60 Songs That Explain the '90s - The Songs We Didn’t Do (Everyone Yells At Rob)

Episode Date: February 21, 2024

Hello friends, and thank you for stopping by for a very special episode of 60 Songs. With just three songs remaining, it felt like a great week to have some of Rob’s favorite guests as well as producers stop by and yell at him over songs that he missed. Enjoy! Host: Rob Harvilla Guests: Andrew Savage, Yasi Salek, Elamin Adelmahmoud, Alex Steed, Leslie Gray Streeter, Isaac Lee, Jonathan Kermah, and Justin Sayles Producers: Jonathan Kermah and Justin Sayles Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In a world where coaches are still the main characters, the players are now legally chasing the ultimate bag, and the game of basketball is always the top priority. There was only one brand you can trust to help you wade through all the madness. Hey, I'm Tate Frazier from One Shiny Podcast, and you can join me twice a week as we navigate the always entertaining world of college basketball. Every Monday, the ringer's comment helps me make sense of the biggest stories from the weekend, and on Fridays we talk to our many friends of the program. We're locked in on the best postseason in sports. Make sure you follow One Shining Podcasts on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, friends. This is a special bonus episode of 60 songs that explained the 90s, a show that has

three songs left. We are actually stopping this time. We put 60 songs in the title, then we decided to do 90 songs, then we decided to do 120. And this is a hilarious joke to me, genuinely, but we are stopping. Now, we have done 117 songs, and we have three more to get to 120. And then we are going to find something else to do. We will be back.

This show will be back. I have a lot of anxiety about this. I need to go lie down for a while, but this show will be back. I guarantee it. But we are almost done with the 90s. And so here in this bonus episode, which I have informally been calling the Everyone yells at Robb episode. We reached out to some friends of ours, many old friends, but also a few new ones, for quick conversations about the songs we should have done. Egregious oversights,

profound regrets, that sort of thing. We will be back next week and the week after that and the week after that to finish this thing off. But for now, please enjoy this monument to my various failures. Okay. Thank you. Our next guest is Andrew Savage, singer and guitarist and the fantastic rock band Parquet Courts. Visual artist and solo artist as well as most recent album under the name A Savage is called several songs about fire.

He is on tour. Welcome, Andrew. What song should I have done? Rob, just wanted to say, before I get into that, I'm a big fan of the podcast. I don't even really listen to many podcasts. I listen to like yours. And we're of similar ages. So the 1990s is the decade, you know, where I first got into music.

It defined music for me, you know, for the rest of my life, kind of. It introduced me to pop music and rock music. And so I love what you're doing. I'm a big fan of the show. And thanks a lot. Thanks, man. Likewise. Yeah.

And so now that I've got the accolades out of the way. Okay. So you do a show called 60s. songs that explain the 1990s, of which you probably done 500 episodes, right? 116, but yeah, close enough. Okay. And so you haven't done an episode on Sonic Youth? Rob?

First of all, before, what do you have to say for yourself? I have no real defense. They're one of the cases where, like, Daydream Nation would be the obvious choice in that sort of out, right? Like I got into them through dirty, you know, I understood them to be like the people who introduced Kurt Cobain to a wider America. You know, I felt like I showed them the proper respect even as a teenager. But I could never quite figure out what song to do, what era to go with. So you're thinking cool thing.

Do I have this right? You know what? I'm thinking I'm thinking 100%. Oh, yeah. Because that to me is the band in a very interesting sort of. I mean, this is a band whose career in the early 1990s serves as kind of a case study for the music industry writ large at that time. I mean, this kind of thing could not happen anymore,

a band getting signed to Geffen Records that is an avant-hard band, is like, you know, very intentionally avant-garde and not trying to be a pop band and who was given even, I mean, not that Geffen Records exist anymore, but, you know, was given A&R privileges. So, I mean, they're the reason Nirvana was on Geffen. So, you know, for me, you know, this is a, this is a song that it's kind of, you know, it's kind of that perfect moment like the, the, it's, you know, it's before it's before 1979 by smashing pumpkins but it's got that house party scene

you know of like yeah yeah yeah kids of cool kids playing at a house party and it's got very different vibe yeah there's like there's you know it's it's it's kind of to me

um well it was the first video clip of theirs that I saw uh but it was uh it's kind of the the zenith of their 90sness, I guess, which you know, it's

that was around for three decades, pretty much. So it's really hard to describe them as being to any one decade, you know, I mean, they were already... That was part of the problem too. Yeah, they were, they sort of transcend era almost. You know, they, you can't claim any,

they can't be tied to any decade. You know, their work in the 2000s was as good. I guess for me, they are. Because my introduction to Sonic Youth was going through Blockbuster video on a Friday night looking for something

to rent. And I came across the special interest section. Do you remember the special interest section at Blockbuster? Fagely. That's where the music

tapes were. Okay. Special interest. That's really ominous. That's like, do you think people assume that was porn? Yeah,

I don't know. Everything else. That's what it was. It was everything else. And so I saw, the tape cover of 1991, the year punk broke.

And it said, it said Nirvana on it and it said punk on it. And I knew I liked those things. I liked and I knew that they were punk and that punk was cool. I don't know if I liked punk yet. I don't think I did. No, I didn't.

Because I was probably 11. Yeah. And so I got that tape. And it just blew my damn mind. And so for me, I very much anchored them to the 90s. My first record by them was goo, which was 19th. My first band's show, we covered moat at that show.

And fast forward a few years later, Parquet Courts got to cover that with Lee. That's much cooler. That was a real thing. And then there was the The Simpsons episode, Homer Palooza. Yeah, of course, of course. It had smashing pumpkins. It had Cypress Hill. Homer goes to the record store, suicide notes, formerly good vibrations.

There's a nine-inch nails poster. So this was my introduction to the band. And I was pretty, I was, I was, I guess, I guess I was kind of alarmed by, okay, so this tape was calling them punk, but they didn't have mohawks. They didn't sound like, they sounded odd and challenging. And I think I rented that tape several times. And I think the first time I ever saw it, I was like, what's with this bit?

Like, why are they the main band on this tape? Why is it? That's the initial reaction to Sonic Youth in general. But as I kept, as I kept renting it and kept watching it, because I go back like the lot, do I turn it in and then take it out. This is the blockbuster scheme. Yeah, you spent like $40, you know, to watch the same VHS tape, you know. Yeah, yeah. My dad was like, why does he like that tape? So I became obsessed and I became so intrigued at how weird it sounded. And I didn't know what, you know, what alternate tuning.

were or what prepared guitar was. So I would try to imitate these songs on my own, you know, standard concert tune in guitar. And what the fuck? Why doesn't it sound like Sonic Youth, you know? So it was just, you know what? That was a band that was, that changed my life and kind of altered the course of everything that came after that. I don't have many of those, but that's a band that for an after moment from when I heard them and they're one of the most influential bands for me and they had this, they were just kind of wrapped in

this mystery, you know? I would buy Span Magazine just in case they had wrote something about it. Yeah, yeah. And usually they had. It was such a mystery to me. Yeah. I remember, it was one of the first times I saw them,

it was 100%, and it was like a live MTV in school. studio thing. You know, and the first time you see Thurston, you know, doing what, like, just whapping the guitar with the drumstick or whatever, like this, the last 60 seconds of that song is like pure noise. Right? And even in context on MTV, like that was, you know, that was fairly mind-blowing for me, kind of frightening for me at the same time. It's cool you got to hang out with Lee. I have to say that Lee is my favorite. Like my, my favorite Sonic U-Sons tend to be Lee songs, like wish fulfillment is my favorite song.

on dirty and mode of course is great like i i hope it lee is cool right like lee is like a cool guy to hang out with right please tell me that he's not cool he's a total sweetheart and uh yeah and uh you know uh just uh whenever i talk to him talks like you know i'm a peer which is you know i've met a lot of people that i've admired over the years and that's not the case with everybody uh so i'm sure it isn't nothing but nothing but respect for lee rinaldo And I've toured with Thurston and Steve and the Thurston Moore band, Parkett courts, did a couple tours with them. Also, great dudes.

Yeah, I think to me, yeah, a band that has a vast career, but there is a certain sort of, you know, the 90s was when Sonic Youth, the world found out about Sonic Youth, right? They were an SST band in the 80s, you know, and on record labels like SST and Blast First. But, you know, the 90s was when they came into via Blockbuster via The Simpsons when they came into the American household. Right. The Blabuster thing is so great. Sonic Youth via Blockbuster is such a beautiful idea. That's how I first saw the wall.

I hope you didn't accrue the rental fees. Wow. Okay. You were a regular at the special interest section. That was your section. Somebody had to be, you know. I mean, somebody had to wipe the fucking dust off those tapes.

You know, it was like, it was my little secret, that little corner of blockbuster, like the special interest corner. It also had Nirvana on plugs there. That was there. Ah, all right. The thing I loved, I think Dirtya was my first Sonic Youth record that I owned. And I just loved the contrast.

Like, I bought it probably, 400% are sugar cane. I loved sugar cane as well. And then I ended up liking Lee songs the most, but then Kim Gordon, right? Like was clearly the coolest and also the scariest. Like I really dug the fact that there were three very distinct songwriters writing three different kinds of songs,

but they all worked together, but they were all separate at the same time. There was something really cool about how they were so clearly their own people, but they were also like a band. You know what I mean? Which has a lot to do of me being in the band that I'm in, because I responded to that too. Like, yeah, everybody's vibe was different,

and it was like the Beatles. You could have your favorite, you know? I like this one. Right, right, exactly. Yeah, back when band, like, you know, these cool clubs where you had to have a favorite, you know. Yeah. Who is the Paul McCartney of Sonic Youth?

I guess it would be, I guess it would probably be Lee. Because he's got that kind of sense of melody that I think is probably makes that. But I mean, who's the Paul McCartney of anybody, you know? It's a good question. You've convinced me. You've absolutely convinced me that I fucked this up because 100%. I remember vividly seeing it on MTV and being like, oh, my God. And having the same kind of is this punk, you know, just what punk means to a team.

teenager, you know, a suburban teenager who doesn't really know shit about shit. It's just like anything noisy and scary is punk by default. And like that sort of works itself out, you know, as you actually figure out what it is. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, there were probably at that time bands that I listened to more. Maybe Oasis or Smashing Pans. But Sonic Youth to me always was the. coolest that was always evident you know totally and uh i mean just like i remember watching the uh

i remember watching the video for uh oh shit which which one is it now i'm having a blank the one with um oh bull in the heather uh the one with kathleen hannah i was thinking about that the other day yeah steve you see him play his kit with moroccas during that chorus where he goes to that two And he's playing with Maracas. And I remember watching that and just thinking, oh, what a clever idea. Who would have thought of that? So my first band, my first, like, real band, you know,

you can be sure as shit. We had a song with a drummer. I'm sure it sounded awesome. I'm sure it sounded just like. Okay. In all honesty, it's been bad ass. Okay. Okay.

Good. You're owning it. That's great. Thank you, Andrew. This has been fantastic. I am convinced. Thank you, man. Yeah.

Keep up the. good work and I'm looking forward to whatever you do next. Our next guest, it would be rude to do this without Yassi Salick, host of Bansplaine and 24 question party people, dear friend of this podcast, National Treasure. It's nice to talk to you again, Yassie. I feel like more of an international treasure. No, okay, that's fair. Intergalactic.

You say it's rude to do it without me as if, like, you weren't going to include me and someone made you? No, I'm just, I'm saying. in a hypothetical universe in which we didn't include you, which to be clear we are including you like what's happening right now is the inclusion. And that was always the plan. And so, so yes, it's the rudeness was purely in an alternate universe. You brought it up. I just, I didn't even occur to me. That's true. This is, see, this is the rapport that people come to both. This is the gold that people are really, really here for. Yeah, see, I, what song should we

have done. Babe, where do I even fucking begin? I mean, I know. Sir. I mean,

there's a few that are like maybe more personal. Here's, okay, here's one where I feel like in some ways the 90s are misrepresented,

right? Everyone's like, yes, grunge, cool. And it's like, it was really a lot of life as a highway,

like every day of your life on the radio. It was like 15% life is a highway overall. You're right about that. You know what I mean? Tom Cochran, babe? He like really made a smash hit with that and you didn't even give him any respect. I didn't. Didn't you walk out to that song? That's right. Did our live event? Yeah, that's what I thought. What, do you have any idea what Tom was up to before or after life is a highway? I don't want to, he probably isn't a one hit wonder, you know, but like that's a really weird giant blip in a person's career.

just so you know I did do a light research apparently that song was like already 10 years old that he had written in his old band and it was called love as a highway and then he just sort of updated it and put it out I just feel like that is major Wilson Phillips is in the same milieu like really the 90s was a lot of hold on for one more day and life as a highway but then like in the actual thing that you were doing you also

miss some major players. Candlebox, bit? Where's candlebox? Where's you? Far behind. Far behind is you is great.

You know, the fuck you and you was very formative to me. Remember the Ksingle? It was an x-ray of a hand giving a middle finger. I didn't do. I thought you were just

flipping me off. You were demonstrating. I don't. I did not. I wasn't. This is an audio only. I was. I was like,

this is cool because I was like whatever 12 or 11 years old. I was like instant dollar, 99 allowance purchase. They were rebels, candlebox from the beginning.

When I read Mark Yarm's book, The Oral History of Grunge, I felt really bad. Yeah, it's awesome. And I felt so bad for how rude everyone was to candlebox. They were like the grunge carpet bagger.

But they were just dudes from Seattle. Like it wasn't their fault that they weren't Soundgarden. They're messy bitches who live for drama in that book. And that's why I love it. Because you really only. get the people who like seem to not care what like they're like i don't care kim thail i don't give a fuck he's like i'll drag everyone's ass straight to hell i don't give a single shit drop detuning i

taught you all that get fucked um yeah but candlebox is not as egregious babe as as bush in all the like fake grunge bands like bush was major babe they tore it okay how many singles were off of that fucking 16 stone album come down machine head yeah you didn't give respect to glycerin like i cannot believe that's a very it's a valid complaint machine head is the song the columbus blue jackets our hockey team still come out to machine head or i hope that they do really funny it is very funny the first one their inaugural year in like 2000 or 2001 it was iful 65's blue Right. It was I'm blue about it.

Yeah. And it was like, that was the least intimidating hockey entrance music I've ever heard in my life. And they switched it to machine head. And it was awesome. More powerful. But no, glycerine is great because it's the song that everyone in high school wanted to learn to play. And it was attainable, right? Like, it's just four chords.

Like, it's the simplest. Gavin Rosdill did that for you. He did that for you guys so you could impress your girlfriends. Do you know the song is about like a It's like a super model girlfriend Is that true? Because the lyrics, the actual words When we rise, it's like strawberry fields.

Yeah, it's they don't really hold up, you know, to scrutiny as poetry. It's not about the lyrics. It's about the emotion. It's about Gavin Rosdell's cheekbones. It's about the vibe. Very impressive bone. structure, yeah. Yeah.

I mean, unswallowed, babe. You know, do you know a Razorblade suitcase? That was a number one album in the entire country. Did you know that? And you still disrespected Bush. I have greedously disrespected Bush because I owned both of those albums. Of course you did. You're a human being with ears and a heart.

You're knocking up. Ostensibly, yeah. I still listen to swallowed like several times a week. Several times a week. Yeah, it's on this like, I. have like a six random. Do you ever make these like really random

playlists that you never finish making? So there's like only six songs on them. This is like my six song morning playlist. You do this a lot. There was, there's a story about you driving. Let's not talk about Loro by Pinnback twice on the one.

Wow. That's that is pin, are Pinnback and Bush on the same playlist? No, no. This is a different. This is a different. They could though.

Glissorin and Loro could really seamlessly flow into each other. Right, right. Is glycerine the one for you? Bush-wise. Oh my God, yeah. That one still honestly rips my heart out. Do I know what it's about?

No. Everything's gone white. Everything's gray. Now you're here. Now you're away. It's what most rock love songs are about, which is touring. Right, right, right.

Unrelatable, but it really, I'm sorry. It is, it gets me every time. It's such a beautiful, gorgeous, just doesn't have violins in it? Am I making that up? It does. right? It does. Yeah, that's the violin song. Yes, of course.

That's a classic. Somebody played that at a high school talent show, like two dudes, you know, sitting next to each other looking somber and one's got the electric guitar and all the, you know, you could feel, you know, that you could sense all the ladies swooning. Just melting. That's right. I'm surprised you didn't learn to play this for one of your famous open mic performances. I should have. That would have been a crowd pleaser for sure. And it would have been way more attainable than most of the songs that I was trying to play in that era. Did you do blues traveler runaround? That's the last song I wanted to take you to TASPER, which by the way, blues travel runaround is on that good morning playlist with swallow. Yeah. Sure. That makes that makes total sense.

Because you're like, I like coffee and I like tea, but to be able to enter the final plea, still got this dream that you just can't shake. I love you to the point you can no longer take. Well, all right. Okay. So be that way. I have the whole song, I'm memorize. I won't take up. I won't take up more of your time with that. Can you do the harmonica solo, though? That would be the true test of greatness there. I know. Blues Traveler fucking tore it, bitch. Like, who else? Who else put a harmonica solo like that on the fucking radio? And you were living. Nobody. Tom Cochran did actually. It's a good point. It's a very different. We brought it circular back to life being a highway. Life is a highway is important for me because, as you know, it's something I say to my. therapist often and she does not like it. She doesn't. Like she,

she considers it glib to just quote song lyrics as plays over as emotion. She'll be like, you seem extremely depressed. I'm concerned what's going on. And I'm like, you know, bib, life is a highway. And she's like, okay, or my other one is, that's show biz baby. She also doesn't like when I say

that's showbiz baby. I should not be laughing at that, but that is, I pay for that. Can you imagine? I pay for that to show up for an hour to say that's show biz baby to my therapist. Just to quote Tom Cochran to my very expensive Jungian analyst. That's therapeutic for you, I guess. That's right. Do you feel guilty, Rob, about any of these omissions? Like, I feel guilty about all of them. This show is driven and has been driven from the beginning. All of your aborted episode children you feel sad about. Catholic guilt, Midwestern guilt, you know, just various types of guilt harmonizing beautifully.

Has anyone contacted you? Has anyone contacted you? Because I know you, I get pitched, so you must get pitched. Like, did people be like, please, I would love it if you would do, you know, come back down from this cloud? Yeah, no, Bush has for sure come up. I'm trying to think of the highway. Bush has definitely contacted me several times. Gavin Rosdell has personally sent me several. handwritten letters to be like, where, when do I get to be? On official bush letterhead, just being like, when, when are you doing the full bush deep dive? The chemicals between us, they've got an arc. They did. They did a dance remix. You know, Albini worked on Razor Blade suitcase.

Yeah, of course. Yeah, I'm sure they got along famously. I think you probably best friends. Albini does not say no to anything. No, he is not. I'm egalitarian. That's one of the ones where he charged way more. He's like,

we have a sliding scale. That's right. You are here on the Bush end of the scale, yes. That'll be $8 million. I feel bad about all of these. Bush, you know, there's a weird blind spot for Bush candlebox.

I just like Stone Temple Pilots, right? You didn't just stone temple pilots? I didn't even think to control F that one on your document that you sent me because I was like, surely this man did not skip. I'm sorry. Plush? Plush is the other great open mic, not open mic, talent show, high school talent show classic. But the teachers wouldn't let them play it because, you know, there's a dead girl in it or whatever. that was censored for lyrical content.

What about my wicked garden? Find me. So what I have no. So what I have now? They had multiple bangers. And then they just like fully shifted into being Led Zeppelin. But still. That's right.

Tripping on paper heart. Bye. Yeah, that's a good one. Big Bang, baby, etc. Crash, crash, crash. Yeah, they're from San Diego. So that kind of maybe disqualified them from their grunge. You say that with so much loving contempt.

Well, Edward Better also in many ways is from San Diego. In some ways not, but. No, I really, this vector, you know, not, I don't want to say second tier, but not like the elite, you know, overpraised, you know, critically adorned grunge. You know, this is a universe. Like better than Ezra isn't grunge, right? But like just sort of genre. You didn't.

Did you do Waha? I did not do Waha. It was good living with you. My God, Rob. I know. This is. You were like, we have to do the macarena. We need to dedicate an entire episode to explaining the macarena, which fair enough, it was a cultural phenomenon. But like, someone had to get edged out.

And it was the deceased Scott Weiland, may he rest of peace. Okay. You would disrespect to the dead is what you did. That's when you put it. like that, that is absolutely what I did. That man lived and died for grunge adjacent music, and you didn't even include him.

I apologize to him, to you, to San Diego, uh, you know, to anyone else who wants an apology. There's an amazing Edward Vetter quote from like an early Pearl Jam interview by Cameron Crow and like Rolling Stone or something where they're like,

did you see this Stone Temple Pilots video? This guy is like doing you or whatever. And he, He gets very upset and he is like, you know, I'm not, I do my own thing. I'm not going to paraphrase, but it's, it's very funny that it even comes up and like already they're being called posers from like day one on the MTV. And of course, Eddie Vedder is like, I don't even have MTV. Eddie Vedder is the least. He is the most I don't own a TV human being who has ever lived.

One million percent. But it's real. When it comes from him, I believe it. that's right exactly he has a phonograph player in his house rolling with a giant horn yeah totally

he's like it sounds better no you guys listen to vinyl babe I spend the black circle over here on the fucking phonograph I have a player piano preloaded with all of Neil Young's greatest hits yes

wow I really we did 120 episodes of this show but we didn't really do shit did we did we not did you do that because of 120 minutes? Was that a little nod? This is a travesty. No,

that would require foresight, which has not really ever been our thing. Well, let's go ahead and say that's why we did it. You did a great thing, Rob. People, you're a beloved. Thank you.

By men everywhere. Multiple women. At least tens of twenties of women. There is a percentage split there, I suspect. You are the international treasure, TBH. I pale in comparison to your popularity and belovedness. Okay.

It's true. They were like, you know, they said it couldn't be done. They said you couldn't spend 80 to 90% of a podcast about a single song talking about everything besides that song, starting from like your fifth grade talent show, moving to college. And you did it, babe. you showed them wrong, just like they told me you can't make a five-hour podcast. And I was like, hold my beer, bitch.

That's right. It's like, when you say they said it couldn't be done, you're talking about our mutual editor and producing. Talking about literally our bosses who were like, don't do this. Please don't have done this. Why are you doing this? Please stop doing this. And we were like, sure, yeah, yeah. That's, yeah, I'll get it right around to you. Thank you for everything, Yassie.

Oh, my God. Thank you. Just getting to hang out with you so much has been one of the raddest things about this whole endeavor and I'm glad we finally met in person. I know. It was so huge. You're so tall. I am. It's unnecessary.

Your children are tall. Your wife is beautiful and perfect. It was your parents are perfect. It was really deeply satisfying for me the entire meeting green room. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you so much, Yoss. Thank you, Rob.

Congratulations. Our next guest is our dear friend, Elamene Abdel-Makmood, host of the great CBC podcast commotion, author of the book, Son of Elsewhere, a memoir in pieces. Proud Canadian, which might be a focal point today. Elamene, thank you for coming back so soon. What 90s song should we have done? Rob, I am delighted that you asked me to come back. Before I get to the song, I just have to say, I'm here to complain to the manager.

To whoever is running this place. You know, there is, I have issues with the ardor. neglect that is going on here because there have been some over paper i've got paper you've got like a manifesto this is frightening i didn't mean interrupt you please there there are there are some songs that have been overlooked that i can maybe talk myself into letting go right i can say to myself rob wasn't a better than ezra guy because i don't know he doesn't like the kevin griffin voice i can say to myself rob doesn't like love that's why if you could only see by is not on this list.

You know, I can even say to myself, Rob doesn't like old people, which is why Bob Dylan's time out of mind is nowhere here. Sorry, Bob Dylan. We have no time because Rob's out of his mind. Exactly. But the thing that I can't let go

is I can't let the show end without taking you to task for not including the tragically hip. Anywhere on this line. this, pal. I just can't do it. Cannot allow that. This bums me out. This really bums me out. I said before that I wish I had kept track of every suggestion I've ever gotten, like on, you know, tweets, you know, emails or whatever. Because the tragically hip have always been like high up on the list of things people were emailing me about. Yeah. Like the specificity and the intensity of the tragically hip fandom I have always been very impressed by.

So I what who why are the tragically hip so important? And do you think that it's clear to people who do not live in Canada how important the tragically hip are? I'm glad that you brought up the Canada thing. First of all, I appreciate that your preamble is basically, I could have done something about this, but I didn't. What are you going to do? Yeah, which is, which is try to be honest. I'm keeping it 100. You are keeping 100.

Look, I wrestle a lot with this because I, nations aren't real, but patriotism is, you know, so I'm going to yell about the song of my people. I think you can be, you know, forgiven for your Canadian neglect. You can say to me, Elamine, my first episode was, you know, a Ladis Morissette. And I did Shania, and I did Celine. And I can say to you, look, you can neglect Sarah McLaughlin over my dead body. But the thing about the tragically hip to me is that they are the clearest to say. of REM. They're the clearest descendants of the project of REM.

These are the people who best, I think, embody the ethos of taking something that is very weird and should never be commercial and then making it so. I mean, I say this while living in a country that where the tragic group have sold 6.5 million records. Dude, we are a country of 60 people. That's every, every Canadian owns 100,000. tragically hip records because it's quite a catalog individually that you have there. And I think like the other reason beside being the descendants of REM that we're talking about here

is the thing that you just mentioned. How can a band be so big to a nation right beside you but also barely register in the United States? I'm thinking here of the tragically here performing grace to at S&L and being introduced. I think it was Dan Aykroyd was doing the introduction. And for this country that I live in, this was a huge significant moment. And for you, people, it was nothing. It was like, oh, let's see me the SNL has on this week. Let's just keep it moving past that.

I think the tragically belong in this, like, in this list because they are kind of emblematic of the 1990s bent towards regionalism. Like, every once in a while, you've got a band that's so well represented a region in an area that you had to be from that place to understand them, you know? And the fact that you neglected them will never sit right with my soul. I'm very sorry. I'm very, very sorry. The REM, the continuing the project of REM thing is very interesting to me.

So REM, obviously, are so redolent of the South, right? You know, that's, of course, a very regional thing. So what, this is very broad, but like what makes the tragically hip Canadian? What is the very specific sound vibe project that they had that resonated so strongly with Canadians? The tragic clip has been that engaged with a lot of Canadian myths. And by this, I mean, there's like larger Canadian narratives in their lyrics, like directly in their lyrics, at a time when national identity was quite fraught. I mean, the tragic clip come to being while this country is like, do we want to be a part of NAFTA?

I don't know. that will maybe ruin us as a country. And then you kind of fast forward, like, tragically hip are at their highest, you know, power during a period of time when Quebec is, in Canada, Quebec is like, should we leave this country? I don't know, maybe we should. And in fact, it came this close to leaving the country.

And so the tragicly hip sort of spent a lot of time investing energy into Canadian myths and Canadian larger stories. I mean, this is a band that can make people, sing out loud a song about a very famous wrongful conviction case. Wheat Kings is this song that is about this David Milgard story, which is a very famous story in Canada that is not at all well known in the United States about a man who spent 23 years in prison after, and then DNA evidence exonerated him.

And so they took these ideas. My friend Tom has this thing that he says where I don't know if he's the one who originated this or somebody else said it to him, but the tragically took, they're the, only band that could make like a hockey bro in Canada for four minutes and 30 seconds, just think about poetry for a moment. And that is, that is, that's their incredible achievement is that they could do, they could do the REM thing of, hey, I'm listening to a band that has deeply developed, um, beautiful lyrics or I'm just here to dance and have a good time and these hoax sure are fun, you know? Right. Yeah. Do you think it bothers them? Do you think it bothered them that they weren't

bigger outside of Canada? Do they want to break America? You know, they played S&L. I remember songs crossing over to pop radio. Like ahead by a century, I remember being like a minor hit, like in Cleveland, right? In the mid-90s, you know? But like, were they actively trying to get huge in America? Are they sort of proud, you know, of the very specific regionalism that they have?

I think the thing that's set the judging game apart is that they were very okay. with being Canada's band, in fact, quite a bit of time, quite a bit of their career, they spent saying, yeah, we will happily embrace this label. We're not going to let it be uncomplicated, because patriotism should be complicated in all cases. And they engage with a lot of like the mythologies of what Canada is supposed to be. But it was not a band that seemed obsessed with trying to break into the United States. And quite often when you see bands in this country, you know, have success with their first album, second album,

all their energies sort of begin to shift in that direction. And you go, no, can this just be ours? But of course, 60 people live here, Rob,

and that you can't make much of a living playing all 60 people. Sure. Yeah. The radio thing is always very interesting to me, like the rules that Canadian radio has about playing Canadian artist

and how that sort of bolstered everybody. You know, we're tragically hip, arguably the biggest, you know, they benefited the most, you know, from the radio support that they had. So, yeah, for people who are not familiar, we have a system called CanCon, the Canadian content system. Radio stations have to play about 35% Canadian music. 35%? I didn't know. Was that high? So it's quite high. And as a result, you end up getting songs. You do. You end up getting songs.

that are massive in this country that no one else has heard of anywhere else. If you can look it up, there's like a TikTok series of these Canadians who moved to an American university, I think, to play hockey. And what they do is they invite their American friends and they just play songs that were big in Canada

that no one has heard in the States and is just a bunch of Americans looking like, this isn't a thing. I'm sorry to say. But to the Canadians, you're like, I recognize this song because this was played constantly. It also ends up creating stars in this country, right? It ends up creating an opportunity for a lot of bands

that otherwise would not get it, because you get to say, this was made here for us and by us, and we get to celebrate it. And we can be quite protective of CanCon. At one of the biggest shows of my youth, which was Green Day, you know, at the Blossom music,

amphitheater. Yeah. You know, I think in 1994, Moist was one of the opening bands. Oh, buddy. Oh, buddy. I mean, Moise is another perfect creation of the Cancon system. That's what I was, that's what I was wondering, you know, if they were like, I wonder if Moist made the TikTok series.

I don't think, like, this is not a thing in America. But it was, kind of. Well, what's funny about that is all, like, that TikTok series is entirely about, like, contemporary songs, like artists who are massive here, now that if you go to Americans, you go like, hey, have you heard of this? They would say, I don't know who that is. And this cannot be a real song that people know. And yet, you know, if you listen to the radio, these songs are being played with frightening frequency.

35% is wild, dude. That's really, it's impressive. Well, you know, it helps a music scene become what it is, right? Maybe the thing to say is it's hard to appreciate for it. Americans, how inundated we are with American content all the time. I mean, everywhere else has its own sort of ecosystem of developing content. I think we're particularly vulnerable because we border the United States. A lot of that content comes over the border.

And if you're not careful, suddenly you find yourself telling only the stories of other people and you start to forget the stories that make us a wee. And I think the tragically hip, for better or for worse, because I think a lot of people got frustrated with how much of a giant, noct shadow they cast over Canadian music. They became kind of like a perfect symbol of, oh, this is the band that gets played all the time. This is the band that represents what people think of when they think of Canadian music. When roughly did that happen, that radio rule? And is there any, is it controversial at all? Are there, you know, is there any push to change it?

Or is it so entrenched now that like everybody's pretty into it? Ain't nobody trying to change the CanCon rules over here, Rob Harvilla. Ain't nobody. No, it's actually not controversial. I think like I've heard rumblings of people who want to push it to 40. And and the, but the reason that they do is again, because you cannot regulate the hits that become hits because of TikTok. And so suddenly you have Canadian music occupy an even smaller space in the pop culture arena. And so if this is like the one place where you can control it, why not?

I'd just say like CanCon is not like only Canadian artists. It's a maple system, M-A-P-L, because that's a Canada thing. And M is for music, written by, you know, so written by an artist has to, the A is for artist, the P is for producer, the L is for lyricist. For lyricist. And so if you have two of those people, if you have an M and an A or A or P or L, if you've got two of those categories,

so the person who wrote it is Canadian and the lyricist is Canadian, then suddenly like, yeah, all right, this counts as a Canadian song. Which is, it's worth mentioning that the new Beyonce songs that just dropped after the Super Bowl, they might qualify as CanCon because they have Dave Hamlin,

who's from the Canadian band The Stills. He's one of the producers on one of those songs. And Lle and Bulo are two Canadian artists who wrote on those songs. Suddenly, you can count those songs maybe as Canadian content, even though the artist, Beyonce is demonstrably not. No, Beyonce is Canadian. That's absolutely what you just said. And that's news to me.

I know. We're breaking news on this podcast. Here we are. Okay, the tragically hip have quite a daunting catalog, and so to wrap up, like, is there an album? You know, what song would you have had me do? And where is the entry points, you know, album-wise for somebody just not up on the tragically hip at all?

As I was coming into the studio to record this, someone said, you know, maybe Grace 2, grace too is the one because toward later, later on in their career, they started. started most of their shows with Grace, too. It's also the song that they played at S&L, and he was this big moment in Canada. But my instinct actually is to say Bob Cajun. It's a lovely little song. It is them at their most tender and romantic.

It's a lovely light song that kind of gets you in the heart. And so Bob Cajun is going to be my answer, pal. All right. What album is that? It's from Phantom Power, 1998. Phantom Power, 1999. 9999. Close enough.

All right. The tragically hip. I should have done all of these. Better than Ezra? I had that tape, man. There was one episode where I was going to try and do the yeah, that's right guy at the end of good. You know, the guy. But like, my voice just would not.

I would have like blown out my voice in real time. You're attempting to replicate that. I had to break it to you. But like, you do the show. Like, you can control that. You know what I mean? Like this is, it remains. as we speak within your power.

Okay, well, that's, you make an interesting point there. Yeah. Yes, I do feel genuinely bad about the tragically hip, and I would like to apologize to both you and Canada and to, you know, the whole Cancon, Maple System, all these, all these names and acronyms are very helpful to me as well. What are we going to do, not accept your apology? Apology accepted, Rob. That is, it would be not very Canadian of you to, you know, yeah.

It would be, listen, before I go, just on the, if I'm allowed to make more suggestions, Rob Harvilla. My last suggestion is a suggestion from my friend Lauren, who said, how could you possibly wrap up the show without doing an episode on all the compilations that got us through the 90s? And when I think about women in songs too, I think she might be right. So I'm just saying, think about it. Yeah, no, like you're talking about like the crow, you know, and like, like reality bites and things of that nature. What are you? I mean, listen, in Canada, we had a system, not a system, a compilation called Big Shiny Tunes, which comes out. Big Shiny Tunes.

Yeah. Big Shiny Tunes, too, is one of the top selling albums of all time in Canada. And it's, it was compiled by Much Music. and much music would put together a list of saying, like, here's the biggest rock songs of this year. Please enjoy them. And then you'd go out and buy this compilation disc. And that was like a part of 90s culture

that I don't think we talk about enough. But, you know, if only I had a show where I could talk about 90s culture regularly. I'm looking at this track list right now. And this is, we kick off with the prodigy, we can breathe. We got Song 2, Semi Charm Life,

Walking on the Sun, Fly, Sugar Ray, drinking in L.A by Brand Van 3, 3,000. A Canadian classic. That's right. Of course.

Marilyn Manson, Holly McNarland. Do you know who Harley? Holly, is that, is she Canadian? Is she Canadian? She probably is. I feel bad.

I mean, there are Canadian, listen, there's also Canadian content rules, I think, to those compilations in a way. Sure. Yeah.

Wide-mouth Mason. I'm not familiar with. Yeah. The age of electric. The ways you're saying the names of Canadian bands. Yes, we do. Wide-mouth mason. Yeah.

Wide-mouthed. It's, yeah, that's, it's. It's a mason jar. It's a, you know. Oh, I see. Yeah. But this is, this is, my job is to bring Canadian culture to you. It's up to you or you do with it.

Yeah. This is a diamond certified album in Canada. All 60 people in Canada on this record. That's right. Extremely impressive. Yes, sir. All right. Thank you so much for your wisdom and your patience and your grace, Elamene.

You are a testament. You know, it's both podcasters and Canadians. Rob, that's the nicest thing anyone's ever said about me. Thank you so much, pal. It's been a delight. Thank you. Thank you, Matt. Our next guest, we are thrilled to welcome Alex Steed,

co-host of the podcast. You Are Good. a feelings podcast about movies. He also hosts the Twitch interview show called Average Stories. Alex, thank you so much for being here. Which song should I have done? I almost feel bad, suggesting that you missed something because you did so many great things. Nobody else feels bad.

I'll tell you that much. Let's be clear. I said I almost feel bad. Okay, right, okay. You manage, you're pulling through and managing to still feel. Okay. Every week, I was like, flagpole sita by Harvey Danger has to be coming next. How is it not next?

And then I started pitching myself for flagpole sit. I'm not going to take it personally. Okay. Please don't. Nigo Stratas has been in your show several times. And I almost started a standalone podcast about flagpole sita as a result. I couldn't tell if that was ironic or not. We were going to make a full show.

That was eight episodes dedicated to this one song. That's how I think you could totally have. I think you totally could have done that. There's still a viable idea. So many words. So many words. Dementions. There are a lot of words, first of all.

Yes. That's right. Yes. Maybe even 10 episodes. Why did you not cover it? Why did I not cover it? I was just saying to Yasi that I feel like it's not grunge necessarily, but like this. sort of alt-rock sphere that I broadly lump like bush candlebox you know the stone temple pilots

you know harder rock but like ryer you know maybe a little bit sillier like the presidents of the united states of america sort of fall into this nerve herder like things of that nature right in my nerve herder in my wheelhouse that's right you know just just the wiser extended universe is one way You can, they seem, this realm seems underrepresented as I look at this list of 120 songs. I feel like, I think the reason I feel so strongly about this, I feel strongly for many reasons, but I think one of the reasons I feel strongly is it feels like it was the last good alternative song on the radio before it, the whole genre started to cannibalize itself into the limpiscuit territory. Like it feels like it was like the last. You know, like, it's like, it's like you had the Telecommunications Act happen and sort of the ownership sort of changed.

And like you had you had limited incarnations of like what alternative could be. And it started to cannibalize itself. It feels like this was like the last interesting part of the 90s. And it's not just because it came out like the week that I turned 15 and that's the last time I was absorbing new and interesting things. I promise. That's just a coincidence. It just so happens to be a quince. Sure.

1997, I agree with you on this. 1997 is a really fascinating time. Like when we talk about like the new radicals, for example, or like, I think about like sugar ray, you know, things like that. Just the atomization of alternative rock after grunge sort of peaked, right? For sure. 495, like grunge is no longer, you know, we sort of move into Green Day and the offspring, things like that. But for 1997, we've talked a lot on this show about like the weird pocket where something like, you know, like Flagpole Cidic, it suddenly get huge. And I, I think you're

on to something with everything thereafter being new metal, you know, in sound, if not in spirit, right? you know, like, I can get with you on this song being the end. I didn't, and the thing for me was I also didn't know. This was the first thing. Obviously, I'd learn and unpack the traditions and understand eventually, but I didn't know that songs about like angst and criticism and Gen X's sort of cynicism and mental illness, I didn't know that they could sound like this. I thought that it had to come from Kurt Kobay.

or Chris Cornell or Lane Staley. I thought that and it was, this was the first time that I was like, oh, you can feel and express that and smile. Right. Right. And I'm such a,

I'm like a, I'm like a, they might be giants guy. I'm like, oh, sure. Right? Sure.

I just listen to fashion nuggets start to finish yesterday. Yes. That's a fantastic record to listen to start. That's the only way to listen. to that record. That is a full album experience. Oh, it for sure is. You put that on, you put that, that's a good vinyl record. You get like a martini or something and you just, you have yourself. I was in Sacramento and it was like, I got to listen to fashion. There you go. That's right. And it's just honoring hometown heroes. Yes, I, it's very interesting to me that the idea that

this is like, you know, the end of something, the end of the quote unquote alternative era. You know, the end of the 90s, you know, the way we think about the sound of the 90s now, right? You know, new metal sort of crosses into and sort of defines the early 2000s. And so this is the last sort of big, grungy alternative rock. Yeah, it's the end of when they let college radio be a part of alternative. It's the end of when it's the end of like the B-52s and REM as alternative music. And the beginning of alternative being an imitation of alternative being an imitation of alternative. Right.

Yes. Yes. Are you a Harvey Danger guy broadly? No. I remember. No. Okay. I've since become friends with Sean Nelson, which is a very strange thing for hearing the voice of the guy who said, I want to publish zines.

And I was publishing zines that strange to me. But I love and I respect what they did. But that wasn't it for me. although I know great and intelligent and wonderful people who are so into that band. I don't care one way or another. Yeah, I remember, I was reading a lot of Spin magazine in the late 90s, and like they Spin really got behind the next Harvey Danger record,

King James Version from 2000. And it was when it felt bad for them, but it was one of those things where Spin had to be like, no, these guys are actually good. Like you should actually listen to more than one song by these guys. And it's sort of that damning with faint praise 90s. rock critic sort of vibe. But like people really respect, you know,

this band's whole catalog, you know, and Sean has sort of gone on to be, you know, just sort of a voice of wisdom. Yes. You know, and that's, that's very, he's a real wizard. Yes, yes.

What were your zines about that you were publishing at this time? Oh, God. They were, I was a big, I was two things. I was a huge Kevin Smith fan. Sure, sure. George Carlin fan. Wow.

Imagine a person who didn't read that much but love those guys trying to be like them. Yeah, that's really hard to picture. It was bad. That's hilarious. But I still make them. I'm 40. Still doing it.

Didn't stop me. I'm getting the sense that you like extreme wordiness. Oh, yeah. There's like a nightmare blunt rotation, you know, between George Carlin and Kevin. Smith and Sean, you know, it's like, that's, can't get a word in edgewise. We're covering for the new, we're covering for you are good, we're covering mall rats,

which I watched this morning before this conversation. And that is a movie that Kevin Smith was like, I want to write monologues, but disguise them as dialogue. And that just sums up where I was coming from at 15. Sure. Does mall rats hold up? No, it's bad. These are bad men.

Yeah. But it's a great thing. It's a fabulous time capsule. Sure. Yes. Just in the the soundtrack, man. It's definitely the door. God.

Yeah. Suzanne? Suzanne. Bill me up buttercup? Oh, that's right. So good. It's so good. Are you still a Kevin Smith fan?

Are you up? Are you currently? No, no. Absolutely not. I was barely there during Jay and Silent Bob strike back. But I will say this. When I was a kid, I was very sort of on the Kevin Smith message boards.

And he and I did a lot of, I remember there's like some national disaster with like tornadoes. I did a lot of fundraising within my school. And I called Kevin Smith's office and asked if he would help and he matched my donations, this 15 year old kid that just called him randomly. So I'm forever indebted to his heart. and uninterested in his art. And he seems like a sweet enough guy to sort of get that delineation, right? I don't think he's taking this very personally.

No, I owe him a lot in many, many ways. And I don't need to subscribe to him in order to honor that. Flagpole said, really, that would have been such a great episode. That would have been an enormous amount of fun. I would have just quoted the entire thing. How would you do line by line? Do you have to be so much time back? I want to publish scenes and rage against the machines.

Oh my God. So good. So good. I screwed up. Thank you for being so kind about it, Alex. Rob, truly, thank you for doing what you do and elevating this form.

I appreciate it. Well, thank you, man. Right back out of you, but I really appreciate you coming on, man. Thank you. Have a great time. Our next guest is our dear friend Leslie Gray Streeter, columnist for the Baltimore Banner, author of the memoir, Black Widow novelist. She's writing a novel. Look out for her novel. Leslie, as always, it is delightful to talk to you.

Hello, which song should I have done? I'm going to say Week by SWV's Sisters with Voices. Excellent choice. Excellent. Excellent. Total fuck up on my part. I love this. song very much. You can't do everything, you know, even though you now are just 113 songs, more than 16. 116, yes. There you go. It's just, what I love the most about your show is that you've been able to, you want to get

things that are representative of genres, of movements, of like that 10 years of music just move so fast and it's so many facets to it. So you can't get everything. But, you know, you did. You did like TLC, you know, you've done some of those like R&B girl group things. But I think that SWV is incredibly underrepresented. And like, because everyone knows that song and they know Antointyu and they know a bunch of other things. But it's such, they're, they were just fun.

And they were kind of like beautifully ratchet in a way. And that song. That's an excellent phrase. That's a lovely phrase. They were. And we specifically, because it's in that genre of, you know, this is probably wrong, but I love you so much. I guess so we're doing this. It's a great, great genre, yeah. I was about 22 when the song came out, and that was, I could have written that song because it's like written from 22-year-old DNA. Yeah. Okay.

It's so good. And also, they sound so great. And this that I've heard. that butchered so many times in karaoke because everyone... Oh, really? Ooh. That they can do that. And it's hard. I actually, of course I have a story. I was on a karaoke cruise and I was...

I won like my one on a second karaoke cruise and I was supposed to be defending my title or whatever, like in the semifinals, whatever it is. And I had the sorest throat ever. And I was supposed to do weak and I just couldn't do it. I wound up doing like fame. Of course, that did not go well. David Bowie's fame. No, no.

Irene Kara's fame. Oh, that's different. Okay, did you say your second cruise, meaning you went on a karaoke cruise one and got to go in a second one? I went to cruise for work at the Palm Beach Post. They were doing this thing where they wrote about, it was like a two-night cruise that went from West Palm Beach, the Bahamas. it was their first international cruise

on the Port of Palm Beach. So they happened to have a karaoke contest. And I competed and I won and because I won that day that I was there, I got to come back the prize was you get to come back. And I was like, oh, it would be really fun. And I was terrible.

It was terrible. I tried to sing weak and my voice was just like, nope. I don't know why you go to fame. Like fame, I'm going to live? That sounds harder to sing. It's so hard to sing, but it's the forgive me.

And I knew I couldn't do it. I knew I couldn't do it. I got to the beginning of the song there's no way. Because that's the money run. That is, yeah, you got to nail that if you're going to. I could not do it. And I was like, let's do

something that's like upbeat and like R&B-ish but fun. And it was fame. And I was like this. I was like, and it's such a long song. And you're like, and there's a key change. That's the worst. Oh, the key changes are even, yeah, length and key changes you want to avoid. Long outros.

Yeah, there's a lot of pitfalls. And you and I have talked about karaoke and who does karaoke and the karaoke songs that people tend to. And there's always a group of people who get up and they like the song, but they don't think about it's three verses and a bridge and a chorus that repeats three. times and a key change and the outro goes and the karaoke DJ is not cutting the outro off and it's just like oh it's torture even if you sound it good you're like oh my god because I used to do karaoke all the time and go you know what I'm done thank you no you just cut it off that's a pro that's an elite move right there just knowing when your time is over so weak is one of these songs it's longer than you think and harder than you think because just trying to picture it that seems

attainable, you know, especially if you're with a group of drunk friends. Yes. Right? Like you imagine you're going to nail the harmonies or whatever, but I can totally picture the hubris of you walking up there and then not realizing what you're in for. The group of drunk friends is the key to most karaoke situations because you're all drunk. Or like I told you before, like to go into a situation where no one expects you to do the song that you do and you throw in some damn Yankees or.

some eagles or whatever. That's still my favorite image of you is you doing high enough. And people get very confused. And it's really. Very stirring. To watch them be confused. But when you walk up and you got your friends gas, you're like, we're going to do this thing. And there's, you're going to be this part.

You over do Disney Chiles. You're Michelle, you're Kelly, your Beyonce. No, you're not. No, you are not. Okay. And if everyone is drunk and having a time, it's fine. But if you walk up like, you're. you're giving a preview from your next concert.

And that's your attitude. It doesn't work. And hopefully... You've got to set expectations. Hopefully they'll just let you die by yourself and like quietly and like go off to nurse your wounds with like a vodka and coke or whatever. But otherwise it's terrible. But yeah, this song like I said, just sums up that perfect idea of what it is to be a young woman where, you're singing this song about this guy,

and it's all about feelings. It's all about like vulnerability. It's all about like, can I trust you? And it just, I try hard to fight it in a way, can I deny? It's like you probably should.

You know, because we know, most people you love when you were 22, it was a bad scene. No, it's not a great era for anybody. No, it's not.

But it just sounds so beautiful. I don't think a lot of those songs, even some of their other, songs because of the the bead or the production can sound dated. And I don't think that song sounds dated. I believe that some young group of women could sing that song right now. And it would sound like an invitation because it's been done to perfection before.

Also, Taj, who is married to Eddie George, is my favorite survivor of all time. She was on Survivor. Did she? We can spoil it whenever it happened. Did she win Survivor? No, she didn't. It was years and years ago. And my sister actually bought me a cameo of her for her.

Okay. For my birthday or Christmas one year. And she said in the information, you are Leslie's favorite survivor. She believes you were robbed. And she goes, I was robbed. I'm like, yes. That's an excellent cameo. I'm tempted to ask how much that cameo was, as I'm always curious, what tier she falls into.

I think she was mid-tier. My favorite was when I bought my sister, Dule Hill. And he, because she's a huge fan of everything that's particularly Syke. And he called her Silly Pants Jackson through the whole thing. And she cracked just, and it was really long. And because she's an actor and herself. And it was about like believing herself, whatever. It was the funniest thing because he stayed in that, like, Duley Hill slash Gus from Syke character.

Yes. She once got me Melissa Manchester. And she's saying don't cry out loud to me And I burst into tears and Wow You're just keeping cameo afloat You know we try We try, man

Did you say she's married to Eddie George The football player? This is a very eventful lot Yeah, Taj is married to Eddie George Well, that's nice. You know, fantasy football superstar Eddie George The irritating thing was that

Jeff Probst, who's like a guy's guy kept talking about George. And it's like, but his wife was in a girl group that sold gazillion. Shut up. And some people knew her. Some people didn't. But it's like, he's drawn to the guy. So that's when they would bring his loved ones on and like the MO survivor freak.

And so Eddie George came on and it's like, oh, my God, it's Eddie George. And like, your wife is kickass. And she's right there. So Jeff Probes is not a karaoke guy or a cameo guy, I imagine. He just doesn't get it. I will say my favorite episode of any game show last year, my son and I watch The Price is Right because it's fun. Sure.

And so there was a Price is Right at night that was Survivor-themed. And so if you didn't win the spinning of the wheel, Jeff Probes would come with a torch and snuff your torch. Oh, that's tough. And say the wheel has spoken. Insult to injury. It was the most beautiful thing. But these are all Survivor freaks.

the audience, they were like, oh my God, I got a torch and Jeff Prope. I was like, yeah. If I ever get married again, Rob, I'm going to have Jeff Prope do something. I don't know how that worked. Maybe when I die at my funeral, if Jeff Proops outlives me, he will like snuff my tors and say God is spoken. I don't know. How cool was that? Wow. That would be a huge honor for you and very moving for your family, I imagine. I should have done weak. Absolutely. I associate. that with like high school dances right like that's a that's a big homecoming dance jam absolutely i recall i love that song i love weak and i love like i said they just they felt like us there was something about them and tlc i was a little older when destiny's child came out so i didn't

quite relate to them in the way that i related to them but they were a girl group they were like all the other girl groups I was very into the little thing I was very into like anytime a woman whether she wrote the song or not saying something from her heart that was about vulnerability

and maybe like being stupid in relationships or whatever I just loved it and they just my father used to call them SWH which was sister with hit sisters with hib was what we called weave it's like hair I bought

my father was terrible but he was funny It's a little rude, but yeah, that's a dad joke, I guess. It's a dad joke because he was so excited. He knew who they were. He's like, I can make a joke about 90s. That's right. It's so great.

Trying to look cool. Yeah. Like, great daddy. But they just, the videos in the 90s didn't make any sense. Like, they're at a boxing match for some reason. Yeah, it's not really a narrative thread. Yeah. No, it's a love song about vulnerability.

Like, here we are at the boxing match. match. It's like, I don't know why we're here, but it made sense because nothing in the 90s made sense. That's right. Directed by Jeff Probst. Little known facts. So that's, he didn't even recognize her on Survivor. And he, I think he knew she was. It's just kind of like, I think Jeff Proops kind of went with a thing where he was like, this is what I know. And I know who the football guy is. So, and that was in the day where they would cast celebrities, like Lisa Walshill or her. or Jimmy Johnson, and it was always like, who knows who she is, Lisa Welchel from Facts of Life.

Everybody, 40, was freaking out, and everyone was 20, like, who's this mom? Yeah. She seems so nice. And, like, all the sports fans are like, oh, my, Jimmy Johnson, one of the most recognizable humans in the world at that time, gets off the boat. And they're like, oh, my God. Everyone's like, oh, I'll know what it is. So, like, Taj is a smaller thing, but I think some people knew who she was. I immediately, she got off the butt.

I was like, yeah. So that's a song you should have done. I'm glad we get to talk about it now. I'm not yelling at you. I am excited. No, you're not. I was hoping that would be metaphorical or spiritual. So I thank you for not yelling at me.

Thank you for being on this show 500,000 times. 500,000 times. I told you like my cousin by Maritjo, I never see texted me and said, you're in this book. I was like, what? And he's like, this book I'm reading. And I have the book and didn't read the book. forward. Don't read the forward.

And I was like, what's happening? He's like, no, seriously. So it just, it's been great. You've been so great to me and indulging my silliness and stuff. Oh, we've loved it. I should have done weak. You're absolutely right. I appreciate it.

And any time, whatever your next thing is, I'm so excited to be silly for a half an hour or whatever. You'll be back. Trust me. Thank you so much, Leslie. great to talk you. Thank you, darling. Our next guest, oh my God, it's Isaac Lee. It's Isaac Lee. Former producer, original producer of this show, world-renowned audio legend. He's an artist. He's a producer. He's a dog lover. He abandoned us. It's fine. It's Isaac Lee. That's a bit dramatic. It's, well, this is a dramatic show. It's good to see you, Isaac. It's good to see you, too, Rob.

How have you been? I've been very, very. I've been very. well. What have you been doing with yourself? I've been doing the same thing I've always been doing, which is make audio. I see. But it's you, we miss you, Isaac. We, we love Kerm, but we do, we do miss having you around to cast you guys to version on my choices. This show has tripled in length. Poor Kerm. Poor Kerm, indeed. Poor firm. Yeah, Kerm. Kerm really got the short end of the stick. Shout out to Kerm, you've been doing a very good job. He has been. You got out at the right time, Isaac, I have to say, I do resent the fact that you abandon us, but it was, I understand that

decision. I like to use the word left. I left you guys. I didn't abandon you guys, you know. Okay, sure. All right. That is a little, that's, that's over traumatic. That's true. But it's, thank you for being here, Isaac. What song should we have done? I know the answer. to this. This is a really good question because I know what band you should have done. I don't know which song from this band you should have done and this is

something you and I should talk about but Jodacy Yeah, I knew it. The bad boys of R&B I mean come on like why why have you skipped over such a seminal group, such a influential act

in your... How many songs have you done? How many songs have you done? like 300. It's not that many. Yeah. It's not that many. Good God. The original aim of this podcast was supposed to do 60 songs.

That is what the title implies. Yes. That was the original plan when you were around. But then you left and we just, we changed everything else up. And then I think I've been avoiding Jodice to get back at you really. Now that I think about this subconsciously, I was really. retaliating from you leaving us, you know? And so, yeah. Resentant. Should have done Jodice, Isaac. Yeah. Anger. It's, this is an oversight on my part.

Okay. Revenge. This was my, this was my vengeance on you. We did, you and I talked about Jodice a little bit, I believe, in the Boys to Men episode. They were sort of a secondary concern. And so they were mentioned briefly earlier, but they probably did deserve their own spotlight. Yeah, they, I mean, for me, they were the primary concern as far as the 90s R&B goes. Sure, sure. I was listening back to that episode and I was like, oh my God, I'm talking about Jodacy a lot on this Boys to Men episode. You really were.

I really was. Because they, for me, you know, as a kid, when you, when you are introduced to 90s music and 90s R&B, boys to men are a little too clean cut. Like nobody likes the clean cut. They are. When you're a teenager, when you're a teenager, when you're a kid. when you're rebellious. You don't want to

so you don't want to be modeling yourself after the guys who are wearing all white suits. You want to be modeling yourself after the guys who are wearing all black leather. You know, like, I mean, barely wearing is I think a generous term. I think it was...

In the process of removing. Yeah. Yeah. I think the clothing were, it was on their bodies, but it wasn't necessarily meant to stay there. But Jodicy, the bad boys of R&B, hailing from Charlotte, North Carolina. I mean, they were, as far as I understand it, obviously I was born in the 90s, I didn't really live through it, but as far as I understand it, incredibly influential

in this kind of lineage of New Jack Swing a little bit, like kind of building on what came before. You know, one of the most famous songs they ever sung were, was Lately by Stevie Wonder, a song they covered to great applause. The unplugged version was, I mean, incredible. I mean, like, that version is, I think that's actually the first song I ever heard from them because I used to listen to Stevie when I was like, younger, younger. And then, like, oh, like, who else sang this song ended up at lately? And Casey's vocals in that song and also just, like, throughout their discography,

that's something that is, you know, like, with no, with all of us, respect to every other R&B artist during that time, but he has this animalistic kind of like growl about him, you know? And that's what really drew me. Yeah, he's dangerous. He's a bad boy. That's what's attractive about this band and about their music. What song would you say represents them in your expert mind? Robert Rob Harvilla, professional music writer. I feel Like, Forever My Lady or Fienin is the right answer? Do you have, what do you think? Pick one of those.

I would say Fienin. I would say Fienin as far as my personal favorite goes. Because Fienin also, not only does his show off Casey and Jojo's vocals, but really, Devante Swings incredible production, because that talk box. Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But like some You know like the talk boxy

Kind of thing where And that I think that's like indicative of of Jodacy's unique charm Because it's a group comprised of two vocalists And two producers Right so the production value aspect of Jodacy's music is very large

It has this outsized influence On the kind of signature DNA of Jodicee. Yeah, so Fienin. Did anyone ever capably carry on Jodice's legacy

to your mind in the 2000s beyond? Is this where R&B peaks for you or did somebody sort of carry this into the future? Oh, I mean R&B has definitely carried on into the future. I mean, Usher quite recently performed a Super Bowl. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean,

the kind of, obviously Usher is he's 45 years old, I believe he's not you know he's not a spring chicken necessarily he's immortal yeah 45 is young Isaac just sure right but um there are rmbee artists who are singing presumably about um let's just say romance uh sure you know um say whatever you want i sure and and yeah like there there is a lineage i mean you can i can think of like neo or um i mean miguel more recently, like these kinds of like more solo artists than bands or groups who have continued on this lineage.

But obviously it's not like Jodacy came out of nowhere. Jodicy comes from a tradition of that as well of this more expressive R&B except for they just kind of built on it quite a bit. And you know what was interesting. It was a tangent, but I was thinking about how this group is made up of two. sets of brothers, two pairs of brothers. Right? Jojo and Casey are brothers and then

Mr. Dolvin and Duvante Swing are brothers. And they're singing about sex with each other. And it's like, it's, for me, that is a bizarre thing. Like, you know, Casey and Joe is very, very famous song all my life.

Right? Yes. Close to me, you're like my brother. Close to me like my mother. Close to me. You're like my sister. Like that's, I mean, I... It's dangerous. I don't know what kind of compartmentalization is going on in their minds. Yeah, yeah. I've always found that to be a little bit strange.

It's pretty strange, but it works. But it adds to the attention. Yeah. They sing. I mean, I've heard it at every single wedding I've ever been to, you know? Absolutely. It's obviously working. It's funny you say, I sure,

at the Super Bowl, like Mary Jay was at the Super Bowl a couple years back. Like it's, we need Joe to see. We need the same sort of career, you know, longevity or resurgence. We need Joe to see at the Super Bowl is what I'm saying. Yeah. That's, that will heal America. You thought Janet Jackson, you know, was, was incendiary. We need to get Jodicy out there. Yeah, I'm sure they still look good. I haven't checked their Instagrams or anything. I'm sure that they do as well. I'm sure at least Devante looks amazing. Yeah. I mean, that man. That man. That's that man looked, ooh, I wanted to look like him when I was younger, you know, and then I realized I'm not black, which is a rude awakening, honestly. They shouldn't tell people, they shouldn't tell

kids. There's a very rude awakening, but you do, you sing, you know, the voice is very close. I just wanted you to come on here and to trick you into singing as much as possible. That was really my only goal. I sang a little bit, yeah. I guess, I guess, you did. We got, we got enough of it. But you used to, when you brought the piano on a couple times, like, that was extra rad, right? Like, when you were showing chord progressions and stuff. That was fun. That was a good time. That's when this show peaked, I think, right there in like episode seven out of 300. I think that was the Mariah episode when I was. It was. Yeah. That's right. That's right. I was just doing some really intricate music theory work that two people listening would understand because I just thought somehow that would add production value.

And it did, though. You educated. a generation of podcast listeners. Sure. I hope it, yeah, people know about the, I think I was talking about the minor, the minor four. Yeah. Yeah. So if you get that reference, then you've, congratulations, you know more than. Congratulations on wasting your life on this show.

Yes. Yeah. If you stuck around for this long, like that's what, 290 episodes ago? It's a lot. It's a lot of episodes. Yeah, well done. Congratulations to you. It's quite an accomplishment.

We should have done Jodacy. You sure should have. We sure should have. We fucked up. I did do it despite you, and I apologize to Jodice and also to you for that. That was wrong of me. I think Jodicee would say, oh yeah. I think that's what they would say.

That is precisely what they would say, and it would be the truth. It's so wonderful to see you again, Isaac. It's great to see you. We interrupt this program to present you a message from producer Jonathan Kerma, known to some of you as Kerm. The following is just jokes, and producer Kerm and host Rob have absolutely no beef at all. Let's make that clear for the folks listening at home. Don't take this shit too serious and make it a whole thing. I like this job.

You feel me? Thanks. My name is Rob Arvilla. This is the 2,376 episode of 60 songs that explain the 90s. And this week we are discussing why Rob needs to go fuck himself. And I've been waiting, baby. Two years for this moment. Producer come here.

And I've been told it's yell at Rob Day. I don't even got a song for y'all. I just got a lot to get off my chest. Knock doc. Who's there? It's the fucking FBI, Rob. Freeze. You're under arrest for being a pain in the ass.

Put your hands up. They're here to set me free from the Ringer 60 song sweatshops. You just turn on the mic and tell some fart jokes and stories from before you were an old fuck, and I gotta somehow turn that audio into a whole ass podcast, feel with music and shit? Come on, man, it's not fair. You want to know how many music clips you asked for

in just the two years of me being on the show? Over 3,000, Rob, you sick fuck. That's a lot of clips, though. What happened to the good old days when these episodes were like 35 minutes long? These longer episodes feel like a personal attack on me. That's all I'm saying. Is it because I'm black?

Hashtad, cancel Rob Bar Villa. And to all you listeners being like, yeah, I love when Rob spends 45 minutes before he talks about the song. Woohoo! No, you're enablers. Fuck you. You are equally complicit in the producer abuse of this show. Fuck you, too. And another thing.

Wait, what's that, Justin? We might be doing another show with Rob that I'll be producing. I feel like you should have told me that before I went on this rant because, like, now shit's going to be kind of awkward. Love you, Rob. Bye. guest is a man who is edited, had to read. I think it is literally a million words of my writing, which is just a terrible, terrible thing. He has been here since day one. He is my beloved producer, editor. He is the host of the wedding scammer, a podcast more successful than this one. It's

just in sales. Rob, first of all, I was going to say, you know, I'm the producer of the show. And, you know, is this, is, I'm going, I'm going last on this, right? Like, we're just, we're just wrapping this up, me and you, because we've been here for four years. So I'm thinking, I started thinking of it just like 20 minutes ago, like the Grammys in Memorial. And what happens if they, if they do the Grammys in Memorial and the Hammer is just some fucking executive. Just some guy who worked for Island records in the agees. Yeah, yeah, and that's kind of what I'm a little worried about here. But, um, you were worried that you are that person.

I am that person. But yes, literally one million words. It's a lot of words, dude. That's a lot of words to write. It's a lot of words to read. It's a lot of words to receive, like, write the night before we record and being like, yeah. There are deadline issues.

Like, 300,000 of the words are adverbs, right? You know, like, just receiving 100,000 adverbs in one document at 1230 in the morning Pacific is, yeah, that's tough. That's cruel and unusual. Rob, how are you feeling after a million words? How are you feeling after? First of all, first of all, I want to say, people, people are kind of listening to these out of order. I just sat here and listened to Kerm, give his, yeah, and you actually look like what I imagine Jay-Z looked like the first time after he heard, ether.

You look dignified. You mean dignified. You look like you're ready to go do some tie-bubes. It was tough, but it was necessary. It's stuff I had to hear. Even the part about me being an old fuck, you know, is, you know, the truth hurts, but I got to wrap my head around it. Wow. Wow to that. I'm sorry that you have to follow Kerm, first of all.

It's fine. We're all just kind of following Kerm in a sense. That's true. How am I feeling? I, you know, I'm tired. I'd like to lie down, you know, for several months. But I am, I am having a lot of anxiety about leaving the shit. because I love doing this show, and I'm going to miss it.

The nice thing is a show will always exist, and people will continue to discover it through years. It is evergreen content, as we have argued many times, yes. We love that here at the ringer. We love evergreen content. That's right. Because there's only so many times James Hardin can get traded, and we can pump out podcasts on that. I don't necessarily have a song, but I want to talk through some songs. And the first thing I want to let the listeners in on is, I think,

I think I always had this unofficial Mendoza line, and when we approached it, that was when it was time to end the show. And it is a song by Sagat, Sagitt, I'm not actually sure how to pronounce it. And it's called Funk That. It's called Funk That. And that was kind of like the internal, like, anytime we go close to that line. Kerm, play like the legally fair use justifiable amount of the song. Probably, I'd say, under eight seconds.

Come on, man. Funk Dad, I spent so many years thinking about what the Funk Dad episode of the show would have been because, of course, when we were like, we can't do an episode about this. Immediately I started planning that episode in my head. But I think this has been, I would have pronounced his name correctly if we'd have done the episode, first of all. Obviously, I would have. But I, you know, I'm glad that we never got quite to that point. But I do feel bad that we didn't get around to doing Funk Dad, because I do think that would have been

a lot of fun to mispronounce. It would have been, and I might, I pronounce it both ways that way I have cover. But sure. The best part is there's actually a Beavis and Butthead video. Ah, see, this is that's, a Beavis and Butthead tie-in is all I really need, you know, to go on. I think we've established that. Which, Kerm, I would love like, just for one last time, a little bit of Beavis and Butthead right here. Beavis and Butthead doing Funk That.

Funk That. Whoa. Did you hear that? He said, fuck that. The number of times that you have sent me geriatric beavis and butthead memes is approaching, you know, workplace abuse. It's like an HR level of violation that I feel. Look, after hearing what Kerm did, the HR stuff just kind of all goes around. It's like one of those like memes like I wake up.

I make my producer edit 10,000 words on deadline. I make my other producer put together an hour and a half episode in one day. That's right. She leaves. I wake up, you know, like one of those means. It's a well-oiled machine this podcast, yes. Rob, we had like a, okay, to pull the curtain back like one more time,

I think we had like a list of maybe like 10 more songs we were considering for a, like if we wanted to just extend this just a little bit. Right. Yes, we decided 30 would have been too much. many, but here are 10 that we conceivably could have done. And they were like, no, never mind. And we covered a few of them in this, in this episode, right? In this, in this episode where people yell at you, like the tragically hip, for example. And there were, yeah. And there was some that it's like, well, this would have made sense if we were being like, you know, we didn't need to hit

this, but if we were being super like strategic, which we maybe should be for both of our benefits, like, kids listen to my bloody Valentine these days. That would have been great. That probably would have been wise with the TikTok revival. You know what? Maybe Duster will release a new album and we can do that at some point in the future with whatever iteration this show takes.

But there was, I do think one of the funniest things to me was, and I'll just call this out, one of the songs that was kind of on this list that I kept putting on this list was Presidents of the United States of America lump or peaches

or lump or peaches. Probably it would have been peaches, but yeah. You seem like a peaches guy over a lump guy. I thank you. I'm somehow insulted by that, but it's also accurate. Yeah. So I know this. We did 119 episodes for them and one for you, and the one for you was they might be giant. So you were definitely a peaches guy. There you go. That's how you know. Right. Yeah. But so Presidency United States of America was on this list. And, you know, that would have been a fantastic episode. A couple months ago, we're talking to our boss, Sean fantasy. And he's like, I don't want to get to the point where we're doing presidents of the

United States of America. And I was just like, I just go into the list of notepad that I'm keeping and I just cross it off. And I'm like, you know what? Good, good point, Sean. Good point. This is the editorial process, the rigorous process that this show goes through. What would have been, so with the acknowledgement that we still have a few more songs to do, and we're kind of spoiling some of the stuff, it won't be. What's the song you would have done? that we didn't do. I always go back to the band Morphine. If I was going to do another one that was just for me,

it would have been morphine. And I don't even know what the song would have been because there's not really a morphine song, even big enough, you know, like cure for pain or something. Weird Al, I certainly considered. Like, Weird Al was sort of the ghost haunting this entire enterprise. He just kept coming up unnecessarily, you know, and there was a time I was going to end with Weird Al,

you know, and I might still, for all I know, but probably not. But yeah, probably one of those. The Mighty Mighty Boss Tones episode would have been an extremely good time. And I don't really know how that one never happened either. Ricky Martin probably should have happened. You know, it's just that this is the problem. You know, I'm going to talk myself into actually doing 300 episodes if I don't stop there.

But there's, you know, many regrets, countless regrets. Some of them are song choice related. and there are other, you know, more granular regrets. Well, speaking of granular regrets, what's your favorite mispronunciation that you've made on the show? Wow. Let's see. What is my favorite mispronunciation? Kind of hard to beat Objin, man.

It's hard to beat Objin. Objin. You have the obvious thing necessary. I have three children running around this house at all times. Objin. It's easier to say. It is a lot of. more convenient.

But so for the context for anyone who didn't listen to the episode, one of the dudes from Rancid. The offspring. It was the offspring. Fucking hell. One of the dudes from the offspring. Kerm, don't edit that out. One of the dudes from the offspring went on to be an OBGYN.

And we're sitting here recording one day. And Rob says two or three times, Abgin Ob gin Obijin Obi Jin OB-5

gin You can't beat that One of the rare times When like Suddenly both cameras Turn back on On the Zoom call And suddenly everyone's looking at me

It's like oh no What did I do And your guys are like Rob What are you doing Rob? We're never talking about The Birds and the Bees

There's a few websites You should go check out Yeah, we're going to have to talk about the birds and the bees and how your HMO fits into all this. I enjoy mispronouncing English seaside towns. They don't even know how to pronounce them. That's true. That's true.

They don't know how to pronounce them, like, Bournemouth. It's like, no, it's born-mouth. Yeah, it's bullshit. Born-mouth. Is it Glaston? It's not Glastonbury. It's there's some more obvious way to pronounce Glaston-Berry that I always forget. You have a lot of good faith.

You have a lot of goodwill over there. You should let me take the, you should be using me as your human shield. Yeah, you should not. Coichella is wild. But to be fair, Coichella, you famously pronounce it the same way that Bugs Bunny does. Bugs Bunny does. I do have an intellectual basis for mispronouncing Coichella. So that's, I got that going for me.

I almost forgot my father's birthday this year, but yet I can keep in my mind that you pronounce Coachella the same way as Bugs Buccella. And I just think that after reading a million words of you, I just wonder. This is the problem with reading a million words of me. What actually important information I'm pushing out of my mind for this? I think your dad's birthday qualifies as a very serious concern. I realized it at like 7 p.m. So is that California Times?

Yeah, unfortunately I had to wake him up. I had to call back to him up. Wake up, dad. I remembered your birthday. birthday at 10.30. Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ. Okay. Rob, I think we should wrap this up from my perspective.

I just want to say as a surrogate for the fans in this moment, thank you for everything. This has been an insane ride for you, certainly. Definitely me. I hope the listeners. I really hope the listeners. I hope all your friends from suburban Ohio that you've shouted out over the years just childhood friends who either put you on to Nirvana

or you drove around listening to Tool with. Todd, yeah. Yeah. Todd, definitely Todd. Todd is deep in the 60 songs lore. Shout out, Todd. I think it's important to say that this feed is not going anywhere.

These episodes will exist forever and we will be back in some form of another. we will that's very important to say we will be back right after i take a nap and inundating you with words just for a little bit i'm looking forward to i i just have one final question i have one final question that i need the answer to okay did i let you cook you i can say unequivocally that you let me cook i will defend your honor on twitter at any time no one has ever let someone cook to the degree that you allowed me to cook. And I am eternally grateful to you for that.

Even when you shouldn't have, quite frankly, you did. And I appreciate that. And I want the listeners to know that I only cooked because you allowed me to. And you did. Compliments to the chef. That's right. Thank you.

Thank you, sir. Can't believe those are the final words I'm speaking on the ship. All right.