60 Songs That Explain the '90s - Limp Bizkit—“Nookie”

Episode Date: July 21, 2021

Rob explores rap-rock band Limp Bizkit’s signature single “Nookie” by discussing the rise of nü metal and how the genre centers around rage in its many expressions. This episode was originally produced as a Music and Talk show available exclusively on Spotify. Find the full song on Spotify or wherever you get your music. Host: Rob Harvilla Guest: Brittany Spanos Producers: Isaac Lee and Justin Sayles Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I had forgotten about the giant toilet. I cannot believe. I am so angry with myself, to put it mildly, it is unlike me to have forgotten about the giant toilet. Did you forget, let me remind you about the giant, about the 30-foot-high toilet on stage, from which, through which the Jacksonville, Florida, rap rock band, Wimp Biscuit, would emerge to begin,

every show like climbing out of the lid of this toilet the toilet is painted presumably to look used to look stained to look be fouled the toilet is super gross and lit biscuit would climb out of this gnarly gargantuan toilet to presumably applause and take the stage whereupon having emerged from the thirty-foot toilet the boys would then perform a song called pollution That is the voice, of course, of your friend in mind, Fred Durst, frontman, Limp Bizket. Fred likes both kinds of music, rap and rock. This occurred, the mega toilet did, during LentBiscuit's infamous stint on the main stage of the 1998 version of OzFest. The traveling hard rock and heavy metal Bacchanal first launched by Ozzy Osbourne in 1996 after Lala Paloza rejected him.

The thought process behind the Limp Biscuit mega toilet, such as it was, was that OzFest audiences, in turn, might reject Limp Biscuit. OzFest in 98. You got Ozzy, of course. You got Tule. You got Megadeth. You got Soulfly. You got Motorhead System of a Down and the Melvins on the second stage. You got a healthy overview of the past, present, and future of serious heavy metal dudes.

That's a rad lineup, honestly. And here come these rap rock clowns from Jacksonville, Florida. Are these guys joking? Are they posers? Are they corn rip-offs or what? Turn down the volume, limp biscuit. I do greatly enjoy photos of Fred Durst atop the mega toilet holding court,

as it were. Though depending on the camera angle or the photographer's distance from the stage, it can look like a regular toilet with a Fred Durst action figure posed on the lid. Like somebody just went ding and positioned him there.

Just so, like remember the starting lineup action figures of pro athletes, very popular at this time. I have Barry Zito from the Oakland A's here in my office, still for sentimental reasons. Anyway, the mega toilet, as Fred would explain to Rolling Stone the following year, was a message to Limp Bizkit's myriad haters. Specifically, Fred said, quote, everybody was saying Limp Bizkit is shit. So we said, okay, we'll be shit. We'll make a gigantic toilet and come out of it like five turds. We got their attention. They were watching the show and they were buying the records. You got to do that sometimes, man. End quote. Turn down the vocal, Limbiscuit. Nevertheless, they persisted. Limbiscuit's debut album. Three dollar bill, y'all,

was released in 1997 and featured such punishing jams as pollution and stink furs. And Stink finger and leech and clunk. Ah, yes, and also Faith. An extra uncouth cover of George Michael's 1987, smash hit Faith. Starting in the mid-90s, well into the 2000s, amongst rap rock bands, new metal bands, whatever you call them, whatever they call themselves, it was a popular scheme when first courting mainstream attention to cover some 80s pop chestnut, to disrespect some 80s pop chestnut, often, it seemed, to desecrate it. Marilyn Manson did Sweet Dreams, are made of this by the arrhythmics, very spooky, very subversive. Corn did Word Up by Cameo. Fear Factory did Cars by Gary Newman. That was dope, actually.

Orgy did Blue Monday by New Order, my junior year of college in 1999. Our big spring concert was Orgy opening for Sugar Ray. I covered it for the student newspaper. I used the F word twice in the lead. A couple years later, Alien Ant Farm did Smooth Criminal by Myrtle. Michael Jackson. Most of those covers feel semi-respectful, actually, but not Limbiscuit doing faith. This is my vote for the all-time cover song that most viscerally despises the original, and the feeling most likely is mutual. Wint Biscuit covered George Michael the way Attila the Hun covered Europe. Limbiscuit's version of faith, very much by design, sounds like five turds emerging from George Michael's jukebox. I do dig the rubbery baseline on the buildup here.

I remember hearing this for the first time on the radio or whatever and going, uh-oh, this doesn't sound like George Michael's original version of faith. I don't even know if I'm being sarcastic. I was an extraordinarily stupid 19-year-old person in 1997. You can find on the internet, Fred Durst's isolated vocals, for faith. And you don't need me to tell you this, but I'm going to tell you anyway, don't do that. When Fred Durs says, bring that beat back, it's for your own good. And for that matter, it's for

his own good. In effect, he's saying, bring back my special weighted blanket. He needs the beat more than the beat needs him, isolated vocals. Don't do that to yourself. Don't do anything. Actually, your only job, dear listener, in this moment before the beat drops, is to get in the pit mother fucker. A star is born. Fred, why are you so mad? Let me put it another way. I say that shit, just clown and dog.

Come on, how fucked up is you? You got some issues, Fred. I think you need some counseling to help your ass from bouncing off the walls when you get down some. It's 1997, and Lint Biscuit are about to be huge. Rage, the band, of course,

but also the noun, verb, and state of mind. Rage is about to be huge. Angry white men are about to be huge. Again, not again, still. Angry white men are about to be still huge. Let's dispense with this notion

that Limp Biscuit represents some sort of revolution, some vanguard, some apotheosis of angry white men. Puff Daddy did not invent the remix. Justin Timberlake did not bring sexy back, and Fred Durst did not invent the concept of breaking

stuff. Everyone calmed down. Limp Biscuit, so much to answer for. But what precisely should they answer for? Who are these clouds? Are they the symptom? Are they the disease? Are they the cure? They're not the cure.

What do they want? What did they really do? Let's try and figure this out. Helpfully, one thing we know for sure is why they did it. That was super corny. I apologize. My name is Rob Harvilla. This is 60 songs that explain the 90s.

And this week we are discussing Nookie by Limp Biscuit. That's B-I-Z. K-I-T. Nookie was the lead single in the band's second album, 1999's Significant Other. This week, my colleagues at The Ringer are proud to bring you the premiere of the HBO documentary

Woodstock 99, Peace, Love, and Rage about one of the most disastrous music festivals in American history. The movie's quite good. Of course, I would say that, but I'm not just saying that. And it's quite bleak. And Limp Biscuit, who of course performed at Woodstock 99, feature heavily in the film

as the villains, allegedly, according to some people in the film. In all fairness, Limp Biscuit did encourage you, the listener, frequently, to blame them for shit. So let's indulge them. What shall we blame on Lent Biscuit? Nookie is the real Y2K crisis. A while back I described, I want it that way by the Backstreet Boys as the end credits of the 90s.

Nookie is the surprise after credits movie scene where the aliens from Independence Day come back and blow up the White House again and then pee on it from space. Nookie us to the doorstep of the 21st century and heavily implies that human civilization will not make it to the 22nd. 1999, man, it's just one of those years where you don't want to wake up. Everything is fucked. Everybody sucks. Right off the rip, I'm here to tell you that 1994 was one of those years also. you want to build up here's a buildup

corner a new metal band from Los Angeles their self-titled debut album that's K-O-R-N by the way this is an audio-only medium and I'm trying to be thorough came out in 94 first song's called Blind the first great new metal band

somebody told me once the beauty of rock and roll is that you could spell you could style rock and roll however you want it rock and roll rock apostrophe n apostrophe roll rock capital N roll rock ampersand roll the freedom to style rock and roll how you want is what makes it rock and roll words to live by however canonically new metal must be styled n you with an umlout hyphen metal the umlaut is non-negotiable

the umlaut is both badass and hilarious i don't make the rules but i'm making them anyway because that's rock and roll. No, I was not ready. In 1994, I was an extraordinarily stupid 16-year-old, and corn scared the crap out of me. I don't mind telling you. Okay, I am embarrassed to tell you that, but I am also, to this day, impressed.

I used to sit around all day reading music magazines, right? And I do this incredibly bizarre thing where any press photo of a rock band I'd never heard or heard of before, If the dues in the band were glowering in this photo or looked at all menacing or even irritable, I would worry that they were a super heavy metal band and I'd be preemptively cowed by how super heavy they were. Honestly, I don't know if I can explain this properly. Even if it was like a power pop band named after a flower or a type of candy, I pictured every rock band I didn't already know as a metal band and I got scared of them in advance.

What is wrong with this person? and why is this person cowering under the coffee table when the beat the corns blind finally drops? Seriously, my friend Gene got me into Monster Magnet, the New Jersey Stoner Rock Band Monster Magnet. They thanked the guy who gave them dope in the credits to one of their albums. One guy just lists his name and then dope. I think it was the Super Judge album. Anyway, this is mid-90s pre-space Lord Monster Magnet, if you know that song. But Gene was an early adopter and dug them a lot.

lot, and so I dug them a lot. And first of all, don't ask me to explain why corn's blind terrified me, but a Monster Magnet song called Negasonic Teenage Warhead was totally okay. That's right. He said supersonic jerk off. That probably explains the appeal. Anyway, Monster Magnet were touring. Monster Magnet had a show in Cleveland. I live near Cleveland. I was so psyched to see Monster Magnet, but I didn't go because they were opening for corn. And I was scared of corn. I was scared of the way corn frontman Jonathan Davis sang the word why. The way he screamed the word why. All anguished and devastated like he was in a horror movie. I'm still too afraid to even let you hear the way Jonathan Davis sings the word why. Some fundamental part of me is still afraid of corn. Is it the

bass too? Is it the bass player whose name is fieldy? Is it fieldy? The bass player? The five-string detuned bass that sounds like the cables to the suspension bridge are walking across. just snapped, that must be it. Now, what is it? Is it the song in the first Korn record called Shoots and Ladders? That shoots spelled S-H-O-O-O-T-S? Is it the song called Shoots and Ladders that's entirely evil-sounding nursery rhymes? Terrifying.

Corne's first album was produced by a guy named Ross Robinson. Corn's first album basically launched the career of a guy named Ross Robinson. A guy accredited now as the guy. godfather of new metal. As a record producer, Ross is a lyrics guy, an emotions guy, an intensity guy, an in-studio violence guy, if that's what it takes to ring those intense emotions out of you. Ross talked to Metal Hammer magazine a few years back and he put it this way. Quote, I always want to know what the song is about and the instruments and voice to permeate what the singer is singing about on a spiritual level and not just on a performance level.

End quote. That's a little hoity-to-dy. How about an anecdote? Ross worked on a bunch of early corn albums. Here's Ross himself discussing his rapport with corn frontman Jonathan Davis on another corn record. Quote, I put the microphone on the floor, put Jonathan on all fours, and stood over his middle part. My hands were on him, on his shoulder muscles. And I told him, sing. And if I feel you holding back, I'm going to fucking hurt you. End quote.

All right. So the last song in the first corn album is called Daddy. I am not playing this. Jonathan Davis doesn't talk about this song much, but when he does, he says it's a song about being sexually abused as a child by his babysitter and his parents not believing him when he told them he was being sexually abused. The word why appears often in this song. This song, as you might imagine, is borderline unbearable, and this song ends with Jonathan Davis breaking down and sobbing in the vocal booth, audibly violently sobbing for several minutes. I am not playing any of this. That would be. glib in the extreme. You can opt in to that experience, but Ross Robinson is the guy overseeing this experience. And Ross is not glib about this either. He did a Kerrang podcast with Jonathan Davis in 2019, and Ross remembers it like this. He says, I went to the vocal booth and I said to John, I think I held his arms and looked at him, and I said, you know what to do. And he goes, yeah,

and I hit record. I don't need to tell you the downside to this primal scream therapy. I'm going to fucking hurt you, sobbing in the vocal booth approach to rock music when you get hypothetically. Some other shitty producer goading a bunch of shitty dudes and some other shitty band. The first corn record is a terrifying

and brutal but also a fantastic album that sets an incredibly dangerous precedent. In all grave seriousness, don't try this at home. Obviously, lots of bands tried it at home. But starting a 94 corner, the gold standard. and Ross Robinson is the gold standard.

He does Slipknot's first record in 1998, a song on the first Deftones record in 1995. That rad album, roots from the Brazilian metal band Sepuletura in 1996, all brutal, all fantastic. In the year 2000, he produces the Texas post-hardcore sort of emo band at the drive-in.

Their album, Relationship of Command. That's extra fantastic. Maybe the best rock album of the 2000s. And Ross is still all about flagrant, emotional intensity. There's a song on a relationship of command called Invalid Litter Department. It's about the epidemic of unsolved murders of women in Juarez on the Mexico-U.S. border. Now, we'll never forget this Rolling Stone article about At the Drive-In, and it says, Robinson had them imagine that the kick drum was the heartbeat of all the world's missing mothers.

They had defected and been excommunicated and all the pulses were subverted. And they made sure that the obituaries showed pictures of And in the article, the drummer for At the Drive in, Tony Hajar says, I haven't talked about this, but in that song, Ross brought up my mom. She passed away in 1988 and it was a poignant time. I don't know if I should have gone that far when we were recording. Now, every time we play it, I associate that song with my emotions about her. That's Ross Robinson for you.

And yeah, also, in 1997, Ross is the guy who brought you the first Lent Biscuit record. That's from a song called Nobody Loves Me. It's about how nobody loves Fred Durst. It is no great insult to say that there is no equivalent corn or at the drive-in moment of sheer emotional devastation on the first Lent Biscuit record, which, lest we forget, is called $3 bill, y'all. Quite frankly, it's a great relief to everyone that Fred mostly sticks to complaining about ex-bandmates. an ex-girlfriends. It's not a relief to them, of course. So Fred Durst. Fred Durst is 50 years old right now, which makes me want to break stuff. Fred was born in 1970 in Jacksonville, Florida, which I'm to understand is not a well-regarded part of Florida. Jacksonville is the Florida of Florida. Fred actually

grows up in North Carolina. He gets really into early rap music in real time. He starts rapping. He graduates from high school, joins the Navy, leaves the Navy, gets married, gets divorced. Now he's 20 years old. He's back in Florida. He's got a young daughter, and he wants to start a rap metal band. Limp Biscuit are not, and this has always been audible somehow, an overnight success. Corn, in fact, are essential to Limp Biscuit getting signed. Fred Durst met them in a tattoo parlor and passed them a demo tape. He was working at this tattoo parlor at the time Fred was, as a tattooist, a bad one. What of Corn's guitarists is named Head? Fred gave Head a corn back tattoo but it looked more like horn.

Prior to this for Lint Biscuit, there are lean years. There are discarded band members. Fred's got this bonker story from 1996, about the time the Lit Biscuit Tour van flipped over half a dozen times during the drive from Texas to California. The driver fell asleep. And nobody died, and Fred broke both of his feet. But Fred also decided that this was karma,

and quote, it was kind of like God flipping the van, end quote. And this was a sign that he should take the. band even more seriously, which in part entailed replacing the two guitarists who just survived the van crash with a guy they just replaced, a guitarist by the name of West Borland. So let's meet the core lineup, the classic lineup, the current lineup, actually, of Limp Biscuit. In a spin magazine cover story in 1999, they were all individually asked, where will you be 10 years from now? I find their answers illuminating. Fred Durst, frontman, in 10 years, he will be. quote, at between 10 and 20 million units sold.

That was a low estimate. Sam Rivers, bassist. In 10 years he will be, quote, in a big old mansion in the Caribbean. John Otto, drummer. In 10 years, he will be, quote, in two mansions, one in the Caribbean and one in Hawaii. DJ lethal, DJ, formerly of House of Paint. In 10 years, he will be, quote, making beats. And finally, West Borland.

guitar. In 10 years, he will be, quote, probably not in the band. Wes would, in fact, leave Lindbiscuit in 2001 and then return in 2004. He came back. I wonder why he did it. I have to say I dig West Borland's vibe immensely. This is the guy with the black contacts that make his pupils look enormous. This is the guy with the wacky, elaborate stage outfits. Well, sometimes they're elaborate. West Borland, confronted with the age old question, how do I draw attention to myself when I'm performing in front of a 30-foot-tall toilet

came up with the perfect answer, skeleton costume. West Borland, to me, I can't think of another guy in a band whose vibe often was so explicitly I hate this fucking band. I don't mean that like I hate the other guys in this band, like an Oasis or Flewwood Mac bandmate feud deal.

Some part of West Borland, to me, seems to find the very notion of limp biscuit fundamentally repugnant. I don't know why I say this. He just seems to be operating at a profound emotional remove. Maybe it's the contacts. Anyway, Corne helps these guys get

signed, and here comes Ross Robinson, godfather of new metal to produce their debut album. Don't make me say the name again. And Ross Robinson's presence is palpable. There's a volatile, violent, stuck in an elevator quality to $3 bill, y'all. It's about a

men screaming at one another in between songs like Stuck in which Fred Durs screams at his ex-girlfriend. Fred would later semi-apologize for that song. In Rolling Stone, he says, I was angry at my girlfriend and I let it build up. If you heard what she called me, I understand that two raws don't make her right. I was reacting. I didn't think of the consequences. I've learned my lesson. Now I soak everything in and then I respond. And when someone criticizes my lyrics, it makes me think twice. Was I a dick?

A homophobe? A chauvinist? No. But I go back to make sure. Not to quarrel with Fred. And you don't need to tell me this either. But I'm going to tell you anyway. Sometimes Fred can, in fact,

be a dick, a homophobe, and a chauvinist. Gay slurs, a stage banter, and so forth. But he learned to dial back the chauvinism, or at least refine the chauvinism, a little bit. Lombiscuit tours endlessly with corn. Three dollar bill y'all would eventually sell two million copies

and in 1999, time for the big time, time for significant other, time for magazine covers, time for Woodstock, time for true international notoriety, time for well, nookie. Fred's still talking about his ex-girlfriend

but I do love Wes Borland's dorky, jazzy little guitar riff there. Wes asserts himself. in delightful ways. Ross Robinson says he turned down the chance to produce Significant Other and seemed to sour on Limp Biscuit overall as they got bigger and brighter and poppier. Ross spent a few years generally publicly lamenting corn ripoff bands and cotton candy music. So Significant Other is produced by Terry Dale, another huge metal guy, deaf tones, white zombie, Pantera, Sound Garden, Stained. Is Significant Other a

poppier album? Is this a dreaded sellout? situation or did pop music in 1999 just mutate to better accommodate Wimpiscuit? The pre-chorus of Nookie, to my mind, is the catchiest part of the whole song, and in some fundamental spiritual way, also the truest. Nookie is a very stupid and extremely delightful song, but what made it pop was that the pop universe embraced it, radio embraced it. MTV, especially embraced it, just as it had embraced faith. If significant other sounds a little more like cotton candy,

that's just because millions of kids wanted to eat it. This record debuted at number one in the Billboard chart. This record landed Lint Biscuit in Rolling Stone and on the cover of Spin. I'd greatly enjoy lit biscuit profiles from this era for the way they're in conversation with each other. In the spin profile, Fred Durst is dating a talent manager at MTV, and the band goes to the Magic Mountain Amusement Park

in the San Fernando Valley. Everyone's pissed that they can't jump the line for the roller coasters. And then in the Rolling Stone profile, Fred is dating Carmen Electra, and he has an awkward run-in with his ex-girlfriend who works for MTV while they are both at Skywalker Ranch in Northern California, where the band was invited for a special preview screening of Star Wars Episode 1, The Phantom Menace. And there aren't enough limo seats for the ride home afterward, and everyone's pissed. And Tori Spelling is a half-empty limo, but she won't give anyone a ride. I realized that that is an astounding physical quantity of the year 1999.

That is a toxic, that is 40 times your physician's daily recommended dose of 1999. Side effects include acne, whooping cough, night vision, membership in the Green Party, and getting a living Labita Loca stuck in your head. Is significant other, the album, specifically inexorably tied to the year 1999? At times, lip biscuit, do sound like a gleefully. dystopian future. And at other times, they sound like Jane's Addiction hired House of Pains DJ. That song is called I'm Broke. It's about I shouldn't ask Fred Durs for money. At times, new metal doesn't feel all that new and you with an oom loud. I don't mean that ugly for music

lovers, for metal lovers, predisposed to hating new metal. This always struck me more as a branding issue than any sort of aesthetic judgment. Set aside the DJ. And DJ Lethal was an especially thoughtful and adventurous DJ, but most other new metal DJs are quite easily set aside. Set aside the DJs and most new metal is just briefly more popular metal. There's not even as much rapping as you might remember. And lyrically, this wasn't all that much of a departure. Whining about your ex-girlfriends in song, for example, is not an activity exclusive to new metal.

And in fact, predates new metal by several decades, though I will concede that Fred Durst did a truly heroic amount of whining in this regard. That song is called Don't Go Off Wandering. He's whining about his ex-girlfriend. Significant other also has a song called No Sex. It's power ballad adjacent. And Fred seems to be mad at a lady because all they do is have sex. I don't take Fred to be a sarcastic guy in the slightest,

but I'm having a hell of a time plotting that song on any kind of irony, sincerity axis. There is a song called In Together Now, in which Fred Durst, if you can believe this, is handily outwrapped by Method Man. It's the upset of the century. You know what the third most remarkable track on Significant Other is? It's at the very end

when MTV VJ Matt Pinfield shows up to whine about the sorry state of modern music. I'm tired of all those lame-ass, tame-ass, prefabricated sorry excuses for singers and musicians who don't even write their own songs. What the world needs now is a musical revolution. See if you can guess the five to ten specific artists.

Matt Pinfield is thinking of right here in 1999. MTV's Total Request Live, TRL launched in 98, and soon it felt like teen pop had taken over the whole network. Backstreet Boys, In Sync, Britney Spears, Christina Aguilera. And on TRL, new metal was a valuable counterbalance. Corn were huge on TRL. Corn's third album, Follow the Leader, came out in 98, the one with Got the Life and Freak on a Leash.

That record kicks ass. man. And so by 1999, you've got this turf war. The badass new metal dudes felt compelled to performatively complain about the wimpy boy bands. M&M, the Slim Shady LP comes out in 99. We got to deal with

Eminem calling out teen pop stars by name for the next five years, rhyming Fred Durst with who she gave head to first. Leave it alone. So here we have Matt Pinfield, very angrily taking aside, while quite diplomatically declining to

name any names. We need some rock. We need something that has boss. We need something with substance, depth, something with soul, some edge, some passion, some power. Does Lint Biscuit have substance, per se,

depth, soul? Forget it. Who cares? I'm so fucking tired of the shit that I'm hearing on the radio. Radio sucks. The same fucking songs over and over again. May I remind you that Matt Penfield works for MTV?

MTV played the same fucking songs over and over again. That was the whole point. So now Fred Durst has a conundrum. Fred Durst wants to be a pop star. He is a pop star. He wants to be a Master P-type mogul and multimedia sensation. He wants to direct movies. He directed the videos for Faith and Nookie.

He would eventually direct movies. They are bad. But he directed them. All of this, though, requires networking, schmoozing, people-pleasing, selling out. Selling out is not going to be a thing for very much longer, but nonetheless, part of Ross Robinson's complaint about Limp Biscuit in this era, commercial peak, Limp Biscuit, in other words, is that there's no real difference, ambition-wise,

between Fred Durst and Brittany Spears. Both have been thoroughly embraced by the music industry, and both, for the moment at least, are hugging the industry right back. which brings us the limp biscuit getting tapped for Woodstock 99, Metallica, Rage Against the Machine, Red Hot Chili Peppers, Megadeth, Kid Rock, all those dudes played Woodstock 99. But if you know one band that played Woodstock 99,

it's Limbiscuit, which brings us, after Nookie, of course, to the second most remarkable song on Significant Other. Breakstuff is a very stupid and extremely delightful song. Also, Breakstuff is about getting mad. and breaking stuff. Self-explanatory. What's less clear is whether break stuff is the cause or the effect. Do I like break stuff because it makes me want to break stuff? Or do I like break stuff because it articulates my pre-existing desire to break stuff? We're back to the question of whether Lid Biscuit are the symptom or the disease or the cure. Okay, we've eliminated cure. Symptom or

disease. You know what Fred Durst's about to say to those motherfuckers. Maybe you knew before you ever heard him say it maybe not in these exact words i hope but maybe you'd already said it yourself in a second i'm going to leave lit biscuit right here more importantly i'm going to leave you here before the beat drops because i want to see what you do because what i really want to know is are lit biscuit responsible for whatever you do when this beat drops are lit biscuit responsible for anything anybody breaks during the song break stuff that's the woodstead Stock 99 conundrum. Anyway, the thing about this Woodstock 99 documentary that I'm still chewing over is the idea

that Kirk Cobain's death in 1994 was devastating to the emotional development of modern rock as a whole. Nirvana were widely beloved and also broadly inclusive, and Kurt is wearing dresses and shouting out riot girl and the raincoats and so forth. Nirvana in particular and grudge overall, to some degree, is a bigger tent, a more thoughtful and sensitive and welcoming approach to rock. of course there is darkness there's rage there's guitar smashing and bass tossing onstage violence but more people are invited to this party everyone is invited to nirvana's party that's the

theory the second part of that theory is when kirk colbane dies in 1994 the year the first corn record comes out new metal is a major part of what slowly fills that vacuum and for the next five years angry white men who are often specifically angry at women suck up more and more and more of the oxygen and push out more and more people who aren't angry white men. And this culminates in the dipshit rage fest that was Woodstock 99 and the epidemic of sexual assault and violence against women during Woodstock 99, not to mention the fires, the destruction, the total disregard for private property, and also, to some degree, human life.

Break stuff is in a moment, roughly midway through this horrific three-day festival, where the 90s break bad, where the 90s break. where the 90s die. That's the final part of the theory. That's the charge leveled against this band and leveled against break stuff and leveled against Nookie and leveled against every knuckle-headed word that ever popped out of Fred Durst's mouth. And even if you don't like the guy one bit, you might still wonder if he's not a little bit of a generational patsy.

We all know why Limp Biscuit Biscuit did it, but is Lint Biscuit Biscuit really why we did it? Our guest today is Brittany Spanos, staff writer at Rolling Stone. Check out a rad cover story on Billy Eilish right now. Brittany is the best. Welcome, Brittany. Thank you so much for having me. Of course. You and I talked a while back about your love for summer girls by LFO.

And now here we are talking about your love for Nookie by Limp Biscuit, both from 1999. But I think some Limp Bizkit fans would argue that these songs are two different warring universes. So first of all, which song is better? Summer Girls are Nooky. It's hard because it's like two different moods, right? It's like two very distinct kind of zones that I need to be in.

Right. And both karaoke classics, both songs, I will scream out, even though Summer Girls doesn't really warrant the screaming part. But it's, I don't know. I would say like I, Summer Girls, I like a lot more as like a song because I listen to it a lot. but the thing is there are like limp biscuit songs that I love probably more than I love Summergirls. So like in Nookie versus Summer Girls, in that bracket, I'll choose Summer Girls. But I would say like I would choose like rolling over Summer Girls.

I was actually going to ask you if you've ever done Limp Biscuit at karaoke because you're the only person I know who would even think to attempt that. And I am so thrilled to hear that you have done that. And that has gone well for you. You have survived limp biscuit karaoke. I mean, new battle at karaoke, it should be more common.

Like, it's surprising to me that more people don't do a variety of new metal karaoke. Yeah, yeah. What are the limp biscuit songs better than summer girls?

Just so you got rolling, of course, break stuff. Would you put great stuff? Yeah, yeah. I love the covers. Like,

I love the behind blue eyes cover and the faith cover. Yeah, I don't know. I just like, I feel like break stuff and Roland are like, those are the top three, I think, sort of like moments. Bitter's sweet symphony. Didn't you do like a home sweet home bittersweet symphony? Yeah. Like combo cover, you know,

like a mashup, I guess. They did some great covers. I believe you were like six or seven years old in 1999 when Nookie came out, right? Yeah. Did you hear it immediately? Did you love Lint Biscuit immediately or did you come to them a little later? Not in 99. Like in 99. I was still like very much, I was kind of beginning to form my own music taste. And so I was listening to InSync and Backshue Boys and Britney Spears and Christina. Like that was really all I could fathom at that moment in my life. But I got really into Limp Biscuit around the age of like 10, I would say, because that's when my music taste started to shift. Did you understand immediately that Limp Biscuit were like, they styled themselves as being a direct

opposition to everything you previously loved. Was that part of the appeal? Yeah, I mean, I was definitely, like, aware of them as characters in the MTV extended universe just because they were so present at TRL and they were present at the VMAs. And there was, you know, I do remember that, like, Fred Durs, Christina, Brittany, drama kind of, like, vaguely happening in the background and not fully understanding it, but he was, like, a character in those. Like, but yeah, like they definitely were so different.

I mean, that was also why, like, my taste when it was starting to change was because all my boy bands were breaking up. Like, all of the pop stars that I loved so much were, like, completely changing their images. And, like, I could not fully understand that at the time. So I was like, you know what? I like hard rock now. Like, that is my, I'm angsty because Justin Timberlake has abandoned the one thing I love

in life. That is very devastating. Yeah. So it was like limp biscuit. and that was part of sort of just like a game system of down, Good Charlotte, Lincoln Park,

like all the kind of really popular rock bands at the time. As characters, what role did Fred and Limpisket as a whole play sort of in the TRL extended universe? Were they explicitly villains? Yeah, they were very antagonistic.

And the same of like Eminem where they just kind of were so opposed to the vibe of all of those boy bands and the pop stars because they were so squeaky clean and presented themselves as such and kind of wanted to tarnish that image. Like, I felt like Fred Durst really wanted to, like,

tarnish the images of the very, like, virginal, like, teen girl stars who kind of had this, like, innocence to them. And so he seemed to kind of oppose that. Yeah. Did you think Limbiscuit were bad boys or tough guys or, like, actually dangerous? Or were they just sort of cuddly? They seem kind of just funny.

I don't know. And the same with, like, Eminem. Like, there was, like, such a joakiness to it, I guess. Like there was like no, I guess there was like an edge to it, but it was also like they were funny. Like I don't know. They did like weird. It was like I could never take them all too seriously. Right.

There was no sense of immediate danger. Like if I saw Fred Durst on the street, I would not feel threatened at all. Like I would not feel like, oh no, he's like, you know, like, you know, punch me or something. Like there's like no immediate threat. It's Fred. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, if I like squared up in a second like Fred Durst would go running.

Were your parents, like, were your teachers aware of Lint Biscuit, or, like, they forbidden or discouraged or illicit in any sense? So actually, like, my dad's a huge metalhead. So he's kind of part of me learning about a lot of the bands I started to get into when I was around, like, 10, 11. And so he was, like, a kind of Metallica-era metalhead and, like, mega-death and stuff like that. but he also really loved new metal and he loved like system of a down. We would like listen to toxicity a lot and we would listen to like all that kind of like newer hard rock that would come out. And Limbiscuit he also really liked. So we would have like the hard rock radio stations and alt rock radio stations on a lot in his car.

So it was very familiar with him. My mom was like fine with it. The only artist she really hated was Eminem. Sure. That's the one to hate if you're going to hate one. I think. Yeah. Like she just like did not.

obviously, like, there's so many reasons not like him, and so she just did not fly with him. Sure. But I went to Catholic school, so a lot of music, we really couldn't play at dances and stuff like that. And I don't remember Olympuskit being explicitly banned, but I also don't remember, like, dancing to Nookie or rolling at any, like, dances in junior high.

So, yeah. They weren't forbidden. They weren't forbidden, but they weren't encouraged necessarily, I guess. That's interesting about your dad, because I was trying to remember if, like, metal people hated new metal, or if there was like a growth period, you know, where they had to get used to it. Like, if there was an elitism, like a Metallica person would take a while to come around to Lint Biscuit. But for your dad, it was pretty immediate that he was into this.

Yeah. He was kind of just like a sort of catch-all hard rock. Like, if he liked it, he liked it. Sure. He never took it too serious. I mean, because he also, like, he was, like, listened to a lot of different stuff. And obviously, like, Metallica to him was what in sync was to me. Like, it's just like the bad.

Like, he, like, only. wears Metallica shirts, you know, but he's not elitist about it. Like, he doesn't, like, feel a certain way. Like, I know, like, a lot of Rage Against the Machine fans sort of know that, like, that's sort of the precursor to Limp Biscuit. So they, like, hate Limp Biscuit that for being the product of that. And my dad's, like, not very much like that. He just, and if it was, like, fun. And, you know, he liked the silliness of bands, like Limp Biscuit a lot. Yeah. Rage Against the Machine themselves seem to take Limp Biscuit personally. Were you also went to corn. Like you said, like you were a new metal person in general. Yeah, yeah. Love corn. Um,

you know, love deaf tones. Like, it's just like pretty much all of it. I'm, I'm a big fan. Yeah. As for as for Lint and Biscuit and Rolling Stone, like I remember the magazine at the time, like covering them kind of through gridded teeth, right? Like, I don't remember, I don't remember them on year end lists or anything like that. Like, has, has the magazine's affection for Lint Biscuit or new metal like increased in retrospect, like over the years? I feel like it's like a generational divide. Sure, sure. Susie Expecito, my really good friend was at Rolling Stone with me.

We were both huge, huge fans of New Metal and of like all of that kind of rock that a lot of our colleagues who had to cover it. Like, you know, Brian Hyatt and Rob Sheffield have such like distinct memories of covering Woodstock 99 that are traumatizing. And so we're just like, yeah, that seemed great. Like we love this stuff. And they're like, okay. Like, sure.

Like, how was that turned around? But, yeah, it was, it's definitely like, I don't know. I think it was also one of those things where, like, the appeal was much more to older teens at the time. And, like, I think there was kind of a coolness that we absorbed from that. Woodstock 90 and I, I can't imagine, made any sort of dent in your consciousness at all in real time. Yeah, I don't think I knew what it was until I was much, like, not much older. I would say, like, a teenager and kind of, you know, interested in music history and was like, What's this?

It's probably better off that way. It's better enjoyed in retrospect and having not been there. I feel bad for your colleagues who were. So what is your read on Fred Durs? Like, is he a great frontman because he's hateable or because he's lovable, because he's dangerous, because he's harmless? Like, what is Fred Dursk's appeal? I mean, you know, he had a very signature look that obviously has become fraught in the years

following. I do feel bad. You know, like the red hats are really four limb biscuit and now it's rough. Yeah, it is. You know, it sucks. But yeah, I mean, it's just kind of from that era of like these like white boys trying to be really tough and none of them came off as tough. Like none of them came off as like convincingly edgy and dangerous. And I think they're all kind of funny to look back on. And I think I found them all very funny in that time because they had such an impact on all the white boys I went to school with who were not edgy at all at my Indiana Catholic school. Oh, God. But thought they were.

Wow. That's tough. So that to me makes it funnier because it's just kind of like, that's not real, but okay. Is Fred Durst hot? I find him hot. I think he's hotter now. I don't think he was hot in the early 2000. I think, like, present day Fred Durst is attractive.

He's aged gracefully in a very bizarre, unexpected way. I don't think he would have. predicted that he would have aged gracefully. But he has somehow. Went to his Instagram earlier today because he like wiped all of it. But he had like a very like sweet sort of Instagram presence. And it was just like old cars. Like he would just post about old cars constantly.

And you know, it was just like very like funny. Like there was like no pictures of him on it for the longest. And it was just like him like posting about old cars that he saw just around. And it was like very, it was very weird but also kind of strange. Very wholesome. Yeah. That's just a dad-core Instagram account. I love it.

Are you following his movie career at all? A little bit. I actually watched a movie that he was in. Wait, I think he was in. I don't know if he directed it. And it was like a horror movie that I watched, like, early in the pandemic, like, when I was really just in the depths, in the trenches of every streaming service. That's the time to do that. And it was truly awful.

And I've seen his e-harmonie ads that he's done. His what's now? He's in E-Harmony ads? He did like E-Harmony ads like a few years ago. Like as a spokesman, as a client. As a director. As a director. As an a tour.

As an otter. Oh my goodness. That's fair. Did you see the movie where he was a cop? I have this memory of you tweeting about him. Yeah. Yeah. I don't remember if he directed it or anything.

He was in it and it was just like truly horrendous. Like it was like one of the worst movies. ever seen my entire life. But it was so funny. And it was like one of the few movies I didn't like marathon with friends. So I was just like, just like absorbing this chaos alone. Alone, yeah. I was just like, this is not it.

I think the last movie directed was the fanatic, the one where John Travolta is like a stalker. Yes, I haven't seen that one yet. There, I don't recommend that movie either. I've been told to not watch it. It's not the worst movie I've ever seen. There's a scene though where there's a scene though where they're, the guy that he's stalking is driving in his car with his son, and he puts on Limp Biscuit. Like, they play.

And the Leonardo DiCaprio meme from Once Upon a Time in Hollywood where he's pointing at the TV. Like, that was me when Lint Biscuit started playing in the Fred Durst movie. But yeah, you can, you can skip that one. I've been told repeatedly to not watch it. Like, I've been, like, people have been, like, begging me to not watch it. Because for the longest time, I wanted to watch it so badly. and like everyone was just like, please do not put yourself through that pain.

Those are good friends. So yeah. You have good friends. How many times have you seen Limbiscuit live? I've only seen Limbiscuit once. It was at in 2014 at the Best Buy theater in the middle of Times Square. Great venue for a chaotic show. It was an insane mosh pit.

And I remember at that time I wasn't in a lot. I was, you know, I cover pop music and I'm not in a lot of mosh pits. And so I had been a while since I had been in one and is very fun. And I actually. looked at the set list and they did not perform Nookie. Really? They performed everything else, but they did not do Nooky. I was like, for some reason, I just like never registered that they just had left out

such a big song, but that was left out of the set list, surprisingly. Is that a typical thing? Is that, did they sort of set that aside? You know, like radio head with creep, I guess would be, you know, like we're not going to play our biggest song. I feel like it's, I've never like heard about sort of like a big thing that they had with Nookie, but yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, the set list did have welcome to the jungle because Axel Rose was in the audience. Oh, wow. Did he get up on stage? No, he was just, I just, I do remember seeing Axel Rose like in the back, just like in his like weird hat and mini chains and like, you know, as he has want to to wear lately. And Fred Durst pay tribute to him. And that's very sweet. When you listen to break stuff, is there any part of you that actively. wants to break stuff. Like, I'm fascinated by this idea of break stuff as, like, the most riot-inducing song of a generation.

Like, does that song make you personally more violent? No, because I listen to stuff like Break Stuff and, like, any sort of hard rock all the same way, which is, like, kind of just laying on my couch or my bed, sort of solemnly, like, playing it, you know? Okay. And I'm just like, this is great. There we go. So that's kind of my vibe.

You're breaking stuff vicariously. They break stuff for you. Yes. I'm like, you know what? It is just one of those days, Mr. Dirst. Absolutely. Are you into their later stuff? Like, when's the last time you listened to Gold Cobra, for example?

I was like, I don't think I've listened to the last two albums at all. Like, I would say, like, the 2003 album is really the one with, like, behind blue eyes. Like, that's kind of the last one I've listened to. Results may vary. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Let's see now.

Sure. Good for them. Yeah. I'm glad, you know, Fred Durst found passion in directing. Yes. Yes. Exactly. And jazz, his little jazz club.

What is his jazz thing? I don't know if I fully understand this or think that it's real, I guess. He hosts a jazz night. And I don't know if he owns the club, but it's in L.A. And he, like, hosts a jazz night. I don't know if it's back yet. it's one of my like biggest dreams to go to this um because jeremy renner and lady gaga sung at it wow which is very funny to me that is that is quite a trio a jazz trio to imagine like

just fred up there with a clarinet or something that's you definitely need to check that out and tell me what it's like it seems like a great time it totally does um halsey obviously is making a record with nine inch nails like first of all who should fred durst work with should fred durst produce like an Ariana Grande record. Yeah, I feel like Fred Ders should like, he should do some sort of like guest track on something. Like I feel like he would be really good on like a little Uzi Burt song or something. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

He would just be really fun. Like, I don't know. I would love for him to do something. And I feel like so many of this sort of like sound cloud emo rappers have so much stake in new metal too. But I don't know if I want him by the pop girls just yet because I don't know who he would be a good fit with. Maybe, like, I feel like Rina might be able to do it.

I was going to say, you've written about Rina Salaama, and that record feels to me like Nookie and Summer Girls colliding and exploding. Like, are we in for more of that? Do you think? I hope so. I'm, like, I'm so genuinely shocked and excited about the Halsey album that she's kind of pivoted to this direction too. And, like, the Rina album was kind of, like, such a refreshing jolt.

And, like, so even kind of different than what she had been doing for a while. And so I love that she kind of went for this little, like, little, like, tougher kind of new metal sound with a lot of the songs. And, of course, like, poppy, wit, full new metal. Like, now I think she's just, like, stepped into it. I would love for more of that. I feel like there's so much, so many opportunities for that. And I think that's a lot, there's a lot of pop stars,

but I think you have a lot of fun, especially for, like, early 2000s nostalgia. Like, maybe the next Olivia Rodriguez album is, like, her just, like, we love good for you. We love brutal. like now I'm just going to, you know, get in West Borland to produce my sophomore album. I'm sure, I'm sure Wes would be into that. You'd wear the contacts, you know, he would just sit there. Yeah, that sounds fantastic.

It's always great to talk to you, Brittany. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for having me. Thanks very much for our special guest this week, Brittany Spanos. Thanks as always to our producers, Isaac Lee and Justin Sales. And thank you very much for listening. And now without further ado, here we have Lintz, biscuit with Nookie. We'll see you next week.