60 Songs That Explain the '90s - “Iris”—Goo Goo Dolls

Episode Date: January 31, 2024

Rob looks back at the movie ‘High Fidelity’ and observes the similarities between himself and one of the characters, who is also named Rob. Somewhere along the way, our Rob focuses in on Matthew Sweet, the Knack, Material Issue, and other artists singing power-pop songs about women they usually don’t get in the end. Finally, Rob gives attention to the Goo Goo Dolls and “Iris.” Later, Rob is joined by Niko Stratis to discuss the unavoidable nature of “Iris” while working retail jobs in the ’90s and much more. Host: Rob Harvilla Guest: Niko Stratis Producers: Jonathan Kermah and Justin Sayles Additional Production Support: Chloe Clark Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Did Don Draper really buy the world of Coke? Did Tony Soprano really die? Or just order more onion rings? The finales of our favorite shows can make us argue, make us cry, and make us crazy. From Spotify and the Ringer, I'm Andy Greenwald, and this is Stick the Landing, a new podcast where we'll be telling the story of modern TV backwards, one fade out at a time. Find Stick the Landing on Wednesdays on the prestige TV feed, on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Do I love him? And do I profoundly and disastrously relate to him because his name is Rob also?

Or somehow is his name also Rob because I love him and profoundly and disastrously relate to him? You stay out of it. A while back, Dick Berry and I agreed that what really matters is what you like, not what you are like. Books, records, films, these things matter. Call me shallow. It's the fucking truth. It is the year 2000. The movie is called High Fidelity.

The 1995 best-selling Nick Hornby novel on which this movie is based is also called High Fidelity. The actor's name is John Cusack. John Cusack's character in High Fidelity is named Rob. Dick and Barry are Rob's friends. The main character's name is Rob in the book as well. Therefore, On account of the fact that I am named Rob, also, I love Rob in high fidelity and disastrously relate to him, or my love for him somehow manifested him, or at least manifested that his name is Rob.

I don't mean to be rude saying you stay out of it. I'm telling you to stay out of it for your own protection and well-being. This is the nicest thing I will ever do for you. I am throwing myself on the grenade that is, myself. You don't have to avoid all people named Rob necessarily, but definitely avoid him and me. Nobody worries about kids listening to thousands, literally thousands of songs about heartbreak, rejection, pain, misery, and loss. Did I listen to pop music because I was miserable? Or was I miserable because I listened to pop music? In my case, it was both. In the early 2000, I owned four DVDs, four movies. These four movies are high fidelity, gross point blank, also starring John Cusack,

The Royal Tenant Bombs, and Amelie. I was a bit of a cinephile. And my buddies and I, we'd watch my DVD of high fidelity, and my buddies would go, you know, Rob in the movie is a lot like you, Rob, and I'd be like, yes. Yes, that is correct. This is a good thing. That is a flattering comparison. He loves music.

I love music. People love John Cusack. Therefore, people love me. Splendid. Thank you. I was dating a misfortunate young woman at the time. And I says to her, hey, the guys all think I'm a lot like John Cusack.

I'm like Rob and high fidelity. And she goes, yep, I don't like your friends, but I agree with that. And I go, yes, splendid, tremendous. Thank you. And then a few months later, she broke up with me. And I went, You should have got to be heard. I have never yelled those words out a window at a fleeing lady friend.

I don't think I've ever yelled anything out a window at a lady or yelled anything at a lady at all. Not that I'm bragging. Not that I'm expecting like a round of applause for never yelling at a lady, though I'm not opposed to a round of applause for never doing that. If you do get the overwhelming urge to applaud me, it would be rude of me to stop you. But I did think it was super funny. and perhaps even relatable when movie Rob

yelled that. High fidelity, our hero Rob, played by John Cusack, is a loser record store owner whose longtime girlfriend just broke up with him because he's a narcissistic,

immature, inconsiderate, music-obsessed jerk-off. And movie Rob flips out and immediately reels off his top five worst breakups, and then he hunts down and badgers all his ex-girlfriends to find out why they broke up with him,

And all of them say, in essence, well, Rob, you were a narcissistic, immature, and considerate music-obsessed jerk off. And movie Rob goes, oh, and then he spends the whole rest of the movie hanging out with his friends slash employees at the record store. The book's plot and whole vibe is basically the same, except that the book is set in London and the movie is set in Chicago. And also, Jack Black's not in the book. If you only do one thing that I tell you to do ever, first of all,

good for you. And second of all, the one thing I'm telling you to do that you should actually do is rewatch the scene in high fidelity where Jack Black sings, let's get it on. And just watch Jack Black's face when he goes, wow. You're welcome. Feel free to give me a second round of applause. Movie Rob is ostensibly the hero of high fidelity. Which, is ostensibly a romantic comedy in which movie Rob is a narcissistic and mature and considerate music-obsessed jerk off who loses his girlfriend and so he mopes and whines and rages and reels off other useless top five lists and reorganizes his whole record collection autobiographically and badgers all his other ex-girlfriends while experiencing just enough

character growth that his most recent ex-girlfriend eventually takes pity on him and takes him back. Q Stevie Wonder roll credits. Also, in the single best scene in the movie, Movie Rob, while sitting in his record store, announces that he's going to sell five copies of the three EPs by the beta band. And then he puts on the beta band song, Dry the Rain, and everyone starts vibing and they love it. And he sells five copies immediately, and it's hilarious.

Best Rock Critic joke of all time. This isn't fun at all necessarily. But fun fact, the best song on the three. EPs by the beta band is actually called She's the One. It's just those two chords for like the first five minutes of the song. It's great. It's hypnotic. I believe that I put She's the One on a mixtape for a lady friend once for the high fidelity lady actually.

And later she was like, yeah, I did not like that beta band song at all. She's like, that song is dumb. When they start singing in funny high voices, that's dumb. And I was like, oh, I'm sorry. You don't have to listen to it. I'm sorry. That is kind of dumb, I guess. Well, okay, yeah, okay.

You know a very funny part of high fidelity when movie robs on the phone with his mom and he tells her about the breakup and she starts giving him shit and he tells her to shut up? I would never do or say this, of course, which only makes it funnier. Apart from you meet someone, you move in.

She go! Shut up, mom. Damn, that's some cold shit. In case this isn't clear to you, because apparently this wasn't clear to me, this is not a person you want to emulate or be compared to by your ostensible loved ones. High Fidelity is a horror movie disguised as a rom-com,

and movie Robb is the monster. It's like how people slowly realize that Ferris Bueller is the villain of Ferris Bueller's Day Off, but now Ferris Bueller is way older, and he likes massive attack. John Cusack, for a few years now, has done this thing where he tours with his movies. He'll come to your city,

to a nice, fancy theater in your city, and they'll screen one of his movies, and John Cusack will come out afterward and do a jovial little Q&A-type talk about it. What's he got coming up here, touring-wise? Let's see. He's doing Gross Point Blank in Atlanta. I own that movie on DVD.

He's doing Say Anything in Denver and St. Louis, And ah, here, he's doing high fidelity in New York City and also Chandler, Arizona. Awesome. So I went to a high fidelity screening hosted by John Cusack, a couple of years back in Columbus, Ohio. You know the best part? You know what makes me elite? I took my wife. True story.

It wasn't entirely my idea, but it was mostly my idea. She was into it. I'm almost positive about that. So we go and we watch the movie. The movie ends. John Cusack saunteres out. Everyone applauds. Somebody interviews John Cusack on stage. And then they set up a microphone in the aisle. And people in the crowd can come stand in line and ask John Cusack a question to his face. And hand to God, I considered going up there and saying to John Cusack, my question was going to be like, hey, my name is Rob. And people used to say that I was like Rob in the movie. I was like you. But eventually I realized that being like you in that movie, was a bad thing and I'm much cooler now. Honest. It was really more of a comment than a question.

Like via an audience Q&A session with John Kusack at the Palace Theater in Columbus, Ohio, I was going to attempt the thing where I'm self-deprecating, but in a way that's actually ultimately self-aggrandizing, except I was going to do it in front of John Kusack, my wife, and also several thousand other people. This show, this whole podcast is not like that at all, by the way. None of this counts as self-aggrandizement by a self-deprecation. This is different. But in front of John Cusack, I was going to try and get a big laugh, right?

But a big laugh at myself then that also made me look much cooler and more admirable now. I didn't do it. That's a tough needle to thread in public. Way too complicated. Also, it's dumb. And I realize that now. Now, I know it's dumb because I'm even cooler now. And I think that might be worth a third round of applause.

Now, the making of a good compilation tape is a very subtle art, many do's and don'ts. First of all, you're using someone else's poetry to express how you feel. This is a delicate thing. This is actually the start of movie Rob's big revelatory and redemptive moment in high fidelity. His long-suffering ex-girlfriend. Her name is Laura. She's played by the Danish actress Ibn Yele. She's great.

Laura has taken pity on him and taken him back, but then movie Rob meet some other cute girl, and he starts making the cute girl a compilation tape, a cassette mixed tape, just on horn dog instinct. But then he realizes that the cute girl is a fantasy, and fantasy girls are ultimately boring because they're not real and they don't have any problems. And he and Laura have tons of problems, but at least she's real, et cetera. He says all this to Laura and asks her to marry him and she just laughs at him. Great scene. This counts as character growth for movie Rob, and I recognize it as character growth now, but at first I was still hung up on those rules for making a great mixtape, and I was for sure still hung up on the fantasy. The year is 1991. His name is Matthew Sweet. The song is called Girlfriend, and the Matthew Sweet song, Girlfriend, kicks tremendous, and heretofore, unetheworthy, and heretofore, unheard of amounts of ass.

I am 13 years old and all I have her problems and all I do is listen to the radio and all I want is a girlfriend. And so I wallow in my problems and listen to Matthew Sweet on the radio and I want what Matthew Sweet wants. Matthew Sweet is what I like and also what I am like. Matthew Sweet's poetry expresses how I feel. Matthew Sweet was born in Lincoln, Nebraska. and went to college in Athens, Georgia in the mid-80s. He's part of the R.E.M. extended universe, if that's important to you. Of course it is. He has a phenomenal rock and roll name, first of all, and it's basically

his real name. Matthew is his middle name. He was born Sydney Matthew Sweet. Good choice going with the middle name. The first two Matthew Sweet albums are not a success, commercially or otherwise. He debuts unceivusely in 1986 with an album called Inside. This song is called quiet her, not quiet as an adjective. Quiet as a verb. As in he will make her quiet. But, you know, he will make her quiet with the phenomenally high quality of his love and support. I'd like to know the exact words Matthew thinks she needs to hear, actually.

This record inside came out on Columbia Records, on a major label, and it apparently has 10 different producers working in, 17 different studios. It's one of these arduous, nobody has any idea what to do, so everybody tries situations. And given that we've got way too many cooks working in way too many kitchens, it's frankly impressive that Matthew Sweet's voice

is even audible, though sometimes it might be better for the titular her in the song, Quiet Her, if he was less audible. Maybe he means something else. Maybe that's a metaphor for something else. Yeah, it's got to mean something else. In any event, I'm guessing she was quiet after he said that. Am I right? I'm sure it'll be fine as long as he doesn't say it again. It goes on,

okay, well, okay, never mind. That's fine. He's owning it. The album inside is out of print in the spiritual and literal sense. If you really want to hear this record now, it's very much a vinyl rip on YouTube situation, if that means anything to you? Of course it does. More prominent in the historical record is Matthew Sweet's second album, released in 1989, on another major label and called Earth. One early problem is that Matthew is just naming his albums after random nouns. Another early problem, the keyboards. Do you ever wonder what a producer, what a record producer does, really? or what a record producer should do?

I'll tell you, in this specific instance, on the 1989 Matthew Sweet song called Underground, ideally, the record producer is the person in the studio who's sitting in the control booth behind the giant mixing board and holding a microphone so they can talk to everybody in the studio. And ideally, right here, the producer goes, will the keyboard player sorry but hey attention to the keyboard player

your headlights are still on in your car in the parking lot you might want to go take care of that and the keyboard player runs out to the parking lot and the producer locks the studio doors and will not let the keyboard player back in the studio until it is no longer the 80s

that is a record producer's job, ideally. In the event that Matthew Sweet himself played, that keyboard, fine. Matthew Sweet himself should wait until it is no longer the 80s. Frankly, I cannot process the idea of Matthew Sweet even being alive in the 80s. It's unnatural. Just wait a year, dude. This record inside is streaming officially, at least, and produce. or wise, there are fewer cooks in fewer kitchens, though still way too many keyboards. But

nonetheless, this music has its charms, or at least the tremendous and heretofore unheard of ass-kicking charms of Matthew Sweet's voice. Listen, who among us has not dreamt of cruising with a pretty little vixen? I love Matthew Sweet's voice very much. The titular sweetness, yes, but the steelyness, too, the bite, the cheerful but palpable unease, even if you want to hear him that way. Matthew Sweet to my mind, he is a titan, he is a god, he is a pantheon-level luminary in the distinguished genre of power pop, pop but tougher, rock and roll but sweeter, ecstatic bummer anthems about girls. That's an oversimplification, but what isn't?

What's power pop? Who's power pop? What's the fastest way to summarize? Okay, here, My Sharona by the NAC. Bonus points for giving the girl a name. It goes on. Allegedly, my Sharona is also about getting off without the one you love physically present.

But you didn't hear that from me. Ugh. Rob. The first album by the Nack. called Get the Knack from 1979. This album is on Kurt Cobain's famous Nirvana Top 50 list, his 50 favorite albums of all time. Within the specific context of imagining Kirk Cobain personally listening to his 50 favorite albums,

Get the Knack is my favorite of Kurt Cobain's favorite albums. Just phenomenal. Power Pop, the Nack, the cars, the raspberries, the D.Bs, the romantics, The bangles, it's not all dudes, and the bands aren't all named after random nouns, but the random nouns don't hurt. Cheap tricks, squeeze, big star, if you want to get ambitious. Not every band often classified as Power Pop wants to be classified as Power Pop. But that's so perfectly tragically Power Pop, though, isn't it?

It's apt. What distinguishes many of these bands, not all of them, but most of them, is that they didn't get quite as huge as they should have in the ever so humble opinions of the people who love them. Power Pop is an underdog genre and that the stars usually aren't huge rock stars and the singers don't usually get the girls they're usually singing about. The yearning is the point. The futility is the point. The futility is, shall we say, relatable. Power Pop flourishes in the 90s. Power Pop flourishes in a way that I don't. And at 13 years old, I just sit around moping and thinking about all the girls I can't have while listening to songs about girls the singers can't have. And just like in

the 70s and 80s, bonus points for giving the girl a name, even if the name you give her is Kim the Waitress. Kim the Waitress by the Great Chicago Power Pop Band Material Issue. They've got another great song called Going Through Your Purse, which is about going through a lady's purse. It's great. It's fine. It's charming. Kim, the Waitress is a song about feebly yearning for a waitress named Kim.

You know the best part of this song? You know the most relatable part of this song? That's my shit right there, my friends. The line before that is, I don't stand a ghost of a chance with her. amazing. She's pretty. So pretty. And it bothers me. Put it on my tombstone. That's melodramatic. Use it as my yearbook quote. Teenage fan club. The great Scottish power pop band Teenage Fan Club. The Teenage Fan Club song, The Concept is my shit, my friends. She doesn't get a name. The girl doesn't get a name in the God Tier 1991 teenage fan club song called The Concept.

But as I believe I have mentioned previously, this is a power pop all-timer nonetheless, simply for the way this dude wistfully and yearningly sings the words, Oh, yeah. Unbelievable. Truly unbelievable. When I'm listening to The Concept by Teenage Fan Club from their 1991 album Bandwagon-esque, I'll tell you, the straight face that the concept is one of my 10 favorite songs of all time. Famously,

infamously, famously, famously, or infamously, it depends. Memorably, Spin Magazine in 1991, declared that the best album of 1991 was bandwagon-esque by Teenage Fan Club. Other albums that came out in 1991 include Akhtung Baby, The Low End Theory, Metallic, 's Black album, Blood Sugar Sex Magic, Loveless by My Bloody Valentine, and Nirvana's Nevermind. Nope. Bandwagon-esque. Spin Magazine famously, or infamously, picked Teenage Fan Club over Nirvana. People argue about it to this day.

Don't hang around with those people. A lot of other robs among those people, leave them to it, but they do. And I argue about it, too, because I disagree. vehemently with Spin magazine because the best album of 1991 is actually Girlfriend by Matthew Sweet. This album rips,

dude. This album is wall-to-wall bangers. The cheesy keyboard players just pacing around the studio parking lot inaudibly. Girlfriend, the album is just Matthew Sweet, kicking ass, and naming names. Bonus

points abound. There are back-to-back songs on this album called Winona and Evangeline. Yes. Yes. Yes. He's almost definitely singing about that Winona. Oh my God.

I love the Matthew Sweet song Winona very much. Great pedal steel. And the concept of Matthew Sweet writing a song about noted movie star Winona Ryder and calling it Winona and ending the song by singing the line I feel alone. repeatedly, I think that is hilarious. And loving this song very much and finding it hilarious are not mutually exclusive. When I was 13, Matthew Sweet singing, I Feel Alone was what I liked and what I was like. You got to be down bad as a 13-year-old to vibe this hard to a song sung by a guy down this bad. Evangeline is substantially more upbeat.

But in Power Pop, sometimes when it gets more upbeat, that just means that the singer's down even badder. The guitars on this album, dude. Matthew Sweet is the absolute best. I had a beer recently with a dear friend of mine who used to work for a rad local Columbus, Ohio independent alternative rock station, CD 101, as it was known in the 90s and early aughts. And the radio station initially shared a building with an auto repair shop, and Matthew Sweet would always come into town and hang out. And Matthew Sweet once signed a muffler, an actual physical automobile muffler. And that muffler became a mythic object at the radio station.

It was mounted above someone's desk. I am so immensely pleased by the physical existence of a Matthew Sweet muffler. The Matthew Sweet Muffler is my holy grail. Listen to the whole girlfriend record on headphones. The room sound, man, the physical presence. The sense that you're listening to a bunch of rad dudes sitting in a room together playing rad guitars. Richard Lloyd from the band Television and Robert Quine, who worked with Lou Reed and Richard Hell and Brian Eno and tons of other rad people.

Richard Lloyd and Robert Quine play a lot of the guitars. on girlfriend and i got no idea who those guys are yet because i'm 13 but the guitars kick unprecedented amounts of ass as well and the guitars somehow kick more ass the janglier the softer the sweeter the sweeter they get this song is called i've been waiting and it sounded immaculate on the radio and few messages i heard on the radio as a 13-year-old resonated as strongly as i didn't think I think I'd find you, perfect in so many ways, but I've been waiting, waiting, and I want to have you. It's not that I disagree with movie Rob, with John Cusack and High Fidelity, when he talks about kids warping their brains by listening to thousands of songs about heartbreak, rejection, pain, misery,

and loss. But I don't think those are the songs that warped my brain. I think what warped my 13 to 33-year-old brain were the thousands of upbeat and even joyful songs rhapsodizing some usually nameless fantasy girl and attempting to woo that nameless fantasy girlfriend via overbearing self-deprecation. It doesn't sound like it at all, but I am trying to focus here, and so I'll spare you my whole internal debate about how Matthew Sweet's 1995 album 100% fun

might be an even better album than girlfriend. But suffice it to say that the song, Sick of Myself, kicks unprecedented amounts of ass, even though Matthew Sweet has already provided a tremendous precedent, right? Put, I'm sick of myself when I look at you on the other side of my tombstone. Put it on side B of my tombstone.

Stone. This song is called Not When I Need It. And I love Matthew Sweet's voice on this song very much. And yet I apologize for this in advance. He means something else. He's talking about something else. Don't worry about it. It's fine. I worry about myself. At 13, listening to thousands of songs on this topic, I want her. I need her. Often, I've never spoken to her, but I want her so bad. I want her so bad I hate myself. She will complete me. Forget completing me. She will comprise my entire identity.

Song sung by sad boys who've dug themselves into mopey bottomless pits singing up at fantasy girls marooned on impossibly high pedestals. Quick, what's the second song you think of by that band

Vertical Horizon? I don't know what the fantasy girl is supposed to do with this information. The fantasy girls think their pedestals are way too high. Their pedestals are wobbling dangerously in the breeze. They can't even breathe up there. They just want to climb down from there. Thousands of songs about how their gods and I am not. Songs about Elise, Veronica, Beth, Angie, Allison, Anna, Martha, Mary Jane, Mary Jane, Maggie May, Kate, Elizabeth, Eileen, Roxanne, Suzanne with a Z, Leonard Cohen, Suzanne with an S, Weezer, and Little Susie, for starters, thousands of these girls, with absolutely nothing in common other than their dismaying

lack of physical proximity to me. Hit it, Canadian singer-songwriter Tal Bachman. Yo, please get me down from here, says the fantasy girl, in response to Canadian singer-songwriter, songwriter Tal Bachman. I don't want to be like Cleopatra, Joan of Arc or Aphrodite. Joan of Arc. Really? No, thank you. I am your waitress, Tal. Chill out. Are you going to order something else? Or can I bring you the check? And I'd take all these songs and I'd make compilation tapes, mixed tapes. Songs about fantasy girls that I would curate and sequence and painstakingly record, and then I'd hand the tape

to an actual girl I knew who was in constant danger of becoming a fantasy girl, of having a fantasy girl identity superimposed by me over her real identity. When I hand a girl a tape with a Matthew Sweet song,

Your Sweet Voice on it, whose sweet voice are we talking about? Exactly. Her sweet voice, or Matthew Sweet, voice or my own distinctly sour voice. Girlfriend is a better Matthew Sweet album, but it's really close. When I say my distinctly sour voice, now that's not me being secretly self-aggrandizing.

It's different now. Trust me. And what did I ever even want, really, from the fantasy girl? I couldn't have told you. The whole point of using someone else's poetry to express how you feel is that you don't really know how you feel. and so you outsource the job, right? If I really knew who I was, I'd just tell you, but I don't know. And so here's a song I found by a guy singing about how he wants you to find out.

Hit it, Johnny. My name is Rob Harvilla. This is the 115th episode of 60 songs that explained the 90s, and this week we are talking about Iris by the Goo Goo Goo Dolls. From their 1998 album Dizzy Up the Girl, and also from the soundtrack to the 1998 romantic drama City of Angels. Nicholas Cage and Meg Ryan. Gougu Doll's frontman Johnny Resnick talking to classic rock magazine.

Oof! Johnny once described the movie City of Angels by saying, quote, I didn't actually think it was very good. I just thought it was a sanitized version of Wings of Desire, end quote. Oof. Rude but fair. Wings of Desire.

of Vim Vendors movie from 1987. Johnny's a bit of a cinephile, and he just wants you to know it. Also, my editor thought I didn't know how to pronounce Vim Vendors, and that's even ruder. I just want you to know who I am. Put it on a giant

flashing neon sign with an arrow pointed at my tombstone. Good gravy, let's get this show on the road. Shall we? The Gougu Dolls. A very silly band name, they would repeatedly vocally profoundly regret. The Gougu Dolls formed in Buffalo, New York in 1986. Buffalo is the Ohio of New York State. I will not elaborate on this. You're welcome. You may be aware that relatively

few people were aware of the Gougu Dolls for the first five to seven years of their existence, and that this band used to sound way trashier. The first Gugu Dolls album, self-titled, out in 1987. This song is called scream, and they're not being ironic. Hit it, fellas. I'm not positive what he's screaming there, exactly, and I don't think I want to know,

but the internet is trying to convince me that his last lines there are, scream and dream of my little love. Oh, I got to find my glove. And see, this validates my earlier impulse to not want to know. At the onset, when the band forms in Buffalo in 1986.

The Goo Goo Dolls consist of in ascending order of prominence drummer George Tatatska guitarist Johnny Resnick and bassist

and lead vocalist Robbie Takeak whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Robbie. Not just Rob, but Robbie.

Not just Robbie, but Robbie with a Y, the superior form of Robbie. Excellent. All right. Who is this guy? Tell me more about Robbie. Who's Robbie? He's the lead singer of the Goo Goo Goo Dolls. That's who. Robbie's got pink hair these days. Robbie looks like a Robbie and he looks like a guy who's been in a Buffalo rock band for nearly 40 years.

I interviewed the Goo Goo Dolls for the Ringer in 2019 and Robbie talked about how they first got into rock and roll as teenagers by listening to Ramon's records. Robbie called the Ramones like training wheels for guys in a band. If you're wondering what it's like when I interview a rock band, it's like when I interview somebody for this show, but with an additional heightened, awkward power imbalance. It's awesome. The Goo Goo Dolls, as of 2019, have long consisted officially of Johnny and Robbie. They talked a lot to me about how committed they were to each other.

Johnny says, quote, we're all fascinated by young, shiny, beautiful things, you know? but being in a band is like being married. Are you going to do the work? Or are you going to complain to the fucking press about how unsatisfied you are? The relationship takes work. The band has always been me and Robbie. We've had various drummers over the last 30 years,

but none that did any writing of any consequence. You just have to do the work. We made an agreement. All right, I'm sticking with you. You're sticking with me. fuck everybody else. End quote. Would you like to hear an early Go-Goo-Doll song called Sex-Maggot?

Of course you would. That could have been funnier, in my opinion. Some places that says that the Goo-Dolls originally used the band name Sex-Maggat, but then some club owner wouldn't put Sex-Magget on the marquee, and so the band was like, fine, the Goo-Goo-Dalls. The road not taken. You know, that's off the second Goo-Doules record, released in 1989 and called Jed.

On their first three albums, the Goo Goo Dolls cover Don't Fear the Reaper, Sunshine of Your Love, Give Me Shelter, Down on the Corner by Creedence Clearwater Revival, a million miles away by the Plym Souls, Power Pop Classic, and Princes, I Could Never Take the Place of Your Man. For the Credence and Prince covers, they get their buddy Lance Diamond to sing lead. Lance Diamond is described by the Buffalo Music Hall of Fame,

which exists as, quote, the hardest working man in Buffalo's show business. And I am in no position to dispute that title. Hit it, Lance. And a few things happen, right? Slowly but steadily

as you enjoy the Goo Goo Dolls' discography in chronological order. By the time you get to album number three, released in 1990 and called Hold Me Up, you hear less screaming. You hear more studio polish. You hear less sex maggot type trashiness. You hear more scruffy but undeniable hookiness. And you hear less of Robbie. A fellow lead

vocalist has emerged. And he will never supplant Robbie entirely. But just when you're used to the idea of the Gougu dolls as nothing less and nothing more than the Buffalo Ramones, then you hit a song called There You Are and There He Is. It's the high note there. Right? You are. That's when you know. Johnny Resnick, guitarist and increasingly fellow lead vocalist, has emerged increasingly

as the focal point of the Goo Goo Goo Dolls. This song is called Just the Way You Are because that's the way he likes you. How could you deal with someone sorry, sad like me?

Because you're a God and I am not. High above me, she's so lovely. Sick of myself when I look at you. She's pretty and it bothers me. The Goo Goo Dolls are legit power pop until they get too successful to qualify as legit power pop.

The Goo Goo Dolls know the deal. The Goo Dolls know their rock and roll history. They know the winners and the losers in rock and roll history. And their strategy, whether Johnny and Robbie are conscious of this or not, is to become the winners by explicitly embracing the losers.

Okay. Let's do this. The fourth Goo Goo Dolls, album released in 1993 is called Superstar Car Wash, and it features a minor radio hit called We Are the Normal, in which Johnny Resnick writes the music, but Paul Westerberg writes the words. They collaborated through the mail and did not remain friends. Paul Westerberg, front man for the replacements, the pride of Minneapolis, Minnesota, one of them. They're up there. The replacements, trashy rock gods, punk rock gods.

college rock gods, alternative rock gods. High above me and majestically unlovely. The best rock band ever born, maybe. The best rock band that never got as big as they deserve to get. Absolutely. The Google Dolls arc not so subtly echoes the replacements arc. Early bradiness leads slowly but steadily to an escalating shininess and hockiness and sweetness and greatness. A little more power and a lot more pop, but the replacements never have an ultra-breakout hit. The greatness of the replacements is never sufficiently acknowledged. The replacements never succeed. The replacements implode in tragedy and disillusionment at the dawn of the 90s. And Paul Westerberg haunts the 90s and far beyond as a gruff, unappreciated, self-sabotaging super genius who puts out pretty cool but underloved solo albums. He gets to be an

Honorary Seattleite on the singles soundtrack. He gets to be our link with history. And he gets to watch a bunch of scruffy, sensitive punk 90s rockers get famous for doing pretty good, but objectively not as good versions of what he already did. Listen, dude, I loved soul asylum when I was 13, but soul asylum ain't coming close to this. This song is called Bastards of Young. It's off the 1985 Replacements album. Tim, and these are among the greatest song lyrics ever written. If we're talking

Replacements albums as a whole, I'm a let it be man myself, their 1984 album, Let It Be, Androgynous is the second best replacement song. Let's not argue about this. But so the replacements now in 2024 are a relentlessly beloved and canonized and mourned and constantly reissued band, right? The journalist Bob Mayer wrote Trouble The True Story of the Replacements, one of the best and one of the saddest band biographies I've ever read. And pretty much every replacement's album now has a super deluxe multi-CD box set reissue with seemingly thousands of bonus tracks and rapturous liner notes. Most recently, you can buy a $90 reissue of their 1985 album, Tim, four CDs and one LP. And the Crown Jewel here, and I'll spare you the details.

The Crown Jewel is a radically brand new mix of Tim, of the original record itself, a cleaner, poppier, more commercially palatable mix. And now you can listen to this new superior version of Tim. And imagine that if this version of Tim had come out in 1985, then Bastards of Young would have been like, I don't know, a Bon Jovi-level radio smash. And the replacements would be the winners. The pitchfork review of this reissue written by Jeremy D. Larson is really great in exploring the alternative history of it all.

Grappling with this idea, if the replacements had succeeded, would they still be the replacements? And meanwhile, this Bastards of Young Verse consists of, to reiterate, some of the greatest song lyrics ever written. Is this new mix doing it for you? Honestly, though, the ones that love us best are the ones that love us best are the ones. will lay to rest, visit their graves on holidays at best. The ones who love us least are the ones will die to please. If it's any consolation, I don't begin to understand. It does not get any better than that. Very arguably, nobody ever gets any better than that. No offense, but the Goo Goo Dolls certainly never get any better than that, including when they get their hero, Paul Westerbub,

himself to write their lyrics. But we are the normal documents musically. So Johnny gets credit for this. One of the signature moments when college rock in the 80s becomes alternative rock in the 90s. And the replacements playing the losers give way to the Gougu dolls, playing the winners, starting now. It happens right here. That guitar, that crescendo, that burst of distortion right there. I'm in love.

What's that song? I'm in love with that song. The Goo Goo Goo Dolls own the 90s going forward. They co-own the 90s. They co-own the very specific realm of Power Pop too successful to qualify as Power Pop anymore. And they earn it. You give Johnny Resneck seven seconds

and he'll give you a hook you'll remember for the rest of your life. Yeah, I'm fading. That's seven seconds of the song Naked from the 1995 Gougu Dolls album called A Boy Named Goo. And that's a pretty rad seven seconds, if I do say so myself. Plenty of truly great Gougu Doll songs, seven seconds is all you need, really. You get the point. But a boy named Gou also features the first monster Gugu Doll's hit.

And this one earns all four minutes and 30 seconds. The Gougu Doll's song name. is not played on a 12-string guitar, apparently. It's got this bonkers open tuning, right? It's D-A-E-A-E, but it's not a 12-string. I have always associated this song with the 12-string guitar, with my admiration for and also seething hatred for the 12-string guitar. And I am honestly relieved to learn that name is not played on a 12-string guitar, because, as any novice guitar player, will tell you, it is literally impossible to play a 12-string guitar. I guarantee you that every amateur teenage guitarist in American history has at some point walked into a guitar center and seen

a 12-string guitar hanging on the wall, a nice, expensive one, a Martin or whatever, and the teenage guitarist thinks, I'm going to take this 12-string off the wall, and I'm going to play a beautiful dulcet rendition of name by the Gougu-Dalls. And the teenager reaches up for the 12-string guitar. And meanwhile, the 12-string guitar is looking down and it says, fucking no you are not. Unhand me. Villain, get back.

You can't play me for shit. You will hurt your hand. And oh, it will make a terrible sound. All the cats in a 15-mile radius all wailing atonally in unison, you will be banned from every guitar center nationwide. your dumbass looking photo wall behind the counter. Forget about it. Put me down.

Put me down on the ground. It's fine. Seriously, have you ever tried to play a 12-string guitar? Have you ever tried to play like an F chord, like a bar chord? Have you ever tried to hold down all 12 strings with one finger? Ow! Oh, it's horrible. It is an accursed musical instrument, the 12-string guitar.

affront to me personally. That's right, Mr. 12-string. The Goo-Goo-Dall song name is a regular guitar in a weird open tuning. So suck it. It's a lovely song, though, isn't it? Name? I also guarantee you that every amateur teenage guitarist has been dumbstruck by the shattering wisdom of the line. Don't it make you sad to know that life is more than who we are? That can't be true. I'd never noticed before that Johnny's voice wobbles just a smidge on the word sad or there's an implied wobble a faint echo of imperfect scuzziness nice try bud the goo-goo dolls are not cool they are never cool cool is not their objective when i talked to Johnny and Robbie who respected me as a true conversational equal it wasn't awkward at all Johnny remembered the 90s like this quote everybody was

too fucking cool for their own good There were certain musicians. You were out in L.A. And you're rehearsing in a rehearsal room. There's a common area. But if somebody from the wrong band was there, oh no, don't talk to them. They're not fucking cool. End quote.

And then in 1998, the Goo Goo Goo Dolls got truly, hopelessly, monumentally uncool. And you know what that means. It means they had a giant swooning hit song. Top 10, peaked at number nine, it's called Iris. It is, once again, to my modest surprise, not played on a 12-string guitar, so suck it. It is based on the plot of a movie. The plight of Nicholas Cage's character. He plays an angel named Seth, who falls in love with a lady doctor played by Meg Ryan.

In a movie Johnny Resnick didn't like that's based on a German movie from the 80s, Johnny did like. That's Wings of Desire from 1987. You pronounce it Vim Vendors. It's streaming on Max. Iris is rhythmically complex. According to a guy in a message board, the Iris intro is in straight 4-4 time. The verse and chorus are in 6-8 time. The interlude between the chorus and the second verse is 4-4 for three bars going back into 6-8 on the bar before the vocal start. The bridging guitar solo is 4-4, then back to 6-8 for the last chorus. But let's take a second here and think. about Robbie. Robbie with the pink hair nowadays. Robbie the guy who used to sing lead vocals all the time in a scuzzy rock band that maybe used to be called sex maggots. Robbie, the guy who grew up

idolizing the Ramones. Robbie, the guy who now writes and sings his punky, scruffy, lovable songs that fits splendidly between the giant bonkers radio hits that Johnny sings on the bonkers huge Goo Goo Dolls albums they're making now. Robbie, the guy who's jockey, who's jockey now bass-wise is to go do do do is is Robbie happy is he satisfied is he disillusioned is he bored as far as alternative rock goes the bigger the hit the less fun the bass line is to play that's an oversimplification but what isn't who am I kidding I'm sure Robbie is in fact just delighted that Iris will allow his band to tour lucratively until

the end of time. Iris is named after Iris Dement, the phenomenal singer-songwriter, Iris Dement. Johnny Resnick doesn't know Iris personally, I don't think. Johnny just saw Iris's name in the newspaper and liked it. But she's part of the vibe here regardless. For your reference, Iris Dement sounds like this. That song's called Our Town from the great 1990. Iris Dement album, Infamous Angels. So there you go.

Paul Westerberg is no longer in the mix. The Goo-Dall song Iris is solely a Johnny Resnick affair. Johnny had written name, and everyone loved name, and everyone wanted another name. So now he was contending with the enormous commercial pressure to write another name. And he was also between fantasy girls at the time.

In 2010, he told American songwriter, quote, my wife and I had just broken up and I'd met another girl who I was really into. I'd moved from my home in Buffalo, New York and was living in this hotel. So it was a really manic time in my life. I was looking for something to hold on to, end quote. My favorite thing that Johnny said to me when I interviewed him capably, he said, I don't know too many musicians who are on their first marriage.

I don't think I know any. End quote. I'm in no position to dispute him. Anyway, great time to watch an apparently lousy movie and write a super romantic song about an angel named Seth. There is a frustration with Johnny Resnick, lyrically, maybe. You know the meme, how often do men think about the Roman Empire? That's me with Paul Westerberg. You know that replacement song Within Your Reach that goes,

I can live without your touch if I can die within your reach. I'm paraphrasing slightly, but that's how I prefer to hear the line because once again, it doesn't get any better than that. And it is rude and unfair to penalize Johnny Resnick

for not getting any better than that. What you feel is what you are and what you are is beautiful. Pretty great. See the young man sitting in an old man's bar waiting for his turn to die. Harsh, but pretty great.

Black balloon. The whole song, even if there's no one line that I really like. Pretty great song. You know my favorite line in a Goo Goo Doll song? It's a pre-fame song. It's off their third album, Hold Me Up from 1990. The song's called Two Days in February. Johnny sings it.

It's about, well, let's say it's about a long-distance relationship that doesn't work out. Dig the car driving by here. Dig the ambient sense of February Buffalo slushiness. faith and things that you can't see. I'm sorry I ain't there with you, but you ain't here with me. I'm sorry I ain't there with you, but you ain't here with me. That's a great line. You can pretend that line is about something or someone else, if you want.

You can pretend that line is about having a top 10 hit song. It comes down to how mad you're willing to be at the Goo Goo Goo Dolls for winning, for thriving, often spectacularly, despite their clear debt to really various other bands, beloved now in a large part, because they failed spectacularly. Johnny and Robbie are too big to be cool. They're too poppy and too powerful to be power pop. But really, it comes down to me admitting that whatever super clever and beloved bands and songs and lyrics I might claim to love now.

When I was 18 years old, this was the most profound and important thing I'd ever heard. A yearning man with not a 12-string guitar, bellowing, I just want you to know who I am repeatedly. As the string section crescendos, the words want and know wobbling passionately. as Johnny repeats them. This is all I wanted as a teenager,

to be truly known and to be wanted by someone who truly knew me. Did I put Iris on an overwrought mixtape for an unfortunate young fantasy girl? Don't worry about it. Is my indescribably lovely and phenomenally patient wife now hovering high above me? Absolutely. Does what you like matter more than what you are like? Probably not. but when you're a teenager, there's no real functional difference.

And you know what I really want now? A muffler signed by Matthew Sweet. We are delighted to welcome back Nico Stratis. She's written for Paste, Spin, Band Camp, and many other fine publications. She is also the host of the podcast, Blue Eyes Crying by the Chips. Nico, it's great to talk to you again.

I'm so happy to be back. Thank you. I'm happy to have you back. Blue Eyes Crying by the Chips, I think, is the greatest podcast name going. So congratulations on that. Thank you. If nothing else, I've come up with a really good name, and I feel like I can quit the biz now. There we go.

Your work here is done. Yeah, my work on this earth is complete. The show is about songs that make you cry, you know, in the strange places where the songs make you cry. And so naturally, I wonder, have you ever cried while listening to Iris by the Goo Goo Dolls? And what were your circumstances when this occurred? I mean, do you want, like, are we going recency by us or are we going all time? Because I could tell you that I cried listening to Iris by the Goo Goo Dolls this morning at 7.37 a.m. At 737 a.m.

I looked at the clock as I was weeping and thought, here we are. You do more crying by 8 o'clock than most people do all day. That's beautiful. Let's go all time. Let's start with the all-time most significant Iris crying moment. I cried, I mean, I worked in a grocery store in the mid-to-late 1990s when the New Jersey were the kings of the radio. And definitely Iris made me cry at work while I was lying to someone about where something

was in the store because I was having a really. bad day. Yeah, we've all been there. That's beautiful. That's beautiful. Yeah. If you ever ask anybody under 20 where Nokia is in a grocery store and they tell you, they are lying to you.

They don't know where Nokia is because they don't know what Nokia is. And I knew this. I'm sorry. My wife is very particular about Nokia. And so she has very strong Nokia quality. feelings and so that is extra funny to me that that is that is the food stuff that you deny your customers that's that's such a beautiful beautiful thing that makes me want to cry just independent yeah yeah italians are crying listen to that that's right i it's weird you're absolutely right about

the google dolls being ubiquitous on the radio like in grocery stores and like cvS or whatever and i wonder like does it diminish like the intimacy the power of a song if you're hearing it and you're crying, hearing it in these sort of mundane, like, shopping environments? Or is that even more sort of beautiful and tragic, that that's physically where you are, you know, when this song hits you? I think it grounds it in this real sense of reality when you hear it in those places, right? Like, you have, like, the lighting is bad and you don't know anybody here. Like, you know one person you're avoiding them. They're on the other side of the store.

Like, it creates this very real, like, very human environment. think it kind of almost heightens. It's like when you watch a movie on an airplane and you're like oxygen is limited, so you cry, at least this is what happens to me. I feel like it's the same sort of thing, right? Where you're like, you're in this sort of isolation chamber of like, yeah, a drugstore, grocery store or whatever. And when I hear songs like this, they feel more real to me in a way. Like if I listen to it on my headphones, the production is better. It's more, it's lush. It's in my ears. And I'm like in a private little comfortable space. But like out in the world, the speakers aren't great. You really only hear in the high end.

And it just like, it becomes really raw in a way that it just isn't anywhere else. So it's like I'm, I'm surrounded by people, but I'm alone. It's that sort of feeling. Yeah, which is very appropriate for the song, too. Totally. I just before we started taping, you referred to Iris as, what was it, the saddest song ever? What, like, it's, I was very, I'm very interested in how you came to that conclusion. I think it is definitely, it is so listening back to this song.

Every now and I'll go like six months without listening to Iris because I just need to like stop feeling every emotion everywhere all at once. Sure. And it is just so like it is so emotionally intense and it is so overwrought that it just is kind of like it is the saddest song and the most appropriate song to cry to. Like I feel like you could use it as a litmus test for like to see if someone's a sociopath. You know, if it's like, oh, they hurt, they hurt puppies when they were kids. Like, if you've never cried to Iris, I feel like you should seek psychological help because you might need, you might need some guidance through this life. The next Blade Runner movie, they should just play Iris just to determine. Yeah.

Like tears in the rain. If they're human or not. There you go. Is it emotional because, like, obviously it's based on this movie, right? You know, like, and it's the most famous thing about City of Angels, I think, you know, if you don't mind my saying so. But are you sad because of the situation in the movie that the lyrics are literally describing? Or is it more of an ambient sort of sadness that you can apply to whatever is personally making you sad at that moment? I think it's an ambient sort of thing because truth be told, I've never seen the movie City of Angels.

And in fact, when I knew we were going to talk about this, I read the Wikipedia plot to the movie City of Angels starring Nicholas Cage and Meg Ryan. And it sounds ridiculous, but it stars Nicholas Cage that also attracts. I had a thought with this song, though, which is that, like, for me, very, very specifically, Iris is very a very trans song. It is very much about, like, not wanting to be perceived, but also the desperation for one person that you want to love you, to also to see who you really are. Like, when I was a teenager, when this song came out, I was thinking about this. I'm like, yes, this is why this song resonated so much with me, is because I was in,

that very specific space that is like an angel or a vampire or whatever. Like this was like a common motif in those sorts of storytelling, right? Of like you're trying to hide who you are from the world, but you want one person to see you. And like it is also like a very thing for like young closeted trans Nico of like this is a very powerful statement. I just want you to know who I am. Yeah. That's beautiful. That's perfect. That absolutely makes sense. I we taught the last time about the verve, you know, you feel very strongly about the counting crows, of course. Like, I wonder just where the Gougu dolls fit into your personal pantheon. They're up, like, the Gougou dolls are like one of those bands that if someone is like, oh, I really love the Gougar dolls. Like,

do you want to talk about slide or name or whatever? It is like a password that like people share with each other. Like, yeah, right. No, I'm also down with this band. I love this. And it is like a nice common thread. Like, they're one of the great 90s bands that kind of got forgotten. And over time, like when people talk about the 90s, they talk about all the bigger bands of that era. But the Google dolls were everywhere when they were big. Like, you couldn't escape those songs. They were monster hits. And I think they're like one of the all-time greats.

Like, what about you? Like, where are they for you? I mean, this is what I'm curious about. I also worked at a grocery store in the late 90s. And so I know exactly what you're talking about. You know, like when I hear name, like I start pantomiming bagging groceries, right? that totally i have that absolute association and i really dig like you know it being a little tinny you know you being surrounded by people but just like lost in your thoughts like you know don't

make you sad to know that life is more than who we are you know like i just that's a very profound realization to have you know well i'm putting like milk in a in a paper bag or whatever right like and so in it's hard for me to separate the goo goo dole's overall from those circumstances right you know, like the late 90s, CVS, you know, bad lighting, all of it. That makes total sense to me. It's,

I think it's weird because, like, Iris is like 1.5 billion plays or something like this. I think Iris separate from the rest of the Google Dolls catalog, even though they have huge hit songs, even though they have like hundreds of thousands of plays. Like, I think Iris has far in a way separated itself from the rest of the bands. Yeah.

You know, Uvra, right? Because they have like eight to 10 records. They have like a dozen like immediately recognizable hit songs. Like we're not even close to a one hit wonder situation here. But I do. It's always fascinating to me when one song, even if it was their biggest song at the time, when one song like 20, 30 years later is like clearly far and away in a different category from everything else they ever did.

You know what I mean? Sure. I mean, it's the Celine Dion effect, right? Of like everybody thinks of the one song. Right, right. Sure. Yeah. Does it surprise you that Iris like took on, is Iris their best song, I guess is the best way to put it? You know, is this, is this the clear winner among even the biggest and the best Gougu dolls songs? I think it would be the best introduction to who the band sort of became. Like if someone was like, I don't know this, I don't know the Gougu Dolls. I would like to listen to them. I would give them Iris and I would say, if you like this, I'm going to give you some other songs to like. I'm going to give you some other songs to. listen to. And if you don't like this, this is going to be a difficult battle. Because like, it is very, it's very big. It's very, it's very loud and its emotions, right? Like more so than like, name is a really sad song, but sad in such a different way, sad and a very subdued, quiet way.

It's pondering, whereas like, yeah, it's extremely modest. And like, if you know the story behind name, it becomes extremely sad too. And like, Iris is like very loud and very bored, bold and very orchestral and it's yearning and it's pleading and it's just like it's so much it's a very teenage song right because it's like you know working in the grocery store and you're a teenager this is also when your emotions really start to come online and you're starting to like have these big feelings that feel so important that like now in my 40s I'm like why did I ever care about any of that stuff but at the time it was so real and so present right and it feels like it sort of speaks to that time of your life too yeah I mean for me it's a mixtape song right you know and I would you know

I just want you to know who I am is like my message to whoever the girl is who I'm giving this tape to. Like, have you ever put Iris on a mixtape for someone for ostensibly romantic purposes? For sure. I made a mixtape for a girl that had a crush on in junior high. And she did not like me back. And I don't know if she really liked the tape all that much. I mean, look, I made it through okay. I don't know where she is now, but I hope she's well. I hope she thinks of it.

You turned out okay. Yeah. I think we both did all right. I hope she still has that tape and thinks about it, you know, every now and then. Because I try to time it just right so it ends on Iris, you know, because that's that you're the emotional climate. You can't start with Iris. God, can you imagine? Wow.

Yeah. Yeah. No. I cannot imagine that. Yeah, that is too powerful a physical object, a mixtape that starts with Iris. No. Absolutely no way. Do you remember what else was on it?

I think I definitely had counting crows on there for sure. Sure. Nervon. I would like have like a nirvana and a whole song on everything. You know, I really tried to like, you try to ride the waves, right? You're like, we're going to get loud and then we're going to go quiet and then we're going to get a little bit reflective. And like, you put a Beatles song on there because you want to seem cool and like. Your classic. Yeah, yeah. I'm an old soul. I carry a briefcase to school or whatever. Yeah. Did you, I'm curious to hear about your own mixtape making. Did you, did you go down this

row? Did you put IRS on a, on a tape for someone? At least once, yes, yes, absolutely. And I was trying to think of what else was on mine. I was going through a major super drag period. Oh, wow. I don't even remember the song. It was in sort of the context of power pop for me, right? Like Matthew Sweet's material issue, you know, the posies, stuff like that.

You know, just sad songs about girls, you know, and I would just line them up. I'm trying to create that sort of that sort of arc that you're describing, you know, but a lot more one note. I could have used a Beatles song, quite frankly. That would have broken up the, you know, the 90s doodliness a little bit. Put the Gandharvas or something in there just to like set a different tone for a couple of minutes and then, yeah, back into it. See, you're way better at this than I ever was. So that's, I wish you'd been around the time to coach me.

You're writing a book about Dad Rock, and so I wonder if the Goo Goo Dolls, to your mind, qualify as Dad Rock. Yeah, because I think they take influences from a lot of things that I would consider to be Dad Rock. And I think when my book comes out, people are going to be mad at me about what I consider to be Dad Rock, because I have made some decisions. That's fine. I have made some decisions within the page, and people have to live with it. And one of the bands I have chosen to be a Dad Rock band as the replacements. Sure. Because I think the replacements and Paul Westenberg in particular are dad rock songwriters through and through.

And I think that Goo Goo Dolls take a lot from that. And they would have, especially now, you know, like if you were to look back on the era now, like this is, that's a classic dad rock era. But even at the time, you know, that stuff sort of stood out from a lot of other songs you would hear on the radio. It's a bit more earnest, like in a kind of corny way, but like a corny way that you secretly find beautiful, but you don't want to tell anybody about it. Okay, because I was going to ask you, like, what, what quality does Paul Westberg has, have that makes him dad rock? And it's the corny, it's the dad joke, but, but beautiful and sad and earnest, that sort of vibe. Yeah. And also this, like, I think a lot about, because I'm partially thinking about my own dad too and, like, thinking of like, what is a dad and sort of

breaking dad away from gender a little bit and trying to break that down and, like, you know, a thing that Westerberg does really well, that a lot of these songwriters do really well is, like, there's like there's an earnestness and a cornyness, but it's also like, here's all the mistakes I made. I'm not telling you that they were good or bad decisions. I'm just showing you the decisions that I have made, that I'm somehow still here to tell you about them, you know? Or I'm like, I'm imparting knowledge without ever, like, telling you what to do. And I think that's a really strong dad thing, or at least for me, because that's how my dad was

and continues to be of like, here's what I did. I'm not telling you what to do, but here's what I did. And I think Paul Westerberg does a lot of that. Like, here's all the things I did that were really weird and messy. And here's all the ways I've kind of fucked up my life. And maybe don't do everything I did, but maybe try some of it. because some of it was weird and fun, you know? Maybe don't do any of it, really.

Yeah. I get what you mean. It's so weird in retrospect thinking about like the goo-goo dolls, but also like Soul Asylum, the gin blossoms, like all the bands that were huge in the 90s that clearly were so influenced by the replacements. Like, where are you on it being sort of heartbreaking that the replacements themselves never had an Iris moment? I mean, people talk about this new reissue, this remaster, whatever,

the new production on Tim and like, oh, if this had come out in 1985, they'd be Goo Goo Dolls huge now. Like, where are you on all that? I don't think that's necessarily true because that was never the sort of songs they were writing. You know, like, you think about like, Paul Westroberg, I mean, all of their replacements are really, they're always sort of denying their own emotions. There's a lot of, like, there's a lot of subterfuge. There's a lot of, like, you know, Paul's like wearing seven different masks at any given time when they're all smoking a cigarette,

you know, just to sort of, like, create this air of mystery and to sort of have you look away when he's getting a little bit too self-serious. And that stuff sort of starts to appear later in his, like, more solo dad work, which I actually really like.

But, like, replacements, especially, like, that, listening to that remaster of Tim, I'm like, it's cleaner. It would fit on the radio, but I don't know if these sort of songs, because they're not, like, the thing about Iris is it's so naked in its emotions, right? It's so, like, it's telling you what it's saying,

and it's inviting you into this very open conversation. And like, none of those guys in the replacements were ever that comfortable being, like, here's how I'm really feeling. You know, it's like, it's winking. It's poetic. It's a bit messy. And like, yeah. I mean, I would have loved for the replacements to be a bigger band. But I don't know if they would be the same band that we love had they been.

You sort of need that smaller band that influences all the bands that get bigger. It's like the pixies. Right, right, right, right. Yeah, I'm trying to picture Paul Westerberg's singing, I just want you to know who I am. Yeah. And it's like, that just does not sound right. No. It's like, oh, he's not serious.

Yeah. Okay. Well, an orchestra plays behind him. That's right. Yeah, the orchestra is another thing. I don't, you know, the whole orchestra would have to be drunk as well. Yeah. I don't know how you really manage that.

That's a lot of beer you got to buy. That's right. That's right. We've both done a very brave thing here in admitting that we've never seen the movie City of Angels. I'm really proud of both of us. I wonder, you used to have a podcast about soundtracks, of course, and I wonder if you've ever listened to the City of Angels soundtrack.

Like, there's, it's like a U-2, if God would send his, it's like all popular songs that have Angel in the title, right? Like Sarah McLaughlin's Angel, U-2's, if God would send his angels. Like, have you ever listened to this whole soundtrack and like, where does it fit for you? in your personal pantheon, you know, of classic 90s movie soundtracks. I've never listened to it, and I think it runs into an unfortunate problem, which is there's a better City of Angels soundtrack, and that's the one for the Crow City of Angels,

which features holes cover of Gold Dust Woman. Gold Dust Woman. That's hilarious. What year was that? Was that the same year? I don't know, because this is what, 98 that this one came out? Yeah, this is 90. I think it's, I think the crow is first.

Yeah. I'm going to guess that the crow is first. That's so funny. So like when you initially, when you say like it's on the city of angels soundtrack, you're like, right, the city of angel soundtrack. That soundtrack's incredible. And you're like, oh, there's another. It's like we have city of angels at home. City of angels at home.

Well, it's the one that has two good songs on. Not to like, I feel like I'm like, I feel like I'm stealing from Yossi saying that. No, it's fine. Yeah, we steal from Yassie all the time. It's the white zombies cover of I'm your boogeyman is on that. the Crow City of Angels. That wins. The Crow wins, obviously. Corn, Seven Mary, Three, Bush, PJ, Harvey. Oh, man, this is so rad. That's so funny. I had never made, I had never actually made that connection, but that's unfortunate for the non-crow City of Angels movie. Yeah. And it's called

like a later era, Atlanta's more set song on it, which is like pretty good. And I remember being on the radio, but I remember that was one where people were like, I like, I like Jagged Little a pill, but some of this other stuff isn't necessarily always for me. And like, that was sort of in that Alanis Morcette era of like, Taylor Hawkins isn't in the band anymore. And I'm kind of checking out a little. That's right. But it's a decent sound, like looking back and I'm like, okay, I can see why this is popular though, because like Iris alone, like this would have sold a million soundtracks because you just want the one song. And it did. Yeah. Yeah, of course, of course. I think you tweeted once that in the next Barbie movie

Ken should sing slide by the Goo Goo Dolls like in the scene where they're all singing a song at their girlfriends or whatever. That's a really beautiful image to me. What makes you think of slide for that particular moment? It just feels so, like when I saw

the movie, I just thought maybe they all were, they pre-existently played slide and they couldn't get the right. So they're like what other song sounds like it would fit in this moment? Because it just feels like slide fits in there. And it's not a I mean, look, Academy Award nominee, Ryan Gosling, leading his Legion of Kensal through, is it Push by Matchbox 20 that they sing?

It is, yes. I like that song, and I like that moment. I mean, you know, you and I are of an age that we're like, and we like this era of music. So, like, putting a 90s song in a movie is a surefire way to get me to watch it. And I just feel like, Slide is the sort of song that a bunch of those guys who would also talk at you about pavement would also be like, okay, but I've got a beautiful something you should hear. That's right.

What you feel is what you are and what you are is beautiful. That's such a lovely. Can't you just see a legion of plastic guys singing that song at their girlfriends around a fire where they're all just sort of like looking for an exit? I absolutely, I absolutely can. That's a very disturbing but also absolutely appropriate image.

I think it would be beautiful. I'm just, I'm still in the grocery store. I can totally picture that so clearly. Like the PA system at a grocery store, right? And you just, you hear, like you say, you hear at the high end, you hear it playing faintly, you know, you're surrounded by people. You know, you're, where do you, where did you tell people the Noki was versus where it actually was? Like, I'm very interested in this scheme in general.

The trick is to find the aisle that's the furthest away from you. Sure. Totally. Yeah. Yeah, it's in the far back corner, you know. Yeah, and be specific. Yeah. I learned to lie at a really young age.

This is, I really, Rob, I've been admitting all of my really, like, real big failings. And what if it was just like? This is, this is very emotional this moment. I don't need therapy anymore. I'm just going to, I will just, like, ask to come on your podcast once a month and I'll just work it all out. I'm trying to think if I ever lied about, like, I didn't know where the marshmallows were, the whole time and they were somewhere weird. I can't remember even now.

Ile 6 halfway up on the left hand side. There you go. I was unhelpful just because I was incompetent, not because I was malicious. I think that's the different. Malicious is probably the mischievous. Yeah. Misch. Whichever one of those.

Impish. Thank you. That's far easier for me to pronounce. I will tell you my dream street screenplay, which is a thing I think I've tweeted I didn't give it away my good idea, which is that essentially it's a movie that is Empire Records, but it's sent in a grocery store in 1995. And I think you've got a surefire million, you've got a billion dollars right there opening a die. There we go. And we'll just put Iris on the soundtrack to that one as well. Yeah. Yeah. It's all, it's 75 different versions of Iris.

This has been fantastic. It's great to talk to you again, Nico. Thank you so much. Oh, thank you so much for how I'm so delighted to be back. I love it. Thanks very much to our guests this week, Nico Stratis. Thanks, as always, to our producers, Jonathan Kerma and Justin Sales. Thanks to Chloe Clark for additional production help. And thanks very much to you for listening. And now, why don't you go ahead and go listen to Iris by the Goo Goo Dolls?

We'll see you next week.