this weird, vague bonkers list of songs that have been pulled from like two billion radio stations. More than 150 songs on this list, including Filters Hey Man, Nice Shot, which is very famously about the infamous 1987 public suicide of Bud Dwyer, a politician in Pennsylvania. You go look that up if you want.

Richard Patrick, aka the filter guy, spent a lot of the 90s trying to convince journalists that this song was not about Kirk Cobain, which it wasn't. Theoretically, Filter are used to this, to Hey Man, nice shot being unpleasantly re-contextualized.

But this clear channel list quickly gets way weirder. In this suddenly fraught lyrical vein of taking shots, a third song on this list of songs people maybe don't want to hear after 9-11 is Pat Benatar's hit me

with your best shot. And maybe immediately this has all gotten objectively absurd. That hit me with your best shot, a jaunty and deletreement. and very obviously non-violent 1980 pop smash could be seen 21 years later

as inappropriate in the face of 9-11. But then again, I just read an interview with Pat Benatar from 2022 where she says she's not playing, hit me with your best shot on her current tour in deference to the families of the victims

of mass shootings. Pat says, quote, I can't say those words out loud with a smile on my face. I just can't. End quote. These things are never simple. Simple, delightful pop songs

are never just simple, delightful pop songs once the real world gets a hold of them. You know what else is on the Clear Channel 9-11 do not playlist? Imagine. The idea here, I guess, being that Imagine now sounds

so peaceful and utopian that it borders on naive. It sounds like John Lennon is taunting us. Plus, nobody wants to hear anybody sing the words, imagine no religion right now. But I shouldn't assume that I know what these Clear Channel people were thinking. Assuming how people think is how we got into this mess. I am fascinated by the Clear Channel 9-11 list.

Again, this is a memo. The New York Times reported on it at the time, and Snopes.com later confirmed that this list did exist, but it was not official. It was not binding. and it was certainly never meant to be made public. It first leaked to the trade magazine hits Daily Double, and the Times interviewed anonymous and embarrassed Clear Channel employees

in a story that characterized the list as a corporate memo gone wrong due to a, quote, overzealous regional executive, end quote. But I have a tremendous amount of sympathy for that overzealous regional executive. This list is heartbreaking and a little appalling. and also in the blackest possible sense, just a little bit funny. If, hypothetically, you need to laugh to keep from crying. To my mind, this list is simultaneously the most corporate and the most painfully human document ever generated by capitalism.

This is a bunch of people in various office buildings working for a notoriously monopolistic radio empire during a singularly awful moment in our nation's history. and they're trying to predict what random pop songs might upset people and writing down the names of those songs and then attempting to censor them. And the censorship part ain't funny. But then again, I seem to remember back then doing a really tremendous amount of laughing to keep from crying. My name is Rob Harvilla. This is the fourth episode of 60 songs that explain the 90s, Cole in the 2000s. and this week we are discussing chop suey by the Los Angeles metal band System of a Down. From their 2001 album, Toxicity, released on September 4th, 2001, exactly one week before 9-11. Less than two weeks after 9-11, on the Billboard album chart dated September 22nd, 2001, toxicity will be the number one album in America, despite the fact that this album's lead single,

Chop suey is getting basically no radio play because it's on clear channels do not playlists. Because the chorus of this song starts with the words, I don't think you trust in my self-righteous suicide. And a good percentage of the rest of the song is very aggressive screaming. Okay. Sorry for the screaming. A lot of screaming this time. A lot of hootin and hollering.

But it's the whiplash dynamics that really, put this song over the top. The gentle loveliness of the harmonies on I cry, T you up for all the hootin and hollering. I feel like I overuse the expression. There's a lot going on here, but musically and emotionally and sociologically, there has possibly never been more going on here than here. So the Clear Channel 9-11 Do Not playlist is usually presented alphabetically. right so start with a including seven acDC songs from dirty deeds done dirt cheap to a song of theirs i'd never heard of literally called safe in new york city and end with z she's not there by the zombies oh my god i'd never really processed she's not there on this list this list is wild man but in my head i divide this radio

band list into four tiers four categories there's the night naive and or ironic tier, songs too utopian for their own good. So that's Imagine. And Louis Armstrong's, what a wonderful world. And the Beatles, Obla Di, Oblada, just to stick it to Paul McCartney also. And finally, just to be safe, ironic. By Alanis Morissette. What else should we maybe not play on the radio right now?

There's a whole tier that's just songs about planes, fly away by Lenny Kravitz, aeroplane by the red-hot chili peppers, Learn to fly by foo fighters, leaving on a jet plane by Peter Paul and Mary. Then there's the hit me with your best shot to your songs from any era, any genre, with no real musical menace to him, but way too much of a confrontational vibe, a war vibe, a certain morbidity.

Pat Benatar's love is a battlefield shows up here. Also, you dropped a bomb on me. by the gap band, great balls of fire, dust in the wind, another one bites the dust, both the Bob Dylan and Guns and Roses versions of knocking on Heaven's Door. Somewhere in this category is where our overzealous regional executive gets like super overzealous. It's all a bit galaxy-brained. St. Elmo's Fire? Gonna be a man in motion.

Maybe calm down, but finally, a lot of this list. A lot of the songs Clear Channel informally banned after 9-11 are simply metal songs. Metal, new metal, hard rock, whatever. Heavy songs with violent and or political overtones. I keep saying there's over 150 songs or 165, depending on how you count, because this list bans every rage against the machine song. All of them. That's not very hard to interpret as a political maneuver.

a full catalog rage against the machine band feels a wee bit partisan. But pure aggression was enough to get you on the list. Slipknot, just being slip not, was enough. Slipknot from the craggy shores of Des Moines, Iowa. Nine guys in the band at this point, but it sounds like there's 95 guys in the band. They all got numbers instead of names.

They're all wearing terrifying, grotesque serial killer-type mask. It's all total, brutal, mega-percussive chaos. You know that tweet that's like, if I pay $40 for a haunted house, I better die? Slipknot is the haunted house where you die. That song is called Wait and Bleed from Slipknot's self-titled 1999 debut album. Slipknot are not a radio-friendly band in the classic sense of radio-friendly, which I would define as the song on the radio isn't trying to put. you in a coma, but two of the radio-friendlyer slip-knot songs make the do-not playlist. And the second

one is called, and this ain't going to help, left behind. We all got left behinds. We let it all slip away. I saw a slip-not once at Madison Square Garden, but I was way up in the nosebleeds, right? And I looked down at the giant moss pit on the floor, and I thought, that looks like fun, but I would die in less than two seconds. Left behind is the lead single on the second Slipknot album called Iowa, which came out on August 28, 2001. So look, it will not harm Pat Benatar's career. If they stop playing, hit me with your best shot and loves the battlefield on the radio for a little while. She's fine, but Slipknot are promoting a new album. This Clear Channel Band is informal and sporadically applied and world historically ridiculous, but it matters. It hurts if you're a young band that needs all the help, all the airplay you can get, even if you're arguably the radio unfriendliest band that ever existed. C.J. Pierce from Drowning Pool says bodies lost all its momentum as a huge hit single. He told me, quote, to be honest with you, I don't think we ever really recovered from that. But again, more important things going on than our stupid song.

end quote. For that ringer article, I talked to Corey Taylor, lead vocalists for Slipknot. He's number eight. And Corey says, quote, this is back when radio really meant something. It was still a viable way, honestly, to make a living and to get your music out there. And when that went away, for lack of a better term, it felt like such a dick tease. End quote. That's what he said. It's metal. In the beginning, anyway, regardless, of what was going on in the world. These fellas didn't get played on the radio at all. Try her philosophy.

Try her philosophy. Try her philosophy. Try her philosophy. Try her philosophy. Die for her philosophy. Die her philosophy. Die. Spiritually, culturally, and geopolitically,

System of a Down knew what was up in the world. Long before the world figured out what was up with System of a Down. That song is called Sweet P. that sweet S-U-I-T-E-E-E. There is a fundamental silliness to this band as well, a silliness inextricable from their badassness. System of a Down formed in Glendale, California in 1994, by 1998,

when System of A Down released their self-titled debut album that begins with a song called Sweet-Hifin P, the band consists of Serge Tonkian on vocals, Darren Malakian on guitar and occasional vocals, Shavo Adagian on bass, and John Dolmayan on drums. All four members of System of a Down are Armenian-American. When the band finally play their first ever show in Armenia, in Yerevan, the capital of Armenia, for a crowd of 50,000 people on April 23rd, 2015, Search Tachian will later tell the Guardian, quote,

the overwhelming feeling was of belonging. It felt like we were created 21 years earlier so we could be there that night. End quote. That show in Armenia in 2015 was part of a larger public observance of the centenary of the Armenian genocide, which began in 1915, and in which as many as 1.5 million Armenians were killed in the midst of World War I. The last song on the first, the self-titled system of a down record, addresses the global failure to formally acknowledge the Armenian genocide. This song is called Pluck, P-L-U-C-K,

which stands for politically lying, unholy, cowardly killers. Come for the cool drum fill, stay for the rest of it. And when I was a younger, dumber, rye. critic. I always thought there was a playbook, right, for politically impassioned rock bands where you sneak subversive political messages into your fun, loud, violent, silly, mosh pit-friendly rock songs, and the kids don't even realize what they're moshing to. But is that really what's happening here? We're back to the whole rage against the machine conundrum, right? Where it's unclear, to me anyway, if all the kids at the raid show in 1996, screaming, fuck you, I won't do what you tell me.

are aware of who is being addressed exactly, or at least who rage against the machine are addressing. And generally, there is plenty of dissonance in rock and roll, in all of popular music. Sure, you could argue that a song, any song by anybody at any time, is about whatever you think it's about while you're listening to it. Sure. But that's between you and the song.

That's not the band's problem. Our system of a down writing rad, fun, violent, frivolous, Mosh Pit songs and then secretly shrewdly Trojan horsing in references to the Armenian Genocide? Or could it be, Rob, that System of a Down are writing very explicit, unapologetic songs about, say, the Armenian Genocide and the Turkish government's culpability in the Armenian Genocide that just happened to also be rad fun, violent Mosh Pit songs. Misinterpret this, pal. Pretty much every YouTube comment on this song, Pluck, is marveling at Serge Tonkian's very impressive screaming. So it seems rude of me.

Not to... All right, buddy. Let her rip. Do you want to hear the song where Serge sounds like an evil witch? This song is called Darts. I don't think that's an acronym for anything, but let's not rule it out. Don't go in this person's gingerbread cottage. Do you want to hear the song where Serge sounds like a goat?

Like a goat in the mosh pit? You ever see that meme, those photos of the goat in the front row at the metal show? The goat standing right in front of the dude, the trucker hat, screaming into a microphone. It's good stuff. Go look that up sometime. This song is called Kubert. That's capital C-U-B-E, lowercase, R-T. Probably that's an anagram for something.

Let's ask the goat. Okay, got it. I understand that song perfect. now. These songs are all from the extra weird and extra fun second half of the first system of a down record. This is 1998. New Metal is ascendant and not everybody's too psyched about that, but these fellas, System of a Down, are not quite yet the poster boys and or the punching bags for New Metal. Their first self-titled record goes gold. It sells half a million copies by the year 2000, but System of A Down are not yet legit hitmakers. They're not for lack of trying.

I'm quite partial to a song on this record called No. Don't try these grunts at home. Don't try to do that. You will hurt your throat. I will. I did hurt my throat trying to do that just now. Don't do that. So on YouTube, you can find delightful footage of System of a Down in the studio listening to this song.

No, K-N-O-W. and jumping around delightedly. Three remarkable elements in this video. First, we've got the system of a down guys bouncing around joyously, playing air drums or air bass, so endearingly childlike and delighted with themselves. As well, they should be. Second, they're hanging out behind a giant studio mixing board,

Sylvia Massey, the great producer. She's behind the boards. And there's a giant bouquet of flowers of roses, I believe, in the center of the frame. And I don't know that I've ever seen flowers. in a recording studio before. And that's quite lovely and distracting. But wait, who's that guy way in the back there?

The guy with the beard. It's Rick Rubin. It's Rick Rubin lying down. It's Rick Rubin with his eyes closed. Is he napping? Is he napping despite the heavy metal playing at incredible volume? Is super producer Rick Rubin sleeping while producing the first system of a down record? that's why Rick Rubin is the best

and or the worst. Yes? This song is called war. War with a question mark. I think the question mark is bitterly ironic. The song itself does not seem undecided on the topic of war. Yes, Serge just saying,

we will fight the heathens four times. Come for the rad guitar part. Stay for the foreshadowing. Rick Rubin signs system of a down to his record label, American Recordings. Rick Rubin will produce or co-produce all five system of a down records. And there is for sure a Rick Rubin vibe to this band, the brutal crispness, the jovial broishness, the pulverizing semi-funkiness, and the haters.

The Rick Rubin haters will tell you that he's all vibes, that he's hands off to the point where his hands never touch or do anything. Ask the Slipknot guys about Rick Rubin sometime or don't. actually. I feel like every few months a new Rick Rubin quote goes viral where he says something like, I have no technical ability and I know nothing about music. That's a direct quote, by the way. Rick Rubin, is he a super genius shaman or is he just literally asleep right now? Because it can't be both, can it? I go back and forth on a Rick Rubin, but really no, I don't. Here is my 10 second argument for the eternal genius of Rick Rubin.

I'm thinking maybe we start Acapella with if you're having girl problems, I feel bad for your son. I got 99 problems, but a bitch ain't want. Hit me. Dead ass, that is Rick Rubin suggesting to Jay-Z's face that Jay-Z start his song, 99 problems, Acapella. Jay-Z is getting his mustache trimmed during this conversation.

Just FYI. Rick Rubin, just casually proposing one of the raddest first five seconds to a song in world history. Hey, Michelangelo, I'm thinking you should paint something on this ceiling. Hey, God, I'm thinking you should etch these Ten Commandments onto these stone tablets. Get out of town. This is a pro-Rick-Rubin shop. Let him cook. Let him nap also if he is tired from all the cooking he's doing.

Evidently, Rick Rubin's big suggestion when producing system of a down is that he's always trying to get Serge Tonkian to enunciate. Surge did an episode of Broken Record, Rick Rubin's podcast. Rick Rubin has never used more bass in his whole life than he does on his own voice on his podcast. and Serge says that even now, when he does vocals, he still hears Rick Rubin's voice in his head going, pronounce it better. And so Serge pronounces it as clearly as he can. You get all that? Probably not. This song is called Soil. I love this song. This song freaks me out just a little bit. This chorus made me laugh out loud. just the daffy staccato lunytoons attack of it

until I realized what he was singing Friends for years images in red blew off his own motherfucking head confidence death insecurity

the men fall unrealized this song is widely believed to be a tribute to a friend who died by suicide widely believed okay

this song soil starts out unambiguous and keeps right on being unambiguous I suppose there's ambiguity in the sense that Serge attributes the death of his friend to a third party, to evil. And Soyl concludes with Serge's message to that third party. A lot of screaming.

A lot of hootin and hollering. Two songs in particular on this first System of a Down record point us toward the future of System of a Down. And perhaps the future of best case scenario, new metal as a whole. And Soil is one of those songs. Yes, the startling tempo changes, the cartoonishly intense dynamics, the screaming of a great many words very fast. And then there is the song Spiders, which slows us down severely, which of course only makes the vibe more intense.

He's a beautiful singer, Serge Tonkian, is a beautiful singer. Serge Tonkian is the thing. And this is evident even when he is screaming like a goat, but his beauty is more evidence when he isn't. Go ahead and call spiders their power ballad. If you don't mind maybe getting your ass kicked. You know what's coming in terms of a dynamic shift here, but don't get too cocky because history will soon prove that nobody quite knew what was coming

the way system of a down did. One really good scream at the end of this song, a scream that is notably not witch or goat-like. It is painfully, brutally, vulnerably human. And for me anyway, here is the band that will soon be rising to the occasion, the occasion being one of the darkest days in American history. So, System of a Down tour the hell out of this first record. they do Ozfest of course they do Ozfest they open for Slayer slayer fans hate them Slayer fans apparently hate everyone who isn't Slayer don't take it personal everyone worries about Y2K and then the 20th century ends and the 21st century begins

and pretty much nothing bad happens and everyone breathes what is in retrospect a genuinely tragic sigh of relief meanwhile system of a down have leveled up it is time for the second system of a down record, which is going to get a great deal of radio play until suddenly it doesn't, but then eventually it will again, and it still does. It is time for toxicity, which is released on September 4th, 2001. And hey, why don't we let this record live there?

Live then on that day for just a little bit. Here now are the first 12-7s, of the second system of a down record. Oh, hello there. This song is called prison song. The silence and the whispering is every bit as important as the noise here. Every bit is jarring and necessary. The whole value proposition of a system of a down song is that at any point in any song,

you have no idea what's going to happen in the next two seconds. I feel so old when I describe internet memes to you out loud. And yeah, you know the one of the guys sitting in a chair with a faint outline of him leaning back and a giant blue arrow showing that now he's leaning forward? Yeah, that one. Prison song is a song about the prison state. Prison song is misinterpret this pal incarnate. Following the rights, moments you clamped on with your iron face.

Trudge begin conveniently available for all the kids. Following the rights, moments who clamped on what your iron face. That's the first verse. Whatever percentage of the individual words you got there, you get the point. One huge difference between the first system record and this one is that our friend Darren Malachian, guitarist and songwriter, will be appearing on vocals much more frequently. From now on, like Serge, Darren is a quite theatrical singer, but theatrical in a strikingly different way. He goes first here on the pre-chorus in case that's not clear to you, but then again,

of course, it's clear to you. Rick Rubin in that Broken Record podcast episode makes the very astute observation that there's some public enemy in system of a down. There's an echo of the Chuck D. Flav-of-Flav dynamic in the Serge Tonkian Darren Malakian dynamic. Darren will not always function as a source of comic relief and crude frivolity, but sometimes he does. Okay, time to scream the chorus. That last, I know that preface is a cracks me up every time. Is this song, is prison song more effective sociopolitically because it's a little bit funny? Because it's somewhat patently absurd? I think yes. I think the absurdity primes you for the bridge to this which is impressively super literal.

Don't try that. Ow. Ow. Don't. Don't try to tell System of Down that nobody wrote good protest songs in the first decade of the 21st century. So here's the blessed duality of System of a Down as they approach the peak of their powers. Prison song is track one on toxicity.

Track two is called Needles. I had to get that last scream in there. I'm not even going to try to approximate that. Okay, so in that podcast, Rick Rubin and Serge Tonkian also have a good laugh over what was apparently a huge argument within the band about this song, needles, and about this line right here. And the argument was over one word. The argument was over whether this line should be pull the tapeworm out of your ass or, pull the tapeworm out of my ass. Okay, so, pull the tapeworm out of your ass wins, obviously,

but originally, Serge sang, pull the tapeworm out of my ass, but at least two other guys in the band rebelled, see, and insisted that my ass was way too vulnerable, and they have a huge fight in the studio about it. And now Rick Rubin says, quote, it was so extreme, but it speaks to a passion in the band. There's real passion.

It's amazing. The fact that a lyric and insignificant, one word in an arguably comical line, is enough to potentially break up a band or discard a great song, end quote, arguably comical. I love it. I love this band. I love this record. toxicity. The truth is that on 9-11, I was 23 years old, and I lived in Columbus, Ohio. And I can't stress this enough. I was incredibly fortunate to not know anyone killed in the terrorist attack.

So my shock, my fear, my anger, my grief was also mixed together with shame, almost, shame that I felt so awful compared to all the people in the world who had way better and more immediate and more concrete reasons to feel fear and anger and especially grief, where Whereas all I did is just sit around feeling crappy and listening to cartoonishly violent metal. Whereas all I did was listen primarily to Slipknot, Iowa and System of a Downs toxicity. I had rarely felt cornier or more insignificant in the grand scheme of things than I did in that seemingly endless moment. But I put toxicity on even now, and it's still just one thunderbolt of helpless cathart. after another.

This song is called ATWA, which is, I didn't know this, but I should have, an acronym for air, tree, water, and animals, which is not just an ecological thing, but an ecological thing Charles Manson came up with,

apparently. How about that? I didn't know any of that, and I don't feel bad. I just really like it when Darren goes, Anymore! Ow!

Don't, I found this record to be profound. ecologically and otherwise. I didn't always know exactly what Serge meant, but I believed everything he said anyway. Mostly though on that song called Science, I just like how Serge goes, science, ow. I also like the song Bounce, specifically the way Serge goes Bucca, Bucca, Bucca, but yeah, okay, okay. I am fairly certain that I did not hear toxicity in full until after 9-11, and so I can't tell you if terrible world events changed this record or changed the way I heard it, which is fine, because that in itself is a very corny and absurd proposition. But I can tell you that I obsessively listen to this record.

And it appears that I will always hear this record through that very specific prism of TV violence and grief and shame and above all just helplessness. This record soundtracked a great deal of fruitless. and pointless and somewhat baseless flailing. And it was remarkable to me. How much the song Chop Sui sounded like an extra brutal manifestation of all that flailing. You get all that?

Yeah, you did. Chop suey exclamation point. I feel a little silly that I didn't know this. Rick Rubin once told Rolling Stone that this song was initially called Self-righteous Suicide, but their label Columbia Records in conjunction with American

records made him change the title even before everything. And so the new title, Chop Sui, is a little joke. The words here, of course, don't matter as much as the ludicrous, percussive force of the words. Wake up. Boot-w-wit-bo-da-bo-da-boo-da-bunit-up. Ow. You want to get all analytical.

The mundanity of the morning routine here takes on a certain tragic cast now. plus the makeup, the hiding of scars, the shielding of vulnerability. Okay, sure. But really, who do a little bit of makeup? You want it to. But a bit of games on the table.

You want it to. Ow. Ow. What makes this song indelible and immortal is the barrage. Right? The sensory overload. The fact of being totally overwhelmed.

You know in cartoon strips where the characters fight and it's just a cloud, a whirlwind with maybe a fist or a foot sticking out here and there and the whole thing's surrounded by cartoon censored Hubert style swear words, that's chop suey.

Chop suey is like a Tom and Jerry cartoon and you are Tom. Tom being the cat that gets brutalized by cartoon violence the whole time. And here's where the anvils really start raining down on your head. Even if you've previously been paying very close attention to this band, I suspect that at first this moment was still quite staggering,

quite revelatory, the harmony between Serge and Darren. How viciously, but how sweetly Chuck D. and Flavlave's voices can align when they agree on what words to sing. So in 2021, Serge is talking to a radio station, 93X, Minnesota's rock. And he says that while he was writing Chop Sui, he was struggling with the bridge, with the middle eight. And Serge was

in the studio with Rick Rubin, who was awake. And Serge says, quote, we were in the studio hanging out. And Rick said, you know what? Let's take a break. Let's go to my house. We went to his house. He had this huge library. And Rick goes, just pick a book, any book. And I just reached out, picked the book. And Rick goes, open to any page. I opened to a page. Put my finger on it. And that was the middle eight lyrically. Using the universe to guide you was incredible. And the way that it worked with the rest of the lyrics was what stunned me. End quote. Rick Rubin, ladies and gentlemen.

Serge picked up the freaking Bible at random out of Rick Rubin's vast library. And he opened to that page, Luke 2346. Do I believe that story? Yeah, maybe. No, actually, I probably don't believe that. I'll buy that he opened the book, but not to that page. Is it still a great story? Hell yeah, it is.

So the website, UltimateGatarr.com aggregates this surge radio interview, types out these quotes, and Darren Malachian, Serge's bandmate, leaves a comment on UltimateG Guitar.com's Facebook page saying, quote, this does not tell the complete story of what the song is about. The chorus was written by me, and it's about how people are judgmental about other people's deaths, how they die, has nothing to do with the Bible, just want to clarify. End quote, consider the matter clarified.

What this clarifies is that system of a doubt is a somewhat volatile operation in terms of arguing the merits of from whom to pull the tapeworm and in terms of arguing about the lyrical construction of 20 year old songs via a Facebook comment section. Now feels like a good time to tell you that after toxicity, System of a Down will put out a 2002 collection of kind of sort of toxicity outtakes called steal this record exclamation point. And then in 2005, they put out two albums called Hipmobile. tis and mesmerize, which I listened to a ton at the time, but I barely remember anything about him now. So I'm really excited to go back and listen again when I'm done with this, if you want the

truth. And then that's it. That's this band's discography. System still tour. Sometimes they played Armenia, of course. They even played Columbus, Ohio. And when I finally saw them live, I did not get into the pit, but what I remember most honestly were the drums, the John Dolmayan Barrage. But there's a version of System of a Down that's put out like 12 records since toxicity. Yeah, okay, not 12, but there's a much more prolific version of this band. But I don't think that fantasy version of System of a Down has the total mastery of repulsion and attraction that makes Chopsui the best song you've ever heard while you're listening to it. Two days after 9-11, Serge posts online an essay about the global circumstances that might have caused 9-11, an essay he wrote himself entitled Understanding Oil. And this essay is thoughtful and confrontational and, as you can imagine, poorly received by some.

But as Serge has said, many times, he was an activist before he was an artist, nor is there any real division between. his activism and his art. And then, even before chop suey gets back on the radio, system of a down go back on tour in a profoundly changed and scarred America. And Serge has talked about how he started running around on stage a little more. He tried to keep moving, just to avoid possible snipers, out of fear that the Turkish government might be trying to assassinate him. all by himself, but not alone.

If you hear a system of a down song on the radio today, it's probably going to be the second to last track on toxicity. It's going to be aerials, right? Right. Aerials in the sky. This song definitely would have made that clear channel list if it had been on their radar at the time. But when I hear this song on the radio now,

that's the part that still gets me. right at the end, the wordless harmony, the loveliness that articulates the awfulness, the vulnerability, the powerlessness I can still hear, I can still feel. And all of that, without even a mosh pit to protect me. Oh, thank God, it's Yassi Salick, beloved frequent guest, host of Bansblane, which may or not return on November 7th, Queen of Los Angeles, draft aficionado scholar podcast luminary and our dear friend yasi hello rob bonj or rather salamalekom if you will as i was i feel i was typecast to be on this episode and i'm i'm here to i'm here to i don't know about that

be proud of that do you have a lot of other middle eastern friends Okay. Let's save that for later, shall we? It's great to talk to you again. Always a delight. Always a calming experience. It's just incredible. Thank you for having, ma'am.

Thank you for being here, Yassi. I think we should start by getting a better sense of where a system of a down came from. And so, Yasi, tell me about Glendale, California, and how it is a distinct entity from Los Angeles. proper. Glendale is a magical place. It's a wonderful, truly wonderful. It's the home of the Americana Mall, which is where I heal my depression via the Brandy Melville and the Sephora,

and I eat delicious meals at the Cheesecake Factory. It is, also there's a Glendale Gallery. I don't want to disrespect the Glendale Gallery, which is across the street, but the Americana is, in my opinion, slightly better. Home to many luminaries in the music space, But for our conversation, and I think what's important to talk about is it is an Armenian village. I think there's like 200,000 people that live in Glendale and like 40% or something are Armenian.

So it's heavily populated by BMWs and Tesla's and Mercedes-Benzas and Armenian markets where I like to go get my yogurt soda because we share that in a commonality Persian people. think of system of a down as like a quintessentially Los Angeles band or Los Angeles area band in the same vein as like the red hot chili peppers or whatever? Um, kind of to like what we just talked about. I feel like they're definitely quintessentially Glendale like their L.A. through the prism of Glendale. And also I think they're like a quintessentially, uh, I don't want to say first generation because I don't think they all are first generation.

I think, um, Serge was actually born, not an American. but they're like Lebanon, yeah, but they're quintessentially like an immigrant, American immigrant band. So part of the reason I was really excited to talk about System of a Down is because I think it was really exciting for people like me to see people like that that look like me like on TV and stuff

and we'll get into that a little more later. Because I've always been like, okay, I can't be like, well, not like white people because technically Armenians and Persians are white, right? back post-World War II, there was like an influx of like, I believe, Syrian and Lebanese immigrants into America, and they were categorized as black by like the government or whatever, whoever categorizes you. And they, for pretty obvious reasons, related to not having rights, because at that time there were so many rights that were still, you know, precluded from black people, including like property ownership and stuff, they lobbied the government. to be, to be, to be, to be, to be, she recategorized as white. And their argument was like, well, if we are black, then Jesus Christ, your friend, who is from the same place is also black.

And you know the government, you know the U.S. government was like, oh, okay. Now, absolutely not that shit, bitch. We are yes approved. They weren't, it's very interesting because they weren't like, actually were a secret third thing. And can we be that? They were just like, it was two options. and so they chose. But now it's like forever cemented

in all, you know, categorization, at least in America, I don't know about abroad, that like these Middle Eastern people are Caucasian or whites. That's what you feel out on sense and stuff. Anyways, that's a little bit of a digression. But I think this band has the quintessential L.A. thing in the sense that L.A. is so full of people having this kind of immigrant experience or this first-gen-gen-immigrant experience.

I do think your entry point matters here because I got into them through chop suey, right? Through the toxicity record. And it was immediately after 9-11. Like the world is ending. And suddenly these guys are huge. And suddenly that makes perfect sense. And I am curious just about the experience of seeing, you know, this band on MTV, hearing this band on the radio, you know, in this terrible cultural moment. You know, just what it means for them to get huge right at that point.

Rob, not to answer a question with a question. but can you just, I'm just curious. Can you tell me why you thought that this band made perfect sense post-9-11 when the world felt like it was ending? I don't disagree at all. I'm just like curious what goes on in your heart and mind. I think just the chaos of it. There's just something, you know, like just it's not anything lyrical. You know, like the reason that that song gets banned from the radio briefly after 9-11 is trust in

self-righteous suicide. But I think what really resonated for me was just the incoherent sort of screaming, like every five seconds, I don't know what's happening, sort of appeal that this band had. It just sounded like the inside of my head, like just this jumble of total chaos. Yeah. I think that's why. It was chaos and it was kind of circus-ish, which also everything felt like that. I mean, for me, obviously, I had like a slightly different thing post-9-11 because, like,

like it was already like a big deal for me when I first found them like a Middle Eastern teen to see people that look like my cousins, you know, on MTV. Like especially, oh my God, especially considering like, you know, Gulf War Saddam Hussein-ass times where like my cousin whose name is unfortunately Sanam got called Sanam Hussein for like eight years of her life. And like in middle school, the kids after the Oklahoma City bombing were like, Yossi, where is your uncle hiding? I got a lot of Yossi, where is your uncle hiding? In fairness, I was deeply vindicated when they found Timothy McVey and I got to be like, damn, that sucks. They got your cousin, Trevor. You know what I mean? Anyways, that was, that was pre. But so like, so I'm just saying it was already like not awesome for Middle Eastern kids at the time. And then post 9-11, it was like a thousand times less awesome all of a sudden. So, you know, you're getting searched on airplanes and,

the whole thing. So it was like extra meaningful because from my memory and understanding, like, I think I talked about this in the Soundgarden episode of Bansplain a little bit. Like, even just seeing like Kim Thale on TV was like, which is not even the same. It's just a little bit closer. You know, like I was like, oh, this is cool. Like, but then to see like actual Middle Eastern people like it was a huge deal. Anyways, I'm not here to play my tiny little sitar. Like I'm not a victim. I turned out amazing. I'm a moderately famous podcaster, babe. So don't worry about me.

My middle school tormentors could never bitch, okay? I don't know where they're at, but they're not modernly famous music podcasters. Shout out to Trevor. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, eat a dick, Trevor. I bet Christine from Blondie never texted you to say you got a few things wrong

on your Blondie episode. Okay, so eat a bowl of dicks is all I have to say to Trevor. That's not an experience Trevor is ever going to have. Ebola dicks, Trevor. That's the real message. That's right. Anyway, yes. So it was important. And I think I know it was really important for my brother who like he was a bit younger and he felt very like othered and like kind of an angry young man to see that. So I think that was really cool. And it's actually very timely given the recent antics of Iran feels like we're probably due for like another.

a revisiting of the anti-Iranian racism. It's like very Y2K coming back in style. You know, everything comes back around, babe. So here we go. Let's get ready. Crap in. In surges, to be very surge money where his mouth is forever,

he's such a king. Super pro-Palestine, speaks out all the time. He's a really amazing person. Absolutely. I mean, he put out like a statement, you know, on their website or whatever, you know, within a week of 9-11, it was called Understanding Oil, you know, like just trying to lay out, you know, from his perspective, why this happened. And like, that is not, that is not then was not a popular viewpoint that he did it anyway. What do you think of the, like, because I remember kind of chuckling in the Sound Garden episode, sorry to keep referencing my own work. How embarrassing.

It's very. But as you know, I have no life to speak of outside of my work and craft. But I remember, like, I think it was Kim Thale kind of like making fun of rage against the machine and being like, oh, we love your activism from within the confines of a major label. Like, what do you think about? I mean, I don't have an opinion on it because I do think it's like, that's always, I mean, the clash were on a major label. You know, like, I don't think it precludes people. Like, it gets your message across more broadly.

But it is kind of interesting to be sort of, like, within the system trying to dismantle it. That's an interesting question. I never thought of rage against the machine, like, in the same context of, like, selling out, like, their Green Day or whatever. Like, I expect them to be like Fugazi. But they were, they absolutely weren't. They were, like, directly went on a major label and were like, hey. Yeah. I think System of a Down have Rick Rubin, right?

Like they were on Rick Rubin on American records, you know, and American recordings, whatever was called. And then it was on a major label. Like they have that additional layer. Right, right. Like when the labels make a fake indie for you to be on so you can feel good about yourself. It's not quite like that. It's not exactly.

But there's Rick Rubin as a benefactor, you know. And I do think that in the moment right after 9-11, like to have chop suey like on K-Rock. to have it on major rock radio on on MTV like whatever I think if there's ever going to be a time where you can make like that you know raging against the machine from within the machine type argument like this is the time to do it but I that's definitely you know I have always put system of a down and rage against the machine together like as really explicitly political bands where I always wonder what percentage of their audience is picking up like what percentage of the lyrical content right like why I the kids at the raid show going, fuck you, I won't do what you tell me. But like the advantage of the system of Adon had is like,

their song about the prison industrial complex is like very explicitly about that. You know, like there's no, there's no misinterpreting these songs, whether they're about the Armenian genocide or whatever they're about. Totally. Totally. No, it's true.

Are you a new metal person at the bottom of everything? Like, do you think of System of Adon primarily as a new metal, band. First of all, Rob, at the bottom of of everything,

you know that I'm a dumb bitch, first and foremost, and secondly, a male ally. That's what I am at the bottom of everything. We're talking about what I am

at my core, the bottom of everything. In no particular order. Second male ally. No, I don't know. I mean, like to the extent

that genre isn't fake, isn't kind of fake. Sure, sure. Like, I like, this really unspooled a thread in my mind that I like went on a tangent thinking about this because it was like what even you know like what even is new metal what even is grunge I went in a Reddit hole and they were like down tuned guitar seven straight I'm like I don't me famously illiterate about actual music I was like

okay whatever I'm happy for you I'm sorry that happened but I don't know what you're talking about I was though I mean before I knew what it was called like I got a cingle of corn sure the song Blind it came with like a skate magazine when I think in 94 when I was like 12 I was gonna say

like that's this we're in peak grunge still but it didn't sound like I think if you put blind next to like a sound garden song at the time like you tell me what you think like it didn't feel that different to me like it felt it was just fucking cool and angry and like kind of scary.

I loved it. And then obviously like around the fur was like a big deal. I didn't get into the first Def Jones album, which I think that's 95, right? That's considered to be their one new metal album. I didn't really ever get into that one. By the time I got into Def Tones, they had sort of moved on.

But I don't know. It's no. I mean, I don't like bump, you know, mud-stained is stained new metal. It's not. Limp biscuit, Biscuit. No.

It wasn't... It's like, is system of a down new metal? Like, are they a new metal? I guess they're like a new metal band in the same way guns and roses is a hair metal band. Does that make sense? That does make sense. Like, ostensibly yes, but like, are guns and roses a thousand times, like, musically more interesting and elevated than Cinderella? Right.

not a thousand times but a little more yeah cinderella's got i didn't know you were such a cinderella apologies i take your point don't don't know what you got until it's gone holds up for me but i do i do i do take your point sorry apologies to cinderella i love and respect to cinderella i don't think they're listening it's fine i i think it's a marketing thing and it's it was a way to to look down on these particular metal bands right like one thing that strikes me about system of it down. Like, part of the reason I got into toxicity is because Spin Magazine loved it. It was like the biggest, it was the best record of 2001 according to Spin Magazine. Like, I feel that with the exception, with the exception of like deaf tones and system

of a down, like these were like the elevated new metal bands, right? Like these were the band, like Tool is kind of like this. Like the new metal bands that the critics liked, you know, that had more of a prestige. were viewed as more important, I guess. Right. Yeah. I mean, again, as you know, like, once it hit, the clock hit like 2002, I just like, for whatever reason, checked out of all of music except for Dipset and the Smith and didn't check back into like 2010.

So I don't know. It really is not a bad idea, honestly. I'm happy for you or I'm sorry that happened, but like I don't know anything about that. Like sometimes I'll be like this band and I'm like never heard. one single song in my Godgiven life. And they're like, they were massive. And I was like, I was not paying attention. Well, I was going to ask, I always want to ask about K rock, right? Like, what is K rock playing on late 2001 and all of 2002 in addition to chop suey?

Like, what's actually going on. I'll tell you what Kier Rock is playing, babe. Kierok is playing. If you're listening, whoa. 20 to 40 times a day. thank God as it should have been Okay

This is a pro-Jimmy world shop Okay Majorly Pro Jimmy But also I think The cool thing about K-Rock is it was like Also still playing

Violent Femmes Blister in the Sun And like Sure Sure Sound Garden and Nirvana And like it was all sort of Always mixed in

So yeah it was But definitely set some of it down Like I remember Ariel's was on a lot and obviously toxicity and chop suey It was great. Tool, a lot of tool.

A lot of tool, of course, yes. I know that Rick Rubin is a great passion of yours and so I am curious. Do you hear Rick Rubin in System of a Down? His influence or is the genius of Rick Rubin that he is virtually undetectable?

Did you guys see how Rob just negged me there? Like my own father, he came in and said, I do that. I know that Rick Rubin is a great passion of yours. You've said like 10 meaner things about yourself. At least they were true. I don't want to even repeat the things that you've been saying about yourself for the last 20 minutes. I am the second meanest person toward you in this conversation. I do feel strongly. It's amazing that you won't repeat that, but you'll go literally on an internationally published podcast that your children can one day

listen to and recite horny old poetry. That's not going to happen again, probably. Don't worry about that. I filed it. I filed an FCC complaint. So guess what? It's definitely not. That was you?

Okay. Well, that's, thank you for that. Okay. Yes. My great passion for Richard Rubin. I've actually thought about this a lot. I'm sure you have too because in our work, we come across the work of Rick Rubin quite often.

And listen, I used to let myself take that like cheap cynical view of him that's like kind of all the rage online, which is, you know, oh, that guy, what does he even do? I can't even play an instrument. What's the point of him? Blah, blah, blah. But like, first of all, I'm sure he obviously can play an instrument. Like, let's not get it twisted. And secondly, his track record is so fucking phenomenal. Like, blood sugar sex magic, babe?

Slater? Landa. Lola, Del Rake. ride the self-titled Danzig album. Come on, Adele. Like, so he's not doing nothing. And I just feel like people forget that this is what producers used to do. Like, we used to be a proper society. Producers used to come in and be like, okay, does everyone have drugs? Yes? Great. Now, play that riff while you think about the moment of your own birth. Let's hear it that way. Okay? here's a bottle of wine

and you just spill it on the carpet stand in it and then play that baseline again and that's how you made fucking magic and that is the kind of production we're in the world and that's why Richard Rubin is actually a king because he's doing something otherworldly babe with these artists like

it's like maybe all they needed was this creative genius to come in coax lovingly guide and coax their art out of them into this beautiful Zen-like world of possibility. I could use that. TBIH.

You would like to be produced by Rick Rubin. Yeah, I feel like I'm constantly being produced by Justin Sales, who is like not lovingly coaxing my creativity out in any ways. He's less zen-like than you before. Yeah, I feel like he could take a page from Rick Rubin's book is all I'm saying. Well, it's interesting because the corn record, right, is Ross Robinson. It was like the big new metal guy. His thing is you would like scream at people and like the corn album ends with, you know, him sobbing and breaking down.

Honey, it worked. That's what you have to do. And it works. You have to have a mental breakdown every time you make art. Please listen to bands playing next. The new season. That's a plug. That's actually the tagline of bandsplain is you must have a mental breakdown every time you make art.

That one. Yeah. That's a better. That's a better tagline. Yeah. Just to wrap up here. when you listen, when you go back now to music from the early 2000s, like the M.O. on the early 2000s is that there was no political music. You know,

there was no concerted political response rock music wise to 9-11, to the Iraq war, to anything. Like, is that your experience when you go back now? Like, it's just, it's really bracing to listen to system of a down right now. You know, and so as you said, like, what sort of? of the same about this moment we're living through right now and what's really different. But do you feel like music was more or less political, you know, around 2001, 2002, 2003 than it's thought to be that, you know, people write about it as being now? Here's the thing. As I stated before, I wasn't, I wasn't a cognizant of it.

Like, yeah. The Smiths were apolitical. Well, they weren't actually. Smiths were very anti-Thatcher. But that wasn't really a concern at the moment, although you could ostensibly link Thatcherism to everything that is wrong in like the warmongering capitalistic world that we live in that system of down was talking to, but we don't really have time to get into all that.

Yeah, I'm not really sure. I mean, I think what people associate with the early 2000s is sort of like what is now, and I'm sure you're going to do a 15-part episode on indie sleeves or whatever, but whatever that is. But what people think about, that was, what were the strokes on about? I don't know.

Cocaine. I don't really, you know, I don't think they were like making any, like, big statement. Other than New York City cops aren't too smart, you know, not really a lot of political thoughts from the strokes.

Do you think Limp Bizkit was making political music? No. You don't think, like, in some way there was, like, by speaking for a community, an underserved, an underserved community for better or for worse, there was something political about, I don't know that that community needed to have a voice. I was going to say underserved is maybe overselling it.

But yeah, I suppose so. Political just by existing maybe. But I do think that system of a down do stand apart as like writing a song. called prison song, you know, that just lists, you know, that the lyrics are statistics related to the prison industrial complex. I don't see a whole lot of bands from that era going that far, you know, other than rage against the mission. I think to be fair, and so we don't get like, well, actually to death on the internet. I think that there was probably a ton, and if I had a chance to think about this, I could probably come up with some of non-mainstream rock bands.

And I don't even talking about, like, deep, you know, in the back attic of the Discord House bands. I'm talking about, like, fairly known bands now that you would say the name and no, but, like, that weren't on the cover of Spin, you know, were probably making sort of overtly political music. But not that I can think of any of the, the hives. The hives are Swedish. They don't even count. I don't, like, who take me out? I don't know. What was popular?

What was popular on the rock music radio? I don't think Jimmy E. World had any particular political agenda per se. James is going to be all right. James is going to call you on the phone and fucking chew your eye. I was going to tell you. I mean, I think Thursday was kind of political, I think. Mm-hmm. Right?

I believe so. And that's a little more mid-2000s. War all the time. Yeah, exactly. So I do think there was a swell of that, but maybe it was a bit once Indies Lied down and the next thing. thing happened. In conclusion,

Yossi Salick is Rick Rubin's biggest fan. I think if you take away one thing from this conversation, you should take away that Trevor Eat a Bull of Dix and secondly, that I am Rick Rubin's number one fan in the world.

Thank you very much, Yassie. Thank you, Rob. Eternal thanks to our special guest Yassi Salick. Thanks to our producer's Jonathan Kerma and Justin Sales. Thanks to Olivia Crieri for additional production help and Juliana Ress for fact-checking.

And thanks very much to you for listening. And now, let's all go listen to Chop Suey exclamation point by System of a Dow. See you next week.