83 Weeks with Eric Bischoff - 83 Weeks #256: nWo Wolfpac

Episode Date: February 6, 2023

On this edition of 83 Weeks, Eric Bischoff and Conrad Thompson talk all about the nWo: Read & Black but before they get there they talk all about Lanny Poffo, Sami Zayn, The Bloodline, Wrestlemania, and DDP Special thanks to this week's sponsors! Athletic Greens- Athletic Greens is going to give you a FREE 1x year supply of immune-support Vitamin D AND 5 FREE travel packs with your first purchase. All you have to do is visit athleticgreens.com/83WEEKS. Embark- It’s the perfect time to shop for an Embark Dog DNA Test. Right now, Embark has a limited-time offer on their Breed and Health Kit and Purebred Kit for 83 Weeks listeners! Go to Embarkvet.com to get free shipping and save $40 with promo code 83WEEKS. Visit Embarkvet.com and use promo code 83WEEKS to save $40 today WoooooWings- Wooooo! Wings, a virtual restaurant concept from The Man himself, the Nature Boy Ric Flair. Enjoy the legendary flavors and world championship wings by ordering with your Uber Eats or Postmates app. Wooo Wings is now open in Nashville, San Antonio, Jacksonville, Florida as well as Huntsville and Tuscaloosa in Alabama, with many more locations coming soon. Try the only chicken wings worthy of carrying the name of the 16x World Heavyweight Champion. FOLLOW ALL OF OUR SOCIAL MEDIA at https://83weekslinks.com/ Stop throwing your money on rent! Get into a house with NO MONEY DOWN and roughly the same monthly payment at SaveWithConrad.com Get early, ad-free access to more than a dozen of your favorite wrestling podcasts, starting at just $9 over on AdFreeShows.com. That's less than 15 cents an episode each month! You can also listen to them directly through Apple Podcasts or your other regular podcast apps! AdFreeShows.com also has thousands of hours worth of bonus content including popular series like Title Chase, Eric Fires Back, Conversations with Conrad, Mike Chioda's Mailbag and many more! Plus, live, interactive virtual chats with your favorite podcasts hosts and wrestling legends. All that and much more! Sign up today at AdFreeShows.com! If your business targets 25-54 year old men, there's no better place to advertise than right here with us on 83 Weeks. You've heard us do ads for some of the same companies for years...why? Because it works! And with our super targeted audience, there's very little waste. Go to AdvertiseWithEric.com now and find out more about advertising with 83 Weeks. Get all of your 83 Weeks merchandise at https://boxofgimmicks.com/collections/83-weeks Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey, hey, it's Conrad Thompson, and you're listening to 83 weeks. Of course, we couldn't do it. But at the Hall of Famer, the founder of Nitro, the creator of the NWO, your friend in mine, Eric Bischoff. Eric, what's going on, man? How are you? I am just blessed. there's no other way to say it.

I like that attitude. Well, said, kind sir. What's going on with you this fine Saturday morning as we record in advance of Monday's 83 weeks drop? Well, we've got a beautiful day here in Yellowstone country. It's about, it's going to see about 45 degrees today.

Sunny, no wind. It's like a beautiful spring day. And it's been cold here, man. It's been down to zero below zero. So when you get a day like this, it's,

you know, no jack. it running around. I might even throw on a pair of shorts later. Mrs. B and I are going to drive up to Billings, Montana, as soon as I'm done with the show, because we got to drop a vehicle off up there to get some service and do a little, do a little shopping, find some things that we can't get here in Cody, but looking forward to it, man. I love a good road trip. I'll throw my dog in a truck, me and Nick you'll drive up there together. Mrs. B is going to follow us. So it's going to be a nice, nice short little road trip on a beautiful day. I'm looking forward to it. What type of shopping do you do

in Billings. I realize that you live in one of the most remote areas of the world, so I understand Billings is, is that the largest town near you within John? Yeah. Yeah. And look, I would, if I, if I want a hundred million dollars in a lottery tomorrow, I would still live where I live. This is my favorite place on the planet for me and Mrs. B and my dog, Nikki. But it does come with some challenges when it comes to accessibility to certain things. And, you know, we've got grocery stores and we've got all the stuff here. But when like there's a whole foods, there's an organic food store up in Billings where we can just get things that we would otherwise have to order. So whenever we go up there for any reason, we usually stop in and pick up some of the things that we can't find

as easily here in Cody. But yeah, we're going to shop for some organic food. Doesn't that sound exciting? it does i i'm actually being forced to do that today too as uh you probably know my routine better than most megan handles all that but tonight we are entertaining uh a couple of friends named cassio and big booty judy and so we're going to uh when we wrap up today we too are going to head over to a whole foods and maybe fresh market and pick up some things for tonight's gathering and fellowship but before we jump into our topic today which is going to be an awesome one we're talking about formation of the wolf pack uh you want to talk about the hottest angle there ever was it's the nw and we're going to talk about a derivative of that how about that

the derivative i like that i like the word derivative the red and black attack here we go but before we do we lost i feel like we're saying this a lot on the show lately and i hope that this is the last time we have to talk about something like this for a long time we lost a member of our wrestling community. A pretty well-liked guy. We had him at Starcast, the very first one in Chicago. Of course, he famously came to the ring that night with Black machismo, Jay Lethal. Sadly, Lanny Pafo no longer with us, just 68 years old. Of course, he's the brother of Randy Macho Man Savage. And there's a pretty legendary story about his involvement or lack thereof in WCW, and I know that he was under contract to WCW, but I don't know that you guys ever spent

much time together. Do you have any stories or recollection of spending any time or having any conversations with Mr. Poppo? You know, I did, Conrad, but not while we work together. You know, I won't go into the Randy, Lanny, how Lanny came aboard. We've covered that. But I didn't, you know, like a lot of guys, you know, the talent in particular, um, I, never really got to know a lot of them personally. And I didn't get to know Lanny while he worked for me at WCW. But I did run into Lanny a couple years ago. We were at a convention together.

I don't remember where it was. It doesn't matter. And we ended up on a van that was transporting a bunch of us from the hotel to the convention center where we were signing autographs and taking photos and things like that. And we started talking on that. bus, had a really interesting conversation with him. And then when the event was over, we got together again. And I think I talked to Randy for a couple hours at least, two hours at least.

One of the most interesting, intelligent, you could talk to Lanny about just about anything. He's very well read, which made him interesting. Because we could talk about aircraft design or any obscure topic that may have interested me in a moment, and Lanny would have knowledge. He was just a guy that could really have a great conversation about so many things. But the one thing I do want to say about Lanny is his love for and loyalty to not only Randy, but his mom and dad, I think really is what defined Lanny Pafo as a human being. And as a person in the wrestling business, he was such a loyal and loving guy.

And I mean, just the loyalty and respect for his mother and father and obviously Randy was very unique. And it really endeared me to Lanny. He became someone that I wished I would have gotten to know much better, much earlier. Very sad to seem to hear about him passing. I mean, it's only 68 and he was a healthy guy. I mean, he wasn't. he didn't you know he wasn't into the scene right he didn't do drugs he didn't he wasn't a drinker at least not what i saw haven't heard any stories of it and i don't listen to rumors and stories

anyway too much but he he just he was a healthy guy he was full of life and i think he just recently moved down to south america or ecuador where was it ecuador yeah ecuador had a beautiful uh woman in his life and he just seemed so happy that it shocked me and I talked to a couple of people that said that they were communicating with Lanny up until the night before he passed. Wow. No, no indication that there was anything wrong or he wasn't feeling well. In fact, he was planning on coming up, uh, Elliot Greenberg, I think, posted, uh, that he was coming up to New York and wanted to get together for dinner. And so I don't know, man, I don't know what happened. But it doesn't matter at this point, you know, rest of peace,

Lanny, you're a good human being. You were a great example. of what family should be and can be and we're going to miss you well said what family could be and should be i think uh if mr popfo was here he would be proud to hear that that was the way he's remembered today i um always got a kick out of his interviews he did a couple of interviews with our friend sean oliver with k fabe commentaries and he talked about how he doesn't use toilet paper and of course john oliver did a double take and Of course, we, you and I know where he's going. He uses washlets like you and I do.

And he talked about how that saved him money. And I just thought that was funny. And I think in recent years, he's done interviews where he talked about being on a fruits and nuts diet and he wanted to live forever. And unfortunately, he didn't make it. But man, what a legacy he leaves behind as a family man. I think those are some pretty legendary stories about Randy Savage going into the Hall of Fame and, you know, Savage really wanting the whole family.

to go in but lanny saying now randy's randy's good to go in by himself and even you know as the story goes when uh when hogan and savage had a falling out and and savage was was cutting those uh promos and songs about be a man hulk and all that allegedly according to what what we hear pafo said or lany said uh i'm not doing that he put me in some main event spots i wouldn't have been in i'm not going to disparage hulk hogan for that and just a class guy man and gone way way too soon so thoughts and prayers seems like a cliche thing to say but i don't know what else to say uh 68 is just way too young especially for a guy who was in what looked like by all means a great example of of how to live your life later in life and um i hope we all

take a moment to spend a little more time with our family and be a little sweeter and little nicer and a little more thoughtful with our family that's probably the best way to honor landy's memory this weekend hey i want to do a shout out to lindsay who's with us a lot of fans with us a lot of listeners with us from ad-free shows and they're on the show live so love to see lindsay joining us she's had some challenges and and i'm glad to see she's here because that indicates that she's starting to get her feet back under and glad to see that we we often say here on the program that when you sign up for ad free shows.com you get the shows early and ad free well it doesn't get any earlier than a live watch along so we've got a live studio

audience we greatly appreciate everybody turning out and speaking of turning out it feels like people have turned out in droves we recorded last weekend and of course that was a rumble weekend it looks like they set all kinds of records for that eric a record number of people watched and attended and an all-time record gross and they broke merch records. I was hearing they were selling out of Cody merch every single day. They had to keep restocking their super store. It feels like the WWE has a ton of momentum.

And then we saw their earnings call. And buddy, it's just cash, hand over fist. I know you guys have been breaking that down over on Strictly Business. What's your take on the momentum WWE has? And tell us a little bit about Strictly Business. Let's do a cheap plug is there as well. Yeah, it's a worthwhile plug.

because if anybody that's listening to this show hasn't checked out strictly business, I highly encourage you to do it. Tom DeShane, a lot of people have seen on ad-free shows. He's got a monthly show here on ad-free. Tom is, for those of you who may not have heard me talk about Tom, Tom DeShane is somebody that I met, really, through ad-free shows in the podcast several years ago. Tom lives on the East Coast. He's a Harvard graduate, studied Shakespeare and I think he majored in English,

but he was mostly interested in literature. He actually wrote a book about Shakespeare that has won awards in Shakespeare's plays and the characters that are in his plays, a really fascinating book. Tom loves story. In fact, when I first talked to Tom and got to know him, And, you know, obviously he's a very accomplished guy. Not only at Harvard graduates, studied literature, wrote a book about Shakespeare. He's a television producer.

He's a documentary producer. He's also a game designer. Tom created a game called A Quest for the Antiquet, which is one of the only games ever designed and created outside of a company called Upper Deck. And Tom, you know, created that game. now working on another one and a couple other big projects he's got a project that he's a television show that he's working on based on board game competition is a really fascinating cat but the reason that he went to Harvard the reason that tom was inspired to study literature and you know storytelling

is because tom grew up as a wrestling fan and the the stories in wrestling is what was the catalyst for Tom's interest in literature. And we sat down and broke down on Strictly Business. If you haven't listened to it, I encourage you to do it. But we sat down on Strictly Business and really broke down the elements of what has made this, what we'll call the bloodline storyline, which really started, you know, two and a half, almost three years ago. But really broke it down and talked to.

about why it's caught fire and why it's one of the things that is really, I think, turned around the momentum in WWE. There's certainly other things. Right. But right now, I can't think of a story in the last 10 years that has captured the audience's attention and has become as compelling as it has. I just can't think of one. And we talk about the fact that, you know, about once every six, eight, ten years,

there comes a story that people will talk about forever. And this is one of them. And I don't think there's been another story that can come close to this in terms of its logical progression. You know, it keeps building and building and building, compelling characters. The right amount of, as Tom would describe it, parapetia. Peripatia.

We need a shirt, Kaufman. Like the old got milk shirts, we need one that says got peripatia, question mark. And peripatia is Aristotle's version of a swerve. And we talk about how swerves work and sometimes why they don't work and how the right amount or the element of peripatia work so well as long as the other ingredients to a good story are there to support it.

Fascinating. If you love the bloodline storyline, I encourage you to please go check out strictly business because you'll understand better why you love that story. And I think it will help you as a fan watch other stories and begin to understand why they're working and most importantly, sometimes why they're not, because they don't have those elements of story that make it work and structure and discipline, because that's what it comes down to. You can't craft a good story without the elements that make a story a good story. And again, I'll talk about that all day long because it's a passion for me. And it's a learning

experience. I learn every day. I read. I talk to people like Tom as much as I can. And I think back to the things that I've done, some that were successful, some that sucked. And I kind of lay that over when I'm learning from Tom and learning from some of the books I'm reading about storytelling and things like that. So check it out. You'll you'll walk away knowing you know way more about professional wrestling and story and why things worked than you ever thought you could. Eric, I wanted to bring this up today because you and I have had a lot of great conversation over the years on this podcast about, you know, what if and all the great success that you had with the NWO storyline.

And I think most everybody listening to this would agree that's probably the number one storyline as far as importance in wrestling history. And we often talk about how it's kind of bittersweet to look back and realize we never got a proper end to that story right there should have been this great big grandios blow off and that was the end and instead it just sort of fizzled knowing what you know now looking back with the benefit of hindsight as you take a look at this bloodline angle do you have any advice to those and the powers that be about something you wish you could have done over again or done differently with the NWO as they're going to try to figure out what the future of this

line thing looks like, but at some point, they're going to have to wind it down the guy who, uh, I want to ask the most about how do you put a button on this thing is you. Yeah, I mean, wow, that that's, I mean, we could spend hours talking about that, but I think to, and that's to be redundant, but I wished I had the knowledge and the perspective of what it takes to make a great story then, as I do now, because admit, admittedly, you know, I had a pretty good idea of what I wanted the NWO storyline to be when Scott Hall came in and when Kevin, especially by the time Kevin Nash got in, the original NWO story had formed pretty clearly in my head, but, and I didn't think it was going to be as successful

as it was. Nobody did. Anybody that says they did is lying to themselves. I thought it was going to be pretty good. I thought we'd get a good three-month run out of it, even when it started, but I had no idea how big it was going to become. And what started out is a pretty well-conceived plan initially with the NWO, and I think it was executed extremely well. But some of that was just instinct and luck as opposed to knowledge and experience. But if I would have had the same perspective and knowledge and experience then as I do now, that would have been a much better story. And the truth is, you know, we talked about the NW. Tom and I talked about the NWL story and how it was structured and compared it to the bloodline storyline now and how it is structured

and executed. And the truth is, the bloodline story in terms of a storyline and the ingredients and the elements and the discipline and the structure and the nature of it is a far better story than the NWO, far better as a story. Now, will it have the same impact on the industry as the NWO did? Probably not. But that has a lot to do with timing. There's so many things that made the NWO work, including Hall Cogan Turning Heel, by the way.

There's so many things that were just a moment in time that helped propel that storyline at that time that you can't replicate that today you know so i had the advantage of timing and and and the desire of the audience to see something different so i capitalized on that but that that was as much good fortune as it was planning but man i i dig the bloodline So I love, look what, I mean, just before the show, right? I'm sitting on the porch with my dog and I'm scrolling through my social media. I posted a picture of Wayjay, wearing a cowboy hat, you know, and I'm looking in on there. And I'm looking at a lot of comments about Sammy Zane.

I think Sammy Zane has emerged. He's the, he's the secret star in all of this. No doubt. He added such a phenomenal element of intrigue in anticipation, my favorite thing, anticipation. He added such an element to that story that really elevated the story. And that's an example of what Tom and I were talking about in Strictly Business, where not only does the storyline evolve and progress, but the characters within the story are also evolving and progressing in an equally logical, progressive way that continues to create more and more

interest. I think that's one of the things. Look at the Uso's. And they've been bouncing around and pretty high profile for a long time. And everybody knew who they were. But man, you started to see, you know, Jay Uso is now, he's been so elevated by this story. Sammy Zane is, I think, one of the bigger stars to be elevated in a story and as long as I can remember. And what's so cool about it is Sammy's a little bit of a handful. When I first got to W, or WWE in 2019 and we were splitting the roster and Paul was trying to decide who he wanted and I was deciding who I wanted and of course Vince was in the middle kind of you know he had his hand in that as well because it was a raw Smackdown kind of issue when smackdown was about to

debut on Fox network which was a very big big deal at the time so there was a lot of thought that went into how do we split this roster because the nature of that deal with Fox meant that there was going to be no more crossover, right? So we had just literally split the roster knowing that we weren't going to be able to bounce back and forth and do some of the other things that have been done interbrand wise previously. And Sammy was one of those guys that I didn't know Sammy. So as we'd sit down and we're shuffling the deck and looking at the names and a roster

and all that and I probably shouldn't say this. Say it. Let me just say that Sammy, on those list of names, Sammy was in the category where Paul would say, no, you take him. Yeah, no, he should, yeah, you'll, you take him. I didn't know, you know, this is a name on a piece of paper when I first got that. I didn't know him. And then as I got to work with, you know, I worked with it very little.

I think I directed a couple of backstage scenes with him and things like that. And I got to know him as a performer and how he thought as a performer, which impressed me, by the way, a lot. But he was also one of those guys, how do I say this? You've heard me say this before. And I guess it's an analogy or a metaphor. You know, you can slow a fast race horse down. Yes. But you can't speed a slow horse up.

Right. Right. So I always love fast horses in real life as in with people. that I work with. I love people who are really smart, who are really passionate and think at a much different level than the average person creatively. And Sammy was that guy. So he was like, when you have a fast horse, a spirited horse that just wants to run, you know, and it's not happy unless it's just blowing the doors off, you know, running. They can be a handful to manage. They're not going to follow you around in the corral and nudge you and, you know, beg for an

apple and rub their face on you, no. They just want a freaking one and they're hard to manage. And Sammy was like that to some people, not to me. I dug it, but some people are a little put off by that. Sammy was one of those guys, man. You'd have to sit down and listen to him and the best part of listening to a cat like Sammy is the nuggets of gold that you find when you read a little bit between the lines and try to get a little bit inside his head. Fascinating cat. And I love the fact that Sammy was one of those.

I'm going to call him a utility player on the roster. He'd go up and down. He's always there. He was a great performer. Everybody knew he could cut a great promo, which is probably why he was able to succeed as long as he did as a utility player. By the way, there's nothing wrong with being a utility player

with 10 or 15 years of, you know, incredible income as a result. But Sammy was one of those guys it was, you know, nobody ever imagined was going to break out of that utility category until the storyline came along. And I think Sammy's one of the reasons that the storyline has been as intriguing as it has, especially over the last month or two. So I'm so, I can't say I'm proud of them because I have nothing to do with it.

But I'm very proud for him. And I think he's a great example for young talent who isn't necessarily getting a lot of attention on the roster. Nobody's writing anything special for them. They may get a match here. They may get a match there. In some cases, some of them may feel like they're in the witness protection program because you just don't ever hear their names anymore. But Sammy's also one of those guys who probably felt that way as a utility player on the roster.

He'd banned in WWE for a long time, but he kept at it. He kept getting better. He kept himself ready in shape, I mean, as a character, not physically, but I mean he kept himself ready to go at the drop of a hat and boom the door opens up he crashes through it and I think he's I don't know how they're going to use him going forward I don't know what he's going to be involved with but man there's a lot of steam behind him right now amongst the fans and I'm just so happy for him so listen I just want to circle back to something you said, because if I don't, I'll get, uh, I'll get roasted online.

Are you sort of insinuating there that when, when Paul was running raw and you were running smack down, Paul was trying to push him on your side? I don't want to, because that's why I was, I wanted to be careful how I said it. It wasn't like, Paul absolutely didn't want to work with them. It's just Paul had certain people that he felt really strongly about. And I think Sammy, because he's, Sammy's one of those guys, man, he's, he's going to follow where you're around and keep talking to you until you sit down and listen to him. Right.

You know, he's relentless that way, which again, he's the fast horse. That's what fast horses do in the wrestling business. They don't, you know, go sit in a corner and wait for somebody to call on him. You know, Sammy's one of those guys. I mean, he's, if you're there and he's got something to talk to you about, you're going to listen whether you want to or not. And I think that's probably one of the things that Paul went, you take him. You'll like him, Eric.

By the way, I don't... Hey guys, Tony Shavani. I need to call the timeout real quick. Wanted to tell your listeners what I've been telling me what happened when listeners for a while now about all the cool things happening over on ad-free shows.com. The road to WrestleMania has begun, and in this ad-free show's exclusive, Tony and J.R. sit down to call the action from some of WrestleMania's biggest matches, including the end of the Undertaker Street.

Part ending war, I thought that the Taker kicked out. I was wrong. And maybe that's because of my prejudice that I wanted to see Tegger Wain. That I would have liked a zine 22 and O as well. But this is a historic moment. It really is in not only in WrestleMania history, but in all the progress, if you think about it. What does everybody want? How about a sit-down exclusive with Al Snow, who discusses a wide range of topics, including

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and it's just an aspect that Jimmy's turned the volume up on apparently as the years went on a lot Ad-free show members recently sat shotgun alongside Kevin Nash for a live watchalong of his WWE championship match against Sean Michaels at In Your House 7. Catch the event now on demand. Oh, bullet.

A year of brutal matches. Was too much for the big man. Too much for the big man's shoulders as he reached those continuous. reached those shoulders into his pockets and came out empty from the amount of money that was paid

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trying to put words in your mouth and I don't want to betray any confidences, but sometimes, offline, you and I, in real life, by the way, think a lot of Diamond Dallas page. But we've also been honest about saying at times, Dallas can be a lot. And that's the right way to describe him, because it comes from a place of passion. He's very passionate. He really cares. And I think that's kind of the wrap on Sammy is that Sammy really cares.

And boy, the proof is in the pudding because that has paid in spades. And a really smart person, and I probably shouldn't say their name, but I really smart person who I befriended in wrestling who's in the WV system years ago. I'll never forget. I was at a show in Birmingham and I asked, hey man, what are you doing on the show tonight? And he goes, I'm here. I'm in a good mood. I'm in shape and I'm ready. And that's what this job requires. Because it's not up to the talent what's going to happen and not happen. Like they're going to

be handed a sheet of paper and say, all right, here's what you're doing. And it's up to you to be in the right mood mentally to receive that and be in the best shape physically to perform that. And it feels like when when finally Sammy's number was called. Boy, he delivered in spades. Did he not? He did. He did. And again, I'm excited for Sammy. Again, we're not close friends. I haven't spoken to him since I left, you know, right, 19. So I'm not here, you know, patting a friend on the back. That's not the case at all. But I think he should be, this is going to sound crazy in a way like I'm going over the top. But Sammy, I think should be a lesson

for a lot of frustrated people. Yes. Frustrated talent that allow themselves to, you know, reading the internet and listening to the dirt sheet universe and whatever. They allow themselves to get frustrated because their time isn't quite yet. For whatever reason, maybe not because they don't have the talent, but you're surrounded by a lot of talented people.

Whether you're an AEW or WWE, there's a lot of depth on those rosters of really, really, talented people and not everybody's going to get their shot when they want it. That's right. And the reason I'm so proud for Sammy is because I think he's the perfect example for people that are in that utility category to look at and go, that's how he did it. I'm going to do it. I'm going to keep myself in shape.

I'm going to keep thinking. I'm going to keep talking to people, even if they don't want to talk to me. You have to be polite about it. You can't be complete jackass. but just like Diamond Dale's page for God's sake you know one of the reasons and I love Diamond Dale's page he is salt to the earth in my opinion yes um but man when he lived down the street for me it's like I'm putting in 60 hour days and on the weekend when I finally you know on a Saturday late Saturday afternoon when I can finally hang up the phone

Eric, Eric, Eric, hey, Eric. Oh, bro, let's go for a ride. Let's go for a ride. You know, we jump in his car. He had a Mercedes convertible at the time, an older one, but it was cool, 450. And we're driving around and, you know, on a nice day in Atlanta, it's just like, and for that reason, one of the reasons I've never done DDT, DDP yoga is because the thought of listening to him in my ear, I can't do it.

I have a little bit of PTSD Diamond Dallas Page. Oh, okay. In a loving way. But I think, Conrad, that is a perfect example. Page was obnoxious to a lot of people. He was relentless. He didn't care if you weren't in the mood to hear his idea. He's going to give it to you.

Yeah. And over time, I learned to really respect it and appreciate it. Yes. but he's a perfect example and you know there's a lot of guys that were like oh my god you mean i'm going to work a program with dp because when when tp's in a program with you brother you might as well move into his house or he's going to move into yours right because he's going to work on that story and work on those matches and work on the promos and in detail like he's he's the opposite of me you know i tend to like to improv i rely on my instincts a little bit and

DDP was a planner. That's why he and Randy Savage worked so well together because Randy was like that. Randy was a little bit unique in terms of an older school guy. Randy could go in and call a match on the fly. He could do that. He was great at that. But Randy preferred because of the way his mind worked creatively,

he wanted to break down every moment in that match. So when we paired up DDP and Randy Savage, Those two were like, man, they were like separated at birth. They'd just spent weeks laying out their stuff. And it showed. Now, you put DDP in there with somebody who didn't like to work. Can you imagine DDP and Rick Flair work in a program? No.

No. DDP and Hulk Hogan work in a program? Probably not. Hulk loved DDP and respected the hell out of them. But Hulk wasn't the kind of guy that's going to sit down and spend three hours laying out a 15 minute match right ain't doing it and certainly not going to write it down for you but randy was that guy and they worked so well together it was magic because of it yeah so listen i just i know sometimes uh there becomes a narrative on a lot of these podcasts where

where people who were big stars of yesteryear come on and and criticize the attention to detail and planning everything out and spending all of this time and blah blah and i understand But I also know that that passion for putting all that extra time and all that extra preparation into it comes from not wanting to have a good match, not even wanting to have a great match, but wanting to have the best match. And that pursuit of perfection, I think, is what has made. And I mean, I was asked recently who my wrestler of the year was last year. And I picked Sammy Zane. I mean, Sammy Zane's attention to detail made that WrestleMania match. And that assignment, a lot of guys probably would have been less than thrilled to have.

Wait, I'm getting my big WrestleMania moment in a jackass match. And that match was fun. And then this bloodline thing, man, even Rick Flair on his podcast said, I hated it. He didn't belong. It was stupid. I wanted him off my TV. And a month later, I realized I was wrong. It was the best thing going.

He has won over a lot of folks. And a lot of folks were really pulling for him to win the rumble that he wasn't even In, of course, we know Cody Rhodes won and punched his ticket. He's going to be squaring off with Roman. It looks as if we're going to get Sammy Zane and Roman Raines in the main event of the Montreal pay-per-view. Sammy's hometown. You want to talk about some great booking.

What an ovation he's going to get there. But it was in the observer, and don't get on a diatribe about that just yet. I want to ask your opinion. Dave wrote in plain English, neither Vince nor Hunter. saw Sammy as a main event WrestleMania guy and I think maybe the fans disagree and this feels a lot like

Daniel Bryan nine years ago as we marched towards WrestleMania 30 in New Orleans. The company wanted Batista, the fans wanted the yes movement. It feels like the fans wanted Sammy here at WrestleMania. They're going to get him at elimination chamber

and let's remind everybody we started this program saying they sold out a Cody merch every day. What a great spot to be in where you have so much intrigue and interest in your main event. But do you see Sammy Zane now with the benefit of hindsight and everything that's happened as a WrestleMania main event and as a viable WWE world champion? Viable WWE world champion, yes, at some point. Um, not now. Okay. I say that because if Sammy continues to get the opportunities that he's received over the last three or four months,

whatever it's bad, leading up to what happened at Rumble, if he's featured, if he's protected to a degree, and by protected, I mean just not use this cannon fodder to get to something else with someone else. but if Sammy is offered the opportunity to continue to build a look sympathetic baby face as a resort he's a baby face coming out of rumble right it has to be um depending on what happens in elimination chamber that crowd that crowd that crowd of my i got to work with steve austin in a match at no way out i think it was with steve Austin, one of the most amazing experiences in my career as a performer. And I didn't do it. All I got was I got my ass kick for however long that thing took, maybe seven minutes, eight minutes.

There was no story in that match. There was no way, you know, first of all, me and he's Steve Austin. So you can pretty much expect what's going to happen just as a, you know, entering action, right? but Steve was so limited at that time because of the nerve damage in his neck. And, you know, I remember being backstage with Steve and I hope he's not offended or angry when I talk about this, but because I mean it with nothing but respect. But I was standing where, you know, maybe, I don't know, an hour before the match or something.

We're starting to get ready. And I'm looking at Steve. He was talking to somebody in his, one of his legs was just. you could tell he could barely put a lot of weight on it. So he was in kind of a no touch, no bump. He was in a no bump zone because of those injuries. So all I had to do was go out there and let him be Steve and stomp a mud hole in me, which he did.

But the crowd in Montreal, in my experience, limited as it may be as a performer in the ring, but even seeing, even watching, even producing in many markets, around the world, for that matter, I've never, ever experienced the kind of energy that I did in that match with Steve Austin, particularly in Montreal. And I think Sammy has that same opportunity here, depending on how that match ends

and what they do with Sammy. This is meaning he has to win, obviously. But depending on how that match is laid out and how they treat Sammy, I think he can come out of elimination chamber with Roman and continue his assent to that WWE champion status. I think if you did it now, as strong as Sammy is, and as much as the crowd is behind him now,

I think it would be a little premature. I think, especially in WWE, you know, they like to build slowly. I think within the next six months, Sammy's going to be right there. I can see Sammy and Cody somewhere down the road, if indeed Cody comes out of his. you know, as WWB champion. But not yet, but very soon. Because he, does he have the talent?

He has enough talent to share. He could siphon off half of his talent and give it to somebody else and still be there as a performer. But I think the crowd needs to view Sammy in that role for just a little bit longer in that upper third, upper 20% of the roster. And if they do it, I think over the next. six months, absolutely yes. I think if they did it right now, it'd be just a bit too soon. I'm curious, I can't believe this is real, but Wu Wings, your very own virtual restaurant concept is now open and fans can enjoy the legendary flavors and world championship

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hearing the name of the 16 time world heavyweight champion woo wings be sure to check out rickflarewings.com to become a partner. curious from your standpoint and we are going to talk about the wolf pack i know we've gone a long time here talking about current wwee stuff but i'm just fascinated by it and hey man this is the season right what do you think they're going to do with roman reins in my opinion uh i don't know i mean it feels like you got to go away for a bit maybe it's time to take some time off like coming off of this bloodline storyline if it does have some sort of do you think it concludes at russomani or does he hang through summer slam i mean it feels as if when the bloodline winds down

does he need to go away for a bit i'm asking as the guy who created the n w o with the benefit of hindsight like would you have had the the nw o fall hogan goes away for a bit and then he comes back in the red and yellow because when hogan when roman comes back if he does go away for a bit he's going to be a huge freaking baby face is you know it i agree i agree and i think to answer your first the first party question yeah i i see roman and he's been at the he's been the guy carrying the load not that everybody else isn't is as important but roman has been in that top spot getting the majority of the attention creatively for so long that I think it'll be, number one, I think it's time because absence always makes the heart grow fonder.

How can Roman get any hotter than he is right now after years of being positioned to where he is right now? I don't think he can get any hotter unless you tag in the absence makes a heart grow fonder factor. Right. Reemerges with a refreshed care, not a different character, but a refresh. character and perspective, I think that's how Roman gets hotter and becomes more valuable. Now, that's a creative perspective. I think on the, and I don't know Roman Raines, we probably have shared less than two dozen words, just, you know, not for any reason, other than I just never worked with him, you know,

when I was at WWE in 2019. That was, you know, that was Vince's baby, right? I didn't deal with him. but my impression based on things that I've heard, read, interviews that I've heard from him, he's very much of a family man. I think that this schedule, even though it's been winding down a little bit for him,

and he's not been used as much, you know, live events and things like that. I think it's time for Roman to, you know, recharge the batteries a little bit. I also think Roman is interested in possibly moving over into the film, business feature film industry and this is a good time for him i think he's got one or two contacts a couple people that he knows in holly he knows he knows some folks yeah so i i see he i see roman

transitioning into the next phase of his career where wrestling will still be very important to him much like it was the rock in the beginning of rock's transition much like it was with john cina during john cina's transition out of that top spot that he had been in for so long I see this as kind of that transition point for Roman. Well, it's going to be interesting to see what happens. I can't wait for Elimination Chamber. I can't wait for WrestleMania. I am a bigger WWE fan than I have been in a lot of years.

I think they're clicking on all cylinders right now. And you want to talk about clicking on all cylinders. You guys certainly were 25 years ago in WCW. That's what we're going to be talking about today. the formation of the wolf pack when you think back eric when did you start to think that a split of the nw o could be viable was it because you had maybe behind the scenes some political wrangling and maneuvering between kevin nash and holcogen and you thought well if they're kind of jockeying for the same spot here maybe we could let that play out on camera or is there something else that

gets you to there yeah let's let's contextualize that a little bit because when we talk about, you know, political maneuverings that, you know, fans especially immediately jump to heat, right? Oh, you know, we're getting along. Got to split them up because they didn't like each other. Arguing all that. It wasn't the case. I think the, I guess, frustration that did exist at that time,

and especially from Kevin, was that there was no progression. It wasn't going anywhere. Now, Kevin didn't articulate it that way, but that's what was happening. It's like, oh, we got this NWO, we got all these people at NWO, but there's nothing happening with the NWO

that feels any different than what we had been doing for quite a while at that point. And I think Kevin was smart enough and had the instinct enough to start recognizing it and you know i know kevin pretty well and i and i knew him pretty well back then kevin's not going to quietly just do what he's been told to do or asked to do kevin's going to speak up and you know kevin's presentation you know when kevin's

starting to get frustrated he doesn't say hey eric let's go out and have a nice dinner i got a couple ideas i want to share with you and let's just riff a little bit and that's not Kevin. Kevin comes at it a little differently, a little more aggressively. And by aggressive, I mean blunt, you know, not angry, but just blunt. And that bluntness that was a result of the frustration of, again, I'm going to go back to Tom DeShane, there's no logical progression of the story. It was in a stalemate creatively. That's what created the frustration and some of the vocal things that Kevin said that, you know, got out or that people were reacting to. But there was still a ton of respect between Kevin and Hulk. It wasn't a

personal thing. It was a frustration. Hey, we got this fast horse and you got it tied to a tree. Let's untie this horse. We've got to figure out a way to get the horse running again. And it was really Kevin, I think, it was Nash's idea. to split it up. Now, and have the red and white, not for political reasons, but to progress the story. And if you think about it, and I didn't think about it then, because I didn't have the same experience or knowledge or interest, really, in detailed storytelling. But what Kevin was sensing is the same thing. I think that we sense as viewers when we watch any form of, you know, I'm into, you know, I like to watch a lot of great stuff on, you know, on the streaming

platforms but those stories constantly advance and i'm going to go back to sons of anarchy because it's such a simple basic kind of example that i think most people that remember that show can can remember in the you know in the first couple seasons of that show you know that that that outlaw biker club that was at the i can't remember the name of it anymore but that that club with jacks the leader you know everything was tight you know that club was you know they were brothers they were family. But after a couple seasons, in order to keep that story going and keep it interesting and keep it progressing in a logical manner, you have to create some dissension within the race. And that's a storytelling device that you can probably find in a lot of stories that

feature an ensemble cast. And that's what Kevin was feeling. If we want to keep this thing progress and we've got to split it up we've got to create some dissension and what was up until that point of very i mean it was one for all all for one right nw for life brother that was the foundation upon which that story was built you know is that they were a tight new grip that a tight knit group that were that had a singular mission they wanted to take down wcw and control it until such time as egos and pride and jealousy all of those human instincts that are not good instincts started to kind of seep into the story which caused that split. And Kevin was right. It wasn't executed as well as it could have been.

Certainly if I was doing it today. And Kevin, too, you know, we were all smarter, you know, as a result of the experiences we've had. But that story could have been done so much better. We just scratched the surface and really did it out of a reaction. action as opposed to a pre-planned action. The name of the gang and Sons of Anarchy was Sons of Anarchy. You may be remembering the acronym they used that sort of abbreviated that Sam Crow. But still, they were the sons of anarchy. Let's talk a little bit about the way the group was split.

Before it was officially split, we would often see whenever Scott Hall would come out and Kevin Nash would come out and Sean Waltman would come out. Boy, all those guys got crazy cheers. We all remember Scott Hall coming on and doing the whole survey says and all that jazz. And

Hulk Hogan wasn't getting that response. You know, you were getting booze, you and Hulk Hogan. But Kevin Nash and Scott Hall, they're often getting cheers. So it does feel as if there's sort of a natural divide

and then I can't help but think to myself self as a businessman the hottest selling wrestling t-shirt at the time by a country mile was the NWO shirt but at this point everybody already has it and we've had different variations where we'll put a six on the a cue ball or a six ball a billiard ball on the back of of his and we'll try a few other shirts maybe we'll do a photo of Scott Hall and Kevin Nash. None of them sell as well as just the plain and simple black and white NWO shirt. Well, how do we get them to buy more shirts? Let us do the same thing, but make it another color. Is that as simple as that? Yep. It really was. And that wasn't a driver. You know, it wasn't like, look, we got to sell more T-shirts. How do we do that? Let's split the NWO,

one's red, one's white. It wasn't the driver, but it certainly became, a conversation that was at the top of the list once we made that creative decision was like oh yeah and guess what here's here's another reason why we think it's a good idea absolutely well we know that it's going to happen uh randy savage always seemed to be the one who was on the outs with the nw o during the early run of the nw o was it always designed that way i mean i know the whole hogan savage thing is as old as the day as long, as far as people know,

these guys have an on again, off again, on screen, and if you were paying attention, off screen relationship. Was that ever a consideration, you know, making Randy Savage,

maybe a leader of a rival NWO against Hulk Hogan's NWO, or was it more about youth versus older, maybe the new generation versus the golden era, or is it simply, hey, these guys are getting cheers and those guys are getting booze. It was, it was, no, it was a couple things.

Number one, Scott and Kevin were viewed in many respects as the, they were the catalyst for the NWO. They started it. Before Hulk Hogan turned heel in July of 96, we had had May, June, we had eight weeks of programming where Scott and Kevin. basically represented what the NWO was going to become. I think Kevin was looked at even more than Scott. Kevin was viewed as the leader of the NWO up until Hogan came, right?

Which, by the way, sets up a perfect split somewhere down the road because the audience looked at Kevin and Scott, but more Kevin as the guy until Paul Kogan came in. So now you've got two powerful characters that the audience looked at as really the leaders of the NWO. Hogan much more so because he was always out in front. He had the promo. I came out with him. He got a lot more.

He had Voodoo Child. You know, there was a lot of things that made Hulk Hogan, Hogan and the NWO, aside from just the fact that he was Halk Hogan and he turned heel, right? That was kind of a big deal. But there was a lot of support creatively under. underneath that to make it work beyond just a couple of weeks. But I think the audience still looked at Kevin, man. He was that guy. And look, Kevin is an aspirational care.

Who doesn't want to be six foot seven, two hundred and seventy five, three hundred pounds, jacked and, and able to stand up to any man in America? Yeah, everybody kind of wants to be that guy subconsciously or consciously. It just made sense. And Randy, because Randy came into the end. WO so much later than that initial launch of that brand that I don't think people would have looked at Randy quite the same way as they did Kevin or even a Scott. Let's, um, let's just address the elephant in the room. Did the thunder speed this process up of two NWOs?

I mean, we've talked about the challenges that thunder brought to you because Turner wants a second show, but they don't really want to pay for it. So it's up to you to figure out how to pay for it. And now you've got your contract scheduled a certain way for a certain number of dates. And you've got your budgets figured a certain way as far as production costs and trucks

and lighting crew members and all this stuff that entails. So you go out and you sign a whole bunch of new wrestlers. And that's where we would see guys like Chris Adams and Rick Martell and even some of the ECW guys like Mikey Whipreck. all had an opportunity. Red Heart. The only reason of Brett Hart came, the only reason I brought Red Heart in and paid him what I paid him was because we needed that fresh

identifiable, high equity character for Thunder, not for Nitro. Did splitting the NWO even cross your mind with regard to Thunder? Or is that a totally separate thing? At least, no, it's totally separate. It was really totally, it was really that the story had

gotten flat and wasn't progressing. And we need, needed to do something to keep it hot and splitting it and creating a rift between Hogan and Nash and the red and the white, we felt was the best way to do it. But that one didn't have anything to do with Thunder. We know the real thing gets kicked off with the NWO in July of 96 when Hogan turns and calls him the New World Organization brother. So by March of 98, we're almost at two years.

What do you think is, have you put any thought in? to, I realize that creative is subjective. Jeff Jarrett says that all the time on his podcast, My World, that drops on Tuesdays. He always says, Connie, creative is subjective. But in your mind, is there a rule of thumb for how long a story should go? I mean, you often talk about a three-act structure and blah, blah, blah. But as far as just pages on a calendar, you know,

we used to hear Vince McMahon or stories of Vince McMahon. He would sort of think about what next year, as WrestleMania was going to be or what he envisioned for it and then work backwards. So he was trying to do it on a year long basis. Now you're stretching this thing well beyond that. Is there in your mind a rule of thumb for how long a good story should go in wrestling? No, because not every story, and I don't disagree with Jeff, Jared, on this. Everything is subjective.

You know, I love asparagus. You may hate it. Whatever, you know, it has nothing to do with the asparagus. It's just your reaction to it. and storylines and creative is much the same way. I don't like, there's a lot of, you know, great, technically great shows on, on available in streaming, for example, that a lot of people love that I just, I can't spend five minutes watching.

So I think the better, the answer to your question is no. There's not a set period of time that I consider to be ideal. Now, to add a little, a layer or two, to that. I think, and again, this is based on what I know now from experience and, you know, from learning along the way, is if you've got an A story, and I'm going to talk about the bloodline again, that's your A story. That's the most important thing that's been happening in WWE programming for a long time. But there's B stories. There's C stories. There's D stories. Or there should be, at least.

I think your A story, if you're going to build a story that's going to feature the highest power talents you have that's going to get the majority of your TV time on a weekly basis and be featured on your pay-per-view schedule, so call them pay-per-views because that's what they are to be, but whatever, that's going to be featured in your premium live events or whatever, that story has to build over an extended period of time. What's an extended period of time? Bloodline's now going on almost three years. Now, it didn't start out as the bloodline.

They kind of crafted that story a little bit as they went. I think now there's probably a more detailed longer term plan. But I think your A story, a good A story should be at least three to three to six months, as long as, and this is, you know, some of my complaints about wrestling in general, creatively at least, is that's not done anymore. I can tell you from my experience, I don't care what Vince used to do. I used to hear that all the time when I was in WCW. Oh, Gene Oakland, man, he'd always say, rah, ram, bam, bam. Gene would hammer me all the time. Early on. I love it. And plans everything out a year in advance. It works backwards from

WrestleMania. And it gave me this impression that this guy had this. great mathematical type formula creative type formula that allowed him to hit the important beats of his story all along the way and of course I didn't look at it at the time as beats along the way but the impression I had is everything was well well planned out whereas in WCW we were lucky to be early on now talking about when I first shook over storylines would maybe be planned out to last a month and after that it was like ah we'll figure it out when we get there so I always wanted to do what I heard Vince McMahon doing. And I worked towards that. It's why you saw the Stinghoven storyline. It's why the NW.O storyline lasted as long as it did. I attempted to do it without

really the knowledge of how to do it. But I attempted. But when I was in WWE in 2019, you were lucky to have a plan that would last more than 48 hours. Forget about a year. plan changed every single day. So the perception that Vince McMahon planned everything. Now, maybe he did, you know, because things changed, right, early on before Vince had two prime time shows to produce and the multi, I don't even know how many paper views are premium live events. And oh, by the way, doing, you know, when the Saudi deal was put together,

from what I've heard, I wasn't there, was that the Saudis expected a wrestling Mania quality event. Well, that WrestleMania quality event had to be promoted on Ron Smackdown in order for it to feel like a premium live event or a WrestleMania-esque live event. That's a lot of, that's a lot of stories and a lot of content all of a sudden. Whereas back in 93, 93, 94, 95, up until basically, I feel. forced Vince McMahon in WWE to start producing more pay-per-views. Perhaps he did do it that way.

Perhaps there was that long-term planning. And I'm sure Bruce Pritchard can probably speak to that really, really authoritatively. But when I got there in 2019, dude, the creative process is like, what are we going to throw up against the wall today? Right. What is Vince going to be in the mood for this morning? I know what he was in the mood for Friday when we left, but it's Monday morning. Now what's he want to do?

We've all heard the stories. about tearing up scripts and starting from scratch two hours before TV starts to air. I can tell you that that happened. But I think now, perhaps, with Triple H, Paul Levick, kind of overseeing that creative process, remember, Paul Levick was on the, he was on the receiving end of a lot of that, like a lot of us were at that time. And I think probably if one of there's one big benefit of having someone like Paul in charge of creative or Bruce Pritchard is or anybody else that's been around for a long time that

worked under Vince in that creative process is they've seen how difficult it is to keep a story progressing logically when mood swings dictated creative strategy and that was the case with Viz I think what we're seeing now is a more deliberate disciplined keep using that word because it's so important when it comes to structuring a story we're seeing a more disciplined but that didn't exist when I was there in 2019 at all in fact it was the exact opposite Eric you talk a lot about the three-act structure storytelling and how important it is to wrestling what in your mind is was the outline for the NWO's quote unquote three acts I think in the beginning it was pretty easy because I again in a very beginning

Scott calls and says, hey, any room? Sure, come on board. Ooh, maybe. Kevin Nash, a couple weeks later, a week later, hey, Eric, any chance I can come back? Ooh, now I've got my story. It's an invasion angle. Simple. And that part of it was very well structured. Scott, what does Scott do?

He came down, you know who I am, but you don't know why I'm here. Ooh, mystery, check that box. Anticipation, check that box. story I meant story check the box anticipation check the box reality check the box you and I'll disagree with it but I've heard Kevin do live promos talking about why him and Scott came in in the ring and it was all because WCW didn't treat them the way they should have been treated paraphrasing it but the promo exists right yeah that was in the beginning of it so I think the beginning of the O had a pretty well defined three X structure

in the short term first Scott story creating anticipation who's the who's my big who's my big friend that's coming next week then it trans transitioned into the second act of who's the third man and then the third act ended with Hulk Hogan turning heel so it was a journey it wasn't that wrestling angle it wasn't like I'm out here doing an interview and Conrad's pissed off of me so he comes out in the middle of my interview he busts it hits me with a chair boom we've got a wrestling program that's an angle that's not a story that's an angle and then we have a series of matches and there's interference and there's disqualifications and that's 95% of what we're seeing in a lot of wrestling that's in prime time today i'm not going to bury anybody okay

it's not my deal i'm not going to swear on this show and i'm going to try not to bury anybody those are my two goals today well that's no fun No, well, it is, but if we can break down and talk about the stuff in a more constructive manner, maybe that's fun. We'll just give it a try. You know what? If it sucks, I'll just go back to like swearing like a drunken sailor and burying everybody in sight.

That's what it takes to entertain the audience. You know me. I'm a whore. I'll do it. You know what? I know why you're doing this. I know why you feel that way today because you woke up and you took your athletic greens. You had one scoop and a cup of water and that's all it took.

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and pick up the ultimate daily nutritional insurance eric ag1 a regular part of your routine then now forever right seven days a week 52 weeks a year i will not start a day without AG1. I believe in that product wholeheartedly. I've learned more and more and more about how important gut health is in order to keep healthy. And I refuse to start a day without it. So listen, Eric, let's talk about sort of the evolution of the NWO. We start to see some tensions after the Great American Bash in 97. Randy Savage is being at your throat after his loss to DDP. You're going to go through various people like the giant Ted DiBiase. You expand with the likes of Big Bubba Rogers and Buff Bagwell and all those folks. But I think maybe the first

hint that this could change is a character like Conan. When he joins in July of 1997, it feels as if the NWO has the potential to become something else. Because Conan, as we've said on the program here for a long time was cool. And when I think about the split of the NWO, I think everyone agrees that, well, the red and black and the wolf pack, they were positioned to be cool. Conan was the embodiment of cool. Is you know it? Still is. Yeah. Man, I love it. I, I love listening to keeping it real or keeping it 100, whatever the name of his show is. Keeping 100. Conan is. Yes. Yes. Conan, Dripped cool.

Yeah. Conan, when he, you, you could not even know that you, you may not have ever watched nitro or you may have never watched professional wrestling. But when Conan would walk into a room,

into a restaurant, wherever, you just knew the cat was real and he was cool. Absolutely. And so was Kevin. And so was Scott. Scott Hall. Yes.

so the cool side of the wolf pack we kind of have figured out now the other side well brian adams joins in february of 98 brutus the fucking barber beefcake joins as the disciple uh we even have a racing team where Kyle Petty is going to be driving for the NWO and some of this stuff feels maybe not as cool we're going to be covering super bra here in the next few weeks and we'll see one of the biggest ends of one of the biggest tag teams in history, the Steiner brothers, but did you think that we needed a few more folks involved here in order to pull this split off and Scott Steiner sort of checked the box for the Wolfpack or the black and white or was the Steiner split even

in consideration with this NWS split? No, it wasn't in advance, but I think it became an obvious opportunity once we started splitting it up. And to your point about how the wolf pack had that cool factor where black and white didn't. And I think one of the mistakes I made obviously wasn't intentional, but it's like, wow, we've got this machine that's printing money. Let's take advantage of it. Because at the end of the day, it's all about making money. Right. And I put making money with it above keeping the story and the characters evolving and progressing, which is why bring in Kyle Petty, you know, we started commercializing the black and white and commercializing the NWO to take advantage from a business perspective to take advantage of this hot property and this brand within a brand that became kind of a bigger in many respects than the WCW brand.

by far now how do we make money off of it in a larger scale and that took in addition to not having the conan and the scot hall conan and scott hall and scott hall and kevin nash and the cool factor that they brought to the table which is one of the other reasons at n w l black and white in its initial introduction got over because it was cool they got cheers you know it was a little it was a little sketchy at the beginning. No one didn't know how to react to it. But what we, when we split it, not only did we not have the cool factor now layer on top of that that I'm trying to exploit it with Kyle Petty and all the different things

that we did that subconsciously, I think and consciously in the minds of some just kind of took the edge off of it. Let's talk a little bit about, you know, after Hogan loses the title, Savage is going to cut promos that basically says, I no longer need the NWO. Hogan failed as a leader and he's going to get the title back from Sting. I mean, I think you could argue that Savage could have been the leader of a split NWO,

but was he just in your opinion not cool enough to do that? I mean, did he not fit the Scott Hall, Kevin Nash, Conan, Bob? Not in the same way. Yeah.

And I don't know. why? I can't put my finger on why. And maybe it's because there was so much equity in Randy in terms of the colorful crazy snap into a slimium that was so embedded into who Randy was for so long that in tandem with the fact that Randy wasn't quite as adept at actually evolving his character. What do I mean by that? You could put him in black and white. He's still going to do the same stuff.

Oh, yeah. And he's got the fringe on his black and white, right? Remember some of the T-shirts he used to where he still had a lot of that, oh yeah macho man randy savage as a part of his n w o character which i think in a way kept him from really making that 180 degree evolution into a real heel he still hung on to yeah to the point that he wouldn't have been able to be that guy hulk hogan made a dramatic character change. He went from being the red and yellow version of, oh, yeah, to being something that was completely the opposite, visually, character-wise, everything. Randy hung on

to the macho man quite a bit, even when he was in the NWO. And I think that mitigated his ability to really transform into being something other than what people remember. property and being that makes sense did you have conversations with randy about that i i asked because i know hogan didn't start that way those famous promos that they cut as a trio hogan haul and nash originally uh haul and nash were kind of looking at themselves because hogan was still doing hogan-esque promos and the producers said oh no i can make it work they're going to add some effects do some jump cuts do it in black white shooting at an angle like the old villains on batman and it came off phenomenally the idea is

they sort of worked around what hogan was doing and eventually of course we know hogan got with it and came out with the fingerless gloves and play an air guitar and did some different stuff uh do you think savage could have made that leap or does you have that conversation with him and he just wasn't willing to or wasn't able to never had the conversation you know and that i should have again knowing now what I didn't know then, yeah, absolutely, because I would have, just like I was able to describe to you, why Randy was never able to do that, because he hung on so much to some of those things

that reminded people of who he really was as the macho man. But I didn't, I didn't, partly because I probably didn't understand it. I didn't see it the same way I see it. Now, I can talk about that stuff now. because, you know, a little smarter, a lot more experience and have learned a lot since then. But we were learning as we went at that point, and I certainly didn't recognize what I just described to you then. But I want to go back to Hulk in the transition of his character, because you're absolutely right. It wasn't like overnight he became the NWO Hulk Hogan that everybody ultimately got with, like weeks and months later.

I think I've heard interviews or read them where Hulk, especially after Scott passed, Hulk will tell you that Scott Hall and, to a degree, Kevin Nash, taught him, taught Hulk how to be that NWO character. Because when we first put it together, you know, two days after the big leg drop, a bash of the beach, you're absolutely right. I remember it like it was five minutes ago. we're all sitting in a studio at the Disney MGM lot. We got to cut some promos. And I was in the room.

And I'm watching three guys who had individually been so used, especially Hulk. He'd been just doing it longer and been at the top longer. So used to being the only guy in that promo, Hulk Hogan standing there next to Mean Gene. And Hulk Hogan having carte blanche to go as long as he felt like he wanted to go to help get his character over. Hulk Hogan had 20 years of that experience under his belt at that time, right? It wasn't easy for Hulk to just go, okay, I'm a different cat now. When I get that microphone, I'm going to be a different character. It didn't come naturally.

But as I think I remember Hulk saying in an interview or reading in an interview, Hulk attributed much of Hulk's ability to become that NWO character. He attributed to Scott Hall primarily and Kevin Nash. he learned from them how to become the NWO Hulk Hogan beyond the leg drop and a heel turn. And that promo that you just described, and here's how it started out. It's going to be sketchy because it happened a couple of minutes ago. But we're backstage in this soundstage where we're cutting all of our promos at the time to be inserted in our various shows. I was like, okay, let's get Scott.

I mean, this was literally right after Bash of the Beat. Let's get them together, and we're going to do a promo with the three of them. Hulk you go first and Scott and Kevin. Okay, ready, three, two, one, go. And each of them were so used to having the floor to themselves that it was like it would be a 45-minute promo. Right. And it didn't fit, you know, they did, it was, it was anything but seamless.

It was just three individual promos, but three guys who are not used to being a trio. right and that's what i don't know i always give credit to craig leathers it might have been somebody that worked for craig that came up with the idea now let's do it this way let me let me edit just let me go edit this let's just do random stuff you guys just throw lines out i'll make it work in post that wasn't my idea that was somebody else's idea like i said i usually attributed to crag because it was his team that did it but they came back with that black and white you know grainy film, you know, verite kind of style.

And it was magic. But it was magic that was born on in necessity. Because the other way we were doing, it just wasn't going to work. But through the process of, you know, once Hulk saw that, we all saw it, well, holy crap, we never seen anything like this. This is cooler and more cutting edge than anything that had existed in professional wrestling. in the 30 years that preceded it, my opinion. It was really cutting good stuff that no one had seen before.

And right there, it's going to work. Would you do something that's so different than and done well? You know you have a winner. And I think it was that process of Hulk realizing what Scott actually brought to that style of promo and the cool factor. And Kevin, that Hulk went, okay, I got it up by game. here. You know, if I'm going to keep up with these two, I got to quit being red and yellow Holcogen and really become the NWO Hulk Hogan. And Hauke, or Terry Balea, Halkogan gives a lot of credit to both Scott and Kevin for them.

It's, uh, it's super fun to think about how all this evolved. But one of the big pieces that we haven't really touched on is Sean Waltman. You wrote in your book in late 97 or early 98, we'd come to a verbal agreement with Sean on a new contract. We'd agreed on terms and sent the written contract to his manager, Barry Bloom. We also started paying him under the terms of that agreement. A few months later, someone from my legal department told me Sean hadn't signed the contract and I called Barry and said, let's get this thing signed and get it out of the way. And I was hit with, well, we want to talk about the terms of the deal. That pissed me off to the point where I fired Sean immediately. To me, that was. just a sleazy way to conduct business, and I have been exposed to a lot of sleighs. So I know you're upset with Barry on this deal, but as a result, uh, when you let Sean go, I think you created some problems with Scott and Kevin in the process. Do you know it? I mean, you'd have to ask Kevin. I mean, did they confront me with it? Not really. Were they upset? Sure, they were upset. Absolutely. They were tight, man. They were

close close friends at the time were they happy about it oh there i did it but it was kind of under my breath so it doesn't count or no fart no they weren't no were they upset absolutely were they disappointed for sure probably angry at me for it but it wasn't like a big topic we're going to sit down and debate it i told them why i did it they didn't like it but there wasn't much anybody was going to do about it but it did it did anger them yeah disappointed pointed them, pissed them off. Yeah, whatever. But it, you know, it was a sleazy thing to do. It was, you know, that's the kind of thing, you know, I'm really funny about certain things. Like, I can forgive so many things or let so many things roll off my back, but there are certain

kind of like foundational things in terms of the way I do business and the way I expect people to do business with me. And when someone says, someone gives me their word, okay, I agree, let's let's move forward with this and then come back you know weeks or months later and go well can we i have a different opinion now let's revisit this it's like no sorry your name goes on a list it's not going to come off just not doing it and i i overreacted i certainly overreacted um i'm probably much the same way today you know somebody gives me their word you know Or if I give my word to somebody, I'm good, bad, or ugly, I'm going to live with my decision. It's my decision to give somebody a commitment.

Nobody forces me into anything. If I make a commitment to something, that's my choice. But once I do, I would never go back and try to renegotiate a deal, ever. My pride, my sense of what's right and wrong will not allow me to do it, nor will it allow me to be on the receiving end of it. And that's not necessarily a great thing. It just is what it is, but in Sean's case, done with them. I've not spoken a word to Barry Blue sense. Really?

All these years later, you haven't? Nope. Wow. Nope. This is not someone I want in my life. I would never trust him again. Once I get burned, and again, this is not a great characteristics to have, great characteristic to have.

Actually, it's a flaw in my personality, and I recognize it. I try to manage it now, but no, once you prove to me that I can't trust you, I'm never going to trust you again. I can still do business with you, but I'm always going to be aware that you'll, you'll screw me at the drop of a hat. So now, never spoke a word to him. By the end of March, Scott is removed from WCW television. He's having some struggles.

And allegedly, there's a big confrontation that Hulk and Kevin have about the direction of the NWO on Thunder. And, of course, we see some of this play out on camera, but some of this is happening behind the scenes as well. How tense were the real-life issues back to the end with Hulk and Kevin? I can only speak to what I experienced firsthand. Certainly, I heard a lot of things, and I'm sure there was tension backstage between them when I wasn't around.

I'm sure there was conversations, you know, Kevin had with other people or Scott had with other people or a Hulk had with other people that I wasn't privy to that reflected that frustration, but I can only speak to the one time that I remember. And I don't remember where it was. I think it was in a nitro or a thunder, I think it was in Casper, Wyoming, because we were on our way to Sturgis. And And things had escalated backstage between them. I'd heard about it based on what I heard. I kind of inserted myself into it to help try to manage it and figure it out

because I just didn't want it to screw up TV. I didn't want all that, whatever tension and heat was backstage, I didn't want it to end up on camera in any way. So I inserted myself into it. And I remember standing backstage at one point. There's Hulk standing there. Nash, pretty much, I don't want to say nose to nose, but damn close to it. Scott was right there, and I could tell it was getting serious.

And Hulk is not a fighter. Hulk wouldn't step out of, he wouldn't go out of his way to swat a fly. He is the least confrontational, violent person. It's just not his go-to. However, when he does get to a certain point, or back then it's very obvious and Hulk was at that point i saw them i saw the three of them standing backstage you could see from you know across the arena it was not a fun conversation so i inserted myself into it and there was a moment there was a moment when i thought okay

I'm going to be trying to break up a fight with three guys who could squash me. This is not good. It got that tense. Able to settle it down, take care of it for the moment. But there was, you know, Hulk, he's so easy, you know, I almost hate talking about him sometimes because the Hulk Hogan that I know, Terry Belaya that I know, is completely. completely different than the narrative than that people think about him.

But he got to that point where he was ready to go. He was ready to go. I thought, this can't happen under my watch. I cannot let this happen. Right. It was tense. I was,

I was, I was pretty nervous about it in that moment. Well, I think a lot of folks, uh, expect that when, um, these two NWs split and it's essentially,

Nash has a group. and Hogan has a group that Scott Hall is going to be with Kevin Nash but allegedly if you were reading the newsletters of the time there was a report that Hogan really wanted Scott on his side when he came back feeling like he needed someone else to make his side quote unquote cool do you remember Hogan being a big advocate for Scott being in the black and white well Scott Halk loved Scott Hall's work I mean he thought a lot of Scott hall and we did talk about it but it wasn't oh i need i need somebody cool i mean it's not like hulk didn't think he was cool by the way in that n w character he was cool as shit once he found

his groove he was he had it maybe not quite as natural as scott and kevin but he had the cool factor i don't think hulk looked at himself or looked at the black and white is not being cool enough. I think from what I remember, a lot of the conversation was in order to make this split feel real, let's split up Scott and Kevin. They were the anchor. They were the two original cast members. Let's split them up because that would have had a greater impact on the audience than just, you know, black and white, red and red and black. That's for story. I think his motivation was more for story and adding some depth to it than it was

I need some cool people over here, you know? Right. Well, let's talk a little. I will say, if anything, by the way, you know, finger poke of doom, you know, Sting should have beat Hogan in 97, that was the end of WCW. That was the beginning of the end,

which is all like juvenile, dirt sheet, nonsense, in my opinion. but and it's a reflection of people that don't really understand what was going on behind the scenes at Turner Broadcasting at the time. I'm not going to go up into that again. But in my opinion, the real death nail in the NWO was Brutus the barber beef care. Thank you.

If there is anything that's going to make you uncool. Yes. That's it. It's Brutus, the barber. beefcake. Yes. I mean, if you saw Brad Pitt, like Brad Pitt's kind of cool, right?

I mean, he is. Yeah. Or think of any other really cool contemporary movie star. Could you imagine if TMZ caught a shot of Brad Pitt having dinner with brutus beefcake? Pitt would never get another movie. Oh. It'd be it. Kill him.

Kill him off as a character. as an actor. And that's what that's what brutus the barber beefcake did to the NWO. I think that was worse than adding, you know, Michael Wall Street or any of the other people that we ended up adding. The minute you add Bruce the barber beefcake to anything, it's a joke. And we did. And I say that have to be entertaining and funny, but the other half of me is absolutely right when I say it. Of course you're being funny. Hey, so did Scott have an opinion about, you know, if I'm going to be back, I want to do stuff with Kevin or is that not even. I mean, he cares, right?

No. You know, Scott would share his opinion. And Scott was another fast horse, depending on, you know, where his head was at at the time. You know, very few people that I've ever worked with that were more passionate about an idea than Scott Hall when his head was right. Right. Want an example? Yes. Crow Sting.

I've talked about this before. I'll try not to repeat shit, but repeat stuff. But when Scott Hall laid out his vision for the Sting Crow character, I have never been, I have never gotten chill bumps listening to someone lay out an idea. I did that night. And part of that was, yeah, obviously it was a great idea. It was the passion. It was the, and when I say intensity, I mean, in a positive way, the intensity.

Scott was in his zone. It's like it was another human being that I never met before. When I heard Scott lay out his vision for that. And by the way, I wasn't the only one. Hulk was in that room. He reacted the same way. Sting was over, he was, you know, sitting a little bit outside the circle just listening. And you have to know Sting, Steve Borden.

Steve Borden, not the character Sting, but Steve Borden, the person, very analytical. Like, you could lay the best idea out in the world to Sting, and he'd listen, he'd absorb it, kind of maybe acknowledge it a little bit because the wheels were turning in his head. And his wheels turned in a slightly different way than somebody. people's. He was very analytical. He wanted to see that image and that character and great detail in his mind before he'd lean into it. When I laid out Sting being the third man before Hulk Hogan stepped into the picture, same thing, man. Steve Borden was ready to shed the Surfer Sting character and become something else.

So when I laid out the story where Sting was going to be the third man, same thing, man. I couldn't tell if he was digging it or not digging it. He did no sell it, just no sell, but the wheels were turning. And a couple days later, he was really excited about it. So Steve Bourd was not the kind of guy when you lay an idea out to him, go, oh, man, that's awesome. He wouldn't do that.

He'd think about it for a couple days. Right. And he'd come back and say, oh, man, that's awesome. however on that particular night because scott was in his zone and i think one of the best that i've ever worked with when he was in that zone creatively speaking sting was like jumping out of his skin i mean there was there was no thinking about it there was no analyzing he was in that that's what i remember about scott that's the scott that i really really miss a lot of other things about scott but man there was nobody better but sting when he heard

that idea he was all over it i don't even know how we got into that well something i know you're all over is embark i know that you love your dog nicky we've talked a lot about nicky here and uh they have a brand new pure bread kit and they have a breed plus health kit i know you've used them both and i know that uh you'd pretty much do anything for your dog i think most most of us would. Here's the reality, guys. Your dog knows everything about you, but shouldn't you know your dog better?

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Do you remember who deserves the credit for that name? I don't. I wish I did. Here's who wouldn't surprise me. At the top of that list of people that it wouldn't surprise me, Um, I'd say, I'd go with Scott first. Kevin right, not even behind him next to him, but that one would be too close to call.

And in the third position, I would say Conan had to be one of those three. What about the, uh, the colors, the red and black? Do you remember who would have come up with that or who would have been a big advocate for red? I do not. The music, any memories of how it came up with the music? Yeah, that would have definitely been Scott and Kevin. I mean, I don't know for sure, but I would bet heavily on that.

Because I mean, and then Conan, too, man, they were like the three amigos. They were almost one when it came to the vibe and the, just the feel and the presence of the wolf pack. They were so sympathetic that it was hard to, it was hard to distinguish one. from the other which is probably why I'm drawing a blank but of of the three of them I don't know man that's too close to call too close to call the first three members to walk out on that fateful night May 4th here in 1998 is Randy Savage Kevin Nash and Conan why those three to start strongest strongest strongest characters yeah I mean who else

else. I mean, again, especially with Scott and Kevin, they represented. They were the catalyst. They were the guys that planted the seed for the NWO. So it would be ridiculous not to have them involved. And Conan, again, because of just what he brought to the table as a character, you've heard me say this before, it was all about casting. You couldn't possibly have casted the wolfback any better than those three. Talk to me about the other channel. You know, this is happening in May of 98. In April of 98 is the first time that Monday Night Raw

beats Nitro and ends that historic 83 weeks. Of course, the chief storyline that everybody's talking about on the other channel is Mr. McMahon versus Stonecold Steve Austin. Did that have, did that factor into the decision? of the timing of the wolf pack or is it totally unrelated okay no it was i mean no unrelated unrelated i'll go back to what we discussed a little bit ago it was more of okay n wos kind of wow huge success we're we're almost two years into the nw o now right by 98 april just a couple months shy of two years with this storyline uh it needed a change it it just gotten flat it quit progressive

in a logical manner. You started off this program talking about how Kevin Nash was a big advocate for, we have to split it up. We have to create more antagonists and all that. Did Hulk and Savage see it the same way? It was time to do something different. I think they probably did. I mean, when I say probably did it,

there was no resistance. I think everybody at one level or another knew that it just wasn't feeling. the way it had felt for the previous year and a half or two years that something needed to happen. I don't know that anybody, I don't know that anybody came to me and said, oh, man, this is horrible. We need to make a change. We need to figure out a way to breathe some new life. It wasn't that, but when the idea was proposed, there was absolutely zero pushback. Let's put it that way.

did you feel like wcw needed more for lack of a better word attitude i mean just seeing what w bf was doing with all the you know anti-authority stuff i mean clearly you had been doing a lot of that with the n w o but there was as you said a sense of sameness maybe it was getting stale is it is it less about attitude and more about let's just shake it up it was more about story it was more about how do we keep the story going how do we keep the nw o hot And without any respect, I mean, look, what was going on in WWE at that time was powerful. It started with Mike Tyson, right? That scene where Mr. McMahon's getting involved because Stone called Steve Austin and Mike Tyson are getting involved.

And McMahon takes, you know, Tyson's, you know, defense, so to speak. that was the beginning of the attitude era. That started it. That scene, that moment was the manifestation of an interview or a promo that Vince McMahon did late in 97, where Vince McMahon, I'm paraphrasing the hell out of this, but basically said we're no longer going to insult the intelligence of our audience. We're going to bring you more reality-based television, blah, blah. Oh, what he was really saying is we're not going to be a teen and pre-teen show anymore

because Eric Bischoff and Nitro have been kicking our ass for over two years. By the way, we were competitive from day one. People don't know this when they talk about ratings and compare one to the other. WCW Saturday Night was competitive with Monday Night Raw for a long time. But when we launched Nitro head-to-head, there was no more comparison. well there was there was a comparison but we were competitive immediately out of the gate it wasn't until 96 that we were bitch slapping them right and by late 97 and Vince McMahon comes out with his we're not going to insult the intelligence of our audience anymore what he was really

saying is we're going to do what those guys have been doing because our shit is bad it's not working our stuff is bad it's not working anymore we have to do with the the competition has been doing that that has put us in this position of being a distant number two that was in 97 now we're seeing it in the spring of 98 and it started with mike i've told the story before when zane brezlov called me i was somewhere in florida i was in orlando florida and zan brosloff called me he says you're not going to believe what wwee's going to do i said oh zane what are they going to do now because at that point i didn't care this is before the tyson mr mcgbathie right he's like man we're so far ahead of it doesn't matter

And when he, when Zane said, no, they're bringing in Mike Tyson to shoot an angle with us. And I went, yeah, that's going to leave a mark. And it did. But the whole red and white had nothing to do with that. It was just kind of happening at the same time. Let's talk a little bit about, uh, the, the thunder split. Josh, uh, one of our top guys over on, uh, ad free shows.com. He's on Twitter at Josh Haney 80.

He says if Nitro became the NWO show. Would you have had the OG NWO versus Wolfpack NWO as a series of stories and matches, then having Thunder be all WCW versus WCW stories and matches? No, I mean, God, we've talked about this so many times. The idea was for the NWO to have its own show on Nitro. Now, would there have been, much like in this series, sons of anarchy,

would there have been dissension and drama and conflict and story within the NWO on NITRO? Of course there would. Would the same thing probably have existed on WCW side on Thunder? Yes, it probably would. But there would have been talent that might not necessarily be in the NWO officially that would have been on that NITRO show, still competing, perhaps hoping for, an opportunity to get that NWO shirt or slash Sons of Anarchy Colors or cut, as they say in motorcycle club world. So you would have had a core NWO. There would have probably been some

competition and conflict and drama within it, but you also would have had talent that weren't necessarily part of the NWO, but on that roster. And the same being true for WCW. I hope that answers the question. Zol Lopez says people criticize the crowded size of the NWO. Why do you feel like there isn't much chatter on there being too many spinoffs of the NWO like Wolfpack, Hollywood, and LWO? I don't know. You know, I can't get inside of people's heads.

You know, people like to criticize for the sake of criticizing. And in most cases, because they're just interested and passionate and like to talk about, you know, what if or what could have happened or what would it could have, how could it have been better and different? And that's part of why this show exists, right? It's what you and I are talking about to a large degree every week. So I'm not being critical of that. But I think because the NWO had such a profound impact on the audience, on the industry, and because it grew big, too big, too fast, not in a logical progressive way, where the characters evolved in a logical progressive way. It was just, boom. Here it is, everybody. It started out as three.

Now there's 34, 35, 36, soon to be 37 new members. It just took so much steam out of the story and out of the appeal for the story that I think that's why people talk about it the most is because it had the most profound impact on them and had the most obvious kind of critical mistake. in terms of bringing so many people in so soon. Brian the pastor on Twitter wants to know, did you ever consider remaking the company to NWO wrestling? So instead of just calling it all WCW? No.

Serious thought into interview? Never got that far. Okay. Hey, Coach Rosie. Coach Rosie's with us over at every shows. I just saw him post something saying, is this show live? Coach,

how could we get any more live than this, brother? Come on now. uh tyler wants to know what was the reasoning for a second n w o rather than a new faction name you yourself say different than not less than is the way to go why n wulf pack and later nw silver why not something new and fresh to have over the nw o uh you know i don't know how to answer that um other than to say perhaps because i didn't feel like we needed something else we needed to find a way to improve something that was already so successful. I think the idea of the NWO and the potential drama that could have been created,

it wasn't, but it could have been created by creating that conflict and drama within the NWO had more upside than, oh, let's come up with another one. You know, NWO was magic. There's a reason people are still talking about it today, 25 or 30 years later. There's a reason why people still, you watch any live event today, WWE live event today, and you're going to see NWO merchandise. You know, it's still out there. It still has an impact.

It's still one of the top selling, or at least it was a couple of years ago, one of the top selling pieces of merchandise in the NWO catalog, in which exists a lot of great merchandise. You mean WWV? WWE, I'm sorry. There's a reason for that. And I think to answer the question, it was more about how do we keep it going and make it better as opposed to, oh, let's just come up with another one. I don't mean to be dismissive about the idea of coming up with something else, but I think we felt like we had so much gold, so much equity in this NWO thing, that it was more logical to think about how do we make it better and more interesting as opposed to let's just leave it the way it is to come up with something.

new all in mike 51 says any thought to changing up the NWO logo besides the color absolutely not absolutely not that logo when you go back and you look at the simplicity of that logo go back and look at the merchandise that existed back then prior to the NWO logo and the T-shirts and a merchandise go out and look at the W.WE merchandise that was available it was all bad Austin 316 and the NWO shirt changed it all Absolutely. And the NWO shirt preceded the Austin 316 shirt. NWO, when you saw that black and white, simple, aggressive logo, and I know I'm probably, I don't think that I'm absolutely right about this, but I think one of the things that we learned is, I'm going to dumb it down, right? Just for the sake of time, I'll dumb it down. Because I didn't think about this in advance. It wasn't like, oh, okay, here's what I know or here's what I feel.

So now I've got to come up with an idea that reflects it. It wasn't that. The NWO logo was designed by somebody that will never meet or know that worked for Disney MGM studios in their graphics department. Craig Leathers and his team. I don't know who for one person, but his team. And it might have been Craig worked with graphic design at Disney and said, here's this end up. Here's the New World Order organization. This is what they represent.

They're anti-heroes. They're, what's the, there's another word for it. They're kind of, this kind of anarchy vibe to it. You know, and he gave the description of what the NWO was, based on what happened, a bash at the beach, and Scott Hall and Kevin Nash, and all the story leading up to it, they took that creative,

I'm going nuts over this stuff. I love this talk. They took that creative to some graphic designer at Disney MGM Studios because that's where we were at the time. And we knew we had to come up with T-shirts for the NWO. We don't have one. What do we do? Let's go find somebody that can do it fast. We're at Disney MGM Studios.

Let's tag in their graphics department because, damn, they're pretty good. We tagged them in and that's what they came back with. They came back with several things, but that was the one we picked because it was simple. It's also a shirt that we learned subsequent to that. And I think the WWE learned, which they came up with the Austin 316 stuff, is you need to come up with a shirt that a wrestling, a guy who's a wrestling fan can wear at a wrestling event and everybody knows whose team you're on. But you could also take wear that same shirt out and try to get laid. Go hit the clubs. And not be embarrassed to wear it in public.

And not be embarrassed. It's like a, you know, a NASCAR shirt. You know, they're colorful. There's checker. and their sponsors on it and it's bright and it's got your favorite driver's face on it well guess what if you're a guy and you want to wear that shirt you're going to go out and try to meet a woman lame good freaking luck lame but the n w o shirt you could wear it to a wrestling event and everybody knew which team you were on they knew you yeah they knew that you knew that you knew that they knew

but you could also wear that shirt out on the street and that looked like a goof and that's why it worked there was no way we were going to think about changing that was too powerful tigers at the aquarium wants to know how close did it come to adding ddp to the wolf pack or was that all just a smoke screen i think there was a lot of coverage look ddp and and kevin ash and scott hall the reason ddp and scott hall ended up coming back to wcdb was in large part not because of ddp but he certainly facilitated it right they were tight they were tight when when Scott Hall and Kevin Nash were in WCW before they left to go to WWE, they were tight.

And when they came back, they were even tighter. So I'm sure there was conversations, but I think DDP would tell you, and it's really a question only he could answer. I think DDP was pretty convinced he didn't want to become part of a group. He wanted to be, he wanted to make it on his own without needing a rub from anybody else.

Now, he got the rub by not joining them. and it got him over like crazy. It was like shot him out of a rocket when he accepted the shirt and turned around and diamond cutter. I think it was Scott Hall. That's got him over. But I don't think DDP saw himself as being part of anybody's group. Adrian 2112 says curious if Eric thinks this storyline overall was the sort of

tipping point or oversaturation in the market of the NW for wrestling fans. Was there ever any discussion of, pivoting from the NWO storyline overall at this time to the next overarching story. So had you not gone with the Wolfpack, do you think you would have found a way to sunset, the NWO and this was just a way to breathe a new life into it? There was no option. And by the way, Coach Rosie said, he was at the rumble and he saw hundreds of NWO shirts in the crowd just to add some credibility to my point of view, our perspective.

But no, there was, no, it was all about how do we make it better, not how do we move on from it? I want to remind everybody. that we just started a brand new series over at edfreeshows.com and it's where we sit down with wrestling royalty Mr. David Crockett. We have his brothers Jimmy's Red Books. This is from the handwriting

of J.J. Dillon from the Mind of Dusty Roads and we break down day by day, show by show, everything that was happening in Jim Crockett promotions in 1985. We just posted January, 1985 last month. We're about to post February of 85 this month. And we already have March in the can. We're going

through the entire year of 1985, and boy, there's a lot of moving and shaking. Ricky Steamboat is going to leave the promotion in February of 85. We'll examine why and discuss the rumor and innuendo around that jump. And we're also going to talk about the deal that helped make WrestleMania possible. Yes, the Crockett's had a big hand in that. We'll talk about the entire deal structure, the rumor, what's real, what's not, and it all happens at ad-freeshows.com. And had you been a part of ad-freeshows.com, just

last night this past Sunday you would have got to sit down with Earl Hebner as we rewatched maybe the most famous angle of all time the old twin referee heel angle the the introduction of Earl Hebner into the WWE we got to see Dave and Earl Hebner makes some magic out there with Hulk Hogan and Andre the Giant and we watched it along with Earl Hebner and fielded your questions we have these interactive events each and every week over at ad-freeshows.com and we have exclusive interviews you can't get anywhere else. Like with Gary Juster, which is a name you've heard a lot on this podcast, but how many Gary Jester interviews have you heard? Probably none, but you can hear one right now

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Mucker Fother hoodie, which is great this time of year. if you'd like to get roasted on Twitter that's easy follow eric at e bischoff i am at hey hey it's conrad and if you think we've earned it throw us a five-star review but before we wrap this up and put a bow on it i want to find out how in the world it feels to be the number one book on amazon i just saw that not only is at the top of the charts but you guys had a promotion for 50% off eric tell us about your new book on amazon grateful yeah it's fun you know it guy evans is doing a great job, you know, keeping me in the loop on how we're doing at Amazon. And it was real fun

this past week to be number one in the wrestling category. I jokingly, you know, kind of created a little bit of competition between my good friend or my friend. I said, we're not good friends, but friends, Tyrus, who's been at number one for a long time. And we were number two. And it's like, oh, man, we got to get to number one. So I hit social media and got a big push. And so the guy Evans. That afternoon, boom, all of a sudden we're number one, which is, just fun. It's just a fun thing. And I think you'll dig the book, man. All I've seen is great reviews. Go read the reviews for yourself over on Amazon and save yourself some money. They're running promotions all the time. I just saw one this past week. 50% off. Grateful is what you need to look for on

Amazon.com. I got one more question for you. And I do want to talk about what we're touching on next week. So we're going to do both of those. But first, I want to remind everybody in my real life. I'm helping people save money at save with conrad.com. If you haven't already, go get yourself a quick quote. I'm telling you, you'll be glad you did. I'm going to help you get a cheaper monthly payment, and I'm going to help you get out of debt faster.

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great communication always felt like I was a priority. We're going to make you feel like a priority. Let my family save your family some money at save with conred.com. And a molestowness number 65084 equal housing lender save with conrad dot com eric one last question about the wolf pack and this is a fun one this i don't know why this tickles me but it does julio wants to know eric what exactly happens if you turn your back i don't know what it's the theme song eric come on now don't turn your back on the wolf pack oh okay i'm sorry I it's not in my playlist so you know you got to get some I can remember the words next week we're going to talk a lot more about the battle at wcw in 1998 it's wolf pack versus hollywood versus

wcw uh and and eric you sort of touched on this what could have been and maybe what was a little less than in two weeks we'll be back talking about super brawl where thankfully sting is going to show up somewhat tan and regain the wcdb world title from holkogan uh and we're also going to be talking about sensational Sherry Martel. Actually, we're doing Sherry next week, her start in the business, her time in the AWA from her epic WWF run with Randy Savage

and Sean Michaels and Ted DiBiase and then of course coming over to WCW working with Harlem Heat and Colonel Robert Parker and so much more. We're going to have a blast talking about Sherry. We want to celebrate one of these fallen legends and we set it at the top of the show. But I've been thinking about the genius

all weekend, man. Thoughts and prayers to the Pafo family. I hope that they're doing as best as could be expected right now. This was fun today, man, talking about the Wolfpack and how you guys turned on the money printer. Let's put some red ink on those NWO shirts and just let that dollar fly. That was it. It was a fun time. We would love to have the chance to do it over again, but I'm perfectly happy and grateful to have had that experience.

It was a fun time. It was an interesting time in the business. And I'll go back and watch it over at the network, Peacock. you're not familiar with that story go back and check it out it's pretty interesting be sure to check out strictly business it's going to be on your rsss feed here if you're subscribed to 83 weeks if you're not already hit subscribe button or better yet take a look at the video because they often have guests over on strictly business it's 83 weeks on youtube.com and it drops each and every week here breaking down the ends and outs of the finances and the business of professional wrestling

and the business that is the wrestling business this was fun today Eric, thanks for the time and I'm looking forward to celebrating Sherry next week right here on 83 weeks with Eric Bischoff.