60 Songs That Explain the '90s - “Jenny From the Block”—Jennifer Lopez

Episode Date: May 21, 2025

Rob peruses the limelight love story of Jennifer Lopez and Ben Affleck while celebrating J.Lo’s 2002 smash hit, “Jenny From the Block.” Later, he is joined by writer Julianne Escobedo Shepherd to discuss the music and the drama that came with J.Lo in the 2000s. Host: Rob HarvillaGuest: Julianne Escobedo ShepherdProducers: Bobby Wagner, Jonathan Kermah, and Justin SaylesAdditional Production Support: Olivia Crerie Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's up, everyone? I'm Nora Prynciotti. And I'm Nathan Hubbard. And we're coming in like a wrecking ball to announce a brand new series. That's right. It's every single album, Miley Cyrus. Deep dive with us into the career of one of our most creative and confounding pop stars. We're starting, of course, with the best of Hannah Montana. And ending with her brand new album, Something Beautiful, in June. And don't forget about Miley Cyrus and her dead pets. We certainly will not be doing that. So listen now on Spotify or we're ever, you get your podcasts. We come to this place for magic. We come to this place to laugh, to cry, to care, and to duck when a TikTok poisoned teenager throws a full bucket of popcorn at the screen during the chicken jockey

scene, because we need that. All of us, that indescribable feeling we get when the lights begin to dim and we go somewhere we've never been before, which is a movie theater. in the 21st century where any young person gives a shit. I took eight 14-year-old kids to see the Minecraft movie on a Friday night for my son's birthday, one of the most fascinating and harrowing cultural experiences of my entire life. Every kid in the theater screamed the entire time. Basically, a SWAT team showed up.

All the adults in the room were shitting themselves. We were not just entertained, but somehow. reborn together dazzling images on a huge silver screen and also half chewed flung remnants of sour patch kids stuck to the huge silver screen sound that I can feel specifically constant screaming including from some of the 14 year olds I had personally brought to this theater who raised you okay I raised one of you but what about the rest he is. Somehow heartbreak feels good

in a place like this. But the 12 gin and tonics I drank afterwards just to decompress felt way better. Our heroes. The movie theater ushers are the heroes, obviously. They should all get paid $200 an hour. Our heroes feel like the best

part of us. And stories, not the Minecraft movies, story which I could not follow, but other stories. Stories feel perfect and power. because here they are. You know, it's legal for me to take you down to the station and sweat it out of you under the lights. I sweat a lot better in the dark.

Anyway, once upon a time, we also came to this place to watch the 1990 action thriller Dick Tracy, directed by and starring Warren Beatty in the titular role of hard-boiled 1930s comic strip detective Dick Tracy. Dick Tracy wears a bright yellow raincoat. Dick Tracy boldly battles Tommy gun-wielding gangsters with names like Flat Top and Big Boy Caprice. Dick Tracy's name is Dick Tracy, and Dick Tracy exchanges breathy, innuendo-laden dialogue with a mysterious bombshell nightclub singer Breathless Mahoney, played by Madonna. I sweat a lot better in the dark. Yo, this movie was rated PG. I don't think so.

If Madonna's in your movie, your movie ain't PG. Sorry. If Madonna has come to this place for magic, if Madonna's just sitting in a movie theater by herself, watching a movie she's not even in, the movie Madonna is watching is no longer PG, even if it is PG. Madonna specializes amongst Madonna's many specialties.

Madonna specializes in R-rated deliveries of ostensibly PG-rated dialogue. Testify. You want my testimony? Tell me you want me. If you do that, I'll do anything you say. How bad do you want, big boy? It's up to you.

Tell me you want me. Tell me you want it all. I'm not playing you clips from this movie to be rude. Dick Tracy was pretty good. I saw Dick Tracy in the theater when I was 12, and I know what I'm talking about. the Dick Tracy McDonald's game with the scratch-off cards where you could win a million dollars or more likely free hash browns. The Dick Tracy McDonald's game was better, or at least more

exciting than the Dick Tracy movie. But the movie was fine. And even at 12 years old, I know enough to know that Madonna and Warren Beatty are a real-life romantic couple. They are smooching off-screen as well. And therefore, the romantic heat, the dazzling magic. emanating off the screen is real. I read an interview with Warren Beatty in Rolling Stone, a 1990 Rolling Stone cover story with the cover line, how does Madonna's Dick Tracy keep it up? Question mark, that's a pun. And the interviewer times how long it takes Warren Beatty to answer questions, how many seconds Warren takes to think about it before answering. So Warren Beatty says, quote, Madonna is 21 second pause simultaneously touching and more fun than a barrel of monkeys.

11 seconds. She's funny and she's 21 seconds. Gifted in so many areas and has the kind of energy as a performer that can't help but make you engaged. End quote. And the interviewer goes, sexual energy. And Warren Beatty says, quote, 47 second pause. She has it all. End quote. Sizzling. A super famous movie star and a super famous pop star who wants to be a movie star, smooching together on screen and off. It's true love.

It's everlasting. What could go wrong? One thing that could go wrong is that even in the early 90s, when you're a super famous movie star, smooching a super famous pop star who wants to be a movie star, there is no off screen anymore. Now it's 1991, and Warren Beatty and Madonna are in another big movie together. This time it's a documentary called Madonna, colon, Truth, or Dare.

Directed by Alec Cushishian, one of the great, lurid, baffling, cringe-worthy, and utterly necessary pop star documentaries of its time or any other time, Madonna with the glass bottle, etc. So in the movie, Madonna is on a world tour, right? and she's losing her voice, so she goes to the doctor. And she brings along both her documentary camera crew and her boyfriend, famous movie star Warren Beatty, and no smooching transpires. Instead, Warren Beatty sits in a corner,

wearing sunglasses indoors and smirking and complaining about how they're putting this scene with the doctor in the movie. This is crazy. Nobody talks about this on film? The insanity of doing this fall on a documentary. Well, this is a serious matter, your throat, yes? Why should I stop here? You can just tell from the tone of Warren Beatty's voice that he's wearing sunglasses indoors.

Warren is complaining here, not unreasonably, that Madonna, via this bonkers groundbreaking 1991 documentary, Madonna is doing her part to eradicate the very notion of privacy. She is eradicating her own privacy, but also, on a long enough timeline, she's going to eradicate everybody's privacy, starting with her grumpy boyfriends. But does anyone say it? Who's anyone? Well, anyone that comes into this insane atmosphere, you realize they all feel it when they come into this atmosphere. When they come into your dressing room, when they come wherever you are, they feel.

feel crazy. Now, do they talk about it? No, they accept it. Now, this clip has come up before on this podcast, way back when, when we discussed Madonna in detail, and we determined, I determined, we determined that this clip does not so much invent reality television as it invents the concept of tiresome dudes performatively hating reality television. Also, it feels relevant to say that Warren Beatty became a super famous movie star in the 60s, arguably the early 60s. So what we got here is Madonna, the 80s pop star, who wants to be a movie star, teaching Warren Beatty, the 60s movie star, that the very definition of stardom has changed. The scope has changed.

The scope of superstardom has widened enough to encompass the whole world and everything that you, the superstar, will ever do in it. the spotlight is always on, the camera is usually on. We come to this place for magic, but the magic makers are never off duty. So Madonna's doctor asks if she wants to talk off camera, and Warren Beatty just laughs at him, or really at her. Do you want to talk at all off camera? You have nothing to say.

She doesn't want to live off camera. I think that's what it is. There's nothing to say off camera. Why would you say something if it's off camera? And tomorrow you're going to be... What point is there existing? And I regret to inform you that true love is not, in fact, everlasting. In the case of these two particular lovebirds, Madonna and Warren Beatty are no longer smooching.

IRL. But see, like so much Madonna stuff, with this truth or dare documentary, Madonna was so ahead of her time, it hardly registers now how insanely ahead. ahead of her time she was exactly. By the 2010s, right? Every pop stars got at least one super intimate, behind the scenes, warts and all, painfully vulnerable documentary. Katie, Taylor, Gaga, Billy, Beyonce, Selena, Ariana, Bieber, et cetera.

And that intimacy, that vulnerability, that reality is painstakingly calculated and stylized and, you know, faked. But as a pop star now, you have to at least perform the idea that you've renounced your right to privacy and you're never off camera now. And more so than even Madonna, I think we all know who to blame for that. Ozzy, there you go. Bubbles. Oh, come on, Sharon. I'm fucking not Ozzy.

I'm the prince of fucking darkness. Evil, evil. What's fucking evil? I gotta blow the fucking bubbles. Let's blame rock god Ozzy Osbourne and his wife, Sharon Osbourne, who star in the titular role in the early 2000s MTV reality series, The Osbournes. In this scene, Ozzy Osbourne, heavy metal titan and the Prince of Fucking Darkness,

is displeased by the introduction of bubbles into his stage show. So this TV show The Osbournes, which premiered in 2002, This show is deceptively and absurdly ahead of its time as well, in that it demystified Ozzy Osbourne, the ant snorting, bat-biting, alamo desecrating prince of fucking darkness himself. The second episode of the Osbournes is mostly devoted to watching one of the coolest and wildest rock stars of all time

yelling at his dogs for treating his house like he treated the alamo. fucking carpet. That bastard fucking dog, man. I'm going to throw you in the fucking pool. Wait, get the fuck out of my head if you're fucking. Get the fuck out. Ozzy Osbourne peed on the Alamo once, allegedly, just to clarify that. I didn't watch this show at the time because I was an intellectual.

But did MTV let him swear the whole time, or did they bleep all that out? I hope they bleeped him. Bleeping is way funnier. The first season of the Osbournes got bigger ratings than any show in MTV's then 20-plus year history. So they did three more seasons. And this show is great for Ozzy. I don't think very many of Ozzie's hardcore fans found this show intrusive or embarrassing or legacy

threatening. Ozzy's Ozzy's double helix of silliness and badassness is indestructible. But with Ozzie's help, we've set the tone, we've set the standard here in the early 2000s for how rock stars, pop stars, movies. stars, et cetera, ought to behave. We demand 24-hour access or the illusion thereof. To quote a famous rock and roll song, here we are now. Entertain us. To quote another famous rock and roll song, you can check out any time you like, but you can never leave. Which brings us to two other crazy, smooching kids. A different movie star and a different movie star who also wants to be a pop star.

Of course I am. You don't act like it? What do you want me to do, scream? I didn't help much anyway. No, I'm just going to sit here, take it easy, and wait for you to screw up. Hold on. Wrong movie. I meant her, but not him. Yeah, see, this is out of sight, the Steven Soderberg Romantic Crime Thriller from 1998, starring George Clooney as the handsome bank robber. He's a big boy Caprice, I guess.

and Jennifer Lopez as the heroic U.S. Marshal pursuing him. She's Dick Tracy, I guess. George and J.Lo are currently locked in the trunk of a moving getaway car together. I brought up this movie on purpose, actually. I brought up this movie because it's the greatest movie of all time. This is not going to end well. These things never do. Turns out I get shot like a dog.

It's going to be in the street, none of a goddamn fence. You must really see yourself with some kind of Clyde barrel. I mean to Bonnie and Clyde. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. She means the 1967 film Bonnie and Clyde starring Warren Beatty in the half titular role of Clyde Barrow. Out of sight. Greatest movie of all time.

Do I believe that? Who knows? Do I enjoy saying it? Absolutely. Phenomenal movie. Phenomenal on-screen chemistry between George Clooney and J-Lo. I'm going to rewatch out of sight tonight. But these two weren't smooching.

IRL. No, unfortunately, I mean these two crazy smooching kids. Where you going? It's turkey time. Huh? Okay. This film is called G. Lee? It is a darkish romantic comedy. Came out in 2003 and stars Jennifer Lopez and her then-boyfriend, Ben Affleck.

G-Lie is a notorious box office bomb. Gile is a critical punching bag. Gile is perhaps a celebrity relationship ruiner. But you know what? The critics were wrong. I dig Gile. Gile is super underrated, dude. It's a hidden comedic gem.

It is a fearless and astute battle of the sexes that interrogates our... I'm just kidding. This movie is trash. Roger Ebert described Gile as, quote, too disorganized for me to recommend it, end quote. And he was one of the nice ones. If you don't know the context for turkey time, stay out of it. Don't get involved.

Hey, listen, you there, listen to me. Do not watch Gile or rewatch Gile, even as like a bit or for content. Don't do it. Let's not get into it. I'm not playing you any more clips from Gile because that would be rude. But yeah, here they are. Famous actor Ben Affleck and famous actor who is now a pop star, Jennifer Lopez, Ben and Jennifer, aka

Benifer, aka the hottest celebrity couple on the planet. They are smooching on and off screen. They are ubiquitous. They are intoxicating. They are in love. And their love has created what Warren Beatty might call an insane atmosphere. A suffocating media circus that never leaves town. In 2002, Jennifer Lopez releases an entire album called This Is Me Then about her abiding love for Ben Affleck. There's a song called Dear Ben and Everything. After a few false starts, Jennifer Lopez and Ben Affleck are set to be married

in September 2003. But three days before the wedding, Jennifer Lopez and Ben Affleck call it off. Benefer, in fact, releases a joint media statement decrying the media, quote, due to the excessive media attention surrounding our wedding, we have decided to postpone the date. When we found ourselves seriously contemplating hiring three separate decoy brides at three different locations, we realized that something was awry, end quote. Let me think about that for a second. The 2003-Benifer wedding is, in fact, not postponed, but canceled. Jennifer Lopez and Ben Affleck split up.

They are both heartbroken. Undoubtedly, the 2003 tabloid media ecosystem is collectively heartbroken as well. Ben and Jen soldier on with their respective blockbuster careers spanning from the Oscars to the Super Bowl halftime show. They get married to different people and then eventually divorce those different people. Hyjinks ensue. Unpleasant trees ensue. The better part of 20 years passes. And then.

And then they get back together. Ben and Jennifer recommence smooching IRL. They convened Benifer 2.0. They rekindle their romance and get married for real on August 20th, 2020. And in 2024, Jennifer Lopez releases a new album, a sequel album, in fact, called This Is Me Now, in which she sings about both therapeutic type self-love. That's pretty new. and her abiding love for Ben Affleck.

That's not new at all. There's a song called Dear Ben Part 2 and Everything. This album is accompanied, also in 2024, by a genuinely bonkers, hour long, don't call it a music video, avant-garde romantic drama musical situation, called This Is Me Now a Love Story. And that is soon accompanied

by an only marginally less bonkers 2020. feature-length documentary called the greatest love story never told, which tells the story of J-Lo making that bonkers musical while also telling the story of Ben Affleck's immense

discomfort with all of this. When Shen and I broke up before, the catalyst for that, was this massive amount of scrutiny around our private life. I don't like my tone. I fear that my tone. I fear that my

tone has gotten excessively glib and disrespectful. Gile is not a very good movie, but I fear that I overdid it. And despite how it may appear, I actually try very hard, generally, not to overdo it. A simpler and perhaps more humane reading of the

Benefer and Benefer Part 2 saga is that due to the suffocating tabloid media circus, due to the insane atmosphere their love created, it became difficult, if not impossible, for normal people to regard Ben Affleck and Jennifer Lopez as normal people, regular people, regular people in love,

who struggled enormously with jerk-offs like me glibly manufacturing their love into content. Ben Affleck knows what I'm talking about. I had a very firm sense of boundaries initially around like depressed. While Jen, I don't think objected to it in the way I did, I very much did object to it. And Ben is speaking here about the Glib Media Jerkoffs in 2003, but one of the more compelling subplots of the evolution from Benefer in 2003 to Benefer Part 2 in 2024 is how the Glib Media Jerkoff ecosystem has changed in the past 20 years, logistically and technologically and morally, and how the Glib Media Jerkoff ecosystem has not much changed at all.

Getting back together, I said, listen, one of the things I don't want is a relationship on social media. Then I sort of realized it's not a fair thing to ask. And listen, I enjoy a good paparazzi photo of Ben Affleck looking exhausted and contemplative whilst smoking, or whilst staring out at the sea with his cool dragon tattoo, or whilst balancing a comically large array of Dunkin' Donuts, Nuts purchases. In this documentary, Jennifer quotes Ben as saying, I've become the symbol of the beleaguered man.

And that's funny, objectively, I think. But just because you're a rad meme doesn't mean you're not a normal human person. It's sort of like, you know, you're going to marry a boat captain. And you go, I don't like the water, you know. We're just two people with kind of different approaches, trying to learn to come. compromise. It won't end well. These things never do. Benefort Part 2 will soon collapse under its own weight as well. Jennifer Lopez and Ben Affleck will divorce in January 2025, and that will be the end of that. And so now, with the grim benefit of very recent hindsight, it's a trip,

it's a complicated emotional experience, watching this year-old bonkers J-Lo movie about their rekindled love affair and then watching the year old bonkers J-Lo documentary about the making of that bonkers J-Lo movie. But even if the love has died again for good this time, the art endures and the music especially endures. And so, with our hearts open and hopefully my personal glibness restrained, let's go back to 2002, back when we first learned that Jennifer Lopez was a boat captain. And back when Ben and Jennifer both at least appeared to be a little more comfortable in the water. My name is Rob Harvilla. This is the 19th episode of 60 songs that explained the 90s, Cole in the

2000s. And this week we are discussing Jenny from the Block by Jennifer Lopez. From her 2002 album, This Is Me Then. That's This Is Me dot dot then. That's this is me dot then. Okay, I thought about it. You want to know the radest possible job you could have in 2003? Decoy bride for the Benefer 1.0 wedding. Holy shit. They seriously contemplated deploying three separate decoy brides at three different locations. Tell me everything about this plan immediately.

I need details. I need blueprints. I need contrast. tracks. I need a job description. I need to know what the decoy bride J-Lo would have done exactly. Do you just stand there with your back to the cameras? Or do you get to do stunts? Do you get to put on a wedding dress and sprint zigzag across a minefield to avoid gunfire from all the news helicopters? Do you get to smooch a decoy Ben Affleck? Can you imagine how rad it would feel to add the words decoy bride for the

Benefer wedding to your resume? Unbelievable. This is glib. Shit. I'm still being glib. I got to calm down. Give me a second. All right. That's better. I feel better. I feel calmer and more respectful now. How's about you and I

listen to some Paula Abdul. It is 1988, and the pop diva landscape is robust. Who is We got, we got Madonna, of course, running the joint. We got Whitney Houston. We got Janet Jackson. We got Taylor Dane.

Ooh. We got Tiffany and Debbie Gibson. We got George Michael, of course. He counts. And we got Paula Abdul. San Bernardino, California native Paula Abdul. Tremendous dancer and choreographer turned pop star, Paula Abdul. An esteemed alumnus of the Laker Girls.

An esteemed music video choreographer for, notably, Janet Jackson. In 1988, Paula Abdul releases her debut album called Forever Your Girl, which spawns an incredible four number one singles on the Billboard Hot 100, starting with straight up and then continuing with this preposterously charming jam. Even if he promised me the world, just remember I'm forever your girl. Listening to pop radio in the late 80s and early 90s is just a delightful, a transcendent, a euphoric experience. Thanks in no small part to Paula Abdul. You may observe that Paula Abdul does not have a booming, volcanic, octave-scaling, gospel-inflicted powerhouse-type voice. No, not really. It is a high, thin, lith, nasal voice.

Paula Abdul's and she is carefully presented in the blockbuster videos for all these blockbuster number one songs as a double thread at minimum as a good to great singer and a great to excellent dancer phenomenal on-screen chemistry between Paula Abdul and a rapping smoking dancing suspenders wearing cartoon feline lethario named MC Scatcat. It ain't fiction, just a natural fact. That song, of course, is opposites attract. The Paula Abdul No.1 hit with the most famous video. Paula Abdul is a top-tier pop star now, with all the tabloid exposure that entails.

Tabloid exposure that may or may not have adversely affected her 1992 marriage to movie star Emilio Estevez, whose best movie is, you guessed it, men at work. Thank you for agreeing with me. Paul and Emilio get divorced in 1994. Celebrity marriage is hard. Celebrity marriage is nigh impossible. But hold on. Let us not disrespect the fourth number one single

off the first Paul Abdul record, which is the one with the video that scandalized my mother. He's a lover boy at play. He don't play by rules. I love all these songs. I was just sitting there watching this video and my mom walks in the room and gets mad at me. I once got in trouble for simply being

in the same room as a TV showing this video. You could get arrested in certain states just for watching the video for cold-hearted. It is quite lascivious choreography-wise, quite a bit of writhing. This video was directed by David Fincher. Listen, Paula Abdul does not exactly have like an or the Franklin Calibur voice. All right. But Paula Abdul right off the rip has proven herself to be a robust

pop diva extraordinaire. She is a great to excellent dancer and a good to great singer at minimum. Would you mind, though, if we indulged a dissenting opinion? You better brace yourself.

Yeah. Paul Abduly is shit. Now, one thing, Paula Abdul ain't shit. Mommy, that girl is singing. off key on the record. Oh dear. Here we have Whitney Houston. All time, all universe, robust pop diva Whitney Houston.

Just talking wild shit about Paula Abdul on camera in super candid archival footage from the 2018 documentary Whitney. This scene is in the trailer. Oof, this is Whitney Houston talking wild shit to her mother. other revered gospel singer Sissy Houston. That's Sissy Houston immediately going Nippy. Why'd you say that? When Whitney starts talking wild shit, Nippy is Whitney Houston's childhood nickname.

Sissy Houston continues to at least attempt to defend Paula Abdul, at least from a commercial standpoint. Because she got an image that we all know ain't really true. Now, who knows what Whitney Houston means here when she asserts that Paula Abdul's image ain't really true? But I ought to mention that in 1991, Paula Abdul was sued by one of her three credited backup singers on the Forever Your Girl album. A singer named Yvette Marine alleged that on at least two songs, including opposites attract, the lead vocal track is a studio-tweaked combination, a composite of Paula's voice and Yvette's voice.

Per the Los Angeles Times, Yvette sued Paula Abdul's label, Virgin Records, alleging, quote, false and deceptive packaging, and therefore seeking, quote, proper credit and compensation for her vocal contributions, end quote. Now, Paula Abdul's publicist called that lawsuit ludicrous. That's a great legal word. ludicrous. And when that case went to trial, this case went to trial with a jury. At the trial, a jury deliberated for just three hours and then decided in Paula Abdul's favor, dismissing the

charges, and thereby asserting that Paula Abdul is the only lead vocalist on her own record. Once again, per the Los Angeles Times, evidently Paula wept with joy when the verdict was announced. robust pop divas got to defend themselves in the court of public opinion if not also in actual court and as Whitney Houston proves robust pop divas don't always get along robust pop divas got to defend themselves against each other would you care for another example your new album is about divas I want to just sort of throw out a few names of divas

and sort of get your one word reaction instead of get your impression of various singers so you better brace yourself this is christopher john farley of the wall street journal talking to oritha franklin in 2014 and subjecting aretha franklin to a diva opinion lightning round or really this is subjecting other divas to aritha franklin's opinion aritha calls adele a young singer good singer Aretha calls Alicia Keys a young performer, good writer, producer. The word young is a deadly weapon in the hands of Aretha Franklin. The guy says Whitney Houston and Aretha ever so slightly visibly softens and she says, quote,

Whitney was a talent, definitely a talent. She had a gift and Sissy's baby, end quote. Then the guy says Nikki Minaj and Aretha passes, which is delightful. but none of that is why this clip is famous. This is why this clip is famous. Taylor Swift. Okay, great gowns, beautiful gowns. Oh my God, just stupendous.

I always forget how important the okay is there, just the annihilating deadpan glee of that okay. But yes, great gowns, beautiful gowns, is the most devastating four-word diva versus diva takedown of our young century. There is only one other contender. And what is with J-Lo? That I know she not.

Oops. I don't know her. If, like me, you know I don't know her, primarily as a gif, a gif maybe with a caption, Mariah Carey shaking her head and smiling viciously and silently mouthing the words, I don't know her, then perhaps you like me were unaware that this clip is primarily in German? It's an interview from a German tabloid TV show called Taff.

Sidebar, Bobby Finger and Lindsay Weber of the Fantastic Podcast, Who Weekly, they contributed to a big Mariah package in Billboard, and they report that this clip was first uploaded a YouTube, in 2008 and has been viral ever since. But this footage probably first aired in 2003, based on Mariah's hairstyle and the Beyonce song playing in the background, etc. You can trust them.

Sidebar number two. Mariah Carey hates slash doesn't know Jennifer Lopez for a bunch of reasons, presumably, but mostly it's because Mariah's ex-husband, Big Shot record executive Tommy Motola. He's the guy who signed J-Lo and then positioned J-Lo in a suspiciously Mariah Carey-esque manner. And also there's a sample, a yellow magic orchestra sample that Mariah used for glitter,

but then that same sample suspiciously turned up on a J-Lo record, and Mariah was ultra-pissed. This shit is important, but it requires a great deal of exposition. We'll talk about the yellow magic orchestra some other time. The point is, I don't know her. The point is also, oops. In German is apparently oops, but no, really. The point is, I don't know her. Devastating.

I don't know her as a first ballot meme Hall of Famer. What Whitney Houston is to Paula Abdul and what Aretha Franklin is to Taylor Swift, that's what Mariah Carey is to Jennifer Lopez. How do analogies work in notation? It's Whitney

Houston, Colin Paula Abdul, colon, areatha Franklin, Colin Taylor Swift, colon, colon, corin, colin, Maria Carey, colon Jennifer Lopez. If that's wrong, at least I got to say, say colon seven times in 10 seconds. Jennifer Lynn Lopez was born in New York City, specifically the Bronx on July 24th, 1969. She's a Leo. That may not matter to you, but my wife is also a Leo,

and I'm here to tell you it matters to Leo's. Jennifer Lopez's parents were born in Puerto Rico. Jennifer Lopez is a middle child. In the Bonkers 2024 documentary about the making of her bonkers 2024, not a music video movie. Jennifer Lopez says that her mother was a life of the party narcissist and her father worked long hours and slept all day and wasn't around much. Ben Affleck jumps in at this point and says, quote, Jen felt emotionally neglected as a child. And he also says, quote, I don't think there's enough followers or movies or records or any of that stuff to still that part of you that still feels a longing and a pain. Ultimately, that's the work that you've got to do on your own.

End quote. To illustrate this point about doing the work on your own, in the Blonkers, not a music video, J-Lo at one point meets a cut and bruised and neglected eight-year-old version of herself. And the eight-year-old version of J-Lo says, to adult J-Lo, she says, quote, I didn't get enough love from you. An adult J-Lo apologizes and says, I love you. An eight-year-old J-Lo says, say it again.

An adult J-Lo says it again, and then they dance together. This is on Amazon Prime. This is the second wildest piece of content available on Amazon Prime after Reacher. By high school, Jennifer is already both a track star and an accomplished dancer. After high school, she's in traveling musicals. She's a backup dancer for the likes of New Kids on the Block and Janet Jackson. She's dancing in music videos for the likes of EPMD. and Dougie Fresh. And starting in 1991 with season three, she appears on the tremendously popular

Fox sketch comedy show In Living Color as part of the Fly Girls, the show's in-house dance troupe. By the mid-90s, Jennifer is doing movies. Shout out the 1995 action comedy money train, also starring Wesley Snipes and Woody Harrelson. And in 1997, Jennifer Lopez becomes a legit big deal movie star, thanks to her titular role in the hit musical biopic Selena, in which Jennifer portrays Mexican-American icon, an all-time, all-universe, robust pop diva Selena Kintanilla. Now, to be clear, Jennifer Lopez does not sing in this movie. Instead, Jennifer lip sinks, Comola Floor, and so forth over Selena's old vocals. But Jennifer Lopez is legitimately fantastic. in this role. She skillfully navigates both the tragic and comedic elements of this role.

She deftly plays both Selena the pop star and Selena the human being. This also came up before in the Selena episode, but I am 300% sincere when I say that the best moment in the Selena movie is J. Lowe's delivery of the line, I Love Pizza. What? Are you going to get that whole thing? Yes. Watch me. I can eat a whole medium pizza by myself.

I love pizza. That's a movie star, dude. In 1997, Jennifer also stars in the film's U-turn and even better Anaconda. That's a movie star, dude. In 1998, Jennifer stars opposite George Clooney in Out of Sight, a.k.a. the greatest movie of all time. She's a movie star, dude. She's a movie star who also wants to be a pop star.

And if J-Lo wants to do something or be something, she's going to do it and be it. And so, in 1999, J-Lo becomes a pop star. Get a load of the sauce she puts on the word trust. Fantastic word delivery of the word trust by Jennifer Lopez, pop star. This song is called If You Had My Love. It is the lead single and opening track on Jennifer Lopez's debut album, which is released in 1999 and is called On the Six. That's a New York City subway line, a local.

The On the Six record sells three million copies. If You Had My Love is the first of Jennifer Lopez's four number one singles on the Billboard Hot 100 over the course of her ongoing 20 plus year musical career. I dig the way she sings the words, that's what you said. now there's a lot of vocals a lot of vocal tracks coming at you here a lot of stacked up J.Lo's but her singular charisma abounds

I think we got a ton of big shot producers working on this on the six record like 15 plus producers ranging from Rodney Jirkins to poke and tone to Jalo's boyfriend at the time. Puff Daddy to quote Aretha Franklin pass what is immediately striking

about Jennifer Lopez pop star is her stylistic range. J-Lo is comfortable navigating the fluid and lively and increasingly slick combination of pop and R&B and hip-hop dominating the mainstream landscape by 1999. She is also, of course, perfectly comfortable as a leading light in the so-called Latin explosion on late 90s American pop radio, driven by the sudden gigantic global popularity of J-Lo and Ricky Martin and Shakira. and Mark Anthony and rebranded Smooth Era Carlos Santana.

J-Lo can cover an awful lot of ground musically and otherwise, and she can do it with a legit movie star's infectious charisma. What I'm telling you is that if she tells you to get loud, you're going to get loud. Yeah, so this song's called Let's Get Loud. It was co-written by robust pop diva Gloria Estefan, who spent the 80s charitimately ensuring

even rhythmically challenged white people such as myself, that the rhythm was going to get even us. Eventually, now there's a lot of vocals, a lot of vocal tracks, a few different physical voices coming at you on Let's Get Loud. We got longtime Gloria Estefan backup singer Donna Allen and Big Shot 70's soul singer Betty Wright singing backup here on Let's Get Loud,

quite loudly. But Jennifer Lopez, in this endeavor and all, other endeavors, is giving 110% 110% of the time. And yeah, you may observe that Jennifer Lopez does not have a booming, volcanic, octave-scaling, gospel-inflected powerhouse type voice. No, not really.

And in 1999, here at the dawn of a new century, this record sounded like a movie star trying to be a pop star. In the same way that in movies, Madonna radiates the palpable aura of a pop star trying to be a movie star. It just hits you different when you know this is a person trying to be good at a second thing. Right? This record on the 6th, this is a brand expansion. This is an incursion.

This is very much J-Lo's second thing. But she's doing this. And we're going to listen to her do this. And that includes some Shadei-adjacent slow jams. That song's called If You Only New. And I dig it, but I did say Chadeh adjacent. Nobody's coming for Aretha's crown or Whitney's crown or Chade's crown. But Jennifer Lopez has quickly emerged as an excellent to tremendous actress,

a great to excellent dancer, and a good to great singer at minimum. Can we all agree on that? No, of course not. I can hear Mariah Carey viciously shaking her head even as I say that. But in my house, ain't nobody turning down waiting for. tonight when it comes on the radio. I've dreamed of this love for so long. That's the Jennifer Lopez version of waiting for tonight.

This is a cover. I didn't know that. A post-Spice Girls American Dance Pop Girl Group called Third Party first released this song in 1997. I don't know about that name third party. So like what? Ross Perot. My long-suffering editor, Justin Sales, is like,

you could probably sharpen that Ross Perrault. joke, Rob. And my honest answer is, I doubted. I wouldn't say that Jennifer Lopez's cover of waiting for tonight is transformational or nothing. That's not the right word, but you get what I'm saying. This is a chorus so huge that apparently we all just wanted someone more famous to sing it. Whether J.Lo sings it better is arguable. But so can we agree that going forward in perpetuity, Jennifer Lopez is going to be a lot of fun to argue about. Okay, good. Thanks for agreeing with me because now it's really time to start arguing.

Specifically, if you want, we can argue about how much of this is actually Jennifer Lopez's voice. This song is called Play. It appears on Jennifer's second album released in 2001 and called J-Lo. Great song, Play. A bubbly, flirty, insinuating little electrical. thing, written by four people, including young aspiring robust pop diva Christina Millian, who wanted to release her own version of the song on her own debut 2002 album, but label machinations ensued, and J-Lo got it. And so here we have a hit J-Lo song

with Christina Millian's vocals blended into the chorus. And this is not a big deal at all, as pop music goes. And yet it's a big enough deal that people are still talking about it, 20 years later, in 2003, in a New York Post-page-6 story with the headline, Christina Millian shuts down Jennifer Lopez beef speculation

over song play. Christina calls J.Lo an icon, and she says, quote, it's funny when people talk about this being kind of a thing about me singing on the song with Jennifer. I mean, I have background singers on some of my songs.

It's no different than Michael Jackson having background singers on songs or Britney Spears. This is what music is made of. You want a blend of voices. It makes songs better to me. End quote. I think it's fair to say that a blend of voices makes this song better as well. So JLo's second album called JLo comes out in January 2001 and includes a song called I'm Real.

It's fine. That song is fine. Jennifer Lopez sings it by herself basically. fine. The original I'm Real, that's the song with the Yellow Magic Orchestra sample that pissed off Mariah Carey, but let's not get mired in the details, right? Yellow Magic Orchestra are from Japan, but I don't want to talk about them right now. Honest. I mean it. But so in July 2001, the J-Lo album is re-released with a new improved version of I'm Real, the murder remix of I'm Real, a duet featuring the one, the only J-Rul.

And the I'm Real Murder Remix hits number one and defines an era of pop radio and kicks metric tons of ass. Genuinely delightful song, the I'm Real remix. The Rick James sample, right? The cuddly crunchiness of Jarl rule's voice and the brash, malefluousness of Jennifer Lopez's voice. And also maybe a little bit of Ashanti's voice as well. Ashanti, the robust early 2000s pop diva who co-wrote, the I'm Real remix. Ashanti

who recorded that remix's demo with Jarlal. Ashanti, who has been doing genial interviews for the past 20 years, where she admits that, okay, yeah, she's pretty bummed. She didn't get to do this song herself. Ashani who nonetheless provides backup

vocals for the J-Lo version. Perhaps you get an Ashanti vibe off the word insecurity. And when I'm feeling sexy, who's And bizarrely My only problem is Their insecurity

And bizarrely, this exact situation happens twice. A perfectly decent song On this J-Lo record gets a Bouncier and popier and objectively superior murder remix featuring Jha Rul and co-written by Ashanti And Ashanti wants to record it herself

But instead settles for singing backups on the famous J-Lo version. All of that also happens on another song called Ain't It Funny, the remix with a Craig Mac sample, right? And all these backup vocals, these assists from fellow robust pop divas, unfortunately for J-Lo,

this is part of the J-Lo narrative. Mariah Carey, in a 2001 interview with Talk Magazine, she talks shit about J-Lo, and she also talks about that yellow magic orchestra sample that pissed her off, a sample of the yellow magic, orchestra song Firecracker from their groundbreaking 1978 self-titled debut album you know firecracker the song that goes do do do do do do but i don't have time for this i don't and maria carry in the

midst of this jalo shit talking maria says quote if i had the luxury of not actually having to sing my own songs i do that too end quote yikes but meanwhile i'm still stuck on the i'm real remix and specifically i'm stuck on the word insecurity. It should be noted that Jennifer Lopez can talk shit as well. There's a genuinely bananas Jennifer Lopez interview from 1998, an interview with movie line where J-Lo talks just wild shit about a whole bunch of people. J-Lo on Salma Hayek, quote, we're in two different realms. She's a sexy bombshell, and those are the kinds of.

roles she does. I do all kinds of different things. It makes me laugh when she says she got offered Selena, which was an outright lie. If that's what she does to get herself publicity, then that's her thing. End quote. J-Lo on Cameron Diaz, quote, a lucky model who's been given a lot of opportunities I just wish she would have done more with. She's beautiful and has a great presence, though. And in my best friend's wedding, I thought, when directed, she can be good. End quote. J-Lo on Gwyneth Paltrow. Quote, tell me what she's been in.

I swear to God, I don't remember anything she was in. Some people get hot by association. I heard more about her and Brad Pitt than I ever heard about her work. End quote. I don't know her. J-Lo on Winona Ryder. Quote, I was never a big fan of her. end quote. J-Lo on Madonna.

Quote, do I think she's a great performer? Yeah. Do I think she's a great actress? No. Acting is what I do. So I'm harder on people when they say, oh, I can do that. I can act. I'm like, hey, don't spit on my craft, end quote. Now, three years later, in 2001, J-Lo would disavow this article.

She told Vanity Fair, quote, I was so misquoted and so taken out of context, and it's a sore subject for me, end quote. But I think you know what this means. It means that Whitney Houston, colon, Paul Abdul, colon, corin, corin, Aretha Franklin, colon Taylor Swift, colon, colon, Moriah Carey, colon Jennifer Lopez, colon, colon, Jennifer Lopez, colon, colonel hiack, Cameron Diaz, Gwyneth Paltrow, Winona Ryder, and Madonna. But see, no, it's still.

This word insecurity in the blockbuster remix of a song called I'm Reuters. the very existence of a blockbuster Jennifer Lopez song called I'm Real. It is pervasive. This idea that Jennifer Lopez is forever trying to prove to you. Yes, you, personally, she's trying to prove to you that she is both a multi-hyphenate generational superstar and a normal, real human person. What defines J-Lo's 30-plus year career is the effort, the tremendous, the Herculean effort to assert both her greatness and her normalness. And I suspect that at this level, proving that you're normal is much harder than proving that you're great. In 2024, when that bonker is not a music video movie comes out, that movie's full title is This Is Me. Dot, dot, dot,

now, colon a love story. The great critic and friend of the show, Wesley Morris, wrote about it for the New York Times. And Wesley says, quote, Lopez wants, needs, hungers, craves, desires, seeks, pines, wishes, dreams, hopes, believes, yearns, aches, hustles. You can see all of that in the hard violence of her dancing. Nothing comes easy. Nothing flows. It's a lot of bursts and breaks. Then he says, for 30 years she's been at this.

Mere entertainment might not be enough. Lopez has always seemed out to prove, rarely, to savor, relish, or bask. On the 23-year-old remix of her hit song, I'm Real, Lopez coosed that second word, transforming it from a declaration of fact to a matter of existential doubt, end quote. That's why Wesley's the best.

But see, this is the thing about J-Lo in perpetuity. She has always seemed genuinely, gravely concerned that you might be fooled by the rocks that she's got. From a living color to movie scripts to all the six to jayload of this headline clips. I stay grounded as the amounts rolling. I'm real, I thought. I stay grounded as the amounts roll in is a remarkable line for a pop song. The internal rhyme of I stay grounded as the amounts roll in.

And also the internal conflict of I stay grounded as the amounts roll in. How grounded are you really if you feel competitive? to sing about how grounded you are. You ever hear the phrase cool don't advertise? I've heard this phrase all my life and I know what it means and yet all my life cool has been advertised to me relentlessly. Sincere question. Do we want our pop stars to be grounded? Do we want our pop stars to be real? Do we want stars to be like us? What does real even mean in this context? And most importantly, is J-Lo real even on Oprah? Yes. J-Lo is real even on Oprah. Jenny from the block appears on Jennifer Lopez's third album,

released in 2002 and officially titled This Is Me. Dot, dot, dot, dot then. On the album version, this song guest stars jada kiss and styles p of god tier yonkers rap trio the locks but all due respect we'll talk about the locks and the yellow magic orchestra some other time because the video there is jenny from the block the song and then there is jenny from the block the video the video's the one with the yachts on earth like this rockin this business i've grown up so much i'm in control and loving it rumors got me laughing kids In the Jenny from the Block video, Jennifer Lopez sings, I'm down to earth like this, shortly after paparazzi style surveillance footage of Jennifer Lopez and her movie star boyfriend Ben Affleck,

cavorting lasciviously on a yacht. And also there's footage of Ben Affleck pumping gas shortly before Ben and Jennifer sit in their convertible looking at paparazzi photos of themselves in a magazine. I don't like my tone again, but it is legitimately fascinating to me, the fundamental and deliberate dissonance between the message of Jenny from the block, the song, and Jenny from the block the video,

but really also the song, I have always remembered the sauce, the marvelously dissonant sauce. Jalo puts on the words, to me it's like breathing. But I'd forgotten about, I love my life and my public. I love my life.

in my public, put God first and can't forget to stay real. To me, it's like breathing. It's a mesmerizingly odd way to convey a mesmerizingly odd idea in a mesmerizingly odd song called Jenny from the block in which Jenny uses the phrase, my public. In 2024, talking to variety, talking to reporter and friend of the show Stephen Roderick, Jennifer Lopez says, quote, Jenny from the block should have been me back in the Bronx kind of walking around the neighborhood. That's what the video should have been. End quote. She says that Ben Affleck on a yacht, that concept was the director's idea. The Jenny from the

black video was directed by Francis Lawrence. He went on to direct a bunch of Hunger Games movies. Jennifer, talking about both her and Ben, she says, quote, we were so ourselves. And we never thought that people would take offense or be angry at us for kind of living out loud and making a cool video. We were so naive. End quote. But she also says, I don't regret it. Even though it wound up turning out ugly for us in the media, it was very defining for me and my musical trajectory. Some very beautiful, iconic images came out of that video.

It's the one thing. No matter where I go, people still go, hey, there's Jenny from the book. block end quote can i tell you something jenny from the block is a good song great sample of the nineteen seventy five disco tune hijack by enoch light and the light brigade that's the flute right hijack is the song that goes do do do do do do do do do you love the beat nuts sampled hijack a couple years earlier in 1999 but jenny from the block was a much bigger hit this is me responding to an edit. My long-suffering editor, Justin Sales, got mad that I didn't mention the beat nuts. I'm a people-pleaser. It's my nature. I'm letting you into the editing process here.

Anyway, can I tell you something? Jenny from the block is not the best song on the This Is Me Then album, which is also my favorite J-Lo album. This song is called The One. And backup singers aside, I just really dig the way J-Lo sings the words, your girl. She sings the words, your girl. the way she sings the words, I'm real. And she means it here, too. This record, This Is Me,

then, is more of a throwback 70s soul deal. It came out in 2002, but it doesn't sound like 2002 now. The way her 2001 album, J-Lo, sounds like 2001 now. You get me?

And not all of these songs are about Ben Affleck, but I think we can safely assume that the song called Dear Ben is. And I really dig the way she sings, I love you. too. I wonder how I'd process this song and this whole album. And really Jennifer Lopez's whole career, I wonder if I'd like this song more or less if I didn't know that this song is sung by a super

famous movie star and pop star who is serenating her movie star boyfriend. And a year later, they'd break up. Nearly 20 years later, they'd get together again. And she'd make even wilder art about their ultra-celebrity relationship. And then they'd break up again. Do pop songs work better? with all that celebrity subtext? Or is it more just celebrity baggage? There's a scene in the Bonkers 2024 documentary about the Bonkers' 24 not a music video movie where Jane Fonda, who is leading the Zodiac Council

in the Bonkers, not a music video. Just trust me on this. Jane Fonda, off camera, but still very much on camera, is counseling Jennifer Lopez not to do any of this. She's telling J-Lo not to flaunt Benifer 2.0. Jane Fonda says, quote, I don't entirely know why,

but I feel invested in you and Ben, and I really, really want this to work. However, this is my concern. Like it feels too much like you're trying to prove something instead of just living it. You know, every other photograph is the two of you

kissing, the two of you hugging. End quote. And Jennifer Lopez, off camera, but forever on camera, she says, quote, That's us living our life. End quote. Can they both be right? Is Jennifer Lopez such a hard worker that she's being totally real,

even when she works way too hard to try to appear real? All as I know is it's very difficult to listen to a Jennifer Lopez song called Dear Ben and not get mired in all this celebrity stuff. But the song is just lovely enough and just real enough that I won't stop trying. This is not a normal person singing this song. If a pop song were sung by a normal person, it wouldn't be a pop song. And maybe Jennifer Lopez gets less normal the more she tries to convince you that she's normal. But this song, despite being called Dear Ben,

and addressed to an ultra-celebrity named Ben that I know way too much about, this song feels refreshingly human to me. It feels like a girl singing about a boy. Nothing less and nothing more. And it's heartbreaking, honestly. But as another movie star once told me, sometimes heartbreak can feel good. We are honored to speak once again

with Julianne Escobito Shepard, longtime writer and editor for hearing things, pitchfork, flaming hydra, Harper's Bazaar, The Fader, Jezebel, et cetera. She is working on her first book called Vakera. Julianne, thank you so much for being here again. Thank you so much for having me. I am excited.

I am excited as well. Okay. Why do you think it's so important to Jennifer Lopez that we think of her as Jenny from the block, that we think of her as real, that we think of her as a somewhat normal person? Like, why does realness matter so much to her specifically? Well, I think, you know, she, I don't know if you heard, but she's from the Bronx. And I think that, I think it's a big part of her identity. And I think she might feel a little bit, maybe a little weird about ascending to the point that she has. I think it can be really hard when you grow up with,

kind of struggling working class family and then succeed. You have like a weird sense of class betrayal speaking from my own experience. And I kind of just, but the other thing is like it just, it's really good for marketing. Right. There's there's a sincere reason and a more cynical reason. Right. I was going to ask, does it matter to you? We know that it matters to her, but like, I don't think of, you know, whatever there, wherever they came from, I don't think of Beyonce or Mariah Carey as relatable or real now. Like, that's not necessarily what people want from their pop stars.

Like, aren't pop stars supposed to be sort of abnormal by definition? Yes. I mean, like, you know, if you think back to like Madonna's heyday, of like, I mean, sure, the 80s, she was like the cool, like, club girl. But, like, you know, in the 90s, Madonna didn't want us to think she was on her plane. So now we're in this social media era. And I just think everyone has to, quote unquote, be relatable. And I think it's convenient because so many people are billionaires and just actually live lives that.

that none of us can relate to. So it's like if we don't think about how like they as people are relatable, we might, we might start thinking about their like carbon emissions. And that wouldn't be good. Oh, okay. Right. You know what I mean? And so in that sense, Jayla, I know exactly what you mean.

And in that sense, Jaila was early to this, you know, realization because, you know, Jenny from the block is way before social media. Right? Like she's not yet in the era. I don't even know if she's in the, I don't remember when stars there just like us became, you know, the catchphrase, the tabloid catchphrase. But it seems like she was early to this idea that all, as you say, all pop stars have now where you have to be somewhat relatable or accessible or just not seem like a billionaire all the time even if you are one. Well, I think also this, it's a little bit of cover for the fact that. she's not doing like malismas or whatever. So like you think,

you think to like what worked for Mary Jay Blige say, like the fact that she obviously is an amazing singer, but she didn't have like that really trained voice and she kind of like seemed like, you know, the around the way girl, right? And I think that maybe J-Lo took a page out of that because she's like, well, I'm not like out here doing vocal run. maybe if I relate to you as like your next door neighbor,

you won't expect me to do vocal runs. That's a very smart way of looking at it. You wrote a piece for pitchfork. I think about the last album, the most recent album, This is Me Now. And you called J-Lo's voice notoriously serviceable, which I thought was just a really lovely and fantastic and accurate phrase. So as a pure singer, you know,

is she a better singer than she? gets credit for, you know, do we only grade her on the curve of a Mariah or an Aretha? Like, she's not on that level. But, you know, is her voice good for what she's trying to do or is she still, you know, somewhat struggling? I think she's not overrated, no, or underrated. I think, you know, I think like on some songs, for sure, her voice is like, you know, maybe, obviously, obviously, we shouldn't be gauging her on a Mariah level. We shouldn't be gauging anyone on a Mariah level, really. But like, I do think she tries to do that sometimes. And it's just like, we don't need that. She can just sing. She doesn't need to be doing like all of that. Right. Does the backup

singer stuff, like the vocal tracks, like Ashanti, Christina, Emilion, you know, even Megan Trainor, I think, more recently. Like, that really bothers some people, just the idea that she has help vocally a lot of the time. Does it particularly bother you, or is this just kind of the way pop is made? I mean, the only thing that really bothers me is that some of these songs were meant to be Ashanties. But, allegedly. But, I mean. Yeah, I think we know at this point.

Yeah. Let's say allegedly. Just be careful. Allegedly. But, I mean, everyone has backup, like almost everyone has backup singers. Like, that does not bother me at all. And it's, it's like the, if she were fronting, like, she were some sort of, like, you know, purist, then maybe. But no one is going to a J-Lo album thinking that, like, she doesn't have help. It's fine. Right. Yeah. Yeah. What did you make of her as a pop star, J-Lo as a pop star, at first? first, like right in the late 90s and early 2000. Like, did she strike you as a movie star trying to be a pop star, you know, or did she seem like the real thing?

Did it feel like a natural fit from your perspective right away? So, like, I'm like telling me. Good answer. So my first introduction to J-Lo was like kind of most people's introduction to J-Lo, outside of like her fly-girl status, was that. she was playing Selena and there was a bit of a controversy at that time that they had a non-Mexican American playing a Mexican American. I think in the community there was like a little bit of beef that a Puerto Rican girl was doing it. But obviously she did a great job. I feel as though

it made sense because she was playing a pop star so it was a fairly like seamless transition it kind of felt like the embodiment of her aspirations and the girl that she was playing in Selena you know that's yeah yeah it's good answer

it's a great answer At first, at least, I associated her with like the late 90s Latin explosion, you know, with Ricky Martin and Shakira, you know, even Santana around Smooth. Like, did that feel like a real movement or was that more of sort of a corny music industry thing where people were sort of catching up to the fact that, you know, these people, many of them were already huge stars? Yeah, corny music industry thing, honestly. It was very, that was around the time. when a lot of marketing agencies realized that Latinos were making money and could spend it on things, which is bananas, but I remember, you know, in the late 90s. I know. Like the early 2000s, I remember getting, like, emails and press releases or whatever. Like, this untapped U.S. Hispanic market or whatever.

And it coincided with that. And I think it was really just like people kind of all realized at the same time that like, you know, Hispanics, quote unquote, have like purchasing power. But it was cool, though, because I think it really did break through. I mean, there's even today, there are still like entire huge, massive movements of Spanish-speaking artists that like non-Spanish-speaking people in the U.S. don't even know exist. So I'm glad it happened, but it wasn't like as deep as, you know, some trend pieces made it to me, I think. Another thing that's trying me immediately about J-Lo is how hard she was working and how hard she was working to show you how hard she was working. Like you bring up Madonna.

Like there are points where the point, there are points of Madonna's career, I feel like, where her effort is really, it's prominent. She's showing you how hard she's working. And at other times, it's sort of effortless. You know, there's sort of a gliding to it. And you're supposed to be impressed by how easy, you know, this whole pop stardom thing is. But I feel like J-Lo wall-to-wall has been about the effort, you know, has been about almost the strain of working this hard and doing everything she's doing. Did you all, did you get that vibe from her yourself, you know, that she was just trying so hard all the time? Yes.

She is trying so hard. Another thing that you don't, you may not know is that she doesn't drink. She never drinks. She tells you that a lot. And I think that goes hand in hand with like how she is working all the time. And it's like respect. This is like the work ethic. Like, you know, US Latinos like we're out here.

And I can, I get that. I get that pressure. But also like, girl, like you need to union. as yourself. Like, take a break, my friend. Go on strike against yourself. Yes. Okay, so talking about Jenny from the block specifically,

does the video overshadow the song, you know, the yacht and the paparazzi, like Ben Affleck, like does all that stuff sort of obscure the message of the song, which is supposed to be like, I'm from the Bronx. I didn't know if you know, I'm from the Bronx, very humble,

et cetera. Or is like, is the song always been about like the contradiction, you know, of her being a huge pop star, who's also trying to convince you of how real she is? It's always been the contradiction, but I think the concept of the video was a little too advanced for the time it came out.

Because when it came out, it was really just like, what are you talking about? Like, you're legit on a yacht, you're so famous, you're dating this famous Hollywood actor. You are not

like hitting the streets like that. But the video did kind of overshadow the song too because it was so influential in fashion. Like this woman had me out here wearing like Capri Cargos.

And that was not cute. But I was going to do it. No, that didn't. Okay. Anything for J-Lo. Very. I very much wanted to ask you about the fashion aspect of it, and I didn't even want to embarrass myself by, like, guessing or getting it at all specific. So what is J-Lo's legacy fashion-wise?

What did she, you know, besides the cargo caprice, that was one part of it. But, like, what did she bring to the table immediately from a fashion perspective? I mean, cargo caprice, newsboy caps, high-heeled Tims. And from that video alone, it was a look. And I was at the wet seal so fast. But also, she did have a line of jeans. and I did walk around the early 2000s with J-Lo's signature on my butt in rhinestones. Wow.

I think she's really given us a lot. To be clear, like I am ragging on her out of love. I love J-Lo. Sure. That's very clear. That is absolutely clear. Okay, great. You are ragging on her as only someone who loves her can rack on her.

Yeah, it's like family. I have to say that I really love the whole This Is Me Then album. Jenny from the Block is the big hit, of course. But like it's there's a, I love the love songs, right? I love almost the mushyness of it, the Ben Affleck of it all. Like it really works on me. Like is J-Lo underrated as an album artist? Yeah.

Yeah. This is Me Now. Totally Love This Is Me Now also. She is really good at those ballots. And I hate ballads. Like as a rule, I despise ballots. Okay. She's really good.

She buys into it. She buys into this like princess narrative. It's wild. And like her just sincerity about her love for Ben Affleck 20 years apart. It's. Yeah. It's very sincere. It's beautiful.

Is that why you hate ballads is the insincerity? Like you hate ballads, but you like J-Lo ballads. Like, what is it she specifically does to affect that transformation for you? Because they're imperfect and she's because she's trying so hard and she makes imperfect ballads. I mean, like, generally also ballads, I just like a fast BPM. I love a high BPM. and like and you know she she doesn't like it she I guess she does do schmaltz I guess that's what she like specializes him but it's like self-aware I don't know I just want to give her a pass

because she's so full of love there we go there we go so you liked this is me now the record it was just 24 it feels like much longer ago but you know it's it's not that long ago that puts out, as you say, the second album of songs about how much he loves Ben Affleck, like 20 years apart. So that record, you know, you wrote about it for Pitchfork and you wrote about it really tenderly, but like that record really worked for you immediately. Yeah, I loved it. Maybe I bought, maybe I too was in love with love, but I, I really liked it.

Well, sure. We all were, I think, at that point. We were all rooting for them at that point, I think. That's such a weird saga now, like that record, like the bonkers document. that she made about the bonkers Amazon movie that she made where she's that there's the hearts, the mechanical heart that you have to feed flower petals. And like it's just the most CGI I have ever seen in one place in my entire life. But it's it's over. Like this is all about a romance that has once again ended. And so like do you do you hear all that music? And do you even hear, you know, Jenny from the block now differently now that you know how it all finally ended?

I think it ended how it was supposed to end. Honestly, you know, and also actually it is a perfect ending because, lest we forget, she spent like $20 million of her own money to make. She spent a lot of, and she wanted you to know it. You know, that's another thing she wanted you to know. She wanted you to know it. If you watched a documentary, it was very clear that they were going to get divorced. You can just tell

Ben's patience is waning. Jalo is like, I've got to do this. I believe in myself so much. He's like, why did you give our love letters to these randos strange shirts? That's right. That was a great moment. When he walks in the studio and everyone's reading his love letters to J.A.Lo.

And he's like, I didn't know. I was content, honey. You should have known, but apparently it didn't. It is. I just, I wonder how I would have received that documentary if I'd watched it while they were still together. In retrospect, as you say, it's very easily, easy to tell that this isn't going to end well. But there, it was this weird blift that again was a year ago where it felt like this

was the storybook ending, you know, to the wildest, you know, celebrity romance ever, you know. and then it collapsed again. And I think you're right that that's the way it was always going to end up. But it's just very weird to think about all this music now in that context. It is very weird. To be clear, I watched both of those things the day they dropped and watching them. I knew. Like, I feel like if you've ever been in a relationship, you watch that doc and you're like,

oh, yeah, these guys are, they got six months tops. This isn't working. This is not working. But I really appreciate that this was the arc that we deserved. And this is the arc they deserved. It was. I'm really sorry it didn't work out. And they had to like buy three houses or whatever and then sell them.

But, you know, this is just like a truly beautiful American love story. That's the way love goes. as not J-Lo sang. Wow. Okay. Well, this has been wonderful, Julian. It's always great to talk to you. Thanks so much. Thank you so much. Can I say one more thing really fast? Please do. Please, please, please. El Contante, she should have got an Oscar. I'm not kidding. I was going to ask. Okay. I think I read things now, you know, where people are like, yeah, out of sight was great. You know, hustlers was great.

everything else is just like rom-coms or whatever but i i dug that too al-cantate like it's you know are there what is it about that movie that really speaks to you and are there any other j-lo movies that we are wildly underrating now no just that one but that's all right but there's one more it's very important i don't know there's two there's three and el cantante is the third okay yeah made in manhattan is good too but i don't think that's the oscar one oh sure She just really put her all into it. And I think that in another, if that movie had come out now, she would have been in the conversation.

And that movie would have been in the conversation. Mark Anthony would have been in the conversation. But it came out back when Oscar voters still didn't care about Latinos or any one. But like, you know, my people. all those problems now. Absolutely. Yes. Totally.

But yeah, she just, it's just such a wrenching story. And she knew, I think, that if she's messed it up, she was never going to be allowed back in the Bronx. So she had to really do it. And she did. She really deserved. Excommunicated from the block. Yeah. No, I know you're not kidding.

She deserved an Oscar. Okay. Oh, man. It's too bad. She'll get there. She might not get there, but she deserves to get there. She deserves it. Thanks so much, Julian. Thank you so much, Rob. This has been fun. Thanks very much to our guest this week, Julianne Esquibito Shepherd. Thanks, as always, to our producers, Justin Sales, Jonathan Kerma, and Bobby Wagner. Thanks to Olivia Creary for additional production help. And thanks very much to you for

listening. And now let's all go listen to Jenny from the Block by Jennifer Lopez. See you next week.