60 Songs That Explain the '90s - Madonna—“Vogue”

Episode Date: July 14, 2021

Rob explores Madonna’s ’90s house hit “Vogue” by discussing the Queen of Pop’s remarkable ability to reinvent herself, her meticulous involvement in her work, and how those within the ballroom scene received her musical homage. This episode was originally produced as a Music and Talk show available exclusively on Spotify. Find the full song on Spotify or wherever you get your music. Host: Rob Harvilla Guest: Caryn Ganz Producers: Isaac Lee and Justin Sayles Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I would like to immediately and tactfully address the matter of hanky-panky. Our topic today is Madonna, and specifically how Madonna fared in the 90s, and thus it behooves us to recall that brief, perplexing moment in the year 1990, when one could frequently on the radio hear Madonna singing a song called Hanky-panky. committing, I think you'd agree to a song called Hanky Panky. They played this on the radio. It was a top 10 single. True stories.

Yeah. So in 1990, Warren Beatty's Dick Tracy movie finally comes out. For young people, Warren Beatty, iconic movie star, new Hollywood heartthrob, sexy grumpus. Bonnie and Clyde, Shampoo, Reds, Ishtar, Bullworth, Town, and Country. The guy who fucked up the Oscars a couple years back, the Moonlight, La La Land, Screw Up guy. that guy. He directs and produces and stars in the titular role of Dick Tracy. For young people, Dick Tracy, valiant, square-jawed hero of a hard-boiled newspaper comic strip, been around since 1931, about an Elliott Ness-type detective battling Al Capone-type gangsters who all look like

Simpsons characters and have names like flat-top and prune face. McDonald's did a scratch-off game tie-in for the Dick Tracy movie. Second-best McDonald's contest of all. time. After Monopoly, of course, do I recommend Warren Beatty's Dick Tracy movie? Yeah. You got Al Pacino is the bad guy as Big Boy Caprice. Big Boy was worth $100,000 at McDonald's. You got Glenn Headley. You got Dustin Hoffman playing a character named Mumbles. You got Charles Durning. You got Kathy Bates and Catherine O'Hara in there somewhere. Bright Primary Colors, Little If Any, CGI, Tommy Guns and shit. You could do worse. could Warren Beatty, and so

too could Madonna, who also stars as a luscious nightclub singer of ill repute named Breathless Mahoney. Mandy Patinkin plays her piano player, 88 Keys, he's in love with her, she's in love with Dick Tracy, and she has, as you might

imagine, awfully specific sexual desires for a PG-rated Disney movie. Even when I can just spike me. I think Howard Stern used to play that clip out of nowhere on his show. I found that quite amusing when I was 12. And also now, in 1990, Madonna is a crazy huge pop star.

She puts out two records in 1990. One is her first greatest hits album, The Immaculate Collection, 15 monster hits plus two new songs, one of which is Justify My Love, an extremely justifiable greatest hits album, even though Madonna's self-title debut had come out only six, seven years earlier in 83. She is unstoppable.

She is untamable. She is nearly without precedent. Three number one albums already. Seven number one singles already. A marriage and divorce to Sean Penn already. Quick highlight reel. Her best album at this point is like a prayer. Her best song is like a prayer.

Her best ballad is crazy for you. Her second best ballad is live to tell. Her best video is Material Girl. Her second best video is Open Your Heart. Her best live performance is Like a Virgin at the MTV Video Music Awards, rolling around in her wedding dress. Her best fashion accessory and a huge upset is the floppy hat with a giant bow on it in the borderline video. Her best movie is Shanghai Surprise. Just kidding.

Her best controversy is Papa Don't Preach because impressively it angered both conservatives because she talked about unwed pregnancy and Planned Parenthood because the song appeared to be anti-abortion. And her best press quote is... Crucifixes are sexy because there's a naked man on them. That's Madonna. In the year 1990, she turned 32. The 80s are over. But nonetheless, the future's so bright, she's got to wear shades. One more time.

At this point, Madonna, of course, also wants to be a crazy huge movie star, and that ain't happening. By default, out of a half dozen tries already, Dick Tracy is by five. far her best received movie and movie role. It's already cartoonish and hyper-styled this movie, so she's fine in it. She's basically channeling Marilyn Monroe, Barbara Stanwick, Jessica Rabbit, Betty Boop, and Bugs Bunny when he dresses up as a girl bunny. She sings a bunch of raucous and goofy nightclub torch singer of ill-reput type songs, three of which were written specifically for this film by Stephen Sandheim, and all of which are collected on Madonna's 1990 album, I'm Breathless.

Do I recommend the Madonna album? I'm breathless. Out of context, these songs are awfully silly with a disconcerting time warp aspect, especially now and this is a 30-year-old album, evoking the prohibition aesthetic of a 90-year-old comic strip. The song, After Hanky Panky, is called I'm Going Bananas. It's a Carmen Miranda tribute. Don't get involved.

I will say that one of the Sondheim songs, sooner or later, one best original, song at the 1991 Oscars. Not Madonna's win technically, but she committed here too. Madonna performed sooner or later during the 91 Oscar ceremony, and her date was Michael Jackson, and she went full Marilyn Monroe because of course she did. And she also shouted out Gulf War General Norman Schwarzkopf because of course she did that also.

She sounds out of breath at the beginning here because she's whapping the floor of the stage with her giant fur stole. Years later, Madonna would brag to James Corden during carpool karaoke that her evening at the Oscars with Michael Jackson led to, quote, both tongue and mouth kissing, end quote. And frankly, I don't care for any part of that sentence. I'm Breathless sold 7 million copies worldwide and peaked at a respectable number two on the Billboard album chart, bested only by MC Hammers. Please Hammer.

don't hurt him. This particular Madonna album's popularity was due in large part to the fact that inexplicably the last song on I'm Breathless is Vogue. My name is Rob Harvella. This is 60 songs that explain the 90s in this week. We're talking Vogue by Madonna. What is Vogue doing on the I'm Breathless album? Goes without saying Vogue is no connection to Dick Tracy. Goes without saying Vogue bears no sonic or tonal resemblance to the fancy cheeseball gangster pastiche of all the other songs on i'm breathless but making things that don't make sense make sense anyway is kind of madonna's whole thing she needed a single that's just about the size of it and boy did she get one vogue was her eighth number one hit vogue was the best-selling single of 1990 overall vogue is the best madonna video full stop shout out

david fincher vogue is the best madonna song of the 90s which is not to imply that it was all downhill for Madonna for the rest of the decade. She made way better albums in the 90s, for one thing. She adapted. She expanded. She experimented. She provoked. She survived.

She shocked plenty more people or shocked the same people she'd shocked earlier all over again. And she didn't even have to go door to door yet. But of course, Madonna had already done enough shocking people for several lifetimes by 1990. What a strange experience to be a little kid. to be a young, impressionable, but pre-sexual human in the mid to late 80s, as Madonna ascended to MTV dominance and global megastardom, and to understand that this person was controversial and confrontational and quote-unquote sexy and possibly outright dangerous without quite understanding why.

Boy, this lady sure makes my parents uncomfortable. Boy, this lady sure smooches a lot of dudes. Boy, this lady sure likes rolling around on the ground. Boy, this lady sure loves her belly button. The belly button thing is not conjecture on my part. Her second best quote of the 80s, taken, like the naked guy on the crucifix bit, from a 1985 cover story in Spin Magazine reads as follows.

Quote, my favorite button is my belly button. I have the most perfect belly button, and any, and there's no lint in it. I never wore a jewel in my belly, but if I did, it would be a ruby or an... emerald but not a diamond. When I stick my finger in my belly button, I feel a nerve in the center of my body, shoot up my spine. If 100 belly buttons were lined up against a wall, I could definitely pick out which one is mine. I love it. There's narcissism, and then there's boasting that you're the best

at narcissism. The world revolved around this lady. So much of what happened in the world on both a personal and sociopolitical level, appeared to be a direct visceral response to the antics of this lady. First concert that I ever saw in my life, the monkeys with Weird Al Yankovic opening. This was after MTV started showing monkeys reruns in the mid-80s. This is Dare to Be Stupid Era Weird Al. It was getting late. We had to leave the show before the monkeys did. I'm a believer.

I was so bummed. I remember exactly one song from this whole evening to this day. and it was a weird owl doing like a surgeon. Like a surgeon. That hay is why Weird Al is the best. Weird Al naturally had a whole elaborate stage setup, the hospital bed, the scrubs, the EKG, possibly even the lion from the like a virgin video.

Don't bet against it. He's a professional. Here's a waiver for you to sign. Did I even know what a virgin was in that moment? don't worry about it. Madonna was everywhere. Madonna Parades were everywhere. Madonna criticism. Something frightfully close to Madonna hatred was everywhere. She made the cover of Rolling Stone for the first time in 1984, same year as her second album, Like a Virgin. And the cover line was, Madonna goes all the way. And the cover story by Chris Connolly portrayed her as

ambitious, relentless, and perhaps even heartless in her ambitiousness. You know, know the deal. Quote, she's in the same Sands Midriff getup featured in her videos, but in person, she doesn't adopt the coyly fetching approach you might anticipate. This is a woman who saves her sex bomb act for the times when the meter's running. And don't let her oft-flashed boy toy belt buckle fool you. The men who have gotten close to her, tough guys, a lot of them, have gotten their hearts broken as often as not. Throughout her life, there has been one guiding emotion. ambition. That rolling stone piece also got around to sketching out the Madonna origin story.

Born Madonna Louise Chaconay in Bay City, Michigan. Oldest daughter and a family is six, a daddy's girl, her mother, also named Madonna Louise, died of cancer when the younger Madonna was just six years old. Young Madonna's father remarried. There were father issues, stepmother issues, broad family issues, school issues, Catholicism issues. Young Madonna gets a dance scholarship. ship to the University of Michigan but bounces after five semesters and heads off to New York City.

She takes a bunch of dance classes, writes a bunch of songs, and meets a bunch of guys, maybe not in that order. Those guys, some of whom will become romantic interests and or musical collaborators, some of whom will remain in Madonna's artistic orbit for years, some of whom will not, none of whom, of course, will appear on the cover of the first Madonna record in 1983. Her self-titled debut. Could Madonna sing? yeah. Was Madonna primarily a singer? Was she clearly about to be super famous because of how well she sang? Maybe Madonna get super famous without MTV. Maybe not. Either way, if I can use the popular cultural construction of Mount Rushmore, Madonna is on the Mount Rushmore of MTV-born 80s pop stars,

along with Michael Jackson, Prince, and Bruce Springsteen, maybe. Springsteen's Glory Days video is formative for me. The Glory Days video taught me what nostalgia was. Actually, in the Rolling Stone cover story, Madonna is asked, I hope tactfully, how she managed to project, quote, seething sexuality and, quote, more effectively than most 80s pop stars. And she said, I think that has to do with them not being in touch with that aspect of their personality. They say, well, I have to do a video now and a pop star has to come on sexually. So how do I do that?

Instead of being in touch with that part of themselves to begin with. I've been in touch with that aspect of my personality since I was five. Don't worry about it. What I knew when I was five and transfixed by the lady with a floppy hat with a giant bow on it in a borderline video was that there was something winsome, something workman-like, something profoundly human about the way this lady sang the word way. Madonna's greatest hits, of which there are several dozen, are so ingrained in me, and I think so ingrained in everyone that I fixate now in these granular details.

She is the solar system. Every individual word she sings is a new planet to explore. Highest compliment I can pay to the first Madonna album. I was driving around last weekend trying to find an open Waffle House on the 4th of July. I do not recommend this. I had a starving 10-year-old boy and his starving 7-year-old brother in the back of the minivan. I'm starving to. We can't find an open Waffle House.

And I'm playing the first Madonna album. and I'm very sensitive in this moment to what a terrible headspace I'm in and how this may alter my perception of the first Madonna album. But no, the Madonna song, Holiday, even in this very stressful context, still feels to me like a holiday. I can still appreciate. I can still fixate on the way she sings the words it would be.

This tends to jump out at me more in live versions. Super tiny, but to me, very striking vocal hitches like this as I get older and a little more analytical about it, I'd wonder, is that an accent thing? Is that Michigan? Is that transplanted New Yorker? Is that an early Sterling of her fake English accent? But no, I think it's just effort.

It's just incomprehensibly hard work. When you listen to early Madonna, imagine her singing while bench pressing 225 pounds. It's two 45 pound weights on each side plus the bar. Three sets at 25 reps. She's got no spotter. No one else in the gym. It's a sexy gym, if you need it to be. Was Equinox around at this time? You're in charge of the details. The point is that Madonna was never the best singer or the best dancer. Madonna, quite famously, would later say explicitly that she wasn't the best singer or the best dancer. She just worked harder. She worked smarter. She knew how to get attention. And more importantly, she knew how to keep it. Fast forward five years or so, and she's a megastar. Millions of records sold, millions of gallons of ink deployed. to both celebrate and disparage her,

millions of cringe-worthy controversies. And here we have Madonna, triumphant, on Like a Prayer, delivering what for my money is the most thrilling 20 seconds or so in the 80s pop canon. As you may recall at this point in the Like a Prayer video, Madonna is dancing in a field of burning crosses. She never promised you that you would like what she did to keep your attention. But listen to this shit, man.

Okay, so the choir's doing. a lot of the heavy lifting there. The burning crosses are doing much of the rest of the heavy lifting there, but Madonna's controlling all of it. Her control is absolute. Her power is absolute. Now it's 1990. I already forget how old Madonna is at this point. Doesn't matter. She feels immortal. She feels inevitable. Mariah Carey's first album is out. Whitney Houston's third album is out. Nirvana's Nevermind will be out in a year or so. None of that matters either. The 90s is any sort of distinct cultural monolith isn't a threat to her. This isn't a person with competition. This isn't a person who acknowledges the cultural divide between one decade and another. Madonna's got

the Dick Tracy movie going. It's fine. Madonna's got her soundtrack to the Dick Tracy movie going. Most of it is what Madonna's mostly got going in 1990 is Vogue, which will sell her a couple million more records and burn through a couple million more barrels of ink. As you may recall at this point in the video, Madonna is singing while wearing a see-through top blouse. I'm just gonna call it a blouse. I'm out of my element. Keeping your attention though, ain't she? Madonna has a quietly excellent facility with backup singers,

an underrated rapport with her backup singers. But yeah, let's talk about escaping the pain of life that you know. Madonna co-wrote and co-produced Vogue with Shep Pettibone, the DJ and songwriter and producer who'd already done a ton of Madonna remixes. He did the single mix of Like a Prayer. He co-produced causing a commotion, a couple big remixes of Express Yourself, et cetera. He and Madonna had a rapport too.

So now the rest of the I'm Breathless album is mostly in the can, but Madonna and Shep are working on a song together, and he works up the initial track. It's a disco-y house sort of deal, and she starts writing lyrics, and he further molds the track around those lyrics, and she asks him if it's cool if she calls a song Vogue. And much later, Shep will point out that in this moment,

Vogueing, at least in underground dance culture, is almost over. The moment has almost passed, but Madonna's into it, so fine. They have a $5,000 budget, which is a shoestring budget, especially for a song, This Lush, and Madonna records her vocals in the basement studio of somebody's apartment on 56th Street in Manhattan, and Madonna's label flips out when they hear it, and they want to get Vogue out fast, and the fastest and most prominent way to do that is to slap it on the end of this Dick Tracy soundtrack situation. All of that is, What is vexing to people already familiar with vogue in culture is the reality that for most people, Vogue, the song, will be the first time those people have ever heard of Vogueing the dance style,

voging the lifestyle, really. Of course it makes a difference. Back in 2013, the journalist Julianne Escobito Shepard wrote a really fantastic history of Vogueing, of uptown ballroom culture for the Red Bull Music Academy. Really, Julianne's writing about the past, present, and future of Vogueing. This culture long predates Madonna. This culture has long since survived, Madonna. The early dragballs took place in Harlem and developed throughout the 80s.

Vogueing as a dance style was inspired in large part by Vogue, the magazine, the ornate and regal and often stiff posing of the models in the magazine. The Vogueers themselves overwhelmingly were black, were Latino, were gay, were transgender, were gathered there to a certain. and to celebrate themselves because it wasn't possible, it wasn't safe to assert or to celebrate themselves anywhere else. Overwhelmingly, they were poor. They were powerless, culturally, and often otherwise.

They were often in danger just walking down the street. But here, in the ballroom, they could be safe. Here, they could win literal physical giant trophies. Here, they could be stars. All of which is made clear in the classic 1991 documentary, Paris is Burning, directed by Jenny Livingston, which features some of the most shockingly beautiful dancing, the most startling physical movement you'll ever see in your life. And those dancers, thanks in a large part to this movie, are now rightfully, historically, the biggest names invoking in ballroom culture, Willie Ninja, Pepper LeBesia, the language, the lexicon of Paris is burning. You know it now, you've heard it. It's long been absorbed into corny mainstream culture, realness, reading. shade. And whoever you are listening to this, I suspect you know enough to know that those words likely mean something very different to you than they meant to the originators, because this is not

just a dance culture. This is not just about culture. These are people who have organized into houses, into families, because often, because of who they are or who they want to be, they've lost touch with their biological families. They've left or been banished from their own houses. The culture, the style. All these people create together is transcendent because it has to be. And it does, of course, transcend. It's destined in some modest way to cross over to the mainstream. In 1989, at the Rosalind Theater in Midtown Manhattan, the New York City nightlife icon Suzanne Barsh throws the first love ball, a glitzy, high-end celebrity-stuffed Vogue ball for charity. It raises $400,000 for AIDS research. The legend, at least, is that Madonna is there.

The legend, at least, is that this is where Madonna encounters vogueing for the first time. The rest is history. The question is, whose history? Rewatching Paris is burning now. It's challenging in places to not think about Madonna, not get a little uncomfortable with the just position of Madonna and these people on screen. One of this movie's main characters is Venus Extravaganza, a transgender performer who talks about how she started dressing as a woman when she was 13, 14 years old, and soon there. After, she ran away from her biological family so she wouldn't embarrass them. She says, I guess that's why I want my sex change to make myself complete.

She talks about hustling in New York to make her money, the slurs, the physical threats. She talks about wanting to be a model, about wanting to be a complete woman. Later in the movie, there's a beautiful shot of Venus at the edge of a New York City pier at sunset, and she's leaning on a railing next to a giant 80s boombox. Somebody lights her cigarette. And that's when someone else in the film starts talking about finding out that Venus was murdered and having to tell Venus's biological family that Venus was murdered. This, to me, is the most striking thing Venus says in Paris's burning.

I would like to be as spoiled with rich, white girl. They get what they want whenever they want. And they don't have to really struggle with finances and nice things and nice clothes. and they don't have to have that as a problem. Not to say that Venus is describing Madonna there, but what she's describing sounds an awful lot like material girl, like Madonna's character, her persona, her perspective and material girl. Now Madonna's video for Vogue co-stars or dancers,

among them Louise Camacho and Jose Gutierrez from the House of Extravaganza. Madonna never pretended that she invented Vogueing, or that she single-handedly popularized, Vogue, or that she was the best at Vogueing. Her dancers, really, are arguably the true stars of the Vogue video, and arguably the true stars of the Blonde Ambition World Tour she launched in 1990, and arguably the true stars of Truth or Dare, the documentary about that tour that hit theaters, yes, theaters in 1991. But of course, Vogue antagonized people. And in particular, antagonized people close to ballroom culture. Intagonizing people is kind of Madonna's whole

thing. So in 2009, the experimental house producer Terry Tamillitz, under the alias DJ Sprinkles, released an album called Midtown 120 Blues, which includes a song called Baller, parentheses, Madonna Free Zone, and parentheses. The track itself is mostly instrumental until a brief and pointed sort of manifesto at the end. This record's hard to find, legally now, a lot of heavy reverb on the vocals. I'm just going to read this to you. When Madonna came out with her hit Vogue, you knew it was over. She'd taken a very specifically queer, transgender, Latino, and African-American phenomenon, and totally erased that context with lyrics about how it makes no difference if you're black or white,

if you're a boy or a girl. Madonna was taking in tons of money, while the queen, who actually taught her how to Vogue, was sitting in a table in front of me, broke. So if anyone requested Vogue or any other Madonna track, I just told them, No, this is a Madonna-free zone. And as long as I'm DJing, you will not be allowed to vogue to the decontextualized, reified, corporatized, liberalized, neutralized, asexualized, re-genderized pop reflection of this dance floor's reality.

Madonna, meanwhile, kept on surviving, because surviving is kind of Madonna's whole thing. In 2016, she said, people say I'm controversial, but I think the most controversial thing I have ever done is to stick around. She kept trying, of course, but she never did become a big movie star, though. Midway through Vogue, she offers a sort of syllabus to us clueless 90s kids as to the classic Hollywood glamour to which she aspired. The irony being, is this irony? Either way, I would argue that she never got more glamorous. Madonna never looked better.

on a screen than she did in the video for Vogue. Or more broadly, she peaked as an actress in her music video collaborations with David Fincher. There's Express Yourself, that's the Metropolis homage. There's O Father, that's the one with a shot of Madonna's mother lying in the casket with her lips sewed shut. And there's Bad Girl. That's the one with Christopher Walkin in a tree.

Open question whether Madonna is listing all of these famous, beautiful, graceful people in Vogue because she wants you to emulate them, or she just wants you to compare her to them. Either way, talking about them, rapping about them, maybe, is as close as she got to joining them. Quick 90s, Madonna highlight reel. Her best album is Ray of Light.

Her second best song is The Power of Goodbye. Her best ballad is rain. Her second best ballad is that this used to be my playground. Her best movie is a league of their own, with apologies to Evita. If you're into Evita, Madonna singing, you must love me. the appeal. Trust me. Her best video that made my parents uncomfortable is justify my love. Her best

song, length, corny, oral sex joke is where life begins. Her best book is, well, it's the sex book. Her best romantic relationship was with Dennis Rodman. Her Bjorkist line reading is on the song Bedtime Story, which Bjork co-wrote, and frankly nothing in the whole entire world could be clearer than the fact that Bjork is responsible for this. The pure uncut Bjorkness of Madonna singing this still freaks me out. Every single time I hear it, the video freaks me out, too. Actually, with apologies to a league of their own, the best Madonna movie of her whole career, and the second best thing she did in the 90s overall is Truth or Dare, the concert documentary from 1991,

directed by Alec Cashishian. Truth or Dare includes a scene in which Madonna simulates oral sex with a glass bottle. Truth or Dare features Kevin Costner, referring to Madonna's concert as neat. Truthordair includes a scene in which Madonna rolls around on her mother's grave while her brother looks on awkwardly from the trees. Truthordair luxuriates in much super awkward interaction with Madonna's crew of backup dancers. Truthordair addresses such topics as gay pride and the AIDS crisis and sexual. assault in Antonio Banderas' marriage. Are all of these topics handled tactfully? I will say this. The best scene and truth or dare co-stars our old pal, Warren Beatty. So halfway through her giant

world tour, Madonna loses her voice. So she goes to the doctor and the documentary crew goes with her. We get close-ups of the doctor, getting close-ups of Madonna's throat. And there's Warren Beatty, sexy grumpus, grumping it up in the corner. Did I mention he and Madonna are romantically involved? At this point, they are, I guess. No offense to Warren, but he's no Dennis Rodman. Anyway, Warren's got some takes. This is crazy. Nobody talks about this on film? Talks about what? The insanity of doing this all on a documentary. Well, this is a serious matter, your throat, yes? Why should I stop here?

They argue some more. Madonna's doctor asks her if she wants to discuss her throat in private. Warren finds that question very amusing. Do you want to talk at all off-camera? You have nothing to say. She doesn't want to live off-camera, much less talk. That's what it is. There's nothing to say off-camera.

Why would you say something if it's off-camera? What point is there existing? What is born in this moment is not the pop star documentary. Truth or Dare is mostly in black and white, the better to remind you of Bob Dylan's don't look back. What is born in this moment is not quite reality TV. Plenty of earlier examples. No, what is born in this moment is performative hatred of reality TV. Performative hatred of reality as a pop star experiences it. And yes, relentlessly publicly documents it. As with everything, Medea, has ever done or will ever do, this argument comes down to narrative and ownership and control. We have been told from the beginning that Madonna is obsessed with control, to the detriment, to sooner or later the exclusion of everyone around her. About that. I don't know how to deal on this show in this venue with Britney Spears.

I cannot locate the ideal, tactful, tonal center of an episode of this show about Britney Spears. Here in July 2021, the legal battle over her conservatorship has taken multiple profoundly ugly and dark turns. And it is clear that Brittany, one of the biggest pop stars of her generation, has had no control over her career, or for that matter, over her life for well over a decade. While I've been thinking about this just today, here comes Madonna on Instagram stories, wearing a Britney t-shirt with a text, give this woman her life back. slavery was abolished so long ago, et cetera. That's a hell of a way to put it, of course. But finding a hell of a way to put it is Madonna's whole thing. Madonna's argument is that there are worse things than being called a careerist and an opportunist and an appropriator and a ruthless control freak.

That has, in fact, been Madonna's argument now for almost 40 years. Control everything or everyone will control you. Our guest today is Karen Gans. pop music editor for the New York Times, invaluable voice of reason on the New York Times popcast, Madonna fan and Mets fan, my friend Karen Gans. Karen, thank you so much for being here. It is my pleasure, Rob.

I appreciate the voice of reason intro the best. Thank you. John Caramonica, are you listening? Oh, of course he's listening, and it's, yeah, it's a crucial function you provide. Is there any emotional overlap between rooting for Madonna and rooting for the Mets, by the way? Is there, what's the parallel?

A lot of music journalists are Mets fans. I'm not sure you can counter this, but a lot of New York Times journalists are also Mets fans. It's very strange. Karen, when did you truly become a Madonna fan? Was there a song? Was there a moment? This is a question I really can't answer,

and it's very frustrating. There are a couple of things in music in my life that I can't remember. I cannot, for the life of me, remember where I was or how I reacted when I learned that Kirk Hovein died. And all my high school, friends seem to have this memory. I'm sure I was physically with them. But I just like, I cannot access that memory. I just remember loving Madonna from a very early age. So her first album came out when I was around five, I presume, four or five. And I remember her being a part of my life. I

listened to a lot of top 40 radio as well as America's top 40. I remember her being ever present. But I remember the Vogue era very specifically because the song came out in March 1990. And my bat mitzvah was in May 1990. and it played a role. Yes. That song made an appearance during your body missed. It did. Well, so my best, I mean, now we're getting, I don't know how much you want to know about this. So my best friend at the time, her name was, perhaps still is, it was Elizabeth Lopicokelob.

She lived on my block. And we loved Madonna together. And her bot misfo was May 5th. Mine was May 6th. They were right on top of each other. She had a DJ. I had a band. The DJ played Vogue.

And we did some sort of prepared dance performance in front of, you know, like, you know, Like 100 people at this country club. This is not something that's really in my history, Rob. I'm not a dance performance kind of person. No, I had sensed that about you. Yeah. We did this. And then I can't remember much about it except being like nervous and it happened.

And then the next day at my bat mitzvah, we gave away casings as prizes for some things. And people got the vogue casingle at my bat mitzvah. Do you remember any aspect of the dance? Like, could you do it now if, if, required to? I have like a really sharp, weird memory of like getting out of my chair. Okay. And like walking to go do it. And that is the end. I'm sure it was very embarrassing. But keep in mind, you're talking about two 12-year-olds from Long Island who've never heard of ballroom culture. Right, right, right, yes. What a fascinating journey for us and the song and everything.

That is, that is beautiful. That is incredible. I'm curious about your perception of Madonna in the 90s specifically, as Nirvana is happening, as Mariah Carey is happening, later when when Brittany is happening. Do you think Madonna was already thought of as a veteran in the 90s? Like, was she in direct conversation or competition with the newest and biggest stars of the 90s? Or was she just doing her own thing? I think she was doing her own thing. I think, you know, the great thing about music in the 80s and the 90s to me is that everything was happening on its own tracks, but it was still, it all came together in conversation in a top 40 kind of a way. Yeah. You know, like we were siloed, but we weren't.

completely separated. So I mean, but when you think about Mariah, she's a more of an R&B diva track. You know, I felt like grunge and everything was happening sort of on another planet, but Madonna was sort of just like hovering in an MTV awards kind of way amongst all of them. But the 90s was such a weird time for her because, well, first of all, she put out three studio albums in the 90s, right? And Vogue didn't appear on any of those. It appears on the soundtrack to the Dick Tracy movie. The Dick Tracy soundtrack. It's so bizarre. It's so jarring. You know, the album she put out in the 90s are weird and kind of concept-y. You know, she's coming off of like just the pop hits of the 80s.

And so what do we have? We have erotica in 92, bedtime stories, 94. And then if you include the soundtracks, I guess. So I'm breathless in 90, and then you have the Evita soundtrack in 96. I don't really count them. And then you finally get to Ray of Light in 98. That's my favorite. You haven't even asked me yet, but that is my favorite.

But no, it's felt like the 90s, like Madonna. was really just like, that's the era where I think the reputation for the constant reinvention really emerges because it wasn't a total reinvention on those 80s albums. She was just making very good pop music. Yeah. What is her worst album of the 90s? Do you prefer one to the other? Like you said, Ray of Light is the best. Is there a worst per se? I prefer erotica just because it's a bit more upbeat and weird. Bedtime stories is a little quieter, but it does have the Bjork co-write. The Bjork co-write is the key. She sounds so much like Bjork on that song.

It really is fascinating to me. It's jarring every time I hear it. I think it's Bjork for a second, which is probably the desired effect from Madonna's perspective. Extremely weird. And there are some amazing songs on that album. I feel like as a concept, I like Erotica. I like the button she was pushing with the sex book and stuff.

I remember some kid had it on the bus and we're all looking at it. Like, what is this? You could get in a lot of trouble for that, I imagine, and bringing that on the bus. Yeah, that's dangerous. That was illicit, yes. Yeah, the vanilla ice material, especially, I suppose. You've been an editor at Rolling Stone, and it's been, you know, you love,

you know a ton about rock or alternative rock or whatever. What do you think the rock and world world's perception of Madonna was and how it's changed over the course of her career? Like, I always thought she was bigger than the rockism or popism debate. Like, she was exempt from that? Like, does she command respect even from people? inclined to disrespect other pop stars? I don't know.

I mean, it just felt like she was always sort of hovering in a world encompassing and beyond rock music as well. I feel like it was sort of like punk to say you liked Madonna in a way. You know, like you weren't going to say I'm a Tiffany fan. You might, you know, but there was something about Madonna, the audaciousness, the pressing of buttons that is, you know, quintessentially when people say you're rock and roll you're a rock star, they mean crossing boundaries, you know, trying to be subversive. That was that was in her DNA.

Yeah, Sonic Youth seemed to think it was punk rock to say that they liked Madonna, or at least we're interacting with Madonna. For sure. When Madonna played the Super Bowl in 2012, she started with Vogue. Like, to your mind, is Vogue her signature song if you had to choose just one? Yeah, it's that or like a prayer. Right. Because, you know, those are the songs that are shape-shifting, big definitive statements, move the culture, caused a controversy in some way. Right, right.

There's just more to grab. I'm onto with them. I mean, I have other favorites. But yeah, when you hear the synthi string intro of Vogue, you know exactly what it is. You can hear those piano chords from anywhere and you know exactly what is happening and what it is. As you said, when you were doing the dance routine to Vogue, you didn't really know anything about Ballroom. I'm going to be thinking about that for the rest of the day, by the way. That's just a fantastic. There's no video. There's no documentation of this event at all. I haven't been in touch with Elizabeth Lopikikilo since like 1995.

But if anyone listening can track this woman down. We were best friends on Long Island where we grew up. And I'm sure somewhere there is a tape of this. Did you bond over Madonna? Was that sort of central to your friendship at the time? That was part of it. You know, it's interesting because I was a very tomboyish kid and I played sports all the time. And she was sort of my like girly girlfriend.

Yeah. And it was a lot of like Cindy Loper, Madonna kind of stuff in our lives. Cindy Lopper is an interesting sort of parallel. Like I was listening to Material Girl the other day. And it struck me as a Cindy Lopper song. Like when you look at like critics, polls and stuff, there was a time when Madonna and Cindy Lopper were sort of neck and neck and then sort of they diverged, obviously, on a different paths.

Like, where you were big and a Cindy Lopper and she's so unusual as well? I was, but that was a time, you know, when you felt like you had to choose between Hull and Nirvana, I felt forced to choose between Cindy and Madonna and I chose Madonna. And then I grew up and it was like, well, that's a ridiculous dichotomy. Who forced me to do that? Cindy's, you know, an amazing artist in her own right and completely different. But yeah, there was that moment where it felt like, you know, you had to choose. Yeah.

Vogue, the song obviously brought Vogueing to the mainstream. Like, did this, when you started learning about ballroom culture, did this song strike you then at the time or does it strike you now as appropriation? Like on the Madonna scale anyway, like how respectful or tactful was she about her version of Vogueing versus the roots of Voking? It's an interesting question. It's super tough to judge this stuff against the standards of today. I mean, people fall on either side of this. I think that it was an homage and appreciation. I could definitely see how people could be rankled and say that it was a little bit of fevery.

But I thought I found it to be a respectful, you know, loving tribute. And it brought something that certainly wasn't going to reach mainstream white culture at that moment in the suburbs, you know, to a place where it could, it never would have gotten without her. Right. In that moment, it might have gotten there now. Right. You know, I feel like with a lot of Madonna's stuff, you can always add the appropriation conversation. But I think a lot of her early life in New York came from a genuine love of going out dancing.

A lot of this stuff in her life has always come from her dancers. The House of Extravaganza, Jose and Lewis introduced this to her. She's always had a passion for the culture bubbling up from young black and Latino artists. She's also had a passion for young black and Latino boyfriends. I think that was probably part of it. But the idea of the song, the sort of the escape from the dance floor, that's the subject of some of her best, that fuels some of her best creativity. And I think that she saw that and identified with that in ballroom and found a way to bring it to herself without it seeming not genuine. Right.

Watching Truth or Dare again recently, I was struck by her relationship with her dancers and just how endearing it was sometimes and also how kind of cringy it was when she starts talking about being a den mother and like she starts crossing lines and it gets uncomfortable. Bullet sort of classic Madonna in that sense. But you can tell that she's genuinely trying to connect with them, you know, even when she shouldn't or in ways that she shouldn't necessarily. Definitely. And I don't know if you've seen Strike a Pose, which is a documentary about the dancers on that tour. It's a wonderful document of that time and particularly about how her life and their

lives intersected with the AIDS crisis and just talking about gay culture openly. But also keep in mind the three of the dancers sued her after the documentary, saying that she had betrayed their trust with what she did with the footage and they settled. I'm not sure where they landed on that. Right. You're someone who enjoys the real housewives. And so I was curious what you think about truth or dare's relationship with modern reality TV. Like did Madonna inadvertently help write the Bravo playbook? I love that connection, Rob. You're really, you're singing my song here because the real housewives are really my passion. I mean, I think she made the idea of living life on camera, you know, uninhibitedly, something that we, that we identify. I mean, like,

I watch the Housewives. You can tell which moments are a little more scripted and which are a little more original. And I think that after time, people do get used to living their lives on camera. But she certainly pioneered it. I mean, all these other music documentaries that came after it, they are, to me, pale homages. I was going to ask, you know, you're constantly talking on popcast, you know, it's Taylor or it's Demi or it's Ariana or whatever. Like, has anybody come close to their own version of truth or dare. Not yet. Not in the film world.

I mean, all those other docs that you mentioned, they've been very interesting in their own way, but I don't know that they've hit with the exact same power. The Demi one is a little bit different because she's revealing things about her death-defying drug overdose. When I watched that, my jaw was on the floor, and I was like, oh, my God. And I am a big, big fan of Katie Perry's part of me.

Me too, me too. That's maybe the one that's closest for me. I talk all the time about the moment when she's smiling and she's going up the hydraulic lift. And like that's a moment where I don't know if it's real. I don't know if it's contrived. As you say, like it's hard to tell. But that's like the closest I think anybody's gotten. It's like a really genuinely striking sort of truth or dare type pop star.

I literally like I feel something when you're just like even thinking about the moment, thinking about the changed expression on her face where it's like, oh my God, to be a pop star on this level, you are part human, part machine. Right. And you're turning on the machine part and lifting up the hydraulic lift and going to entertain all these people. It's fascinating. Yeah. Just broadly, is there any pop star since Madonna that has approached for you the greatness or the grandeur of Madonna?

Like, is anybody even close overall? I mean, it's really hard to compare because she's had like a four-decade stretch, you know, like, and she's been able to write the entire story herself. It's like it's very hard to talk about a rock band without thinking about the Beatles because they did it all first. Madonna really did do it all first by virtual being there first, but also being innovative and creative and wanting to be different and try different things. So there have been flashes in people's careers where I've been like, oh my God, I mean, like Lady Gaga's first album and a half, you know, to two albums. Like she might be able to pull it off.

And then she sort of changed direction. You know, Billy is interesting too. But a large part of the Madonna story is autorship. You know, like she has a writing credit on every single song. She's had her finger in the pie of every day. the tours, the choreography, the costumes, everything. And it's hard to find a star who wants to be that involved in all-encompassing in such a very thorough way.

Yeah. Reading all the old press, 80s press, about her being a control freak and a careerist, like the Times has done such incredible reporting about Britney Spears, you know, about our conservatorship, about what certainly looks like Britney's total lack of control over her own career, over everything. You know, Madonna for decades was tarred as this ruthless, heartless careerist, Control Freak. Like, does the Britney Spear situation prove that a pop star of that size, like, has to fight that hard just to stay in control of her own life?

I think that the fight aspect of it is accurate. Yeah. You know, Brittany as a performer was a very different kind of artist than Madonna. So on that level, it's different to me because, you know, I mean, I think she was happy to make music. But she and she was certainly involved with the choosing of the songs and stuff, but she wasn't really a writing powerhouse. But in terms of, like, not having control, having to fight, massages. you know, definitely inherent in all of this. I mean, that rings true.

Yeah. I really enjoy when you tweet about how you wish Madonna would stop tweeting, which you do quite frequently. Is it a fundamental part of loving Madonna just being constantly exasperated by Madonna, especially now? It's a new development. I was talking about this with some Madonna loving friends the other day. You know, I spent like a long time just, you know,

uninhibitively loving everything that Madonna did. And, you know, sometimes musically I would fall on, you know, I am a critic too. I'd fall on a critical side of some things. But her embrace of social media over the past few years has definitely taken a turn for the worst. And she travels with like a very robust social media team. They're making, you know, Instagram, produced Instagram videos for all the time. And I feel like she's missing the point of Instagram, which is like, you do want to

see behind the curtain. Her, yes. You want some spontaneity. You don't want to be so fully rehearsed. And that's part of the control freaky thing, right? It's hard for her to let it go. But yes, her tweets and her Instagram posts are a little cringy for me. And I do have concerns that she's undoing the work of her amazing legacy.

And I will be devastated if in the next few years that is ultimately the direction she has because there's so much more work for her to do. You know, Madame X, the album, not my favorite. Madame X, the stage show, though. I don't know if you got the stage show. I did not. No, I guess I missed out there. Yeah, it was good. It was great.

I loved it. You know, people were torn. But it was she did a cabaret. You saw her in a completely new environment. and she interacted with the audience with some of it can. Sure. But it was a successful reinvention in her 60s. She still has it.

She can still do it. Madonna, if you're listening, you're not. You can do it. You're not. Sorry, but she's not. Yeah. But if you just lay off the Instagram, we're going to be good. That's all my ass.

Good advice for us all. How many times have you seen Madonna in concert, Karen? Oh, man. We'd have to pause for me to add it up. But the first time I saw her was a round world tour. then Reinvention Tour and then Confessions Tour twice Okay

What was the one after that? The one after that twice And then Rebel Heart three times And then Madamex twice We're up to 11 And then on top of that At the Roseland

To promote her albums, that's 12 At the Roxy to promote her album That's 13 At Pride, that's 14 And then the other day At the Boon Boom Boom, that's 15 Wow And how many times was Vogue the highlight of those?

Did she play Vogue at all of those shows? She didn't do them on every tour. I mean, that's the only thing about her. She really does not like to retread the past. I was reading up a little bit about the song when I was thinking about talking to you. And it was like all the producers being like, she refuses to repeat herself. She really does like to keep her eyes on the future. I think I saw her do it for the first time at Yankee Stadium on the tour whose name is escaping me.

Yeah. Oh, it was like the MDNA tour. and I completely freaked out. I might have blacked out. Right. Are you able with Vogue to separate like your very personal specific memories from like your critic brain at all?

Like can you assess this as a piece of music like as a critic or is it just totally about, you know, being a kid again? Yeah. It's an exceptional song. I mean, it just really does make you want to go dance even if you're not a dancer like myself. Yeah. It's powerful.

Yeah. Thank you so much, Karen. This has been wonderful. Oh, thank you, Rob. Appreciate it. Thanks very much to our guest this week, Karen Gans. Thanks as always to our producers, Justin Sales and Isaac Lee. And thanks very much to you for listening.

And now, without further ado, here's Madonna with Vogue. We'll see you next week.