83 Weeks with Eric Bischoff - Episode 270: Slamboree 1998

Starting point is 00:00:00 Hey, this is the National Treasure Nick Aldous, and I am recommending that you go to savewithconrad.com for all your home buying needs. Not only would I recommend Save With Conrad to friends and co-workers, I have many times already. If I know that their house hunting, my first recommendation to them always is get in touch with Conrad. His team are the real deal, and they will be straight up with you and do everything they can to get you in the house. at savewithconrad.com. Hey, hey, it's Conrad Thompson, and you're listening to 83 weeks with Eric Bischoff. Eric, what's going on, man? How are you?

Starting point is 00:00:50 Golly, I'm just great. Doing great. Man, we're going to have some fun today. Interesting week. Got a friend coming in from Phoenix to spend a couple days. with us next week a lot of stuff going on that's cool man we uh before we jump into our topic today is we're going to be talking about a really fun show we've got like two dozen pages of notes we're ready for slambury 1998 my god can we can we make a deal though like every time sabato

Starting point is 00:01:20 puts together that much material and he does a fantastic job by the way i'm not complaining at all very grateful to him but can we make make up another name for Dave Meltzer? Sure. Like, sure, because it, it might help me manage myself. Yeah. Because I hear his name. Anytime I hear, according to Meltzer, I just immediately. I'll switch it up. And I'm going to try to manage myself today. I'm going to try to be a better human being. This is a flaw in my character. It's a weakness in my personality. The fact that I respond so viscerally and immediately, just at the sound of his name. And I'm going to

Starting point is 00:02:00 to try to do better and I'm going to start on this show today. I like it. I like it. Of course, we know that everybody is trying to do better these days, including AEW. Eric, because we're recording right now, the entire wrestling world is talking about the possibility of a second AEW show. I guess it's like third AEW show, a Saturday night AEW show and there's lots of buzz about a new potential deal as we're recording we don't have anything confirmed but as we understand it this coming Wednesday there's going to be up fronts for the networks and Tony Kahn's teased a big announcement uh listen whether there's smoke there's fire sounds like we're getting the new show and maybe a whole lot more money I know

Starting point is 00:02:50 you're going to be talking about this on strictly business later this week but what do you expect I mean, this is an exciting thing for all of wrestling, is it not? It is indeed. You know, congratulations to Tony and the entire team at AEW. It's a vote of confidence from a television partner. And there's no way that is not a wonderful thing. I don't feel as positive about a third show just because history has proven that diluting your product and diluting your focus and just diluting your resources for too much

Starting point is 00:03:24 content is not strategically the best idea. Add to that, it's a Saturday night show when I don't know how many 18 to 49 year olds are home watching television on a Saturday night, maybe a bunch, but man, when I was in that demo, I would have been one of them. I just can't imagine that there's much of an audience for it. But hey, I've been wrong before. Let's see what happens. I mean, WCW Saturday night did all right for you guys for a while, but it is a different kind of it really didn't conrad it absolutely didn't it it never drove revenue it never drove pay-per-views profitably it never did anything that put wcw anywhere near black ink it was a tool ted turner brought if you read about ted turner he talked in one of the books

Starting point is 00:04:18 i read about i don't know if there was a biography or autobiography but in that book it went in into why Ted believed in professional wrestling when he was building the TBS network. Ted believed that while it was hard to sell advertising with, that there was a regular, loyal audience there and he needed to build his regular loyal audience. But it was a lost leader. When I first got the WCW Conrad, and I, I kid you not, I had more than one wrestler that I knew that I had worked with. Larry's Obisco being one of them.

Starting point is 00:04:56 There were others that said, Ted doesn't care if he makes money or not. He's cool with losing money, as long as he's got a television show on Saturday nights. It draws an audience. And that was what it was for. It was not profitable. We couldn't sell house shows.

Starting point is 00:05:12 We couldn't sell pay-per-views. WCW couldn't turn a profit with WCW Saturday night. So I kind of disagree. Well, you didn't say a full sentence either. You said it never. and that's just not true it didn't when you were there and it maybe not did maybe didn't for the turner organization but well that's that's that's my point of reference we're not talking about crock and promotion that's that's my point is is is it read it predated you wrestling i mean

Starting point is 00:05:37 saturday night's main event was a thing uh so the people will find it if it's if it's what they want to see they will find it i think sometimes we get so caught up on this is a good day this is a bad day hey man uh the NFL playoffs, the college football playoffs, NBA playoffs, World Series, lots of big stuff happens on Saturday night. If it's important, they'll find it. If it's not, they won't. I mean, that's kind of always been my approach.

Starting point is 00:06:06 Yeah, yeah, and important is an interesting word. If it's entertaining, if it's more fun to stay home and watch wrestling than it is to go out and party with your friends, yeah, it can work. And I'm saying that's not possible, but I haven't seen anything on television so far that would suggest to me that they're going to have, compelling enough television to change people's lifestyles on Saturday night. And like I said, I could be wrong, but there's a reason why you don't see a lot of first run programming on Saturday night.

Starting point is 00:06:34 Oh, no doubt about it. That's a strategy. Maybe, maybe, you know, executives at TVS one, hey, wait a minute. There is an audience in our demo that is staying at home and not doing anything. And that's your typical 18 to 49 year old. So let's provide content for them and see what happens. maybe that's the strategy. And it couldn't work. I just my reaction is, ugh.

Starting point is 00:06:56 Uh, well, let me say this. I appreciate what you're saying about you're saying first run content, you know, like traditional television shows sports, which is the way this is going to be categorized. It's going to be different. Live sports,

Starting point is 00:07:11 I think could work. I'm excited for them, whether it's a huge success or it's not ratings wise. If the rumors are true and they're getting the Brinks truck to back up, it's got to be a mission accomplished for a company that at this point is just a shade over four years old, right? 100%. Yeah. 100%.

Starting point is 00:07:29 Look, if TBS is paying for it, you know, it's a tough spot. What is Tony supposed to say? Now, I really don't want to do that because I heard Eric Bischoff talk about it on a podcast and three shows maybe a little bit too much for us right now. He's not going to say that. Nobody would. I wouldn't. Right. Nobody in her right mind would, especially if, like you said, that truck is backing up and are ready to open the doors.

Starting point is 00:07:48 You've got to take advantage of opportunity. I'm just suggesting that it's going to be a tough road. It's not going to be easy. We'll see. I don't want to say too much more. You know, I'm positive. Again, to be clear, congratulations to Tony Kahn and everybody at AEW that put that deal together, the roster, you know, the talent that people tune in to watch also deserve a lot of credit. And let's see what happens, man.

Starting point is 00:08:14 It is an exciting time between that and what's going on over in the UK, 60,000 so much. tickets sold. I mean, who is Tony's having a pretty good month. Yeah. I mean, when you think about the whole endeavor thing too, I was talking to Nick Houseman earlier today and we said, this might be the most important year in wrestling history. And he got even more specific. And he said, this might be the most important quarter. When you really think about it, like if the whole endeavor thing is going to shake out to be true, I mean, because these deals take times, but, but that's certainly the direction that's, headed. And now, you know, the potential of this new AEW deal. If the rumors are true,

Starting point is 00:08:57 this quarter is going to be landmark for wrestling history, something we're going to talk about for a long, long time. Yeah. And I think it's going to lay the foundation for a really exciting future because I mean, who's not, I'm, I'll speak for myself. I'm, I'm far more interested in the business of the wrestling business than I am in what goes on inside of the ring every week. Right. And that's just how I've evolved. You know, I still like to watch great wrestling. And if there's something really great that catches my attention, I'm going to sit down and watch it or make the time to sit down and watch it.

Starting point is 00:09:27 But for the most part, my interest in the wrestling industry is what goes on in the boardroom, what goes on in the business of the business, meaning advertising and distribution and platforms and creative strategies, very, very interested in that. And that's where my interest lies. And I think between Endeavor, there's certainly going to be enough there to follow and look into and be interested in. Just seeing the dynamics, do they change? You know, does Endeavor become more involved in WWE operations than perhaps I thought or maybe anybody else thought? Or do they sit back and let WWE be WWE?

Starting point is 00:10:11 It's going to be an interesting thing. I'm also really interested in seeing how the synergies play out. Now, that's going to take time. That's not going to be something that we're going to see developing. And we're not going to be seeing big announcements. I don't think any time inside of the next six months. It's going to take three months to close a deal, right, from the timely amount announced it. So let's say they're able to announce the deal is closed by August 1st.

Starting point is 00:10:36 Stretch it out a little bit, July for whatever. It'll be six months after that, in my opinion, that you'll start three months, that you'll start to see announcements, you'll start to see. you'll start to see things happening that we hadn't seen before in WWE as a result of potential synergy. And I really think sponsorships is going to be one of those categories where we're going to see a positive benefit to WWE as a result of the merger. You know, the talent thing, the crossover, I don't see much of that going on. I think the audience will get real tired of that real fast because it is what it is. It's just cross-promotion.

Starting point is 00:11:14 Unless the talent gets involved like a bad bunny. a little bit, Paul, and in a way that really entertains a wrestling audience, I don't see a lot of that. But there'll be some business dynamics that are going to be fun to track. On the UFC side, it'll be interesting to see what kind of international television distribution they can grow. It's going to be, I think, far more interesting to me to see if my opinion, that being the WWE's licensing and merchandising division is so robust and mature and successful,

Starting point is 00:11:52 I'll be interested to see if some of that becomes a benefit for UFC. So that's a stuff that like I'm fanboying out over. Right. As opposed to who's wrestling who in the next pay-per-view. Not to diminish that. Sure. No, I think we're on the same page there. I want to get your opinion on something I saw that was a fan-made graphic.

Starting point is 00:12:11 I'm not saying this is real. I'm not saying it's speculation. I'm just saying I saw a fan who made a cool graphic and it made me think, hmm, I got to ask Eric about that. You know, by the time WrestleMania rolls around next year, in theory, this endeavor deal is put to bed and now UFC and WWB are certainly in bed together. And you got to wonder, are there going to be crossover opportunities?

Starting point is 00:12:33 And there are some really, really big stars on the UFC side of the fence who candidly haven't won very many fights in a few years. And they're leveraging that. celebrity to drive television ratings. Of course, I'm talking about Connor McGregor. Man, I got to imagine Connor McGregor being the draw that he is and, and UFC probably trying to figure out how they can work with WWE and what all that's going to look like. Could you imagine a scenario where perhaps next year's WrestleMania is Connor McGregor versus Roman rates? I can't see that. I just can't. I can certainly

Starting point is 00:13:11 see Connor McGregor in WWE, that is, that's very easy to visualize. Like, I don't have to close my eyes. That's like a movie in my head right now as we talk about it. Why can't you visualize that? Like if we, if we can visualize bad bunny and we can visualize Mayweather and we can visualize Logan Paul, why can't we visualize Connor McGregor in your opinion? Not with Roman rains. Okay. It's, it's just good. It's not believable. You could pick Connor McGregor up and put him in your pocket

Starting point is 00:13:46 and take him for a walk. Or at least Roman Reigns could. I couldn't. He's just not, the size disparity just would take me out of it dramatically, visually. I just couldn't buy it. No matter how much of a badass

Starting point is 00:14:02 Connor McGregor may be, I can't see it. In, in professional wrestling ring, I can't. can't see the match happening in a believable way I just can't well they pulled it off a big show in Mayweather and again yeah and did they really though well I was an attraction I'm sure it drew money but you think WWE it would would gosh I have to be so careful with my words because people just twist shit inside and out sometimes do you

Starting point is 00:14:41 really think WWE would, for lack of a better term, prostitute Roman Raines and a championship for a traction match that was pretty much unbelievable and not credible.

Starting point is 00:14:54 I can't. I just can't see it. I think a lot of MMA fans, a lot of UFC fans would take the approach they did to when Brock Lesner ventured over into the UFC. I remember being there

Starting point is 00:15:07 when he fought Randy Couture surrounded by hardcore UFC enthusiasts who were so anti-WW and quote-unquote fake and phony wrestling that they couldn't stand it. And they wanted to send a message. They wanted to show Brock Lesner that this is real. You need to go back. This, blah, blah, blah. And I could totally see those same fans being motivated to say, okay, I know Roman Rain's a lot bigger, but he only knows how to do fake wrestling. He's a football player. He has no wrestling. He has no boxing. He has no boxing. He has the jihitsu. All of which is true, by the way. I could see all of that. I guess what I'm saying

Starting point is 00:15:46 is, you and I both know in our real life smaller men who were legit badasses who could tie your ass up in a knot. Like for instance, and I'm not saying this to be an ass, just saying Roman was a fantastic football player. But I would guess in real life, Cody or Dolf Ziegler or any of these guys who have these great amateur backgrounds, they can handle business. So it's not to say that a smaller UFC guy couldn't do the same as well that just feels really really big box office but somebody has to take the ale or we've got to be very very creative and i think that's where the rubber meets the road probably right because neither one of those guys i get it i get it and if you were to say to me could you see roman going over to ufc i think that would be a really bad idea for

Starting point is 00:16:34 all the reasons that you just stated but yeah i could see the ufc fans kind of reliving the Brock Lesnar, Randy Couture experience and galvanizing around McGregor, because, you know, Romans, a professional wrestler and not a professional fighter. I get it. But for McGregor to come over to WWE and build a story, number one, and there doesn't have to be a lot of matches. In fact, I would suggest that there should be almost no contact until the final, until they actually meet in the ring.

Starting point is 00:17:11 But other than maybe angle, incidental, outside of the ring kind of confrontations. But when, if that were to happen, Connor, like bad bunny, who is a freak of nature, I think, or Logan, who is just a very disciplined athlete and was 100% committed. Unless Conrad, not Conrad, Connor were to really learn how to wrestle so that he could go in there and have a, not just an acceptable match, but a great match with Roman, I think the audience will just gag all over it. If he just goes in there and it tries to be the tough, because in professional wrestling, it's not who's the toughest guy.

Starting point is 00:17:55 It's the story. It's who you're invested in. Who do you want to see when? And in order to tell that story, there has to be some physical dialogue. You know, on Broadway, all the dialogue. takes place on a stage. In a feature film or television show, it's all on the script and it manifests to the screen and it creates emotion. In professional wrestling, it's the drama and the story that plays out inside of the ring that helps advance that story and get people invested in the

Starting point is 00:18:25 character. If it comes down to, I don't know, he's a professional fighter and he's a professional wrestler, wonder who's going to win. I don't see that. And in order to avoid that, there has to be a great story. And I can't see that happening unless Connor were to really, really commit all a bad bunny or Logan Paul. I don't know. She's a super rich guy. I don't know if he's got the motivation for that.

Starting point is 00:18:50 But maybe, you know, he's also a huge character. I mean, he may be 170 pounds right now or whatever he is. He's gotten bigger, by the way, a lot bigger. A lot bigger. Yeah, yeah. But he's still short. It is what it is. But he has gotten a lot bigger.

Starting point is 00:19:09 And I could see Connor, and part of me can see, because I don't know him, obviously, but just he's so flamboyant. He loves the camera. He loves messing with people. He loves messing with the media. He's an over-the-top personality and an entertaining one at that. So I could see him going, you know what? My, his MMA careers kind of on, yeah, I'm on the downward slide.

Starting point is 00:19:32 Why not take advantage of this opportunity to jump on another ride? And if you were to really commit all about Bunny or Logan Paul, I see it because he's got mega doses of charisma. Yeah. I'd love to see it. I think it would be amazing. I think it would be a real shot in the arm and a real growth opportunity to WWE. There would be a lot of crossover fans who are maybe lapsed wrestling fans. They haven't watched it in a long time, but now they're going to go check it out because Conner's there. That happened with my parents and Ronda Rousey. They were big Ronda Rousey fight fans. when they heard she was going to do wrestling they said hey let us know what time that comes on we

Starting point is 00:20:09 want to come over i think Connor would have the exact same effect and i do think that he would put in the work maybe this is wishful thinking on my side but bad bunny and i said connor's a very rich guy bad bunny made like 88 million dollars last year so i think that's what makes him a freak he's doing it because he just wants to do it and he loves it very very very unusual it's very carolone Esk, isn't it? Yeah, very much so. He just did it for the fun. Let's talk about the Puerto Rico show. You and I recorded book in advance of that show. I told Bruce afterwards, please run more shows in Puerto Rico. How great was that crowd? Didn't see it. You tell me, man. How was it? Oh, God. Go out of your way. You're going to love it. Seriously. I can't get enough of it. Go watch it. It's amazing. Everything I heard, you know, I read a lot about it over the following day or two, and everything I read suggested that the crowd was just on fire. Really good stuff, and it was good stuff 25 years ago. Let's pick up where we left off.

Starting point is 00:21:17 Coming off of Spring Stampede, Randy Savage is the new WCW champion here in 1998, and the NWO seems to be coming apart at the seams. As we talk about the Nitro after Spring Stampede, there's a looming league. issue and this is not a storyline this is real life you and rick flair we've discussed it at great length in the archives it's 83 weeks on youtube.com that's 83 weeks on youtube.com one of our earliest episodes but man this is the era where it starts to feel like pressure starts to come your way in multiple directions you've got the you the w.E ending your 83 week streak you've got now this legal battle with rick flair you've got some larger than

Starting point is 00:22:03 life personalities having their vision of what they think the NWO and the storyline should be. Brad Hart's here. There's a lot of moving parts. Is the stress getting to you here? That part wasn't. That part didn't create the stress. And while all that was going on, Turner Broadcasting was doing everything that they could

Starting point is 00:22:23 to undermine WCW financially internally. This was the beginning of Turner Broadcasting prepping for the AOL merger. None of it was public. It was behind the scenes. Didn't start to really become obvious until later that year. But there was a lot of moving parts in Turner Broadcasting as a whole, not just WCW, a lot, almost every division of Turner Broadcasting was beginning to feel a lot of change, drastic change in preparation for that merger.

Starting point is 00:23:01 Let's talk about the flare thing here for a moment. moment because you know we saw at the end of 97 it got down to the nitty gritty with Brett and Vince McMahon and now here we are in the first half of 98 you're sort of doing the same thing with Rick Flair and I'm curious from your perspective were you hearing from other talent like I've always wondered how they viewed this like we know that you viewed Rick as a guy who had violated his contract and wasn't willing to do business and wasn't professional and he viewed you as a guy who was trying to I think he said abuse of power in the promo but certainly he felt like you weren't handling him the way he should have but you're

Starting point is 00:23:44 the boss and talent because you're on camera here and you're having a talent issue and you've had to draw a hard line I've always been curious how the other guys in the lockerer may have seen that do you remember there being people who were really buttering you up and they were on your side or other people who said, well, now about this Rick stuff, take us back to that moment in time. I certainly didn't have anybody approaching me saying, go, Eric. Right. You're doing the right thing. You know, that didn't occur.

Starting point is 00:24:16 It was an ugly situation all the way around. Nobody was happy about it. I certainly wasn't happy about it. Rick clearly wasn't happy about it. And the talent for the most part is a weird dynamic, you know, internally, at least to me, people were quiet about it. They didn't want to explain. an opinion. I think most people who knew Rick and liked Rick, whether they said it

Starting point is 00:24:43 or not, were very disappointed in me and pro-Rick. I think there was a percentage of talent that just didn't really care because it didn't affect them. And there was a segment of the, I think, the roster that kind of understood, but their loyalty was with the locker room. Their loyalty was not going to be with me. So to my face, I didn't get a lot. I didn't get a lot of feedback. That's kind of what I imagined that the, it's always boys versus office. But in this era, you're kind of, whether we really acknowledge it a lot here on the show

Starting point is 00:25:25 or not, you're kind of becoming one of the boys. I mean, you're an on screen character with these guys. you're riding the bike to these the Sturgis type events i mean you're friendly with talent your next door neighbor's ddp so yeah but but conrad i i did all these things before i became president of the company sure this isn't like all of a sudden erics turned into another personality i've been riding harley since i was 14 years old or riding motorcycle since i was 14 years old i i was friendly with a lot of the not a lot but a number of the talent you know on the roster before I got promoted.

Starting point is 00:26:00 Yes. It's not like I said, okay, I'm the boss now. And okay, all you people on. I'm going to delete you and delete you. It's not my thing. And I don't think, look, some people probably looked at me much differently than they would have looked at, for example, Jim Hurd or Kip Fry. Well, that's, that's what I was getting to is you, you were, you were the guy holding

Starting point is 00:26:22 the stick. You were the guy making, you're a part of their band of brothers and then you move up the ladder. That wasn't their experience. with Vince or Vern or anywhere else they would have worked like you go from we're one of our friends to now you're the boss and we're still able to be friends it's a unique dynamic compared to others no yeah and it was also awkward for for some people you know not the people that knew me well or reasonably well because it didn't really change me it but I'm sure that there

Starting point is 00:26:55 were some people who didn't have a relationship with me, who did find it really awkward. Is he really the boss? Because that was never one of the boys. I never tried to be, despite the narrative to the contrary. I had friends that were wrestlers, of course, before I got into the business, when I broke into the business, and certainly after I became president, yes, I had friends who were wrestlers. And I hung out with them. And I'd hang out with a large group of them after the shows on Monday night to watch the replay,

Starting point is 00:27:25 everybody else because it was fun and I enjoyed it. I did have some relationships, personal relationships. But I'm sure it was confusing for some people. And it was for me too. It's an awkward position to be in to go from being a potted plant that didn't threaten anybody or had any influence on anybody's life to becoming the guy who could say yes or no. It was an awkward transition for everyone, including me, by the way.

Starting point is 00:27:55 did you um did you think anybody at the time felt like you were i guess i should just ask were you trying to set an example or make an example um because you know the the talk at the time was occasionally locker rooms certainly in wcd could be the inmates running the asylum that was the phrase that was used a lot did you feel like you needed to uh make an example or did you just have a hard on for rick flair no i didn't i love i love i love loved Rick. I'm hesitant to even talk about this because every time I do, it sets Rick on fire. Well, let me say this. I was only asking because I wanted to say the word hard on because this episode is brought to you by Blue Chew. And everybody knows that Rick can achieve and maintain

Starting point is 00:28:45 an erection, but he probably needs a little help these days. Blue Chew is the hot tag he's been looking for. By the way, it's not just for guys who have a little problem. for guys who want to put on a show. Guys who are looking for that five-star match. Blue Shoe is a unique online service that delivers the same active ingredients as Viagra, Cialis, and Lovetra. But it's insurable tablets and at a fraction of the cost.

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Starting point is 00:29:55 receive your very first month free, visit bluechew.com for more details and important safety information. And we want to thank blue chew for sponsoring today's podcast. Yeah, I could imagine blue chew probably would have been pretty popular in the WCW locker room back then, right? By the way, I have yet to achieve five-star status, but I was cleaning up in and around the bedroom last Tuesday. And Mrs. B keeps a little notepad on the nightstand. I did notice that last Saturday morning, I did get a four-star. So I'm working my way up. She's leaving ratings for you.

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Starting point is 00:30:50 I've done him. I've done two out of three. Well, she put you over. Or did you put her over? I was we both put each other over. Oh, there you go. There you go.

Starting point is 00:31:00 That's a good tag team right there, folks. All right. So back to the in ring focus. Randy Savage, our new WCW champion. He's going to lose to Hollywood Hogan the night after spring stampede on Nitro.

Starting point is 00:31:11 So think about this now. We had an 18 month build between Sting and Hogan. And now Savage is the champ for a whole day. Loses it the very next day. I mean, listen, the money has always been. in most wrestling outside of the WWF's Hulk Hogan experiment.

Starting point is 00:31:31 It's always a heel champion in the baby faces chasing. Do you prefer that? Yes. Yeah. Yes. I believe. I think our entire culture roots consciously, very consciously and sometimes subconsciously for the underdog. Yes.

Starting point is 00:31:51 Everybody wants to see the little guy win. Everybody enjoys watching the underdog. win. It's part of who we are. So yeah, I like that. And I, absolutely. I mean, there's a time and a place to have your baby face champion. Certainly, Hulk Hogan prove that, as did John Cena. It makes sense. Steve Austin makes sense for the right person, for the right character, in the right situation when you've got a locker room deep with incredible, well-established Q rating mongers

Starting point is 00:32:30 that you can feed to that baby face. But absent a deep roster of viable, certifiably successful heels doesn't last too long. Historically. Well, it doesn't last too long for Raven either. He wins the U.S. title at Spring Stampede. And after all that build with Raven,

Starting point is 00:32:53 the very next day on Nitro, he drops it to Goldberg um we've talked about this that you say hey in hindsight this was a mistake and Goldberg really probably at this point didn't need it you know we at this point there's no way we would have known I shouldn't say that you didn't know here we're going to make him champ in July right that just continued to evolve correct yeah correct but you brought up a really interesting point that I think is true Goldberg didn't need it. Right.

Starting point is 00:33:27 Had, if I could do, if I had to do over on this one, I would have established Goldberg, much of the way we did. But I would have made him more of an attraction and used less of him. Because I think the anticipation that came with Bill Goldberg, the mystique that came with Bill Goldberg, the intensity that came with Bill Goldberg was something that you could tap into at the right time in the right way. use it and then let it go away for a while. Let it, let it, let it, let it heat up again.

Starting point is 00:34:01 Let the audience want to see Bill Goldberg, as opposed to what I did, which was feeling like, oh, no, he's successful. We got to get him out there. Love a do over on that. I would have stretched the whole second half of Bill Goldberg's career in WCW. I would have played that out over 18 or 24 month period as opposed. to the kind of condensed trajectory that it had.

Starting point is 00:34:30 Well, Hogan and Savage here one night after the pay-per-view are going to break the record. It was held just for one week by Austin McMahon. But this is the highest quarter hour in a competitive environment. It does a 6.53 rating and a 10.7 share. That means 4,774,000 homes were watching this match. this is about 8 million people minimum i mean i you got to think it's more it's more than 9 million people are watching hogan and savage here on nitro uh goldberg proves to be a ratings draw as well the first quarter hour when raw was going to be held a few weeks prior would have been

Starting point is 00:35:13 hurting nitro and instead with the announcement of goldberg getting his first big title shot man you get the whole audience to stick around so Once upon a time in September, this guy's, you know, just a guy coming out to wrestle Hugh Morris. We're not even sure who, what his name is until he's on the way to the ring. And then we tell Tony in his headset, you know, is it Bill Gold? Is it Goldberg? Is it Bill Goldberg? What is it? And now fast forward. And when we say he's getting a title shot against Raven the night, fans stick around. And it's just crazy to think that this is where wrestling was just 25 years ago. Obviously revenues are much higher now. But, but.

Starting point is 00:35:54 but ratings were so much higher then. And again, the way we consume is different and all that. Let's just take a look at where we are with the business. In March of 97, you were averaging 5,548 fans that shows. Here a year later, March of 98, you're up to 8,512. That's a more than 53% increase. So Conrad, let me ask you, and I don't know if you have this in front of you or not, but does that include live events or is that just,

Starting point is 00:36:24 TV tapings. That's all shows. All shows. That's a pretty good average. That's your house shows, your television tapings, your pay-per-views. Your average goes from 55-48 to 8512. So you're up more than 53%. You've also raised ticket prices. So your revenues aren't just up 53%. They're up 123%. Your television ratings too, man, they continue to boom. I always look back so fondly at 97, but really it's 98 that's the high watermark because your rating here is up 85% and your overall event revenue is up 67% this is as dusty rose used to say living on the edge of a lightning bolt is it not it is but what's ironic is I need to do light that's what's ironic um if you're watching along I have free shows I just lost one of my lights what's ironic is six 90 days

Starting point is 00:37:22 later, not even 90 days from this date in 1998, I was called to a meeting where I was told fundamentally how I was going to change my business. Can you imagine that? No. I mean, read Guy Evans' book. If you don't believe me, that's fine with me. I don't care. It doesn't hurt my feeling. It's not you, Conrad, but there's anybody out there listening that doesn't believe me. Read Guy Evans' book. Hear from Dick Cheatham. It was one of the Comptrollers, you know, listen to some of the interviews with some of the executives way above me. And this is what I mean when I started off the show, and that's why I said it. This is about the time when things started drastically changing.

Starting point is 00:38:08 About a month later from this event, I found out that my budget, which had been approved in 1997, in the fall of 97, late fall, had been approved, was being cut by a minimum of 30 to 40 percent in some divisions, more even than others. I was told I was in a hiring freeze. I couldn't hire anybody. I wanted to launch a website because websites were beginning to become a thing, right? I had heard about WWE and what they were investing in their website. And I wanted desperately to, again, you'll read about this in the book if you choose to read it. I couldn't hire anybody.

Starting point is 00:38:44 I couldn't develop a website for WCW unless I use someone from Turner. You know, and by the way, I couldn't choose who I got to bring in to WCW to build their website. It was chosen for me by somebody in Turner. I didn't get to vote. I just had to bring them in and hope for the best. And the people that I brought in, or the people that Turner broadcasting assigned to WCW to build a website, couldn't find their ass with both hands and a compass. And it's not, it shouldn't say it that way because it sounds like a personal shot,

Starting point is 00:39:15 but everything was so new. But Turner didn't have cutting edge technology. trust me when I tell you that and it was very very frustrating well I'm sure it's frustrating too when you finally lose in this ratings war after 83 consecutive weeks Vince gets a win and almost immediately afterwards talk about the luck and we say it all the time here timing is everything now the damn NBA playoffs are a thing so you're going to be preempted and your schedule is going to be moving around momentum is a real thing in sports and business and life and after they get a win this is the

Starting point is 00:39:57 worst possible time to be preempted is it not yes and no it's never good to be preempted because you're absolutely right momentum is a real thing getting the audience hooked on your story and compelling them to tune in to see what's going to happen next is the reason you produce television. And when you take people out of their habit and they latch on to something else, you hope they're going to come back most of the time they do, particularly in wrestling. Because as you pointed out early on, and I absolutely agree with you, wrestling is unique in that the audience will find you. They'll be more deliberate and more intentional to find professional wrestling than they will if you say move a sitcom from a Thursday night to a Tuesday

Starting point is 00:40:48 night you may not get that audience back they may not follow you wrestling audience will they will find you wrestling fans in a wrestling audience historically is i think one of the most loyal fan bases in all of entertainment i really believe that um they they will come they will find you they want to know what you had for breakfast they want to know what's going on in the office they they just can't get enough. And that's a great thing. And that's one of the reasons why, you know,

Starting point is 00:41:21 your point about the audience finding AEW on Saturday night, I don't just count that completely. I just, like I said, I think it's going to take some really compelling TV to get them to change your habits. But in this case, the NBA playoffs are changing their habits.

Starting point is 00:41:37 And you can only hope they're going to come back. And to answer your question about the best time or worst time of year, I would rather kind of take it in the spring. early summer than in the winter because the number of people watching television beginning in May, certainly into June and well into the summer, even April, people stop watching TV as much. It's just, it's seasonal, you know, it's staying lighter later for the most, the largest part of the country is finally getting nice outside. People are going, you know, instead of leaving work and going home and doing what they normally do in the wintertime,

Starting point is 00:42:15 having dinner sitting in front of the television they're going out after work they're hanging out they're playing softball they're doing other things outside taking their kids to sports practice and things outdoors so if you're going to take a hit i'd rather take it in the spring than in say December January February March because that's that's where from a television point of you most people are watching television let's talk about um the night invasion thing. We've talked about it a lot in the archives. If you want to see me hoot and holler at Eric, it's 83 weeks on YouTube.com. But let's remind everybody that this is the era where Nitro not only has the regular showing, but they also have the replay. And what's lost in this

Starting point is 00:43:03 whole invasion thing is yes, the show was airing at different times and all that because it's a tape delay. But it still does a 1.7 rating. Like, This show starts after midnight. People are still staying up to watch it. Now, I know there's a lot of West Coast people who are watching it. But still, that's a damn solid rating even back then for a middle of the night program. Goodness gracious. Yes, it was considering, you know, two thirds or more of that audience is asleep.

Starting point is 00:43:38 Right. Potential audience. The 30% of the country that is in. the Pacific time zone or whatever the percentage is. I don't know what it is. But that part of the country has a lot of people just on the West Coast. It's a lot of people. You're not getting negligible East Coast Midwest numbers.

Starting point is 00:44:01 We should remind everybody that not only is the NBA messing with Nitro, but Thunder is completely preempted two weeks in a row. And this is all based around the same time that the WWF, is getting hot with Mr. McMahon versus Austin. And you're trying to build and sell pay-per-views. Goodness gracious. Like, so I'm expected to sell these arenas out and they're not going to be live shows and I'm expected to get decent ratings even if I'm preempted.

Starting point is 00:44:31 And I'm expected to put forth a compelling pay-per-view that people are going to reach into their wallet and give me $30 for and not opt to do that for the show that doesn't move around. I mean, consistency is key. if we just started to release 83 weeks all willy-nilly whenever we wanted some days it's monday at 6a but other days it's not a show at all and then some weeks it'll be on sunday and some it's on Thursday and man that gets complicated and you're expected to just drudge through this and be successful and by God the product's hot enough you manage to do it with the benefit

Starting point is 00:45:06 of hindsight this is an even bigger accomplishment no I guess if you look at you know looking looking at it that way yeah i didn't look at it that way at the time but certainly yeah we were swimming upstream there's no doubt about it after all of this is happening with um you know building up these paper views and in the lawsuit with rick flair you also find yourself in court for a couple of days doing depositions for this antitrust lawsuit or whatever it was at the time with the WWF. You're dealing with Jerry McDivitt. Ah, that was a pleasure. And as I understand it, this is probably

Starting point is 00:45:46 about the whole Scott Hall, Kevin Nash business from a couple of years prior. What do you remember about this deposition with a figure we hear a lot about, but we haven't heard a lot from Mr. Jerry McDavitt? In a twisted,

Starting point is 00:46:02 kind of messed up way, I enjoyed it. And look, Jerry McDivitt is a master at what he does. But I kind of liked sitting across from him and knowing what he was trying to do and knowing what I was trying to not let him do

Starting point is 00:46:21 in a deposition is a real challenge. I mean, he's so smart and so good at what he did that I kind of look forward to the challenge. I knew I'd lose. There's no way I could stand toe to toe with Jerry McDivit in a deposition, but it was fun trying. In a weird way, I enjoyed it. The thing I didn't enjoy is Turner's lawyers were soft.

Starting point is 00:46:53 They just wanted it to go away. They went into it soft. Nobody even spent the time on the legal side to point out the fact that's, you know, Jerry McDivitt's big thing that he tried to point out is, you know, that Scott Hall came out on, on nitro with a wreath back hair and a curly cue and a toothpick. He did that in WCW. Yep.

Starting point is 00:47:20 And rather than Turner attorneys jumping all over that, we got beat to death by it. We got bitch slapped because of that. And it was defensible. And I just let it slide. So I think the part of me that was, if there was a part of me that was like, oh, I got to do this.

Starting point is 00:47:42 It's because I didn't feel like we were in it to win it. But personally, I was. At least to try. It's fun. I respect Jerry McDivitt. I learned a lot from Jerry McDivitt, actually. You can learn a lot sitting across from somebody like Jerry McDivit in a deposition.

Starting point is 00:48:02 It's a valuable experience. Can't buy it in college. Right. It's pretty cool. we are promoting Randy Savage versus Brett Hart and the outsiders defending the tag straps against Sting and the giant as the main two matches on Slambury. Here's the question. If Hogan wasn't going to be on this show,

Starting point is 00:48:25 could you have kept the title on Savage and have been Savage versus Brett for the title? Like, I could have seen that as being an attraction or did you feel like that match didn't need it. I'm sorry. You lost me on that timeline. So, so the night after a spring stampede, Hogan beats Savage for the belt. A nitro. But he's not on the next pay-per-view, he being Hogan.

Starting point is 00:48:48 So our main event is Brett Hart versus Randy Savage, but no title. It feels as if to me, and again, I don't know, what the hell do I know, if we're going to be marketing another pay-per-view and maybe Hogan isn't available or we've used his dates or whatever it is, he's not going to be on the show. He's not advertised at least. why not just have Hogan versus Brett for the title and if you want to keep it on Savage, cool, but I don't know, why take the belt off if you're not going to, the guy you're going to put the belt on, he's on the next pay per view. That's a good point. I don't know that, I don't know that there was a good reason.

Starting point is 00:49:22 And if there was, it would, it would require me being able to sit down and kind of look at what we had planned for late summer, early fall. there's a good chance we were planning something else for Hogan and the title going forward from this particular pay-per-view. The other thing, just listening to this and trying to imagine what was going through my head at the time, part of it may have been that I just didn't think that Brett Savage needed it. That's a big matchup. That's enough of an attraction that I don't, I don't, I.

Starting point is 00:50:01 I could see myself at that point in time, not feeling like Savage needed that belt to be the the right guy in that match for pay-per-view. Right. Let's talk about psychosis here for a minute. He's going to get sued by the owner of AAA, Antonio Peña, over the use of this name. Does this ever land directly on your radar because clearly Mr. Pena thinks he owns this IP? And as I understand it in Mexico, a lot of.

Starting point is 00:50:31 of the personas are that way the promotion comes up with it and they can stick another guy in that costume if they want asked le park the jean simmons kiss model yes there you go it's a wonderful model by the way i love the idea um now it didn't it certainly didn't end up on my desk it may have ended up on nick lambrose's desk or perhaps diana meyers nick was at my VP and dinah myers was assigned to us from Turner Legal. She didn't work for me, but she worked for WCW on behalf of Turner Legal, but she was in our office. Nick was also a lawyer, but he no longer reported the Turner Legal.

Starting point is 00:51:14 He reported to me. So it probably would have ended up on Diana's desk, maybe if it was a serious enough issue onto Nick Lambros's desk, but it didn't make it to mind. So it obviously was resolved or wasn't serious. One way to other, I don't remember. What's lost in all. of the whole DX invasion stuff in Norfolk is that's also the site where the wolf pack

Starting point is 00:51:36 is formed. Kevin Nash, Randy Savage, and Conan. But Conan is actually going to team with members of the black and white later in the night. That's with Scott Steiner and Brian Adams to take on Sting, Giant and Lex Ligger and a six man. How in the world does this happen? Where we're splitting the NWO, but this one guy, he can go back and forth. That's a little feels like a brand split these days, huh? It's weird, isn't it? Yes. It's weird.

Starting point is 00:52:08 Somebody screwed up. No doubt. That's all I can say. Savage is working hurt here. He's got an ACL and he's putting off knee surgery to work with bread at Slambury. So maybe that is another reason why maybe it makes sense for us to get the belt off of him. but that begs the question why put it on him unless you just needed to go back to putting it with a heel and maybe we thought it wasn't time for brett but there's a lot of debate over

Starting point is 00:52:40 the years about why we never got brett versus hogan do you think if we would have kept the belt on savage here it's fun to think about what ifs if we kept the belt on savage here and he does have the turd ACL and he drops it to brett would it have been inevitable then that we get Brett versus Hogan on paper view, you think? Sure. Sure. But it just the Brett Hulk opportunity was something, there were two things going on and probably more than two, but two main things that were going on there is number one, I really wanted to hold off on that. I wanted it to be a

Starting point is 00:53:19 great build. And we weren't ready for that yet at this point. Number one, we didn't have the plan. We didn't. There was no looming great idea out there that was beyond just oh we could shoot an angle and we're going to have a match i mean that's easy that doesn't take much talent but we weren't there yet we knew that brett hogan would be monster if it was done well so for better or worse there was no urgency on bret hogan number one because we didn't want to waste it or not maximize it and not have a story number two there was a chemistry issue. There had to be some trust there.

Starting point is 00:54:01 And Brett, with all due respect, and I do respect Brett for what he accomplished and what he was able to do in the ring in terms of performance and all that. But Brett was a unique personality and so clearly it was Hogan. And they had history. Chemistry wasn't right yet.

Starting point is 00:54:18 I didn't feel it. A lot of this is feel. There's no playbook. People think there's a playbook because it looks like it makes sense on paper. But when you factor in all the variables, including personalities and chemistry, sometimes what's obvious isn't quite possible at that time.

Starting point is 00:54:41 And that's where we were. I mean, you know, kind of in casual conversation, we're going to love the idea. So did Brett. They were both looking forward to it. But when it came down to it, doing it.

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Starting point is 00:58:29 So don't sleep on AG1. It makes a big difference in how you feel. Athletic greens.com slash 83 weeks. All right. Let's talk about some of the news and notes in this era. It's mentioned in the observer that Hulk Hogan wants Sting to turn heel and Sting refused you ever hearing that uh no no i haven't by the way coach rosy's joining us a coach and brian f thanks for joining us over at ad free shows josh hennie is here and i just want to thank

Starting point is 00:59:01 everybody who's watching along live on adfreyshows.com if you remember you have access to this stuff live as it happens and it's quite a bit of fun yes it is uh a heel sting i mean we know eventually Sting is going to join the NWO, but it's going to be the Wolfpack version of the NWO. Do you think Sting was a part of this, as the narrative goes, the political angling of Kevin Nash having his vision and Holcock and have us hit? I'm sorry to cut you off. Go ahead. Absolutely not. Sting is the least political animal that has probably ever stepped into a professional wrestling venue.

Starting point is 00:59:43 I wasn't asking about Sting wasn't recruiting someone. Hogan was trying to recruit Sting. I'm asking was Sting maybe, hey, Nash wants him on this side. Hogan wants him on this side. Maybe Hogan got to him first because we see the wolf packs being formed here. And we know eventually Sting is going to be there. So the report in the observer is he said no to Hogan, but he is going to join the wolf pack. So I think it's a natural assumption to think if we do have Kevin Nash with political views of what he thinks,

Starting point is 01:00:13 the angles and storylines should be and Hogan on the other side, both of these cats probably want to do stuff with Sting, right? Perhaps. Perhaps there was those conversations. I don't think there was, first of all, Hogan wasn't booking despite the narrative that I know certain people want to believe. Hulk may have thrown out the idea.

Starting point is 01:00:33 Right, right, right. Entirely possible or, and Kevin may have thrown out the idea entirely possible and probable in both cases. But was there ever a formal, decision? Was I involved? Was Kevin Sullivan involved? A lot of times, you know, and I don't do it intentionally, but Kevin was very much a part of a lot of these discussions and decisions. And perhaps Kevin had conversations with Stang or Halk or Nash that I wasn't a part of. That's entirely possible and probable as well. But was it ever a serious thing where we're all coming to Sting and going, you know, telling Hulk,

Starting point is 01:01:13 okay if you can get them to do it we're on board right it just wasn't the case i think too often what happens even it's happening it's happening today it's happening as we speak we talk about the rumors and the innuendo it still exists today clearly um i think oftentimes there are conversations that are reported as plans and it's not the case here but i'm sure it was discussed let's talk a little bit about um you know in this era there's a lot of moving parts in front of the camera and behind the scenes and something is going to those are going to collide with mark madden um you don't want me to say dave melzer so i won't i'll come up with a new name no i don't mind it's just it's just not like every other you know i get it i get it kermit

Starting point is 01:02:09 the frog wrote this uh there's some sort of a situation involving Mark Madden. Madden was dropped from all live broadcasts. He was doing some direct TV stuff during the commercial breaks on Nitro and also live play-by-play during the nitros, paper views and paper listens. So he was dropped for all the live broadcasts after slamming down a headset while on a direct TV broadcasts when there were some problems getting cues. He was told he would stay with the company doing his hotline messages, but a few days later he was fired from that as well by Nick Lambrose after doing a message that apparently put over the click and Rick Flair. However, Bischoff may have interceded to save the hotline spot.

Starting point is 01:02:53 Talk to me about Mark Madden here and was he, what's going on with him? Why is this difficult for him? There was, there was just tension between Mark and a lot of the talent. You know, Mark, I mean, we're all familiar with Mark Brandon. If you read his, if you follow him on social media or if you listen if you're in a Pittsburgh area and you listen to him on a radio or you watch him in WCW Mark is a very opinionated individual. He's got a style and his style was very confrontational. He understood how to get the product over. He wasn't like the best color commentator, but he was damn good and he had a massive personality. You know, I always thought of, ironically, they're both named Madden, but I always, you know, I looked at

Starting point is 01:03:46 Mark Madden as potentially, not when he came in, but I looked at his style, his voice, his perspective as what could have been WCW's version of John Madden. Right. He just, his delivery, his sense of timing and humor was so good, but he would say things and do things he's a hard guy to manage he's a very very single-minded individual that's really being kind and i like mark man a lot i have i have a lot of respect for him he's a very controversial guy he says some crazy shit so do i so do a lot of people i like it's cool um i don't hold it against him or anybody else but he was tough to manage internally he was really tough to manage mark whatever you do don't do this he'd find a way to do it but

Starting point is 01:04:41 but in a way that you couldn't have anticipated. There's always a challenge with Mark. And I think, you know, to a degree, he got out of the wrong side of some talent. I think in retrospect, what could I have done to better manage Mark Madden, the talent, work a little more closely with,

Starting point is 01:05:01 first of all, I would have had to have the vision that I have now or the sensibilities that I have now, which I didn't, by the way. But now what I would have done would probably be work more close, mostly with Mark nurture the good part of Mark, which is his intelligence, his, his, his delivery, his skills, his talent, and help him to see the benefit of maybe

Starting point is 01:05:26 working as a part of the team a little more because it marks of he's an individual man. He's he marches to his own drummer for better or worse. So did Brian Pilman. The Brian Pilman Memorial show is going to take place more than $25,000. is going to be raised to support the now late Melanie Pilman. We got lots of WCW and WWF talent on this show. I guess everybody can come together for a good cause like this. No issues with you.

Starting point is 01:05:55 None of what's. I fully supported it. I know you had to be in support of the rating when it comes out. Even after you have an early start, it's a two hour show starting an hour earlier. So it would have started at seven Eastern because of the NBA. it does a 3.48 rating and then there's a great game it's still light outside it's still light outside at 7 Eastern in the summer isn't it I think so okay it does just check it does a 4.18 so the lakers and the sonics get a 4.18 rating and nitro does a 3.48 that's really remarkable when you think

Starting point is 01:06:30 about that's not that big of a gap and you're not in prime time and they are they're the NBA and we're just rassling I mean even when you're getting bumped around people are still finding it dude they're digging it yeah that is pretty that's actually amazing you know and you look at the situation now of course somebody that i saw on social media actually started apologizing um for i'm not even going to say it i'm not even going to say it now i'm going to let it go yeah it was very impressive no matter how you look at it if you compare it to what's going on today where the nba has a substantial adverse impact, negative impact on ratings for everything else.

Starting point is 01:07:17 Nitro was able to hold up pretty well. We should also mention you're trying to pump the house show business up or so I think because here in late April and early August, you bounce the TV title around five times. On April 30th in Augusta, Georgia, Chris Benoit beats Booker T. The next day in Greenville, South Carolina, Booker wins it back. They do a rematch the next day in North Charleston, South Carolina. Benoit wins it back. Then on the third, we're at it again, and Booker T wins it back.

Starting point is 01:07:49 And then finally on Nitro and Indianapolis, David Finley is going to beat Booker T for the belt. On TV, none of the house show titles are acknowledged. But this is a big deal because it does feel as if we're trying to let fans know, hey man, house shows are important too. You can see some cool stuff. Is that sort of the thinking? Yeah, that was always the thinking that's probably the only reason the television title should have ever existed in the first place, but, excuse me, not the television title, but, um, yeah, television title. Although that doesn't make sense either, does it?

Starting point is 01:08:22 Well, it doesn't because it is a television title, but I get your point. And a lot of people would speculate, including Kermit the Frog, that the fans were unhappy in Augusta because the advertised main event was Rick Flair versus Kurt Henning, neither or there. And Raven versus DDP was also. advertised and neither are there. Now, they're not there because they're doing MTV stuff, but of course we know why Rick Flair's not there. So if we advertise two matches, neither or there, let's send them home happy and let them think they saw something of consequence. I get it. And clearly you were on board with it because they didn't do it just once or twice. They did it the whole weekend. Yeah, that would have been a Kevin Sullivan strategy. And Clearly it was a good one. It may have also been, correct me here, again, timeline escapes me and I don't have

Starting point is 01:09:15 a table full of research to refer to, but it may have possibly led to the Benoit Booker, Best of Seven. Yeah, we're getting there for sure. Yeah. So again, that's one of the big advantages of doing house shows is in this case. And again, I'm presuming a lot of things here. I didn't book house shows. So I wasn't involved in any of these decisions.

Starting point is 01:09:39 That's not putting it off because I'm putting this one over. So I'm not blaming anybody. I'm putting Kevin Sullivan over who would have booked this on the House Show circuit. That's one of the big advantages of House shows is, okay, you're forced, you know, because of a bad situation, Rick, Kurt, DDP Raven, bad situation, chicken salad or chicken shit. Let's go for chicken salad. Kevin came up with a brilliant plan or good plan. turned into a brilliant plan because that best of seven series between benoit and booker t i think

Starting point is 01:10:12 is classic classic late 90s wrestling i thought it was as i thought it was fantastic it was born out of necessity right late 90s uh also makes me think of total request live this is the era where we would see raven and ddp actually get physical on that show and i realize you know time and place maybe everyone listening to this doesn't remember t r l but it was the highest rated show on MTV, I believe, at the time. It was a live show. They're still playing. At this point, MTV is transitioning from just playing music videos into doing more other reality content.

Starting point is 01:10:50 So before, you know, teen mom, there was real world and road rules and all that sort of stuff. But you could always count on right after school in the late afternoon, bam, there's Carson Daily and Total Request Live. He's going to be playing your videos. It is going to be live. and Raven and DDP mix it up. And you guys even get to do a photo shoot with them in Times Square. That's worthwhile to miss a house show here, there. This is big time exposure.

Starting point is 01:11:16 Did you see any value in the MTV crossover opportunity here in the 90s? Sure. MTV owned that the younger spectrum of the 18 to 40. I don't know a lot of 49 year olds watching MTV. The some clearly, but their core audience was much younger. They were the 16 to 20. 24-year-old portion of not really an 18 to 49-year-old audience, but they were the younger end of the spectrum.

Starting point is 01:11:46 And of course, if you can expose yourself in a good way, not in an illegal way, but if you can expose yourself and your product to that new market and engage them and hopefully drag a couple of them with you over to your brand, that's nothing but a great opportunity. these no shows though i mean Kurt's not there rick's not there raven's not there ddp's not there we've heard a lot of people say that crockett's business started to go kaput because of no shows and a lot of people in wcdb say the same thing here that the the house show business started to die because of no shows was that rearing its head in 98 and were you and zane bresloff discussing it or was it not a priority at that point no it was a priority

Starting point is 01:12:32 And Zane, in particular, because, you know, the live event side of WCW's business, that was all Zane Bresloff at the core of it, certainly Gary Jester, you know, to support. But, yeah, I mean, Zane was, Zane, Zane was very aggressive about his business and would get very upset over those shows because it hurt him, Herd his credibility, herd his ability to be successful in that market next time. That's the real downside is you're sending people home with a bad taste in her mouth. They bought tickets. They didn't get what they thought they were going to get. Perhaps they were entertained and left with a good taste in her mouth,

Starting point is 01:13:17 but it's still not a good thing when you're advertised, not only one, but two. Now, people understand. The audience will understand an injury. They'll understand a travel issue when they happen. and occasionally. You're forgiving. But when you got two of your top billers, not being able to happen, it just leaves a bad taste in people's mouths. And it makes it a lot harder to that market as WCW learned in the early 90s. Let's talk about where

Starting point is 01:13:51 tickets are here. Kermit the Frog wrote, whatever fear there was about business starting the fall was alleviated this weekend when tickets for the June 8th Nitro in Auburn Hills and the June 15th Nitro at the Nassau Coliseum were put on sale. The Nassau Coliseum sold out in about 20 minutes, which would be the fastest sellout of a major arena in the history of pro wrestling in New York, which dates back almost 100 years, with 13,000 27 tickets for 38,000. $83,925. Now, but yet, but yet, and I hate to do this to you.

Starting point is 01:14:35 This is context. Context is king. I haven't used that in a long time, bro. Going to bring that back to life. But in context, the dirt sheet writers, the peripheral media, the people that just were anti-WCW to begin with,

Starting point is 01:14:52 all thought the WCW was dead. in December of 1997. Well, nobody was saying that. Oh, did I get my timeline mixed up? Oh, it was 98.

Starting point is 01:15:07 That was the Stinghogan thing, right? No, no, Stinghogan was December 97, but I mean, oh, there you go.

Starting point is 01:15:12 There you go. Well, hang on now. Let's talk about that. I'm glad we're talking about this, because there's parallels that we could bring up here. Today, I mean, creatively,

Starting point is 01:15:21 I see a lot of people who were frustrated and say, WWE this, WWE that, but WWE is enjoying their greatest success of all time right now. Correct.

Starting point is 01:15:34 And I think, you know, we're talking about two separate conversations. We can say creatively, WCW, shit the bed in December of 97. Business-wise, that one show,

Starting point is 01:15:46 that is not, regardless, a lot of people could argue, I saw people saying they were going to cancel the network and all that jazz

Starting point is 01:15:55 when Cody didn't win at WrestleMania. this year. But the next day, they announced, well, here's what we're doing now. And we just saw that most of us, saw the incredible pay-per-view in Puerto Rico. The beat goes on. So I think we're talking about two separate things here. Creatively, you could be frustrated.

Starting point is 01:16:13 But boy, business-wise, I mean, that's worth revisiting. Let's, I want to read that sentence one more time. This would be the fastest sellout of a major arena in the history of pro wrestling. in New York not WCW's history not the NWA not Jim Crockett promotions when people talk about the garden they talk about that with such reverence for the McMahon family that is the home of the spiritual home of the World Wrestling Federation and I know they're based in Connecticut I got that but I'm saying New York is the way the rest of the industry even referred

Starting point is 01:16:56 to them. Oh, I went down to Atlanta and then I got to go back to New York. It was almost like, oh, man. I mean, I just did a podcast last week with JR and we're talking about guys who worked in the Mid-South territory. And what a big deal it was after they've worked in all these little podunk towns in Louisiana and Oklahoma doing spot shows through the week. And they got to work the garden. It's considered like, oh my God, I get to. Not I have to. I get to go to Madison Square Garden. And you. the challenger brand not the this isn't your backyard you're going to their backyard and setting a record the fastest sellout wow that's really something man it is but again

Starting point is 01:17:43 you know this is a part of me that wishes i would have stopped along the way and appreciated certain things i mean that is a big deal but i i may not have even acknowledged it yeah I mean, just, it was just business. It wasn't a big deal. I mean, it was a big deal. Don't get me wrong. I was happy. I mean, Eric, you saw, I didn't sit back and crack a beer and go, do you believe this?

Starting point is 01:18:09 Do you realize what we just did, Zane? I don't call Zane Bresloff up and have that conversation. I should have. I wish I would have. I didn't. But it is, yeah, when you put it in that context, it is crazy. But my, my point was, and again, I'm, I want to get. negative here. But I keep trying to put things into context because things become so blown out of

Starting point is 01:18:33 context. This is in, what month was this? April? Yeah, we're in May of 1990. Hey, this is May of 1998. WCW is doing better financially and in every other respect than anybody could have ever. We were over delivering in every category, live events, pay-per-views, television ratings, probably even licensing and merchandising, although that doesn't really matter much because we started at basically zero. It is phenomenal that as late as mid-1998 we were doing as well as we were doing. But yet people like Kermit the Frog and others all point to today, oh, that was the beginning of the end or the finger polka doom was the beginning of the end.

Starting point is 01:19:20 All these things that in the fan's mind was the beginning of the end wasn't the beginning of the end. if it would have been the beginning of the end, we would not have sold out Nassau Coliseum in 20 minutes and set a record that may still exist. Probably not, but whatever. Eric, I don't put this in perspective. Sure.

Starting point is 01:19:39 You sold this show out, a nitro at the Nassau Coliseum. You sold it out faster than WrestleMania 1, faster than WrestleMania 2, faster than the first SummerSlam, just a regular ass night. intro and fans were more jazz to come see this. Do you think that had a lot to do with the ease of being?

Starting point is 01:20:01 I mean, you're going back a long way. All right. We're at WrestleMania 10. I mean, it's a lot easier to get tickets, you know, in 98 than it was in 89. WrestleMania 10. I mean, they're in Madison Square Garden. This is the, the granddaddy of them all.

Starting point is 01:20:15 And you sold out faster. By the way, it's not just New York, Detroit. The other on sale we were talking about, they used Bill Goldberg as a representative of there. He drew an incredible reaction. They did more than 10,000 tickets for over $206,000 the very first day. And the point is, you had to be ready or you were going to miss your opportunity to get those tickets. That's how hot you were. But you don't have to stress with game time. Man, you can get tickets as soon as the day of the event or as late as the day of the event. How about that for last minute? You see, game time specializes in flash deals and last minute

Starting point is 01:20:55 tickets, not just for wrestling, but all your sports and music, comedy, theater, whatever it is near you, game time has killer deals on it. But what I like best about game time is two things. Number one, the lowest price guarantee. They call it the game time guarantee. They guarantee you'll always get the best price. Here's how. If you find tickets in the same section in row for less money, game time will credit you 110% of the difference. So not only do you guarantee that you get the cheapest price. You get the cheapest price by 10%. How do you beat that? And you don't have to worry about planning months in advance like you had to with Nitro 25 years ago. Get the tickets the day of the event. But do it with peace of mind. This is my second favorite thing. They give you images

Starting point is 01:21:41 of seat views. Let me explain. We've all seen a seat map before. Okay, there's the ring in the middle. All right. I don't want to be on the floor way too far back because I want to see over the heads. I want to be lower level, but I want to have a great line of sight on. the ring is this section a good seat i can't tell eliminate that guesswork with game time they show you an image of the seat view you don't have to guess what your seats are going to look like you're going to know and by the way how's this for easy two taps and you're all set the tickets are sent straight to your phone you don't have to dig through your email it's right there snag the tickets without the stress with game time just download the game time app

Starting point is 01:22:19 create an account and use the code weeks for $20 off your first purchase terms apply again create an account and redeem code weeks for $20 off download game time today last minute tickets lowest price guaranteed so listen let's talk about creative because we've we've talked a little bit about the business and how hot you are here but old Kermit he says the reason Scott Hall or Kevin Nash goes on TV and says the reason Scott Hall hasn't been on TV is because Bischoff and Hogan are of what he might say on a live interview. And here's what Kermit the frog had to say.

Starting point is 01:23:00 After Sting wouldn't turn heel and team with Hogan, Hogan wanted Hull to join his side of the NWO, recognizing he needed a strong partner to make the feud work. And perhaps since fake storylines turned into real life changes in friends and lovers, maybe it would weaken Nash's attempt at a power base if Hall wasn't always with him. We'll have to see if Hall will agree with the idea, but the betting line is against that one. and even Luker's name has been thrown around as Hogan's potential backup.

Starting point is 01:23:29 So this is the reason I brought up the whole political stuff with Sting. Not saying Sting was political, but that maybe Hogan was trying to get someone on his side. And now I almost wonder, as I read that back, maybe it's just Hogan wanted to be comfortable. Because let's just address the elephant in the room, Hogan was a few years older than these guys. And he felt like probably he maybe leaned on the tandem of Holland Nash to, make him a little cooler, a little edgier at the start of the NWO. So if we are going to go with this split, he needs some cool on his side.

Starting point is 01:24:02 And man, it's hard to argue that Scott Hall was anything other than cool, right? You're like, you're like Jerry McDivitt when you ask a question. You ask the question with a right at the end of it. It's easy to say, yeah, you're right. But the whole premise of that was like, one guy's version of a fantasy drama going on behind the scenes, none of which may be true. He was speculating, just as you are. Perhaps this is why Hogan wanted Sting.

Starting point is 01:24:39 Or perhaps, like in any television show or movie, you want to balance your cast of characters so that it feels believable and interesting and compelling. And if you've got a cast of characters on one side who are very, very strong, as Scott Hall and Kevin Nash clearly was, then is it a sense of, well, I guess I just need to be comfortable or because I'm older, which is kind of negative. I need to have somebody younger. Or is it just, look, I love this idea, let's cast it properly so that it's not lopsided.

Starting point is 01:25:25 And perhaps, and I'm, this is all supposition, because I certainly don't recall the conversation, even if there was one. But perhaps it would have been just looking at the cast of characters and saying, okay, you know, you got a great combination of characters over here, a great entourage, if you will, if you will. And I need to build mine out a little more. That would just be good creative thinking. So I can't, I can't agree with you when you say, right, in the sense of maybe it's just Hogan, you know, feeling like because he's a little older, he needed to lean on somebody, you know, a little younger or, you know, whatever. I don't know that that was the case. And certainly neither does anybody else. but he wanted Hall on his side who wouldn't

Starting point is 01:26:20 I mean that's what I was asking but I was wrong but no you were asking him but with the prelude from Kermit well I mean does he want Virgil that Hulk felt like oh my gosh I can't pull this off on my own I got to rely on somebody else dude it was it was two entragists you want yours to be as strong as the one you're playing against. That's all. That's all that was. Yeah, he wanted Hall on his side. And I don't think Hulk ever felt insecure in himself. Probably if anything, if you're going to fault Hulk Hogan for anything at this stage, it would be having

Starting point is 01:26:58 too much confidence in himself. I'll, I'll attest to that. I'm not arguing that. I'm just saying he didn't want Hall and Nash on the other side with Conan and no disrespect. He's got Virgil and Brian Adams and IRS. That's as a character, you know, lineup, that's pretty lopsided, right? So I get it. I also get why Chris Jericho was starting to hit dingers here. My man comes out running down Dean Malenko and he's going to bring out a green

Starting point is 01:27:26 wrestler who he's calling Boer Us Malenko, the man of one hold. And instead of having a thousand on the back of his tights, he has literally the number one. Because he's the man of one hold. And Jericho says that the man. of a thousand holes is really just a marketing gimmick from wcw because malinko's so boring and has no personality and nobody cares about him great stuff here you were give it feels as if you gave jericho a little bit of uh uh creative freedom here and boy he a lot ball and ran with it didn't he a lot yeah a lot of creative freedom there wasn't much that chris wanted to do that we either

Starting point is 01:28:08 Kevin Sullivan or I balked at. If it got past Kevin and it got to me, I'm in when I came to Chris Jericho. I didn't think about it too much. Jericho, you know, if you're a wrestling fan, especially, you know, you're in your 40s or 50s, and you grew up watching this era, Monday Night War era, and you get the opportunity to go to peacock, not pitching, but go to peacock and watch some of early Jericho stuff. it will explain why Chris Jericho is still one of the most viable talents in the world today. He was amazing.

Starting point is 01:28:45 And that was just Jericho Riffin. And he was just, he would come up with that stuff on his own and go back and watch. It's fun to watch the evolution of Chris Jericho. It should be a class somewhere. The evolution of Chris Jericho should be a class because it's a great study in how to get yourself over. we should also talk about saturn he's starting to get over here and he's going to lose a loser must leave the flock match to hammer probably a good thing for saturn he had a upside and uh yeah there we go perry saturn out of the flock as we mentioned earlier finley is going to become

Starting point is 01:29:27 the new tv champion penning uh booker tea um where after benoit has him distracted it's a tombstone pile driver that gets it done but earlier in the show they had even been promoting Booker T versus Chris Benoit at the pay-per-view. So it's clear that this is done to just, hey, let's get excited. Let's show them something they don't expect, something they can't call. That really works for me. Was that something that you believe strongly in or someone else on the team? I know.

Starting point is 01:29:57 I think everybody believed. I mean, look, the reason going back to the summer of 1995 or late spring, whatever it was, when I was sitting in Ted Turner's office and he made. made the decision to go head to head with WWE on Monday nights. One of the first things that was on my list of things to do in terms of being different than the WWE was to be live. I believed that fleas fucking live could be interesting, right? Anything live is more interesting than anything on tape, in my opinion.

Starting point is 01:30:35 Where could a fellow watch these fleas do their thing? Discovery Channel. Okay. Yeah. Best of discovery. I didn't know they were doing that over there. Google the Internet. Okay.

Starting point is 01:30:49 But I always believed in live TV. And in order for live TV to really work, you have to have that anything can happen at any moment. I've talked at length before. I won't do it again about the research that I sat through in the focus groups that I was a part of and watch in six or eight different cities around the country, Seattle, Detroit, Detroit, Minneapolis, small towns, big towns, northeast, southeast, a lot, Arizona, Texas, Southern California. I went to focus groups all over the country with this research company and sat behind a one-way mirror and could watch the audience as the moderator in a focus group, went around and asked people, what do you love most about professional wrestling? It was the sense that

Starting point is 01:31:33 anything can happen. Well, there's no better way to take a sense of, take advantage of the sense that anything can happen as to do things that people don't expect when you have the luxury of live TV. And that's what all of that was. Everything I did, I try to do in a way to surprise people and deliver things that no one expected, starting with Lex Lugar for crying on aloud, drop it staying out of the ceiling. You go on. and on and on about the things that we did to try to stimulate that part of the viewers need to be excited about something they didn't expect to happen. Well, something I didn't expect to happen was Davey Boy, keep a job.

Starting point is 01:32:19 Kermit would write that he looks like he's done because on April 20th, he was booked to put over Scott Norton clean in Colorado Springs and he refused. So the match never took place. And a week later in Norfolk, my man doesn't even show up to the show. But somehow, Davy's still got a gig here. Uh, did you feel an obligation to Brett to keep him around? Because saying no, I won't do a job and then not showing up. That feels like the shit you would have fired honky talk man for.

Starting point is 01:32:48 No, it's the shit I would have fired a lot of people for, but there may have been circumstances. And I, which, which mitigated it. I understand. Perhaps. Or perhaps there was a, there was a, there was an age of strategy in mind for Davey boy. and we wanted to make it clean that could have been the case as well copy that let's talk about something that we get asked about a lot but we've never discussed it went down 25 years ago it's an MTV special from Chelsea pier in Manhattan on May 9th and Kermit would say it was so bad

Starting point is 01:33:19 that all standards of bad in this industry have now become passe but it's not exactly all your fault the real problem is that there's pouring rain and it's windy as hell and this is an outdoor event. So instead of having a huge crowd, there's like four dozen people there. And we've got Tony Shibani, Tony Shavani and Zabisco, clearly not having a good time. They're outside in the rain, in the wind. This was supposed to be eight matches for a three hour special. Instead, we get one match and it's 90 seconds where the public enemy beat high voltage and the rest are just bad interviews and bad angles and even worse. That is so horrible, Conrad.

Starting point is 01:34:00 That is so horrible. I feel bad for everybody involved as I'm sitting here now, 25 years later or whatever it was. The show was supposed to be three hours, mercifully. They cut it down to two hours. And it's so bad that the replay that was planned for later in the evening, they don't even air that. And of course, as we alluded to earlier, this whole MTV, WCW is most known for the Raven DDP TRL thing.

Starting point is 01:34:28 But man, if this would have worked, if the weather would have played along, man, this could have been really big for WCW. I could see it in my mind, but this is not really your fault. I mean, it's easy for Kermit and others to, Miss Piggy too, to point the finger and say, Eric should have did this, Eric should have did that. But damn, the weather, what can you do? Yeah, you can anticipate it. Yeah, and there's a chance that's one of the things about doing something outside, man.

Starting point is 01:34:57 Right. It can be great because it's a different vibe. It's a different feel. I mean, there's some, look, there's some negative things about doing something live. You don't get the audio, you know, the acoustics that help create that energy when you have a big crowd and a great venue. You know, you're outside. All that should just evaporate. Sturgis is a good example of that.

Starting point is 01:35:19 The stuff that we did in Panama City, you know, another great example of that. Yeah, it's cool. You got a great visual, but damn, you know, you're not getting the. the energy. And on top of that, you run the risk of getting rained on. It happened to us on a nitro, I believe in Charlotte for a NASCAR promotion, not a promotion, but a NASCAR themed nitro we were doing. I remember Dusty Rhodes and I standing outside in the rain in downtown Charlotte, you know, trying to try to do the exact same thing. And I think we actually pulled it off in the rain, which is bizarre, but the rain wasn't as bad as it was in New York. But yeah, it's

Starting point is 01:35:53 always risky. It's a beauty of live TV, though. let's talk a little bit about something that's going to be uncomfortable you and i've never talked about it and i think you got a story to this it was written at the time eric bischoff was deposed easy for me to say for three days this past week in the wbf lawsuit against wccc i can't believe this is real there are a lot of reports that the lawsuit is being used not as its primary purpose but questions are being asked to try and dig up personal dirt on eric off with the feeling that if they can nail him on something embarrassing for an executive and Tom Warner and he's dumped as a PR move similar to what happened with Bill Watts

Starting point is 01:36:36 that whomever follows him won't be nearly as aggressive or as successful in competition my goodness did you ever hear that this was that this narrative of hey they're just trying to get personal and string you up and then if they can get rid of you maybe they don't have any trouble with who replaces you. Well, keep in mind, I was the first one to ever come down the street that put Vince on the ropes. Yes. So I would imagine that they wanted me out.

Starting point is 01:37:08 Yes. And I would imagine they would want somebody with lesser instincts and abilities to take that spot, some corporate dude that's never been in the wrestling business. I could see them wanting that. That would be smart. That's some Sun Su shit. I get it. Art of war.

Starting point is 01:37:25 Do I believe it? I believe it's possible. But the good news is there was really, I mean, I was, you know, I don't have skeletons in my closet. I have a whole community. I have a village. But it's nothing that horrible. Certainly not in 1998.

Starting point is 01:37:45 There was nothing that horrible later on. A couple things you might want to talk about. But in 1998, you know, Never been arrested for anything. Well, that's not true. I had been arrested. But nothing, you know, horrible. Nothing salacious.

Starting point is 01:38:05 Nothing that would get an executive fired. Let's put it that way. So it didn't matter. If that's what they were doing and somebody told me about it, I would have just laughed it off because there was nothing to work with. Do you think being a part of this lawsuit and being asked some of these type questions, is this part of the reason? as well as the whole Norfolk scope thing that you go out and challenge Vince to show up

Starting point is 01:38:30 at Slambury that the the line of questioning and deposition had absolutely nothing to do with it I honestly looked at that Mars recreation then I didn't feel like I was being attacked personally it was WCW that was being attacked by WWE and I got that you know whether they had some legitimate rites or whether they were you know reaching and and I think clearly In retrospect, they were reaching, and they were successful in doing so. But I didn't take it personally at all, not even a little bit. And nothing Jerry McDivitt, you know, I remember standing next to Jerry McDivitt taking a leak during a coffee break and we were laughing and joking. It's, I didn't react to it the way I guess people would think I would.

Starting point is 01:39:16 No, the thing with Vince was all about the, with Sean Walman and the promo the Sean Walman cut. I went, all right, that was pretty good. I get, I'll take that punch, but I'm going to counterpunch because that's what I like to do. I'll take that, I'll take it, but I'm coming back. And that's what that was as far as me challenging Vince. It had nothing to do with the deposition. Did you know that Stephanie McMahon was graduating the day of Slambury or did you find out about that after the fact? No, I didn't know.

Starting point is 01:39:51 I heard that as an excuse after the fact, but it was a lame excuse. Did Vince ever bring it up to you once you started with WWE? No, and it's one of the things I was disappointed. I am disappointed. You know, Vince and I never, you know, all the time I was a talent there, which was, three, four years, five years, whatever it was. I don't remember four years. All the time I was there every week, every week I'd see Vince.

Starting point is 01:40:16 We'd have lunch together occasionally, you know, catering, always around, worked with them creatively in the ring, out of the ring, garbage trucks. you know the deal got fired by him but we worked together we never once sat down and had that conversation hey Vince come on what were you really thinking right about now right you know never did never had the chance to sit down maybe I will I don't know but never had the chance to sit down in a relaxed environment not in the studio or not in the venue necessarily or in catering where there's a lot of people around. And I spent plenty of time in his office in October 19,

Starting point is 01:40:58 actually more time than I wanted to, actually. But even one-on-one with nobody else there, never had those conversations. And I'm really, I really hope I do before. Either one of us are not capable of having it. Because there's just a lot of fascinating things to talk about that we never touched on. Well, let's talk about what people were saying about the challenge, or at least the show where you,

Starting point is 01:41:23 challenged it's a big rating you get a 4.42 rating it's the second best quarter hour head to head period there's a 4.5 where the giant is going to join hogan's NWO and chris jericho is going to do his thing with malinko but it's a big show man and you've got just tons of momentum and i wonder like you know, we often hear people say number one doesn't talk about number two. So when you were nipping at the heels of, uh, of WWE, you're going out and giving finishes and, and, and you're playing hard and you're trying to win. And I get that.

Starting point is 01:42:10 But a lot of times when the, did you feel like you weren't winning here? I'm just curious why the challenge for events? Why acknowledge the competition at all? Because the audience did. We were in a middle of what has become. known as the Monday Night Wars. It wasn't like the audience wasn't aware of what each of us were doing on the show. The audience sat there every Monday night with a remote and bounced back and forth. So to not comment, when we raised the bar as high as it was raised in the late 90s, and undeniably,

Starting point is 01:42:44 it was powerful, powerful weekly television. When you raise the bar of that level where there's seven, eight, nine, ten million people watching both shows at the same time. How do you not respond? It was a little bit different than when, you know, WCW, which very few people across the country really even knew existed, to be fair. And those who did know it existed had a very negative view of it, because WCW for many years sucked.

Starting point is 01:43:15 And the audience had made up their mind a long time ago. They weren't interested in WCW. So not only were we not very well known, the audience that did know us had a negative impact or negative impression of us. So for me to come out and start throwing hard balls and, you know, going after the batter's head and things like that by giving away finishes, notice how I use that baseball reference because I'm going to be in Springfield, Missouri, or Springfield, Illinois, not too long, hooking up with my buddy Jeff Jarrett.

Starting point is 01:43:42 That's right, going to do it. When I was doing that back then, it was like, oh, I got nothing to lose. I'm the little guy picking on the big guy. Most people want to see that, understand it. Now, fast forward, where into May of 1998, Tyson's showing up. They're switching to the formula that I've been using to beat their ass for 83 weeks. They're now going after my segment of the audience, the 18 to 49. They're abandoning the teen and preteen audience that was really the construct of their business model for years.

Starting point is 01:44:16 And now they're coming after my audience. audience. Holy crap. I got to step it up. So for me to not react, I think it would have been weird. Chicken shit. Yeah. It would have been chicken shit. Well, after they tried to invade your show and after they had Waltman come out and do a promo saying you suck pal and all this stuff, now they're going to show up at your WCW headquarters in Smyrna, Georgia. Are you, how are you made aware of this? Does Nick Lambrose call you? Who calls you? I mean, the one that everybody talks about is the one at the arena but there were others after uh how do you find out about those probably through jenny angle you know um look scope was a big deal it i wish i would have been able

Starting point is 01:45:04 to let them in the building because it would have made for great tv it it would have worked in my favor had i done that um but it didn't happen and after afterwards you know showing up in the arena or showing up at CNN Center and things like that. To me, that wasn't that big of a deal. It wasn't that impressive. Showing up at scope was. That was huge. Showing up at CNN Center was,

Starting point is 01:45:31 I get it, but didn't have the impact. Let's talk about the way we can describe the two heads of these different organizations. At this time, I think you're 41 years old. and Meltzer or the Kermit Frog would describe you as a man riding a bike and a leather jacket with dyed hair and he would describe Vince McMahon as a 52 year old also with dyed hair strutting around on sleeveless t-shirt four sizes too small acting as if he's tougher than all of his wrestlers and he's going to

Starting point is 01:46:07 basically be critical and say that you guys are making yourselves television stars here and in some cases exceed guys on the roster you know know and certainly you're both doing a good job but at any point when you're out here as a character and making these challenges and riding your motorcycle to the ring does anybody bring you over and say hey man maybe there's too much easy e and not enough eric bischoff does anybody okay no and that probably had a little bit to do with the record ratings the record sellouts the record revenues, the record pay-per-view buys, and the record licensing and merchandising, when everything's kind of working, not too many people come up to you and make suggestions about

Starting point is 01:46:54 how to change things. Right. It was working, you know, to suggest that, you know, we were out there trying to make ourselves television stars. We were. That's all. Vince McMahon was a powerful television character, and so was Eric Bischoff at that time. I had more heat than a lot of people on the roster not because I was forcing myself down anybody's throat but just because I was fucking good at it listen you work great at it no argument about that but I'm wondering what the benefit benefit of hindsight and it's easy for us to like I see people being critical of AEW creative right now and they say oh their business is here and and their creative is there and blah blah the dudes just sold 60,000 tickets so they're doing something right

Starting point is 01:47:42 So I get that, but I am curious, because we've always heard like this adage in wrestling, like you don't want your Booker to also be one of the boys. Like he can't make himself champion. A lot of people point to Dusty Rhodes and say that that was a challenge for him with Crockett to not take care of his own character. Was that a challenge for you in this era, do you think? Or could you not see the forest for the trees or if you had it to do over you, I just, look, was it unusual?

Starting point is 01:48:12 Yes. Historically, when your Booker is putting himself or herself, I guess, if we want to look into the future on television, it can be an issue. It can be a problem. It can be a problem morale-wise with talent, which is obvious. It can be a talent. It can be a challenge if you've got someone who's putting themselves out there

Starting point is 01:48:38 because they think they're really good, but they're really not. That can be a real problem. But in my case, I don't think it was. I think I was one of the reasons we were as successful as we were in 98. Not the reason. Don't get me wrong. If you're listening to this out there somewhere, I'm not putting myself at the head of the table,

Starting point is 01:49:02 but I'm putting myself as a leg of the table, my story, the story of my character, I should say. Yes. turning his back on WCW and facilitating the takeover of the NWO and aligning with them was a fucking great story and I was a pretty decent character to execute it. And the ratings, the revenue, the ticket sales, the licensing, the merchandising, the pay-per-view buy rates, everything else that you could measure, every metric available to a human being suggested that I was right. Now, could somebody with a better,

Starting point is 01:49:38 benefit of hindsight say, yeah, but if you wouldn't have done that, maybe this would have happened or maybe that would happen. Sure, you can live in that fantasy world all you want. You can entertain yourself with that kind of thinking and there's nothing wrong with it because it's kind of fun to sit back in fantasy book and wonder, but what would it happen of Bishop would have just never done that? That's not a bad way to spend a little bit of vital time if you're really into this stuff. But if you just look at the facts and the information or the data that was available, I hate to use it where it's another word being abused. more. But the information that was available to us at the time, any way you could measure success,

Starting point is 01:50:13 it was successful. So I just, you know, you hit it yourself. Second highest rated quarter head to head, you know, me challenging Vince McMahon. So what was wrong with that again? What should I have done differently? I don't know. You can, I mean, I can see someone having that opinion, but I don't want to share it. Let's, uh, let's remind. everybody that in this era it's very much uh do as I say now does I do I mean J.R is taking shots on commentary at WCW saying oh this isn't a seniors tour whenever we see the WCW headquarters he says that one segment after a Terry Funk match he's 53 at the time so come on it's one of those things you got to read through the go home for this

Starting point is 01:51:04 pay-per-view is a little confusing Eric I want to run through it a little bit the highlights show are Brett's getting a ton of heel heat. The flock has now kicked Van Hammer out of the flock and they're going to bring Saturn back in, which I guess makes last week a total waste of time. The Giants going to show up and join the NWO again for the second time. Hogan's going to pin Savage with help from Brett again, but this time Piper shows up and reverses the decision, but not the title. And he says he'll be the referee for Brett versus Randy. But we still haven't announced like, what is the paper? review. Is it the tag titles for the outsiders? Is it Brett and Randy? Maybe that's not

Starting point is 01:51:42 important. But we got a lot of moving parts on this show. Uh, was it, was it easy for creative to get away from you here because you're creating so much content weekend, week out? I think creative started getting away from us certainly as a result of thunder. It's why I'm so adamant. It's why I was so, eh, about AEW during the third show. Can they do it? Yes. Is it going to result in more money to the bottom line?

Starting point is 01:52:20 Obviously, yes. Is it going to have an adverse impact on your business going forward? Not talking about the money. The bottom line is the bottom line. But it's going to be a major challenge that's going to do. dilute creative and human resources. It just is. And the long-term effect of that is something that I live through

Starting point is 01:52:47 and something that we're probably seeing here and we're talking about here. Because as you dilute your human resources, that small handful of people that we relied upon to deliver the creative that got us to the point where we were here in 1998. And now you're spreading, you're basically cutting them in half. you're diluting them by two and it has an impact and i think that's part of what you saw here certainly affected me certainly affected kevin and everybody else that was on a creative team you're doing twice as much work in the same amount of time and everybody was already working

Starting point is 01:53:26 really hard so yeah it thunder definitely had and everybody brad seagull told me it would but I did it anyway. It. Yes. Short answer. Let's talk about Scott Hall here on this Nitro, this same episode. This is May 4th. The decision is made, even though he's at the building, let's not put him on TV yet.

Starting point is 01:53:52 Let's not put him on the program yet. At the go home edition of Thunder, the entire show is built around Hall and Nash taking on the public enemy, but then it's dusty roads and street clothes out there instead of Scott Hall. What was the thinking in not putting Scott Hall on TV if we're going to put him on the pay-per-view that same weekend? I don't know that there was any thinking behind it. It may have been likely may have been reacting.

Starting point is 01:54:24 Scott may not have been ready. Okay. It may not have been a creative decision. It may have been a practical decision. Well, that makes sense. Sting and Randy Savage is the main event. They only go a couple of minutes before Nash comes in. an attack sting and the giant makes the save.

Starting point is 01:54:39 So we're still trying to get towards the paper of you here. And then Kerman wrote this. Perhaps the most important news coming out of Bischoff's personal secretary is Janie Engel, a longtime WCW office employee, quit this past week to take a job with the WWF joining Lynn Brent, who worked in PR, who just made a similar career move. Actually, Engel is the third front office employee over the past weeks to quit. apparently at least partially because people are dropping from the internal pressure. Engel is believed by some to have made the switch because of her long-time connection to the funk family

Starting point is 01:55:14 and she has extensive knowledge of how Bischoff and WCW operates, both the positive and the negative, but also extensive knowledge of how contracts of WCW wrestlers, and at this point it still appears that barring major changes in WCW and the heart of the promotion as a group will be heading north in late 99. So the implication here is this is a major coup for the WWF because she has inside knowledge. What do you remember about Janie putting in her notice here? This one hurt.

Starting point is 01:55:50 This one is the, this was the only and I'm and I could be wrong, okay, absolutely could be wrong about what I'm going to say, but my impression was that this was as much personal as anything. I mean, Janie was a part of our family. My kids, when they were little, called her Auntie Janie because she spent so much time with our kids.

Starting point is 01:56:17 And there was a lot of internal pressure. That was a correct observation for sure. But when Janie, and it was hard on Janie, she had tears in her eyes when she told me.

Starting point is 01:56:33 And I did too. I mean, that one really, really hurt. And I don't know that it was so much about Janie's relationship with the Funk brothers. I'm not sure I even get that one. But Janie did have a relationship with Jim Ross. And it was Jim Ross, in my opinion, that was the one that was behind it. And I don't blame him. Janie was amazing.

Starting point is 01:57:01 She would have been a huge asset. as far as what she knew like she had she was like the secret vault that had a lot of information that you couldn't otherwise get that's not true there was nothing about wcw contracts that was a secret to anybody like they were probably posted online by that point that there was no hidden dirt or there were no bodies buried anywhere that janey knew about that could possibly benefit i mean there were bodies buried and things that she could have said and secret that she could have revealed that would have hurt people personally of course but in terms of having any kind of strategic or tactical advantage the only one was it kind of kicked me

Starting point is 01:57:46 into balls and stomped me in the chest that went hurt and I fought hard to get her to keep her and I did good for her by the way she fought hard talk about that about how you kept her I don't know that I begged, it's possible. Probably not in an overt way, but there would have been some pleading in my dialogue. Kidding aside, not trying to be smart-ass about it, you know, I said, Janie, what is it going to take? You know, part of it was me, right? I was a handful back then. How so?

Starting point is 01:58:34 I promised to get. I was focused. I was determined. I didn't have a lot of patience with people. So, Janey was right outside of my office. She'd either hear it. People would come to her, whatever. I mean, she was the buffer between me and everybody else.

Starting point is 01:58:58 They had to get through her to get to me. In most cases, not everybody. And that was hard for her at the time. I was a little hard to deal with back then because I was aggressive, because I was focused, because I didn't have a lot of patience in time for bullshit. And I didn't try to pretend. I didn't have a good corporate image that I would put forth during the process of not wanting to deal with certain situations or people.

Starting point is 01:59:26 I would just, what you see is what you get. I was not a lot different than than I am now. probably my volume was turned up quite a bit. My energy level was turned up a lot. But I didn't sugarcoat. That's the best way to say it. I didn't sugarcoat anything. And I was pretty gross at the time.

Starting point is 01:59:44 And some people thrived on that, in that, and a lot of people didn't. And Janie was stuck in the middle of it all. So I had to promise her. I would change the way I was going to conduct myself, at least around her. I got her as an assistant. That was a big part of it because she was so overworked. She was so overworked. And she, you know, she allowed herself to, she could have and probably should have thrown a flag earlier on.

Starting point is 02:00:14 But we just kept dumping more and more. Oh, Jayne. Hey, Janie, would you do that? Hey, Janie, because Janie was so good. She would, she could do anything. She could handle any situation. But people like that often get taken advantage of. nobody the i didn't try to take advantage or i loved her still do i wouldn't have tried to take

Starting point is 02:00:33 advantage her but i would have ended up taking advantage her without even taking advantage of her without even realizing i was doing it and that's kind of what happened took her for granted i did and i acknowledged that i paid her a lot more money that was part of it too well she was probably looking for something fresh and if you are too and you want to save some money can i recommend hello fresh america's number one meal kit man we want you to skip the trip to the grocery store just count on hello fresh to make home cooking easy fun and affordable what i like best about hello fresh is they make it easy to a get out of your rut be eat better c bring your family together and maybe my favorite make cooking easy i got admit i'm pretty handy on the grill

Starting point is 02:01:22 i know my way around that but man the inside all that other stuff, man, I buy too much or I buy too little and I forgot something and, man, what if you just didn't have to worry about it? What if all the ingredients showed up? Everything you needed right there. No more last minute trips to the grocery store. And even better, it's pre-portioned. Not too much, not too little, just enough. This checks all the boxes for me. I'm such a big fan of Hello Fresh. Now you can take your pick from over 40 different weekly recipes. As a matter of fact, they've got everything else you need, like snacks and breakfasts and lunches and lunches and desserts and just pantry accessories over a hundred different add-on items but this is for everybody my

Starting point is 02:02:03 favorite though are the quick and easy meals it makes feeding the family a cinch seriously we're talking 15 minutes or less and this may they're actually celebrating asian-american and pacific island or heritage month so you can try all kinds of new stuff that i couldn't even pronounce but i'll tell you it was damn delicious and no matter what your diet is they've got something for you whether it's fit and wholesome or veggie or I mean seriously whatever it is they've got it for you not only that it's cheaper that's right you can save money by skipping the trip to the grocery store because you over buy you buy two of the same thing you buy too much and all that stuff just goes to waste by the way it's even 25% cheaper than takeout and you don't have to be a pro in the kitchen

Starting point is 02:02:49 that's where I got intimidated I have to be honest when I first saw some of the dishes I was like I don't know that I can make that. Buddy, it's so easy. It's like it's numbered for you. There's photos. Like, you don't have to be a guru in the kitchen to make this happen. And it's going to taste delicious. It's got everything you want, nothing you don't want.

Starting point is 02:03:11 They've got professional dietitians here making sure that everything's exactly where it should be. I also want to mention this. It's fresh. It's not just a marketing thing. It's more than just a name. It goes from farm to your house and less than. on seven days so you know it's fresh it's been a home run in my life i think you're going to love it too the wife and i are going to do it again the night i can't wait to hear what your experience

Starting point is 02:03:35 has been like with hello fresh because it was something for fun fun for she and i to do check it out right now go to hellofresh.com slash 83 weeks 16 and use the promo code 83 week 16 for 16 free meals plus free shipping that's 83 weeks 16 and use the code 83 weeks 16 you'll get 16 free meals plus free shipping how do you beat 16 free meals Eric hello fresh America's number one meal kit this is the real deal dude it is indeed all right man we're finally here let's talk about it this show got 56.2% thumbs up and the lead right away in the observer is all about you before we talk about what kermit had to say let's talk about how the business is hot as a reminder the prior year at slambury you had rick flare

Starting point is 02:04:35 rottie piper and kevin green and a six man taking on holl and nash and six that did 165,000 buys this after all the thunders have been preempted after nitro's been moved around after we've got some hurt folks on the sidelines and one half of the main event with Scott Hall, not even on TV, 250,000 buys. So we're way, way up. And yet somehow, story's all about you. Kermit would write, is there a method to Eric Bischoff's madness or is it just madness? That was the question at the end of the strangest weeks of wrestling on television with Bischoff constantly taunting Vince McMahon. McMahon never, never, addressed the situation personally on television on 511, although it was mentioned in the

Starting point is 02:05:25 commentary during the show. By midweek, McMahon had responded on the WBF website. His lawyer, Jerry McDivitt, wrote a threatening letter to Bischoff. The WBF also complained to the cable companies about WCW. This is such a bitch move. Intimating man would have. I mean, that is a genius move. You have to admit. That's smart legally of him because they're going to say that you are sort of insinuating that he might be there at the pay-per-view. And of course, by the end of the week, Gene O'Clin on the WCW hotline and Jim Ross on the WBF hotline, they're rip-roaring ready to go. Quote, Bischoff, on the other hand, was totally out of control doing interviews on Thunder on May 14th

Starting point is 02:06:13 from Durham, New Hampshire, in one of which he read the McDivitt letter, a training video which aired twice showing him preparing for the match that wasn't going to take place and then teased throughout the pay-per-view that McMahon might be there before having Michael Buffer introduce a Bischoff versus McMahon match with McMahon not being there. The fans counted McMahon out of the ring and Bischoff had the ref award himself the match via forfeit. Listen, I really do like you having Michael Buffer out there to introduce you in Vince.

Starting point is 02:06:46 That's great stuff. But talk to me about the letter that you got because that is just super fun for me. Yeah, I don't remember the contents of the letter, but I remember getting it. You know, as far as, again, the idiot, the tapeworm, you call him Kerman. I call him a tapeworm because he is a parasite. But the tapeworm, of course, Eric Bishop was totally out of control. Quite the contrary. I went to legal counsel, Turner Legal, and said, here's what I'm going to do.

Starting point is 02:07:18 any issue of this got the green light so not only was i not out of control i was probably in more control as an executive than any time that i had been up until that point because we were you know knee deep in a lawsuit you kind of learned that you got to go with the program anyway i thought what i thought it was a bitch move i just thought it was a bitchy move i'm going to complain to the cable companies big man turners picking on me and erics bishops making it look like I'm coming to a show it's such a bitch move a prudent yes it makes you look like a bitch yeah and I wanted to have fun with it and I did under control no less amazing let's talk about the actual matches before we do I should remind everybody it's a sellout

Starting point is 02:08:09 surprise 11,592 fans are there they came to see me 10,000 to see me I was was the star of the show 10,936 fans paid $352,000. Another 107,000 in merch. Just a record every day in a row. Out first is David Finley retaining his WCW title, Penny Chris Benoit in 14 minutes and 52 seconds. Really a great match. Three and a quarter stars. And when he hits the Tombstone Pile Driver for the win, the crowd is silent. because no one could believe that Chris Benoit lost like it seriously looked like you were building towards Benoit moving up the ladder and instead Finley beats him but boy it was a great match it was a great match this is a professional wrestlers wrestling match this is the kind of

Starting point is 02:09:06 match that people that love pro wrestling whether they're professionals or fans you're going to sit back and watch and this is this is good solid basic but believable and beautiful wrestling let me go ahead and piss you off now since you talked about how much you like the match because i do too if you're confused as to why let me back that up if you're keeping score that makes four straight pay-per-view shows where benoit has challenged for a title that he's lost and six losses in his last seven paper-view matches if you're confused as to why reread the notes about the pelman memorial show closely and it'll all make sense.

Starting point is 02:09:51 What in the world are we talking about here? I have no idea. I have no idea. I mean, it's not like you're punishing the guy for working that show. That's silly. No, or maybe we were trying to make,

Starting point is 02:10:05 maybe we wanted, and again, I don't know. This one would have been a Calvin Sullivan and an Eric Bischoff creative decision. But I'm guessing knowing Kevin, he wanted to bring Ben Wad down so that he could fight his way back up.

Starting point is 02:10:22 That would make sense to me knowing Kevin. But this was a great match. Nonetheless, it was a great match. And also got Finley over. But it was, I don't know, I think it was kind of classic. Next up,

Starting point is 02:10:36 we got Lex Lugar beating Brian Adams in five minutes and five seconds with a torture rack after Lugar clocks Vincent with a forearm. It could have been worse. half a star, Ron Adams was really getting a lot of TV time in his run here up to this point. Why do you think it never really worked with him

Starting point is 02:10:55 as a member of WCW? Like in the NW. I know he had some success with Chronic, but this just feels like a miss. Yeah. He never did really fight his rhythm, did he? No. Nor did we with him.

Starting point is 02:11:10 God, it's another one of those. I mean, for me, timing, but that's kind of a catch-all because that answers a lot of questions, really. Because you look at, you look at him, he had all the tools. What tool, what tool could you possibly hope for in a talent that he didn't have? The look, he had the body, he had the great voice, he was capable. He wasn't known for his promos. But having worked with him and listened to him even before I started working with

Starting point is 02:11:45 him he had the the potential of being great on the mic he was decent in wcw but he had the potential of being great so he had everything going for him i i don't know man maybe it's just timing maybe with a guy like him you got to come along when there's a strong need for something new and big and fresh i don't want to say desperate but a real real need in order to get the focus and attention that it takes to get a guy like Brian who had every single tool it just had to be it just had to be polished up not everything fit quite right it was so close but not quite and to get to that next level requires help attention focus from a lot of people and I think when you come in to a company that's super hot like we were at that time

Starting point is 02:12:44 when Brian came in, desperation wasn't there. And perhaps that's it because it certainly wasn't a lack of potential. Or existing ability, not just potential. Right. But even existing abilities, he wasn't really taking, we didn't really take advantage of what we had in him. One of my favorite moments in WCW history happened on this show.

Starting point is 02:13:09 And it's not your false flag operation with, uh, with Vince McMahon. It's a cruiserweight battle. I take exception to that. The best part of this match, you got to go watch it. It's match number three. It's a 15 man cruiserweight battle royal winner gets a title shot at Chris Jericho. Jericho thinks, I'll take it from here junior and runs Dave pins are off from ringside. And he is hilarious.

Starting point is 02:13:34 You've got to hear him introduce these guys. He intentionally messes up their name. and their hometowns and where they're from. He even describes Chavo Guerrero Jr. as being from El Paso, Mexico. And he says, if you need a hubcap, psychosis will procure one for you. And he says, Damien painted his face because he couldn't afford a mask. And he called El Dandy, the winner of the Lou Forigno lookalike contest.

Starting point is 02:14:02 And he called Hove and 2 Guerrero, the ugliest wrestler alive. And he said, he'd never heard of Johnny Swinger. so that means he has absolutely no chance of winning. There's lots of crazy moves, as you might imagine, because it's the Cruiserweight Battle Royal, but what do you know? Ciclo Pays wins. Nobody ever imagined Ciclo P would win,

Starting point is 02:14:21 and that means he gets a title shot against Chris Jericho. And then Ciclo Pays en masse to one of the biggest surprise pops in WCW history. This ain't Ciclo P. It's Dean Malenko. What a great moment in Dean Malenko and Chris Jericho's career. What a classic moment for WCW and they immediately have a match. Malenko gets the win, seven minutes and two seconds, three and a quarter stars according

Starting point is 02:14:52 to Kermit. Man, this had the most heat for anything on the show. Just fantastic. Go out of your way to watch the battle royal in this match. This whole angle, the execution, Jericho's out of 10 here. I loved it, man. Who else can we give some? some flowers to you about this. Absolutely. In a neck and neck finish, Kevin Sullivan.

Starting point is 02:15:16 Fantastic. I mean, this is classic Chris. And I would not be shocked if you ever or I ever get a chance to talk to Kevin and ask this very question. Where do this all start? Because I wouldn't expect him to know either. I hate it when people ask me those questions because nobody ever knows where an idea actually started, right? Sometimes they just blow up in a room. but just the tone of it in the history and the pattern that we've seen with Chris Jericho over the decades, I bet you this started out as a Chris Jericho, Dean Malico idea. Kevin Sullivan got involved, cleaned it, polished it, helped time it in terms of the arc of that story.

Starting point is 02:15:58 But this has Chris Jericho and Kevin Sullivan's fingerprints all over it. And I'm not sure which one of them handled it the most. toss up. Chris may know. I'm going to ask because this is so entertaining, by the way. But you just love the setup. We can see the story just based on the way you set up this show so far. Chris Jericho comes out, runs down Dean Malinko, the most boring man.

Starting point is 02:16:24 They basically pisses all over him. Dean doesn't even hardly respond. He just kind of fits the bill, right? Stays in the background. And now does one of the most outrageous just unexpected non-boring things that anybody could probably do in the cruise away division and Dean did it. I just, this is Chris Jericho for sure and Kevin Sullivan all over it. I love this. I didn't even know this was coming. I'm so excited about this. I'm going to go back and watch

Starting point is 02:16:55 it. Dude, it's so good. I love it so much. And the other thing I really like on this show is Tony Schumani's remark. We see a white limo pull up in the back. And, Of course, we're waiting on the arrival of Vince McMahon. That's the thread throughout the whole show. So we see this limo pull up out back. We hear Tony Chivani on commentary say, we'll know if it's McMahon if we see Jim Ross get out of the limo carrying Vince's bags. And Meltzer would say,

Starting point is 02:17:25 let's just say the extreme professional jealousy that spurred that remark is something that dates back to 89 when Ross took over for Chivani as the host of World Championship wrestling and is no work. I love it, man. even the announcer is getting a little edgy. I mean, JR had been on the other channel, so it was Tony's time here.

Starting point is 02:17:43 Good stuff. And by the way, I just want to add, just to remind everybody, this is before Mick Foley wins the world title. Just throwing it out. DDP is going to be wrestling Raven in a Bowery death match

Starting point is 02:17:57 with a cage on top using a 10 count rules instead of pinfalls, 14 minutes and 35 seconds, sort of a basic ECW weapons style match two and a half stars um there's going to be a guy out here wearing a a swat team helmet he's going to take it off a reveal a mortise mask and then take off the mask and then we've we've got kidman and i mean there's lots of interference here but some goofy swat stuff too lots of weapons is this something i mean i know raven was high on this what did ddp think of all the gimmicks and props and

Starting point is 02:18:37 all that sort of stuff he he was there for it page didn't mind that kind of stuff he liked it i hated it right i just hated it but no page is up for it you know in the chemistry between a friendship as a result of the chemistry as a result of the friendship in the history between raven and and page i'm sure page was excited to do it him i'll tell you a placement on a card is important i would not have wanted to have followed the cruiserweight about a royal but I guess it makes sense if you're going to do the crazy cage but coming out of the cage and all the violence I don't know that I would have wanted to do a wrestling match and that's what Eddie Guerrero and Ultimo Dragon are tasked with doing they have arguably the best match on the

Starting point is 02:19:22 card I mean really when I say Eddie Guerrero wrestled Ultima Dragon you probably already knew that they go three and a quarter stars they get 11 minutes and nine seconds it's a really really good match but unfortunately the crowd's kind of dead for all of this because they've just seen a crazy cage match with all these weapons it eventually leads to chavo you know chavo is walking around wearing eddie grail's my favorite wrestler shirt and after the match chavo is so mad about dragon losing that he puts the boots to dragon so unmercifully that eddie has to pull him off and then eddie slaps chavo and dares him to slug him but instead chavo kisses him on the cheek I liked the interaction here of Chavo and Eddie.

Starting point is 02:20:06 That was a real story. And I don't know. I'm a fan of Chavo in this era. What do you think of Chavo and Eddie in this storyline you're putting together? I absolutely love the story. I didn't put it together again. This would have been a Kevin Sullivan thing along with Eddie. There is nothing about it.

Starting point is 02:20:26 I didn't thoroughly enjoy. And I think Chavo Guerrero probably. one of the most underrated performers in our lifetime, previous lifetime, not previous, recent lifetime. The last 20 years, 30 years. Chavo was, Chavo could have been a huge star. Timing didn't work right for Chavo. There may have been other issues, but for sure, timing.

Starting point is 02:20:55 He's an amazing performer. And he's got a great, great, great. mind for storytelling and psychology. I can't believe he's still floating around out there, not being utilized. Somebody is going to tap into the, I don't want to say brilliance. That's overstating things,

Starting point is 02:21:17 but somebody's going to tap into an amazing resource in Chavo Guerrero and realize that they hit a gold mine. He's so good. And he's got such, his experience, what he's grown up learning, what he's learned vicariously through others, what he's learned himself in the depth of his understanding of really good wrestling psychology and

Starting point is 02:21:43 storytelling, somebody better snatch him up. Well, you talked about his knowledge and a gold mine. If you're looking to make a gold mine and you need some knowledge, you need some insight, you need some experience, you need Impera. Tell him about it, Eric. One of my favorite tools in my toolbox, you're looking and listening to a guy who's never been really good at organization. It's been my Achilles' heel, is organization. Do I have a great vision?

Starting point is 02:22:19 I like to think I do. Do I have passion for the things that I'm interested in doing? Yeah, anybody that knows me and has worked with me knows that's the case. I got a lot of things going for me. One thing I don't have going for me is my natural organizational abilities. And I don't have an assistant. I don't have a secretary. I don't have anybody answering my phone.

Starting point is 02:22:42 I don't have anybody making sure I stay on top of my stuff. So I need a tool. I don't have a person. And pure is that tool. It's a tool that allows me to go to my dashboard and take a look at every aspect of my business, whether it's 83 weeks, and my schedule, the revenue generated through ad sales, the number of downloads, the increase, decrease of those downloads over a given period of time, all the things that kind of matter when you have a podcast, all of these are called pillars on my

Starting point is 02:23:16 dashboard, and I can measure them, I can watch them, I can track them, I can make adjustments along the way. I can figure out if some of my social media promotions are more effective than others. I can do a lot of stuff with Empirons. So can you. And it's cheaper than two of these a month. It's not the best part. The best part is an actual human being. By the way, a wrestling fan. That's how this all came to pass. They're all Australia, but they've got offices around the United States now. But it all starts with a phone call and a real live human being. It's on the other end and walks you through the process, helps you set up your dashboard, custom to your business and your needs.

Starting point is 02:23:58 So you can, if you're unorganized like me, or maybe you're organized, but you just need a little help, this is the tool to do it. And you can track your business. You can have a great business plan, but if you don't know how to work that plan, eh, not so much. Imperial allows you to work your plan and plan your work.

Starting point is 02:24:16 Sign up now. Sign up now and receive free onboarding. Your first 14 days for free and 24-7 support. Get ahead of the game and save 20% on your subscription. by using the code wrestle biz at checkout, launch your business plan faster and with less effort than ever before, visit impura.com slash Eric today to start your journey to success. That's EMPI-R-A-A dot com forward slash Eric. Empira.com forward slash Eric.

Starting point is 02:24:47 Next up, we've got Bill Goldberg retaining the U.S. title. He's going to beat Perry Saturn in seven minutes and one second. This is a last minute thrown-together match originally. it was supposed to be Saturn versus Glacier or Kerr Henning's knee is injured so he's out that means Goldberg has no opponent and really at this point people have given up on Glacier so we'll just put Saturn together against Goldberg and I guess the story is Raven is going to say hey if if my guy wins I get you next or I get the title shot whatever it may be doesn't matter Saturn is going to do a move leaping off a chair

Starting point is 02:25:26 Goldberg catches him in midair with a stiff tackle and the jackhammer. The pop, according to Kermit is still strong, but less than it has been anywhere for a few months, three quarters of a star. And up next is your segment, which we've covered in the archives, all about challenging Vince McMahon to a fight. Go check it out right now. So don't we have footage, can't we steal some footage from somebody? Footage is my work, especially my workout footage, dude.

Starting point is 02:25:53 I'm really disappointed that we can't show my workout footage because that was one of the last times I got into the rig and actually moved around and threw some punches and kicks. At 83 weeks over on Twitter. We'll have it live for your enjoyment today on a Monday. Go check it out. I got the rest of the afternoon to enjoy myself. Yeah, there you go. We'll post your challenge. We'll post the training. All of that will be live on social media right now at 83 weeks. Let's talk about Brett Hart and Randy Savage. Roddy Piper is the special guest referee. They go 16 minutes and 38 seconds. two and a half stars, according to Kermit. Randy gets the win by DQ.

Starting point is 02:26:28 The entire story is about Brett Hart working on offense, going after Savage's bad knee. And Meltzer would say, Hart did a great job of carrying a guy who was very limited because of his knee to an above average match. Elizabeth returned for absolutely no reason. Hart hit Savage with a low blow,

Starting point is 02:26:46 pulled out a foreign object and hit Piper with it, although Piper at the time was distracted by Liz. Savage got the object from Brett, but Hogan did a run in and tripped Savage's good leg and then smashed his bad one against the ringpost Brett puts on the sharpshooter. Piper turns around and sees the object in Savage's hand and while Savage was tapping out, Piper disqualified Savage for it was believed to be hitting him with the object. Two and a half stars. It's a little all over the place. Man, if you got Hogan here, couldn't you have put him wrestling? Like, as I understand it, you were paying Hogan whether he was

Starting point is 02:27:21 wrestling or not, right? no he was still being paid on a pay on a pay per view basis so i think the only reason hogan agreed just to show up and do a run in is because he wanted to see a vince wickman was going to show up i kid you not okay paul cogan was one of the first ones when i made that challenge he pulled me aside and said brother uh i know in fact i think i went to him before i did it i may have run it by him just to see what his reaction would be you know and I think you know he was serious dude you don't want to do that this this guy will show up and he he he's different he's a different cat is what Hulk told me and I Hulk believed up until

Starting point is 02:28:08 the last minute that Vince would show up it I mean I'm not sure that's why he agreed to just do it right now that I'm sitting here thinking if that mind me yeah I think that's it I think that's the only reason he said, yeah, I'll do a run-in. You fly me in because I want to see this happen. Let's talk about the main event. It's an interesting one. Sting in the giant are going to beat Kevin Nash and Scott Hall to win the tax traps in 1446.

Starting point is 02:28:37 Dusty Rhodes is going to be in Kevin Nash and Scott Hall's corner. Hall and Nash get a huge baby face pop, which has got to be challenging because they're the bad guys. Sting and the giant are going to be working as the faces, even if the fans don't really like them. But eventually the finish would see Rhodes put one of the tag belts on the apron. Hall picks it up and hits Nash with it and the giant pins Nash to win the titles. And apparently Nash suffered a legit concussion from the stiff belt shot.

Starting point is 02:29:11 It gets a dud rating. But this is the end of Hall and Nash as a tag team here, the end of an era, the end of the outsiders. And it's debated a lot, according to. to Kermit's work. Before the show, both Hall and Nash were heavily lobbying Bischoff to change his mind about the Hall turn, citing that in recent weeks both Brett Hart and the Giant had turned and then another two turns, both Hall and Dusty Roads at this point, when the fans are almost numb to hot shots, would probably leave everyone flat, which as it turned out was a

Starting point is 02:29:43 correct prediction. In addition, the timing of the turn made virtually no sense, since Hall was scheduled to go into rehab after nitro this time for real so he'll be unavailable for four to six weeks hall and nash eventually agreed to the turn because ultimately bischoff wouldn't budge and they weren't looking to breach their contract but insisted that when hall returns they still want to travel together and hang out together even though they're going to be feuding that was so weird that was such a weird report it is a serious because they still want to hang out together well guess what they were anyway they would have anyway yeah

Starting point is 02:30:20 baby faces and heels travel together all the time yes you idiot you tapeworm idiot what a stupid thing to say listen if you had it to do over again would you have done this split this way if you knew scott had to go away wouldn't it have made more sense keep them together get the belts off of them maybe injure hall explain his absence and then if they're going to split let's let it happen in a bigger moment and lead to a bigger match like hall versus nash could have been a top main event pay-per-view, no? That's fair. I don't know.

Starting point is 02:31:00 It's hard to argue that. Right. It did feel rushed. There wasn't much of a setup behind it. It was a surprise, you know, that we were digging for, that shocking moment that we wanted to use, create water cooler buzz that we did so effectively up until this point. and it was it was a miscalculation bad judgment let's do a few questions then we'll put a button on this one on this day in w e says how much input did jericho have in his weekly promos mocking malinko

Starting point is 02:31:33 they were the highlight of the show yeah like i said yeah a lot of this went down between sullivan and and jericho i wasn't really involved in it i wish i would have been so i could take some credit for it because it was just awesome um i would guess again guess because i wasn't in the room um i'm sure jericho ran a lot of it by kevin but i'm sure kevin also gave chris a lot of lead rope gave him a lot of room to run and chris was great at it you know ralphus care look at all this crazy stuff that chris did early in wcd some of the most entertaining stuff in the 90s and that was when chris was just relatively new and breaking into the business in a primetime way.

Starting point is 02:32:19 He was pretty fresh on the scene, and he just tore it up. So I'm sure Kevin gave me a lot of room to run. Instagram, a wrestling historian says, Could you have taken Vince McMahon in a shoot fight? I don't know. I was certainly not at my peak back then, but I could still go. All right, all right. I don't want to ask Eric Bischoff for that question.

Starting point is 02:32:41 Pretend to ask the EZE. No, I can't do that. I can't put myself in that frame of mind anymore. It's just I'm too old for it to relate to it anymore. I think I probably, I didn't care. I'm going to give you the easy e-version, but I'm going to tell you the truth first. I didn't really care. Hogan was convinced that Vince would just show up.

Starting point is 02:33:05 Yeah. No, he thought Vince would kill me. He says you better have, in fact, because of what Hogan told me, I pulled a giant aside, Paul White, and said, okay, Paul, here's the deal. As I told Doug Dillinger, because a lot of people really believe that Vince was going to show up because of Savage and because of Hogan, people that knew Vince really, really well, that knew that he wouldn't respond well to being called a chicken shit and challenged to a fight. And I would have agreed with them, now knowing Vince McMahon, the way I've come to know him a little bit. Anyway, because of what Hogan said to me, I called Paul. I said, okay, Paul, here's a deal. do not interfere. If this goes down, do not interfere unless it looks like it could be

Starting point is 02:33:47 permanent. Meaning, if Vince McMahon is in there digging out one of my eyes, go ahead and throw a chair, do whatever you need to do. But other than that, let it go. And this is going to sound weird to people, but I didn't care. I have, getting beat up is not the worst thing in the world. trust me I know that it just is not so I had no fear of getting beat I've been beat up so many times that it's just eh it's a speed bump sometimes it's a bigger speed bump than others sometimes you're going to have to have some body work done after the speed bump but at the end of the day it's just a moment in time and it's not as bad as people are afraid it would be and I'm thinking of it and first of all I have a fair amount of confidence of myself I bought guys

Starting point is 02:34:38 is bigger, bigger than Vince McMahon in the past. I'd had enough experience and I just wasn't insecure about it. It wasn't overconfident and I didn't really care to be honest. I figured if he came through the doors, I won. That was really my attitude. If he walks through the doors, I won. No matter what else happens after that. And that really was my feeling.

Starting point is 02:35:02 But in reality, are you kidding me? a jacked-up bodybuilder whose only cardio is walking from one machine to the next machine to get his pump on is going to step into the ring with a first-degree blackout a track record, an amateur professional kickboxing long before MMA was MMA that was called the PCA.

Starting point is 02:35:29 Yes, yours truly ESPN, my first amateur fight. Come on, are you, oh, let's not forget. wrestled in high school, wrestled in college, AAU freestyle Greco-Roman and freestyle wrestling. I wrestled on the USA team freestyle team against Sweden. So, yeah,

Starting point is 02:35:47 I'm kind of comfortable on the ground. It doesn't bother me. I'm happy to stand up and dance, especially against a 50-some-odd-year-old refrigerator that's so jacked up he can't wipe his own ass. Yeah, I was feeling pretty good about it. Thank you for that.

Starting point is 02:36:03 How's that? Much better. All right. Thank you. Appreciate that. easy. Michael Eldridge wants to know. Eric said in a previous episode that he was anti-growing kicks in karate tournaments,

Starting point is 02:36:13 hypothetically events had shown up for a match. What Eric have utilized a kick to the dick to get an upper hand? Nah, it's just a shitty way to go out. It just, nah. It takes absolutely no skill. Now, if it would have been a weapon involved or if it would have been in a different situation where I felt my life was in danger, sure, I'll do it. it's a fight not a not a not a sporting athletic event but in this scenario with television cameras

Starting point is 02:36:43 not a much rather swept him i'd have worked his legs a little bit got him thinking about that maybe throwing a kick or two to the head and when he wasn't quite ready for it after he gassed himself out in about 35 45 seconds because he would not have caught me i trust me when i tell you that would not have let him catch me um then yeah i would have swept him and then stomped on him because stomping on somebody when you're on the ground when they can't defend themselves that's a definitive fuck you and that was kind of what i was inclined to do adam lason wants to know what eric rather have vince shown up or let dx in the tank so if you had one wish come true you can decide Vince is going to show up at slambury 98 and y'all are going to fight or when that tank

Starting point is 02:37:29 starts rolling down the back at the Norfolk scope you just open that gate and let them own in what would you pick i had i had to go on for the scope yeah that's a big because that could have led to storyline yes right and knowing what i know now Vince would have kicked my ass i'm pretty sure i didn't think that way then and i as i just had fun walking you through i had a reason to think that way but eh i i think i'd have gone down i think i would have run out of room to run. And on the ground, I think Vince would have mauled me. But where would that have gone? Or let's say it went the other way. And I would have been able to do what I thought I could do at the time. Where would it go? It wouldn't know anywhere. Right. This had they been able to get

Starting point is 02:38:20 into the scope, that would have been story. And it would have been better branding. You know, again, Eric and Vince, it would have been really interesting. It would have been amazing for me. and I would have loved it. But it would have just come and gone. But man, that's, now we're taking a war to a real level. And it would have been more interesting. Terrell Lewis wants to know. Eric, do you think the Wolfpack's water was cut off too soon?

Starting point is 02:38:52 Arguably, you know, it was. But there was so many other things going on at the same time. It's hard to, it's hard to connect them. um perhaps yeah i mean look it didn't evolve it didn't mature it didn't and it didn't really have an arc it kind of it came out it kind of flatlined it didn't really go anywhere so obviously yeah it not only had this the plug pulled too soon it wasn't given the proper attention it deserved which is why the plug was pulled too soon bryant wants to know hall and ash always seemed better together how did they feel about splitting up that's not the question i want to ask

Starting point is 02:39:30 Were they opposed to working against each other? That's a great question from Brian. I don't think they would have been opposed to it, but much like Hogan, and I've talked to you about this before. And even, you know, Sting, although Sting, you know, reacted differently, a lot of guys at that level, if you can tell them where it's going and there is a sufficient build that gets them excited, they'd have been in in a second. But if you come, I think if we would have come to them

Starting point is 02:40:05 and said, hey, I got this idea. You're going to do this. And Kevin's going to do that. Scott's going to do this. And we're going to have a pay-per-view. No. If there was not enough meat on the bone, delectable meat, rare and delectable meat on the bone, neither one of them would have bit. But if it would have been the right situation, the right story in a second. Because they were, look, they were both difficult to work with in her own way, as is, as are, as were most of the top guys, including Hulk Hogan and Rick Flair and you name it, Randy Savage, everybody had a moment, everybody had a moment in their relationships with either myself or Vince McMahon or probably any number of other promoters where it was

Starting point is 02:40:50 tough to deal with them because they were, in their own way, they were perfectionist. were trying to protect their characters and he wanted to grow their careers and all of those things that went along with being in the professional wrestling business throughout the 70s and the 80s and the 90s. Um, but she would have given them a good story. The right buildup. Something that would be fun to do and interesting to do as a character. It wouldn't have hesitated. Let's talk about, uh, Malenko. Hazard F5 says the pop malinko got easily ranks on the top five pops in WCW history should more have been done with this story with jericho and malinko maybe revisit it a few months later for the u.s title could have been you know it's hard

Starting point is 02:41:34 you know should have that's that's a little strong could have absolutely because the magic was there the chemistry was there and the chemistry was there which is why there was magic the chemistry and the relationship and the respect between Dean Malenko and Chris Jericho, there were one of a lot of guys, you know, in the locker room that had the kind of mutual respect and in relationship that Chris and Dean did, as well as Eddie. You know, he's part of that. Chris, Benoit. So could it have, should it have been?

Starting point is 02:42:10 Maybe, perhaps not. Could it have been? Absolutely. One last one. we got a plug next week we managed to avoid it you said you didn't want to choose your words carefully because anytime you talked about your feud with flare it got upset and we managed to avoid that today we're going to undo all of that next week our topic is the four horsemen we're going to talk about the group the brand the legacy and why you think they're overrated

Starting point is 02:42:44 because they never drew down next week the four who Oh, listen. Whoa, whoa, well, okay. I got it. I got it. I remember them. Arn Anderson's group. Yeah.

Starting point is 02:42:55 Whose group? Arn Anderson. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Next week we'll be talking about it here on 83 weeks. Love to have your interaction on social. It's at 83 weeks on Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook. Please go check us out on YouTube.

Starting point is 02:43:10 You're going to love it. It's 83 weeks on YouTube.com. You can find all of your swag to support 83 weeks at Bocon. of gimmicks.com or 83 weeks merch.com. That's 83 weeks merch.com. And man, if your business targets men 25 to 54 years old, no better place to advertise than right here on 83 weeks. You hear some of the same ads over and over and over. Why is that? Well, because it really works. Find out how affordable it is right now at advertise with eric.com. Eric, while we were recording today, it's become public knowledge. I found out just moments before we clicked record and

Starting point is 02:43:47 and shared the news with you that we lost a valuable friend and team member over at adfreeshows.com today as we're recording. Mr. Josh Odom, who's been sort of, uh, the wizard of Oz behind the curtain of ad free shows, almost everything you've seen produced from ad free shows, with the exception of the long form video, man, that was all Josh. And if you've been to a top guy weekend and, and seen, you know, our AV and all that stuff, man, Josh did all of that and was just. a miracle worker at Starcast in Nashville and I mean here's a guy just in his mid 30s and

Starting point is 02:44:23 and he just he's no longer with us now my goodness just devastating news that neither you nor I could have ever anticipated or expected and uh well I don't really have the words in moments like these my word factory sort of shuts down and just want to say thoughts and prayers to his wife and children he leaves behind a great man gone way way too soon yeah I just did a show two nights ago, two days ago with Josh. It's just hard. It's hard to accept, hard to understand. And like you, there's no words.

Starting point is 02:44:59 There's nothing I'm going to say that's going to make any difference or make anybody feel any better out. But sincerely, sincerely feeling for Josh's wife and kids. Yeah, man, it sounds cliche. But sincerely, we loved him as a wrestling, friend. I can't imagine those folks who knew him as their husband or their dad or their brother or their son. Just a great man. And I don't know. It's a shock. It's a reminder to me that tomorrow's not promised and we need to do our best to let people know how we feel about them today. And I'm pretty

Starting point is 02:45:38 guilty at times of putting one foot in front of the other and focusing on the next thing I have to do. And we all at times get a little stressed out about what we think is important stuff that we're supposed to handle this thing or that thing and something like this happens and you kind of ask yourself, hey, is any of that shit really important? It's not. The people are important. So be sure to let the people around you know that they're important to you and what a big role they are in your life and that you appreciate them and that you love them because you may not have that chance someday and you'll regret it and uh i don't know what i'm supposed to say here i just know i'm going to miss our friend josh and uh i'm sorry if we were off our game today

Starting point is 02:46:24 we did our best to soldier on but goodness gracious man in the scheme of things talking about wrestling then now forever is always going to be fun but it's not the most important thing that's our family right e absolutely see you down the road josh See you guys next week right here on 83 weeks. Fight Plus is the ultimate digital platform for live sports and entertainment, and they're now offering a free seven-day trial at tryfight.com. Fight Plus is packed with a premium live event schedule over a thousand hours of live action every year in a library of more than 4,000 hours on demand, plus exclusive content

Starting point is 02:47:06 you can't get anywhere else. Fight is a great partner of ours. They support us, so let's support them. Give that free seven-day trial a shot, and you'll be a member for life. That's tryfight.com. T-R-Y-F-I-T-E dot com.

83 Weeks with Eric Bischoff - Episode 270: Slamboree 1998

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