60 Songs That Explain the '90s - Shakira — “Hips Don’t Lie”

Episode Date: May 13, 2026

This episode is for the ladies up in here tonight! Before her hips became internationally renowned, Shakira was making Spanish rock music from the age of 14. Today, Rob looks back at her crossover album 'Laundry Service,' which was released as other Latin American artists were also starting to make music in English. Later, he is joined by music journalist Suzy Exposito, who talks about why Shakira deserves to be in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, her initial disappointment when Shakira dyed her hair blonde and started singing in English, and what it was like getting to interview her. Host: Rob Harvilla Producers: Julianna Ress, Olivia Crerie, Chris Sutton, and Justin Sayles Additional Video Editing: Kevin Pooler Guest: Suzy Exposito Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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I have to admit that he annoyed me at first, like really annoyed me. Then I got over it and I made my piece with him and I mostly managed to ignore him. Then I got his album and I unexpectedly totally loved it and I still do. And so now I love him and I even love it when he annoys me because he still kind of annoys me sometimes. I have to admit. What is Wyclef Jean? Clef Jean bringing to the table here, precisely. I wondered that, at first.

Here we have superstar South Orange, New Jersey hip-hop trio Fugis, with their transcendent and only slightly annoying to me at first cover of killing me softly with his song, off their Blockbuster 1996 album, The Score. The Fugis consist of Praz Michelle, who is currently inaudible, Ms. Lauren Hill, who is currently singing transcendently, and Wyclef John, who is currently going one time, two times in the background and really annoying me at first. Killing Me Softly with His Song, made famous by Roberta Flack in 1973, and first released by

Lori Lieberman in 1972. Lori is also a co-writer. She was inspired after seeing Don McLean in concert. I didn't know that. Don McLean, the American Pie guy. If you ever want to be killed not so softly with a song, listen to somebody attempt American Pie at karaoke, or even worse, attempt to sing it yourself. Way too many verses. American Pie is 45 minutes long, and it will not softly kill you the whole time, despite Wycliffe-Jean's undeniable essential role in the Fugis as rapper, lead singer, producer, co-writer, co-founder, and so forth, I primarily experienced him at first as the dude tossing in annoying extraneous ad libs as Lauren Hill sang transcendently.

That's another big hit off the score called Ready or Not, featuring objectively the coolest Enya sample of all time. No offense to Lilby. And of course, with the fullness of time, I've come to respect, to appreciate. I've come to cherish all the ad libs on the score, all the cross talk, the relentless interweaving of voices, the elegant chaos, the magnificent camaraderie between Wyclef, Lauren, and Praz, as they hype each other up and whatnot. I cherish the Fuji's camaraderie because it won't last for very long. And in the fullness of time, I especially come to appreciate Wyclef Jean's casually absurdly charming rapport with everybody, including himself. I dig it on the Fuji song Manifest when Wyclef starts rapping too intensely,

and he tells himself to calm down. Christ, took a sip of the arm of reddo, passed it down the table, said today I be betrayed by one of you 12 disciples. Give me a clue who could do. more rappers should tell themselves to more often. I made my piece with Wyclef on the score, with Wyclef constantly charmingly inserting himself into the non-YClef focused parts of Fuji's songs. But I truly fell in love with him when I was watching MTV

at an unsavory hour, and I caught the video for a solo Wyclef song called Anything Can Happen, where he tells us to make room five times in the first 10 seconds. I got the sculley to my face. You know, make room, make room, make room, make room, make room. We can't stop to shine. Here we have Anything Can't Happen from Wycliffe John's first solo album, released in 1997 and called The Carnival. Or I guess technically it's called Wycliffe John presents the Carnival. featuring refugee All-Stars, but I'm not going to say all that again.

And I have to admit that those first 10 seconds annoyed me at first. The barrage of ad-libs and catchphrases and demands. Stop telling me to make room. Why, Clef Jean? I am not in your way. I am not trying to stop the shining. But within three minutes I loved this song, anything can happen, and I still do. The deft rascally little horn riff, the insoucients

bounce and Wycliffe tossing out a new catchphrase every 10 seconds or so. Sitting there watching MTV at an unsavory hour, I thought every man got disciples was quite profound. I really dug the carnival anything can happen. video as well, which seemed to indicate that Wycleft John was a great hang, a gracious party host, a skilled mingler, a consummate entertainer capable of working up some magnificent camaraderie with everyone. I watch Wyclef gracefully roller skating around, and I can't help but think that he and I would really get along. Toward the end of this song, he asks a bunch of

questions and whether it's 1997 or 2026 the answers here remain no and hell no Blackleff John's 1997 debut solo album, The Carnival, and I flip out some more. In terms of Fuji's solo albums, look, I won't tell you that the carnival is better than the miseducation of Warren Hill, because that would be insane. But I will say that I prefer the carnival to the actual Big Fuji's album, to the score, which is also insane, but at least it's true. Yo, White Clef, it's time that I confess to all a girl. Don't do it, don't do it.

So all the girls I love before. That's the first 12 seconds of Wyclef's version of To All the Girls. Shout out Julio Iglesias and Willie Nelson. I love the Don't Do It, Don't Do It. I love it that Wycleft's still trying to convince himself to calm down, and it still ain't working. Now I'm 100% invested in all his cross-talk and catchphrases and demands. Here's a song called Year of the Dragon, featuring Ms. Lauren Hill.

where Wyclef demands that we lock our doors six times in ten seconds. At least this time it's pretty good advice. Yes, yes. Yo, lock your door. Lock your door. And what I come to appreciate in Wycliffe is the casual way he can make a hook out of anything. Even the throat clearing first 30 to 60 seconds of his songs are full full of tossed-off earworm-type delights that still rattle around in my head sometimes,

which of course means that when he finally tries to deliver a straightforward monster hook-filled chorus on a relatively straightforward monster pop song, it turns out he's ridiculously good at it. That's gone till November. That's gone till November. That's the song off the carnival that still especially kills me softly. Though my favorite part of this song now is when Wycleft stops preaching about safe sex long enough to insult various unnamed sucker MCs. Tell my cousin Cherry

We wear his condom If you don't wear condom You see a red run Oh oh oh oh oh oh You suck a emcees you got no flow I heard you style you S o S o There's me at Target

buying cat litter singing Whoa Oh oh You sucker emsies You got no flow Also I thought Wycliffe was saying

If you don't wear condom You see a red line There He is not He's not he's not saying red line wish I didn't know now what I didn't know then

for our purposes today however the most important song on the carnival is Wyclef's version of the now nearly century old Cuban anthem Guantanamara in which Wyclef meets cute with a nice young lady despite its significant language barrier

Do you speak English? Can I buy you a drink? So the nice young lady sings I am a sincere woman from where the palm trees grow. Lyrics from the canonical version of Guantanamara, basically. And meanwhile, Wyclef, well, Wyclef's doing the best he can. Though I'm pretty sure Wyclef, John, is only pretending there's a language barrier. Wyclef was born in Haiti, and back in 2016, he did a viral sway-in-the-morning freestyle

where he rapped fluently in English, Creole, German, Japanese, and Spanish. I love the carnival. It's vivacity, its density, its silliness even amidst its self-seriousness. The Carnival is out in 1997. The Miseducation of Lauren Hill is out in 1998. The third Fuji's album is out never. I think it's safe to say for various personal and legal type reasons. But that's all right, because Wycliffe is a quintuple threat, rapper, singer, producer, guitar player, hook provider,

who plays well with various others. Here's Wyclef on the 1997 Destiny's Child song, No, No, No, Part 2, helpfully repeatedly announcing that it's the remix. Very helpful. Wyclef's got great rapport with Destiny's Child, though in the late 90s and early 2000s, Wyclef quickly establishes that he's got great rapport with pretty much anybody,

and on a flamboyantly international scale. Wyclef works with Cuban-American pop crossover legend Gloria Estefan. He works with beloved hot pink Harlem rap ambassador Cameron. He works with Puerto Rican reggaeton Titan Ivy Queen. He works with extra loquacious Jamaican-American battle rapper Cannabis. He works with Senegalese superstar Yusindor. He works with Hong Kong American rapper Jin. He works with Ziggy Marley and the Melodymakers

who are primarily, if not entirely, Jamaican. He works with Bono, who is Irish. Wyclef remixes another one Bites the Dust, a song by noted English rock band Queen. I didn't know he did that, and I don't need to hear that necessarily. And I don't need to hear that Bono. song again either, but nonetheless. The turn of the century is a golden era for delightfully chaotic boundary crossing pop superstar team ups. And if Wycleft John's voice is the first voice you hear,

you are guaranteed to tremendously enjoy yourself and or sell a whole shitload of records. Observe. Ladies and gents, turn on the sound system to this sound of Carver Santana. Yes, indeed. Here we have Wyclef Jean, a young American self-styled ghetto blues duo called the Product GnB, and Mexican-American Rock and Roll Hall of Fame guitar god Carlos Santana, joining forces on the number one pop hit Maria Maria. From the ludicrous blockbuster 1997 Santana comeback album, Supernatural, Which, let me check here. Yeah, as of today, Supernatural has won 195 Grammys and sold 900 million copies. Probably will be up to 200 Grammys won and 1 billion copies sold by the time you hear this.

Maria Maria is the most streamed song on the Supernatural album. Now, Maria Maria has more Spotify streams than Smooth, the Santana and Rob Thomas number one pop hit of some of some. renown. In the year 2000, Wyclef follows that up with his second solo album, which is called, brace yourself for this, the eclectic, two sides to a book, which is styled the eclectic hyphen, numeral two sides, Roman numeral to a book. Wyclef's got a bunch of new friends now. Hey, look who it is. You got to know when to hold a. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No when to fold on. D. Jays, DJs. No when to walk away.

No when to run. It's Kenny Rogers. Rest in peace. Here we have Wyclef tossing in charming, semi-intrusive ad libs like hip-hop and DJs and Soundboy alongside extra-smooth Houston-born country legend Kenny Rogers, an extra loquacious queen's rap legend, Faro Manch, on a song literally called Kenny Rogers' Ferromanch dubplate. Hey, look who else it is. If tomorrow is judgment day.

Night is in the air. And I'm standing on the front of line. Hey, yo! And the Lord asks me what I did with my life. I would say, why I'd clep murdered a sound boy. It's Whitney Houston. Rest in peace. It's a short, eclectic track called Whitney Houston dubplate.

An acapella rework of 1998's top five Whitney Houston hit, My Love Is Your Love, written and produced by Wyclef and his cousin, Jerry Wanda Duplessis, Jerry Wanda, the Fuji's bassist and producer and frequent Wyclef co-conspirator. The Ecclactic album also features contributions from Earth, Wind, and Fire, and Mary J. Blige, and The Rock, back when The Rock was a huge wrestling star, but not yet a huge movie star. Listen, it is a new millennium. The world is shrinking, thanks in part to the internet,

an unalloyed force for good in the world now and forever. Various spheres of global pop superstardom are frequently intersecting and blending and mutating. With so many international pop crossover events, that the very notion of a pop crossover is growing increasingly, if not yet entirely, obsolete. And Wyclef Jeanne is a multi-exam. multi-hyphenate proven pop hitmaker who can pop up anywhere and hang out with anyone and yell all sorts of random dumb initially annoying but ultimately weirdly absolutely essential shit on gargantuan hit pop songs and so there was simply nobody else on earth in 2006 who could have delivered this simple timeless and yes absolutely necessary two word

message. No fighting. Ladies up in here tonight. No fighting. No fighting. No fighting. Shakira, Shakira. My name is Rob Harvilla. This is the 45th episode of 60 songs that explained the 90s, Cole in the 2000s. And this week we are discussing Hips Don't Lie by Shakira, featuring Wycliffe Sean, a bonus track on the 2006 reissue of Shakira's

2005 album Oral Fixation Volume 2. Shakira will sing the chorus now. I'm on tonight, you know my hips don't lie and I'm starting to feel it's right. All the attraction, attention, don't you see, baby, this is perfection. Wyclef is still chanting, no fightin, as Shakira starts the chorus. Incredible dedication from that guy. Hips Don't Lie is the best pop song in history to rhyme tension and perfection. I checked.

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It was the cool issue of Rolling Stone featuring a list of the 50 coolest albums of all time. The coolest album of all time is apparently white light, white heat by the Velvet Underground, and the 50th coolest album of all time is You Can Dance. by Madonna, her 1987 remix album. I'm pretty sure Madonna by herself has 50 albums cooler than you can dance, but they're the experts. The first paragraph of Shakira's Rolling Stone cover story reads as follows. Quote, Shakira was about 12, living in her hometown, an industrial backwater port city in Colombia called Berengia,

when she started to feel strange sensations inside her body. The feeling was somewhere in her gut, and she experienced it every time she heard the guitar solo in guess the song Shakira's talking about here. She told her mother, Mom, I feel something so overwhelming every time I listen to that guitar solo. Shakira's mother didn't know what to say. The girl began listening to the song over and over, just so she could be touched again in that special way by that mysterious guitar. I still feel it, Shakira says, now, rolling her eyes back and humming the riff. That's how I discovered there was something in the electric guitar that was really powerful. End quote.

Did you guess this song with a guitar solo that changed Shakira's life when she was 12 years old? Great job if you did. I would not have guessed this. Depeche Mode. Enjoy the silence. from their 1990 album Violator. Phenomenal choice. 12-year-old Shakira has got exquisite taste

in life-changing pop songs with overwhelming mysterious electric guitars. The hypnotic simplicity and the legitimate spiritual profundity of that guitar riff. Do do do do do do. That melody feels like an ancient, universal, omnidoniminational prayer.

It feels, older and wiser than the earth itself. He enjoyed the silence video. Also, Dave Ghan of Depeche Mode, dressed as a king with a robe and a crown, carrying a chair and hiking through various breathtaking natural solitary vistas, mountains and beaches and gorgeous sunsets amidst rad trees and whatnot. And occasionally, King Dave just plops the chair down and has a good sit. The Enjoy the Silence video has potential life-changing process.

properties as well. You might achieve a oneness with the earth. You might convince yourself that the earth was created specifically to achieve a oneness with you. That angelic chanting vocal riff as well. Enjoy the silence will convince you that God is real, even if Catholic school didn't. That's late in the video. King Dave's hiking up a snowy mountain peak. Fun fact, here's a no longer 12-year-old Shakira on that exact same snowy mountain peak in 2001. Did you know on that last line she's singing, Thereover, Here Under? Thereover, one word, here under, one word.

I dig pop songs that invent their own vocabulary. That's not the same mountain. Obviously, that's a mountain on a computer. That's a mountain on a 2001 computer. This, of course, is Shakira's 2001 English-language breakout smash hit, whenever, wherever. The flute riff that triumphantly concludes each triumphant chorus. I believe that's a Cana flute, the traditional flute of the Andes Mountains in South America.

This flute riff radiates an ancient, universal, omnidominational, prayerful Depeche mode type quality. Does it not? I dig the Andean flute. Dude, man. Shakira Isabel Mibarak Rapal is born in Baranquia, Colombia on the northern Caribbean coast of Colombia in 1977 to parents of Lebanese and Spanish descent. Via her Lebanese heritage on her dad's side, Shakira got into belly dancing. As indicated, on the cover of Rolling Stone, she went to Catholic school, where she tried out for the school choir in the second grade, but her music teacher thought Shakira's vibrato was too strong. and the other kids thought Shakira sounded like a goat.

That's rude. Undeterred, Shakira got a guitar from her aunt and wrote her first song when she was eight years old. She wrote a song called Gaffas Ascuras, dark glasses. It was about her dad who wore sunglasses to mask his grief after his son was killed in a car accident. Shakira says her very first memory was when she was two years old and she heard that her half-brother had been killed.

From the onset, we are dealing with a very intense, a very deep thinking and deep feeling person here. That very first song appears on Shakira's first album, released in 1991, the year she turns 14. It is called Mahia, Magic, and it is the first of two early Shakira albums that she more or less no longer acknowledges. They made a video for the song Mahia, though. And so here we have teenage Shakira pinning up her voluminous hair in her teenager-type bedroom while singing, Magic, I Feel Magic, Lately Something New is Born in Me. For the most part, we got maximum late 80s, early 90s teen pop balladry here. A little Debbie Gibson, a little Taylor Dane, a little Selena. The Magia album sells around

a thousand copies in Columbia. That's not good. Other than the occasional YouTube bootleg, this record ain't streaming. You'll live. Same deal, quite low sales back then, not officially streaming now, with Shakira's second album, released in 1993 and called Peligro Danger. That's the song, Pelligro, and it's a great deal rowdier and stormier and clankier, and Shakira just sang, I don't know, I don't know, I how something can be so beautiful. A thunderbolt so thrilling in my sky. And I feel

afraid that this is your love. Danger, danger. It's quite early days here and the true canonical Shakira discography has not really even begun yet, but something to maybe start thinking about is what Shakira's vocals and lyrics lose and organe when translated from Spanish

into English. Shakira won't be singing in English and thus crossing a lot. for a while yet. She doesn't really speak English yet, but even as collections of syllables, even as hyper-charismatic barrages of crunchy growling consonants and howling triumphant nasal vowels, Shakira and Spanish and Shakira in English are too complementary but emphatically distinct experiences. But first we got to start letting this lady rock out a little bit. I seem to recall something about this lady being transformatively overwhelmed

by the mysterious power of electric guitars. Here we have P.S. Descalzos, Swaynos Blancos, bare feet, blank dreams, or I guess technically it's white dreams, though blank dreams is way better, right? From Shakira's third album, released in 1995 and called simply P.S. Discalzos. That's the chorus of that song, a chorus that goes, You belonged to an ancient race of bare feet and blank dreams. You were dust, dust you are.

Think that iron is always soft when heated. The translations might go better if I do them first. Let's try that. Hit the deck. Shakir's about to sing, You bit the apple and renounced paradise and condemned a snake being you who wanted it that way. And then for millennia and millennia, you ran naked and faced dinosaurs under a roof and without a shield.

The Dinosaurios part might not be strictly historically accurate, but I'm really into how Shakira sings the word Dinosaurios. It would appear that Piers Descalzos, Swaynos Blancos, is a song about conformity and rebellion. In mankind's broad tendency toward conformity over rebellion, ever since Adam and Eve bit into an apple from the tree of knowledge, it got kicked out of the Garden of Eden, etc. Plus dinosaurs, dinosaurs, dinosaurs, a tremendously catchy and only slightly rowdy mid-90s alternative rock song with a provocative, deep-thinking historical sweep. and explicit biblical overtones. Also, if you're watching the video, if you're watching Shakira in sort of jovial goth mode,

writhing around with long jet black hair and a heavily stylized, hyper-color saturated mid-90s alt-rock video environments. She's surrounded by people stuck in the ground up to their waists. Their feet are pointing straight up and their heads are literally buried in the sand, right? If you're like me, you see all this chariastically, brazen imagery and you go, oh right, Alanis Morissette.

Alanis also being a pretty big deal in 1995, if I recall correctly. There's a ton of harmony between Alanis and Shakira vocally as well, the swooping bombast, the undaunted flamboyance of their voices, and the undaunted flamboyance of their songwriting, whether they are excoriating some chump ex-boyfriend or contemplating the physical and spiritual state of the world. In a thank you India, thank you terror, thank you disillusionment sort of way.

The Piaz-Discozzo's record blows up. It sells 5 million copies worldwide, including eventually 1 million copies sold in America, any language barrier is notwithstanding. This album reframes both Shakira within the context of Latin pop. She's way more of a boundary-pushing rocker now, and it helps reframe Latin pop.

globally. It demonstrates the exponentially growing popularity of Latin pop globally. Shakira is an all-universe pop star from now on. You hear her voice and you just know it, even if you can't articulate why you know it. This song is called Antolohia anthology and the chorus begins as follows. And I learned to take the seconds out of time, you made me see the sky even deeper. With you, I think I gained more than three kilos with the many sweet kisses you bestowed. That last line about the sweet kisses, yeah, that's very pretty, but con tus tantos dulces besos repartidos is a much, much prettier way to say it.

The line to keep to time the second You made you with you I think I gained more than three kilos is also quite romantic in any language. All right, second half of the chorus. You developed my sense of smell and because of you I learned to like cats you detached my shoes from the concrete

so we could both escape flying for a while. I think we can agree that Los Gatos is a much, much, much, much prettier word for cats. Zapados is a much, much prettier word for shoes while we're at it. In 1998, Shakira releases her fourth album called Donde Estan Los Ladrones. Where are the Thieves? This is a phrase with both fraught personal resonance for Shakira. In the run-up to this album, her notebook of lyrics get stolen at the airport. And also, you know, we got plenty of thieves in society, politicians and so forth.

perhaps a few thieves of Shakira's heart as well. The first song here is called Siyaga Sordomuda, which is an awfully lovely and sonorous way to say, Blind, Deaf, and Mute. Chorus, Stupid, Blind, Deaf, Mute. Flumsy, useless, and stubborn. It's all that I've been, because of you, I've turned into something

that does nothing but love you. I think of you day and night, and I don't know how to forget you. I wouldn't say Shakira sounds particularly psyched about any of that. She hates to bug you in the middle of dinner. Dig the video for Siego Sordomuda, in which Shakira and her band get arrested by cartoonishly bumbling slash menacing cops, because Shakira is a bold, swaggering, boundary-pushing rocker now, though she can still belt the bejesus out of a battle. like nobody's business. This song is just called to, as in you, and hey, let's mix it up and not do a

translation this time. Maybe the translations are extraneous. You get it. Shakira gets her damn point across simply with the wind, dark sea depth, and the distinctly share-esque extravagant vehemence of her voice. Yeah, wow. By the late 90s, Shakira is a huge pop star, an eight. a Colombian national treasure. In 1999, fellow Colombian national treasure, and Nobel Prize winner, and all-universe superstar novelist

Gabriel Garcia Marquez, Paragon of Magical Realism, an author of 100 years of solitude and love in the time of cholera, etc. In 1999, he writes a profile of Shakira for a Colombian magazine. And as repeated later in Rolling Stone, Gabriel writes, quote,

No one of any age can sing or dance with the innocent sensualities Shakira seems to have invented. End quote. As always, and God bless him for this, truly. Gabriel Garcia Marquez, horny on Maine. Right? He also writes, quote, with the face of a perfect young girl and her deceptive frailty, she always had the absolute serenity. She would be a public personality of world renown.

She did not know in what art or in what manner, but she did not have a shadow of a doubt, as if she were condemned to a prophecy. End quote. Global 21st century pop stardom as a prophecy, but also a sort of condemnation. That's prophetic all on its own. Shakira and Gabriel end up being good friends, and it's super sweet. Those two are your best case scenario for national treasures, I think. Real quick, in the year 2000, Shakira does MTV Unplugged. And I got to say that the unplugged turbill mariachi version of that song, Siga Sordamuda, will knock you right on your ass.

This is rad as hell. I'm going to flag the word pantalones here and let you process the rest on your own time. Okay, guess what? It is time for Blockbuster Colombian pop star, hear at a crossover in the somewhat dorky parlance of our time. You may recall the quote-unquote Latin explosion in the United States pop music mainstream in the late 90s, led by Ricky Martin and Mark Anthony, both huge stars already, now singing in English, and Jennifer Lopez, a relative

newcomer, but she caught up fast. I do believe Carlos Santana contributed a few modest hits as well. The Latin explosion is a very real, genuinely delightful, hugely consequential, et cetera, thing, even if it's also charmingly super clumsy in its effort to smooth out any potential translation issues for us non-Spanish-speaking listeners. There's a great book by author and Billboard magazine journalist and friend of the show Leila Kobo. It came out in 2021, and it's called Decoding Despacito, an oral history of Latin music. covering 19 huge crossover songs spanning from Jose Feliciano's Feliz Navidad in 1970 to Rosalia's Malamente in 2018. And at one point, the blockbuster songwriter Desmond Child, he talks about writing for Ricky Martin.

And Desmond says, quote, I delivered the demos to the record company and someone said, the song's terrific, but can you write it in English now? I said it is in English. and he said, it sounds like it's in Spanish. You have to write in English. No one knows what Vida Loca is. We figured it out. Laila Kobo writes that at one point,

Billboard magazine ran a full-page ad for that particular ludicrous number one English language breakout 1999 Ricky Martin mega hit. And the ad just said, live in La Vida Loca. And right below that, it said, living the crazy life. Yeah, we got it.

Now it's 2001, and it's Shakira's turn to assert her global dominance from the top of a mountain on a computer. And thus we return to Shakira's 2001 English language breakout smash hit whenever, wherever, which peaked at number six on the Billboard Hot 100 and appears on her 2001 English-language album Laundry Service.

And that song does indeed include the famous lines, Lucky that my breasts are small and humble, so you don't confuse them with mountains. You will not mistake Shakira's lyrics for anybody else's lyrics. Shakira originally wrote this song in Spanish. It was called Suerte, Lucky. And those lyrics were originally translated into English by none other than the legendary glory.

as Stefan, crossover superstar, she of the Miami Sound Machine, she of bad boy, rhythm is going to get you, etc. The Laundry Service album peaks at number three on the Billboard album chart in America and eventually sells 13 million copies worldwide. And it lands Shakira on the cover of the cool issue of Rolling Stone. Here we have Laundry Service opening track, Objection, Parenthesis Tango, which just so, happens to be the first song Shakira wrote in English. It's not the sauciest line in this song necessarily, but I don't feel like saying any of the saucier lines out loud. And furthermore, I love you for free and I'm not your mother is plenty saucy enough, I think. Talking to Time magazine in 2001, Shakira says, quote, I knew I could write songs

in English. I just had to get over the fear. Spanish syntax is more flexible. I can put a verb before a noun any time I need to. English is more rigid. But she also says, the great thing about composing in English is that with three words, you can make a more direct statement. End quote. At this point, the Time magazine writer says, quote, as an example, Shakira leans back and lets out a cry. Go for it. End quote. Here is another impressively direct three-word English statement. That's a rad power ballad from the laundry service album called Underneath Your Clothes, which, yeah, that's a very effective phrase.

But I'd argue the final word, honey, is the real masterstroke there. The sauce Shakira puts on the word honey. The way the whole song seems to wrap around the word honey, like a giant swirl of cotton candy. Laundry service is a massive album. An objection into underneath your clothes, into whenever, wherever, is a candidate for the best one, two, three album opening punch of the decade.

But let me briefly refer you to a deeper, angrier, distinctly Alanis-like cut called Poem to a Horse, as in, so what's the point of wasting all my words, if it's just the same or even worse than reading poems to a horse. Also, dig the phenomenal Alanis-like venom with which Shakira spits out the words, hydroponic pot.

I laugh out loud every time at Shakira singing hydroponic pot. It's the little things. Hey, guess what? It's time for fully crossed over Blockbuster Colombian pop star Shakira to pull the guns and roses, use your illusion, split up double album trick. In 2005, Shakira releases two albums, Fahacion Oral in June, that's in Spanish, and Oral Fixation Volume 2 in November. That's not in Spanish.

Hips Don't Lie eventually lands on Volume 2, the English album. And if you want the truth, Volume 1, the Spanish album is way better overall. but volume two has Hips Don't Lie. So you want to do this now? Let's do this now. Shakira, Shakira. I never really know that she can dance like this. She make a man want to speak Spanish.

Como Seema? Hips Don't Lie starts with our good friend Wyclef John. This song is a remarkably faithful remake of a 2004 Wycleft solo track called Dance Like This, which appeared on the soundtrack to a modest little finessell. called Dirty Dancing, Colin Havana Knights. Wyclef is everywhere, all the time. Wyclef's opening chorus here is pretty much identical to what he did on that song, dance like this.

The jaunty regal horn riff is likewise pretty much identical. But in this new, far higher profile context, it is objectively funny to me that multilingual superstar pop collaboration specialist Wyclef Jean starts hip-eshoe don't lie by saying she make a man want to speak Spanish and then he says what's your name pretty my house your house in Spanish and Shakira reacts like he just recited five pages of a Gabriel Garcia

Marquez novel from memory. Shakira Shakira oh baby when you talk my dad and go mad so be wise and keep on reading the signs of my body. suppose you can't discount the importance of Wycleft going Shakira, Shakira constantly. Speaking of Wycleft blurting out, random, dumb, initially annoying, but ultimately weirdly, absolutely essential shit on gargantuan hit pop songs. So Wyclef says, what's your name, pretty, my house, your house in Spanish. And Shakira's 100% sincere besotted response is, oh baby, when you talk like that, you make a woman go mad. If I'd have known it was this easy to pick up girls in Spanish,

my high school years would have gone way differently. That's all I'm saying. Here's a legitimately odd sort of sonic aspect of hips, don't lie, that I'm still wrestling with. It's a lot easier to hear if you're wearing headphones, but it's the way Shakira's vocals are mixed into this song. Or I guess the way Shakira's vocals aren't mixed into this song at all. There is a physical sense here that Shakira's voice is entirely spatially sitting on top of this

song, that she's singing while standing in a room where the song is playing, but she's not fully in the song, if that makes sense. It sounds like you're listening to her do karaoke to it. Shakira is an entirely separate entity from the rest of the song, including Wyclef and all of the music. This is very obviously not by accident. This is a very obviously not by accident. This is a a strategic decision to push Shakira's vocals so far forward in the mix that she becomes isolated and extra-dimensional. I don't know yet that I'm 100% on board with this approach, but it ain't boring. A boy, I can see your body moving half an more half man. I don't don't really know what I'm doing, but you seem to have a plan. My way ain't happen to fail now, fail now. See, I'm doing what I can, but I

and there's whycliffe yelling one do you know that's up it's too hard to explain and there's whycliffe yelling one dos tres quattro from another room that radically Shakira forward exit velocity mix further illuminates what is singular and captivating about Shakira's voice the percussive ferocity behind every syllable of I can see your body moving the ultra verbato on the line my will and self-restraint etc It is worth noting that not everyone was thrilled with this new super crossover, often English-speaking era of Shakira. In a pitchfork Sunday review of the Laundry Service album, written by the critic Isabella Herrera and published in February 2020,

Isabella writes, quote, among her diehard Latin American fans, laundry service had its share of detractors. Many labeled Shakira a sellout, claiming her newly blonde hair, transitioned to English, and new look meant she was abandoning her essence as an incisive rocarea

in transforming into a whiter, sexier version of herself, one palatable for Anglo audiences. End quote. I do not feel the least bit qualified to opine on that, but speaking as an American and non-Spanish speaker, coming to these two 2005 oral fixation albums, with not a huge amount of prior Shakira context. I'm intrigued by the even split

between Shakira singing in Spanish and Shakira singing in English and how that difference affects the songs themselves. I'm pretty sure my favorite Shakira song ever is Track 1 on Volume 1, the all-Spanish album. The song is called Entus Pupilas. Yeah, that's the most startling and beautiful series of words I've ever heard Shakira sing.

The last line there is, que Dios no de ho desistice. And of course, without the internet, I would not be aware that the line translates roughly to that God has not ceased to exist. For me, it's just that I love the falsetto spike on the word de ho there. Deho, the word roughly translated as cease. But if you want, on volume two, on what is otherwise the same song, you can hear that chorus in English. And now, appropriately enough, the falsetto spike I love in the last line is right on the word God.

On something You've got something I can't resist Things are one they will be When I look into your eyes They say Still exists On volume two

That song is called something This isn't a matter of one version Being better than the other But yeah those two choruses Are somehow very different listening experiences The soothing flow of the line Things are what they will be in the English version, too.

Yeesh. Great song. Great song in any language and at any level of verbal understanding. Take this all as a simple reminder that Shakira's music, Shakira's entire public persona, is an unavoidably eternal act of translation.

If you're like me and this person first came to your attention on whenever, wherever, when she very, very explicitly crossed over, that's cool. But when that crossover happened, in 2001, Shakira was already 10 years into her career, most of which she'd spent as a

massive star. And from my perspective anyway, what's reassuring and heartening is that targeting a new audience, and often singing in a new language, did not at all seem to dilute Shakira's fundamental delightful eccentricities. And I have quite enjoyed the

visible, audible effort musically and otherwise, that Shakira has put into these ongoing acts of translation. I always say my hips don't lie. Yeah. So, you know, when I have all this, you know, debate with my musicians about how a song

should feel or a groove, a certain groove and it's not going quite well, I said, my hips don't lie, that's not working. Yeah, they tell you the truth. I'm going to use that now on. Can I borrow that? Of course, you know. My hips don't lie. Yeah.

That's Shakira on the Ellen show in 2005, before Hips Don't Lie is out, how about we not give Ellen DeGeneres any more ideas for how to antagonize people? All of this crossover translation business on Hips Don't Lie, all that effort and tension and perfection manifests itself in the rapport

between Shakira and Wycliffe. And as bizarre as the audio mix might be, as physically distant as Shakira and Wycliffe might sound from each other, my favorite part of Hips Don't Lie, is on Wycleft's wrapped verse halfway through the song where Shakira's voice

sneaks in only on the line why the CIA want to watch us. It's like she drops into the room through the ceiling and then falls back out of the room through the floor. Yeah, she's so sexy a man fantasy, a refugee like me back

with the Fugees from a third world country. I'll go back like when pot carry crates for hump-de-hump, we need a whole club jizzi. Bo by the CIA want to watch it. Let's her phone be used and hints. I ain't guilty. It's a musical transaction. I love that little micro moment of magnificent camaraderie there.

Between our friend Wyclef and his friend Shakira. My second favorite moment in Hips Don't Lie is literally in the last 10 seconds. When Shakira finally gives in and delivers a simple, timeless and absolutely necessary two-word message. No fighting. You heard her. You heard Wycleft say it like 400 times and you heard Shakira say it once. And I'm only guessing here,

but I'm guessing you're more likely to actually stop fighting if you hear Shakira say it just once. We are so thrilled to be joined once again by Susie Exposito, critic and columnist and journalist and assistant editor for the Delos Vertical at the Los Angeles Times.

She's worked for Rolling Stone and written for Vogue, Vanity Fair, Elle, and many other fine places. Susie, it's great to talk to you again. Thanks so much for being here. Thanks for having me back here, Rob. Of course. So in April, the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame announced their 2026 inductees. And Shakira was on the ballots, I think, for the first time, but Shakira did not make the cuts this year. Why, in your opinion, does Shakira deserve to be in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame?

Shakira just rocks. You know, I think that this was such an optimal time. for her because what we are seeing right now with what's happening in Latin music, whether it's Bad Bunny performing at the halftime show or Carol G, you know, Colombian pop star headlining at Coachella, these are Shakira's children. If we're talking about legacy, you know,

and how incredibly Latin music has performed not only this year, but, you know, over the last decade. I think a lot of that is thanks to artists like Shakira, you know, who cut their teeth in the 90s and did the whole, you know, crossover process from, from Spanish language music to English language music so that Americans, you know, who really spend a ton of money on music in comparison to the rest of the world, like just so that more listeners could be comfortable with Latinos. And I think that, you know, it goes beyond that with Shakira, though.

She's just like an incredible performer. She's a really talented musician who plays a multitude of instruments. And she sings and speaks in multiple languages and will, you know, meet listeners where they're at. You know, it's something that she has just really owned. It's the way that she brings people in. It's her, just the international character of her music that goes even beyond Latin music or Spanish language music. And she's just one of the most memorable pop stars that we have. Yeah, because Carol G just headline Coachella, you know, when you see that or when you see Bad Buddy at the halftime show, like musically.

sonically personality-wise, when you say, like, these are Shakira's children in part, like, what aspects of Shakira do you now see carrying on with these subsequent, you know, huge pop stars that are crossing over, like, in a different way, but the same way that she did? Yeah, I think, I think it's about, um, just, just to, to focus on Shakira, I think, like, in her generation of artists, you know, she didn't start totally from scratch. She was able to make her crossover moment because she was kind of like ushered in to the U.S. I mean, she started in Columbia, but she was welcomed by Gloria Estefan, you know, and her husband. They hosted Shakira in Miami, worked on her record.

Don't Estan Los Ladrones. And, you know, like, they helped shepherd her into this, like, larger echelon of pop music, or of the pop music industry because they knew how it was. They cut their teeth with Miami Sound Machine back in the 80s. Of course, of course. And, you know, they were immigrants. it was still a very there were a lot of limitations

for artists who made music in Spanish before them it was you know on I Love Lucy Desi Arnettes Right right right From Cuba who broke that ground You know like performing Cuban music

On on American television So you know Shakira is part of a lineage herself but the way that she made herself stand out was not just by like singing in you know Spanish and English but she also rocks like it was already like for those of us in the US who grew up on you know we grew up on Hull and L7 and eventually you know like

Alanis Morse at Liz Fair you know like women in rock I mean yeah Women of the 90s. Like there was also Shakira breaking this ground in Latin America where there was already like a very thriving rock in Español scene, whether it was like Mana in Mexico or or Sotom Serio in Argentina like or in Colombia, you know, there was Juana's. But there weren't very many women, you know, allowed into this field. And we have similar stories in the United States. of women who really had to fight to get through.

And Shakira is an incredible guitar player. She's an incredible songwriter. We can talk about maybe the absurdism of her lyrics. Please, I would love to. She's a poet. But she's just such a well-rounded person who did have to, you know, she started out in pop. They wanted to make her this like squeaky clean Latin pop artist.

But she's a little edgier than that. and she already was from the get-go. And I think that's really inspiring. And I think that what she showed, you know, like her people like, whether it's Carol G or Bad Bunny or Jay Balvin, even, like, she showed up as herself. Even in her first English language album, Laundry Service, she still showed up as this, like, weird edgy rockera. You know? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, she wasn't following a blueprint by that point.

That's what made her so exciting. Right. I wanted to ask you about those mid-90s Spanish language albums, which to me are as much alternative rock albums as the pop albums. And you mentioned Alanis Morissette, and I hear a ton of Alanis in Shakira, and I've seen that comparison, but I've also seen people write about how they don't see that connection at all,

and they don't understand why, you know, people are always trying to put them together. Like, who did you see in the mid-90s on those Spanish language records that first blew up? Like, who did you see as Shakira's contemporaries, you know, the singers at that time that she had the most in common with? Was that, like, sort of 90s, L7 whole, like, alternative rock? I mean, it's interesting because when I asked her about it, her root was Nirvana. Right, right. You know? You know, I don't know how deep she got into grunge really beyond that,

but that was, you know, like one of the first records that she bought. And, you know, it called to her because she has like a fierceness. Her whole thing, like her nickname for herself is La Loba. You know, she's, she's the wolf mother. She's the huntress. And, you know, she walks on the wild side. And she was always like that from the beginning. And as for Alanis, you know, jagged little pill, I believe, came out in 95, I think.

It did. It was the same year. And so did be as this gun so. Ladrones. That was the one that came out. Yeah, it was the same year. 98. And so like, you know, I wouldn't even, I would not say that Shakira was like emulating Alanis. they were around at the same time. I think for Shakira, especially when it comes to her vocal style and like the just the cutting frankness of her lyrics sometimes, she does share some of those qualities with Alanis,

but they're coming from two different starting points. I feel like Alanis, yeah, she started as a more traditional pop star and was like, well, I'm going to get really weird and kind of coffee house, it. And, you know, like, I think about before Alanis doing these, like, weird vocal affectations, I think about, like, Edie Burkell, you know, being like, and the new bohemians. And the new bohemians. And, like, Shakira also, she's got some songs that have, you know, similar, I don't know, quirkiness to them. But for her, her vocal style, she was criticized really early

on in life because she sounded like a goat. But really what she was doing was she was because she was also, she was simultaneously like in a Colombian family, but also a Lebanese family, you know, her father being Lebanese. And there's a huge Lebanese diaspora in Colombia. So she was, you know, living this bicultural life. And to sing in Arabic, you do have. You do have, have to, you know, there are a lot of scales. Right. The way that they sing, they sing with like melismas, which is that, like, that wavering, you know, like, how far can you take this note, you know?

It's like in, it like leaps and then, you know, it sinks. And it's all about having a really flexible range. And so given her upbringing, like singing in Arabic and that technique was really important for her. So, you know, I can't speak to Alanis's technique, but for Shakira, it's something that is actually rooted in her heritage. And she turned it into something a little grungier, which is why I think she's so memorable. What did you make of, you know, 2001 laundry service, that's where she makes this big,

pop crossover. She's singing in English now whenever, wherever is a huge hit. And I get the sense that like her established fan base, like not everyone was thrilled with this, that she was singing in English now. Right. And then she seemed to be courting a whole new audience. Like what was your reaction, you know, at this moment where she's getting huge, you know, and singing in English now primarily? It's so funny because I remember feeling disappointed. I was 12 when laundry service came out. Now, the most disappointing thing for me was that she went blonde. And I'm someone... Right, right.

I started tuning in to Shakira's music when I was like nine. And I was a little rocker, you know? Like, my parents were very gen X, so they did bring me up on Nirvana and Hole and, like, Green Day and stuff like that. So I loved songs like Inevitale. That's my favorite one. That's where she really rocks out and is like head banging in the video. And so seeing her make this transformation, you know, like she moved to Miami and then went blonde. And I was like, what the hell?

That's how they get you. This is a poser or shit, Shakira. What is up? I should say, you know, I was like, you know, I was. also a mall goth at this point in time. Sure, sure. That's naturally judgmental. Yeah, but I respect it. I respect it. Well, you know, it was like the people we associated with blondes were like

pop stars. Sure, sure. We're talking like late 90s, early 2000s, Britney Spears, Christina Aguilera. And so I think Gwen Stefani. Gwen Stefani, like going blonde for her, it was like, oh no. She's mainstreaming. But I remember, I remember walking it back a little bit because if you watch the video for underneath your clothes, in the beginning of the video, she's being interviewed by like an American guy. And so he asks her about, you know, what it's like, you know, being a Latina artist in the States or something like that. but she answers him completely in Spanish and then she cuts off the interview. Or like she just walks away when he's like, wait, but can you say all that in English?

And so. It's a great start to that video. That's really a beautiful thing. That was her way of saying, hey, you guys, I'm meeting you where you're at. Can you meet me a little further, you know, in the middle? And that's why I say that, you know, Bad Bunny is like one of her children because he went, you know, I mean, he went all the way with it. He's like, nope, you got to meet me all the way over here. Like 100% Spanish.

I don't care what you think, you know, try and learn something for a change. Exactly. No, I think. No, totally. Because I think about, you know, the Shakira and Jalo Super Bowl, right, which was 2020, which was like February 2020 before the world went to shit, which I think sort of distorts. But it was fantastic and people loved it. But yeah, like just bad buddy makes this huge crossover move without ever making that concession to speak in English.

The way the singing English, the way Ricky Martin did, you know, the way Shakira did. Like, how much is it, how did that happen? What do you think it is that made, you know, the big Latin pop stars of today never really have to cross over in that like dorky sort of now we're going to really go for a global. You don't have to do that anymore the way that Shakira did in 2001. Like, why do you think that is? I will say, like, a huge part of it is that Latinos have also, like, Latinos in the U.S. have grown. The population has grown immensely. Now we are about, we occupy about 20% of the population in the United States.

And a lot of us listen to music in Spanish. We buy a lot of music. Like we buy a lot of concert tickets. We are fueling the music economy in ways that, you know, at levels we've never seen before. If you look at the RIAA and their stats for like the Latin music revenue, it just increases by the double digits every year. That's, I mean, just in terms of how many people are spending money on Latin music. And I think, yeah, population growth is one thing. Also, I don't know, we're just really cool.

And our music gets around a lot, you know, whether it was, you know, Despacito, or whether it's, I don't know, I mean, at this point, Bad Bunny has so many freaking hits. Or, you know, what's happening? Rosalia. Rosalia, you know, coming from Spain and, like, just, I don't. know, intriguing the hell out of people with her, you know, eclectic takes on pop. And I think the fact that, you know, even I think about Beyonce collaborating with Jay Balvin on that song, Mijente, you know, also having more major artists, you know, come and, you know, they want to collab with Latin artists.

I mean, Justin Bieber jumping on Despacito was a huge example of that. Yeah. And so I think there's generally like more openness to music and other languages. Think about K-pop as a sensation in the United States. I just think that the American listenership is also more curious these days. Around the oral fixation records, you know, you can start hearing the same song in English and Spanish, you know, across the two volumes. Like, is there a divide for you between Shakira singing in Spanish and Shakira singing in English? Do you think she changed fundamentally as a singer or as a songwriter, you know, when she's jumping from one language to the other?

I would say in the early days, I thought so, you know, especially with her lyricism. It would feel very like, I mean, what song did, were we talking about? Oh, I think we were talking about she-wolf. Like I'm starting to feel just a little abuse like a copy machine in an office. I love that song, though. I love that song, too. And that's a great line, but it seems like she's always done that. And she said, she's like, I have very colloquial, you know, like casual lyrics.

And it's, it's partly translation, but I think it's partly the way she's always been. You know, like there's a through line to her lyrics. And it's not just that she's singing in English and writing in English now that's causing. her to write like this. Like she's always been like this. There's always been an edginess and an eccentricity to her. That's like part of what makes her great. Exactly.

I think the difference between the English oral fixation and the Spanish one, I actually, I feel like she really stepped into her power as like a, as a singer-songwriter. And I think that her collaborations on these records were incredible too. You know, they were, like, distinct records in their own right, even if she did, like, English and Spanish versions. I think she did a good job of moving between the two without feeling like it was super hokey or contrived, at least in my opinion. You know, I love that in the Spanish version, she wrote some of the songs with Gustavo Serrati of Sotom Stereati of Sotom Sterev. who is like, I mean, he's the man. You know, when you're thinking about rock and Hispaniol, he, I'm trying to think of what the comparison would be. I guess like people

love him the way that they love Radiohead. Like, he had, where he has like that, um, very, I mean, he was so inventive and like the two of them together. There's like a video of them singing together that's just fantastic. You guys should look it up. But, um, they're both. very unique artists in their own right, they're both innovators. But then on the on the English language side, Shakira teaming up with like Carlos Santana. Oh my God. And why Clef Jean, which is what we're here to talk about, isn't it? Ostensibly. We were going to get to it eventually. It's fine. It takes as long as it takes. I mean, by certain objective measures, right? like this is her number one this is her only number one pop hit you know it's her most stream

song now like hips don't lie is her biggest song by some measures like is do you go back to that song at all is it among her best songs like where are you on hips don't lie like specifically i think objectively as like a music critic yes it's one of her best songs um okay personally yes it's one of her best songs. Nostalgically, absolutely just blows, you know, so many others out of the water. I don't know. At the end of the day, my favorite song is inevitable because I will always be a rocker, but hips don't lie. Sure. Always a Marl goth at heart. What is it about hips don't lie nostalgically. Like what, you know, that's 2006, right? Like, what mind state does Hips Don't Lie put you in when you hear it now? Blurdy, frolicing, you know? I will never forget. I was like,

one of like the few Latinas like at my summer camp where I was a counselor at like this girls camp. And I just remember like being in, I was 16. It was like the summer 2006 And I was showing the other girls How to like move their hips And they didn't know It was like that video Shakira and Beyonce Right

Right right right Were you successful? Yeah Yes, yes But the funniest thing was how shocked Some of my bunkmates were Because they were like We didn't know punk girls could do that

It was right A big culture shock in many ways For my bunkmates But I just remember like feeling really proud of that and like um yeah i felt like i think a lot of like alternative kids of color like might share this um experience but i think it's like we often feel divided or like pulled into two different directions where it's like okay i have to like i want to be true to my school in a way i want to show that i'm still a hard-quired

but I also want to be true to like my heritage, I don't know, my soul. And sometimes my soul wants to dance reggaeton and so does my body. And I can be all punked out and still want to do that, which is why I think another reason why I really, really admire Shakira because she was like, why not both? Why not everything? Right. Why not everything? Just try everything.

Just like in the song. where she plays a gazelle. What movie is that? Zootopia. That's right, yes. I forget what that song is called now, but that's a banger. That's a banger in its way.

In a Zootopia context, that's a legit song. My five-year-old loves it. So that's all I need to know, I guess. I don't blame your kid for that. It's a banger. But, you know, like, that's why Shakira is such a treasure

because she also gave my teen self-permission to embrace my hips, which I just, I didn't know, I didn't know what to do. If you put me on a, you know, in a family party, I remember my family members would struggle to teach me how to dance salsa because I was wearing these huge, like, combat boots.

It is, it is, there are some aesthetic issues with that. Yes. Your pants are dragging on the ground. Yeah, I get it. And so, when hips don't like, came out, it was like, I don't know, there was something like something raging inside me, whether it was hormones or just, you know, the coming of age.

I don't know, but Shakira like tapped that. Like, she just woke something up in me, in a lot of us. And I think musically, just the mix of genres that she plays with, you know, she has the, like, Jerry Rivera's salsa trumpets incorporated into the song, and then she's got this, like, really hard-hitting reggaeton beat. And, you know, Wyclef Jean, he's, I mean, he's just so cool. And he sings about the connection between, like, Haiti and Colombia, the, like, Caribbean connection, the Pan American connection.

It not only sounds good, but I think it also speaks. to a lot of like, you know, kids from a diaspora, kids of immigrants, just tapping into this very global groove and bringing it to American radio. What a moment. Just to wrap up, I think you interviewed Shakira after she was nominated for the Rock Hall. Like you talked to her about that honor. Like, do you think she'll get in and do you think she cares? You know, everyone is like, oh, it's such an honor.

Oh, I'd love to be in. Do you think it matters to her whether or not it ever happens? And do you think it'll ever happen that she makes the rock home? I mean, at this point, she's won hundreds of awards, but this particular honor for Shakira, it's a special one for her. You know, I only got to speak with her for like a few minutes. She's a very busy woman. It appears that she's very busy, yes.

She's always, she's a girl on the go. But for Shakira, she's not just a rock star. She's a student of rock and roll. Right. So this would be such an honor for her. I mean, even just being nominated, for her it was something special because if she was inducted, she would be the first Latin American-born woman to be inducted into the rock hall. So far, you know, we have, like Joan Baez was inducted, Linda Ronstadt was inducted, was inducted,

was inducted. And they're both proud Latinas. They've, they've performed music in English and Spanish themselves. Um, but Shakira would have been the first of her ilk. And I think, uh, it was just so cool that they recognized her as like someone who's contributed to rock and roll history. I think she has. The just, she's moved the needle, not just for Latinas, Latinos, but like women and rock and I think she deserves her flowers for that. Susie, this has been so wonderful. It's always awesome to talk to you. Thanks so much for being here.

Yes. Thank you for talking about one of my favorite people in the universe. Awesome. This has been great. Thank you. Thanks very much to our guest this week, Susie Exposito. Thanks to our producers, Juliana Ress, Olivia Crieri, Justin Sales, and Chris Sutton. additional production by Kevin Pooler,

animations and graphics by Chris Callaton, additional art by Matt James, and special thanks to Cole Kushna. And thanks so much to you for listening. And now let's all go listen to Hips Don't Lie by Shakira. We'll see you next week. Spotify, it's Jay Shetty. Are you one of those media strategy people?

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