60 Songs That Explain the '90s - “Doll Parts”—Hole

Episode Date: June 15, 2022

Rob looks back at the Los Angeles based band Hole, the pain within the lyrics of “Doll Parts,” and Courtney Love coping with the death of Kurt Cobain. This episode was originally produced as��a Music and Talk show available exclusively on Spotify. Find the full song on Spotify or wherever you get your music. Host: Rob Harvilla Guest: Yasi Salek Producers: Jonathan Kermah and Justin Sayles Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Look, this is going to get awfully heavy, awfully fast, just to warn you, and just to steal myself. So let's drag our feet on the awful heaviness just for a second here, shall we? I'm pretty sure she's going to have the last word whenever it's time for last words in terms of like societies last words. But here anyway, I want her to have the first word as well. I think she's earned that. So this is Courtney Love, singer, guitarist, lyricist, world historical provocateur, and not especially benevolent ringleader of the Los Angeles rock band. Hole. Hole, as you might have guessed, that's a literary reference, an ancient literary reference, Greek tragedy, the play Medea, written by Euripides.

Euripides lived in the 400s BC. Approximately, kids from today should defend themselves against the first. 400s BC. Hull, the band as the legend goes, Hull is named in part after a line in Medea. The line goes, there is a hole that pierces right through me. Fuck them up,

Euripides. So this is Courtney Love, singing the second verse of Hull's second best song, which is called Gutless. Gutless is the second last song on Hull's second album, Live Through This, released in 1994. April.

1994 April 12th 1994 which is no not yet give me a distraction who here's one the first verse of gutless includes the line girl germs eat your little

virus revolution come and die Courtney Love may be referring there to the riot girl revolution that kicked off in the early 90s pioneered in part by the Olympia Washington rock band Bikini Kill led by singer and provocateur Kathleen Hannah

talking shit about the Riot Girl Revolution. The next song, the last song I'll live through this, called Olympia, though it's historically usually mislabeled as rock star. That song may also be about Kathleen, not a fan. Courtney Love of the Riot Girl Revolution and many of the bands and humans therein. Actually, in 1995, Courtney apparently punched Kathleen backstage at Lalapalooza, and then much later, she called Bikini Kill the biggest hoax in rock and roll. Courtney actually said that on Instagram in 2019. This is what I mean about Courtney Love probably having the last word in terms of society. When the apocalypse comes, it will come in the form of an Instagram post from God. God posts on the grid. And this post will appear in your feed even if you don't follow God,

if you catch my meaning. And the very last comment on that post will be from Courtney Love. I leave it up to you which emoji Courtney is most likely to use. to commemorate this solemn occasion. The grimace emoji, perhaps. Nah, she's not a grimace emoji person. What I am saying is that if you personally make it to the end of the world, which is possible, the last voice you hear will be Courtney loves. There are worse ways to go out.

Or maybe God doesn't exist at all. Can we acknowledge what a truly fantastic line that is? So many fabulous 90s derived rock bands with deep and rewarding catalogs. So many handsome and troubled boys on the radio. And very few of them can boast a single line as singularly fantastic as, I don't really miss God, but I sure miss Santa Claus. The syntax of I sure miss Santa Claus especially. The full force of that line hit me like a month ago.

How did I miss that line for 25? odd years. How did I not immediately grasp the full, vicious majesty of this whole song? It feels like every week or so now I'm stumbling across another old fantastic Courtney love line that I should have been up on a quarter century ago, right? Let's do another one, shall we? Yes, more distractions. Stall, stall, stahl, drag, drag, drag. This song's called Barry, B-E-R-R-Y. It's off the first whole album called Pretty on the Inside from 1990. this record's got somewhat of a different

vibe. It's true. As a child of the 90s, as a child of the 90s raised entirely on MTV, Alt Rock Radio, and the sort of music magazines available in my orthodontist's waiting room. I got a whole lot of Courtney love in my head. A lot of quotes, a lot of

anecdotes, a lot of rancor. But a lot of it is random, useless bullshit, right? A lot of chaff, a lot of white noise, a lot of detritus. I've been mispronouncing that for 20 years. Every episode of this show will now be sponsored by a word I've been mispronouncing for 20 plus years. It's like the secret word from Pee Wee's Playhouse. This week, that word is detritus, which is not, in fact, pronounced detritus. I'll be damned. Why do I remember a bunch of other

random and mostly useless Courtney Love quotes, but not the garbage man one? Or this one. That's from a song called Awful from Hull's third album, Celebrity Skin from 1998, different vibe for this record as well. the vibes vary quite dramatically on whole albums i remember that line actually i love that record stall stall stall you want examples of the dumb useless courtney love shit stuck in my head i remember seeing courtney love on mtb for the very first time doing a promo for 120 minutes or something 1991 92 maybe before anything i can't find it now but i remember it she looked pretty out of it i thought at the time and she just goes hey i'm Courtney Love from Whole. I will not attempt to say it the way she said it. I will just tell you that she said the word whole as though it were not a reference to Euripides. And I was like,

yeah, I grimace emoji. Do you get me? I'm guessing that's what she wanted. I assume that was the desired effect. That was my personal introduction to Courtney Love. I remember reading Spin Magazine much later in the 90s after everything, a little blurby front of book news item about some party Courtney Love was throwing with an open bar and she got mad at the bartenders because only beer and wine was free. Spin quotes are as saying, open bar means open bar, not beer and wine, everything. This is my party, end quote. That one, I found that one. I have always remembered Courtney Love complaining about beer and wine. And I didn't even hear her say it. I just read about her saying it. And I could so vividly hear her saying it. And it stuck with me,

For 20 plus years, why? Why is this woman's voice in my head? Many reasons. Perfectly good reasons. Spectacularly awful reasons. Okay. I can't stall anymore. We have arrived at the awful heaviness.

We're going to get through this together. You and me. Okay. I remember only one line from Kirk Cobain's suicide note, and the line is not actually in Kirk Cobain's suicide note. The line is, and don't

remember this, because it's a fucking lie. So remember, and don't remember this because this is a fucking lie. It's better to throw it out and it to fade away and I'm laid in our bed. This is a recording of Courtney Love

reading Kirk Cobain's suicide note. Her husband's body was discovered at their home in Seattle on April 8th, 1994, though Kurt had died of a self-inflicted gunshot wound a few days earlier. This recording was played as part of a public candlelight vigil for Kurt held in a Seattle Park on Sunday, April 10th, and of course covered extensively by MTV, etc. I am truly sorry to lay this audio on you. I debated whether or not to lay this on you.

This is, of course, profoundly unpleasant to hear. But speaking as a person who thinks about 90s music, for a living. And speaking only for me, I worry sometimes that these real life people and these terrible events, and these societal, but also inherently personal tragedies, have become entirely impersonal. These real people, these young people. Kirk Cobain died at 27. His daughter with Courtney Francis Bean Cobain was one year old at the time. These frail human beings are in danger of becoming abstractions or unfeeling points on a timeline or albums on a list of some magazines, favorite albums, or caricatures and some jerk-offs, podcast, or cartoon cutouts of themselves that we can all either genuflect in front of or throw stones at. So if we're going to talk about Courtney Love in 1994 and what she meant and how she was perceived and how her voice was heard and broadly interpreted, there's value, I think, in briefly hearing her in her own voice and editorializing in her own words as she is forced to reckon publicly

with the worst moment of her life or certainly I hope it never got any worse. Speaking just for me, for doofy 15 year old me in April 1994, this is the precise moment where Courtney Love's voice drills into my head and never leaves. Clearly as a defense mechanism, I now prefer Courtney Love's voice in my head saying silly and pointless bullshit that there's no point remembering, hence beer and wine. But it's important for me on an empathetic level to never totally forget this either. One more. Just one more. For example, when we're backstage and the lights go out and the maddie roar of the crowd begins, it doesn't affect me the way in which it did for Freddie Mercury, who seemed to love

and relish in the love and adoration for the crowd. Well, Kurt, so fucking. What? There'll be a rock star. You ask. That's enough. That's it. Thank you. Sorry. You can revisit this footage on YouTube now, of course, which is both valuable for recalibrating your empathy and unbearable once you've recalibrated your empathy. This is a sort of five-minute clip that takes me four hours to watch. The camera panning slowly over all the mourners, as Courtney is speaking. They're even younger. They're barely older than me. They're crying. They're hugging one another. They're knocking over one. They're knocking over one. candle as they try to light another. In this moment, I don't remember, honestly, if I watch this on MTV or heard excerpts on the radio or somebody at school told me about it or I read about it in my

orthodontist's waiting room months later or what. But then and now, what hits me the hardest is Courtney Love herself, the fearsome power, even in her broken voice, her asides, her edits, her disgust, her fury. Kurt wants the last word, and specifically he wants those last words to be. it's better to burn out than to fade away. For all Kurt's rejection of the rockstar myth in this moment, as his final public gesture, he reaches for Neil Young. He extends the rock star lineage. He aspires on some level to the rock star lineage,

however much of his public life he devoted to insisting that he didn't want it. But my takeaway in real time was Courtney angrily rejecting all that mythical rock star shit. What I remember now is don't remember this because it's a fucking lie. I believed her. And I believed her in part because even as a 15-year-old, I sensed that she used to believe in all that mythical rock star shit, too. I wanted the prize, and I might get the prize. And if I don't get the prize, I'll be kind of sad.

This is way less famous old footage of Courtney Love from somewhere in the early 90s. She sounds so young to me here, just in the way she sounds out her vowels and in the way she keeps calling it a prize. But I'll have gone down as being someplace in evolution that is a reference point

to whoever does get the prize. Seriously, don't believe the hype of his rejection of the hype. Kirkobain wanted to be a rock star no matter how furiously he insisted otherwise. But one of the biggest reasons people are still throwing stones at the cardboard cutout of Courtney Love is that she

always wanted to be a rock star way more than he did. And she was and is way better at it. The prize being the crown passed from man to man to man in rock and roll. And the prize is to get that crown and everything that goes with it as a woman on a woman's terms. Put it this way. There was always more Freddie Mercury in her than in him. I want to affect culture in a very large way. If I fucking die without having written two, three, or four brilliant rock songs, fucking, I don't know why I live my life. And she did it.

She has written a few brilliant rock songs. Kurt thought so anyway. Of all the grim trivia that I long ago committed to memory about the final days of Kirk Cobain, I've never forgotten what was apparently Kurt and Courtney's last conversation. over the phone, according to her, of course, where he told her, no matter what happens, I want you to know, you made a really good record. My name is Rob Harvilla. This is the 67th episode of 60 songs that explained the 90s,

and this week we're talking about doll parts by whole from their second album, Live Through this, released on Tuesday, April 12th, 1994, less than 48 hours after that candlelight vigil. the meaning of this song. Or, okay, the widely perceived meaning of this song shifted tremendously just in those 48 hours. But whatever this song means or means to you, I still wince every time at the words big veins. That too, I assume, was the desired effect. So here's a fun sentence. Get a load of how fun this sentence is. Just a stupendous collection of proper nouns we got here.

When Miley Cyrus covered doll parts on the Howard Stern Show in 2020, Courtney Love posted a clip on Instagram with the caption, quote, at Miley Cyrus doing a sweet version of doll parts on at Stern show, parentheses, hi Howard, hard emoji, end parentheses, too hard emoji, too hard emoji, end quote. That's so fun. I think that's fun. Miley's version is excellent, of course, though I wince when she sings the words big veins also. That post from Courtney is still up as of June 2022, but not her follow-up IG post in which she described the genesis of the song, Dall Parts itself for the millionth time. Courtney wrote, The song Dall Parts is an homage I wrote in 20 minutes in a girl named Joyce's bathroom in Cambridge, Massachusetts. I had to write most of the lyrics on my arm in Sharpie as I ran out of paper. People were pounding on the door as I wrote it. It was played for the first time an hour later at the Virgin Megastore in Boston. It was about a boy whose band had just left town, who I'd been sleeping with, who I heard was sleeping with two other girls.

It was my way of saying, you're a fucking idiot if you don't choose me. And here is all the desire and fury and love that I feel for you. Good songs don't always come in 20 minutes, but the force was strong, and that one did. anyway, I married that guy. Quick question for you. How much of that explanation do you believe? Do you believe she wrote it in 20 minutes? Do you believe she partly wrote the lyrics on her arm in Sharpie? Do you believe she wrote it in Joyce's bathroom?

Joyce Linehan, a music executive at the time, the first line of her Twitter bio mentions her dog. Do you believe people were pounding on Joyce's bathroom door at the time? Do you believe Courtney sang the song in a Virgin Megastore in Boston an hour after writing it? I'm not saying you shouldn't believe any of that. I'm just curious. Rock stardom, rock mythology is funny that way. You don't have to believe anything these people say about anything ever. And as a discerning human, you're probably better off if you don't believe any of it. But as a fan or even as an agnostic listener, it's way more fun if you believe everything. Buy the ticket, take the ride. Here we are now. And so on. I say this with total admiration. I don't think anybody in the 90s had a shrewder grasp of rock star mythology than Courtney Love. Just a baffling origin story here. Okay, let's narrow this down. Let's designate a primary source. Let's designate the book Courtney Love, the real story from 1997, whose author now goes by the name Billy Martin. It's not quite an authorized biography, but Courtney cooperated. on some level. All right. Here we go. How complicated can this be? Love Michelle Harrison was born in 1965 in San Francisco. Her mother, Linda, was an heir to the Bausch optical fortune and later

became a pretty famous psychotherapist. Her father, Hank, claimed at least to be an early manager for San Francisco rock band, the Warlocks, who later became the Grateful Dead. Hank allegedly gives his four-year-old daughter a hit of LSD. Unsurprisingly, in 1970, Hank and Linda divorced Linda gets full custody and she changes five-year-old love's name to Courtney. Courtney bounces amidst multiple step-parents and extended relatives. Young Courtney is housed in various correctional facilities, and when she gets a little older, she works as a dancer in various strip clubs. Young Courtney lives in Eugene, Oregon.

She lives in Portland. She lives in New Zealand. She lives in Japan, Ireland, London, Taiwan, L.A., San Francisco again, Alaska, Minneapolis. This isn't necessarily in chronological order, but it's close enough. She's up for the role of Nancy Spungeon in punk filmmaker Alex Cox's 1986 cult classic Sid and Nancy. She threatens to move to Guam if she doesn't get the part of Nancy. She doesn't get the part.

She goes and lives in Guam. Courtney did take a smaller part in Sid and Nancy. For a while, she lived in Spain while shooting another Alex Cox movie. In 1987, Spaghetti Western called Straight to Hell, co-starring Joe Strummer from the class. and a bunch of other famous people who'd probably rather not talk about that movie. So maybe don't ask them. Concurrently with these affairs,

young Courtney pursues rock stardom. Around 1985, she's in an L.A. band called Sugar Baby Doll with bassist Jennifer Finch, who'd go on to form L7, and Cat Bieland, who'd go on to form Babes in Toyland. Babes in Toyland may or may not have hired

and then quickly fired. Courtney Love once or twice. L7 and Babes in Toyland would have, course, both go on to make some great records. Despite being lumped into an early 90s, all-female rock band subgenre called Foxcore, I refuse to believe that Foxcore is real, or that anyone ever said the word Foxcore out loud, even sarcastically in a social environment to a woman anywhere ever, that is the dumbest genre name I've ever heard in my life, and I consider myself somewhat of an expert in these matters.

Let's wash the genre name Foxcour out of our mouths with some tunes. Shall we? I mention L7. You want to hear Pretend We're Dead. Don't you? Of course you do. L7 made some great records, one of which was called Hungry for Stink, which is a very funny album

title. But yeah, their greatest song is Pretend We're Dead. And there's no shame in you thinking that, or them knowing it. Babes in Toyland, same deal, great records. I was listening to the song Sweet 69 in my house recently, and I kept bracing for my kids to make me explain the title of this song, but they didn't ask because they don't give a shit.

Nobody around here cares what I'm doing. Kat B. Allen stole much of her look and sound and vibe from Courtney Love, according to Courtney Love. Cat would go on to have a great deal of discouraging words for Courtney as well. They did not part under amicable circumstances. I would stay out of it if I were you. Actually, how about a blanket stay out of it for everything and everybody discussed? from this point forward.

And also everything I said earlier, Courtney Love feuds with everybody. Courtney Love talks shit about everybody. Everybody talks shit about Courtney Love. Some of the ugliest shit written in ostensibly respectable journalistic publications by anybody, about anybody, was written by various people about Courtney Love.

Meanwhile, Courtney Love's out here saying shit like, Madonna's interest in me was kind of like Dracula's interest. in his latest victim. End quote. Just burned bridges scorched from both ends and stretching to the horizon. Good Lord.

In 1989, in Los Angeles, Courtney Love places an ad in the paper that reads, I want to start a band. My influences are Big Black, Sonic Youth, and Fleetwood Mac.

A guitar player named Eric Erlinson, who has the patience of Job in the physical form of basically Tom Petty, Eric answers and stays and Courtney loves good graces, and she and his, for possibly longer than anybody else ever. They form whole. It's a literary reference.

Jill Emery on bass guitar, Carolyn Roo on drums. For purposes of decorum, I'd be inclined to avoid saying the names of their early singles, but I wouldn't know where to stop. In anyway, what's the point? I didn't name these songs, dude. Their first single is called Retard Girl. Their second single is called Dick Nail. their third single doubles as the lead-off track on their first full album, Pretty on the Inside, released in September 1991. It's called Teenage Horror.

I'm not hearing a whole lot of Flewwood Mac here. Quite frankly, there is a great spin magazine oral history of Live Through This from 2014 written by Jessica Hopper in which Courtney says, Our First Record wasn't supposed to be melodic. It was supposed to be a really raw expression. It wasn't designed to sell any records. It was designed to be cool, really. And I don't mean that in a super contrived way, but sort of contrived. We had a skeletal band, not very skilled. The next record was going to be more commercial. End quote. But in the meantime, you go to war with the army you have. Pretty on the inside was co-produced by Kim Gordon of Sonic Youth, of course, and Don Fleming of the sledgey New York City band Gumball. This record sounds more like the Melvins than any record

Nirvana ever made, if that means anything to you. But that doesn't mean anything to Courtney, I don't think. She has said way meaner things about this record than it's not very commercial. In fact, here we have Courtney Love saying meaner things about this record. That record with platinum, it's unlistnable. That record was a calling card for rock critics and hardcore that this is what I do. And I am not going to back down to me. I am a now. I am announcing my persona as a cunt. Thank you very much. That was an interview from the documentary, Hit So Hard, the Life and Near Death story of Patty Shemmel from 2011. Patty Schemel will be Hull's next drummer, starting with the next album,

Live Through This. Patty is credited on the album after that, Celebrity Skin, though she didn't play on it because the producer of that record, Michael Bynhorn, apparently hated her. It was a whole mess. Patty left the band. She struggled with drug addiction and homelessness, but she recovered. She's doing great now. Apparently she wrote a memoir, also called Hit So Hard. And yeah,

we got all these burning bridges behind us, but a whole bunch of burning bridges ahead of us to just a 360 degree panorama of burning bridges. Stay out of it.

Stay low. Keep your mouth covered. This song's called Pretty on the Inside. Slide kiss, girls, won't you promise her? Is she pretty on the inside? This band is she pretty from the back? This band is about to get signed to a major label to Geffen Records for a million bucks.

There were extenuating circumstances, but still, the early 90s were wild, dude. The best song in this record is called Good Sister, Bad Sister, Courtney sings, I'll Be the Biggest Dick that you ever had. It's a very specific type of good time. I didn't play that one for my kids. What extenuating circumstances lead to these people getting signed to a major label for a million dollars, you ask? Well, number one, a couple months after Pretty on the Inside in November 1991, Nirvana's Nevermind came out. And suddenly, no matter who you were, if you were in a rock band and you just screamed the word ugly six times in a row over super gnarly guitars, a major label deal just magically appeared. Just whoop and you're signing a contract. Where'd the pen come from?

It was a wild time, dude. It was the year that broke punk. That actually might be the only truly relevant extenuating circumstance. That explains the quantum leap in every respect, from Pretty on the Inside to Whole's second album, live through this. The very existence of Nevermind. The music industry's sudden insatiable bloodlust in Nirvana's wake, four rock bands, alternative bands.

Sludgy bands, grungy bands, punk bands of any sort, a feeding frenzy of gargantuan proportions. Milk it, as the saying goes. Teenage angst is paying off well, a cavalcade of radio-friendly unit shifters. The fact that Courtney Love started dating Kirk Cobain and married him and was eight months pregnant when Hull signed in 1992 with Geffen Records, which was Nirvana's label, it is naive to think that none of that mattered at all. but whole simply by virtue of being a rock band that existed in 1991 was guaranteed a serious upgrade in prominence if not in quality by 1994 even if Courtney Love didn't know anybody thankfully

Courtney Love knew everybody even if many of those people hated her and vice versa and this time she knew how to make a record that was both cool and listenable She's a better lyricist than you think. Whoever you are, whatever you think, she's better than whatever you're thinking. This is the first song on Live Through This. It's called Violet. Patient Eric Erlinson still on guitar,

but we got a new rhythm section here, Kristen Faf on bass and Patty Shemow on drums. We got two new producers on Live Through this, Paul Q. Couldery and Sean Slade. We got the crunch and gleam of a major label rock band in 1994. The verses, they are quiet. The choruses, they are quite loud.

We got persistent rumors, of course, that Kirkobain wrote these songs, but don't indulge any of that shit. Are there Nirvana echoes on this record? Of course, there are. It's a major label rock record in 1994, and the singer's married to Kirkobain. That song, Gutless, sounds to me like Courtney writing a better Nirvana song than a great many Nirvana songs. In that spin-oral history, Courtney says, I wanted to be better than Kurt. I was really competing with Kurt. And that's why it always offends me when people would say,

oh, he wrote, lived through this. I'd be proud as hell to say that he wrote something on it, but I wouldn't let him. It was too Yoko for me. It's like, no fucking way, man. I've got a good band. I don't fucking need your help. End quote.

The distortion's going to kick in now, and the descending chords are going to become ascending chords. I love that about this song. I'm going to level with you. I have no idea what she's singing there, and I don't care. It doesn't matter. Great song. I know exactly what she's singing here. There's a great scene in that book. Courtney Love the Real Story where holes playing a show in Atlanta on Halloween night and they're playing Poppy, live through this songs, but the record's not out yet. And hecklers are calling her a sellout and whatnot. And Courtney starts berating the audience. She says, I've grown. You haven't. The sex really isn't good anymore. And you know what? There's always going to be a shitty band with girls in it that can't play.

Courtney says people are throwing riot girl zines at her and she just goes, uh, I'm really glad you're here, girls, but check it out. I can write a bridge now. Amazing. Pretty good bridge on Violet.

No idea what she means there or really even what she's saying. It doesn't matter. But the most important part of Violet might be the way Courtney sings that very last everything. Courtney Love takes the idea of getting the last word both seriously and literally. What this song Violet is about is less important than what everybody just assumed it was about by April 12th, 1994. Courtney Love's husband had not been taken from her when she wrote and recorded Live Through this, but her husband had been taken from her by the time everybody heard this record. And the human brain is simply not wired to process the difference.

It is natural to lament the awful context into which this record was born, the awful context that overwhelmed and rewrote this record entirely. It is natural to wonder how we all would have heard live through this if we'd all gotten a chance to hear live through this as something other than an explicit reaction to an awful, life-altering, personal and cultural events that lived through this was obviously not an explicit reaction to. But this was never going to be a record with no bothersome outside context. Rock and roll don't work like that.

And Courtney Love is special. don't work like that. Patty Shemmel told Spinn, that was always the thing looming, that her marriage and her life was bigger than our band. We always had that battle of having to prove ourselves as a legitimate band. All we had were those songs. That was it. Miss World was a strong enough song to withstand whatever obviously false meaning anybody projected onto it. But the challenge of separating this record from unspeakable human tragedy was only going to get harder. Two months after Live Through this came out on June 16th, 1994,

whole bassist Kristen Faf died of a heroin overdose. She was 27. You don't get flashy attention-hogging baselines on Live-Thru-this, but the distribution of attention works a little differently in this band. What you do get from Kristen Faf is a tremendous solidity and heaviness to the base that doesn't wipe out the poppy flea-flewood mac of it all. That's hard to do. And the ease with which Kristen does,

does it only underscores how hard it was to do. Check it out. Courtney Love can write a bridge now, and now she's got a band that can handle playing it. That song's called She Walks Over Me. Co-producer Sean Slade told Spin, Kristen was just amazing. She's such a natural talent. You know exactly what to play, play totally tight with Patty. I have to give her credit, and this has never happened on an album that we've done in all these years. Every single bass track, on Live Through This was from the basic tracks. There was no bass overdubs because there was no need to because they were perfect. It was an exceptional performance on her part.

That's like a singer doing an album's worth of vocals in just one take. It just doesn't happen. You don't necessarily notice the bass on a song like Jennifer's body, but that only underscores why you should appreciate it. As for Courtney Love herself, there was plenty of awfulness to live through enrage against even before the private and public mourning started. I am disinclined to dwell on this, but the Vanity Fair article about Kirk Cobain and Courtney Love, written by Lynn Hirschberg and published in September of 1992, probably it's the meanest

and most damaging article written for a major magazine about a major celebrity in our lifetime, any of our lifetimes. 18 years later, Lynn Hirshberg and MIA will share a plate of truffle fries during a New York Times. magazine interview that was a whole deal i can assure you but no there is no equivalent courtney's old friend cat be ellen is quoted as saying of courtney last night i had a dream that i killed her i was really happy end quote and that's like the 50th meanest elements of this vanity fair story okay now that's the second or third meanest but you get me the worst part of this vanity fair catastrophe of course is the allegation that courtney love had used heroin while knowing that she was

pregnant, which a galactically furious, Kurt and Courtney both, quote, unequivocally denied. Suffice it to say that as a consequence of this piece, Kurt and Courtney spent several months dealing with the Los Angeles County Department of Children's Services and fighting for custody of their baby. There's a song on Live Through This called, I Think That I Would Die. As a parent myself, this was the hardest element of this whole saga to read about, and the hardest song to listen to. I think that I would die is three minutes and 36 seconds long, and if you get too into it,

it might take you four hours to get through. You can take a little solace, though, in the fact that Courtney Love gets the last word on this subject, because of course she does. I don't think she's talking about milk there. Doll Parts, the song, was a little more open to interpretation, even before all the catastrophes started. In terms of charting the distance between hole and 19.

1991 versus whole in 1994, punk rock in 1991 versus punk rock in 1994, the concept of subversion in 91 versus 94. The most audacious aspect of doll parts is how quiet it is. Not a power ballad, but not not a power ballad. I'm not hearing a lot of sonic youth here, let alone big black. Instead, the most punk rock aspect of doll parts is probably the emphasis Courtney puts on the word do. These lines, wherever she wrote them, however quickly she wrote them, whether or not she wrote them on her arm, etc. These lines always felt terribly straightforward to me in charting the gulf between how badly she wanted Kurt and how badly the rest of the world did. Okay, so according to that book, Courtney Love the Real Story, she also feuded with Calvin Johnson, the Olympia singer-songwriter,

leader of the band Beat Happening and the label K Records. Calvin has a very deep voice and a very childlike artistic persona. Whole covered the beat happening song, Hot Chocolate Boy at one point. Though at another point, according to this book, Courtney kicked Calvin's butt.

That is not a euphemism. She kicked him in the butt. Calvin in turn filed a restraining order against Courtney. Yet another scorched bridge. So the K Records crowd, the Tweed Olympia scene, Courtney despised.

Apparently they all used to get together and do cakewalks. like grade school type cake walks, everyone bakes a cake, gives it a silly name, like ugliest cake or cake with the least boyfriends. There's an actual cakewalk involving adults and someone wins a cake,

etc. Courtney Love found all of this disgusting. And therefore, my question for you is, do you believe that? To me, the most haunting line in the song, Doll Parts is not actually in the song,

Doll Parts. One day not long after this record came out, sophomore year of high school i'm sitting in the student newspaper office where all the cool kids hung out and this girl jessica is raving to me about this song and she says Courtney love sings my pain is so real i am beyond pain and jessica's got her eyes closed as she says this she's almost shuddering she has internalized this song and the pain in this song to that fearsome degree that only teenagers are capable of that line's not in the song but it doesn't matter now it's my favorite line in this song, too. That's how rock and roll works.

It's a damn shame, though, because I fake it so real I am beyond fake is a pretty incredible line on its own. This one, too. The whole ballgame here might be what you think that line means, or more importantly, to whom it is addressed. Someday you will ache like I ache is scarier, or at least eerier, if we take Courtney Love at her word with regards to Joyce's bathroom, the Sharpie on her arm, the Virgin Megastore, etc. Dall Parts is Courtney singing to Kurt. Dall Parts is Courtney telling Kurt, he's a fucking idiot if he doesn't choose her and embrace all the desire and fury and love she has for him. They Really Want You is not referring to Nirvana's adoring public. They really want you as referring to those two other girls Courtney heard that Kurt's

sleeping with. If we take all this as gospel, I understand perfectly. her ache, but not why someday her ache will be Kurt's ache. That's the scary part. The scarier part is that by the time most people heard this song, her ache was everybody's ache, or we imagined in our grief that our ache was equivalent to hers. That's not the absolute scariest part of the song for me, though. Dall Parts does not have a bridge. Dall Parts is too sophisticated a song, to bother with bridge. What doll parts has instead is a split second of near silence between the first chorus and the second verse. And believe me what I tell you, that split second of near silence was the scariest thing on the radio in 1994. That's it. You cannot imagine how terrifying that split second

of near silence sounded to me as a 15-year-old in 1994 holding up my ache to her ache. How much grief, how much fury, how much subversion, how much misinterpretation one could pack into that tiny little space. It is a black hole that sucks everything into it. Everything disappears into it, even God, even Santa Claus. I said that Gutlitz was the second best whole song, that is hyperbolic. I apologize. It's the third best.

Courtney Love has written three brilliant rock songs in her life, just like she wanted, the prize she always wanted. Gutless is the third best, Dall Parts is the second best. And the very best, most brilliant rock song Courtney Love ever wrote is called Boys on the Radio. This song is on Celebrity Skin, Holes third album from 1998. There's even more Fleetwood Mac and even less Sonic Youth or Big Black. Melissa Offder Marr's on bass. Patty Schemel is supposed to be on drums but isn't.

Courtney's Old Flame slash Frenemy, Billy Corrigan, co-wrote a few songs on this record, but not this one. And of course, this entire album is presumed to be about mourning Kirk Cobain, especially the part in the song Reasons to Be Beautiful, where Courtney sings, it's better to rise than to fade away. And that's a pretty raw and beautiful moment, but to my mind, not half as raw and beautiful as this entire goddamn perfect song.

I think the reason I got so distracted by Courtney Love talking shit about Riot Girl is I'm always curious who Courtney Love viewed as her competition in her desperate battle for quote unquote the prize. To her mind, she was not competing with the Riot Girls or the Fox Corps girls. Jesus, she was not competing with any of the girls on the radio. She was competing with the boys on the radio. She was competing with the boy on the radio. Boys on the radio is the best whole song. Hear me now and believe me later.

It's got a rad bridge, but the bridge pales in comparison to the radness of this chorus. First thing I noticed when I bought Celebrity Scan on CD in 1998 is that in the liner notes, this record was dedicated to, quote, the stolen water of Los Angeles and to anyone who has ever drowned.

Patient Eric Erlinson told Rolling Stone that Courtney came up that dedication, but it referred to a bunch of people. Jeff Buckley, the Deified singer-songwriter who drowned in the Mississippi River in 1997. Kristen Faf had died in a bathtub. Eric's father, as Eric put it, died basically drowning in his own body. Melissa Offdair Mar's father died of lung cancer. Tragedy followed this band everywhere. It's tragic, really, how good this band got at weaponizing all that tragedy. You really don't have to be a hardcore power pop fan like I am to agree with me that this is the best whole song. Courtney Love told Spin in that live through this oral

history from 2014, she said, I had a plan for the fourth record and the fifth record and the sixth record. I had a really grand design that got messed with because of my own problems, but I made it all the way to the third record, which absolutely exactly was my vision. I'm not quite sure why I live through this is so iconic. I think it's because girls don't make angry records as much. I've always thought PJ Harvey's rid of me was a far superior record than live through this, but that's good. It just keeps my ego in check, end quote. That's funny. We can agree also that Courtney Love talking about keeping her ego in check is funny. Even if it means grinding my teeth to dust every 20 years or so by revisiting Courtney Love, reading Kirk Cobain's suicide note, I never want to totally

lose touch with a human element. The entirely personal ache that drives the best music Courtney Love ever made, even if it also hopelessly muddled the public conversation about the best music Courtney Love ever made. When you're listening to a song like this, in that moment when your eyes are closed and you're shuddering, your feelings are more valid than her feelings, even if you get the meaning wrong, even if you get the words wrong. That's how rock and roll works. And Courtney Love had a better understanding of how rock and roll worked than any other rock star of her generation. In that respect, she had absolutely no competition. And that, more than anything, is why she deserves the last word and why she got it.

Oh, wow, it's Yassie Salick, dear friend of the program, host of Bansplaine, podcasting icon, super fan of both Dave Matthews and Primus. She's back. we are delighted to have her back Yassi, welcome. I was kidding about Primus. I'm sorry. I can't believe you would malign me within just one moment of me back on the program. Just as I was ready to victoriously

take the microphone as the third ever two-time 60 songs guest. It's important to me that this is so important to you. It's hugely important to me. We're going to have you on total probably five or six times.

So just get comfortable. Much like Courtney Love, I am competitive by nature. Okay, we are talking today about Courtney Love and Hall, Yossi. I suspect you have a lot to say. Do we, okay, so the big trend in prestige TV is to take a maligned 90s female celebrity and apologize to her at great length. Sometimes it's a documentary, sometimes, you know, it's a prestige TV show. So, Britney Spears, Marsha Clark, Lorena Bobbitt, Monica Lewinsky, Pamela Anderson, et cetera. This is not a great trend, I suspect it's almost over.

But if this trend never ends, is someone eventually going to try to make an apology TV show about Courtney Love? Okay, so like, I don't know, like, how the tides turn into Tinseltown, per se, of like, what's, you know, going on behind the scenes. I'm wondering, is your question more, does she deserve it? Yes. Okay, so a hundred percent yes, but I also like really hope that never happens. And I think it's because here's like I feel like the core like tenet of Courtney Love is that she refuses to ever take on the role of victim. Like, that's never been a thing that she willingly does. And that's honestly probably most of the reason that she was so vilified.

You know, like, she refused to, like, lay down and die when her husband did. And that's what people wanted her to do. They wanted her to, like, go away or be quiet or grieve quietly. And she didn't, you know, she was on the fucking verge of her own thing that she had worked. worked so hard for and she was grieving an incredible loss. And she wanted to keep going and she didn't want to lay down and die. And I think quite literally, I think like she would have died. Like I think she would have hold up with a bunch of fucking black tar heroin and probably

died. And people hated that. They hated. They hate to see a girl boss winning. Do you know what I'm saying? I'm just kidding. But yeah, I don't, you know, you read the book that I recommended. Like, it's what this woman went through, like what she survived just to like become 16 years old.

It's a fucking miracle that she's still alive. It's a baffling. Right? Let alone, not just still alive, that she made it. She fucking, she succeeded at her goal. She became one of the biggest rock stars on the planet. That's like absolutely fucking remark. You know, and again, I don't think people like it.

But anyway, sorry, that's not really what your question. I guess, like, I don't know. It's like, I don't, I haven't really like, you know, done any super engagement with those things that you mentioned. I'm not really interested in them. I watched the Pam and Tommy and I was like, it was a good show, but I was like, I don't know. Yeah. It's too late, you know? Like, it's like, what are you going to do now?

The damage of those, like, horrible, the treatment of. of her is done. Like Lynn Hershberg writing in Vanity Fair that you fucking did heroin while you were pregnant when that wasn't exactly true. That damaged you forever. That damaged Kurt forever.

You know, like there's that he wrote all your music. That damage was, you know, like, that you killed your husband. Like, how can you ever come 30 years later make some fucking stupid HBO show and what, undo this? that that's right it doesn't matter you know i was going to ask you i personally have always found it pretty easy to ignore like the harsher uglier ends of the anti-courtney machine right like i never

gave any credence like that she killed him or whatever right and kurt wrote her album and then bill corgan wrote celebrity skin like i found it easy to ignore that but like the damage is done as you say like it's is that shit better off ignored or did it do so much more damage to her than anybody even thinks. I mean, like, do you mean like emotionally or like career wise? I think both. I just, I've always, the question always with Live through this is like, it's so sad that we can't just see this as a great album.

Like it's entirely destroyed by the context around it or not destroyed, but changed completely. And why can't we just appreciate, right, why can't we just appreciate the fantastic record that she made without the context of her husband? or anything else. But the context, you can't eliminate the context, even if you want to, even if you think that would help her. Yeah, I mean, that's true.

There's just so much I want to say about, Courtney, because I have such, like, undying respect for her. And I know that's, like, maybe not a commonly held view, but, like, she's brilliant, you know? Like, I think no one talks about that, that she had, she is one of the smartest people, I've ever interacted with in my entire life. It's insane.

And I think part of the reason that people, this is absolutely not answering your question, I'm very sorry. I'm just giving a TED talk. Just like, you know, you see her speak and interviews and stuff and you hear all these things where people are like, oh, she's like incoherent or this and that.

And like, I genuinely think, and I've experienced it, it's because her mind works five times as fast as everyone else. It's wild. Like her, no one wrote her album. She just has this, like, deep. knowledge of music for like 40 years before her album was written in the lineage she wanted to be in. But I also think like she's ultimately a tragic hero. You know, like that's like a Greek mythological tragic hero. And the way that things did happen with that album almost like

fits so perfectly into that role. Like she's not a victim, but she is a tragic hero. But she is a tragic hero. To the best of your memory, like, do you, what were your first impressions of live through this? Like, for me, like, whatever, I'm 15 years old, and I'm hearing it entirely as a reaction to Kirk Cobain dying, even though that timeline doesn't make sense. Like, the context was everything for me immediately, but like, how did you first hear that record and what were your first impressions of it? Such a boy way to do. You were like, Billy Corrigan. It's better. I'm so glad to you out. this question. Some of the bands playing the

English ones will know this. I was first radicalized to hard rock and roll music by the Red Hot Chili Peppers namely give it away, but then I was really actually changed by Nevermind because I was 11, 10 and I'd never heard rage expressed in music in that way and I was a very angry preteen and I was destroyed you know, as a fan when Kurt died.

Like, I think I still have, like, the magazines from that air and all that stuff. Obviously knew Courtney Love was and, you know, that I was definitely going to go get the album, of course. And I was at middle school and just gorgeous walking past the trash can by the locker bay. There was, I was probably going to go shoplifted, if we're being honest with each other and the audience of 60 songs. But I didn't have to because there was a copy just laying right there on the top of the trash can. Can you believe? Like a CD. That's right. I couldn't even make this up. Live through this on CD was in a trash can.

Like, like enough that I saw it when I walked by and I grabbed it out. Was that simple? Why would someone do that? Is that symbolic? Is it art? I mean, it might have been like a symbolic like fuck her. There was a guy at my school who like prided himself on looking like Kirk Cobain and like really leaned into it. Oh, yeah. It was a real whole thing. Yeah. I didn't even think about really it.

Maybe it's because I was 12, you know, like, or almost 12. But it's also because I was blown away. Like almost that same level of like just insane connection I had with nevermind because of the rage was like one up tier because it was feminine rage. I'd never in my life on my 12 years on the planet seen or heard something like that. And that's all I could, that's all I could think about. Like, I was just, I was immersed in it. It was, that album was like my life.

Like, I mean, within, you know, a day replaced, never mind, probably never put, never mind again for the next year. Like, I would just listen to that album over and over and over again. Did doll parts strike you as an angry song? Like, where does that, what were the songs on the record that first, you know, it's not the most rageful song. Like, that's going to be Violet, you know,

or basically any of the others. Violet was the first one, I think, that was like the rage one that I really connected with. Fun fact, that song is probably about Billy Corgan. That is fun. Yeah, it's fun, right? But doll parts does have anger in it. That's like the incredible magic trick of these, like, whole songs, right? Like, doll parts is about yearning, but it's also, it's so trademark Courtney.

And I really related, it was like, fuck you for not wanting me. You know, like, that's the sentiment. And I was like, wow, like, incredible. And also I just want to point out that while Courtney Love is obviously a genius, like live through this is an incredible album because it was a magic moment because of the four people involved in it, you know? Like Kristen Fapp was an incredible, incredible musician. She brought so much to the table.

Patty wrote, I mean, doll parts was written, I think, prior to Patty joining the band, but she did write the drums on it. And I think the drums are really powerful. And she obviously, as Kurt said, one of the best drummers in history. Just like, fuck, that album, man. Eric has stuck with her the whole time, you know, which is wild. Eric and Courtney have like a magical alchemy. Like, that's, you know, that's the core of whole.

Right. Do you think Courtney Love is underappreciated as a songwriter because of the chaos whirlwinds around? Okay. What do we not appreciate? enough about her songwriting. It's funny because, like, I remember reading some interviews where she was, like, about the, like, departure from Pretty on the Inside to live through this. It's like, I learned to write a bridge.

You know, like... I love that line. I love that line so much. She was continuously improving and trying... She wanted to... She's a quintessential rock star, you know, like, in the most traditional sense. And she wanted to be... good. She wanted to write good songs, which was not exactly what other bands. Not in fashion.

Yeah. I mean, it was with the people that she was competing with, you know, with Kurt, obviously, and smashing pumpkins and, you know, even I would say Jane's addiction and like whatever else is going on then. But, you know, this was not, she wasn't playing a different game. Right. I was going to ask you who you thought her competition was because I was struck by how much she hated riot girl. You know, she's always feuding with Cat Bieland's. Like, her, she viewed her competition as Nirvana

and smashing pumpkins and Pearl Jam or whatever. Like, who in your mind were her closest peers or her most worthy adversaries? Right. Musically. I love this question. I believe there's like several questions in there. Allow me to. That's the style.

Allow me to take them on. Cat Bieland, I think, first of all, is really interesting because I think Cap Bealind and her were more like sisters, right? Like I do, I think they were competitive with each other in like a really unique way. And it's, it's totally like different from what she felt about Riot Girl. Like her and Cap Bealland had this like frenomy, but they were so close. But they just also like, there can't be two of those people in.

You know what I mean? Like they're very much, I think, you know, and I don't know Capie Allen, but just like from experience. and seeing babes in Toiland and seeing interviews and stories. You can tell they're both these like, they're both the front woman, you know? Like two front women. And of course they're going to feud. They had the same reference points. You know, they were constantly sort of inspired by each other, which you could call

copy each other. You know, there's a lot going on there. Riot girl? Okay. So interesting. Love this. You know, we just did the episode on PJ Harvey on James Plain. PJ Harvey also famously was publicly derisive.

of Riot Girl. I think she said, I think I'd find it quite patronizing to be called a Riot Girl if I was one of them, but they obviously don't think so. And Courtney weighed in on this and she was like, don't slice PJ Harvey in half when her assimilationist compromise

has done more for us than 30 girls banging on a pot and a spoon. And I bring these up to not to shit on Riot Girl because I think obviously Riot Girl was like important in what it did. But like, Courtney Courtney and PJ Harvey were not, that's not what they were trying to do. They wanted to be taken seriously as musicians for in, they wanted to, they wanted to play

within the world that they saw. They weren't, they weren't, I don't know about PJ Harvey, but Courtney Love was not trying to change the world. She was trying to take it over. Rule it. Yeah. And if you're going to rule the world, you're not inventing a, and also, you know what? I think she, I don't think she respected that they couldn't really.

play their instruments that they didn't really write pop. Yeah, no bridges. Also, like, never forget the Goss part of it. Toby Vale was Kurt's ex-girlfriend. And I think Courtney, obviously, was, like, not into that. And also, like, don't also forget. Toby was, like, writing Kurt letters all through, you know, their relationship. I mean, she had a lot of reasons. They hated her, too. Like, it wasn't just. They sure did. They love to, I mean, this is often with Courtney, like she's always made out to be the mean one, the bad one, the evil one, in the like, but those are the good ones, you know? And it's like, they also hated her.

They also antagonized her. They, you know, they were very, you know, the song Rockstar, which fun fact, it wasn't supposed to be called Rockstar. It was like a different song. Olympia, right. But yeah, like, they look the same. They talk the same. They even fuck the same.

She didn't, you know, it was. She hated fucking Calvin, what, you know, from Johnson. Johnson. Yeah. And that was that band Courtney Love, fully antagonist. That's right. The K Records band. And she was like, go fuck yourself.

So it's like, I kind of get it. You know, I think that's what it was coming from. But yes, sorry, the original question. I was like, who are you competing with? I think I didn't know this explicitly at the time, obviously, because this wasn't, I was 12 and I wasn't like super pouring over the Rolling Stone interviews. But like, I think that was another thing I related to. It's like she was competing with Kurt.

I remember, like, being 12, and, like, from that age, from the time I liked boys, I wanted to be them. You know, like, that was like, yeah, like, I wanted to date them, but more I wanted to be them. I would be like, whatever you're doing, I want to be like that. Like, I want to the point that I'd be like, I want to have the same shoe size. It was just, like, insane. But, but, you know, like, that's like, that's the vibe. And I think that was her vibe. She was like, and that's why she was drawn, I think, to people like, building.

Corgan and Kurt Cobain. It's honestly very cool. It's like she saw them as worthy, worthy competitors and inspirations. Like you don't like, you could date down, I guess. But like, and she didn't want to, you know, she wanted to, she wanted to win. I saw Courtney say somewhere that like, she doesn't quite understand why I live through this is so beloved, but maybe it's because of the rage. And like she always thought that PJ Harvey's rid of me was a better record. Are those two records connected in your mind? Yeah, totally. I mean, I think they're like in the canon of, you know, incredible expressions of female rage, feminine rage. But I don't agree with Courtney that rid of me is like better per se, you know, I think they're both

incredible albums. Rid of me is maybe more nuanced and musically, you know, maybe. But, but it's also like way less vulnerable. You know, it's emotionally accessibility-wise, like live through this is just like, bam. Like, you're 12. It doesn't matter. Like, you get it. And rid of me, I love, you know, I'm Peter Harvey Stan through and through. I do.

Eight hours. But it took me longer, you know? Like, I love, of course, the song, rid of me is like a gut punch right away. But it's like the accessibility of that is a little slower. You know, it's a little more opaque. and I can't believe that she would, I mean, live through this is perfect. Like start to finish. It's one of those rare albums that you can just put on and every song is fucking good.

Absolutely. Gutless is the one that got me most recently. Yeah, you forgot about gutless. At first you think gutless might be the weakest track, but it's not. It is not. There is no weakest track. There's no weakest track. Exactly.

It's clear to me that Courtney loves fashion sense in her. impact on 90s fashion is extremely important in ways I am unqualified to articulate. In this era, in the early 90s, like, how would you describe her approach to fashion and what impact did she have on 90s fashion broadly? I love this question. I think it's so interesting, right, because this is the kinder horror aesthetic, right? And it wasn't that far from, like, they were like neighbors with riot girl. But I think one, the thing about, Courtney Love is that she was happy to use her sexuality as power, you know? And that's so clear in her aesthetic.

But she's also sort of like juxtaposing this like, it's almost like doing the airplane with the medicine, you know, it's like, look, knee socks. Like, I couldn't possibly be threatening. But then it's like, you're fucking screaming, but the knee socks are ripped, you know? It's they, I know her in Kat Bialis. had a lot of the same sort of reference points around this like, you know, Valley of the Dolls kind of stuff. But yeah, it was, I mean, it was hugely. You don't think I walked around with those fucking brats in my hair every day, babe? You would be wrong. Shoplifted those as well.

And that's right. Do not take barrettes out of the trash and put them in your hair. What is the statute of limitations on shoplifting? You're fine. You're fine. I don't think the cops listen to this show. I can't get over this. You're walking past. passed a trash can in a middle school. Was it wrapped? No. It was okay.

Yeah. So somebody is. Someone like listened to it was like fuck this, I guess. That's just wild. Was like the trash can full enough that it could be? Okay. Like it wasn't like in a cartoon like at the very, but it was like obviously it was high enough up that I saw it walking past. Was there like a beam of sunlight on it?

I just, whether there's like violins. Right. In the background. and no I know this is like listen it was fucking meant to be it changed my life that album changed my

clearly I would have bought it anyways or like I bought it heavy air quotes but but the fact that like God just dropped it right there in the trash for me it was God yeah yeah are you a celebrity skin person

like as a power pop guy like I am heavily inclined toward that album like is it anywhere near do I prefer it I was I I think it it's in the same tier. I think they're close enough together that it's depending on whether you want to

have the rage experience or like the candy-coded experience. I think they're equal and just two very, very different vibes, you know, and emotional experiences. I love celebrity skin. I think people forget two things about it because the lead singles are the shiniest, right? It's like Malibu and Oh, Make Me Over. But the rest of the album is there's a lot more rock. It's also much sadder, I think, in many ways than live through this. Because you asked this earlier, right? Like, how lived through this was colored by Kurt's death. And also, it was weirdly prophetic in its lyricism and stuff. But I think, like, that makes a lot more sense, too, if you think about the fact that, like, Kurt was dying the whole time. You know,

like, it's not that it was, like, so surprising or sudden. Like, a lot of this. You know, this music was being written as, you know, she's watching her husband try to leave the world, you know, so that makes so much more sense. But Celebrity Skin is the morning album. That's the album that she wrote after while she was trying to, like, parse through it. And it's incredibly sad. Reasons to be beautiful. Yeah.

Yeah. It's a beautiful, again, I think a really underappreciated album. I think, I think production-wise, like, you know, I think they went with a weird producer. and like, I think it could have maybe been produced differently, but it was, you know, it was the time. And also I'm sure Courtney was like, I'm gonna go even, I need to climb higher.

I need to, you know, make a bigger splash. Right. This is the Fleawood Mac album. Yeah. That's who she's competing. Yeah. Were whole a good live band, Yassie? I know, I know, like,

maybe not exactly like the replacements, but I've read that like in those early, like those early post Kurt's death year or two, like it was a bit hit or miss because of course, you know. Sure. But I saw them twice in 95. I couldn't really go to like club shows, you know, I was like 13 years old. You were 13, right. I convinced my dad, shout at Rob Salick, to take me, that's right, Rob.

My dad is named Rob. That's part of our, that's part of our important dynamic as you as dad and me as teenagers. girl. Yeah. Rob Zollick took me to the K-Rock weenry roast at Irvine Meadows, which is now called the Verizon Wireless Amphitheater. And he literally fell asleep because of the secondhand grass. Really?

Your dad got stoned and passed out. Literally napping. Rage against the machine played. There's full bonfires. I'm not even making this up. Bonfires because we're in like a lawn section. My dad just snoring. Wow.

So, but I saw a hole of that. And that was like one, that's like an iconic whole performance. Like, the stage diving, the like, you know, it's classic, like leg up on the monitor. It was incredible. And then Lollapalooza was like, 95 was the same year. It was amazing. Like they were so, they're so good life. Like, she's, I mean, well, well, I'll finish up the L'LPolp is the thing.

Incredible. They were also like the biggest band then. And like Lollapalooza was still like very like Indian cool. It was like pavement. And Sonic. Sonic Youth is a headliner. Sonic Youth, right, right, yeah. Everyone left after Holt.

And we watched... It was second to last. Yeah, and we watched Sonic Youth from like three rows back because... And they played for like two hours in this huge... We meeting you and your dad who is awake now? Well, Lollapalooza was... Oh, I'm sorry. Me and my cool cousin.

Sorry, sorry. So that was awesome. But I also just like, just, okay, how amazing she was live. So maybe like, I don't remember seven or eight years ago, Courtney Love played solo shows. not solo. I mean, she had a band and stuff, but and she played at the Trubidor. And I took a friend who was like kind of a whole, like, naysayer. She just never was into it. She was like more of like a discharge, like crust punk.

Like just never thought it was cool. And I was like, just come with me. And we went and like after she had, she was like, I get it. Like she's the last, she was like the last living rock star, like a real fucking rock star that like commands this. You can't not look at her. she's an absolute fucking icon, you know, like, they don't make them like that anymore. They do not, no. Like, no shade to Tame Impala or whatever, but like. Yeah.

Yeah, Tame Impala is a different experience. But yeah. What are you, what are your thoughts on Courtney Love now as like an internet, you know, she's on Instagram, you know, she's sassing Olivia Rodriguez, you know, Mark Lanigan died and, you know, Courtney puts up this sort of weird antagonistic IG message at first. Like the social media was basically invented for Courtney Love for good or L. Like how do you feel about the vibes that she's putting out into the world now? I kind of love it only because it's we're so.

What is it? NF. I get it. You know, anesthetized or like, like, it's so interceptic. Basically. Yeah. Like everyone is media trained. No one says anything.

And I think one of the most compelling things about Courtney Love and also, again, a big reason she was so vilified is she's like compulsively. I don't want to say honest. It is honest, right? To her, it's on. It is. Sometimes it's not true. But to her, it's like, I mean, that vanity fair piece, you know, it's like, she's so has to just say what she thinks and feels. And that's just not a thing anymore.

and I love, I love watching it. Because, like, she'll step it back and she's humble. And she'll be like, if people are like, we hate that, she'll be like, hmm. But if, you know, she'll be like, okay, or sorry, or I don't care, you know, and she's sort of earned that right. Right, right, right. I don't know. I think it's cool.

I don't know. I do think, you know, there's no way that that Olivia Rodriguez was. At the very least is in the lineage of that. And, like, you know, hat tip. Has Olivia Did they hug it out or like What actually happened there? Has she covered whole yet Olivia

Or is she saving that You know for Spiritually? Yes Yeah spiritually Pretty the whole Pretty much the whole thing Literally

There's like literally a song on that album That I was like This is Violet But like pop You know Right Again no shit No shit

No shit I think she's brilliant and I think she's earned the right to say whatever she thinks. You know, it's, I think people are unable to parse nuance anymore and it's like, or back then. Oh, back then. Yeah. And it's like she had a deep relationship with Mark Lanigan and only she knows what that was and she can say whatever she wants. And like these like 6,000 Instagram commenters who just like love screaming trees like, fine. But like you weren't part of that.

You don't know what it was like. Right. You weren't there. Right. Yeah. That's all it is. Same with the, same with the Kurt and Courtney stuff. It's like, you are not.

It's just this insane level of fandom where you're so invested that you become a terrorizer of people. I read the Mark Lannigan book and it ends with him going to rehab. And I'm fairly certain that he says like Courtney paid for it. Yeah. And it's, I was, I was weirdly deep. moved by that. Like, that book is so harrowing. And it's, it's so, it's so clearly communicated that she saved his life, basically. He says it. Yeah. Listen, is she a difficult and problematic person in many ways? Sure. But she's also, like, a fiercely loyal and I think ultimately, like, morally good

person, you know? And that's really what matters. Yeah. As a final question, are there any other albums that you found in the trash like this? I'm just, was this a common occurrence? Is this the only time it happened? It was the only time that I found an album in the trash. Pork soda by Primus, just leaning on the, yeah, okay. Where it belongs. That is such a beautiful origin story. Yassi, it was wonderful to talk to you.

You're going to be back seven or eight more times. I can't wait. Neither can I. Thank you so much. Thanks so much to our guest this week, Yassi Salick. Thanks, as always to our producers, Jonathan Kerma and Justin Sales. And thanks very much to you for listening. And now, without further ado, here is Hole with Doll Parts.

We'll see you next week.