83 Weeks with Eric Bischoff - Episode 271: AEW Collision & The Four Horsemen

Starting point is 00:00:00 Get rid of your credit card debt, get a lower monthly payment, and skip your next two house payments at savewithconrad.com. In the MLS number 65084, equal housing lender, you don't need perfect credit or money out of your pocket to save thousands with save withconrad.com. Find out how much money you can save right now at save with Conrad.com. Thanks with Eric Pischoff. Eric, what's going on, man? How are you? I'm doing great. But before we even get started, Conrad, I just want to thank everybody that's listening.

Starting point is 00:00:41 Okay. Just every time I do one of these episodes and I'm done with it, I just think about how grateful I am to have this opportunity and be a part of the community that you've established here. You and the team have established here. it part of podcast heat and ad free shows network it's it's a great thing and thank you to everybody that's listening i didn't develop it dude we developed it and we're excited that you guys are here along with the ride it's fun to record with you every week man you know this is uh i guess technically something that we do uh for a living as part of our income but man i'd pay to do it i'm having so much fun and i love talking about the good old days of professional wrestling and

Starting point is 00:01:22 we're going to do that today we're going to have a little fun talking about the four horseman and I think I have an idea of what you think about the horsemen we're going to find out for sure and we're going to examine that in long form but before we do man we should talk about some some big news and wrestling these days goodness gracious it finally happened this past week AEW announced their brand new show this will be their third television show of course we all know how blockbuster it was when tony con was able to land live shows on Wednesday night called it dynamite and then soon after he rolled out a Friday night operation called Rampage. We know there's been a couple of shows on YouTube, dark, and elevation,

Starting point is 00:02:02 but now he's acquired Ring of Honor. And now he's also got a Saturday night AEW show collision. It's a real thing and it's going to be here before you know it. As you and I are recording, it's inside of a month. It's going to be live on Saturday, June 17th. And man, I can't help but notice that the graphic and the presentation. Boy, it feels a little nostalgic for a little thing called Nitro, which used to be a big doggone deal on T&T. What did you think when you heard the announcement? And more importantly, what did you think about that new logo? Well, the announcement is, you know, it was kind of anticlimactic because we all, we all saw coming. You know, the rumor of it and various details of it, however correct or

Starting point is 00:02:48 incorrect they were. It's been floating around now for a couple of weeks. So, interesting, I guess. You know, I've talked about, and John Elba and I are going to go into the business of this in greater detail on strictly business. But it's great news in, I guess, many respects or a couple respects. Financially, it's probably a good thing for Tony. We don't know what the details of that are. But I'm assuming it's going to be financially a good deal for Tony, maybe a great deal. We don't know.

Starting point is 00:03:22 Um, strategically, I think it's a bad move. I've said that since the very beginning. In fact, back when AEW was, you know, promoting the stuff that they were going to do on YouTube, I kind of shook my head and went, man, don't do that yet. You know, build your core audience, grow your brand. Make sure you have a strong foundation before you expand in more programming, more content, because it takes time. It takes money. It takes creative resources. It takes human resources. And until you've got your infrastructure, your team, your process, all in place,

Starting point is 00:04:04 and you can add another show without diluting or taking away from your core product, whether that be human resources, financial resources, which probably isn't an issue, but human resources is and clearly creative resources are. there's enough talent, no question about that. But I think the creative resources and experience within AEW have proven to be less than, I don't know, inspiring. So they've got their work cut out for them. I'm going to remain optimistic. I hope it works.

Starting point is 00:04:39 Oh, yeah, and let's throw in the fact that it's Saturday night from 8 to 10 targeting 18 to 49 year old males. Obviously, somebody in TBS programming knows something or believes something. that I don't know or believe, but that's a tough spot. And then you add the, you know, clown car antics surrounding CM Punk and the announcement and the unannouncement and all that. They're stepping into a very difficult time period, day part, Saturday night. They're stepping into it awkwardly with all the buildup and the hype and the speculation about CM Punk being the center of the show.

Starting point is 00:05:19 all that. And now they're setting out press releases saying CM Punk's not affiliated with the product. That is not the right way to the debut a show. That I can tell you. So I'm, you know, I'm not negative about it. I'm I think realistic about it, hopeful for, for the team at AEW, but it is not without challenges. Well, listen, I don't want to pretend that I think I have all the answers to any of this but as you might imagine do have some counterpoints for you some head scratchers based on what you said in my opinion we'll start with the saturday night time slot first of all i mean i think we both agree and i don't know but i would imagine that it's not like tony was able to dictate okay i'll take a show on so-and-so day like the

Starting point is 00:06:11 network is going to have the leverage there and i wonder from your perspective perspective, how is Saturday night much different than Friday night Smackdown on Fox? Well, number one, because it's Fox, so you've got a broader reach anytime you've got a network opportunity versus a cable opportunity. And let's face it, TBS is not, you know, they're probably in a top five, I would imagine. I haven't looked in a long time, maybe the top 10. But TBS is not the hottest network on cable and you can't really compare tbs on saturday night to smoth to fox on friday night you mean t and t and t i'm sorry t and you can't compare not t and t i'm sorry i you know brain fart there um t and t is a more popular network in large part because of the nba

Starting point is 00:07:09 and the eyeballs that that attracts and they're able to build down throughout the year but i i just don't think you can compare either t and t on a saturday night or five or um tbs to fox it's an unfair comparison number one uh just so you do you mean is established w w i'm sorry go ahead t and t is the uh the fifth as of december 2020 they're the fifth most watched cable network so okay that's that's good but that's not fantastic um I just don't think, you know, WWE's got, is an established, has been for decades,

Starting point is 00:07:51 has an established audience. AEW has got, I think they've cornered the market on hardcore fans that will pretty much, you know, fall in love with anything AEW does. Good for them, much like ECW did, right?

Starting point is 00:08:07 ECW was, they, ECW captured 100% of that portion of the audience that really love that extreme hardcore alternative presentation of wrestling. I think AEW in some respects has done the same thing, but certainly they're not strong enough to compete with WWE. This isn't a criticism.

Starting point is 00:08:34 It's just a reality because they're such a new company. It would be impossible to really compete or compare, compare to WWE and Fox. well i guess what i was saying is you know you're saying it's a it's a hard night to capture an audience and and maybe someone at t and t or turner knows more than you do about how they're going to be able to do that but db is doing it the night before on a friday night and i would argue that being on network versus being on cable matters less and less i understand generations ago people used to have you know over-the-air antennas so they would have rabbit ears way back when and you could pick up those channels but you had to pay for cable i get that but now it feels

Starting point is 00:09:19 like a lot of people have just cut the core completely and they're using things like youtube tv which would give you both fox and t-and-tis i think that matters less and less but the parallels are there for me like i think back to when you were sort of dictated to uh when you were a part of this turner organization and they said okay eric you're doing a thursday thunder show now you've acknowledged boy that was really stressful and put a lot of stress on all the resources in your organization not just personnel but everything and you didn't really want to do it but you had to because that's what the network wanted we don't know the way this is coming out but ultimately we understand that the the key revenue driver now is no longer pay-per-views

Starting point is 00:10:06 it's no longer ticket sales is no longer merch those still matter but it's all television right. So doesn't it stand to reason that Tony Kahn's in a similar circumstance that you were where if the network wants another show, yes, you technically were their employee. I get that. But he's got to sort of keep the cash cow happy. If they need another show, he's kind of got to do it, right? I mean, he's trying to get some more leverage and grow that number. You do that by being a good partner, right? Being a great partner, not a good partner. A great partner is such an important part of the equation, you have to have a great relationship with your television partner, especially, as you pointed out, is now television and rights fees are the key driver.

Starting point is 00:10:54 So yes, if Turner came to Tony Con and said, we absolutely have to have a show, we want another show, we're willing to pay for another show, we believe another show will be beneficial to the network and eventually your brand. So here's what we want you to do and here's what we'll pay you. It would be hard for Tony to walk away from that. Right. It would be hard for me to walk away from it. I might want to, but I understand that.

Starting point is 00:11:22 I understand that he may, because we don't know, do we? We don't know if this is something that's being kind of, I don't say forced, but put upon Tony and Tony's just reacting to it or this is Tony wanting to do another show. We don't know. We're assuming that Turner is mandating this. I don't believe that is the case. But, you know, Tony Kahn once said, and this isn't something, I'm not trying to start shit here,

Starting point is 00:11:51 but Tony Kahn once said early on after the start of AEW, I'm not going to make the same mistakes WCW made. I'm not going to go into the litany of mistakes that have been made and continue to be made by Tony WCW. that are significant, and many of them are similar to some of the mistakes that I made. He's making the same ones. This is another one where if I was Tony and I was looking at the long-term viability of my brand, I would do everything I could to talk Turner out of creating that Saturday night show

Starting point is 00:12:29 if indeed they're pushing it on him. If Tony's stepping up and wanting to do another show for any reason, then I question his judgment because it clearly does not have the resources. And what we've seen in the last couple of days with this, I can only refer to it as a clown car competition regarding CM Punk and the litany of the mistakes that have been made, profound ones too, by the way, that have been made that has created this situation tells me that internally just as a business operation they still don't know what they're doing and and i think that's a challenge it i i i just

Starting point is 00:13:16 and again it's probably because of my own experience with thunder and in the impact that that had on wcw and the bad decision that that was and keep in mind we were hot we were beating wwe at the time right We were outperforming our competition head-to-head. We were generating times of money. We were well into the profit, 30, 40, $50 million a year in profit, depending on who's accounting you want. It was actually more than that. But because of intercompany allocations in the way Turner was structured,

Starting point is 00:13:48 WCWCW can get credit for a lot of the revenue that we created for the Turner organization. But even at the peak, at the height, we were in so many ways strategically and tactically. So far ahead of the game and Thunder really, really, I think was one of the, that was the beginning of the end. People liked when did WCW really? What was the, you know, finger poke a doom, sting not winning the title at Starcade, you know, fans and people that weren't in the business and don't really understand the business beyond what they see on TV or they read on the internet. It's easy to point to those things. But the real fatal mistake was adding thunder. And because I lived through that, I would hope that Tony wouldn't make that mistake again.

Starting point is 00:14:36 But here we are. It is what it is. And look, I hope I'm wrong for the sake of a lot of great talent that have great opportunities in AEW, making good money in AEW. I really hope I'm wrong. I just don't think I am. Well, you know, listen, I often wonder when I hear you because I mean, I think sometimes people discount your take in your opinion because it's not popular and because maybe they're AEW tribalists. And listen, I'm a huge AEW fan and friends with a lot of those folks and count Tony Kahn amongst them.

Starting point is 00:15:18 But I do at least listen when you talk because you're one of the only guys who've been. in this spot like really in this spot even with turner but a few moments ago you were even critical of him having a youtube show and i'm wondering like how is that different from having a syndicated show named prime or pro or worldwide like i understand once upon a time it was all about Saturday night but then it was about Saturday night and Nitro but that's just part of the equation you still had these other weekend syndicated shows, the power hour and all that sort of thing, isn't that kind of the same thing? Like you're trying to just get eyeballs out there on the product.

Starting point is 00:16:00 And if you've got all this talent on the roster and YouTube now is a global property, so it's not something that you could only see domestic or you got a bicycle tapes here there, aren't you just leaning into a more modern version of the syndicated show, except now it's global and on demand? A couple things. number one, those syndicated shows created revenue for Turner. And they existed long, not a lot, but they did. Those shows existed long before I arrived in WCW.

Starting point is 00:16:32 Right. I didn't, I didn't endeavor to add programming to WCW. I didn't even my idea to add nitro, by the way. Truth be known, well established, well documented. That was a Ted Turner idea, not an Eric Bischoff idea. I was trying to reduce the amount of content that we were producing, like I was trying to reduce live shows or live events, for example, for the same reason.

Starting point is 00:16:58 I wanted WCW's core product to be successful and have the production values and the creative necessary to become profitable. The difference is Tony is, this is proactive on Tony's part, at least the YouTube shows are. again, we don't know situation with. I mean, Rampage was, I think, a Tony Kahn idea that was a result of the move from TNT to TBS with dynamite that was part of, and Tony told me this in his own words, that was Tony's response to, we're going to have to move you to TBS.

Starting point is 00:17:38 Well, okay, if you do that, can we get another show on TNT? I don't know what the details of the negotiation sounded like, but it was a minute and a half conversation I had with Tony at one point. That was a Tony Con decision. That was a Tony Con strategy. The difference is, the point is, it's not a difference. The point is, Tony needs to establish AEW to begin a growth pattern in AEW, to create a demand with that growing audience for additional programming. I don't know that he's created that demand. The AEW product as a television product, I don't want to hear about Wembley. That's a one-off. That's outside this conversation. The television product is, it is what it is. It hasn't seen growth in forever.

Starting point is 00:18:36 They've got a solid, solid 850,000 viewers a week. Now, you can argue, yeah, but TBS. If they weren't happy with it, they wouldn't have expanded the program. This is true. It's a vote of confidence for Tony. Whether he wanted that Saturday night show or Turner wanted that Saturday night show, it doesn't freaking matter. It's a vote of confidence from the network. We'll see if ultimately it has a positive or negative impact on a AW. But going back to the point, Tony is, it was Tony's strategy to embrace YouTube before, in my opinion, he really had his feet firmly on the ground when it came to the creative or when it came to his infrastructure.

Starting point is 00:19:28 You can't, I don't think you can really compare him. I mean, we had, look, we had WCW Saturday night. We had WCW main event on Sunday night. Right. on TBS so we had two shows on cable and we had probably three or four of them in syndication those all existed before I got there well I just uh I understand that you and I both share a growth mentality in our approach to business and things like that but I mean even last week with all the NBA playoffs and all the NHL playoffs AW was still top 10 I think they came in number

Starting point is 00:20:08 nine on that Wednesday. And that was some really stiff sports competition. I mean, there were three NBA shows and two NHL shows ahead of it. And then that CNN town hall with Trump. And I'm just saying, I don't think it's nearly as doom and gloom as you do. I'm much more optimistic. And I think it's, if anything, this does solve at least one of the problems that you and I have identified along with, well, everyone else that boy, there, there sure is a lot of talent on this roster and there's only so much TV time to go around now perhaps this is an opportunity to showcase some more of that talent because he's got a hefty roster and and now maybe this represents more opportunity for some of those folks who felt a little frustrated

Starting point is 00:20:55 with their spot if you will that's got to be a net positive right no okay but potentially yes but what have we seen audit that because that puts a lot of pressure on EW creative. It's just because you put someone on TV doesn't mean they're going to get over clearly. Just because you give somebody an opportunity on television doesn't mean that it's going to work for anybody. So having a roster, again, one of the mistakes that I made that Tony has decided to replicate, having that many people on your roster in feeling the need to, well, I've got to come up with

Starting point is 00:21:32 another television show to get these people on television. I'm sure that wasn't like the driving. Right. But to say, well, you know, I've got all this talent. Now I've got an opportunity to showcase them on TV. Showcase them in what? Showcase them on a pretty tough night on a Saturday night, arguably industry-wide.

Starting point is 00:21:51 That's accepted. It's just a tough night. But have we seen any creative at all really consistently out of AEW that would suggest that this is an opportunity where talent is going to get a shot and AEW creative is going to do something that elevates them, or are we just going to expose them in bad story and poor production and, you know, kind of same old, same old, same old that we've been seeing on YouTube and, frankly, dynamite. I know it's unpopular because there's a lot of fans out there that love it, but I think for the most part, AEW dynamite is very indie-rific.

Starting point is 00:22:28 And if that's your thing and you love that indie-rific style and presentation, then you're going to be, You love that show, but it's not going to grow beyond that core audience that they control. They've got a great handle on 850 some on thousand people that are into that indie-rific presentation. And that's what it is. And just seeing more of the same thing isn't going to get that talent over. They don't get them on TV. They'll be able to tell them family and friends and text their buddies from high school. Say, hey, check me out.

Starting point is 00:23:01 I'm on TV. That's all fun. but it doesn't mean they're going to get over. In fact, it could go the other way. There's two ways of killing talent. One is to not expose them enough and the other is to overexpose them. Those are two really great ways of killing off careers.

Starting point is 00:23:20 And if I'm an AEW talent, I'm going to be excited on one hand because now maybe I'm going to get an opportunity to be on television and prove what I'm capable of. But on the other hand, from a business perspective, if I'm getting that opportunity and I ship the bed, either because the creative isn't right or nobody's watching television,

Starting point is 00:23:39 now I'm stuck with that stink. Now that stink's going to follow me around. So I don't know, man. And I'm not doom and gloom. Don't get me wrong. I'm just a realist for every action. Well, I'm but I'm being honest. I'm not doom and gloom.

Starting point is 00:23:59 I have not seen anything out of AEW. that suggests to me that there is a really great creative brain trust, quite the opposite. Why aren't we talking about creative? Who gives a shit? Because creative is what's going to determine in a large part, is going to determine whether or not this Saturday Night Show is a good thing or bad thing. Yeah, but come on now, Eric, come on now. You're just wanting to be, you're just wanting to be argumentative today. No, I'm not. I actually, I actually am not. It's quite the opposite because every

Starting point is 00:24:32 time I'm trying to offer an alternative perspective. And it's like every time we talk about Tony Connor or the tapeworm, it's like, oh, Eric Bischoff is obsessed. He's, he's jealous because Tony didn't hire him. Are you fucking kidding me? I wouldn't go near AEW for any amount of, well, that's not true. I am a whore at heart. But any reasonable amount of money, I wouldn't go near that place right now. I wouldn't want to be, I wouldn't want to even be in the same zip code because then all the dysfunction that you're seeing to now like on a daily basis that's making headlines would all be attributed to me I just no thank you I've been there you know I went to T&A once and the entire world thought that I was making every

Starting point is 00:25:20 business and talent decision within TNA and creative and that wasn't the case no I wouldn't go near TBI Tony Con or AEW right now I think it's a mess I but that's just me. I don't want to, I didn't bring this up. I didn't ask myself this question. I'm just responding to it. And I try to be honest. I try to be, I try to have some grace. I understand that Tony is going through growing pains. And I identify with that. I have a lot of empathy for Tony that sometimes I don't express here because I know the kind of pressure he's under. And, and I feel for him in that regard. But I'm just honest about this. Having lived through it, as you pointed out, name me one person you know that has been in a situation that is even remotely as parallel

Starting point is 00:26:10 as this one. Name me one person you know that was in the position I was in and grew that brand and competed directly with WWE and stumbled and fell and messed some shit up with some bad decisions along the way. You can't find anybody else. And when I'm asked a question, I give an honest answer. I don't give a political answer. I don't give a kissing Tony's ass answer. I give an honest objective answer. And people who like you think I have an axe to grind or I'm just being doom and gloom aren't really seeing the point. No, you have a hard on for Tony Con. And it's not because of Blue Chew. But if you do want one, Blue Chew can hook you up. It's a unique online service that delivers the same active ingredients as Viagra, Cialis, and Lovietra, but it's

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Starting point is 00:28:02 So Eric, come home. Hey, it, Cameron, before we forget, because we spend a half hour talking about this nonsense. Oh, I'm not doing it. By the way, Keith Morrison, who's a part of the Ad Free Show's family, thank you so much for joining us this morning. All of you, Coach Rosie, Eddie Prey there, so many of you, Bobby, keelofoxra 5 golf tango x-ray thank you for joining us this morning but Keith Keith says I love you Eric but I think these answers are too personal and thinking way too

Starting point is 00:28:28 much about AEW I don't think about AEW unless I'm asked a question Keith that is my point you were proving my point I didn't ask myself to comment on the recent developments of AEW I was asked that question and I'm asked frequently when I do interviews or I'm a guest on someone else's podcast. And I will continue to answer them as honestly as I can and objectively as I can. It's not personal for me. I don't care. Whatever happens in AEW, whether it's the greatest thing in the world and they have incredible success or whether they don't is not going to affect my life one way or the other. It is not personal. The only time it becomes personal for me is when Tony, and he hasn't done it in a long time.

Starting point is 00:29:14 Let's be honest and fair about that. Don't he hasn't made too many stupid comments about WCW or Bischoff and not making the same mistakes or trying to convince people that AEW is in the same position that WCW with Nitro was in 1996. He's not saying stupid shit like that anymore. He's really not. That's the only time it would become personal for me. The rest of it is just an observation from somebody that's been there,

Starting point is 00:29:38 done that respectfully Eric you're talking like a fan today these guys got a new television deal which we all assume is for a new guaranteed television rights deal that's something that almost every wrestling promoter in the world would cut their pinky off for and you had an opportunity here today to say hey man congratulations but now the real work starts it was a real for me trying to do nitro and thunder and you've already got rampage it's going to be a lot to juggle he might need some more support staff but hey he secured the bag instead you said well but the creative dude we're talking about business and you're talking about creative that's some silly are you going to tell me they're not related yes they're not related is the creative

Starting point is 00:30:33 oh my god great workers eric you're on television you're going to go out of business am i allowed to talk this fucking show at all. I said, welcome to 83 weeks and you vomited for 30 minutes. Can I have two minutes? No, you ask me a question. And then you just keep on and on and on like one of those goddamn toys where you can pull the string in the back, but yours is in the front and you just keep pulling. Can I talk? I'm here to enlighten not to give fucking pep talks and accolades and be a prop and a promotional. It's not about being a promotional opportunity. I'm here to give an observation based on experience. That's it. That's it. That's it. I'll keep my, I'll keep my, I'll keep my responses shorter and succinct.

Starting point is 00:31:13 No. Congratulations, Tony. I'm not asking you to do that. Listen, the idea is, you know like I know, uh, 15 years ago, I don't know the timeline. Let's just guess whenever it was 15 years ago, what have you, if one of these organizations approached you and said, hey, we're going to give you a boatload of cash and you got to go do a show on Saturday, figure it out. You would have done it.

Starting point is 00:31:38 I did do it, and I'm sorry for it because it was a mistake, and that's my point. Well, here's my question, though. What could they have done this week that you would have praised? Is there any way anything they could have done this week? Or you said, damn, they had a home run with that. What night would have been a better night, Eric? What terms would have been better? Who should have been on the fucking poster?

Starting point is 00:31:59 You're on here talking about, well, see and punk clown show, based on what? A report you read on a pay-per-click website? You don't know what really happened? you're the guy who rails anytime I quote the observer now you're buying into that and saying well with what happened this week you don't know what are we talking about this is a net positive they got a lot of money for wrestling it's good for all the wrestling and okay okay it's good for all of wrestling it's just such a that is a fanboy response kind you think impact wouldn't want that it it is not good for all of wrestling to to fail at an opportunity. How have they failed? They haven't even started. Exactly.

Starting point is 00:32:43 And keep in mind, because you tend to forget, like a lot of wrestling fans that grew up on the tapeworms pig shit dirt site, the, I did come out. I congratulated Tony. On this episode, go back and listen. I congratulated Tony. It's a great opportunity for Tony. I'm hoping for Tony and AW.

Starting point is 00:33:07 you and the roster that it is successful. And it might be. I think I said somewhere along the line in this conversation, let's wait and see. We'll find out. Hopefully I'm wrong. What is negative about that? And to suggest that creative,

Starting point is 00:33:23 we shouldn't be talking about creative as it relates to a new show. Oh my God, Eric, you haven't even seen the creative yet. You know they just hired a new cat to help back there. You don't know what he can do. But they made a big hubbleau about it. Have we seen anything yet? The show is a month away.

Starting point is 00:33:44 Have we seen anything in dynamite? Have we seen anything in dynamite consistently? Not some hot angle or guys bleeding all these over each other and some fucking a wacko, you know, hardcore match. Have we seen any consistent story? Not like fan boy storytelling. I mean legitimate storytelling that's growing the audience because that's what happens when you come up with great creative.

Starting point is 00:34:07 your audience grows. It doesn't decline. And I have not seen a thing in AEW. Hell, the graphics they used to announce this new show was a direct rip-off of Nitro. If that's an example of the creative brain trust that's behind this strategy, whether it's a combination of Turner and Tony Conn or Turner by themselves or Tony by themselves, that very decision to use that graphic, yeah, flattering as it may be, because imitation is the most sincere form of flattery, and I am indeed flattered in some respects, but it certainly

Starting point is 00:34:46 doesn't suggest to me that there's anything new coming out of this. It's going to be more of the same. And frankly, I think what is currently the same is indie-rific and doesn't show any real opportunity for the world. I'm so glad you said it again. Could you go ahead and name all the promotions that you believe that are running today that are not indie rific go ahead no i can't there are none there it's independent wrestling with television it's it's it's three steps up from backyard wrestling in some respects said differently if it ain't wwee it's indie rific until somebody else comes along and finds a different a new way to present the product something that's fresh that we haven't seen a thousand times before that's produced on a large scale

Starting point is 00:35:40 with high production values that has consistently as consistent as you can be in 52 weeks a year of programming consistently good creative that indicates there's a team there that actually knows what they're doing and are not just throwing pig shit up against the wall and opening it sticks yeah that is a function if somebody comes along and does it absolutely that there's ever in the history of ever been 52 week consistent good creative no there's not as well and that's what any promotion as good as it can be with a 52 week schedule i'm just saying it's not going to be great 52 weeks a year but you can have moments you can have a couple weeks or a couple months that really establishes great story and great character i haven't seen that out of dynamite i haven't

Starting point is 00:36:27 seen you take a real objective view on a w in a long time and i don't understand why that is if they sell that motherfucking Wembley stadium out, you're going to come on here the next week and say, well, it was a bad finish.

Starting point is 00:36:39 I wouldn't have done that. If you're full of shit, absolutely not. Yeah. I have done nothing but put over Wembley. I'm not arguing that, but I'm saying you specifically

Starting point is 00:36:50 point fingers out, well, they used to say the way we screwed the finish at Star K-97 with Sting, we were dead. But did you see how many people were in the Georgia dump?

Starting point is 00:37:01 Da-da-da-da. There's the business in the creative and you just conflate them you just want to change the narrative you are captain goalpost mover that's what you do on this show every single Monday you just move the goalpost again yeah they did this but they can't do that

Starting point is 00:37:14 okay they might have done this but they won't do that they got another freaking TV show on T&T like you don't think G I congratulated him for the for God's sake how many times do we have to go back and listen to it together do you want me to post video receipts on social media I would love for you to do that I put them

Starting point is 00:37:30 over and said congratulations I have multiple times and multiple interviews on this show and on others. I think it is a vote of confidence. It is a good thing. But there is a challenge that comes with it. And so far, what I've seen out of AEW as a whole is that in terms of their infrastructure, their operational capabilities and the depth of their operational roster, people that really know what they're doing suggest to me that, yes,

Starting point is 00:37:58 while this is a great opportunity, and I applaud Tony for having relationship with TBS and Turner that has provided this opportunity. That's all great. But with every great opportunity, there is a challenge. And so far what I've seen out of AEW, organizationally, operationally and creatively, they're not ready for this opportunity. And it could, much like Thunder did, have an adverse impact.

Starting point is 00:38:24 We will find out. I may be wrong. I'll say it again. I hope I am. Unfortunately, my track record, in terms of predicting things like this is pretty good. And I'm not 100% confident that this is a great idea for Tony. Not because of anything but timing.

Starting point is 00:38:43 And the CM Punk thing, that's an organizational issue. It's not a creative issue. And it's not just, you know, listening to Dirtcheys. There have been Brandon Thurston published the press release, I believe it was the press release, that was going to announce CM Punk only, and he has a copy of it,

Starting point is 00:39:07 it's online, you can see it from TBS, I believe, or from T&T. I believe that that decision to bring punk back to build a show around him or just to involve him in that show was a mistake if they had not

Starting point is 00:39:22 previously cleared up all the other Michigas that was going on and crazy shit. And the legal issues that were outstanding. This is a guy that I honestly I don't want to talk about this is a guy who tore his bicep and has been off injured and they found a way to keep his name in the

Starting point is 00:39:40 headlines. And if he shows up on one of these other shows and you got fucking worked, you're going to look like a goof out here talking about creative. The show has never. Well, see. And you know what? I'll be happy. The show has never aired.

Starting point is 00:39:54 I just don't understand how we jump to all these conclusions about this guy's not on that show. He's not on this show. That was created. him there was we've never no one from turner has ever said boy we gave tony all we gave tony all this cash because we thought we were getting cm punk and now we can't get him to the table that's never been said that's not what i'm saying you're putting my words of my mouth you're jumping to that conclusion though what i'm saying is that the the premiere the announcement of this show

Starting point is 00:40:21 was to include cm punk and now it doesn't and tbs or turner had to come out and actually send out a press release saying seen punk is not affiliated with the new show you're going to tell me that that that's good business that's a reflection of some great strategic thing why would you make the announcement in a press release instead of having him show up this weekend at the paper review i'm not i'm not arguing that if i would have if it would have been me i would have resolved any outstanding issues i had with cm punk i would have cleared all of that up you don't know that they haven't i don't know that they haven't. Here's what I do know. I do know that TBS had to put out a press release saying

Starting point is 00:41:04 CM Punk is not affiliated with with collision. Why would they do that? It's creative because he might be on the TNT show. He might show up this weekend. You know what? If that is the case, if that is the case, I will on the next episode or whenever that, June 17th, I think is the premiere date, if that happens and if this is all some complex, very creative, layered, strategic, creative effort on behalf of TBS, since they're going to put out press releases on their network letterhead to convince their audience that S&Punk may not be a part of the show, and that's all part of a plan,

Starting point is 00:41:49 I will be the first and the loudest person to applaud, whether it works or not. At least there's some creative and strategic thinking there. but if that's not the case and based on everything that we've seen out of AEW so far I would not bet any money that that is the case but if I'm wrong I'll shit I'll I'll sing Tony's praises as well as to turners but I just don't think that's the case so I think let's make a bet if Tony con if CM Punk is on the pay per view this weekend or he's on the June 17th collision.

Starting point is 00:42:23 Will you shave your head on this program with a Henson razor? While you're thinking about it, let me just tell you, if he does, he'll get the best shave of his life. I know that for a fact. I believe in Henson shaving. It's one of my absolute favorite sponsors we've ever had on the program. It's going to be a part of my life forever. I have one in my travel bag right now.

Starting point is 00:42:45 I have one at the office. I have one here at the house. I even got my barber. And think about that. She's been shaving dudes for, ever and ever and now she does it with a hinson shaving you got to meet hinson shaving now here's what makes them different they're family owned you know i dig that but they're an aerospace parts manufacturer that's made parts for the international space station and the mars rover and now they're

Starting point is 00:43:05 bringing that same precision engineering to your face you see what they're doing is they're using aerospace grade c and c machines to make metal razors that extend just 0.0013 inches which is less than the thickness of a human hair that means a secure and stable blade that gives you a vibration-free shave and it gets better. This razor has built-in channels to evacuate hair and cream, and that makes clogging virtually impossible. What I respect most about Henson's shaving is these cats wanted to make the best razor, not the best razor business. That means no plastic, no subscriptions, no proprietary blades, and no planned obsolescence. Now, let me give you the heads up. Henson razor uses a standard dual-edged blade like your

Starting point is 00:43:48 grandfather used to use. That has an old school feel that you're going to love. But it has the benefits of the new school tech. You see, Pop Pop never heard of a razor that was less thick than a human hair. And not only that, what I love most about this product is usually when something is better. Well, it costs more. We all know that, right? But not only is this better than what you've been doing. Hinson razor is also cheaper. You see, it's only $3 to $5 to replace the blades. Not $3 to $5 a week, not $3 to $5 a month, not $3 to $5 a quarter, $3 to $5 a year. It's time to say no to subscriptions and say yes to a razor that will last you a lifetime. Visit hensonshaving.com slash 83 weeks to pick the razor for you and use code 83 weeks

Starting point is 00:44:34 and you'll get two years worth of blades for free with your razor. Just be sure to add them to your cart. That's 100 free blades when you head to H-E-N-S-O-N-S-H-A-V-N-G.com. slash 83 weeks and use the promo code 83 weeks and Eric I got a real life example I want to tell you about a listener of the show actually tweeted me not too long ago to sort of complain about the Henson razor and he said he showed his face and he tagged Henson and he said I hate your razor this is unacceptable and then he tagged me and said hey Conrad I bought this on your recommendation now I'm regretting it and I responded

Starting point is 00:45:17 dude, I love mine. What don't you like? Are you using it the right way? Do you have the blade in and all that right? I've put over a hundred folks on this and always hear rave reviews back. I'm legit curious why you don't love yours. And he says, it cuts my face like raw hamburger. And now I've got to pay for postage to send it back. And I said, man, no disrespect. This is user error. How else has everyone else, myself included, had such great results? Are you putting the bottom of the razor on upside down? And he replied, and he said, I don't think so. I just followed the instructions on the box, and that's what's happened. I'd love it if it works if you said or how it does, but it doesn't. And then he tried it, exactly what I suggested. And he wrote, holy rainbow socks, Batman, you were exactly right. I tried it your way and I had it in upside down. The first shave the right way felt amazing.

Starting point is 00:46:13 Therefore, I bestow upon you the title of His Excellency, the Lord Chancellor, are the exalted eminence of hinson shaving it's a fantastic product i'm arguing about it on social media the only way you don't have the best shave of your life is user error but it is a razor be careful y'all follow the instructions and you will love it we're turning those frowns upside down you're going to be the smoothest cat all around town henson shaving dot com slash 83 weeks use the code 83 weeks i love this razor more than eric bischoff hates tony con And you know from listening to this show, that's a lot. It's Hinsonshaving.com slash 83 weeks.

Starting point is 00:46:54 You, you are perpetuating the myth that I hear on the facts. The same facts, yeah. It's not a fact. I don't know where it comes from either. Here's what we'll do. We'll go back to your bet. I'll take you up. Oh.

Starting point is 00:47:09 As long as if I'm right, you do the same. I was trying to transition to a spot. Do you want to start handing on the transitions? No, no, no, no. I take stuff personally like this. I'm committed to my beliefs in the things that I say. I stand behind them. All right.

Starting point is 00:47:23 Fuck it. I'll shave. All right. Now, here's a deal. Either one of us shaving our heads on camera live is not great video, right? It takes too much time. But what I will do is if I lose this bet, I will shave my head with a Hansen razor. Mrs. B will take video of it.

Starting point is 00:47:46 and we'll post that or clips of it and you will do the same and yeah let's let's do it and i'll show up on this show with a shaved head if if you're right and i'm wrong i'll you're gonna look like lex luther in this motherfucker and i'm ready for i just wear a fucking hat man it's not that big a deal my hair grows fast it's just hair i i am uh listen we're we're we're kidding around and having some fun about when seeing it's gonna be back well here's the thing i bet everything i got that dudes at all in. There ain't no chance he's not there. He's going to be a part of it. But it doesn't make sense to spoil the return in a doggone press release. If wrestling was handled the way it is now back in 1996. And there's all this speculation about who is the third man. And TBS or TNT put

Starting point is 00:48:37 out something that says, no, Hulk Hogan's not affiliated with the NWO, these outsiders, blah, blah, blah. That's nonsense. Come on now. Let's just have a little patient. and see how it plays out. I'm a big fan of that. I'm a big fan of that. And I try not to predict failure. I do predict challenges along the way. I do recognize patterns along the way.

Starting point is 00:48:59 And if it weren't for all of the craziness surrounding punk and the things that have gone on and the lawsuits and the threats of it and the internal drama, if it weren't for all that, I would be like you. And I would believe that this is just this is good creative. this I'm a half. I'm a glass half full guy when it comes to this kind of stuff most of the time. But when you see the patterns that we've watched over the last, especially over the last year, um, I'm hoping that you're right. I just don't believe it. All's I'm saying is everybody got served up this week when it would be akin to Hulk Hogan's not coming to work

Starting point is 00:49:40 and that's we give Jimmy Hart a raise. Come on now. Let's, you know how much money is on the table? let's just let's have a little patience and figure it out i'm i'm down with you on that i hope i hope congratulate tony and the team i'll say it one last time and then we're going to switch gears here i hope i could i like yelling at you let's just yeah fuck the horseman let's just yell at each other for the rest of the show that's fun for me it's actually fun for me too oh i know listen this is it's not like you and i get to log off and then go pick a fight with the wife about hey supper wasn't so good last night You know, what are we going to do?

Starting point is 00:50:17 So this is our outlet. Serious business, we're having a lot of fun. You know, one thing we can all agree on is that the horsemen are the original great faction in wrestling. Now, of course, we can debate. And certainly Mick Foley has debated recently on his podcast, what is the most important faction of all time? He would contend it was the bloodline.

Starting point is 00:50:38 I thought that was maybe premature. Fans agreed. NWO came in first. DX came in second. but there's always a first and I think one of the first great factions in wrestling was the four horsemen go ahead debunk that you're just in a mood to argue today why are you so negative I'm just I'm just ready for if I'm throwing a fastball it should have been a curve if I'm throwing a curve ball it should have been a slider so I'm

Starting point is 00:51:08 just teeing it up that way I'm just ready for you to show me I'm wrong and you're just being negative. You're setting up a negative conversation. So here's, let me just answer it. Let me solve the issue here. I agree with you. I think the horsemen were one of the first great stables, if you will, I hate the term or stable, but it's appropriate here because they're horses, right? Right. Cal. Yeah. Why not? I absolutely agree with you. There's no question about it. It never has been in my mind. I've always recognized, well, not always because I didn't even really hear about the four horsemen until I got to WCW. Right.

Starting point is 00:51:47 Because it's not, for no other reason than it was, you know, the late 80s, early 90s, and I didn't watch TV. W.A. or Crockett promotions. I didn't have access to it. So until I got to WCW, I had never heard of the four horseman. But once I got there and learned and had an opportunity to work with Rick and Arne and some of the other people that were at one point or not Barry Windham at one point or another part of the four horsemen. I began to understand it. And yes, you'd go back and look at history and time,

Starting point is 00:52:20 and particularly in their era, no question about it. Can't think of another stable that would even come close to the forehusband at that time. I'm not, I'm not asking this to argue because I just want to understand. We all, I shouldn't say we all, a lot of us listening to this have fallen in and out of love with wrestling. I was a super fan from 88 to late 92 and then took a break and then fell back in love in 96 till maybe sometime in 2005 and then took a break. And now as you can tell, I'm just way too

Starting point is 00:52:52 deep. But I'm wondering you weren't really watching wrestling on television in 85, 86, right? No, I was. I just wasn't watching the same wrestling you were watching, but I wasn't watching at all. I'm just saying they were the most watched program in the country outside of Saturday night's main event because the ratings

Starting point is 00:53:11 for TBS, 6,000, 605, Saturday night, that outpaced Tuesday night Titans from WWF, that outpaced primetime wrestling and all the American wrestling, more people were watching TBS than those because they were the first super station. They just had more access. They were in more homes than, say, a USA network at the time. So just by nature of that, while the WWF was certainly the more pop culture and quote unquote in thing, it was the hip thing, if you will, more.

Starting point is 00:53:44 people were watching this because it was on a better station. And so when you come on the program and say, I didn't have access to it. I'm just wondering, what were you watching if you weren't watching this? And was that on like a local station that you could get with rabbit ears or whatever? No.

Starting point is 00:53:59 We had cable, but TBS was not part of our cable package. Okay. If you go back and look at TBS, because we had a limited, a very limited cable package, by the way. But if you go back and look at TBS, their footprint, well, everything you said is true.

Starting point is 00:54:19 First, Superstation, there's a lot of things that you said that are absolutely true. But it's not completely true because there were pockets in the country where TBS, while it even may have been available, nobody watched it. Right. It was predominantly a southeastern footprint for a long time. Even with the launch of Nitro, one of the challenges that we had was even TNT, TNT, as successful as TNT was and broad as it was, didn't have a lot of the penetration. Was it available?

Starting point is 00:54:51 And that's where people get a little messed up sometimes. Just because something is available doesn't mean people watch it. There's a lot of things that are available on my 385 channels that I don't watch. And TBS in the market that Minneapolis that I lived in was just not something people tuned into. Southeast, yes. And there were some parts of the country where it did. What I'm saying is it, whether it was available and I never discovered it because I'd never heard of it and wasn't interested in the Braves or any of the other, Andy Mayberry or even WCW early on, I wasn't aware of it.

Starting point is 00:55:29 It just wasn't on my radar, nor was it on the radar most people have the hardcore wrestling fans. Yeah, maybe Wade Keller was into it. You know, he was writing about wrestling and following it. I'm sure there were fans in that market that were. In fact, I think AWA promoted in the Minneapolis market. It just wasn't on my radar. That's all. That's why I didn't hear about the four horseman until I really kind of got embedded into

Starting point is 00:55:53 WCW to learn the culture and where it came from. We should remind everybody that this original OG version of the group, man, it does feel a little bit like the NWO did once upon a time. Of course, we're talking about from a championship perspective. Rick Flair was your world champion, much like Hollywood Hogan was. later. And Tully Blanchard was your TV champion, much like they had a variety of U.S. champions in the NWO or whether it's six for the cruiserweight title. And then only and Arne are the tag team champs, just like the outsiders. So I really like, you know,

Starting point is 00:56:31 the idea of creating a dominant stable and there's maybe no better way to signify and solidify their dominance than to make them all champions, right? I mean, that, that, that, especially in this era because the idea is you wanted heel champions and the baby face is chasing so it could always be on the live events so-and-so is getting a title shot, you know, whoever your new hot baby face is. And I think that's one of the reasons that the NWO worked. And of course, the NWO was a stable with a twist because we made them cool and they weren't just bad guys.

Starting point is 00:57:03 But you could even argue, maybe perhaps, that the four horsemen were trying to be cool because if you watch some of those old TBS shows, you'll see kids in the front row or adolescence, young men dressing up in suits and holding up the four fingers, it's interesting to see how that dynamic has evolved over time. I agree. I'm not sure how to comment on that. It is interesting. And again, there's this feeling.

Starting point is 00:57:34 And it's like your conversation with Mick Foley, you know, asking Mick, what he thinks the most influential faction of all time was. his pick was the bloodline. I guess, well, he could be right. I'm not seeing that now. I mean, I think the bloodline in its story, and I was one of the biggest, at least vocally, podcast. I was one of the biggest fans of it. I put, I sent texts to the people involved and congratulated them and I was generally enthusiastic about it. But it's kind of at this point, it was a big buildup and we had WrestleMania and we'll have to see where that goes. but did it change the industry? Are we seeing bloodline merchandise, you know, in non-wrestling environments? Maybe we are. I'm not, but, you know, I live in the middle of nowhere, Wyoming, so it's understandable. But I just think it's a little early.

Starting point is 00:58:30 But everybody has a particular opinion based on what they like and they dislike. I think the four horsemen, they were first. They were long before the NWL. I think your point about the heel champion. and the parallels between some of the members of the NWO are right on the money. I think the reason the NWO, in the eyes of the fans and the people that vote on silly things like this, I think the reason the NWO is arguably the most successful faction, at least at this point of all time, was because it changed, it actually changed the industry.

Starting point is 00:59:11 it wasn't a marketing point. And a lot of it has to do with timing. Yeah. And in all of the circumstances that surrounded the launch of NWO was very freaking unique. And that's and it's it's had a lasting impact. Have we seen yet to date other than the bloodline? And I think the jury's still out on that. Anything that comes close to the overall impact that the NWO.

Starting point is 00:59:41 has had on wrestling and television. I don't think so. I'll tell you what. I don't think it's even close that the NWO is number one. And the reason why throw that graphic up against Silva of the NWO is the t-shirt. And I know that that sounds really, really silly and a lot of people will think I'm trying to be argumentative or funny. But I mean it legitimately. There's not a cooler t-shirt in wrestling history. Now, you could argue Austin 316. I'll give you that. But that's not a faction the four horsemen didn't have a shirt like this today the bloodline didn't have don't have a shirt like this and the dx shirt was just not as cool as this i mean yet had the degeneration x logo on the front but then it said suck it on the back and and that's kind of lame this is a cool

Starting point is 01:00:24 shirt then now forever and the thing that separates it above all yes it did change because you did an invasion angle that was great creative high five on that you turned the biggest superstar in the history of wrestling into a bad guy that's never happened before that was awesome high five for that you made them super cool high five for that but really most of all man just to show that brand support and that loyalty and it's not like hey i like that guy so i'm going to buy that shirt it's hey this is a fucking cool shirt i mean to the point where these they we see people on the runway so i mean like fashion shows they're rocking n wos shirts like that's never happened for dx or the horseman or the bloodline and i don't think it ever will

Starting point is 01:01:12 that's what makes the nw the number one all time in my opinion as silly as it sounds that freaking t-shirt dude what a boom that was i think the t-shirt was the the logo yeah the imagery the all of the and i agree with you i don't know that i agree with you 100 percent. I think the logo, the merchandise was a reflection of the attitude and the character of NWO as a whole, not of any one individual, but as a whole. It was anarchy. It was, let's turn this shit upside down. It was deep down inside everything that people wanted to be. Everybody wanted to be able to tell their boss, to bite it right everybody wanted to deep down inside it was just it was a cultural thing as

Starting point is 01:02:07 much as it was a wrestling angle it just tapped into a psyche and again not by design i was i didn't sit in the room i think people have this deep down inside they you know they really want to be like this character i didn't think that it just became obvious after a point but again it was timing i think the logo is a big part of it but the logo was a reflection of an attitude that was the NWO as a whole, not anyone individual. And you can look, I've said it before. I'm not going to beat it up. You can wear that T-shirt out anywhere.

Starting point is 01:02:39 It's like going to a NASCAR event, folks. If you're going to a NASCAR event, you're wearing your favorite drivers of merchandise and you got the hat on, the T-shirt on, your cooler's got logos all over it. You fit right in. You're cool. Everybody, you know, boom, part of the family, right? NASCAR fan family. But if you wear that same merchandise out anywhere,

Starting point is 01:03:00 into a restaurant, you're going to look like a geek. And that's part of the problem with wrestling merchandise today. It really hasn't changed much. It's also talent image intensive. And if you're an 18 to 49 year old guy and you're going out to have a cocktail hang out with your friends and maybe meet somebody new, you're not going to wear wrestling merchandise out because you stand out. I mean, you don't, you're not going to do that.

Starting point is 01:03:31 You know why you're not going to do that. But the NWO merchandise, like if you're a wrestling fan, you're part of the wrestling family, a fan family. But if you're not a wrestling fan, you see that NWO shirt, you don't think the person wearing it's a geek, because you don't really relate to it. You don't know what it is. It's just a cool, simple black and white design.

Starting point is 01:03:51 Well, and what's cool about it to me is even when the creative for the NWO wasn't maybe what it once was. when the wheel started to come off and it's just not as cool and it's not as hot the shirt was still cool it's still cool uh of course we're talking about the horsemen today and they were on fire in late 85 and certainly 86 was the biggest year in crockett's uh run 87 the wheel started to come off a little bit but not because of the creative for the horseman although the folks participating in the horseman did change it's the only move out and then we would see some other cats come in like Lex Lugar and Barry Windham. So it just continued to evolve much like a lot of other factions, whether it was DX or certainly

Starting point is 01:04:38 the NWO. But it really sort of disbands for a bit when Rick comes to an impasse with WCW and he's out of there. He's going to leave guys like Arne behind and I guess actually you know, it really wasn't the same

Starting point is 01:04:54 when Arne and Tully left for the WWF. I mean, we talk about this lot sometimes and whereas we're talking about old WCW stuff, but as much as the horsemen were a Rick Flair property, they were in Arne Anderson property too. I mean, that's sort of, I think when people think about the NWO, they usually say Hogan, Hall, and Nash and yourself and Waltman, but I think a lot of people consider the, the pillars like the first two guys, right? So it's Hall and Nash in that order. It feels like with the horseman, if Arn't it in there and if Flare isn't there, and if Flare isn't there.

Starting point is 01:05:28 It's just not the same. You agree with that? No, I couldn't agree with you anymore. I couldn't agree with you anymore. And that's part of the, that's another parallel, right? I think part of the success, and again, I wasn't there and I wasn't watching. So this is just, you know, obviously hindsight. But looking at it today, I think Rick Flair and Arne Anderson had that buddy cop chemistry

Starting point is 01:05:54 that individually, Yes, they were successful. They were powerful. They had great value, particularly Rick, just because of the way he was positioned. But that combination of Rick Flair and Arn Anderson, not taking away from Tully or even only Anderson, but Rick Flair and Arne Anderson brought the believability, credibility, and legitimacy to it. If you would have taken Rick out of the equation and tried to launch a four horseman, I don't think we'd be talking about it today,

Starting point is 01:06:29 the original four horsemen. If Arn would not have been in that equation, I don't think we would have talked about it. Not because Rick didn't have great value, but that combination of Rick Flair and Arne Anderson, to me, is what made everything else work. And without it,

Starting point is 01:06:48 you take one of those components out of it, you're going to lose a lot of value, brand value. Hey, Silver, I throw that photo up of the horse, in the cul-de-sac again. Rick, you ever, I mean, Eric, you ever sport some of those nut huggers that you see Tully and

Starting point is 01:07:05 Arn wearing there? You know, I wasn't even going to point that out. I was just going to let that go. Well, let me just say, if you're listening to this, at the Arn Show on Twitter, whatever you do, don't start spamming that photo to Arn. He doesn't like the nut hugger photo. Oh, I may have said too much.

Starting point is 01:07:24 Don't let everybody know that you've seen. seen it and you like those shorts and maybe he should wear him on dynamite don't do that whatever you do mr silver could we put that up once again just to make sure i i don't inadvertently um tweet this out on social media or send it to urn or anything like that we don't want arn to see this and we don't want all of you to let arn know that you saw that eric do you see over rick's left shoulder our right the far right see that four wheeler in the background yeah so when this photo first popped up again and started getting circulated a handful of years ago i said hey look at this cool old photo of the horseman showed my wife megan and she zooms in she goes hey look at

Starting point is 01:08:00 my four wheeler in the back that was rick's house in the background oh wow they're in the cul-de-sac there they'd all just gotten their new their new rides you see them leaning on some new mercedes and stuff and the stories of these guys making a bunch of money and going down to the mercedes dealer together together and loading up that's all true and you see all the gold there the national title the tv title the world title but yeah man i think i think we need to get you on stage and some of those nut huggers. I mean, he used to model. If we had a line of 83 weeks

Starting point is 01:08:28 nut huggers sponsored by Manscaped, I think we could make that work. What do you think? You're going to support some of those? No. All right. Well, listen, if you're thinking about it because it is summertime,

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Starting point is 01:09:03 life this year. It's time to upgrade his game from waste to face with this exclusive offer. Have him joined the 8 million men who've joined the NWO. I mean the Manscaped World Order and get 20% off plus free shipping with the code 83 weeks at Manscape.com. Eric, I think I just came up with something. Are we going to start our own MWO manscaped world order, the guys who are let's do it. I mean, I think that's a good idea. It's already the color scheme. They're already rocking black and white. The MWO. That's what we need. MWO nut hugger shorts and you can let it hang because you don't have anything that you can't tuck away. All right. Here's the deal. Let's start with dad. Let's take care of dad. It's the MVP of Father's Day. It's the

Starting point is 01:09:49 performance package 4.0. I have it on good. authority. That's what Rick used to call his gimmick back in the day before it was Space Mountain, the performance package. Now inside this, you'll find the lawnmore 4.0. It's a brand new trimmer that you're going to need if you're walking those nut huggers. And they've got the brand new weed whacker 2.0 ear and nose hair trimmer. They had to do a 2.0 because everybody who's close to Rick knows his nickname is beak and he wore out the first one. So he needed a second one. It's the 2.0. It's good to go. And if you could see Tully in the nut huggers there, you know my man knew all about the crop preserver ball deodorant and if we could get a shot of jj you'll notice

Starting point is 01:10:27 that he's wearing long pants that means he needed the crop reviver toner you don't want those boys hit in the water the performance boxer briefs are exactly what dad needs and how about a shed travel bag to hold his goodies it's all inside the performance package 4.0 and how could we forget the money maker let's throw that photo up there of arna Anderson again look at that beard he's rocking there look at how groomed that is you know how much time he had to spend on it to get that line like that let me tell you it's a lot you can save a lot of time though with the new manscaped beard hedger pro kit not only that you can hook that up with the beard hedger tremor the beard shampoo and conditioner the beard oil the beard balm and two free gifts like the beard comb and the scissors and let me just tell you if you're in a serious business meeting and maybe it's a negotiation and you get to that awkward silence and you reach in your desk and you pull out your must mustache comb and you start doing that, those guys are going to freak the fuck out and go with you. The confidence that you have to comb your fucking beard and mustache in front of them during a business deal, they're just going to submit.

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Starting point is 01:12:10 for life. I love this. I think we need to come out with some MWO. I can't wait to, you know. I'm just going to be curious how long it takes for us to get a cease and desist, but let's go for it. Well, here's the thing. If we start doing it, we're really promoting their brand at manscape.com using promo code 83 weeks. But imagine, let's just imagine, boys and girls, you find yourself at a bar over the summer. Maybe it's a beach bar. Maybe it's a bar. Maybe it's a bar on the lake. Everybody's outside doing outdoor activities. And you cruise in, all the ladies are wearing their bikinis, right? But you got your tank top on or your sleeveless t or your t-shirt and it says manscaped world order now they know what they're signing up for come

Starting point is 01:12:52 on now crazy like a fox manscape.com use the promo code 83 weeks that is pretty brilliant i mean that ain't bad right i'm just saying uh listen let's talk about oly anderson he's the first he's one of the founding members of the four horsemen he's the first got to get kicked out of the four horsemen but he's also someone who's going to have some influence creatively when you're there in WCW, and by and large, a lot of times WCW would go back to the well with this four horseman idea. Was Oly a proponent of that? Or did he do it reluctantly? Did he see value in it? What do you remember about the relationship? We'll call it in the 90s, early 90s, with Oly and should we or shouldn't we do something with the horseman again?

Starting point is 01:13:37 You know, I really, I don't know. I don't know what Oli's creative involvement was prior to me getting involved in management, so I couldn't honestly tell you. I did work with Oli was involved when I first was made executive producer when I had nothing to do with creative and I was only in charge of the physical production of the show. I know that Oli was there. He did have, obviously, he was involved in creative, but what influence or what his view of the four horsemen and how he was involved in trying to bring them back, I couldn't honestly tell you.

Starting point is 01:14:13 let's uh let's talk about something that happens while you're there i know you're not handling creative you're involved in more of the television side of things but when flair comes back from his little joint with the world wrestling federation we're going to start a flare for the gold which is essentially his talk show vehicle much like maybe the piper's pit or whatever the the barber shop the funeral parlor now it's the wcw side of things so we're going to call Flair for the gold. Decent little idea. Possibly a workaround because I don't think he could do in-ring action,

Starting point is 01:14:47 but he could still appear on the program. He just couldn't wrestle on TV. And they make the decision, hey, let's get the band back together. You know, let's do this. Let's get the horsemen back together.

Starting point is 01:14:59 And the idea is we'll have all the guys there, including Tully Blanchard. And then that doesn't work. At the last minute, there's a change of heart. Can't come to terms on a new deal. so we need to scramble to find because we love the idea of bringing back the horsemen

Starting point is 01:15:15 so if we can't get totally well just like we had to once upon a time with only we'll just find a new member and the person chosen is Paul Roma and this has become all these years later still something that's controversial and discussed and old school Crockett fans just absolutely hated it

Starting point is 01:15:31 even Rick wrote this in his book meanwhile Dusty Rhodes became the Booker one of his first acts was regrouping the four horsemen with myself, Arne, Oli, and Paul Roma. Basically, Paul had been a very lower-tier guy in the World Wrestling Federation who'd gotten a moderate push there. In my opinion, he also had a shitty work ethic

Starting point is 01:15:53 and once leaving an opponent waiting in the ring so he could finish up a game of cards. As soon as Roma's name was announced in Atlanta, the Omni went silent. It never ends, I thought. Here's Dusty screwing with me again. A lot to unpack there about. Rick and Dusty. We'll table that for now. As a fan, I actually really enjoyed power and glory

Starting point is 01:16:17 over in the WWF. They were a guilty pleasure of mine. That's Paul Roma and Hercules Hernandez. I know you probably weren't watching the WWF at the time, Eric, but they would do a superplex off the top rope. Hercules would. And then here comes Paul Roma with the big splash. Eventually, we would see FTR even use that a little bit in the WWE. I love that finish. I like the presentation. I didn't perceive him to be a quote unquote job guy or a very low tier guy or whatever the phrase that Rick used. But I know that man, it looks like all these years later, Rick and Roma are just not on the same page. They don't respect each other. You didn't see the heyday of the horseman, but you had to know, hey, everybody ain't happy about this idea. What do you remember

Starting point is 01:17:01 about the Paul Roma experiment? I mean, obviously, I was there for it. A wide, I didn't work with Dusty and creative. So that really was a Dusty Rose decision and idea. And I certainly couldn't begin to explain how or why Dusty decided that it was a good idea. You know, I think if you just kind of step back and pull yourself out of the history and the politics of it and just look at it from a casting perspective, you know, Paul Roma did have exposure in WWE. That was valuable. You can, as a wrestling fan, you can discount it. if you want, and resent it, in many cases, wrestling fans do.

Starting point is 01:17:43 But you cannot undervalue the idea that someone from WWE, as lower on the card as they may be, were getting significantly more exposure within a company that had significantly more express and brand value than WCW did at the time. So bringing somebody in that has had that exposure to the, to the wrestling world, wrestling audience, I understand the logic of it. I didn't know Paul Roma. I had no, to this day, couldn't talk about his work ethic or anything like that, but Rick clearly had an issue with him. And right off the bat, you've got a chemistry problem. You got four guys together and not everybody's on the same page.

Starting point is 01:18:36 So I can understand why Dusty made the decision. You know, I mean, even just aesthetically, you know, Roma had a great look. He was, he had a great physique. He had a great, you know, camera loved him. There's a lot of reasons why I could see why Dusty made the decision. But having not known Paul Roma previously, I was certainly not knowing him at the time. not sure what led to that decision years later the wb e would produce a four horseman documentary DVD and roma would be quoted as saying something like flare wanted to be me but never could

Starting point is 01:19:15 it's uh it's always going to be contentious with those guys and this incarnation of the horseman just never works only is on tv for very little of it you'll see rick and aren't team up against the Hollywood blinds. You'd even see Arn and Roma team up. They kind of positioned as baby faces. I always felt like, you know, they were probably better served as heels, but this is a dusty idea as,

Starting point is 01:19:42 as Rick laid it out. And I wonder, is it just maybe Dusty didn't have a better idea? Like, you got Rick coming back? What will we do with him? Well, let's go with what we know. Let's go with what works. And that's something that,

Starting point is 01:19:59 a lot of people do creatively like because you think you're going to get that nostalgia pop and then maybe it just doesn't work here. It's always a risk, isn't it? Yeah. You know, bringing someone back or recreating something that existed before. It's hardly ever as good as the original. You know, that's a, that's a challenge with anything. It doesn't matter what it is.

Starting point is 01:20:23 You know, when you come up with a great idea in any form of entertainment and you're the first one to the dance, when you can plant your flag and be the first with a new idea or a new group or whatever, a new character, there's real value there. But once you've done it, trying to recreate it, I think you're going to almost always come up short because it's never as good as the first edition is perceived to be. Yeah. Maybe short term, you're excited to see it back once. And then diminishing returns.

Starting point is 01:21:00 Like being the second man on the moon would be a great opportunity, right? Yeah. But it's not going to get the attention as being the first man on the moon. No, it is not. And the same thing is true creatively. You know, that's a risk you run with bringing shit back because you expect you're going to get the kind of reaction that you previously enjoyed and the audience just isn't thrilled with it as much.

Starting point is 01:21:23 It's interesting to see how, you know, the horseman would sort of evolve as a creative piece because, you know, they're the top storyline when they're first created in the mid-80s. But by the time we try in the early to mid-90s, it's not quite the same. And the horseman gimmick pretty much comes to an end when Orrin and Sid have their incident over in England. Roma starts teaming up with Paul Orndorff as pretty wonderful, flares back on his own. And it's kind of interesting to think that maybe what changed that all again is, is Starcade 93.

Starting point is 01:22:01 You know, everybody knows about the bonanza that Starcade 83 was, the granddaddy of them all. It predated WrestleMania. They shut down traffic. They turned away thousands of fans. And now because of the Cid incident, he's out for Starcade.

Starting point is 01:22:17 But it's in Charlotte. Let's get the old man in there. So Rick gets in there with Vader. It does the highest gross of the year for the company. From a ticket standpoint. and sooner rather than later we're starting to think about hey what if we bring back the horseman and do something else and we all know the story in 94 Hulk comes into the company and he's going to eat up flare because he's the guy that they trust and he's going to become world champion

Starting point is 01:22:47 and retire Rick and then Rick of course makes a come back a few months later and the evolution of how we get back to the horseman again I think think happens in 95. Now, by that point, you're more in control of, of everything that's going on, but you're still not as hands on creatively. So I'm wondering in that era, do you think that's Rick getting with Kevin Sullivan maybe to talk about, hey, what if we did something new? Yeah. I mean, it could could be that. Um, obviously Rick would be able to answer that better than I. But I did support it. I love the idea of it, of refreshing it. So I was very supportive of it, but I couldn't tell you, I couldn't imagine what the conversation was between Rick and

Starting point is 01:23:38 Kevin Sullivan, but clearly that's where the power line, right? I gave Rick a lot of rope. I had so much confidence in Rick and his experience and his outlook on things at that point in time that, uh, yeah, I fully supported it. But I couldn't tell you who whose idea it was originally. Bash of the Beach 95, which we're going to cover at some point, Hogan defeats Vader in a steel cage and eventually Flair comes in, Lambass Vader, Vader gets on the attack and Arne comes in to save Rick. And that looks like we're beginning, you know, to put those guys back together.

Starting point is 01:24:16 least on screen. Vader beats them both in a handicap match at Clash of the Champions, but that starts to create some divide between Flair and Arne on camera. And we even get a singles match at Fall Brawl where Arne defeats Flair one-on-one. A dream come true for Arne Anderson, I'm sure. He's admitted on his podcast. He was so nervous before hand he threw up. I mean, he's really wrestling. Why? Why? Why? The pressure was always there because he's wrestling his best friend, his real life best friend. Like my wife grew up calling Arn, Uncle Arne. That's not even his name, but that was what she called him. And so that's where they are. And so now there's this pressure of if he

Starting point is 01:25:00 doesn't perform, what is this going to look like? And what could you know what so weird about that is can you imagine Arne Anderson having a bad match? No, I don't think anybody. I don't think he could today. He'd still figure out a way to make it work. But, But what's interesting here is at this point in time, Arne Anderson, who is, I think, unquestionably, if you talk about the top five technical wrestlers of all time, I don't know how Arne Anderson isn't in that conversation right up at the very top, along with Brett Hart, and I'm sure many others or others. But Arn, I don't think he could have a bad match with anybody.

Starting point is 01:25:46 And now Rick Flair, who could have a match literally with anybody and make it entertaining and look good, how could Arne not have that confidence in himself to the extent that he got so nervous he threw up? That's, I don't know. It's interesting. And, you know, I understand the personal relationship was a big part of that. There was a lot on the line. But it's just an interesting thing to hear that Arne was so nervous about that when he was so gifted. And he was in the ring with a guy who was equally.

Starting point is 01:26:16 is gifted if not more so and by the way both of them loved each other and wanted to make each other look good what's there to be nervous about but i understand i totally agree i get it uh ultimately arn gets the win though with a little help from brian pilman so now see what we're doing here flare was in trouble arn makes the save they team up against the guy who was beaten on rick and that guy beats them but they both blame each other for the loss they settle it in a singles match But Arne can't help himself. He gets a little help from Brian Pilman. So now it looks like it's Arne and Brian Pilman versus Rick Flair.

Starting point is 01:26:56 Flair needs a tag team partner. He's got to have somebody to help take care of Arne and Pilman. So who does he go to? He goes to one of his greatest rivals, but also a former member of the four horsemen, Sting. And Sting, as he always did, got suckered in. At Halloween Havoc, sting finally makes the hot tag to flare flare flare struts around nail sting with the right hand boom

Starting point is 01:27:24 they all beat the shit out of sting it's just great stuff man it's great storytelling i absolutely love this angle the big reveal hey we're back together you thought i wasn't with my best friend you're wrong uh and and i'm wondering the timing of this just to let everybody know where we're at it's it's around the same time that the nitro's launching of course that was at Halloween havoc nitro launched just a couple of months prior whoever is helping chart the course felt like hey this might be good for business let's let everybody know the horsemen are back I mean that nostalgia thing it's a real thing it always works yeah I mean just say it can always work yes but you have to be careful with it it's not easy

Starting point is 01:28:12 You can't assume a lot. You can't take anything for granted. You have to put some real thought into bringing back a nostalgia act and find ways to freshen it up and give the acting new perspective, a different perspective, a different personality, if you will, different motivation, all the things that go into creating any kind of a good story. And I think in this case, Rick and Kevin Sullivan working together or individually, however it came about, we're right on the money, especially with, with Pilman. That was a that was an edge and a freshness that I think bringing back a nostalgia act needed. Now let's talk about the the new added wrinkle. Chris Benoit. Do you know why Chris was a good fit here or who would have helped make that call? I mean, we know that it's going to have an interesting to say the least relationship with Kevin Sullivan. But I mean, I know from a

Starting point is 01:29:11 work rate standpoint, the dude could go. I'm just curious. Why do you think Chris became the guy? Because I think if you look at, and in no disrespect to Brian, Brian's style was a much more dynamic, kind of athletic, aerial kind of presentation. You look at Arne and Rick. They were the professional wrestling version of ground and pound. They were technical wrestlers. They were, They, flamboyant as Rick may have been, you know, on his way to the ring and his character outside of the ring may have been inside of the ring, he was traditional wrestling. He was what most people who grew up watching wrestling in the 60s, in the 70s, or in the 80s recognized as a real professional wrestler. Arne, same, maybe even a little more so, because Arn didn't have the flamboyance, right he didn't have that wasn't coming to the ring dressed like you know looking like a peacock with the glitter and the fly in the boas and the sequence and arn was just he's just coming to the ring take care of business and he had so much credibility then you look at chris benoit it's like he was right out of this he was right out of the arn anderson mold he was while he had that flying headbut he did have some aerial stuff

Starting point is 01:30:36 Chris was that basic foundational ground and pound, if you will, version of a professional wrestler that just had so much credibility. And it's like they were related. Right. You know what I mean? There was so much similarities in their presentation and their credibility that Chris Benoit was just probably the best casting that had, from my perspective, at least, for the,

Starting point is 01:31:06 four horsemen post its original inception. He just, he had just brought, he brought, unlike Paul Roma, who didn't bring a lot of, he brought a cue rating, he got that recognition within the WWE world that Dusty, I'm sure, was trying to take advantage of, and he should have. But Paul Roma didn't have that character. He didn't have that vibe, that intangible quality that made him fit. he was almost too pretty right didn't work but chris benoit he was just serious as a heart attack so credible in his presentation was so similar that it was a perfect perfect casting

Starting point is 01:31:50 woman who we don't talk about enough these days in wrestling she's going to return and become a manager and uh as crazy as it sounds they're one of the top heel factions them and believe it or not dungeon of doom that's a real thing uh so that means they're going to be working with the other top baby faces, which at the time are Hulk Hogan, Randy Savage, Sting, and Lex Lugar. Of course, Sting and Lex Lugar, very familiar with the horseman, but now you've got the top guys from the other channel, Hogan and Savage, on the roster here. Let's talk about Super Brawl, perhaps it's most well known for that infamous Brian Pilman and Kevin Sullivan, I respect you, Booker Man thing.

Starting point is 01:32:29 We've talked about that a lot in the past in our archives over at 83 weeks on YouTube.com, but do you know what a guy like arn anderson thought of this loose cannon persona that pillman was trying do you think maybe it took away from the group or did everybody see it as hey man uh controversy creates cash i don't know what was in arn anderson's mind i don't think he and i ever spoke about it uh and i'm sure arn had a strong opinion but arn was what was how do I define my relationship with Arn? Arn was in so many respects an ideal person to have on your roster because he you knew he was going to deliver you knew he was going to work hard and let's

Starting point is 01:33:23 you know be honest here Arn had some baggage right but not inside of the ring or in the venue. You know, once he got to the building, he was all business. But he and I never really spoke much creatively. I never went to Arn and asked his opinion. Not that I can remember. I may have, but it would have been kind of courtesy or in passing.

Starting point is 01:33:50 And Arn certainly never came to me. He was very respectful in that regard. He never came to me if he had an issue. He probably worked through Rick. or Kevin Sullivan, which is, by the way, the way it should be done, especially at that time when I wasn't really in charge of, I mean, I was in charge of creator, but I wasn't running it. Arn, I was extremely professional in that regard.

Starting point is 01:34:14 So if he had issues or concerns, he didn't express them to me. He probably did to Kevin Sullivan, and probably most likely to Rick, but not to me. Well, listen, what's not often talked about, because that's such a big moment. the whole I respect you bookerman thing at super brawl later that night flair wins the world title from randy savage so he's on top of the company and the following night on nitro iron anderson beat holcogen now it took miss elizabeth's heel in his eye but still doesn't matter you got to win over whole cogan are you kidding like the horsemen are back on top again uh on the way to uh uncensored

Starting point is 01:34:56 we should point to the Nitro and Chattanooga in March. It's something that maybe is undersold in history here. He's in Chattanooga. It's a Nitro. And he's booed very loudly during this promo. The fans are not Hulk Hogan fans. They're not here to see Hulk Hogan. And it almost seems like for the first time,

Starting point is 01:35:20 because there have been, you know, some booze here and there since the early 90s. Like, oh, it's, of the kids. It's for the women. It's for the families. And some of the hardcore adult male wrestling fans, eh, boo. That's always been there. This is the first time it feels like it really gets to Hogan visibly. Do you remember seeing him, I'm talking about Hulk Hogan now, pronouns, pal, where the booze maybe shook him a little bit in this era. I'm not talking about recent stuff. I'm saying way back when he's supposed to be the top guy and the top baby face.

Starting point is 01:35:56 and there's never been enough booze that it really felt like it got to him. But this nitro in Chattanooga, it feels like it does a little bit. Do you remember seeing something like that? Sure. Sure. And I remember it. It's one of the reasons why, you know, a year before Hulk Hogan actually turned heel in 96, I had gone to Hulk's house to talk to him about turning heel because

Starting point is 01:36:20 the baby face thing wasn't working. And that, look, Hulk would never, you could know, I never saw it. I never saw him react. I never saw him sell or even do anything that made me believe while he was making his entrance or while he was in the ring that it was getting to him at all. But it seemed like even before this event in Chattanooga, even at center stage when he'd make it appearance, you know, you get that initial reaction from a lot of the fans. and after the newness where, you know, the new car smell kind of wore off and Hulk had been around for a while, you started hearing, started out very subtle, not that noticeable on camera, but when you're standing there, when you're backstage or when you're, you know, near the

Starting point is 01:37:10 floor, you can hear it, see it. And I started hearing it and seeing it more and more and more, not all of a sudden, but progressively over time. And at this point, for sure. And it was one of the reasons why I felt like this, this red and yellow thing isn't really working, to the extent that we wanted it to. It was still working strategically, business-wise, business-to-business, tremendous value.

Starting point is 01:37:38 But the crowd reaction was becoming more and more obvious that a larger and larger part of the audience wasn't reacting the way Hulk wanted him to and certainly not the way I wanted them to. And when I would notice, said, I think, to answer your question better, it was backstage. Right. There's a difference between going out, you get that great reaction, you have your match,

Starting point is 01:38:00 you get a great, yeah, you can cup the ear, do all the things that Hulk did in, the pose. And that's a, you know, you makes you feel good. You come back and, you know, Hulk would be, you know, higher to kite. But when you come backstage and you're getting, you know, you're starting a sense that the audience isn't with you to the same extent, you don't have that same attitude coming backstage you're not on the same adrenaline high that you would have been otherwise and that became noticeable over time let's also remind everybody that same show in chattanooga the main event is hogan and savage as a tag team that's right the former mega powers but you know

Starting point is 01:38:37 seven years later here teaming up against flare and kevin sullivan in a texas tornado match and that's not very horseman like to be joining the horseman with the dungeon of doom but these are the two top heels and fans are cheering for the horsemen and we know that eventually we're going we're going to see a change with Hogan but I want to remind everybody this era with Hogan now not in the title picture it's Flair and Savage them working the house shows are really something that turns house show business around for WCW before the NWO now there's no denying the NW took it to a whole new level. But prior to this Flair Savage house show run,

Starting point is 01:39:21 house shows were drawing, and this is real, 700 to 1,500 fans. Not good. That's like what GCW, GCW's probably beating that this weekend. Now, with Flair on top,

Starting point is 01:39:36 working with Savage for the world title, they're doing between 1,800 and 3,200 fans. So we're proving that Flair still a little bit of a draw, even if, you know, he has been killed off dead. What happens, though, next creatively is the Alliance to End Hulkomania. So now it's not just, can I, can I interrupt? I'm sorry. Sure, sure, sure.

Starting point is 01:40:00 You said that despite the fact that Rick was killed off. Well, he lost a retirement match and went away and all that stuff. Okay. So I'm just saying we're on the heels. So this is 95 and at Halloween Havoc 94, he lost. a retirement match. So it feels as if, okay, I mean, I think most people thought when he lost a retirement match, and I know no retirements in wrestling are real.

Starting point is 01:40:24 But I think the original plan was, okay, we'll have you gone for X number of months or whatever. When he's inserted back in, it's almost like he picks up right where he left off. Like, that's in the rear view. It doesn't matter. We're going forward now. And I think that's interesting because I think in mixed martial arts, and I realize we're comparing apples and pomegranates.

Starting point is 01:40:44 I'll never forget when Chuck LaDale first lost or when Ron DeRousey first lost or when Connor McGregor first lost people were just really quick to say oh their appeals over the mystique is gone they're not a draw anymore that's not the way it works like when someone is a fan of yours they're a fan of yours and you know what sometimes it doesn't hurt you to lose because now they want to see can you overcome and I just think that narrative that well he lost the world title. Well, he lost a match. Well, he lost a retirement match. That doesn't mean people quit caring, right? Not if you're a great character and you've established a relationship with the audience. Yeah. No, I think way too much is made of that. Way too much is made of that.

Starting point is 01:41:30 The alliance to end Hulkomania. Boy, this is, uh, right out of the book of bad ideas. We got the horsemen teaming up with the dungeon of doom. And I'm not saying this is the best version of the horseman. But I don't even know what we would call the best version of a dungeon of doom. Maybe one that didn't exist. But it's a tower of doom steel cage match with the likes of Z gangsta. So we can't call him Zeus anymore. Hogan's rival from the 1989 movie No Holds Bard. The Ultimate Solution, who we know from a Batman movie. And then Hogan and Savage are going to fight through Lex Lugar, Kevin Sullivan, the barbarian, Ming. And eventually, Arne and Flair, this might be the most unhorsman-like thing of all time.

Starting point is 01:42:18 I'm sure they weren't tickled to be here. Hey, it's a paper view main event. It's a lot of eyeballs. But if we had this one to do over again, probably wouldn't do that match, right? I wouldn't think so. Yeah. But again, Kevin and Rick were working very closely together. I don't know that.

Starting point is 01:42:39 I mean, Rick, you know, you know, I would love. to hear from Rick on this subject, but in terms of how he felt about going into this particular match, I don't know that Rick was against it, maybe, but since he was so close to Kevin Sullivan, if Rick was unhappy with it, I'm kind of shocked that it would have happened. Right. They had a good creative working relationship. There's a lot of mutual respect there between them. The idea to me sounds very Hogan-esque.

Starting point is 01:43:11 oh yeah i mean and and kevin solid and hulk also had a very good relationship so i can kind of see in my mind at least how this all came together um and i think there was a tremendous amount of hogan influence in this creative strategy when it's all said and done randy savage gets the pen on rick flare it would have been really easy for randy savage to pin i don't know kevin Sullivan or Lex Lugar or the Barbarian or Ming or Zeus or Ultimate Solution, but Rig didn't have a problem, Liz and Randy, I'm sure. And that turns into the horsemen of the Dungeon and Doom pairing off against each other.

Starting point is 01:43:54 As we know, Pilman's going to exit the company. Benoit's going to take his spot in a feud with Kevin Sullivan. That doesn't end well for anyone. And Flair randomly drops the WCW title to the giant on Nitro in late April. this feels as if we had some confidence in the horseman but maybe now with with pilman peeling out and we're going to take the belt off of flare it feels like hey we're trying to do something new was there a time where you felt like the horseman could have become a bigger deal here or was it more about we need some sarsa let's get the belt on a new cat let's put it on the

Starting point is 01:44:34 giant i think it was both i i wasn't a fan of putting the belt on the giant but I went along with it, supported it. I think you're probably right. I think it was more of a reaction to Pilman leaving than a thought process. And I think it's unfortunate because I think the four horsemen, hindsight's just such a wonderful fucking thing, isn't it? Yeah. But I think in hindsight, it would have been better to keep the horsemen together

Starting point is 01:45:08 and to focus on it and build it up than to just quickly move on, drop the title to Giant, which I'm sure there was some logic behind it. I don't know how good it was, but there was, I'm sure, a reason for it. It wasn't just a random idea as somebody came up with. But I think there was a missed opportunity there. No doubt a missed opportunity. We should talk about with Pilman gone,

Starting point is 01:45:35 there's a hole that needs to be filled. so who's it going to be mongo that happens at great american bash flare and arner teaming up to take on kevin green and steve mcichael as you might imagine mongo opens up the haliburton that was handed to him by his wife deborah it's filled with money and a horseman t-shirt mongo joins right up and this has been something that a lot of fans have been critical of saying mingo wasn't the wrestler that a lot of the other horsemen were and he wasn't the performer and well if you ask Rick Flair Rick says man he's one of the greatest horseman of all time that dude knew how to party he knew how to have a good time he

Starting point is 01:46:12 knew how to spend money so out of the ring he checked all the boxes in the ring maybe so not so much I've never been able to get a straight answer out of this though Eric I've sort of talked about it with you I've sort of talked about it with Rick I've sort of talked about it with Arne where Arne and Flair ever sort of asked hey who would you like in the group or is that just not the way the collaboration process really worked back then of course they were asked of course they were part of the discussion did they have the ability to throw a flag and say no i don't think so right but if they would have thrown a flag and said no we probably would not have moved forward knowing that the chemistry

Starting point is 01:46:57 wasn't there it just wasn't going to work rick and mongo were tight from the get-go right look i i think the idea of putting mongo in the four horseman was a i'm not going to call it a great idea but it was a solid idea i would agree i think if there was a mistake in the execution of a really solid idea on paper is that mongo should have been the finisher he should have been the anchor he should have been that power move here, power move there to set up a finish, whether Aron's going to go over, Rick's going over, whoever, Chris Benoit. If Mongo would have been in there as, I've got to get new lights.

Starting point is 01:47:45 These suckers only lasts about 20 minutes now. If Mongo would have been a part of the group and his role would have been to soften somebody up for the kill or to be, not to take anything away from Arn, but to be kind of that enforcer backup, use only, you know, Break glass in an emergency only kind of character and not let him try to be a horseman in the sense of the way he wrestled. Because there's no way a guy like Mongo who's going to come into the business late in life, no matter how much of a phenomenal athlete he was and he was, there's no way that guy's going to be able to hold a candle from a technical perspective

Starting point is 01:48:28 and do the kind of things that an Arne or Rick or Chris Benoit are going to be able to do. But he could do four, five, or six things that were devastating and have an important role. I think the mistake in hindsight was that we let, and this comes from an agenting kind of failure, we let him do too much. We let Mongo try to do more than he was really. really ready to do yet. And all you need is a couple baches. All you need is a mistake here or mistake there,

Starting point is 01:49:05 especially when you're in a high profile position, especially when you've got people who are so, you know, loyal to the four horsemen and the tradition and the history and all that. The minute you botched something, you're kind of branded for life. And I think if we would have brought Mungo in with his credibility, his notoriety in the NFL, because he was. you know, go back and listen to read about some of the things that people said and wrote about Steve McMichael as a part of the Chicago Bears.

Starting point is 01:49:38 He was a, he was as a legit of an NFL player as there was out there. Absolutely. And it's scary on top of it, you know, just intimidating. That fit very well into Four Horseman. Had we not let him overexpose himself in his own enthusiasm and desks, desire to do more it would have been better for everybody well let's talk about what what maybe wasn't best for everybody but it was good for the whole the NWO really becomes a thing in July here of 96 and it kills the momentum of the horseman as a whole because essentially

Starting point is 01:50:19 everybody's turning baby face now so guys like Flair and Arne who've always been standing across the ring from guys like Sting and Lex. They're teaming up in war games because they want to keep this new rival outfit, these outsiders to not steam roll through the whole company. And the whole horseman versus the NWO thing gets started, but it doesn't feel like it ever reaches full speed. Do you think, like even, you know, the whole Hogwild event where Hogan's going to win the title and he's

Starting point is 01:50:55 spray paints it with the NWO and all that jazz. That was against Flair. And so it's, it's fun to see it get up and going, but it almost feels like we kind of move on. Do you think there would have been an opportunity for it to be just the horseman versus just the NWO and then maybe try WCW? Or why did,

Starting point is 01:51:14 why did you think creatively at the time it was best for everyone to sort of band together against the outsiders? The enemy of my enemy is my friend. There you go. That was the psychology behind that. So, yeah, even though Rick and Arn, Horseman traditionally heals. Right. But to have this group come in and try to take over WCW from the outside

Starting point is 01:51:45 and have that be such a threat that former enemies would align. however temporary as it may be, to keep that threat away, to me made the threat more believable. It made it more important. To answer your question, could we have done something that was just horsemen and NWO and then move on to the rest of the team or the rest of the organization at WCW and start going after staying in Lugar and all the other people that represented WCW as a brand for so long? Yeah, possibly. Do I think it would have worked better than what we did?

Starting point is 01:52:28 Hard, hard to say. I'm reluctant to suggest that it even might have because of what we did do work so well. It's hard to imagine just the horsemen in NWO first having more impact. Because the NW came in with, just came in to seek and destroy. I mean, they wanted to seek and destroy everything. They wanted to completely turn the organization upside down. and I think having a traditional angle first with the NWO and horsemen before we got to the seek and destroy could have maybe it's possible would have worked it's hard to imagine that

Starting point is 01:53:09 it would have worked better than what we did want to give a shout out to everybody over in the group chat if you're hanging out with us during our live recordings you're definitely a member of ad free shows.com we always say you get the shows early and ad free well how about being a part of our live studio audience want to give another shout out to everybody hanging out including denovius mac and a bunch of others who've joined us but man my man adam arpin has a great question here he says or comment mongo should have been to the horseman what solo is to the bloodline man i think that's right on the money go i mean if you would have done that with him and not asked to do too much and as you

Starting point is 01:53:47 said maybe that's a producer uh issue that could have really worked man he just pops up hits a move done i like it he's the enforcer yeah and i think even you know i'm i'm hesitate to say this because it sounds like i'm criticizing and i don't want to in this context but it i wish in retrospect guys like arne and rick Kevin sullivan people that were involved Benoit would have never done it, but I don't think. But if those guys would have just put the reins on Mongo a little bit, just slowed him down, less is more approach. We were just discussing it would have been so much better for Mongo and so much better for the horseman.

Starting point is 01:54:34 That's a really good observation. Another observation is once the NWO gets up and going, Arnes hurt. Flair is hurt. He's going to have a torn rotator cuff. He's going to have operated on. But in October, right after fall brawl, Jeff Jarrett joins the company. He's immediately associated with the group.

Starting point is 01:54:57 We've had a lot of fun with this on our network of pods. Do you consider Jeff Gerard a horseman? Technically, yes. Yeah. Spiritually? No. Okay. well with orange uh career wrapping up due to his injury there is a hole that needs to be filled

Starting point is 01:55:19 and jeff jerr is in a story where he's sort of flirting with the horseman and it maybe gets a little convoluted it's like they let him in and then they kick him out it was maybe just a little too cute but the uh the competitive spirit in flare is still there even in his book which came out in 2004 so this would have been years after this. Quote, personally, I thought we blew away the NWO. Arne could talk better than those guys. Bongo was a marginal performer, but he had a million-dollar look to go along with

Starting point is 01:55:55 a Super Bowl ring. To the fans, we were all tough, believable guys. The only problem was that Arn could no longer continue as an active wrestler. And listen, we have discussed in great detail. That now infamous Arne Anderson retirement speech, it's all in the archives, 83 weeks on, YouTube.com. We've covered it from seemingly every angle. But it does feel like when Arne has to hang it up and give his spot, I know we try it a little longer. It's not the same without

Starting point is 01:56:28 Arne Anderson. That's kind of the end of the horseman to me. Let's say you. I agree. Yeah. You know, so much of it is chemistry. You've talked about it so much. I hate to even mention it again. But the NW will work because of great casting and a great chemistry. Doesn't mean everybody it along all the time, but on camera, the chemistry was magic. Same true with horsemen. As I said, as we first started talking about this, you take out Rick Flair, you take out R. Anderson, what did I say, 45 minutes ago? Yeah. It's not the same. That's right. And there's not much you can do. You know, it's the magic is in the chemistry. And once you take a big portion of the chemistry out of that chemical equation, it's not the same product. It's just not. People

Starting point is 01:57:10 aren't going to feel as connected to it. Rick would write this. Less than a month after the emotional night when Arn handed over his spot, Henning turned on the horseman, slamming my head in the cage door and joining the NWO. The match took place in the heart of horsemen territory,

Starting point is 01:57:26 Winston-Salem, North Carolina, and basically killed the city for WCW. For a second year in a row, the horsemen lost war games in their own backyard. In terms of storyline, the turn and result didn't make sense. The only motive seemed to be, burying me. The plot continued with Kerr Henning stealing my robe, tearing off the sleeves,

Starting point is 01:57:47 and awarding it to Hogan. Forget the fact that I'd paid $5,500 for the robe and wasn't reimbursed. When it was handed to Hogan, the fan outrage transferred over to him. In other words, it wasn't Kurt's storyline anymore. Hogan stole it. And there's been a lot of hurt feelings about what Rick wrote in his book. And I'm sure he's last. out and maybe that's the way he really felt at the time but I'm curious did you ever even hear of him trying to be reimbursed for the $5,500 road because that doesn't feel like that would have been an issue for WCW at all. No.

Starting point is 01:58:26 Yeah. And if it would have landed on my desk, it would have become even less of an issue than it would have been for WCW as a company. Right. So I don't know what the background is on that. I kind of hesitate to comment. them about things that people wrote in books 19 years ago. Yes.

Starting point is 01:58:45 Good call. But if there would have been an issue, had I been aware, had Jenny Engle come to me and she could have easily, and Rick could have easily gone to her. Right. They had a great relationship. They were very, very close and had been for a long time. It would not have ended up in Rick's book. Let's just put it that way.

Starting point is 01:59:06 The horsemen were dormant for a long time, loosely associated. are Ben Juan McMichael, but flares out and he's going to be working with Brett Hart and then he's got the contract impasse and a lot of legal wrangling. Eventually, it all gets worked out. And it is one of the more memorable moments in television wrestling history, certainly nitro history, when the horsemen are reformed seemingly for the last time. Arne Anderson introduces the group, it's Dean Malenko, as a new addition. And then eventually, as we know, he brings out.

Starting point is 01:59:39 Rick Flair. It was September 14th in Greenville. It's a super emotional night. Meltzer would say interview, although he may very well might be, but at his motivated best, nobody can touch him. And for people who admit to Flair being a great worker, but not a superstar in the industry and the level of others who have more mainstream notoriety, or say he's past the point due to his age of being marketed as a top star, well, the earthquake sounding reverberations heard around the country on 914 must have been quite the jolt of reality. You can tell that Dave is a really, really big fan, and what an iconic night that was, and it was a special moment, and you're a big part of that. Fire me. I'm already fired. This is like the last great

Starting point is 02:00:28 horseman moment, in my opinion. Would you agree? Yeah, I would. But going back to, you know, something that Rick said in his book about how we killed Winston-Salem, obviously, we intended to piss off the audience. Right. And we booked it in Winston-Salem, and we booked that finish because we knew the way the audience would react. If somebody would have come to me and said, do you mind if we just kind of do something that's going to probably burn the town as far as ticket sales because we're going to get so much heat for

Starting point is 02:01:01 what we do? People are genuinely going to be pissed off, not in a, a, what's the term? Not a, not a Pavlovian wrestling fan response, but a genuine distaste and hatred and angry for what we did. Now, you're going to build up Rick Flair. When Rick Flair comes back, it's going to be even more meaningful because of the way he was treated, because the fans are loyal to the forehorsmen, because the fans love Rick Flair, when you finally do bring him back,

Starting point is 02:01:36 there's going to be even more support for him. But in the meantime, we're going to piss off a lot of people in Winston-Salem, despite the fact that the rest of the country is going to get with what we're doing because it's real heat. Would you do that again? And the answer would be in a minute,

Starting point is 02:01:50 less than a minute. It would take me less time to make that decision that it would take for someone to present that opportunity to me. And the reaction that we're getting here, I think justified it. There was, I think a Rick got more love and support and a horseman in this situation than they would have if they would have gone over in Winston Salman said the fans home happy. Yeah. That was the risk. It was a good risk.

Starting point is 02:02:17 And I think as Dave pointed out, despite the fact that he just may have been in love with Rick Flair or the horsemen at the time. I don't know what his feelings were. But I think the reaction that he got, that deafening reaction, if indeed it's true, because it did come from tapeworm, um, as a result of the way Rick was treated in Winston-Salem. He was coming back. They wanted him back. This nitro where Rick Flair comes back is the second to last time that Nitro would ever defeat

Starting point is 02:02:53 Raw in the ratings. The only other time that Nitro beat Raw in the ratings is after Halloween Havoc that year, where the show went long and a lot of cable systems weren't able to air the main event. So you guys showed Goldberg versus DDP on free TV the night after Halloween Havoc. That's the last time. Yeah, that's, and that's not even fair. So let's call it what it is. The return of Rick Flair gets enough national attention.

Starting point is 02:03:22 It's the last time WCW Nitro beats Monday Night Raw. I say all that to say, come on, Eric. I know you like to say things here to get some clicks and to fire me up and create some controversy. I'm not poking you. I'm not trying to let you up. That's your role. You said here tongue and cheek.

Starting point is 02:03:46 The horseman never drew. Well, they got the last time. I mean, come on now. Hey, Drew. Are you kidding me? Are you fucking kidding me? Wasn't a Prince Ikea match. Are you suggesting that the last time that Nitro was able to,

Starting point is 02:04:05 first of all, the last time that Nitro beat WWE had a lot more to do with WWE than anything going on in WCW or not going on in WCW, number one. Number two is the reason that it, I don't know, reason. I'm pretty sure that if we look back objectively, it's because of what the NW did with Rick, to Rick, to the horseman that made that come back so powerful. It was the story. It wasn't the horseman. It was the story. And as far as me saying that the horseman never drew within my era of WCW, my experience, my firsthand experience from the time I got there,

Starting point is 02:04:55 there till the day that I left, the horseman without the NWO was interesting. The fans loved it. It was great entertainment. But when it was the focus of WCW, WCW was losing money. You can't hold me accountable or expect me to be able to comment on what happened with the Crockin organization. That was another world, another time, and it wasn't mine. But my experience, just my experience with the four horsemen within WCW,

Starting point is 02:05:24 from the time I got there in 1991 to the time I left and whatever. The horsemen, while the audience loved them, they had loyal following and all of that. Go back and look at financial records from that time period and tell me otherwise. No, I understand that they may have printed money in the Crockett era. I wasn't there. I don't know.

Starting point is 02:05:49 All I know is what I was involved with and what I saw first. And it's not a knock on them, has more to do with where WCW was and the lack of strategy and the lack of creative, all the things that you made fun of me or ripped me about when talking about my concern about where AEW is at and taking on more, more television at a time when they haven't really figured out their creative yet. That's exactly what I mean. The NW, or the Four Horseman, it's not even a discussion as to whether or not they had the talent or whether their characters were 100% on the money. The question is, what was their creative and did it work?

Starting point is 02:06:37 Did they draw revenue in house shows? Did they draw a revenue in pay-per-view? Was there a license in merchandising sales? And in any one of those metrics, the answer is no. it's not because they didn't have the talent. It's not because they weren't viable characters. It's not because they weren't powerful characters. Indeed, they were.

Starting point is 02:06:58 The timing wasn't right for them because WCW didn't have what WCW needed to take advantage of the power that they had in the four horsemen. It wasn't a talent issue. It was a corporate issue. Well, I'll tell you what. If you're worried about having corporate issues, maybe you're not exactly sure where to start with your new business. There's only one

Starting point is 02:07:21 place to look, and that's Empira. Empira.com slash Eric. If you sign up today, you'll get free onboarding, 14 days for free, 24-7 support. You can even get ahead of the game and save 20% on your subscription when you use the promo code wrestle biz

Starting point is 02:07:37 at checkout. While not launch your business plan faster and with less effort than ever before, visit E-M-P-I-R-A-A-com slash Eric and start your journey to success today. I mean, here's the thing. It's an essential tool for businesses of all sizes. It's going to provide a roadmap for success. It enables collaboration between team members. It's going to foster communication and teamwork. You'll have the peace of mind of knowing that your business plan is well structured, thought out,

Starting point is 02:08:07 and achievable, and empiric can help with that. You're going to talk to a real person, and they're going to help you turn your business plan into an idea and then into actionable plans they're going to provide you visibility into the success of that plan you're going to know what's working and what's not can't recommend it enough i know eric loves it you will to check it out it's impira dot com forward slash eric that's e m p i r aa dot com slash eric uh listen you're working against flare in the build up to starcade 98 uh it's really one of the last great programs that rick is in in w cw of course you meet him and then the night after you're going to lose to flare and you get control

Starting point is 02:08:56 or he gets control of the company for 30 days and that story is sort of completely forgotten about in history because instead we do the old finger polka doom on January 4th 1999 but it does lead to the last major successful WCW pay-review that the company ever had uncensored 99 in Louisville at Freedom Hall, we would see Flare turn heel in a first blood steel cage match against the WCW champion Hulk Hogan, have a little help from his old pal Charles Robinson, and he becomes the WCW champion earlier in the night. Benoit and Melenko won the tag titles with the help of Arne Anderson. The horsemen are riding again, but a few weeks later, old Mongo just wanders off. Lord bless him, he's done with the company. Flair is going to lose

Starting point is 02:09:45 the main event of Nitro to Ray Mysterio by DQ and he drops the title to Diamond Dallas page at Spring Stampede. That leads to Flair becoming a bit of a nut job. He needs a personal nurse. Asia is going to come in in that regard. We're also going to have David Flair come in as U.S. champion, which has Benoit and Melenko leave in May in protest over what Rick is doing.

Starting point is 02:10:10 And they're going to join Shane Douglas' Revolution Group. And that is the act. actual end of the four horseman it's a sad end to a great stable but listen it was pretty creative at times people had a lot of fun once upon a time it drew money once upon a time it drew ratings but they say we say this a lot timing's everything and it just felt like the timing was never quite the same as this original version and that harkens back maybe to the beginning of our conversation today we talked about the new aW collision show and the similarities in that new logo with the OG Nitro logo.

Starting point is 02:10:50 And I got to tell you, Eric, I know, you're flattered by that as you should be. I kind of secretly, selfishly hope that when we see that show, we got those big stainless steel letters that say AEW there and that diamond plate. Like, just lean into the nitro nostalgia. I think that would be fun. Like, nostalgia does work, but I'm wondering from your perspective, have we learned just dissecting all the, the second and third and fourth and fifth and 17th incarnations of the different versions of

Starting point is 02:11:20 the horsemen, will that nostalgia wear off if that's what they do? I'll be right back. While Eric's away, now's a great time to tell you that this is the perfect time to buy a house. If you've been on the fence about whether or not now is the right time to buy a house, I'm telling you, this is it. Prices are going to continue to rise. I know a lot of the naysayers out there were saying, oh, there's going to be a major housing

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Starting point is 02:12:21 over 40 offers on a home, and they never found one. But they have now, and they got a much better deal. You see, the reality is, with less people competing for a house, you're more apt to get a good deal. And here's the reality, rates are going to come down, and you can always refinance later. If you take a look at interest rates historically, you'll see that they've always gone up and down. But let's not be foolish enough to think that when we sign up for a new loan today, that we never refinance? Come on. What matters most is you want to date the rate, marry the house.

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Starting point is 02:14:27 That's save with Conrad.com. Inimeless number 65084 equal housing lender. Let's do a question here from Adam Arpin. I wonder if they ever approached OLE about taking on the JJ role and later renditions of the horsemen while JJ was head of talent relations in WWF. That might have been interesting. As I understand it, Oli was shown the door in 94, so he wasn't really around in the company. Was there ever a consideration and say 95, 96, 97, 98, somewhere in there to say, hey, let's get Oli back or were you just glad to be out of the Oli business? No, Oli was too. Oli was, he was too negative.

Starting point is 02:15:10 He just, he resented too much. He just had so much baggage. He was pissed off at the world. He didn't respect Rick. He didn't respect Dusty. He didn't respect me, which I can understand. He just, he just, everybody, the entire world was wrong but him. And he was the only one that knew how to do things right, in his opinion.

Starting point is 02:15:37 And I can kind of understand that to a degree. If you can manage it internally and work with us. other people. But when you got a guy who is, I think at that time, Oly might have been a vice president. Bob Doe would have made him that. Punching holes in the walls of the offices at Turner Broadcasting. Yeah, that don't work. It just doesn't work. Oly was too bitter. That's the better word. He was too bitter to do business with. I'm going to go back to your question about AEW and the logo and seeing the

Starting point is 02:16:14 stainless steel set and all that. Do you think that could just be a short-term thing, or do you think that could work long-term? Is nostalgia short-term? I think if it's a short-term, if that colors and the logo and the direct rip-off, it's what it is. As flattering as it may be, it is what it is. It can work, and parts of me would love to see.

Starting point is 02:16:44 see it, but going back to what we talked about for the first 30 minutes of the show. Having had some experience in trying to recreate something, you run a very high risk. And here's the truth from my perspective. It doesn't mean it's a fact. It's just the way I look at things and I believe it to be true. that the fans perception, those fans who think that watch Nitro and were part of that and it changed their lives and it brought them back into wrestling. Because let's keep in mind in the early 90s because of the steroid trial in WWE at the time

Starting point is 02:17:28 and all the craziness that was going on there and the fact that WCW couldn't hit their ass with both hands and a compass. They couldn't find their ass with both hands and a compass, creatively speaking, because that is a big part of the business. The audience for wrestling was leaving. The prevailing opinion, the consensus opinion among television executives that I worked with 92, 93, 94, was that wrestling was dead. The audience has come and gone. Wrestling is going to be a part of television history. It's never going to come back to its glory day. That was the consensus of opinion amongst people that were not only in the wrestling business, but in the television business as well.

Starting point is 02:18:13 And that changed. And we created this Monday Night War thing, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. We all know what that is. And people will have a feeling about Nitro and a relationship with Nitro and what was. And it's overblown. their minds in a way it's it's i'm not saying this the way i want to say it people who were fans of nitro and recognized nitro for what it was and how it changed the industry and during that period of time put nitro and the product on a little bit of a pedestal in in some regards and to a large

Starting point is 02:19:00 degree it's unfair this is not really true i mean there was a lot of things that we did at that changed the industry. Yes, there's a lot of things that made it better, made it more on shining, created the Monday Night Wars, yes. But when you bring something back, much like you're bringing back the four horsemen or trying to bring back a character,

Starting point is 02:19:20 the audience expectations and their kind of fantasy relationship with the original version makes it almost unattainable. It's the risk of disappointing the audience if you lean too much into, okay, you know, we're on night. We're AEW, but man, we were born in this nitro, whatever. We're an extension of it.

Starting point is 02:19:46 A little bit of it's okay. Too much of it will backfire big time because there's no way AEW will be able to deliver on the promise. As unfair as the promise may be, they'll be unable to deliver up. Not because of all the obvious reasons, because they just don't have the creative horsepower or the vision. It's not even creative. It's vision and strategy. They don't have anything new or different.

Starting point is 02:20:09 So to lean too much into the nitro thing could backfire. I think it already has a little, you know, at least what I see social media. Let's put a button on the four horsemen talk. What do you think the four horseman legacy will be in this sport? Originators, innovators. They were the first, right? They were the first real powerful,

Starting point is 02:20:32 successful, stable. And nobody is going to be able to take that away from them, not the NWO, not the bloodline. Nobody. They were the first. It's a big advantage of being first and they were the first. And they did it well.

Starting point is 02:20:50 They did it very well. Next week, that's a legacy. Next week, we're going to talk about the legacy of Lex Lugar. We're going to cover his time in WCW from 98. to 99 we'll talk about joining the wolf pack turning heel in early 99 with the NWO and the plans for his return before you left WCW by the way I just want to give a shout out as this episode drops we are exactly one month away from our annual top guy weekend event I can't believe this is real Huntsville was voted on to be this year's location we've done it

Starting point is 02:21:26 twice in Chicago and now we're coming to Huntsville we're going to have a lot of very special guests here it's going to be a lot of fun uh i can't wait super excited i don't even want to spoil it but let me just say eric you often have said on the show it can be less than better than or different than you know some of the things we're doing this year's top guy weekend it's going to be different than is it not yeah it's going to be a lot different but i think it can be uh it will be a lot more engaging i think fans are going to have an opportunity to be a part of the event as much as showing up to the event so that's cool it's going to be fun by the way there's still a chance for you to join us over on ad free shows sign up right now at adfreesows

Starting point is 02:22:11 dot com by the way if you sign up and become an annual member uh we'll see a top guy weekend why not join us uh by the way if you're not sure about the value why not try a free trial on us just go check it out right now your first week is free we want you to get a peek out of the hood see what's what come to some of our live taping see some of the bonus events. You get bonus events with, man, a who's who. Kurt Engel and Arne Anderson and my God, we just had Rick McFoly earlier this week. Something for everybody. By the way, if your business targets men 25 to 54 years old, there's no better place to advertise than right here with us on 83 weeks. You've heard us do some of the same ads for the same companies

Starting point is 02:22:50 for years. I don't know why that is. Well, because it really works. And with our super targeted audience, there's very little waste. Go right now to advertise with Eric.com and find out more about advertising here with 83 weeks love to have you check out Eric's new book it's on Amazon it's Bischoffbook.com or of course on Amazon you can find Grateful I absolutely loved it got some summer travel

Starting point is 02:23:12 coming up I'm sure a lot of people do why I go ahead and read what easy E has to say I would love to have your interactions on social as well the show handles are easy it's at 83 weeks on Twitter Instagram and Facebook you can find Eric over on Twitter at E Bischoff I am at Hey Hey it's Conrad and of course the easiest

Starting point is 02:23:30 way to support our show is to go subscribe to our YouTube channel. It's 83 weeks on YouTube.com. That's 83 weeks on YouTube.com. Tons of new swag too available, including the brand new endeavor to persevere. How about their stickers you can put on your laptop like the big gold belt? Maybe it's time to do some grilling. We got an 83 meets little Yeti cooler and you know, it's the NWO inspired swag that you've been looking for. It's 83 weeks merch.com. That's 83 weeks merch.com. Eric, I had a lot of fun talking with you today. I always love yelling at you and debating AEW.

Starting point is 02:24:07 And I'm sure we'll do more of that next week. But I'm glad we, we set the record straight and you and I agreed the horseman or the innovators. Bravo to the horseman. And congratulations to Tony Conner, as Eric Bischoff would say, fuck you very much. Wow, you were just evil. I'm excited, man.

Starting point is 02:24:30 Listen, if you would have told me, and I think we can all agree with this, this cat started this thing just over four years ago. He didn't even have his first episode four years ago. And now he's got his third show on the Turner Network, two of which are going to be live. Like that just didn't even seem possible just five, six, seven years ago. And now it's happening. I think it's moving in the right direction for the whole industry. I'm excited to see what's happening with WWE. It seems like their stock is just climbing by the day.

Starting point is 02:25:00 as a wrestling fan, I just think it's good for the business. And I know you think that's pandering bullshit, but as a wrestling fan, I have to admit, 10 years ago, I wasn't sure this thing would even exist in 30 years. It felt like it was just on a downward trend. And maybe it was going to become Pass A and it was going to be something like roller jam or something. And it was something we used to do. And then it just went away. And I'm glad that doesn't seem to be the case right now. Now we feel like with everything that WWE has done and certainly the investment we've seen, The Turner organization, man, there's going to be wrestling for a while. And I think that's, uh, that's good for people who work in the business and good for the fans of it.

Starting point is 02:25:38 So apologies for being excited about a new show and hopefully a boatload of cash coming into the industry. Wholeheartedly agree. Wow. It took us two and a half hours, but we finally agreed. Let's just stop there. So we don't, uh, I was just about to follow it up in the comment, but I'm not going to do it. I'm not going to do it. Not here, not now.

Starting point is 02:26:05 Send your hate tweets to add E. Bischoff, and we'll be back next week right here on 83 weeks with Eric Bischoff. Fight Plus is the ultimate digital platform for live sports and entertainment, and they're now offering a free seven-day trial at tryfight.com. Fight Plus is packed with a premium live event schedule over 1,000 hours of live action every year, and a library of more than 4,000 hours on demand, plus exclusive content you can't get anywhere else. Fight is a great partner of ours. They support us, so let's support them.

Starting point is 02:26:41 Give that free seven-day trial a shot, and you'll be a member for life. That's tryfight.com. T-R-Y-F-I-T-E dot com. Hey guys, need to call a quick time out here. I wanted to tell your listeners what I've been telling my listeners over at O you didn't know for a while now, about all the cool things happening over at ads-freeshows.com.

Starting point is 02:27:05 An all-new mailbag series debuts later this month on ad-free shows as we pick the braid of a man who has spent 40-plus years in the wrestling business. Longtime WCW and WWE referee Nick Patrick answers your question. St. Kurt Angle. Where are you getting better on it? No, it ended up being my own blood. Austin had the title. It had the little jagged edges on, right?

Starting point is 02:27:28 and it had a deal where Angle pulled me in, and I took a belt shot. A little bonus content comes your way, courtesy of the Kurt Angle show. A dream match became a reality back in 2016 as Kurt Angle squared off against Cody Rhodes on the Independence. For the first time, Kurt watches back his match against the American Nightmare. This kid's really talented. He's selling the ankle here on the Leap Frog, went down on it awkwardly. He's outside the ring talking to the referee. This isn't, like you said, all part of the match plan.

Starting point is 02:28:00 Hey, start to show that weakness in the ankle. Yeah, yeah. This was his idea to make it look like he hurt his ankle. So when he did lose, he had to get him right about. Ad free show members have chatted one-on-one with AEW stars like Eddie Kingston, Dax Harwood, Ricky Starks, and many more, including a recent live interactive session with Renee Paquette. He still continues to do that. He's on commentary on AEW.

Starting point is 02:28:28 So I think it was cool for him to kind of put on that analyst hat and get to kind of test out those waters a little bit. But end of the day, it was a thing that I think made him feel like, you know what, wrestling can be okay again. I can have fun in the wrestling space again. And now we have Sampunk Wrestling. So you're welcome. That's just a small taste of what we got waiting for you. With four levels to choose from, see for yourself why ads-free shows is the best value in wrestling today. Sign up now at ads-freeshows.com.

83 Weeks with Eric Bischoff - Episode 271: AEW Collision & The Four Horsemen

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