60 Songs That Explain the '90s - “Say My Name”—Destiny’s Child

Episode Date: August 2, 2023

Rob looks back at the many times ‘Star Search’ failed to select musical stars who went on to be music icons. Don’t worry, he still finds plenty of time to give both Destiny’s Child and a young, pre-megastardom Beyoncé their flowers. Later, Rob is joined by the host of ‘Making Beyoncé,’ Jill Hopkins, to further discuss Destiny’s Child as both a buzzing ’90s R&B group and a stepping stone to Beyoncé’s pop culture domination. Host: Rob Harvilla Guest: Jill Hopkins Producers: Jonathan Kermah and Justin Sayles Additional Production Support: Chloe Clark Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello, I am Juliet Litman, and let me tell you about my podcast Bachelor Party. It is your one stop for all things, Bachelor Nation. That includes The Bachelor, The Bachelorette, Bachelor in Paradise, and now Golden Bachelor. We are very excited about that in particular, but if you like anything having to do with those shows, come check it out. It's on Mondays and Thursdays. On Mondays, I am joined by my co-host, Callie Curry. We also dip into a little Love Island, and by a little, I mean, we are enthusiastic about that one as well. Plus, on Thursdays, I have a rotating series of guests with people from The Bachelor and from The Ringer who share my affection for this world.

So don't forget to subscribe or follow Bachelor Party wherever you get your podcasts. They don't screw it up all the time. Usually they screw it up. They screw it up 80 to 95% of the time. But paradoxically, it would be much harder. It would almost be impressive if they screwed it up fully 100%. of the time. So they do get it right sometimes. They got it right in 1984. They got it right with her. I believe the children of a future. She's the world that them leave away.

I too believe that children are our future, or at least this child is. Here we've got 11-year-old Chinese Lorraine Wilson, native of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. singing the bejesus out of the greatest love of all on Star Search. Late 20th century America's preeminent network TV talent show, which ran primarily from 1983 to 1995 and was hosted by Johnny Carson's sidekick and America's guffawing sweetheart Ed McMahon. Shanice is competing in the junior vocalist category. Spoiler alert, she wins.

She wins at the precise moment when she divides the word, inside into six glorious syllables. This is one of these talent show deals where you got to cram a whole expansive five-minute power ballot into two minutes or less. The arrangements get super truncated and convoluted, right? So, Cheneas wastes no time really singing the bejesus out of it. Now, ordinarily, I might have some trouble believing. an 11-year-old when she sings the words,

I decided long ago never to walk in anyone's shadow. Like, when did you decide that, Janice, when you were five? But no, no, I believe her. Janice Lorraine Wilson from Pittsburgh with a five-octive vocal range is already practically a music industry veteran by the time she's 11. She's got experience. Also in 1984, she co-stars on the first season of that TV show Kids Incorporated. You know, we're Kids Incorporated.

K-I-D-S. That's how the theme song goes. Also, when Janice was just nine years old, she scattered with Ella Fitzgerald in a Kentucky fried chicken commercial. That's what I said. Ella Fitzgerald is seated at a little table with an array of adorable children and cheerful adults crowded around her. But all those other people better keep their traps shut except this one.

That's Chenice. Good for Pittsburgh, honestly. Yin's did a nice job being Chenise's hometown, Pittsburgh. Of course, by the time she's 11 years old and scatting with Ella and rocking star search, she's out in L.A. on the cusp of pop stardom. But nonetheless, I did say five octave range, right? All right, Shanice, take it. at home. She kicks

ass on somewhere over the rainbow too. I don't understand the way Star Search works structurally. Like if they sing a new song every week and there's returning champions who all throw down during the grand finale or what. It's one of those deals where the more I read

about this, the more confused I get. It doesn't matter. She wins. She wins possibly multiple times for some reason. The point is that Chenice's versions of somewhere over the rainbow and The Greatest Love of All conclude in a similar manner. Listen, if you had a five-octive range,

you would also conclude every song you sing in this manner. And that's how she won again, or possibly for the first of several times subsequently. She wins junior vocalists on Star Search. She wins $5,000, which is the modern equivalent of $200,000. roughly. She does a little musical theater. She signs with A&M records, and Shanice puts out her debut album in 1987. It is called Discovery. She is 14. She sounds like she's 14. That's a compliment. That is ideal. This song is called He's So Cute.

And then at the end, she goes, he's so cute. Because when you're listening to a teenage pop star, you're asking yourself two questions subconsciously. Question number one, does this teenager sound like a real teenager? Or do they sound like a 50-something record executives deranged and probably a legal misconception of a teenager? And question number two, can you hear the machine? Yeah, the machine, the industry, the handlers, the managers, the investors, the producers, the songwriters, the deranged label executives, the choreographers, the stylists, the stylists, the tutors, the charm school and or boot camp instructors. When the teenage pop star sings, can you hear the teenage pop stars overwhelmed and or domineering parents? Bonus points, of course,

when the parents are the managers, investors, producers, boot camp instructors, etc. Can you hear all the tense boardroom meetings and vicious backstage fights and hostile takeovers and failed hostile takeovers and machine type machinations. Can you hear all that chaos and ugliness in the song itself? Because the machine is there always. Behind any teen pop star, preteen pop star, child pop star, there's a machine. The machine grows larger and louder and more domineering and deranged. The younger the young pop star is. But also the older that young pop star is getting and the higher the stakes have gotten. The more money and time and emotional investment the various investors have invested, all of which is not ideal musically, all of which is suboptimal. A teenager singing a pop song

never sounds simply, purely, gloriously, only like a teenager singing a pop song, right? Never. Almost never. Cherish those moments when the song the teenager is singing is so joyful and carefree, that the machine is undetectable, invisible, inaudible. That sort of miracle only happens 0.000, 0.005% of the time, but they don't screw it up all the time. They got it right in 1991. She got it right. There are days when this is the greatest pop song ever written, ever some. Specifically, those are the days when you hear this song. I love your smile by Shanice from her 1991 sophomore record Inner Child. She is

18 now. She's on Motown Records. Her machine now includes the producer and drummer and songwriter and pop star whisperer Narada Michael Walden who worked with Aretha Franklin and Mariah Carrie and perhaps most famously Whitney

Houston. Shanice, however, is not psyched that this is her lead single. In 2021, Shanice told Urban Bridges.com, that's Bridges with a Z. Just roll with it. and he says, wow, that single actually shocked me because I didn't want it to be the first single. Gerald Busby, the CEO of Motown at the time, forced it on me. I co-wrote it, but he was just so happy.

I was thinking, people are going to think I'm corny and I was crying. It was like, please, Gerald, don't release this first. He said, this is the first single and I'm not changing it. End quote. Sometimes the machine has good ideas, which makes the machine extra nefarious. Sometimes the machine forces good ideas upon you. I love this song. I love, I love your smile. This song sounds like a beam of pure sunlight. It sounds like a snowday feels. It also somehow sounds like the first warm day of spring. It sounds like your first crush calling you on the phone. your own phone in your bedroom, the see-through handset phone from Spencer Gifts. This sounds like the mall.

It sounds like taking your first crush to the mall. It sounds like taking your first crush to the mall with $20 in your pocket. I love listening to I love your smile and trying to decide if this sounds like an 18-year-old talking the way an 18-year-old in 1991 would talk. Does this sound like an 18-year-old talking? sitting in my class, not really, just drifting away, maybe, staring into the windows of the world,

absolutely not. But then again, that's such a weird phrase that it swings all the way back around to sounding plausibly teenaged. On paper, you can calculate, you can debate the machinedness of I Love Your Smile. You can contemplate the tangible presence of the various sweating adults in the room. record when you are listening to I Love Your Smile. You are overwhelmed by the sweetness and light and transcendently corny jubilence of Cheney. And Cheneyce alone singing, I Love Your Smile. This song is indeed just so happy. I'm going to put that new black mini on my charge anyway. How old was the person who wrote that line specifically? I'm at a little. I'm at asking you, I can't decide. It could go either way. The person who wrote that line could be 17 or 65,

but the 18-year-old delivers that line with an 18-year-old supernova charisma and voila, the greatest pop song ever written. I Love Your Smile is the biggest hit of Shanice's career. It peaked at number two on the Billboard Hot 100, topped only by George Michael and Elton John, doing Don't Let the Sun Go Down on Me. That's a great version of that song. Ladies and gentlemen, Mr. Elton John, that's legit. Do you mind? Can I give you the top 10 songs in America on February 1st, 1992? Real quick. Here we go. Number one, George Michael and Elton John. Number two, Shanice. Number three, Color Me Bad with All for Love. I forgot about that song. All for Love by Color Me Bad. I read that song title and I was like, what? No. And then I played it

again. And then I was like, oh, that song. That song rules, actually. I taped that shit off the radio when I was 12, and I'll tell you all about it. That's legit. That's legit. Number three. Number four, Prince and the New Power Generation, diamonds and pearls. Always. Number five, Mariah Carey, can't let go. Always. Number six, right said Fred. I'm too sexy. Right then? Sure. Number seven, C.C. Penison. Finally. Always, always, always. Number eight, Nirvana. Smells like teen spirit. Woo! Number nine, Michael Jackson, black or white, below Nirvana. Woo! Number 10. Tevin Campbell. Tell me what you want me to do.

I believe Tevin Campbell was 14 at the time, but he don't sound like he's 14. Now does he? Thank you. I enjoy that top 10 list very much. Take away Nirvana and we got both kinds of music. Pop and R&B. Made by both kinds of people. Teenagers and not teenagers. That doesn't quite feel like the 90s yet. That top 10 list from February 1992, does it? The 90s as I understand them and explain them has not yet begun yet. But anyway, yeah, I'm pretty share the best song in that list is I Love Your Smile, if only for the moment when Chenise orders her own saxophone solo. Blow, Brantford Blow is directed toward jazz legend Branford Marcellus providing the sax solo. The last person with the balls to yell Blow, Brantford Blow at Brantford Marcellus was transferred to a jazz quartet in Siberia by nightfall. Don't yell that at Brantford

unless you have Shanice's charisma. So in other words, don't. Speaking of don't, don't cover many Ripperton's loving you unless you also have a five octave range. Covering any

mini Ripperton song is a good way to give yourself a concussion while giving all of your unfortunate listeners concussions. Also, don't do it don't do it unless you are literally chenice no don't speaking of don't don't do with johnny gill aka the coolest the best member of new edition i know he's not an original member i don't care johnny gill is still the best no duetting with johnny gill unless you are

literally chenice that's chnese and johnny gill the coolest guy in new edition doing the song silent prayer on the Arsenio Hall show. That's a good time. That's a rather intense good time, that performance. You want to just go lie down after that happens, and maybe even while it's happening. Shanice sounds not at all like a teenager there, I have to say. Sheenice is in maximum quiet storm adult mode on silent prayer.

For balance on this record in her child, She sounds extra teenage on a song called Stop Cheating on Me I don't need a love of time again So past Don't even make me laugh You don't stop gonna kick you The hip hop rapping Shanice

I didn't censor that by the way Nor is that a radio edit That's what the album version Sounds like It's so wholesome That's one of the more robust Self bleeps Of 1991

Star Search got it right with Sheenise Star Search is not in the business of getting it right. Star Search usually screws it up. Star Search screwed it up with her. Britney Spears 10 years old, 1992, an extra truncated and convoluted version of Love Can Build a Bridge by the Judds.

10-year-old Britney Spears chewing through the power lines of that, oh, anything she loses. She loses to a Bolo tie wearing 12 year old named Marty. Marty's pretty good, actually. I think Brittany may have won a few times previously. I don't understand this format.

I'm sorry, Star Search does not have an intuitive competition structure. This video begins with Ed McMahon looking into the camera and explaining the rules of Star Search, and I still don't understand the rules. They screwed it up with Britney Spears. They screwed it up with this guy.

Justin Randall, aka Justin Timberlake, 11 years old. Also in 1992, also wearing a bowel tie along with his giant belt buckle and giant cowboy hat. As he awkwardly wrestles Alan Jackson's Love's Got a Hold on You to a draw. He loses. That's fine, actually. They screwed it up way worse with her. Make me soon. O'Lea.

10 years old. 1989. My funny Valentine. She loses. They all lose. Man, you ever notice that? Tiffany loses. Usher loses.

Alanis Morseet loses. Christina Aguilera loses. And Ed McMahon also biffs the hell out of her name. Christina Aguilera. I don't think so. Lead Rhymes loses eventually. After winning previously, who can say it's quite confusing

but yes yes okay all right there is losing on Star Search and then there is losing on Star Search

and then becoming a global megastar who waits 20 years to sample excerpts from the time you lost on Star Search on a song literally called flawless

your challenges are a young group from Houston welcome Beyonce Lativia, Nina, Nikki, Kelly, and Ashley, the hip-hop rapping girls' time. Hold up. Hold up. Do you mind if I, structurally, at this juncture, convoluted as it might appear,

I feel better if I tell you that my name is Rob Harvilla, this is the 1002nd episode of 60 songs that explain the 90s, and this week, in due course, we are discussing Say My Name. by Destiny's Child from their 1999 album The Writings on the Wall sounds like this

In the name No one is around you Say baby I love you You ain't running game In the unlikely event You're unaware That song connects To this

Star Search business Soon soon Soonish Destiny's Child The pop and R&B group formerly known as Girls' Time and most prominently featuring

future bonkers solo global superstar Beyonce who sampled girls' time losing on Star Search 20 years later on a song called flawless. Sorry, I was just getting worried that I was finally actually

going to do the thing where I only mentioned the song the episode's about in the last 30 seconds of the episode. It's crazy obnoxious. It was all starting to feel a bit postmodern. That's on me.

I do apologize. Okay, Ed, say their names again. These are a young group from Houston. Welcome, Beyonce, Lativia, Nina, Nikki, Kelly, and Ashley, the hip-hop rapping Girls' Time. Okay. All right. The phrase the hip-hop rapin' girls' time is where the trouble starts for our friends, Girls' Time, here on Star Search in the fall of 1992. Girls' Time, T-Y-M-E, are indeed a young group of tween girls from Houston, Texas. Future Global superstar Beyonce Knowles, for example, is 11 years old in this moment.

Girls Time sing they dance. They do a modest, but in this moment, rather overstated amount of hip-hop rapping. Their membership fluctuates the exact number of members fluctuates, but most of those other members eventually wash out. Nonetheless, Girls' Time have been kicking ass on the regional Texas talent show circuit. They've been in a boot camp style Motown-esque training environment for more than a year. at this point. They've cut an album's worth of demos out in San Francisco, but they can't get a record deal. They got a manager, they got producers and songwriters, they got investors in the emotional and financial sense. They got a large and loud and fearsome and somewhat malfunctioning machine built around them, including quite a few of their parents. Here on Star Search, in the fall of 92, their big moment, their last shot at fame and fortune, vying for a $100,000 grand prize. after having spent most likely way more than $100,000 to even reach this point.

Girls' time do indeed consist of Beyonce, Latavia, Nina, Nikki, Kelly, and Ashley. Beyonce Knowles and Ashley Davis are the ostensible leaders, the lead singers, though Beyonce already seems to be soaking up more and more and more of the spotlight to Ashley's dismay. And speaking of Ashley's dismay, after Ed McMahon's unfortunate hip-hop rap and introduction, It mostly falls to Ashley to provide the hip-hop rapping element of this song, which is called Talking About My Baby. These lines, these bars, how old is the person who wrote these bars? I would believe 11 years old.

I would also believe 105 years old. So there's a great podcast from 2019 called Making Beyonce, part of a series of biopic type podcasts produced by WBEZ in Chicago. This one's hosted by the great Jill Hopkins, who we'll be talking to later. And making Beyonce does a fantastic job and a thorough job, charting the rise and fall of girls' time. And also the rise and fall of the girls' time machine, all the manager and producer and songwriter types,

who tried so hard to turn these nine, 10, 11-year-old girls and a legit major label pop stars, and they failed, and they failed right here. The machine fails on Star Search. Girls' Time lose on Star Search. The Girls' Time Machine fails on Star Search. But the Girls' Time Machine had been breaking down for some time already.

The rancor, the infighting, the palace intrigue, the bickering parents, the profanity. Can I play you my favorite excerpt from this Making Beyonce podcast? here is Girls' Time songwriter Tony Moe describing the combative backstage Girls' Time Machine vibe in the weeks leading up to Star Search. And it was some, when I say some meetings that were dead out, you, you bitch, fuck you, you, like really, I hate to even say it, but ugly. I didn't censor that either. That's a radio edit. WBEZ is Chicago's. NPR station. I enjoy the robustness of this bleeping very much. I was listening to this episode while grocery shopping. I was in the produce section when this robust bleeping occurred. And I chuckled heartily to myself whilst I tried to find the organic grapes. Kroger's always out

of organic grapes. Beep you, Kroger. Tony Mo goes on. I got my daughter that. You know, F you, you know, F you, Matthew, you. Matthew, you. And your shit, fuck you and, you know, all that kind of shit. I'm talking about

the language was bad. That's what the girls' time machine sounds like. Matthew, of course, is Matthew Knowles.

Father of Beyonce, the quite successful Xerox sales rep turned legit music mogul Matthew Knowles. Matthews is

going to officially start his journey toward becoming a legit music mogul any second now. In terms of

girls' time performances and photos and such, Matthew feels that Ashley is too tall to be out in front in photographs and on stage. And so Ashley should stand in the back. And Beyonce, his daughter, should be out in front instead. And also, peep, peep, peep, that's the vibe when the hip-hop rapping girls' time hit the stage on Star Search. The bitchy and rancorous girls' time machine is now 10 times louder than the girls themselves.

It's not what you want. Though young Beyonce does what she can, because that's what Beyonce does. Listen to 11-year-old Beyonce Knowles chewing through the power lines of the word wrong. Deep in the YouTube comment section of Girls' Time on Star Search, there's a popular comment

where somebody says, Kelly carrying the harmony of the entire song, end quote, the fandom gets complicated with this group. The fandom is its own machine. We've got a catastrophic song choice issue here. According to that podcast, making Beyonce, the Girl's Time Machine decides that Girls' Time will perform a relatively new hip-hop rapping song called Talk About My Baby on Star Search.

But the group had way better and way less awkwardly hip-hop rap-oriented songs, two of which are literally called Boyfriend and Sunshine, respectively. Either of those would be better. But the machine wants to save those better songs for the later rounds of Star Search. Because there are rounds, right? Maybe, I don't know. This song is bad. All right.

Not the performance. Certainly not the dancing. Not the singing. Not even the hip-hop rapping. All of that is pretty good and pretty great. The song choice is bad. I'm saying this out loud. Girls time probably shouldn't have won Star So I can't say it.

Never mind. Forget it. Withdrawn. I didn't say it. I didn't say it. Don't come after me. Girls time lost on Star Search. Girls time lost on Star Search to an acoustic-based Detroit rock band called Skeleton Crew. If you know that, it's most likely because Beyonce told you that. for the challenger girls time receives three stars going through champion once again congratulations we'll see you next week thus ends Beyonce's

2013 song flawless these poor guys these poor guys just wanted to wear their silk shirts and tastefully flaunt their voluminous mullet adjacent hairstyle and strum there somewhere between three and 25 acoustic guitars and sing their morose, harmonious,

loquacious, actually pretty good songs of mild to severe philosophical dissatisfaction, skeleton crew out of Detroit, Michigan. On that Making Beyonce podcast, various members of the Girls' Time Machine recall being displeased to learn that Girls' Time would be competed. on Star Search against a rock band full of 30 or 40-something dudes. And one of the dudes in skeleton crew jumps in to clarify that at the time, they were all roundabout late 20s. Yeah. Yeah, totally.

I can totally relate to that because I too am roundabout late 20s. and I have been so for some time. That's the song Skeleton Crew beats Girls' Time with. It's called Sentimental. That is the studio version of Sentimental, because it appears that Skeleton Crew themselves uploaded all their Star Search footage to YouTube, but they uploaded it with the volume way, way down, which is a very roundabout late 20's approach to YouTube.

Skeleton Crew survived several rounds of Star Search, but didn't win. That's all I can say for certain about that. And I can't really hear any of these songs they uploaded, but these dudes are in all seriousness. They're playing just a disconcerting number of acoustic guitars, possibly three, possibly as many as 25 acoustic guitars. It's excessive.

Just have one guy play acoustic guitar and make him much louder. That would be my note for Skeleton Crew, who won Star Search or at least won several rounds of Star Search. So who cares what I think about that or anything else? Listen, I've been watching Beyonce Luce televised music-type competitions to sad, dour men with guitars for like 20 years now. And this is not the most egregious example of that.

Do you want to hear Skeleton Crews attempt to upload their own girl's time-defeating Star Search performance of sentimental onto YouTube? YouTube. Oh, why not? Great try, guys. I was in a hotel room in New York City in December 2013. The night Beyonce surprise released her album, Beyonce, with all the videos, including the flawless video. I was working for Spin Magazine. I was in the content business. And I distinctly remember I am casually browsing Twitter and I am informed that Beyonce has just surprise release a full audio visual album and I go, oh fuck.

I love that album. It's my favorite Beyonce album if you want the truth. But speaking as a content generator, that surprised Beyonce drop was a code red extinction level event. And I could hear from my New York City hotel room, the sonic boom caused

by every magazine and website editor on earth emailing the acoustic basis, Detroit rock band Skeleton Crew for comment about their appearance and the Beyonce song, Flawless. You could hear all 10 million interview request emails

hitting Skeleton Crews, probably AOL inbox simultaneously. Like, I emailed them. I hope I did. And Skeleton Crew talked. Man, Skeleton Crew understood that beating Beyonce's old

group on Star Search is the one concrete fact. Everyone knows about skeleton crew unless you are married to a member of skeleton crew. Skeleton crew drummer Greg Tyler talking to People magazine. He says, we don't have any grand illusions. This is Beyonce's story. And obviously our destiny was to play a part in it. If that experience helped to shape her and make her into what she is now, then what more can we ask? End quote. these poor guys I can think of a few more things they could have asked for

but that's quite gracious of him I suppose. Meanwhile, as Greg himself suggests, we turn our attention now to Beyonce's destiny. The short version is that girls time lose on Star Search and Matthew Knowles goes up to Star Search

host Ed McMahon and Matthew's like, what the hell am I supposed to do now with all these super talented crying 11 year old girls who don't have a record deal. And Ed says words to the effect of, well, we screw it up a lot. And most people who win this show don't amount to much pop stardom wise. So to quote notable star search, not winner, Alia, in an Alia song that's not coming out until like eight years from now, if at first you don't succeed, dust yourself off and try again, which is pretty cool and prescient of Ed to say all that.

And Matthew interprets all that as Ed, giving his blessing to Matthew's semi-hostile takeover of girls' time. Matthew is now co-manager, along with original manager, Andreda Tillman, who dies of Lupus in 1997. The group sheds several members, including poor, tall, hip-hop rap and Ashley Davis, whose parents, I think, play some part in her leaving girls' time. Ashley is now better known as Tamar Davis, who goes on to work with Prince. It eventually has a way better talent show experience on the voice.

Tamar Davis is great. The group is now a quartet consisting of explicit focal point Beyonce Knowles Kelly Rowland, Latavia Roberson, and new member Latoya Luckett. Also, this group is now called Destiny's Child.

Their first album, also called Destiny's Child, comes out in 1998 and starts with a song called Second Nature. And that was all way too long to be the short version, but this is really good, actually. So this is Beyonce, obviously. And Beyonce is the undisputed focal point of Destiny's Child going forward, obviously. But Beyonce does not sound as dominant in 1998 as she feels now, right? No, maybe. If you didn't know anything about any of these people in 1998, you just put this Destiny's Child record on. This is a functionally brand new teenage R&B girl group from Houston, four girls on the cover.

in a straight line. Would you immediately know that the girl on the far right was the lead singer who would go solo harder than anybody has ever gone solo and dominate the Super Bowl halftime show and Coachella and win 45,000 Grammys, but not the big ones, and make like a billion dollars or whatever and marry the guy and artistically surpass the guy and not divorce the guy after the guy fucks up and instead she just makes yet another Epacal solo album about how bad, the guy fucked up. Is that all clear to you? Is it audible on album one, track one?

That's her singing right now on the Destiny's Child song Second Nature. Does that young woman delicately singing, it's such a struggle to win the reward, strike you as the woman who's going to win the reward harder than anybody ever won the reward? and break the internet a solid half dozen times and never walk in anyone's shadow and in general just be Beyonce

maybe you do maybe you would have known maybe it's obvious I'm inclined to at least pretend to be uncertain about this I dig the uncertainty of this the unstuck in time feeling to all of this everything we didn't know then

that we certainly fucking know now I dig how screwy everything about this timeline feels. Let's start actually with how old these teenagers sound. In 2006, during an interview with The Guardian, Beyonce used to do interviews. Like, someone would ask her a question and she'd answer it. That would happen several times. Like, shit is wild to me. Man, I don't know. Beyonce is talking about the Destiny Child catalog, and she says,

the first record was successful, but not hugely successful. It was a Neo Soul record, and we were 15 years old. It was way too mature for us. End quote. It's wild. Beyonce being interviewed. Beyonce in conversation with just a guy named Paul. What?

But she's right about their debut album. And her then bandmates agree with her. In 2023, Latavia Roberson told Grammy.com, A lot of people thought we were older than we were because of how sophisticated the album sounded. End quote. This song's called Tell Me. Not a whole lot of teenaged, he's so cute type energy on Tell Me. No, ma'am.

I feel like even the token attempts to make Destiny's Child sound plausibly teenaged on the first Destiny's Child record end up backfiring. Somehow. Do you want to hear Beyonce at, I guess, 15 years old, sing the world. words, nothing to do, baby, but twiddle my thumbs and wait? Sure you do. That song's called Killing Time. It was also on the Men in Black soundtrack. Beyonce singing about twiddling her thumbs sounds so screwy to me in a very amusingly disconcerting sort of way. Everything about this timeline is screwy. Destiny's Childer a hugely important moment in 90s R&B, but they do not necessarily sound or feel like a 90s group.

Do they? The first record is 1998. The second record. The writings on the wall is out in summer 1999 and sells like 13 million copies worldwide. But maybe when I say Destiny's Child, you still think 2001. You think Survivor and Bootylicious. And almost definitely you think the trio version of the group, Beyonce Kelly Rowland and Michelle Williams. Then in 2003, Beyonce goes solo harder than anybody has ever gone solo with crazy and love. And that's the end of the beginning of that. But Destiny's Child are, indeed, a hugely important moment in 90s R&B. And better yet, they capture the whole decade. They are a late 90s R&B group, hugely influenced by early 90s R&B. They are a culmination. When Girls' Time formed, all the way back in 1990, in their first

few years, the idea was to create a girl group answer to another bad creation. Hit the deck, because this is just about as 1990 as it gets. Yes, another bad creation. Six boys from Atlanta, ranging from 8 to 13 years old, discovered by Michael Bivens of Bell Biv-DeVoe and New Edition. He's cool. He's not as cool as Johnny Gill, but he's still cool. Yes, another bad creation.

ABC, the new Jack Swing Sensations responsible for the uncommonly rad hit single Aisha, which mentions monkey bars, lollipops, and a first date involving Nintendo, cereal, and a nine o'clock curfew, convincingly a song by and for children. And a song that did indeed appear on ABC's debut album, 1991's Coolin' at the Playground, you know, an album title that is not embarrassing for me to say at all.

Yeah, Girls' Time was supposed to be another bad creation plus Envogue. En Vogue, a quartet from Oakland, California, who debuted in 1990 with a song called Hold On and an album called Born to Sing. And here we set the foundation for 90s R&B girl groups. And what a delightful foundation it is, because EnVogue are weird, man. Good weird. They sing in English accents for no particular reason for unexpectedly long periods of time. they turn a 1941 song called Boogie Wogie Bugle Boy into a 1990 song called hip-hop bugle boy.

Their skits are like comedy routines. There is a chaotic golden girls via Muppet Baby's quality to the silliness of their rapport. They got lots of funny voices to deploy strategically. 1992 and Vogue are back with the album Funky Divas. And let me just go ahead and jump to my two favorite parts of of my love in parentheses, you're never going to get it. Classic era and vogue is Terry, Cindy, Maxine, and Dawn. My first favorite part of this song is when Maxine strategically deploys an extra funny voice.

Oh, man, that's so weird. It's fantastic. This also is fantastic. Now it's time for Breakdown. Breakdown. never gonna get it. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

Never. Goodness gracious. There's your 90s Girl Group Foundation. There's your silly but also ecstatic rapport. Envogra a trio now, lots of lineup changes.

Nothing gold can stay, etc. But they set the tone. Who else we got? Oh man, he's not going to play Weak by SWV again, is he?

Oh, yes, he is. From their 1992 debut album. It's about time. That's SWV with week. That song rules so hard. SWV are a trio, Cocoa, Tage, and Lili.

Lili says she decided to be a singer and started the group. After she saw Shanice on Star Search, the system works. Destiny's Child toured with SWV early on. Destiny's Child opened for SWV. I'm going to overdo this. I know this about myself.

I'm going to throw like 12 rad 90s girl group songs of you before either of us even realizes it's happening. We don't have time for this. Give me two more. Two is a manageable number of rad predestinies child girl group songs. Okay. When I die, I'd like to be reincarnated as the cowbell on Jade's Don't Walk Away.

It's just so happy. It's perfect. Jade, a trio from Chicago, Joy, Die, and Tanya. Their 1992 debut album is called Jade to the Max. the machine backstage rancor aspect got a little out of hand with jade there's a lot of legal

suing each other type action with jade still I think I recoiled from that information instinctively I was like don't tell me about any of that I just wanted to hear the cowbell last one

this is obvious obviously but it does strike me as necessary I guess the easiest way to trace the arc of R&B and girl group R&B in particular from 1990 to 1999 is to just say TLC. That's what about your friends from TLC's 1992 debut.

I don't have any problem saying this title either. It's not embarrassing. Ooh, on the TLC tip, 7-0s, 3Hs, buoyancy, youth primary colors, the giant overalls. Yeah, 1994. TLC put out crazy, sexy, cool, waterfalls, et cetera. Now they're superstars. Now they're much, much, much bigger and also sleeker, smooth. more bombastic.

1999 TLC put out fan mail. No scrubs, etc. Now they're making the sleekest, most bombastic music you ever heard. I said I'd play you two songs, but I'm playing you three. I'm sorry, but this is still an extraordinary amount of

restraint shown by me. No Scrubs was the future, man. TLC sounded like the future. TLC created the future. TLC due to the unimaginably tragic loss of Lisa Left Eye Lopez did not really get to experience to enjoy the future TLC created.

Neither did Aaliyah for that matter. Fortunately, by the late 90s, TLC and Alia and Missy Elliott and a few dozen other artists, I won't lay on you now because I'm exhibiting a heroic amount of restraint. They all had some help in creating the future. Turns out this was the future as well. and perhaps this turned out to be the most the future of them all. Destiny's Child in 1998, on their first album and on their first big hit song,

No, No, No. They sound like teenagers, and they sound like 40-year-old quiet storm veterans, and they sound like the next mega-huge R&B girl group, and they sound like the machine that is now controlled in large part by Matthew Knowles, and his then wife, Beyonce's mother, Miss Tina Knowles, who runs a Houston hair salon and handles most of the styling. Plus a small army of producers, songwriters, and major label overseers, of course. Machine-wise, producer-wise, Dwayne Wiggins from the great Oakland R&B group,

Tony, Tony, Tony is a huge factor in this first album. The machine decides that Destiny's Child is too ballad heavy. And so Wycliffe John, he of the Fugis, is enlisted for an up-tempo re-tempo. remix, which is how the slow version becomes No, No, No, No, Part 1, and this becomes No, No, No, Part 2. And here's where we're going, and where Destiny's Child is going, and where Beyonce is going. And yeah, it's Beyonce is going to take us where we're going. The key to maximizing Beyonce's potential in this era is to speed up the tempo until she is singing so fast that she's basically rapping.

I know you want me up to see it in your eyes, but you keep on fron and what you're sales on your mind because each every time you need me, you give me signs. But when I ask you, what's the deal you hold all inside? Here's where we're really going. Like she said, the first Destiny's Child Record in 98 is successful, but not hugely successful. And this is a person, and for a little while at least,

this is a group, who divides everything she does into two categories, successful and hugely successful. The second Destiny's Child album, The Writings on the Wall, comes out in July 1999. And yeah, here's what hugely successful sounds like. I want to thank you for having me organize this meeting. You're here today. Sorry, that's the cheesy mob boss intro to the writings on the wall.

That intro is the JZest thing about Beyonce. in 1999. I will not be elaborating on that. We don't have time for that either. I just wanted you to know that I know that. Okay. Destiny's Child, still a quartet of Beyonce, Kelly, Latoya,

and Latavia on this record. But Latoya and Latavia will split from the group while this record is still generating bonkers hit singles in large part, reportedly, because they do not want Matthew Knowles to personally manage them anymore. Destiny's Child,

the machine wields much more power than the non-Bioncé sectors of Destiny's Child, the Group at this point, and also at all previous and subsequent points. But Destiny's Child, the group does flaunt a great deal more personality on this record, a swagger, but also a silliness. And if I had to sum up that personality in one word, that word would be automobiles. It's a great word. Put automobiles in the dictionary. Put it in the Louvre. Bills, Bills is Destiny's Child's first number one single. What else? We got Missy Elliott on this record, writing and producing and guest starring on confessions. And man, there's nothing cooler than hearing Missy Elliott's writing and performing voice melded with other people's voices, especially when Destiny's Child are the other voices. The funniest song on the writings on the wall is for sure Bugaboo, though.

just for the delightful cascade of 1999 ass references that animate Bugaboo. Like imagine you're walking down the street and out of nowhere you get clonked in the head with the pager, Beyonce, just threw out the window. You want absolute maximum 1999, though. Destiny's Child singing AOL is weapons grade 1999. Beyonce making AOL email jokes. That is maximum 1999. But it is also somehow the future. Beyonce making AOL email jokes preferably at a brisk, basically rapping tempo.

That's what we want. That's what we deserve. One number one song of this record ain't going to cut it, though. If hugely successful is the bar, and it is, then this record needs an even huger, hugely successful number one song. Kind of shady, ain't calling me, baby, why the sudden change. There it is. Say My Name is co-written by Destiny's Child, along with Lashon Daniels, Fred Jerkins III, and his brother, Rodney Jerkins, aka Dark Child. Dark Child produced it.

Machine-wise, gossip-wise, politics-wise. Say My Name is the song with the video, where Latoya and Latavia suddenly aren't in Destiny's Child anymore. And now Michelle Williams and Farah Franklin are in Destiny's Child instead. But pretty soon Farah Franklin will not be in Destiny's Child anymore either, because that is how this band rolls. Destiny's Child rolls over you. Perhaps, maybe, eventually. if you cannot sing in a brisk, basically rapping tempo like Beyonce does.

And basically nobody else can do that like Beyonce does it. And so, therefore, look out. I mean, people love, say, Fleetwood Mac, in a large part because of the bonkers romantic infighting, the rancor, the heartbreak, the hatred, the incestuousness that proved to be as fascinating and artistically gratifying as the art. Maybe some people found the incestuousness more gratifying as art, as performance art. Oasis songs are great, but Gallagher brother, press insults, directed at one another will always be the sweetest music I've ever heard. Remember when Liam

would just tweet a giant picture of Noel's head and just write potato? It's like people who love following the NBA, the trade rumors, the scandals, the feuds, the I just did your fucking podcast type tweets. I am one of those people, by the way. I have read many more articles about James Hardin than I have watched games in which James Hardin played. You get me, the lurid, distracting backstage soap opera sometimes just becomes the opera. The thing behind the thing becomes the thing. And why would that not be true here? With Destiny's Child, with a hilariously tumultuous and Machiavellian R&B group with a solid decade of sorted chaotic prehistory of ferocious gamesmanship in which nobody wins except the one person and the real story,

which is that person going solo harder than anybody ever went solo. That ain't even happened yet. The Destiny's Child Machine did not distract from or compete with Destiny's Child. The chaos of the machine has always been essential to the greatness. And, yes, the elegance of the music. Because everything about that line delivery is perfect. Right? The righteous goofiness of it. Aha.

Yeah. Okay. That's how dudes talk. That's how we talk. It's over. She got us. The joyfully pissed off tumble of at the crib with another lady. Say my name sounded like the future to me.

All 500,000 times I heard it on the radio between the end of the 20th century and the start of the 21st. And my impulse in general is to focus entirely on the song out of respect for this song, filtering out all the rumors and legal battles and calamity. But say my name revels in that calamity. subtly, subconsciously, the past decade of calamity and the several decades of calamity yet to come. Destiny's Child is about to become a trio. Beyonce is about to start doing Beyonce type shit. After a while, Destiny's Child will no longer be necessary at all.

So it's up to you, I guess, whether you hear this song as the camaraderie between four people or the ongoing unrelenting dominance of one person. It's up to you whether the drama backstage overpowers the drama on stage. Fixate on anybody and look in any direction. You will still be enjoying one of the great operas of our time. As a bonus, this part of the song is even brisker. Beyonce told The Guardian that she hated the original production of Say My Name. She said, there was just too much stuff going on.

it. It just sounded like this jungle, end quote. And then Rodney Jerkins redid virtually every piece of it. And then everyone loved it. And that's that. But I enjoy the busyness, the clamor, the frantic strings, the boing, the slightly too much stuff vibe of the final version. All that discarded too much stuff is still there and it's always there even if you can't quite hear it you know what i want actually footage of girls time on star search but actually the camera's just on the girls time machine the cameras on matthew knolls and the other parents and all these other adults who know what's at stake in literally the next two minutes as all that pre-teen hip-hop rapin transpires the cameras the cameras on the parents when Girls' Time lose to those roundabouts late 20-somethings from Detroit with all those

acoustic guitars. It's not Schadenfreude that makes me want to watch this because we know now that Girls' Time on Star Search is a crushing loss that lays the groundwork for an unprecedented string of world-conquering victories or world-conquering victories for some people. Anyway, maybe just the one person. Maybe Star Search is the precise moment when Beyonce decided. never to walk in anyone's shadow. And maybe what makes say my name so great is that you can hear her stepping that much closer to the light.

We are honored to be joined by Jill Hopkins, a journalist, podcast host, DJ and Civics Events, producer at the legendary Metro in Chicago. Jill, welcome. Thank you so much for being here. Thanks for having me, Rob. I'm excited.

I'm excited, too. You hosted this great making Beyonce podcast, sort of tracing the history of girls' time in very early Destiny's Child. And I'm curious about the tension between these groups as groups, you know, as combinations of super talented people versus these groups as just Beyonce delivery systems, right? Like, I don't mean to diminish anyone else's contributions, but like every behind-the-scenes person in this podcast at some point says like, and then Beyonce sang it and everything changed. Like, how does a group function when one member is so dominant? I mean, we could ask Mary Wells. We could ask for it's Ballard. But I mean, this is definitely, I love that phrase, a Beyonce delivery system.

Because at times, it really did feel like, you know, this was just a vehicle for, you know, the Beyonce show. But I don't think it started off like that. I do believe that Girls' Time was kind of one of those, not cattle call necessarily, but like kind of a curated cattle call. Right. Where, you know, they scoured the church talent shows and the elementary school recitals and things like that to bring the cream of the crop of Houston. And so it wasn't obvious from the beginning that Beyonce was going to be the Beyonce of her group. but I think once they got in front of other people and there was less of an individual dynamic when they were starting to mesh as a group, it became obvious that there was more something with this girl than there was for the rest of them. Not that there was nothing with the rest of them.

They all had it going on. But she was, there was really something special there and you could see it right away. Yeah, because Ashley Davis is a major voice. in this show, you know, Atavia is there, so is Kelly. You know, I think clearly we don't talk enough about Beyonce's bandmates, about the band. Like, what did the others

bring to this group as this group evolved? What made them such great collaborators with her, at least for a time? I think just, well, the main thing was that their voices sounded great together. There was some top-notch, very sophisticated harmonization going on

there, that sometimes you don't hear unless it's like a family band where everybody has like the same vocal range because they have the same DNA or something like that. Like the Jackson 5 sounded really good singing together because they all basically had five of the same singing voice. So it really was something to behold

for some girls so young to just kind of lock in with that much skill and sophistication. Also, there's a camaraderie that exists with growing up together. as opposed to coming in after something's already been established, you're going through some of the biggest milestones you'll ever go through in your career and in your human body. You're like, oh, puberty and stardom?

Great. Give me both of them at the exact same time. So, you know, there's probably a bit of trauma bonding there for the girls that made them just like really, just really, even in interviews, really interesting to watch together. Right, right. And they just seem like they were having a really good time. Like, I think that either they were fantastic actors for their age.

And knowing what we know about Beyonce, I don't think she was a fantastic actor even then. Fair enough. That's fair. That's fair. But I just think that they just really got along and wanted, they all wanted it. Right.

None of them seemed like they were being forced to be there by some, you know, grown up in their lives that was forcing this upon them. They all wanted to be there. They all wanted it. They were all glad that it was working out. Nobody secretly wanted out. And, yeah, that showed to the folks. It's funny that it can be both like they're having a great time, but also trauma bonding at the exact same time. You know, this all mesh together. It's like working in a restaurant. There you go. You're having a great time. You're making money. But Jesus Christ, what is this going to be done? Matthew Knowles is a major voice in this podcast, and he's a complicated figure. He's a huge success. You know, he advocated for his daughter, but, you know, he took control of this group. He kicked a lot of people out. He pissed a lot of people off. He was a drill sergeant. You know, his daughter will kind of sort of fire him eventually.

But, like, a lot before that, do you see him as a hero in this story or as an anti-hero? Like, is he sympathizing? Like, is he sympathetic, sympathetic figure to you, or does he not need sympathy, really? I don't think he wants sympathy necessarily, because that would imply that there's some sort of victimhood that I don't think he's ever claimed to have. I think he wants to be respected when talking about Destiny's Child and Beyonce and Solange. I think that he sees himself as kind of a Barry Gordy type. Absolutely, yeah. and wants to be treated as such, although that's, you know, delusion is not just a cologne. Yes.

But, I mean, there's no arguing that there's no, Beyonce, there's no Destiny's Child without the extraordinarily large amounts of very hard work and like his family's life savings, basically, to go to bat for. his daughter's dream. So, got to give that to the guy. It's probably not great, but like, he was... We all have our faults. You know, it's... None of us are perfect. No, no.

Not even Matthew Knowles. Yes. Although still, maybe not the worst husband that Tina knows has ever had. Yeah, no. That's, it's ongoing. That's an ongoing conversation. It's a, it's a battle. I love the way you talk about the back.

backstage intrigue and the infighting of girls' time especially, like all these managers and producers and parents fighting for control. Sometimes when there's a lot of gossip and combativeness around a group, it affects the way I hear the music. Like I can hear all that noise. Like, is even early Destiny's Child changed somewhat by all like the lineup changes and the conflict, or does all that extra musical stuff just give the music more depth?

I don't think that I knew necessarily about all of that stuff in real time. Like, I was an adult with my own problems. I couldn't have time to like delve into celebrity gossip in the way that I like. But thinking back on it and like knowing what we know now and being able to hear the actual lineup changes making a difference. I think the early stuff, there's like a tension there that is weird because they were children. They're like 14 and 15 years old singing these very sensual songs. So I think the tension that probably existed just swirling around them probably helped in the delivery of these very sexual tension-filled songs.

So why not take your band tension and make it, I don't know, sensuous. That's what Fleetwood Mac did. That is certainly what they did. That's what plenty of people did. That first Destiny's Child Record, especially, like, I'm fascinated by how old, how mature it sounds and feels. Like, you talk about the importance of the No, No, No remix, you know, Wycleft's remix being up-tempo, you know, they couldn't just do ballads. Like, whose idea was the maturity, like the slowness, the elegance of that first record? Like, why does this record made by teenagers sound like a record made by 40-year-olds?

I think the girls themselves were very musically curious. They were attracted to the production and to the beats and to the melodies and things. And then when we got into the lyrical content, that's when it becomes obvious that these 15-year-old girls are surrounded by 35-year-old men. And so now these men are now in charge of deciding what it is. is that they and their peers want to hear. They weren't necessarily making music for other 14-year-old girls, although that's who was buying a lot of it. They were also making, you know, like red light specials, you know, quiet storm stuff as well. But I think there was a lot of say from folks like Wyclef and from folks like, you know, their producers, their other producers, their managers,

the focus groups, the labels, to sound older because they weren't trying to like market a teeny popper group necessarily. Right. Like the clip I've seen around and I think you used it. Like it's the four of them on camera and they're saying like, yeah, we're starting a new era. We're bringing it back to the real music of the 70s. And I was like, do teenagers in the 90s talk like that unprompted? I don't know that they do. I mean, there was definitely that 70s resurgence I remember in high school. I do remember finding out that I could fit into my mom's old clothes and being super stoked about it. Sure.

But yeah, nobody's unless you're the kind of person, and maybe they are who was always listening to somebody like Herb Kent here in Chicago who was like the king of the dusties and like a very legendarily Venus flytrap type of DJ. So maybe they'd heard that sort of stuff on the. radio and they were just trying to be very suave with it and sound more adult than they were. But like, no, kids weren't just being like, yeah, I'm going to take this back. Nobody talks like Dolomite in high school. It just doesn't happen. I'm relieved to hear you say that. I was wondering if it was just me, but it's nice to have that

validated that that doesn't actually happen. When did you first encounter Destiny's child? Like, when did you first hear Beyonce's voice? And like, did you understand what you were hearing immediately? I don't always remember the first time I hear songs, but I definitely remember the first time I hear what I heard no, no, no. I was very underage. And my roommate and I were going. I want to say it was like Thanksgiving or Thanksgiving times.

And we were in another friend's car going to this club. called Biology Bar. It was a science themed dance club. So picture that. I am, actually. And we were going to see Biz Marquis DJ that night. Okay. And so in the car, just on the radio, probably WGCI. It's a new, hot, new hotness. And it was no, no, no. And I think that that maybe is the ideal circumstance to hear a song like that. It, it's, it's, it. It's, it. Yeah, absolutely is. That is a very, that's a delightfully vivid image your painting there. That's perfect. And then when I heard Jump and Jumpin, I was like, oh, this is a song about that day. Yes. They wrote a song about us that day. How was Biz Marquis? Was he, was he good? Oh, he was great. He was great. Like, you don't always want the DJ to also have a microphone, but if it's Bismarkey, you definitely, definitely want that. There we go. He can have a microphone.

It was very fun, very fun. Skypoint to the Pismarck. Yeah, yeah. How did you see the girl group progression across the 90s? Let's say, like, Envogue, TLC, SWV, and Destiny's Child. Like, how were Destiny's Child a continuation of 90s R&B, and how are they immediately different? So, have you seen the Star Search video that's out of them? I have.

It's delightful, first of all. It is. It is extremely delightful. But you can see just in how they're dressed and how they're styled and how they're dancing that those girls have been mainlining. Ooh, on the TLC tip 24-7. Absolutely. Absolutely. Like, 1992. Yes. This is definitely an album that they were very much into, definitely a style they were very much into. Lots of neon.

The colors. The colors, they all kind of look like Ashley Banks from Fresh Prince of Belmont. Just like six very pretty young black girls who were on a steady diet of pop music. And then as they got older and, you know, they were becoming other people's influences. You could see them kind of digging back into kind of mature and vogue kind of a thing. but I think they really were at their best when they were like a, you know, like Envogue slash, um, Envogue slash, uh, Salt and Pepper, What a Man times. Sure, sure.

That felt like the most fun you could have making R&B music. And when, when Destiny's Child was being that, when they were channeling that vibe, I think they were at their best. So they were, they took a little from everybody and made it their, own little matching outfit, vocal harmony kind of thing. And we're seeing still girls solo and group, like drawing back from that now. And it's nice to see. Yeah, when you were talking about, like the harmonies, like the family feeling harmonies that they had, like Envogue felt like a cut above, you know, even when I was 13. And they were sophisticated, but they were also really

goofy in a way that I really responded to. Like, there was a... silliness to them in addition to a sophistication. And I feel like Destiny's Child sort of were one of the few groups from the 90s to really nail both halves of that, you know, like they could be adults, but they could be kids simultaneously almost. Oh, yeah. They were, I mean, when I think of like the video for Survivor and they're like crawling out of the water and I'm just like, this is ridiculous.

There's no way that they think we're, like it's the top of the video. We're not taking this seriously for the next three and a half minutes. And they had to know that. But as I think when they started putting out their own solo work, they got into like a serious thing. But Destiny's Child at its core is just is party music. I don't think people talk about the Destiny's Child ballads when they're talking about Destiny's Child. Yeah.

I just love your play-by-play of Star. search, right, and how it goes wrong. And I'm sort of wondering what happens if Girls Time win Star Search. And they get signed and Matthew Knowles doesn't feel compelled to take things over. And now you've got like a six person group on a major label like as tweens in 1992. Like on a long enough timeline, do we still get to Beyonce solo and everything after? Like, does it change a lot if Girl Time wins or does it not really change anything? I think you hit it on the head. It just kind of accelerates the whole thing. We still get, I think we get to four people faster. We get to three people even faster than that. Six is too many. Six is too many. Six is a lot of people. Yeah. Even like you think about, you know, all the boy bands and things. Those are, we top out at five if we're really trying to like market. Five is barely sustainable on itself. Yeah. Three makes it easier to pick a favorite. you know, you can

you know, compartmentalize your merch buying opportunities. But I do think that we get there eventually. We get to, there's only one way this is going to go and it was the, you know, Diana Ross. Right, right, as you said. Right. Yeah, there's, there's, there's, when they finally got around to like, I think it was around 2000 or so,

when they got persuaded to each put out a solo album. And that was basically the label saying like, okay, which horse are we going to back here with all of our resources? And we got to know them each on like an individual level. You know, now we see that Kelly's, you know, gospel background is serving her really well. And that Beyonce has the capability to just command the screen with just, you know, her charisma and everything like that. But we would have gotten there. eventually. There's no, there's no other, there's no other job that Beyonce Knowles can have other than being Beyonce Knowles. Like what was she going to do? Sell cars. Like she's, this is like, I would have bought a car from Beyonce probably, if given a chance. Oh, she'd be great at it. Don't get me wrong. But what did Thanos say? He's an inevitability. That is what he said. And Beyonce and Thanos, I do think, have a lot in common now that I think about it.

Am I correct in stating, Jill, that you have seen Beyonce live quite recently? You have the look of someone who's seen Beyonce live quite recently. I did. Today is Thursday, and I just saw her on Sunday night. I'm very jealous. It was a last-minute thing. I didn't buy the expensive tickets when they went on sale because I am a freelance music journalist and I can't afford that sort of.

There's a budget issue. Yes, of course. But we were out and about at a friend's burlesque show on Saturday night and somebody was like is Beyonce in town tomorrow too? And I said yes. And then just on a whim checked

the ticket master site and they had gone down to regular person prices. Right, right. Well below original face. And, you know, going to be eating ramen for a bit here, but it was worth it. So worth it. So worth it. I want you to be able to experience it yourself. I do too. The closest I could get was Pittsburgh and she canceled Pittsburgh because I think the prices got down a little bit too close to regular person.

You know what I'm saying? I do. I think Pittsburgh, I think we all screwed up Pittsburgh wise. It's too bad. That's too bad. I mean, get it together, Pittsburgh. I'll say, it's true. It's hard to hear, but it's true. I have not heard or read much about this tour, but like, does the Destiny's Child era play a factor in this show at all? Like, does Beyonce in 2023 start with crazy and love? Or is her distant past still a somewhat modest part of her present? We didn't get anything pre-crazy in love. She does do Crazy in Love. And it's a big deal. Like, there's like, of course. Four or five different acts within this very long show with video interludes. And, you know, they have to reset the stage and everybody has to change costumes and la da da. And so she finishes like the third act with Crazy in Love.

And any like significant other of anybody there who had not been on their feet losing their minds or, definitely brought to their feet by the opening horns of crazy love. But she didn't pull out any Destiny Charlotte. She has before. Like, um, even when she did, uh, Coachella, she had Kelly and Michelle come out. Homecoming. Yeah, yeah. And, um, yeah. And she, she was very, uh, she was doubling down on Renaissance, I guess, because there's no music videos for Renaissance. So she wanted to give the people that. Uh, She got into some of the stuff from Black as King and from lemonade. But it was, I think, the kind of past that she was looking at is the cultural history of like house music and queer dance culture. And I don't think there was much room for Destiny Child in that conversation.

But I don't think anybody was complaining. Nobody was like, oh, sure could have used Bugaboo. Sure could have heard Freakum Tress. That would have been really hidden right now. No offense to Bugaboo, but yeah, we're fine without hearing. And all the ballads, too, as you say, we could probably just set aside all the early. And she, I mean, she opened with a couple of ballads. It was a beautiful night on the lake.

There's a cool breeze running through. You don't have to brag about it, but okay. I have to. I think I do have to, though, a little bit. That is a crucial part of the concert going experience with Beyonce's about just to brag. Delusion is not just a cologne. That's wonderful. Is it a cologne?

I don't even know if that's true. It should be. If it isn't, it should be. It's been wonderful to talk to you, Jill. Thank you so much. Thank you. Have a great day.

You too. Thanks very much to our guest this week, Jill Hopkins. Thanks very much to our producers, Justin Sales and Jonathan Kerma. thanks to Chloe Clark for additional production help, and thanks very much to you for listening. And now without further ado, I suggest you go listen to Say My Name by Destiny's Child. We'll see you next week.