60 Songs That Explain the '90s - “Mr. Brightside”—The Killers

Episode Date: October 2, 2024

Join us as Rob kicks off a new era of '60 Songs' with a deep dive into the 2000s anthem “Mr. Brightside” by the Killers. Of course, along the way, Rob brings the head-scratching tangents that you know and love. New decade, same Rob. What are you waiting for? Later, Rob is joined by The Ringer’s Chris Ryan to discuss more about the magic of “Mr. Brightside.” Host: Rob Harvilla Guest: Chris Ryan Producers: Jonathan Kermah and Justin Sayles Additional Production Support: Olivia Crerie Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

A restaurant's best dishes tell stories. Their flavors embed themselves in our memory like song lyrics or lines from a movie. So much so that a little slice of a restaurant's story can become part of our own. I'm Danny Chow and this is ShiftMeal, a new video podcast from the Ringer where we're sharing a bite and chopping it up with chefs and restaurant people during their off hours. All episodes of Shift Meal are out now on Ringer food. What you are about to hear is a subverted rhyme. That is the technical term for this lyrical, for this poetic device. Subverted rhyme.

But no, no, this will not suffice. We need a new name. We need a better, a more precise way to articulate, to encapsulate the glory, the loose wit, the ecstatic subterfuge of the subvered rhyme that defined a generation. Mr. Brightside by the Killers, a rock band from Las Vegas. Yeah, what we need to do right now is invent a whole new technical term for the

lyrical, for the poetic device, where, via the context of the song and the rhyme scheme, you make the listener think that you are about to sing the word, dick and then you don't you don't sing the word dick you sing another word instead oh deception oh you poor bamboozled listener you pervert you thought she was gonna touch his oh ho ho but no you are mistaken the dick was merely implied the dick has been withheld the phantom dick no that's not a good name for this concept at all. Who said that? Shakespeare. Shakespeare never did it. Shakespeare, to my knowledge, never deployed the phantom dick. I checked. I'm so bummed. It's growing on me, the phantom dick. The term. There's the part in Hamlet, right? The Shakespeare play Hamlet, where Hamlet's talking to Ophelia,

and he says, that's a fair thought to lie between maids' legs. And Ophelia says, what is my lord and hamlet says nothing turns out that's a super crude pun see because nothing the word nothing was elizabethan slang for you know lady parts and i didn't know that though now i'm thinking about how shakespeare has another play called much ado about nothing wow not a phantom dick though but look out alice cooper beloved shock rocker alice cooper the shakespeare of detroit On his 1973 album, Muscle of Love, that's his dick, on a song called Working Up a Sweat, that's because he's messing around with his dick, Alice Cooper gets the job done. Stupendous, the Midwest is undefeated.

Let me explain. Let me try to explain my thought process here, although thought process is pushing it. Let me tell you how I spent my summer vacation. Okay, I am listening to Mr. Brightside, the bonkers pop crossover smash, Mr. Brightside, from 2004's Hot Fuss, the debut album from Las Vegas rock band The Killers, the Shakespeare's of Las Vegas, Mr. Brightside, which has two billion streams on Spotify. Yo, were you up on this? 2 billion, 226,000, 621,509 streams, to be precise, when I checked it just now. An enduring cultural institution, Mr. Brightside. And so I get to the part in Mr. Brightside when this happens.

And I think to myself, I wonder if that's the first time in Popper. music history where somebody's done the thing where you think he's about to sing the word dick and then he doesn't. That's what I thought. That's what passes for analysis around here. And forget pop music. Forget singing it. What about literature? What about the oral tradition? Let's broaden our search for the phantom dick to the whole of human cultural endeavor. And then I did it. Let me tell you the very first thing I did. I did the obvious, the professional the necessary thing. I googled the phrase

horny old poems. In quotes, in private browsing, on my wife's computer. Just a precaution. And oh, what a raucous Wednesday afternoon I had then, my friends, drinking my tea and perusing various,

horny old poems. Naturally, I saw it the oldest and or horniest poems amongst them. I don't ordinarily pronounce the word poems this way, but it pleases me to do so now. Actually, do you know what happened? Can I tell you something? Can I make an announcement? When I googled the phrase, horny old poems, in quotes, I got no results. I got zero results. Do you know what this means? It means I invented the phrase horny old poems, me, so I take horny old poems out of quotes. And I spend a raucous Wednesday afternoon reading, for example, the Pablo Neruda poem,

Carnal Apple, Woman-filled Burning Moon, where he writes, kiss by kiss I cover your tiny infinity, your margins, your rivers, your diminutive villages, and a genital fire transformed by delight, slips through the narrow channels of blood to precipitate a nocturnal carnation. That's his dick. The nocturnal carnation is his dick. Okay, great. Not a phantom dick, though. Clearly, the dick is present and accounted for. So, too, in the case of John Wilmot, Earl of Rochester, the 17th century libertine and poet. In his poem, The Imperfect Enjoyment, John Wilmot, Earl of Rochester refers to the all-dissolving Thunderbolt below. That's his dick, basically.

Got it. Fantastic. I found a Walt Whitman poem entitled, Whoever you are holding me now in hand. Yep, that's his dick. We don't even need to read that one necessarily. Splendid. I got to say, interpreting poems is super easy. I am so good at this.

I don't mind telling you. T.S. Eliot once said, genuine poetry can communicate before it is understood. End quote, skill issue. I don't have that problem. I understand all poetry immediately. there is no gap between communication and understanding where I'm concerned. I can't relate to T.S. Eliot at all. This is easy.

This is light work. You give me any poem by anybody, and I'll tell you what it's about right away. M.F. Doom. The immortal M.F. Doom. The Romeo of Long Island. The Iago of Monster Island. The metal-faced prospero. The beast with a billion.

backs from the 2005 album The Mouse and the Mask by Danger Doom, a collaboration between MF Doom and the producer Danger Mouse. This song is called No Names. You think you're slick, your mic a whisper as a few good men set sides

to link with a chick. You have to find a new hen fight to drink your lick. Ten years later, see how ends I to shrink a wallet. Marvelous. MF. Doom, it will not surprise you to learn as a master of the inverted rhyme while we're here from the rapturously acclaimed 2004 album mad villainy by mad villain

the beloved duo of mf doom and madlib this song is called great day last wish i wish i had two more wishes and i wish they fixed the door to the matrix is mad gritches spit so many verses some time i draw twitches one thing this party can use is more blues Excellent. All sorts of phantoms in the uvera of MF Doom. Yes? Give me one more. Let us dig deep and conjure up just one more phantom dick. Come on, Eminem. There is no way that Eminem has never done this. Am I right? I deserved that. You didn't deserve that. You didn't deserve that. but I did. That song's called Almost Famous. That's off the Eminem album Recovery from 2010. Dix too short a word for my dick. I don't want to talk about Eminem actually. Never mind. I emailed famous poets in my quest for the Phantom Dick. I am fortunate enough to know semi-professionally,

a couple beloved, published, extensive bibliography, MacArthur Genius Grant, New Yorker contributor type poets. And they are misfortunate enough to know me. I email these guys. And I'm like, hey, I know we haven't spoken in like six months or maybe 12 years,

but you know in Mr. Brightside by the killers where you think he's going to sing and she's touching his dick, but then he doesn't, is there a famous old poem like that? Can you imagine receiving this email from me? Can you imagine the offense you would take to such an email? Who is this clown?

Doesn't he have a real job? And they wrote back the fantastic poet Michael Robbins, author of several poetry books, including Alien versus Predator and the Second Sex. He's like, yeah, that's called a subverted rhyme. I talk about that in my book, Equipment for Living. Here's an academic article I found about mind rhyme. That's tremendously kind of you, but don't encourage me.

Anif Abdur-Akeb, blockbuster bestselling critic and poet and author, literally the mayor of Columbus, Ohio. I send this stupid email to Hanif, and Henif's like, I've been thinking about this for a few days. And I'll let you know. Stop thinking about this. Obama reads your books. Somebody painted a whole ass mural of you downtown. This is fathoms beneath you. Don't get involved.

I get coffee with this rad dude, Scott Levin. an English professor at Louisiana Tech. He teaches a class called rock pop and the poetic tradition. He plays Pearl Jam songs for college kids. It's awesome. And I look up the lyrics to Mr. Brightside on my phone, and I hand it to him. And I'm like, do you know if there's a famous poem like this? And later, Scott sends me an email and he says,

I keep thinking about Shakespeare when Hamlet says nothing, blah, blah, blah, blah. Thank you. That's incredibly thoughtful. but you are literally a professor. Maybe don't hang out with me. It will relieve you to hear that thanks to the good people at tvtropes.org, I did find one more,

phantom dick. Hold on to your butts. Bowling for soup. Bowling for soup. I sincerely haven't heard that name in you. wacky affable early 2000s pop punk hit makers bowling for soup these hits include girl all the bad guys want in 1985 the bards of wichita falls texas the most ska-esque non-sca band that has ever existed i know you know what i mean think of them as the kids bop fountains of wane or don't don't actually that's rude from their

2006 album The Great Burrito Extortion Case. Sure, that was Bowling for Soup with a song called 99 biker friends. And that is a legit phantom dick. And what in blazes are we doing here?

Really? Why is any of this happening? Of all the songs released in the first decade of the 21st century, this span from 2000 to 2009, aka the 2000s, a.k.a. the a. I hate that term. The aughts. I don't know why, but I do. I'm not saying the aughts

over and over and over again. We're just calling it the 2000s. Okay. Of all the hit songs released in the 2000s, very few have racked up north of two billion plays on your friendly neighborhood streaming service. Yellow by Coldplay. That's another one. That's got two billion. That song's about his dick. No, it's not. Probably it's not. And also, of course, there's Lose Yourself by Eminem, but I don't want to talk about him. And anyway, only one of those songs makes the listener think she's touching his dick, but then she doesn't. My name is Rob Harvilla. This is the first episode of 60 songs that explain the 90s, colon the 2006, excuse me. Ordinarily, it is a bad sign when you can't say the name of your podcast without cracking up. But in this case, it's fine.

This is the first episode of 60 songs that explain the 90s, colon the 2000s, a podcast that previously covered songs from the 90s, but now it doesn't. We're doing the 2000s now. And this week we are discussing Mr. Brightside by the killers. What you need to know, as we transition elegantly from the 1990s to the 2000s is that at some point somewhere in there rock died rock and roll died i don't recall that happening the death of rock and roll i certainly recall being informed that rock had died but now it was back but i missed the death itself it's like if you lived in judea but you were out of town the weekend of the crucifixion and you came back on Monday and you were like, so did I miss anything around here?

And your friend was like, well, Jesus is back. And you were like, what? And see, it's odd, right? That I don't recall the exact moment Rock died. Because I have to say, at the time, as a mouth-breathing 90s teenager and as a somehow even dope year early 2000s young adult, I was paying very close attention to Rock, I thought. And, underst, unhealthy amount of attention animated by a disconcerting intensity, you might say. Rock, of course, flourished in the early 90s, Nirvana, Pearl Jam, Green Day, Varucosol, bu, blah, blah, blah. But when did Rock die precisely? What was the exact moment of Rock's death, roundabouts the turn of the century?

Do you want the glib answer or the real answer? It doesn't matter, actually, because they're basically the same answer. The glib answer is that rock and roll died in 1998 when Limp Biscuit released their unfathomably rude cover of faith by George Michael. The not glib answer is that rock and roll died when Limp Biscuit performed breakstuff at Woodstock 99, but I don't want to talk about that either. Quick question. Does Limp Biscuit have a Phantom Dick song? No. That Limp Biscuit song was called

Show Me What You Got from their album Nocturnal Carnation and the hot dog flavored water. No, wait, sorry, that's not right. I got that title wrong. Sorry, it's actually from their 1999 album Significant Other.

And just in case you found the production on that song to be a little murky, limp biscuit frontman, Fred Durst just said coming raw with no corrections saving all perfections for what I do with my erections

Fred Durst the Pablo Neruda of Jacksonville the red hat up top and the all dissolving thunderbolt below yeah no I'm afraid that Limbiscuit is all dick

no phantom hey forget about it because now it is September 2002 and Rock is back Rock had died but now back. You know how I know this? Because it says Rock is back exclamation point on the cover of Rolling Stone over a photo of no, not them. No, not them either. Guess again. Nope, sorry, not them. These are all great guesses, but no. Try one more time. One more guess. Yep, you got it. Yes, The Vines from Sydney, Australia, from their 2002 debut album, highly evolved.

That is their breakout hit, Get Free. I suspect that at some point, in the hopefully distant future, I will play you audio of the Vines performing that song on the late show at David Letterman, but not now. The Vines on Letterman are somehow both too glib and too heavy for this particular occasion. If you want to approximate the experience of the Letterman version of Get Free, just put on the studio version of Get Free and throw yourself down the stairs. Pretty good song, though, eh? Rock is back, exclamation point. And what a relief.

There is a feral and exuberant and yet dangerous quality to this, to this rock. A warm nostalgia, but also a cool immediacy. A hint of menace, but not, you know, actual menace. This rock makes you want to break stuff, but nobody actually breaks any stuff other than the guy from the vines. But never mind that now. Yes, the vines. The fourth band that you think of in September 2002 when you're thinking about how rock is back. The first three bands you think of being the strokes, the white stripes, and the hives.

Most probably in that order, but I might be a hives guy. Ultimately, I love the hives. The hives were on the cover of spin in 2004. And I have never forgotten a quote in that article from the bassist. Until 2013, when he retired for medical reasons, the bass player for the hives was named Dr. Matt Destruction, which is a phenomenal name for a bass player, first of all. And second of all, the spin reporter, the great Mark Spitz, is talking to Dr. Matt destruction. And Mark goes, are you an actual doctor?

And Dr. Matt Destruction goes, yes, of course. And Mark the spin reporter goes, well, if someone got hit by a taxi outside, could you save them? And Dr. Matt Destruction says, yes, with my bass guitar. And that's the coolest thing a bass player has ever said in a magazine. That's an Air Base Hall of Fame moment right there on the Hives 2000 breakout hit, Hate to Say I Told You So, a great baseline, a great song, a great man, a great physician. God bless Dr. Matt Destruction. Where did rock go while rock was dead?

Australia, evidently, and New York and Detroit and Sweden. Was there other less rock-like rock music while rock was dead? Sure. Sure. Do cold play count? No. What filled the cultural vacuum created by the death of rock? mostly teen pop and also Eminem complaining about teen pop.

What made Rock come back? We were bored, honestly. But anyway, rock is back. Around this time, early 2000s, I went to a local rock show in Columbus, Ohio. I forget who, I forget what club, I forget everything about this show, except that the opening act

was this rad, older punk rocker sort of dude playing solo with an acoustic guitar, strumming this acoustic guitar super aggressively. And he was pretty good. And in between every song, the guy would go, this is real rock and roll. I'm into real rock and roll. Not all this other bullshit.

I want bands like the strokes, the hives, the vines, the white stripes. That's real rock and roll. Rock is back. He gave this speech verbatim like six times in 20 minutes. Those bands in that order every time. He was very serious about this. And listen, I'm in my mid-20s at this point.

And musically speaking, I've been blatantly, shamelessly, aggressively marketed to my whole life. Every major new genre, every cultural uprising, every youth movement has been explicitly dictated to me, has been incepted into me by the TV, by the radio, by magazines, by people on stages. now you like grunge, now you like pop punk, now you like ska, now you like electronica. And every time I eat it up, I'm like, yes, yes, yes, thank you, yes. The marketing, the branding, the aggression, the corporate mandated vibe shift is not a new concept here in 2002. What's new is my vague awareness that the blatant, shameless, aggressive marketing is occurring. I was like, wow, we are really doing rock is back now, and we are doing it with these four bands, the strokes, the hives, the vines, the white stripes.

And that is that. I am hyper aware that this music is what's cool now. But what really interests me, historically, cool-wise, is the slightly uncool thing that tends to happen, let's say one or two years after the cool thing. So historically, right, as we move into the late 70s, punk rock is the cool thing. And so 76 and 77, we are introduced to the sex pistols, to the Ramones, to the clash, to the damned. But across 77, 78, 79, we get talking heads, we get the cars. We get Elvis Costello. We get Apex Blondie, the B-52s, the police, Devo.

We get rock that makes me feel like I'm in a video arcade in the mall, which is basically my favorite place to be between the ages of 5 and 15. We get, broadly speaking, new wave, which is like punk, sort of, but it's got more synthesizers, more pop frivolity, more stylized awkwardness, more nerds. Punk is, and somehow will forever be, the cool thing. New wave is the slightly uncool thing. And historically, the really cool stuff tends to sound just a little bit uncool. So now, in 2001 and 2002, all the magazines are telling me that. that the strokes are the new Ramones. And therefore, these dudes, God bless them, are the new cars.

And it just so happens that the new cars are just what I needed. Fountains of Wayne. I brought out Fountains of Wayne earlier and now I really want to hear Fountains of Wayne. Stacey's Mom, 2003. These guys are already on their third album here. And this is not their best song. That's all kinds of time. or prom theme or maybe Barbara H.

But this is in arguably their biggest song. Apex Fountains of Wayne. Dig the dorky majesty of the synthesizer. Dig the pop frivolity. Dig the stylized awkwardness. Dig the nerd grandeur. You really know Rock is back when the uncool kids get a hold of it. Of course, with this sort of thing,

it helps to be English. Or if you can't be English, at least try to be like Canadian Hot Hot Hot Heat 2003 This song is called Bandages The Bandages

The Band is Canadian The dorky majesty Of the circus organ Not very rock and roll But somehow exquisitely rock and roll Yes Talk to Me Dance with me is the best

Hot Hot Heat song We're getting closer to the apex of extra cool on coolness. We finally found some English people, for one thing. Casabian, 2004, they are English. Did I remember the name of that song?

No, I did not. It is called Clubfoot, that song. Clubfoot. Sure. Do I remember any of the lyrics to that song whose title I just forgot again, including the lyrics I just heard 10 seconds ago? No, I do not remember anything of this story.

You know what I remember? That's all that matters. You give me a rad bass line and the rest of my brain turns off. I'm not going to look up the name of Casabian's bassist, but he'd better have an awesome name. If you're not going to be English, ooh, even better, be Scottish. Franz Ferdinand, 2004, take me out. They are Scottish. That song rules, obviously.

I will not insult your intelligence by elaborating on the fact that take me out rules. Rock is back exclamation point for me for real now. This sort of rock, my kind of rock, cares a little more about how it dresses than maybe it ought, even if I personally dress like a slob. This sort of rock, maybe theoretically, kind of makes you want to dance, even if I personally cannot and do not dance. This sort of rock makes me feel like I'm at a video arcade at the mall, even if video arcades ain't much of a thing anymore.

Tell me this doesn't sound like Gallagher a little bit. Or perhaps Xaxon. It's the keyboard, right? The keyboard that sounds like lasers, like sex lasers. Beaud, beod, we have a ride. They have arrived. They are the killers from Las Vegas, Nevada. They are, therefore, not English, but they got popular in England first.

And if they'd been around during the Revolutionary War, they probably would have sided with the English. Close enough. Regale me with a chorus, traitors. This is the first killer song I heard. Somebody told me. A song with, let's say, a very clear precedent. The killers are honorary Englishmen. The killers love the Smiths.

The killers love Depeche Mode, Joy Division, New Order, The Cure. The killers love Brit Pop. The killers love Oasis. The killers love Oasis and, I strongly suspect, blur. And I extra strongly suspect that the killers especially love the 1994 Blur Jam Girls and Boys, which was tremendously subversive if you were 16 and lived in Ohio. at the time. That's the Killers playing.

Somebody told me on Saturday Night Live in 2005. Tofer Grace was the host. And I watched this when it aired. And for whatever reason, I have never forgotten. I've got potential people as long as I live. Just that one word ad lib from Killers frontman Brandon Flowers, the direct address to society via the addition of the word people. I've got potential people.

And then he plays that little sex laser keyboard line. Poo, peep, beep, pew, pew, pew, pew, pew. Somehow the cockiest and also dorkiest rock and roll flourish ever aired on television. You know that meme that's a drawing of a horse where it starts out all beautiful and delicately shaded and intricate and professional. But as you move from left or right from the horse's tail to the head, the drawing gets cruder. and sloppier and goofier looking. So by the time you get to the horse's head, it looks like a four-year-old did it.

The caption is usually something like when I've only got five minutes to finish the test. I see this meme a lot when someone's preferred football team, et cetera, plays well in the first half and then plays poorly in the second half and loses. Right? You get me? You familiar with this?

The unfinished horse drawing meme? the first killer's record called Hot Fuss comes out in June 2004. You know how most albums, most CDs by even the greatest rock bands, tend to have two or three or maybe four great songs, and then the rest of the record falls off a cliff like Wiley Coyote? Can you even count how many times you've put in a CD or bought an album off iTunes or whatever and you start the album and from track to track you go, yeah, next song. next song.

Yeah. Next song. Yeah. And then I miss that rhythm. Honestly. The reliable disappointment. Ephoria of all the front-loaded good songs, dead-ending into the inexplicably soothing letdown

of the not-good songs. This is tremendously rude, by the way. I am being rude. I am being rude to the killers. The last seven tracks on Hot Fuss by the Kills by the killers are fine. They're fine.

I would like to formally retract my earlier characterization of these seven songs as that's rude and they're fine. I will play you one song as penance. See, now this is great.

Little sex laser intro. Boop, boop, boop, boop. Like you're playing Frogger in the video arcade in the mall, but the vibe is both sensual. and ominous. This song is called On Top. Yeah, it is.

This is an unremarkable. This is a replacement level killers chorus. On Top is most likely not among the first 15 killer songs you think of when you think about the killers, as one does. But observe that a replacement level killers chorus is often superior to any other 21st century band's best choruses. The stinging guitar riff in the chorus to on top. Be do do do is a rad hook. Killers frontman Brandon Flowers singing a ho repeatedly. That is inexplicably part of a rad hook. There is a propulsion to this chorus, a lascivious melodicism, a winsome pretentious

pretentiousness is a really terribly rude and inaccurate description of this song, which suffers within the context of this album only by comparison. No, what I mean to say is that hot fuss by the killers boasts very arguably the single most bonkers four-song run of the 21st century tracks two through five. It is convenient for me, narratively, if I play these four songs, for you in reverse order. So look, forgive me for this, but Courtney Love sends me messages from time to time. She is the one famous person with whom I interact semi-regularly. It's quite random. I'll explain how that happened some other time. But so I tell her I'm starting this season with Mr. Brightside, and she goes, oh, God. And then she's like, oh, Mr. Brightside is okay. It's the I've got soul,

but I'm not a soldier song that I don't like. And then she tells me that one time she watched Brandon Flowers, Bono from you two, and Chris Martin from Coldplay, sing that song together after the Brit Awards. And she says, quote, it was making me nauseous.

It's such a horrific song. I went in the bathroom and sort of shed a tear over how horrible that song is. I could then look Gwyn. If Paltrow, married to Chris Martin at the time, in the face and honestly say, Chris made me cry the other night. End quote. It's corny of me to bring this up and I am sorry, but that image is tremendously funny to me. Courtney love fleeing to the bathroom and crying because of her dislike for the killer song,

all these things that I've done. Rock is back. I also agree to disagree because this song rules. You know my favorite part of all these things that I've done, the gonzo chaotic rumbling transition from the I Got Soul, but I'm Not a Soldier part back to the chorus, the propulsion, the arena rock anthemic rambunctiousness of it.

This part makes you excited to hear the chorus again. That is a harder songwriting trick than you might imagine, but the killers mastered that trick immediately. And this song, all these things that I've done is quite profound. even moving if you'll allow it to be. The killers formed in Las Vegas in 2001. All four of them worked at the Aladdin Hotel at the same time. It's a planet Hollywood now. And also, FYI, the spice market buffet there is permanently closed. That's a shame. The killers consist of frontman and sex laser keyboardist Brandon Flowers, guitarist Dave Cooning, bassist Mark

Stormer and drummer Ronnie Vanucci Jr. Let's admit right off the that there ain't a Dr. Matt destruction in this crew, but Brandon Flowers sneaks up on you as a rock and roll frontman name, does it not? The blurring of the unexceptional and the flamboyant implied by the name Brandon Flowers. Intriguing. Also intriguing.

Brandon Flowers is a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter-day Saints, and from the beginning he spoke honestly with interviewers about the contradictions of the Mormon lifestyle and the rock and roll lifestyle. The Killers made the cover of Spin magazine in 2005. And in that cover story, also written by the great Mark Spitz,

Brandon says, it's okay to say, I'm an atheist and I'm this artist, but it does make people kind of raise an eyebrow when they hear Mormon, because I smoke and drink. I don't get a chance to go to church all the time, but your average Joe isn't going to come across the things

that we're going to come across. end quote. And that acknowledgement that Brandon Flowers is not the average Joe is the animating tension of all these things that I've done. Talking to the podcast, the story behind the song in May 2024, Brandon says that in the Mormon faith, most men around 19 years old or so are strongly encouraged to go on a mission, a two-year mission, most often in a foreign country, to spread the faith to become a Mormon soldier of sorts. Whereas when Brandon Flowers was 19, he bought the 1971 David Bowie album, Honky Dory. And that's the moment where the brandonness of Brandon Flowers is overwhelmed by the flowersness of Brandon Flowers. If you take my meeting.

Yes, hunky dory, the David Bowie album with Oh, You Pretty Things and Changes and Life on Mars. and queen bitch. There ain't no coming back from Honky Dory. It's just too bad that Joseph Smith, the founder of Mormonism, died in 1844 and therefore never got to hear Honky Dory. Brandon Flowers decides in this moment

that he will somehow be both a devout Mormon and a legit rock star. On this story behind the song podcast, Brendan explains the line, I got soul, but I'm not a soldier like this. quote, I believe I still feel like I can be a worthy person and not check every box that I'm supposed to check. It's confessional, but it's also, I just want to know that's right, that what I'm saying is true. And I'm going to make 100,000 people sing it every night with me and let us know

that it's okay that we're not perfect. He also says, it's a prayer. It's strange to say in the world that we live in right now, but I'm speaking to God in the chorus. I want to know that I'm going to be okay. I'm not a cookie cutter Mormon. I am obviously doing something that is not a typical career path. I'm choosing something very different and I'm scared, end quote. So sing it with him, please. Okay, so that's a pretty good song. All these things that I've done. Most of us agree on that. That's track five on hot fuss. Track four is somebody told me, which we have already discussed. There's a vice article, a noisy article with the headline,

why hot fuss by the killers is about a murderous homosexual relationship. I can't get this article to load the cookies, the internet cookies situation is apparently nuts. So I am unable at this time to assess the validity of this theory that hot fuss by the killers is a concept. album is a song cycle about a murderous homosexual relationship. I'll leave this tab open though and I'll let you know if I ever get to actually read the article. The little pinwheel is still spinning. In the meantime, the best part of somebody told me is the pre-chorus.

Never thought I'd let a rumor ruin my moonlight. That's a great line. Can we agree on that, at least? I think we can agree on that. Okay, I'm really excited. it's time for track three. This is my favorite song on this record, if you want the truth.

Smile like you mean it. The sex laser keyboard riff really does it for me. In 2004, I was music editor at an alt weekly in Oakland, California, called the East Bay Express. Our office was actually in Emeryville, but Oakland sounds way cooler. And I was playing Smile Like You Mean It

over my computer speakers in my cubicle. And this dude, this reporter named Justin pops his head in and goes, wee-oo, he was cool, though. Justin, we played softball together. He was our lead-off hitter, and my nickname was Wheels,

which was, of course, pejorative. My colleague and former softball teammate, Justin is correct that the sex laser, ooh-wee-oo, keyboard line does repeat frequently in this song, but it's still my favorite song on the record. They called me wheels because I ran the basses so slowly. Just to clarify, okay, we made it to track two. Your mood lifts instantaneously, involuntarily,

upon hearing the opening guitar riff to Mr. Brightside. Does it not? If it doesn't, I don't want to hear about it. The New York Times, in December of 2023, published an article with the headline, how Mr. Brightside became a generation's anthem. And this article did load for me, blessedly, and thus I was informed that, quote, in the intervening decades, Mr. Brightside has become something more than a hit.

It has grown into an all-purpose, inescapable rallying cry, a karaoke staple, a football tradition. The University of Michigan's got a whole thing. A party playlist must have, a meme. It's a straight shot of nostalgia that having survived that awkward interval when a song feels dated and falls out of favor now belongs to a pantheon of modern classics that are both extremely of their time and transcend it. And also, if boomers gave the masses don't stop believing, millennials can claim Mr. Brightside as the generation's official entry into that canon, a song that gets everybody at the bar. Shout singing along. End quote. I have heard this before,

this assertion that Mr. Brightside is the don't stop believing of its time. And it's not that I disagree per se, but I do find it odd, this comparison, given that Don't Stop Believe in, the Journey song from 1981, Don't Stop Believing is a soaring anthem about triumphing in the face of adversity. Whereas Mr. Brightside,

the killer song, first released, a single in 2003 is a soaring anthem about how some dude is banging your girlfriend. I do not find the lyrical sentiment of Mr. Brightside to be uplifting or motivational. Do you, though? Maybe you do. I can sense your concern and I do want to assure you that I'm not going to start talking about the phantom dick again. I have no further insight to provide into the phantom dick. It would be thematically appropriate, though, if I just launched into that whole stupid bit again, because another notable aspect of Mr. Brightside is that the first verse and the second verse are identical. Lyrically, they are identical.

Brandon Flower sings the same words, but you can feel his teeth grinding in the second verse. The words just fine take on quite a different feel in the second verse, for example. episode two of this podcast way back in 2020 when we actually covered the 90s our second episode ever was about hey jealousy by the gin blossoms another notable beloved enduring pop song where the first verse and the third verse are the same the same words with just a few subtle and yet somehow monumental differences in the first verse it's you can see i'm no shapeful driving and anyway i got no point place to go. And in the third verse, it's, in any way, I've got no place to go. I did that from memory and so can you. And my guest in that episode was Blockbuster Poet and Columbus Mayor Hanif Abduroquib, who shouldn't answer my emails, but still does. And Anif talks about how lyrically those two verses of hey jealousy were the same, but you, as the listener, knowing what you know after hearing that verse the first time, now you have a completely different emotional experience hearing that same verse the second time.

He says, quote, it isn't so much as like going into a room and leaving a room and reentering that room with one piece of furniture moved. It's actually like sitting in one room for a while, getting an understanding of the room so that when you enter another room, your brain is still piecing together what you witnessed in the last room, end quote. And that's the loveliest and most perceptive thing anybody said so far on this podcast feed, if you want the truth. Whereas I'm happy to tell you that in the second verse of Mr. Brightside, the biggest difference is that now you are prepared for the arrival of the phantom dick. I need to stop talking. It's really that simple. Mr. Brightside is my third favorite killer song. Smile like you mean it.

is number two. This is number one. When you were young off the second Killers album, Samstown, released in 2006. Samstown is named after a Las Vegas casino. It's still there.

Sam's town is the most pompous burning down the highway skyline, hurricane turning, macho philosophical, Springsteenian, black and white, photography. We all bought expensive cowboy hats. We'd like to tell you a thing or two about America. Joshua Treeass album I ever heard in my whole life. And I love it very, very, very much.

I've grown a little more discerning in my advanced age when it comes to blatant Springsteen cosplay, but the killers are grandfathered in. One time I went to see Rihanna live at the Hammerstein Ballroom in New York City. This was 2009. rated R era, Rihanna. And at the time I was reading this book, The Orchard Keeper by Cormac McCarthy, the dude who wrote No Country for Old Men and Blood Meridian and the Road, the ultra-violent Western guy.

Cormac McCarthy, the great American novelist who'd only write on a typewriter, and he would only type on his typewriter with like a miniature typewriter key-sized shotgun somehow. And this book, The Orchard Keeper, falls out of my coat pocket in the men's bathroom of Hammerstein Ballroom and I don't realize it until I'm on the subway back home and that's how I describe

Samstown, the Killers album. It's a Cormac McCarthy novel accidentally left in the men's bathroom at a Rihanna concert. That's a compliment. I love that record. I'm absolutely serious. I love the Samstown song,

Read My Mind. I love it when Brandon Flowers just lists random ass semi-pompous we'd like to tell you a thing or two about America stuff. A city wall and a trampoline. That is objectively corny as hell. But you know what's one thing I love about America?

Corn. You know the killer song that I really didn't care about at the time, but I've come around to it now? This one. Human. Off the third Killers album, Day and Age, released in 2008. It is easy.

And it is also fun. To make fun of this song, to roll your eyes and snort, and perhaps even make a rude jerk-off motion when confronted with the line, are we human or are we dancer? But I find this line inexplicably moving now, like right now, the way it is objective nonsense, but Brandon Flowers sings it as though it's a profound spiritual conundrum. and by sheer force of pop star will, the line somehow becomes a profound spiritual conundrum. That's pop music at its best. Profoundly conveyed nonsense. Are we human or are we dancer walked?

So that's that me espresso could run. The killers endure as the slightly uncool thing that followed the cool thing. The stroke should have been on that rolling stone. Rock is back, exclamation point cover back in 2000. But they were too cool. They were too cool to want it. By wanted, I mean want all of it. In Lizzie Goodman's fantastic book,

Meet Me in the Bathroom, Rebirth and Rock and Roll in New York City, 2001 to 2011. The oral history. It came out in 2017. In that book, the spin writer, Mark Spitz, says, quote, the band that wanted it and were fucking ready for it were the killers. End quote. They worked harder.

They had to. If you bought all the way into the Rock is back mindset, Las Vegas isn't cool. Sex laser synthesizers aren't cool. New Wave isn't cool. Mormonism isn't cool. Not doing very many drugs isn't very cool. Expensive cowboy hats aren't cool. Aping Bono and Springsteen isn't cool.

Wanting it isn't cool. So the killers worked harder and tried harder and defiantly wanted it more. And you know what? Forget it. You know all that. Mr. Brightside. Great song. Okay.

You want to talk about Springsteen? You want to talk about the killers as crucial links in an evolutionary chain of new frontiers in rock excellence and horny poetry. Do you know Bat for Lashes, the stage name for the English singer-songwriter Natasha Khan? You ever hear the Bat for Lashes cover of Bruce Springsteen's I'm on Fire? she put it out in 2006 and she changes some of the words

sometimes it's like someone took a knife be edgy and blunt but a six inch valley through the middle of my soul I'm going to let you name that one we are delighted to welcome back ringer superstar and podcasting legend Chris Ryan, co-host of the watch and number one draft pick in our hearts.

Chris, welcome. Thank you for being here. Rob, thanks so much for having me at the beginning of a new century, man. Who could it be, but Chris Ryan, to kick this off. Does it surprise you, Chris, that Mr. Brightside has emerged as possibly the single biggest rock and roll song of the 21st century so far? It shocks me. I think that it's a song that at least sonically has not aged poorly at all.

So, right? Like, it has very, very, very good bones. And as I've been listening to it over the last couple of days, I'm like, yes, it does have like 13 earworms in the first 18 seconds. So there's obviously some, there's something to it. But I do think that this song is now taken on a life outside of the song itself. and even outside of the band itself, that it makes for a really interesting discussion topic,

but I don't know how to root that within, like, the experience of the early 2000s. I know what you mean, because you sent me this video yesterday. Apparently it was viral. I had never seen it of an Irish pub where they're singing Mr. Brightside in honor of their friend who died.

They're like, there's ones for our friend. And it's such a beautiful moving moment. And like a testament to the church. triumph of the human spirit. I'm also like, is anyone listening to the lyrics at all? Like, this just, this does not make any sense thematically. Like, what is going on here, do you think? Yeah. I mean, it's a cathartic song. So I definitely think that it can be used in multiple circumstances. But it, for me, I love this song. I don't get tired of it. I think if you were going to be critical,

it like loses some of its juice in the last like 40 seconds. But up until then is kind of like, I want to live in this forever. But it's a song that gets exponentially better, the more and more people are enjoying it in person. So like, I love listening to Jason Molina. I don't really want to listen to Jason Molina with other people. No, you know what I mean though, right? Yeah, I do. Like, farewell transmission is mine. It's yours. It's like we sit there. It's gin ocean time. Like, it's dark. Thank you. Thank you. It's solitary. But Mr. Brightside. But Mr. Brightson, it's mine. side is like the bar needs to be full. The University of Michigan, 110,000 people need to be seen. I need to be in public. And I think the thing that I love about it when you're out

in something, whether this is a karaoke song or it comes on in a bar at a sporting event or whatever, is the guitar is the like tap on the shoulder. Right. Like the opening few bars is like, hey, right. You know what's on. It's about to be a really real next two minutes and 20 seconds. So, but I, you know, if you had told me in 2000, and what is this, like, fall of 03, this single comes out? Yeah. And everything that was happening in New York, I believe you were in New York by then, right? Not until 06, but I was certainly aware that rock and roll was cool again thanks to New York.

And I was like, thanks a lot, New York. You knew that I was wearing Chuck Taylor's standing on Safe Marks. That's correct. If you were giving me like 50 guesses from that era of like what's going to be the song that continues to like Phil State, mediums, power sing-alongs, like soundtrack wakes, everything. I would not have guessed this. Right. Because there was that other video just in July of the killers.

They were playing in London as the England-Netherlands match in the Euro semifinals is ending. And when England wins, you know, they launch into Mr. Brightside, you know. And it's like this huge cathartic moment again, as you say. Like, what makes this song such an effective jock jam? Well, I think it's like the buildup for one thing. I was watching college football over the weekend. I don't know when this is running, but it was the first weekend of college football.

And I had like a really cool five minutes as Texas A&M walked out to Eminence Front by the Who. And I was like, this is awesome because it's just it's just the steps up. You know, it's about like the only thing I like about Texas A&M. But college kids love the Who. Yeah. They're just crazy about the Who. Especially late Who they love. Yeah.

The good shit. Towns and got into keyboards. So there's something about the ascending kind of like intensity of it. And it starts out and it has this kind of like buildup. But why is it a jock jam? I don't know, man. Like I have no idea. I have no idea.

Like that was just perfectly time. They are obviously like probably almost more beloved in England than they are in the States at this point. I think several of their songs have become absolute tune staples. like if this comes on, if when you were young comes on, if this, if,

if all these things that I've done comes on, like it really goes there. But, you know, there are some songs that I think decouple from their lyrical meaning entirely. I had an experience a couple of weeks ago

where I was at karaoke and, uh, I put on lead by James. Hmm. And you would have thought bad brains just came on. Like, people were like fucking smashing into each other.

And I'm like, this is a lovely song about physical intimacy. It certainly is. It's unambiguous in its subject matter. But there is a barbaric yop in it. And there's definitely a howl. That's all you need. In Brightside. And I think that has lots to do with it.

Okay. I was going to ask you, you know, as one of our favorite Anglophiles, like, do you hear what England immediately heard in this band? This is sort of the archetypal. American band that got big in the UK first and then came back to us, you know, as conquering heroes somehow. I think it's so there's a lot of what I think kind of was confusing about this band at various points was their packaging.

Um, so, you know, like when they first came out, I think they were associated with the Rock is back stuff of the early 2000s. But in their actual musical DNA are Britpop guys. Of course, Depeche Mode and. Yeah. So to me, you know, a lot of stuff on hot fuss wants to sound like, like, girls and boys, park life era blur or big, huge muscle, like, Oasis rock or New Wavey Depeche Mode stuff. So I think that they always had like that affection, which knowing that they're from Vegas and knowing like, you know, their, they're sort of trajectory a little bit. You imagine is like British music as refracted through American alternative radio, right? So like the cure song that was big on alt rock radio, maybe not necessarily. Yeah. But maybe not a forest, you know, like kind of like.

Yeah. So that's that's my read on their, their anglophilia. Okay. What do you remember of your first encounter with them? Were you in New York at the time when you first heard them? Did you have any sense that you were hearing, you know, the one of the bands? No. I remember they were popular and I remember that they got a lot of traction fairly quickly.

no small amount due to Brightside success. And, you know, I remember Brightside, Mr. Brightside had the first video was this like black and white performance video. And they kind of looked, I can't remember honestly, like early 2000s, I should do a better job with my chronology. But they had like a little bit of like mall emo look to them. It was kind of like mall emo meets strokes, you know, like. Yes. They didn't look like the strokes. Yeah, that's for sure.

But it was like there was something kind of pre-frokes. fabricated about it, but they had songs. I remember, like, Smile Like You Mean It and Jenny was a friend of mine, and a lot of the other tracks besides Brightside were also pretty popular. Like in that, there was this club in New York, a club night called Miss Shapes. That was kind of like, New Wave, Brit Pop. I think that was around, it was happening around 03. Like, I went.

I just don't really remember if that was exactly the time. But that, they would have fit nicely into that aesthetic, right? like kind of rock but kind of like we have lots of British we have lots of New Order records we play Blue Monday everybody goes crazy

the killers just worked very well in that in that environment but yeah at the time I was probably more into Interpol I think

and the strokes sure and the AAS but not not in a like fuck the killer's way the Vegas of it all is interesting to me

because you know if you don't live there I think you think of Vegas is this super glitzy, superficial place. And if you do live there, you think of it as like a really gritty, downtrodden, you know, like more born-to-run-type environment.

Are the killer sort of the best of both worlds within the city they came out of? Yeah, well, I think they have a ton of showmanship, right? Like, so I've watched, like, a, I find them so fun to see live, not personally. Like, I don't actually go see the killer. Sure. But, like, I enjoy watching, like,

their Glastonbury performances and stuff on YouTube. And one thing that you notice is that they have like choreography. Like they do certain things at certain points in the song. They're not like huge gestures or like dance sequences, but like Brandon Flowers will gesture in a certain way on a certain line every time. So there's like showmanship baked into it, which was very antithetical to even though everybody had a look, I don't feel like showmanship was at the top of Interpol's, like, priority.

Nor the strokes. Yeah. Yeah. Like, they dressed cool. And it was like, we're a band and, like, we all, like, have this shared style. But it wasn't like, and on this line, I'm going to say, punch, you know, like, like that. And I think he does like looking cool than acting. Even now, I think even when he does.

Like, uh, the Saints into the sea part, like, he. pushes out. He always has this kind of like Vegas kind of sense of showmanship. So maybe that's what I most see and hear in them. And then like, you know, as they kind of tried on different hats as they went

along and they were kind of like, you know, an arena rock hold steady for a second, you know? Yeah, totally, totally. And then they kind of like indulged a more new wave stuff and now they've kind of become this institutional. I mean, like, are there any other rock bands that can

reliably do what they do now? I don't know. Like the foo fighters, you would say, yeah, but it's a, it's a, it's a one hand. It's a list you count on one hand of sort of rock bands that have like seven plus albums that have been around for 20 years who can still, you know, a headline at Glassenberry who can place arenas, you know, who put out albums and anyone cares at all. And I think I prefer, I prefer the killers to the food fighters at this point. Yeah, there's a lot more variety, certainly.

to the killers, you know, just even as you say, in like the first three or four records, you know, they go from a Springsteen thing to a new wave thing. You know, they tried different things, whereas I think what people like about the foo fighters is how reliable and unchanging they are to a degree. Do you think that there was a degree to which they weren't taken as seriously as some of the other bands around that time period

because they didn't necessarily have, like any kind of obvious tumult happening in the band? like the strokes always seemed to be like a kind of gang of private school kids who hated each other but loved each other you know interpol stood in almost total darkness while playing i wonder whether or not like the the the killers like theatricality and like they were kind of like they were kind of theater kids right like it felt very like they were ready to put on a show um no i agree completely like i was rereading meet me in the bathroom of course like the oral history of of that time. And it's mostly about the strokes, white stripes, New York, et cetera. But like,

the killers are sort of framed as they came along just a year or two later, but they were way better at being famous. Like, they wanted it and they went for it. And as you say, they were better at performing and they were better at just being rock stars, you know, and that makes them less cool, you know, if you're really sold on the idea of like a rock band being cool and diffident, you know, and not caring and not really wanting it and not wanting, you know, album, you know, magazine covers, but like, the killers just wanted all that stuff and knew how to handle it and knew how to perform. Yeah. And then it's so funny because, like, I've talked to them on the podcast a couple of times randomly. Right. And they're super nice guys. And that's it,

though. Like, they're not, like, it's not like when, like, you read these Julian Casablanca's interviews and he's just such like a kind of, I guess he's become controversial or whatever, but like even in his early days, like would just say shit where he would just be like, I never heard the Ramones or whatever, you know what I mean? Like, right. Or I've never heard television before, but people say we sound like them. And it would just be like a good interview subject. I think it's the interesting gap between like what music journalists thought was

interesting and what the public cared about. I was like, oh, man, this guy gave me a great quote. And everybody's just like, man, Mr. Bright side's just like a huge song. Nobody cares to me. He's got a adult. quote or not. They got to play the sphere, right? I was thinking about this.

I'm surprised. I'm surprised. They really should have. Yeah, because it's not like they're a huge, you know, visual band, but I think they can throw something together. And I just think that that needs to happen. Have you seen the killers live? I have seen the killers live.

I think I didn't see them live until the third record until day and age. I want to say I saw them at Hammerstein Ballroom, you know, for that album, you know. And so Mr. Brightside, of course, is already like the highlight, you know, the absolute highlight of the satellite. There's no question even then of sort of the hierarchy of killers hits, you know, but I love that record too. Like that's the more new wave record. Yeah. That's, you know, human, et cetera, space man. But I, it's, yeah, it was great to finally see them. You know, I'd seen lots on YouTube like you, but it was good to finally be in the room with them. Yeah. It's actually like a pretty satisfying. deep dive, especially even this later

period for them, because there's like one Glastonbury where Johnny Marr is playing guitar for them, and that's sick. There's another Glass and Barry, I think, from 19, where they did like a surprise set in the tent and they do Brightside and people go absolutely, they're

gone. Like, they're just out of, like, because it was just like the vaguely indoor, like, second stage. So that's, it's just like, it's just a fun YouTube deep dive to watch them. And then, like, you can find stuff like the funeral. They're, you know, University of Michigan sings it at football games. Modern baseball did a whole set of killers covers.

It's fun to see, like, kids in Gainesville going crazy for a song. That stadium, like Phil Stadium's too. Yeah. Actual emo kids. They're a skeleton key band, man. They really, I don't know many people who are like, I hate this band. It's true. It's true.

Everyone, we can all agree on the killers. Is it true? that the second Brandon Flowers solo album is a masterpiece. It's really, really good, Rob. Have you checked it out? It is called the desired effect from 2015. The song,

it's Can't Deny My Love. Like, that's one of, I prefer that song to like later period killer songs. Like, that's one of my favorite songs that he's ever been a part of. Yeah, that's the one where it sounds like, that's a great record.

He's singing over the Fletch soundtrack. Yes. But I mean that is a compliment. I want Chris Ryan to love this song specifically. What can I do to make Chris Ryan love this song? And he made the right choice. That's like this is kind of sacrilegious, but I feel like desired effect is like his full moon fever.

It's like a really like. I get you totally. It's like a perfect radio for guys who were like grew up like where Rob and I were like listening to solo Petty. in excess, like really, really good radio pop rock. There's like six or seven songs on this record specifically that he does that are just so good. He's, there's a song called Between Me and You that he's like performed live with Chrissy Hind a bunch that's really good. But yeah, I don't know why.

I'm not like, it's not like I'm a Brandon Flowers completest. I just happened to really love this record. Yeah, I always got a lot of Oingo Boingo off it. I hadn't thought of full moon fever, but now that you have, I need to go back and listen to it. Even just like it's like conceptually, it's just like in the tones that they find. I think I'm also thinking that because he did a traveling Wilburys cover when he did a like, like it was like a George Harrison tribute or something or maybe it was just a George Harrison cover, but he was like it was in that Jeff Lynn kind of production tone.

Yeah, ELO even. It makes a whole lot of sense. it is right i'm yeah it's not it's not spring it's not spring it's not spring it's the thing i always think about right it's not like the source it's the second thing that's almost better than the source bon jovi's not better than springsteen but you get my drift no i know what you i know what you're saying yes i was going to ask you if sam's town was the best fake springsteen record of all time but it makes it makes more sense as the best fake bonjol OV record of all time.

I know completely what you mean. And I think that they kind of play up to, like they will never not play Brightside. Like there is no okay computer complex for these guys. Like they will play bright side every night. And it's like that like it goes beyond like it becomes happy birthday for them. I'm sure. But like it's like that's the night of the year for the people who go see them.

And so I think that there's a showmanship. And yeah, like I don't think that they do. four-hour shows where they're doing like old 60s stacks covers like Space Steamwood. We hope you like our new direction. That's right. That's right. All right. Look for me and Chris in the front row

on every date of the next Brandon Flowers solo tour. Chris, thank you so much for being here. Thanks for having me. My producers are complaining that we don't hear enough from my producers on this show. I've gotten the note

that the outro to the show is, quote, mundane, end quote. That's not good. I take these complaints very seriously. I wish to amend this now. And so I'd like to have a brief conversation with my producers, with Jonathan Kermann and Justin Sales. So they can share their thoughts on anything, really, but maybe specifically on the killer song, Mr. Brightside. Kerm, you're younger than me. Let's not overdo it, you know, it's, but you're younger to me. Tell me, Kerm, you know, your first exposure to this song, where were you, how old were you, and how did you feel when you heard Mr. Brightside for the first time? The first time where I knew for a fact, this is Mr. Brightside by the killers. Not going to lie, it was years after the song actually came out. I'm talking like

2017. I'm a freshman in college. 13 years after it came out. Yes. Jesus. So it's not that I hadn't heard the song before. I think I'd heard it on like Pandora Radio, you know, listening to like Lincoln Park Radio, Paramore Radio, where I'm like, I've heard this song before, but I'm in the middle of a frat party at UMass Amherst, and I'm just watching what I can only describe as like a ritual.

Like the song comes on and the white folks in the room, like they're all making eye contact with each other and just it becomes a whole glorious ceremony where everybody's singing bar for bar yelling at each other in a way that I could only compare to like, if I met like a black function and a song like Meek Mill Dreams and Nightmares comes on or Back That Ass Up comes on

where everybody knows the worst of this song and I couldn't for the life of me understand what was special about this song until I started to really listen and the hook just, it definitely, captured me. I'm not going to lie. It's a very good song. You've come around on it. Were you frightened in that moment? Did you feel like you were in danger? Absolutely. I was terrified. I looked around for, I was like, can I find any other black, like, my friends that I came with, somehow I got separated from them. So I'm just looking around for any ally.

And the only other black person I can see within like 10 feet, I look at them, they are equally as confused as me of like, we didn't get the memo that like this is one of those songs. We're supposed to sing bar for bar. The jelly. See, everybody's just going crazy. I didn't know. I didn't get it. Like, I was like, this song sounds familiar, but I don't have this emotional attachment that everyone else in this room has. Dreams and nightmares for white people is that is truly amazing. Do you mind if I ask you a question?

And Justin is what. Who's in the room. He's not said of words. I'm just observing because I am like perfectly in the middle of the age of you guys. So I am observing. My question, I guess, is like, what about this song is so anthemic for white folks? Because, like, I can break it down. Dreams and Nightmares is like a song of triumph, right?

Yeah, of course it is. The idea, rags to riches type of song. This song is just one dude who's just mad that, like, someone else has his girl, essentially. That's right. Have you ever seen Patrice O'Neill talk about creep by Radiohead? No. Okay. If you watch that, I think it will give you a little bit more understanding.

but there is some creep from Radiohead vibe to this, right? Like the fact that these specific, well, not even specific white dudes, because you're talking like frat dudes, right? But the fact that white dudes in particular really relate to this. Got you, got you. So Patrice O'Neill on Radiohead's creep, watch that. Oh, watch that. Any additional thoughts, Rob?

There is an intangible anthemic in a weird way vibe to this song that I still, I've now spoken about this song for 8,500 words or whatever, and I still can't really answer this question. It's just there is something inherently anthemic. It's like a jock jam butt for losers, right? Maybe it is that simple, you know, that it's just I think we can all relate in one way or the other to the theme of this song, unfortunately. And it's our attempt to turn personal tragedy into public celebration, you know.

I also want to hold you. It's definitely unbelievably catchy. I still don't know all the words of that hook. But once he starts saying jealousy, I'm just, I'm feeling it. I can't even, I can't even fret. So I guess that plays a factor into it too. Like I think another anthem I can think of off top of my head, like, sweet Caroline. Like, there's some songs where I'm like, I don't know why y'all fuck with this.

But like, it turns into a ritual when it comes on. Well, it said old, I think it was Deasus. I think it was Deasis Nice. The tweet, uh, Sweet Caroline is Nuck a few bucks for white people. There we know. But Mr. Briceide

is dreams and nightmares for white people. Agreed. Agreed. I think we can all agree this has not been mundane at all. I think this is a vast improvement on our previous outro. I think that every song

that we do, Kerm, you should deem this song is X for white people. That's, I think, the formula we've stumbled across today.

So we've starting out strong here. Okay, this was a thing. Fantastic. Thank you very much to our producers, Justin Sales and Jonathan Kerma. Thank you to Olivia Creary for additional production help. Thank you to Julianna Ress for fact-checking and thank you for listening. And now let's all sing along for whatever reason to Mr. Brightside by the killers.