83 Weeks with Eric Bischoff - Episode 279: The WCW Invasion Of The WWF

Episode Date: July 17, 2023

On this episode of 83 Weeks, Eric and Conrad discuss the debacle of the WCW invasion of the WWF. Eric shares the details surrounding the sell of WCW, how he was contacted by the WWF before the invasion, and what he would have done different that could have made the invasion angle the biggest event in professional wrestling. GAMETIME - Snag the tickets without the stress with Gametime. Download the Gametime app, create an account, and use code WEEKS for $20 off your first purchase (terms apply). Download Gametime today. Last minute tickets. Lowest Price. Guaranteed. MANSCAPED - Get 20% Off and Free Shipping with the code 83WEEKS at Manscaped.com.  AG1 - Try AG1 and get a FREE 1-year supply of Vitamin D AND 5 free AG1 Travel Packs with your first purchase. Go to drinkAG1.com/83WEEKS. That’s drinkAG1.com/83WEEKS. SAVE WITH CONRAD - Stop throwing your money on rent! Get into a house with NO MONEY DOWN and roughly the same monthly payment at SaveWithConrad.com ADVERTISE WITH ERIC - If your business targets 25-54 year old men, there's no better place to advertise than right here with us on 83 Weeks. You've heard us do ads for some of the same companies for years...why? Because it works! And with our super targeted audience, there's very little waste. Go to AdvertiseWithEric.com now and find out more about advertising with 83 Weeks. Get all of your 83 Weeks merchandise at https://boxofgimmicks.com/collections/83-weeks FOLLOW ALL OF OUR SOCIAL MEDIA at https://83weekslinks.com/ On AdFreeShows.com, you get early, ad-free access to more than a dozen of your favorite wrestling podcasts, starting at just $9! And now, you can enjoy the first week...completely FREE! Sign up for a free trial - and get a taste of what Ad Free Shows is all about. Start your free trial today at AdFreeShows.com. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey guys, Eric Bischoff here to talk to you about my friends over at save with conrad.com. Are you looking to get out of debt? Conrad and his team can make that happen faster than me firing the hockey talk man. Wow. And you know that controversy creates cash, right? Do you know what doesn't create cash? Credit card debt. Save with Conrad can help you consolidate high interest credit cards and all of your other debt into one low monthly payment.

They can even help you get the cash card. you need for home improvements or anything else. They've helped 83 weeks listeners say 500, 600, 700, even $800 a month. Seriously, your paper's going to go down faster than nitral ratings in 2000. Ouch. And how about this? No house payments for two months. That's right.

No house payments for two months. And unlike the dirt sheets, man, the reviews do not lie with over 1,000. five-star reviews. Find out for yourself how much Conrad and his team can save you by checking out Savewithconrad.com today. Be grateful you did. NMLS number 65084 Equal Healthy Lended. Woo! Hey, hey, it's Conrad Thompson, and you're listening to 83 weeks with Eric Bischoff. Eric, what's going on, man? How are you? I'm doing great. Got a big weekend coming up.

I'm going to be in Akron, Ohio, Saturday. So if you're a wrestling fan, you'll find me. Following week, I'm traveling to Baltimore. Going to have some fun. Then I'm going to be in, where am I going to be on? Oh, July 26th, I'm going to be at Linesider Brewing. Ha, ha. I love that.

Over in East Greenwich, Rhode Island, for Best Trivia ever. Best trivia ever is a blast. Come on over to Linesider Brewing. Check us out. Got a busy August coming up, heading to the U.K. in September, heading to Wales in November. Let's get a look at that. Let's get another look at that Best Trivia Ever graphic. It's kind of a cool graphic. I like that. Best trivia ever. You can get your tickets at best trivia ever.com.

If you're in the East Greenwich, Rhode Island area, check us up. We're going to have a blast. I'm excited about all that you got going on. Of course, you're going to be over across the pond with our pal, Kitty McIntyman. I think is a part of inside the ropes. That's happening towards the end of September. But before you get across the pond, you're going to be with our pal Dan McDivitt, Maryland Championship Wrestling is doing their own big shindig.

It's happening this Sunday, the 23rd. So if you haven't already, make plans to come see EasyE. And I think your old pal John Alba is going to be there. You guys are going to be doing a little strictly business for MCW and Dan, right? Yeah, that should be fun. I've never done a live strictly business. so I'm looking forward to the Q&A portion of that. But yeah, no,

and Baltimore, man. Baltimore's a fun wrestling town. I can't wait to get there. Hell yeah, it is. And of course, we've got Starcast right around the corner. Of course,

you know we can't do that without EZE. Come back us out if you haven't made plans already. In Chicago, Labor Day weekend, Friday, September 1st, September 2nd and September 3rd. We've got lots of fun tricks up our sleeve. We'll start announcing this week on social media.

But right now, you can go ahead and make the all out show a destination we've got bracelet packages which would allow you to see all the panels on friday saturday and sunday of course first crack at the meet and greet and boy do we have some surprises and special opportunities there we're going to lead into some more interactive stuff like we did this year at top guy weekend as well but maybe the coolest part about going to starcast.com right now you can lock in a hotel room where it all happens meaning you don't have to leave you just wake up go downstairs and to-da you're in wrestling fantasy land and right now we have a bundle where you can get ringside

seats for all out that's right you want second row seats you want lower level you want the best seat in the house it's available now at starcast dot com that's s t a r r c a s t dot com no fantasy involved in this one today though boy we're going to talk about what actually happened with the invasion yeah that invasion 22 years ago It was every wrestling fan's dream. I'll never forget going to the grocery store with my mom when I was a kid. And they always had that newsstand section, so I was never disappointed that mom made me go unload the groceries. It meant I got to check out all the latest and greatest wrestling magazines.

And inevitably, at least one of those magazines every single month or so it felt had some sort of fantasy booking on the outside. What if this guy wrestled this guy? Whether it was Stone Cold versus Goldberg, whether it was Sting versus the entertainment, even in the 80s. What if it was Hulk Hogan versus Rick Flair? And then it finally came to be. We were going to see it. And it happened, uh, of course, the big invasion paper view happened in July of 2001. So Eric, if we had a baby the day of that pay per view, that dude would be 22 years old now. He could legally drink a beer with us. Where does the time go, man? But you know, you grow up all your life when you're a kid and you're a younger adult. And

you hear your parents or older friends, family members, and they all lament the fact that time, you just young man, you won't believe how, when you get to be my age, how fast time goes by. And you nod your head and, of course, be respectful. But in your mind, you just don't, there's no context. There's no relationship to that. You just nod your head and be polite and, you know,

kind of feel a little sorry for people that feel that way. And here I am talking to you about something that happened 22 years ago. and I remember it like it was yesterday. It's really fascinating. It is fascinating. And I'm excited for us to talk about, you know, what did happen, what could have happened, what you would have done differently. We started a guess with, uh, your attempt to purchase WCW. You wrote in your book that you reached out to Brad Siegel to purchase WCW, even when Vince Russo was in charge and Siegel told you that AOL Tom Warner would never

sell the company. A man, in less than a month of that conversation, he calls you back and says hey eric were you serious about that i mean this this all happened very very quickly um i know it's been a long time now but is that the the greatest what if for you of all like what if you would have gotten hold of wcd i think it probably it has to be right because that who knows look it could have been a disaster it also could could have been one of the greatest things that happened to me and my family and to WCW fans. So we'll never know. And I guess because of that, I honestly don't think about that much, but I think in this, on this particular episode, we're going to be thinking or I'm going to be thinking about a lot of things that I never

really have given much thought to you. And that's what will make this show fun. So did you think it was something that you could run without AOL, Tom Warner? Like the, the attractiveness of the whole opportunity was the size of the network, whether it was TBS or T&T, and that there was a relationship or a contract in place. If you purchase the thing, because just to add context to what I'm saying here, this is not the typical wrestling setup. Like Tony Kahn, as we understand it, has a contract with Time Warner, but Tony owns AW.

Vince McMahon and shareholders own WWE, and they have a contract with USA and a contract with Fox. WCW, of course, is owned by Ted Turner. So it's all a part of this television company. I guess the question is, without AOL, without Time Warner, is there any interest in doing anything with the WCW brand? I mean, all of a sudden, that's a totally different conversation, right?

Yeah, and totally different conversation, a totally different circumstances. I had, and we discussed this in the past, but um when and you're right you know i had spoken to brad and said man if i were you brad i would sell this thing while it still has value and of course brad seagull kind of chuckled and he said eric this is turner you know we don't we don't sell things we buy things okay brad carry on and uh shortly thereafter brad called said hey maybe do you think you could and we we did I did we were able to with Brian Bedal and his partner Steve Greenberg

of Fusion Media is able to put together when I say we it's in terms of putting together the 67 million dollars I think Brian and C put in five million dollars of their own money as seed money just when you're going out you're pitching an investment like that traditional investors even VC you know types they want to know that you've got skin in the game, that you're not just trying to build this business using other people's money. They want to know that you've got some of your own in, in a meaningful amount as well.

And that's where Steve and Brian put in $5 million of their own, just to add credibility to the business opportunity. But because of the time period, to answer your question, I'm just trying to give it context. Yeah. To, to, in order to make that deal happen for that acquisition with Turner during those early discussions, we, it was important, it was critical that we were able to close that deal fairly quickly.

We didn't have a year or two to try to figure it out. We had to move quickly. We had to get, we had to get the money quickly, had to have everything in place pretty quickly because that's what Turner wanted, right? We didn't want it to go out on the open market necessarily. So we move very quickly. Now, prior to moving forward to that deal after a letter of intent was signed and everything else, I did have conversations with FX, which at the time was a part of the Fox

portfolio. It was run by Peter Ligori and Kevin Riley. And I had had some initial conversations. The hookup or the catch in those conversations, the, the catch in those conversations, conversations is Brad Siegel wanted to include in whatever transaction we put together with FX and Fox, Brad Siegel wanted to include second run rights for Buffy the Vampire Slayer. That was a part of the deal that Brad wanted. That deal was never going to happen, or if it would have happened or could have happened,

it would have taken a year and a half to negotiate. That's a complex deal with a lot of third parties involved. It's not just like selling a car on eBay. You know, it's very complex. So even though we had an initial conversation, it wasn't going to work out. So to be specific to your question, Turner was the only option we had because of the time constraints, that was the only logical play. And it was a part of the deal. And we wouldn't have done the deal without the time constraints.

the rights to Nitro on Monday nights, Thursday on TBS. We would not have done the deal without it. I know we're not going to spend a lot of time talking about this, but I am curious, do you recall how you guys arrived at a $67 million number? I mean, that's the number we kept hearing. Do you know how you landed on that number? No, because I wasn't part of the team that put the valuation or the details of the money raised together.

Keep in mind of that $67 million that we raised, some of that was operating capital. So the actual purchase price, I couldn't tell you. That's a Brian Bedal question. But we raised a total of $67 million. But keep in mind, we did a lot of operating costs and expenses.

Right. So let's talk a little bit about another name that doesn't get talked about a ton, but we have heard the name, Stu Snyder. And the role, perhaps he played in the WWF's purchase of WCW. Do you know what went on there? I don't. And that's one of the, it's one of the most interesting facets of all of this, which, by the way,

I didn't really know about until I read Guy, Guy, Guy, Kevin's book. Yeah. Nitro, the incredible rising, inevitable fall of Ted Turner's WCW. It's a fantastic book. And, and you guy did so much. research and one of the people that that guy Evans interviewed I believe he interviewed Sue Snyder himself

I think that's one of the sketchiest aspects I said most interesting I didn't want to say sketchy but I think it's sketchy as fuck I think for adfree shows.com one day I got to uh I got to get Stu on the record to talk about all this I actually um became acquainted with

Stu Snyder this year. So cross your fingers. Let's see what was how did you become acquainted with Stu Snyder? I'll tell you all fair. It was I can't wait. Yeah. Yeah. I'm looking forward to that conversation, you know, when there's lights camera action. Yeah. Let's let's give it some backdrop. Now this is all, you know, my interpretation and what I absorb from reading Guy Evans book. Right. But Stu Snyder for people that have not heard that name before was an executive. in Turner Broadcasting, I believe Stu was the head of Turner Home Video. It was either Turner Home Video or Turner International. In either case, he was Turner Exec, not affiliated directly with WCW.

But somehow he found himself in the middle of negotiating this deal with WWE for the acquisition of WCW after the fusion deal and opportunity, fell apart. Then the conversations became between Turner and WWE. How and why Stu Snyder found himself in that brokerage position with regard to WCW and negotiating with WWE is a fascinating question to me. It doesn't make any sense on the surface. Now, there may have been really valid reasons for it that I just can't imagine, but to have. have a guy that's, you know, basically oversees your home video division all of a sudden brokering a deal for wrestling, uh, for the sale of a, of a property like that. And, and as odd

as that may be, at least it is to me, what's even weirder is immediately thereafter, Stu Snyder finds himself in the employee of WWE. Pretty cushy job too. Yeah, you think here's what I don't know. Conrad, you know, you and I think a lot of like. You're, you're a brilliant guy. You're smarter than I am. And you think you, you think and people talk about three dimensional thought processes. You've got a fourth, maybe even a fifth year that a lot of people don't have. But on this surface, isn't that kind of kooky? Well, it's worth mentioning too. Um, all Stu didn't take just any job with WWE. How's, how's president's saying? you want to come in or be president and C.O. Yeah. He's going to be the guy. He's going to actually be the guy. I think you had a little, a little of it maybe backwards. He, he went, he was a fraternity brother with a guy inside the Turner organization. Stu is the guy who actually makes this deal happen on the

W. W.W.F. side. Now, he did eventually go work for Turner. He was there for like nine years. But that didn't happen until 07, but Stu is, is captaining the ship of the WWF at the time and sees an opportunity to, or maybe his old college buddy saw an opportunity and said, hey, my frat brother here, he runs the biggest rival. Why don't I just see if maybe they want to do a deal? And to hear Jerry McDivitt tell it, because he told it at a live show with Bruce and I in Pittsburgh years ago, the same money that Turner had to pay WDivet. to settle the lawsuit about the, the likeness of Razor Ramon and Kevin Nash.

They just turned around and wrote a check back to just buy the all of all of WCW. So it's a fascinating story. I can't wait to talk about it in long form sometime. Uh, but yeah, we're going to have some fun with that. I want to make sure I got this. I want to make sure I got this straight Conner, because this will drive me bat shit all day long if I don't get it clear.

So you're saying Stu Snyder was president of W. WF prior to the acquisition? He was, he was president in 2000 and 2001. When did you leave? When, when was he? Because I remember Stu Snyder and Turner the day I got there in 1991. Really? So,

am I confused? I'm not sure. I know he was running, I mean, even if you pull up old Stu's LinkedIn, he's got his timeline up there on his link down. I'm going to have to do that. That'll keep me from going bad shit.

by the way somebody just asked where they can get the book and that's available on amazon let me see oh there it is erin sheen erin uh go to um amazon wcw nitro the incredible rise you'll find it it is a fascinating book probably the most detailed book you'll ever find on wcw uh of course guy evans had a second act in the wrestling book section and that's grateful also available on amazon the eric bischoff story sort of picks up where he left off after controversy creates cash. So listen, let's talk a little bit about, you know, the way this thing all shakes out. We understand it's going to essentially become, I mean, when you really think about what

you were buying, if you remove the television deal from the equation, it doesn't nearly have the same value to you. But there is the tape library. And I know neither you nor I are in that business. uh but boy that has become a valuable property and just to add context wbdb made a bunch of money on this long before the network was even a thing because remember now they made this purchase in 2001 think about all those DVDs the rise and fall of wcd the best moments of nitro blah blah blah so they crank out all that

stuff for years and years and years but on some level the the real value the long-term value of wcW and this is sale without the TV It's got to be the tape library, right? It's not the rings. It's not a handful of title belts or whatever it is. It's the tape library. And the folks you were working with who had made their money essentially doing a licensing deal or purchasing old tape libraries of old sports games and then selling

it to ESPN, they saw that maybe before a lot of other people. Still, I think most people assume or no, WWE got this deal of a lifetime just for the tape library. What would you value that WCW tape library at today in $2023 knowing what we know now? Oh, God, I don't know because I'm not in that business. So I have, I have no idea, but I can only imagine it's a multiple of what it was valued at at the time of the acquisition, because keep in mind, you know, streaming wasn't a thing. The only thing was DVD sales. And WCW, even during our peak, made very, very little

money on home video, whoever was in charge of it. It was one of those, it was, it's one of the downsides of being a part of a big conglomerate like Turner Broadcasting, or at least it was for WCW at the time, where you're really totally dependent, not 100%. You're about 80% dependent on in our case the Turner Home Video Division because they had all of the rights exclusively and they were the ones that theoretically at least on paper were out shopping it. Unfortunately for WCW, you know, we were at the very bottom of the bag that people would bring in to display their products, you know, so when we had somebody from Turner Home Video Sales go out making calls, the last thing that they're going to, you know, they're going to pitch

things that are part of the MGM. and film library, you know, whatever is the hottest is the things that they're going to try hardest to sell because that's where you're going to make the largest amount of your money. And in the eyes of a lot of, you know, Turner executives, WCW, first of all, they didn't want to pull it out of the bag. If somebody would have asked about, hey, I understand you guys carry WCW, do you have any DVDs, you know, for WCW, then, you know, the salesperson would probably be excited to talk about WCW.

But unless asked, it was the last thing any of the sales team. Ed Turner wanted to talk about, whether it was ad sales or home video. Now, that changed about 97, but by that time, you know, we'd already missed a great deal of opportunity because you've got to have your deals in place, your production, your inventory, your distribution. You're going to have all of that in place before you start making any money. So we never really made, we made nickels and dimes off of our home video products. So we, I say we, I don't think that Fusion had a lot of, they didn't put a lot of value in it.

You know, college sports is a little bit different than professional wrestling. I think it's a little easier for a mainstream media person and media entrepreneurs to see the potential value in legacy mainstream sports. But I don't think anybody really saw on the horizon any real value in professional wrestling legacy content. So I don't think they put too high value on it. It's amazing how, and this is something that doesn't get talked about because I think when a lot of people hear what you just said, Eric, about, well, you know, when these

Turner Home video executives will go out and make a pitch, we were the last thing they would pitch. We were at the bottom of the bag. I think a lot of people hear that who listen to this program and they say, well, I would have pitched it, blah, blah, blah. something worth mentioning that I don't think it's talked about enough and I'm not trying to turn this into a controversial conversation. I'm just being honest. A lot of those media reps, a lot of those salespeople, they were women.

And that doesn't get talked about a lot, but I've bought a ton of media in my life, radio, television, billboards, things like that. A lot of times, I would say well over 50% of the time, the majority of the time, those are female salespeople. Female salespeople sometimes have an easier time getting past the gatekeeper, getting to the decision maker. I don't know why that is. I just know that's the way it works. And I imagine that if you were a female salesperson, it would probably be near the bottom of the list of things that you would have confidence in selling, professional wrestling.

I understand it might be hot and blah, blah, blah. But it's also something that, at least in my household, it's always been, okay, I guess we have to watch wrestling. never have I ever had a circumstance where the lady in my life said oh honey can we watch wrestling tonight it's a totally different thing uh so people have the most confidence in selling what they believe and what they like and what they enjoy and what that's what their comfort level is going to be so i do think having perhaps a largely female sales force is going to be something that affects the way wrestling is presented and at the same time we know that this attitude has always existed

in wrestling and obviously everyone listening to this has heard this type conversation oh you still watch that stuff so if you were a male salesperson then it's like man did this guy ever grow up how does he not grow out of that the wrestling's for kit a lot of decision makers may have that attitude so it's not this thing that you're loud and proud and out front with now a lot of folks who are listening to this we think differently we understand hey that's closed-minded thinking some of us have wrestling t-shirts and hell i know a guy who walks around with the belt and hangs out and bow jangles for fun like I get that there are super fans however I just know that's not the

norm and it's not something in a in a business conversation that you probably lead with I don't want to say that shame is the right word but it's not going to be the mantel piece does that make sense Eric well it makes absolute sense I never really thought about it like that I my experience and kind of I'll be curious to see what you think about this long before I got into professional wrestling before I went to work for burn I was a sales manager for a food processor no I didn't sell meat door to door out of the back of a truck but it made for a good promo thanks Hulk people still think that's true by the way I was I was this I was a sales manager for this food processor and I had

a team of between 12 and 16 sales reps that I, and a lot of these sales reps came from other industries. I had sales, I hired salespeople from that previously worked at sales at IBM, you know, and Cargill. Cargill was a big food manufacturer. So I hired a lot of salespeople from different areas of business and with different levels of experience. Some of them very, very seasoned and successful, some of them brand new, and I trained them. I trained all of them specifically to what our product and service, more than any big service was. And one of the things I learned, and I had a mentor, his name was Irv Mann, and Irv was, and

Irv was one of those just, if you saw the movie Tin Man, right? I did. That was Irv Man. he was just close. I don't want to just close. He taught me so much and taught me how to close and taught me how to sell. And really, he was a phenomenal mentor. But Irvman said something to me early on when he finally made me a sales manager

because I was very successful there as a salesperson. And even though I was the youngest person in the company at the time, Irv would never hire anybody younger than 50 years. years old. He just didn't believe. He just didn't believe in it. And when he hired me, I was maybe all of 26. So I would, I guess an experiment or something. But we became very close and our families became close and friends. So he mentored me a lot. And one of the things that he said is Eric, some of the greatest salespeople I know are some of the laziest people in the world. And that kind of confused me because I know it's hard work and you know it's hard work.

that's been in sales professionally for any length of time knows it is a grind like any other grind. But I, and I asked him, I said, why do you feel that? I mean, that doesn't make any sense. Why are we hiring lazy people? He said, because lazy people will figure out the quickest way to make the most amount of money. Yes. And they'll move on to the next deal. Now, that kind of made sense to me.

It's a path of lease resistance. So if you're a sales rep male or female, a rep representative from Turner Broadcasting and you're out there pounding the pavement, so to speak. selling your Turner Broadcasting System Library, are you going to reach in the bag and try to sell the toughest thing to sell? Are you going to reach in a bag and sell the easiest thing to sell? That was a big part of it too. And again, keep in mind, and this is where the context of timing gets a little,

you have to pay close attention to it, especially if you're listening to me because I'm generally confused about it. But up until 1996, the culture within Turner broadcasting as a whole was anti-wrestling. People hated it. Our peers in Turner at just about every level were embarrassed to one degree or another that WCW was a part of the Turner Broadcasting portfolio. So you not only have a situation as you described where the individual out there,

particularly if it's a female that doesn't get wrestling, never watch wrestling, can't understand why people do. yeah, there's going to be a natural reluctance to pull that out of your bag. Combine that with the fact that culturally with internal broadcasting, nobody would have blamed you for not wanting to pull it out of the bag. Everybody would have sympathized with you.

So we were fighting kind of a cultural issue as well as the issue that you just talked about and the Irv Man Factor. You know, it's just a lot harder to sell. At that time, things are different now. At that time, wrestling was kind of looked down upon by mainstream entertainment media. Oh, it's still for sell.

it still looked down upon i mean it just is you know we uh the wife and i have settled into a new place uh down in pensacola and right around the corner from us is this restaurant that's been given all these fabulous reviews and and everybody's hyped it up to us oh you got to go there uh so we went and a huge weight it was worth it it was fantastic had a great time and then a pal came to town and he said hey man we've been here we haven't had any good seafood where can we okay I got a place we'll go over there and you know what we'll sit at the bar and uh and we'll have them turn on uh tv because it was i forget it was a ew or if it was uh w w but there's nobody at the bar literally he and i are the only two people and this older lady who was the bartender there

i said hey uh they had it on a random golf channel replay can we switch it to whatever it was fox or tbs or whatever it was and she goes yeah so she turns it on and then says, oh, I'm not doing that and changes it right back. And I'm like, wait, what was that? Yeah, I'm not showing that here. Why not? I'm not, we're not watching wrestling. That, that still exists.

Um, and there was a subsequent conversation and it was fine, but that still exists. And to your point, I want to hear about the subsequent, I want to hear about the subsequent conversation, bro. You just glossed right over that. How did that go? Uh, we watched wrestling. we watch for us no man i want deeds come well the deal is it's like you know um i'm in an awkward spot because the person i was having

dinner with is a person who you and i work with uh on our podcast business and you know this was an awkward spot that here i am in business with this person this is how they make their living as well we're gonna we're gonna watch that and and we did but it was it was one of those things where it's like if this is offensive to anyone, if anyone comes up and is offended, I'm going to have to change the channel. And I was like, no, I understand. And so after there was this big interaction back and forth, the other bartender, also a lady, comes over and says, I just can't believe y'all still watch this stuff. Both of these women are in their 50s, by the way. And then a few minutes later, one of the staff members, either a busboy or server or somebody

like that is hustling by the bar comes to a dead stop and he says oh i remember what it was now he goes oh my god a w dynamite he was so excited and i said well don't get too excited brother because if anybody complains we're going to have to change the channel so it went the total opposite direction of where she was expecting she thought having some random replay of a golf tournament two months before was perhaps more of what this crowd would want to see when in fact there was no crowd there's no one here it's a Wednesday night now that makes sense because why I was like why would the bar be empty on a Friday night it's a Wednesday night but dude I had multiple people go by and say wow hey W's on TV it's like it's not this niche thing that

people imagine it is but it is not the the the apple of the eye of a certain segment of Americans and those typically would be buyers or certainly sellers in the in the ad market and just to give another example of salespeople in that world being for lack of a better word lazy I appreciate that you use the word I might have picked a different one but I think that a lot of people just they become order takers the path of least resistance so whenever someone was coming into my office to sell me advertising they would always want to pitch whatever the new was hottest thing was. I'll never forget when Walking Dead first got hot. They wanted to come in and tell me why I needed to advertise for

mortgages during Walking Dead. And I said, well, why would I, why would I want to advertise inside of Walking Dead? Well, because everybody's watching it. Yeah, but not everybody is my customer. You've got a lot of teenagers and kids. And I needed a target, you know, when people talk about, because we have this conversation a lot in wrestling, but I don't think a lot of our listeners really understand when they say, oh, the rating in the demo, man, do you realize how loosey-goosey those words are? Because if we're talking about the demo, do you know how many times somebody ever pitched me anything in media and said, we're 17th in the demo?

Never. They would always come in and say we're number one in the demo. Now, if you had to drill down, you might find out, well, the demo is women 18 to 34 who were single and have cats who go to sleep at 9 o'clock. night that's our number one in the demo there's a there's a difference between number one in the demo you know adults 12 plus and and and and all adults and women and men and this age group and that subset and who were who were streaming and everyone always positions themselves as being number one but as an advertiser I knew even back then I don't need everybody to hear

about this opportunity for the mortgage I need a certain section a certain demographic if you will, to understand what my offering is. I'm saying all that to say, the people who were buying that, and more importantly, the people who were selling that, that being wrestling, they believed that wrestling was as niche as it gets. And I think that's the reason that there was some apprehension inside the Turner organization because, well, everyone watches CNN. Who doesn't love baseball?

Everyone loves baseball. of America's pastime. Meanwhile, there's this stuff that your son watches when he's five to 12 years old and then he grows out of it. I think that was probably the attitude. Like, this is such a silly niche thing. It's like, okay, your kid ages out of Barney and he gets into Hulk Hogan. That's the way I believe it was probably presented a lot of times, Eric.

Yeah. And you know what's interesting about your, and I'm going back to your story, and I'm going to make a couple of assumptions here, but I bet money I'm right on. A couple of them. I would imagine knowing where you were or where you are, where your home is in Pensacola, Florida, if you found a nice little restaurant, something suggests to me that the people around you, your neighbors, your community are fairly upscale, wealthy people that you would typically see sitting in the lounge of a private country club.

Am I correct, sir? Well, here's the thing on that. you know, I live on the beach there. So there's a new set of neighbors every seven days. So this is a vacation town. People are in town to spend money. But yeah, to rent a house on the beach or a condo on the beach there, that's a pretty, it's a good size investment.

Yeah. So it's an affluent, transient environment. You've got a lot of people coming out, but I would bet that those people have a lot of money. and the type of people, if you want to create a demo here for this conversation. Yes. Probably 45 to 65, probably in the mid to high six figure category, well-to-do people that you would expect to see at a lounge in a country club. Fair.

Fair? All right. So that bartender in that restaurant, it was probably a nice upscale restaurant, that bartender is used to serving. the type of people that she would typically see at a country club. Yes. And in her mind, she's thinking, well, my customers will never want to watch wrestling, right? What she doesn't know is something that you and I and Dave Green and a lot of us that are involved in your little podcast, your big podcast empire,

is once you get to know who your audience is, from my own experience, I like to make random calls, you know, once a month or so, ad-free shows family members just to surprise them and get to know them and all that. I can't tell you how many times that I've talked to people. Oh, yeah, I'm a, I'm a lawyer and I argue cases before the Supreme Court. Oh, I'm a rocket scientist and I'm experimenting with a new launch in Southern California. I mean, the amazing thing that I've experienced is being a part of your team is that, and I've been in the business, I had been in the business for 32 years before I ever. step in front of a microphone for a podcast.

Even I was shocked at the amount of people that no one would ever suspect watch professional wrestling. And I was waiting for you as you're telling your story instead of the, you know, somebody coming out from her back and going, hey, AEW Dynamite, I was expecting guys come in with their polos and their trophy wives and their rope, no offense, Rolexes and all that and sit down and go, oh, I can't wait, wrestling's on. because that wouldn't surprise me either by the right it's uh people people think they know what the wrestling people that are perhaps in the media business think they know what the wrestling audience is

but until they do a deep dive they don't have a clue and they would be shocked but that wasn't the case back when stew schneider and company was selling wcd i mean this disrespectfully i know how that i mean respectfully i know i don't mean any disrespect when i say this but i know And I know how this sounds. But the thing is, the lady had a preconceived notion of what, quote, unquote, her clientele wanted to see when, in fact, she was not a member of her clientele, but she had a preconceived notion of what they wanted to see. She wasn't, she wasn't watching the golf channel.

And by the way, there was no one in the bar. Again, I want to repeat, it was me and one other guy, the guy I brought with me. later we were joined by another fellow who was exactly in the demo you described and he watched very intently he didn't comment but he didn't look away he wanted to know what was going on and inevitably that happens at my favorite watering hole down here in huntsville you've been to the boot before you've seen there's four TVs behind the bar and dray knows whenever i'm there hey if it's monday or wednesday or friday switch it over one of the four TVs to wrestling inevitably no one one is watching the other three TVs and they're all making conversation about what they see

on the wrestling show. Some are good, some are bad, but no one's made a comment about what's on the other three TVs at all. It's background noise. People put it up there. So if you come in with your wife and you really don't want to talk to your wife and you two have been bitching each other all day long, but now you're hungry because you've worked up an appetite, bitching at each other's company, but you've got no choice. So you go out to dinner, you sit at the bar and there's something up there, usually the sounds turned down, which makes sense if you're the bar, and you're just staring, you're just staring at the television so you don't have to talk to the person that you came with. It's background noise. It's a distraction. That's the only

reasons. People don't go to a bar to watch TV unless it's a game or to answer something like that. If you're just casually going out for a bite to eat, you don't give up. But what's on TV normally, you know, it brings up a pet peeve. This has nothing to do with anything we're talking about but my cratoms kicking in and the caffeine's starting to keep in i love it you're just going to have with me strap in muckerfathers here we go um when i go into a bar or a restaurant and it's similar to what you just described oh man this cratim is kicking in it's similar environment to what you describe it's very slow there's very few if any customers in there and i walk in and the bartender or the manager has this music

cranked up that I'm sure is really great, you know, at a club, like techno, rock, whatever it's called, techno, I mean, just blaring. It's like if you own a restaurant, people, take, take some advice from this conversation. If there's anybody out there in the Ad Free Show's world or outside of the Ad Free Show's family, if you own a restaurant or you manage a restaurant, restaurant, program your music for your customer, not for the 18-year-old Washington. ditches in the back. It just pisses me off.

And I've walked out of restaurants for that very reason. Or you walk in and it doesn't matter. If I'm the first one at a restaurant and the music player and everybody's prepping, get ready for, cool, I get that. I used to work at a restaurant. I watched dishes. I was a cook. I get it.

But once you open up and now you're expecting to bring people in, play the music that your demo likely would want to hear, something kind of middle of the road. Yes. Don't assume because you like something, or in this case, don't like something that your customers are going to feel the same way you feel. That's a big mistake. It's a big mistake if you're a television producer. Don't write and create to entertain yourself or to appeal to the, or to satisfy the things

that you individually are interested in. It's a lesson I learned from Ted Turner. Produce television, create television for the masses. yes you need to scratch some inches along the way but you want the biggest broadest audience you can if you want to be successful just like if you're managing a restaurant you want the biggest broadest section of audience you can to come in and eat in your restaurant don't play music designed for an 18 year old techno pop freak sorry so listen we've got on our soapbox we understand now that wrestling is is a much bigger opportunity that maybe people give it credit for

but maybe not within the Turner organization. This is something that people have decided is less than and they're going to offload it. And we know that that's how it goes. You know, they wind up getting a steal Vince McMahon and WWE. And we see the raw nitro simulcast, which is still one of the craziest things in the history of pro wrestling, March 26, 2001. There for a minute, you're seeing WWE programming on a Turner network.

work on WCW Monday Nitro. I know we've covered that episode before, but as a reminder, did you watch that episode live? No, I didn't. It's got to be weird to see it. I haven't even seen. I don't think I've seen the entire episode. We may have covered it.

I don't recall seeing the show that I wasn't a watch while I remember correctly. It's funny because I saw a friend of ours the other day post on social media that he found a ticket from that show in Panama City and sent it off and got it slaved and graded and all that sort of thing. And I think, you know what? That was a cool collectible to have, but that's kind of from a bygone era because long gone are the days of needing paper tickets. Now all you needs game time and you can actually make it a game time decision. If you heard that before, right, a game time decision. That means it's last minute. You can do this last minute. that is a big deal and I just want to reiterate there's a lot of times when

something's happening and you're too busy right life gets in the way you miss it so like I'm not necessarily a huge jelly roll fan but man he is blown up here in the south he's right up the road I'm a huge jelly roll fan oh his music is and his story is awesome sorry did me to throw you off you know what's funny you know my buddy Brad Nashville that you've met before my crazy friend he's like really good friends with jelly roll and he's been trying to put me on jelly roll for like 10 years and we just never actually cross paths or anything and now he's like the number one artist around so he's coming to huntsville and the tickets are completely sold out

i know how i can get tickets though game time you don't have to be at the front of the line you don't have to know the on sale date don't stress out game time's got you covered in more ways than one yes they can get you tickets to events the same day as the event you hear me the same day as the event. It's not just concerts. It's not just wrestling. Football, basketball, baseball, concerts, comedy, theater. If it's a ticketed event, game time can hook you up and you don't have to plan months in advance. You can do it the same day as the event. So they got you covered and all that. But here's my favorite two pieces of business about game time. Number one, they eliminate the risk of is this a good seat. I can't tell you how many times I've taken a look at a seat map.

and said, oh, man, that'll be a fantastic seat. I want to be in this section. And then I get there, and it sucks. It is not the view I thought it was. I'm disappointed. I can make sure that I mitigate my risk of disappointment because game time has a seat view option. So you take a look and you can see, all right,

this is what it will look like. Now, obviously, it's a graphic, but you get the idea. Okay, here's where everything's going to be. Boom, that is a great view. I want that ticket. I love game time for that. But I love this the most of all. the game time guarantee you see i want to know the peace of mind i want the piece of mind of knowing

i got a good deal you may have figured that out for me by listening to this show i want a good deal well here's their guarantee if you find tickets in the same section and the same row for less money game time will credit you a hundred and ten percent of the difference think about that a hundred and ten percent of the difference coming back to you because you found tickets somewhere else cheaper it won't happen game time guarantees it and it just doesn't get it easy any easier than this it's literally two clicks two taps and you're all set they do it right on your phone it's an as the game time app i want that one yep i'll pay for it bam i've got the tickets on my phone i don't even have to dig through my email so snag the tickets without the stress using game time

download the game time app create an account and use the code weeks for $20 off your first purchase terms apply again create an account and redeem the code weeks for $20 off download game time today last minute tickets lowest price guaranteed so eric let's talk about uh you know we know now that that Vince has his arms around the thing he's closed the deal he's on freaking nitro he's plugging wrestlemania uh what a great time to be alive for him you don't even have the stomach to watch it live i understand but i can't help but wonder what if when he had to go to Vince McMahon in September or he had to go to Brett Hart in September of 1997 and say I can't honor your contract we're hemorrhaging cash

WCW's kicking our ass see if you can get that old deal back if he had not been able to secure Mike Tyson and the ball never really turned the other way and the momentum that WCW had just devastated WWE. Do you think there was a scenario in late 97 perhaps early 98 if none of that Tyson and Austin McMahon thing took off that Ted would have tried to make a play to actually purchase WWE? Oh, I think he would have wanted to. And I think he would have if that opportunity existed. Um, I have, you know, honestly, I clearly haven't talked to Ted about this or never did talk to Ted about it. But absolutely, knowing Ted's appetite for acquisitions and love for wrestling, had there been an opportunity to purchase WWE, I have no doubt that Ted

would have been all over, particularly in 97 and 98, when WCW validated Ted's belief that it could be a substantial part of the portfolio and a profitable division in and of itself. So let's talk about if that would have happened, hypothetically, if the worm turns, as we like to say, and it goes the other way. and you're purchasing WWE, it would have been a totally different look and feel and probably opportunity for an invasion angle. And let's examine why. As I understand it, the WWF, in an attempt to not upset their own salary structure, which

we'll talk about in a minute, they only purchased the contracts of Lance Storm, Chuck Palumbo, Sean O'Hare, Mark Jindrack, Mike Awesome, Elix Skipper, Shane Helms, Shannon Moore, Stacey Keebler, Chavo Guerrero, Mike Sanders, Hugh Morris, Sean Stasiak, Kaz Hayashi, Mr. Yang, and Billy Kidman. So we would see a lot of these talents. As you see there, that's actually a shot, even though it says Monday Nitro. Those are actually wrestlers inside the Astrodome there in Houston for WrestleMania 17. Now, the language I want to be careful with here is, as to not upset the salary structure.

As a reminder, Vince is not doing the huge money guarantees that WCW is. Now, he does. Can I ask you, Conrad, I don't mean to interrupt, but when did, my understanding is, I don't have a clear understanding. That's why I'm asking a question. Do you know when Vince started making downside guarantees? Well, there's been a lot of debate about that. Of course, uh,

Hall and Nash have always said that, that they, they help bring that to the forefront and make that a thing for Vince. I have always been of the opinion that downside guarantees really started with like Lex Lugar and the road warriors and Jim Crockett promotions. But certainly, uh, I believe Mark Mero is the first person to get a, a downside guarantee.

Now, that might not be factual, but that's certainly the way it's been discussed with Mick Foley and I on his podcast, Foley's pod, because if you recall, Steve Austin and Mick Foley and Mark Mero all started around the same time, not the exact same time, but within a handful of months. And during that time, Austin and Foley came in on the typical WWE so-and-so dates for so-and-so amount of money. I mean, we're talking like $150 for eight TV tapings or some such. silliness versus Merrill comes in on a several hundred thousand dollar guarantee i don't have it in front of me maybe it's three or four hundred thousand dollars whatever it is he got some sort of a guarantee that austin and foley did not and foley's been pretty out front about saying he had a lot of animosity and professional jealousy towards mark merrow thinking how is that guy worth more the reality is merrow had more leverage merrow was leaving a wcw contract to go get

a WWF contract, candidly, Cactus was already out of WCW, as was Austin, so they didn't have the leverage that Mero did, but my understanding is at this point, so we'll call it March of 2001,

the top end, the most anybody could get on a downside guarantee from Vince McMahon was $1 million. So folks like Stone Cold and The Rock and The Undertaker and Triple H, they're on a million dollar a year downside. Can I, and again, to interrupt you? Yeah. What I was most curious about is when

WWE, and I, I realized that we're guaranteed contracts, probably in NWA with Lexa Lugar, as you pointed out, certainly in WCW. I, everybody that was working in WCW when I got there was on a guaranteed contract. Right. But I was curious as to when was the first time and who was the first person where Vince broke his typical, uh, revenue sharing model and offered downside guarantees. And it sounds like Merrill might have been the first, right? I think that's probably March or April, probably March of 1996, Mark Merrow. Okay. Interesting. Is that, does that surprise you? No, it doesn't surprise me at all. Um, you know, I know, I know Paul White, when Paul White left WCW, whenever that was, uh, 98 or 99, his guarantee was a million

dollars that was that was a number that you know if i wanted to keep paul i had to match and i chose not to um yeah that would have been a february about two years later february of 99 i believe is when that happened um when he finishes up with you and starts with vince so let's just call it what it is the hogan's the kevin nashes the goldbergs all these guys have a downside guarantee that exceeds what the maximum would be uh for the w not only that I'm sure there were people in the WWF organization who would say wait a minute I'm at the same level that guy was on on Nitro but I'm on raw and we won and he's making this so therefore I need to make more that would not have been a problem for you so in this

fantasy booking this fantasy conversation we're having here if you had gotten your hands on WWE meaning WCW won the war W.W.E. now has been sold. You'd have a handful of those million dollar guarantees, but you'd probably be able to dig out that value really easy with an undertaker and a Triple H and a, and a, in a rock and an Austin. That would have been something that you could have probably pulled the trigger on. And everybody else has a much more reasonable dollar figure about. It is interesting to think what if, because maybe instead of, again, no disrespect, the Sean O'Hare's and the Hugh Morris's and the Sean Stasiacs, if you could have

had that level of talent come over. Because I think when most fans think about this invasion angle and how it was quote unquote bungled, it's because it didn't have the star power, right, from WCW, but that wouldn't have been a problem going the other direction. Yeah, that would be like acquiring WWE, but the only talent that comes with the package is the guys that signed up two weeks ago at NXT. Right. You know, I mean, it's just, and again, no disrespect to that.

And that category of people, that shot that you gave us there and in the names that you ran and I was trying to, you know, categorize them in a way. I don't think any one of those people made more than 150 grand a year and some were probably less than that. So that wasn't an expensive package to bring in or and or justify. It also speaks to, well, I want to ask you, what do you think with the benefit of hindsight? I just want to add some context to what Vince has. going on in his life at the time he's purchasing wcw he's also going to have the biggest

russomani ever that he's ever had russamania 17 uh he's also recently just gone public and and and now that's a whole new thing that he's he's out here pitching and and and juggling a lot of balls in that regard oh by the way the xFL's a thing now that he's going to venture out and do i didn't he have a didn't he have the restaurant and uh absolutely where and he's trying he's thinking about doing the the film studio stuff he's tinkered with the idea of buying a casino my man is stretched really really really really really thin to say the least but i wonder do you think it's because he didn't have his eye on the ball in that regard or did he have so much momentum had he convinced himself i'll be able to make it work i mean i've got

the might as touch right now i'll be able to make this work even without the star power or do you think by that point he believed the brand is where it is like we've heard in the last i don't know 10 or 15 years that vince is quote unquote not interested in making another star the size of stone cold or the rock or hulk hogan because he believes and probably accurately that the brand is is where the value is so like when a when a big time fight is sold yes they still call it ufc 204 but there's the two names afterwards that really matter. And when Floyd Mayweather fights, they don't call it something else. They don't say the WBF presents. It's Mayweather versus so-and-so sort of thing. And it did feel like there for a while, especially in the last several years, it's become more about, well,

WWE's coming to town. It's not about Hulk Hogan is wrestling Randy Savage at WWE's coming to town. Do you think he was sold on that and he thought, I've got the WCW brand. What does it matter who's in there. I mean, why do you think he didn't, I'm just trying to find the critical flaw and the timing of this, because you and I say a lot on this show that timing is everything. And if Vince had a little more patience and didn't rush right into this, now wrestling fans certainly know, well, WCW was on TV and now they're not. So the longer it sits, I could see why you would think, well, maybe the more value that the brand loses. But if you, you just push out a half-ass version of it, it's sort of, you know, six and one half.

You're not, you're not. Look, there was an established WCW audience for several years prior to the acquisition. WCW was the dominant televised wrestling show in the country for a couple of years. And they had to head the head. They had all the boat, you know, our boat floated higher, so did WWEs because of the war. We've talked about all that. But there are a certain number of people that represented that brand, Sting, you know, Hulk Hogan will put him in a kind of, he was off in a category of his own, because he probably still represented WWE more than he really represented WCW. Right.

He spent more time there, right? So put, put, put, put, put Hulk and even Randy Savage off to the side. You've got your core WCW talent. Rick Flair was much more closely associated with WCW than he was WWE, even though Rick spent some time in WWE. He's a WCW guy. He's an NWA guy. He's that guy.

a lot, you know, Lugar, the Steiner brother, so many, you can just run down, you know, the top 15 people at the top of the roster. All of those people represented the WCW brand, myself included, to a lesser extent. They didn't have any of those people. So you've got the brand, and if there was a critical flaw, it would be assuming that the audience believed just because you had the three letters, you know, WCW, that the audience would follow and the audience is not going to follow. Obviously, they didn't follow because they didn't have the talent that represented the brand

so that the audience could relate to it so that it felt like, or it could possibly feel, I should say, like a real invasion and a real conflict because those key talents that were driving the viewership for WCW for such a long period of time, if they're not on the roster, they're not on the show you got a bunch of people who yeah I kind of think I've heard of them and maybe I've seen a match or two but I don't really care I don't relate to them because they don't relate to WCW in the audience's mind if that makes sense you know and the thing is I just I wonder you know is from events perspective is it arrogance is it lack of patience they not have his eye on the ball because it feels like to me to sort of do

this invasion angle with the roster he's got and we know he's going to negotiate buyouts if you will with Booker T and DDP and that goes a long way but still the invasion gets kicked off with Lance Storm jumping in the ring jumping out of the crowd jumping in the ring and super kicking Perry Saturn I love Lance Storm he was one of my absolute favorite wrestlers in ECW thought he crushed it for you guys in WCW. Big fan of his. I could watch a Lance Storm match every day until I die. However, I can't help but think about when you did the invasion,

here's a guy who was always at the top of the card in Razor Ramon, and he's going to come down the aisle and just jump in and cut a promo and take over. And then the next person who makes that switch over with him and joins him is the former main event and the former WrestleMania main event, and the former world champion diesel, you've got really two tippy type guys. I don't think it would have had the same effect if we had

someone of Lance Storm's stature on the card from the WWF. I know the way that sounds. I don't mean for it too. I love Lance Storm. Lance is a smart guy. He understands. He knows what you mean. And I think our audience is too.

And look, you're right. But Scott came over and not only was Scott. as you said, you know, top, top of the roster, obviously a big star, but he came over and he created a question. He didn't come over and jump into an angle, right? He came over and made people go, what the hell is going on? And we tripled down on that when we brought Kevin Nash in and really created the question, you know, the intrigue. So it wasn't just an invasion for the sake of an invasion. And we could have done it like everybody else does it.

Like Vince did it with Lance Storm. We could have just shot an angle. Shot an angle isn't building a story. It's an incident that you build from that point. But there was no backstory. There was no mystery. There was no intrigue. There was no, what's he doing here?

There were so many elements missing from the WWE, WCW invasion premise right from the get-go. Talent, as we've just discussed. But not only just talent, it's just throwing them out there. It's the, you know, it's the wrestling version of throwing shit against the wall and seeing if it sticks. Let's just do it. Let's just, you know, put it together and let's see how the audience reacts. Sometimes you get, sometimes that works. Sometimes it works great, but more often than not, it doesn't.

There was no story to it. It wasn't just a talent issue. It was just to let's throw it up against the wall and see if it sticks issue in my opinion. That's exactly right. And, you know, it would be akin to me, you know, if instead of Scott Hall coming down the steps, it was Shane Douglas or Jeff Jarrett. Yeah, they had been on the other show. Yeah, they had enjoyed success on the other show,

but they weren't positioned as a top guy. And when this invasion gets kicked off and it's Lance Storm, and to your point, it's not Rick Flair, it's not Sting, it's not Diamond Dallas Page, it's not Booker T. And we know we're going to get there with some of those guys. But imagine if, you know, the first time we see anything about this sort of potential invasion, it's Goldberg, Spearing the Rock or Stone Cold, man, this whole thing looks a whole lot different.

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What? That's rare to see those words touch. man has no shame no shame in his game at all timing is everything you know we've spent a little time talking about that already um i know he wants to make the most of this uh opportunity this investment if you will and he's probably realizing i got all these guys on the roster if i debut any of them i won't get a second chance to do this i can't necessarily walk it back if you were vince what would you have done differently would you have doubled down on the investment tried to go negotiate some of these contracts i mean you probably had an idea that some

of those guys were not ever going to do that and to put that in proper context hey mr nash would you like to continue to getting two million dollars to just check the mail or would you like to cut it in half and work your ass off i mean who who goes for that so that's really a tough sell if you were in that spot what would you have done i could have been in that spot and i turned it down I mean, I got a call ahead of the invasion and from JR and had an opportunity. And I passed, and it was a timing issue. It wasn't, you know, angry or resentful or any of that. It was just timing.

What would I have done? I would have waited. I wouldn't have rushed it knowing that I didn't have any of the key talents that represented the brand. and I would have tried to negotiate. Even if you wouldn't have gotten a Nash who would have elected to stay home, because that was a smart thing to do. He's not risking any injury.

He's at home with his family. Doesn't have to go through the grind of traveling, doesn't have to go through the grind because people think, oh, man, you'd be a part of WWE. Oh, it would be awesome. It's a freaking grind. And when you're 6-11 and 300-some-odd pounds, it's even more of a grind,

just moving from place to place. So I think that Kevin Ashes, the Scott Halls, Sting could have been a, Sting could have, they could have worked something out with Sting if they worked hard enough at it and gave it some time. Because a guy like Sting, and I'm not certainly not speaking for him, I don't want to misrepresent that Sting and I have talked about this. This is just me speaking as someone who knew Sting pretty well and was pretty close. in for a long time. And I understood how Sting processed things. Sting would have been very reluctant, in my opinion, to cross the river, so to speak, not because of the money, because

Sting really wasn't making that much. Sting was making a lot of money at the time, but not as much as some of the other names that you mentioned. Right. Sting would have been affordable at that time, particularly given the size of the guarantees that Vince was giving out at that time. Vince would have had to convince Steve Borden that he wasn't going to be made an example of because much like Turner executives had a perception of WCW and all that that we've already discussed, the perception within WCW is that, oh yeah, if you go to WWE, he's going to prove that, you know, WWE is superior and their talent is superior.

You're just going to get buried and they're going to embarrass you. And once you're done having fun with you, then if you still stick around, maybe they're going to do something with you. But the perception was there was going to be this like initiation process and it would be ugly and miserable and you wouldn't enjoy it. Vince could have overcome that with Steve. It would have taken time. And I think once you landed a Steve Borden as the Sting character and one or two others

like Sting, even if they were kind of like, lower on the roster, less exposed, maybe less made of us under the belt, whatever, not to be disrespectful. But all you needed was one anchor like a sting. If sting would have come, Lex Lugar would have come, right? Now that Lex Lugar is there and Sting's there, guess we'd follow shortly thereafter, the Steiner brothers. Now you've got enough. And if I would have made a different decision, perhaps I would have been leading that charge. Then you've got an invasion. that at least the audience feels like it could be true. Right.

Or could relate to the angst in the conflict that would exist between that WCW roster and those names that I just represented. You could have created a conflict that would have felt real and believable, much like the NWO story felt real and believable in the very beginning. You could have done that, but it would have required a little more time, a little more salesmanship and a little more money but not a lot more it's uh it's interesting to think you know what could have been if you had your druthers you know is there a a dream way to kick this off like let's say you're in charge we're we're seeing that and listen let's add

this context in here too yes the w f was hotter than ever we'll call it march 2001. But at the very beginning of April, when Steve Austin turned heel and joined Vince McMahon at the end of WrestleMania, business started falling. Tickets were down, ratings were down. It wasn't the same. And I know that Austin was feeling like, hey man, I've kind of done it all, everything I need to do of I don't want to get stale here. I don't want to lose this momentum. I need to keep it fresh. Maybe I can switch sides and have a whole new crop of opponents that makes sense but he perhaps was asking for that without the vision of what was possible with this invasion and at the time nobody really knew what that was going to even look like or what it was i mean they literally uh made that acquisition within a week prior

to russomania so if his brain was already i'm going to turn heel this is what i'm doing it's hard to go to your top star and say well we're not doing that now um and especially that star that top star and with all the other stuff Vince has going on he probably thinks yeah why not let's make our top star happy let's keep him happy but now it's like okay we start to see the business slip it slips in May it slips in June and Vince doesn't want to lose this momentum and he thinks okay I'm looking for new ideas I need a shot in the arm I need something fresh we're going to do the invasion angle so they start it now if if you I realize circumstances would have to be a lot different.

But if you had the opportunity to do that and you maybe can't go out and cut deals with everybody who's on the sideline getting paid from Turner, is there one guy you would have said, okay, this is the guy to kick it off with. I'm not going to invest in all of them. I don't want to upset the apple cart with my current roster, but I got to have one star to kick this thing off right. Who would it be and why? Sting.

Because I think other than Rick Flair and really the reason, Sting was, aside from Hogan, for the largest portion of the existence of WCW, Rick Flair and Sting represented that brand. And I think at that, particularly at that point in time, it would have been Sting. And can you imagine, too, if it was Sting and he brought that spooky, Kooky Crow character along with him? Yeah. And kind of not replicate, but extend the kind of image.

and mystique that the crow character brought so that he started showing up at wwe events and stalking certain people or whatever i mean i that would be the guy for me if i was in business shoes at that time and i could only pick one guy if i understood your question correctly it absolutely would have been staying so how would you how would you creatively now we're going to have a fantasy book here Sting's going to appear on Raw, we got that. What's he going to do? How do we, how do we kick him off?

How do we introduce him to this WWF audience that's never seen him before? Who was he attacking or watching from the rafters or how would you make that debut? So what, what time of year was this? When, when sting would have appeared? When was the invasion launched in WWE? Let's, let's call it summer of 2001. So whether you want to say June or July, we'll go with it. So I would have thought, I would have looked at a calendar and said, okay, what's my main event three months from now?

Right. I would have taken three months to build the backstory. Act one would have taken a month. And let's say in act one, let's just go with the example I gave of using, utilizing the sting's cookie crow character, spooky cookie crow character. after the acquisition, after the announcement, I would have gone radio silence with regards to anything that had to do with WCW. Would not have talked about it, wouldn't told all the talent, not to talk about it, just let the dust settle on the acquisition.

When the time was right, stings my only guy, I would have full rights to that crow character. I would say, okay, who do I want him in the main event with it, whatever pay-per-view would have been 30 days from the date that it started. And if you're going to go, why not go for the biggest? Let's just use it. Let's use Undertaker as it. Would that work, though? But those two characters work against each other.

Let me give you this heads up, this context. King of the Ring is at the end of June 2001. Steve Austin finds himself in the main event. Of course, he is the, he's the champ. And he's going to be working with Chris Benoit and Chris Jerry. And out of nowhere, Booker T interferes and tosses Steve Austin through the announced table, nearly costing him the title. Now, he doesn't cost him the title, but he at least interfered.

And it's the first time we would see Booker T. This is on pay-per-view. So the next day on Raw, Shane McMahon marches out and says, hey, everybody knows I bought WCW, and our intention is to invade the WWF. And now we're off to the races. See, right there, it's not believable. Right there. You just took, first of all, it was throwing shit up against a while with Booker.

No backstory, no intrigue, no anticipation, no buildup. Just boom, let's do this and surprise everybody. And don't get me wrong. Sometimes that works really well. But in a situation like this, you need to build some, what's going to happen? We've got to tune in next, what's going on? You've got to create some chatter and mystique about it. keep going. I'm sorry. Keep going. No, I'm just curious. You know, if you're going to

debut sting, would you've done it at King of the Ring on pay per view? I probably would not. I would want to have that happen in front of the biggest audience. I could. I would want it to happen on Raw. And would you, would you have sting attack your top guy and Steve Austin? Because at that point, Steve Austin's a bad guy. I, because to me, like when you said it would be sting. Just me right there. Let me, I got a sap here. Because, because membrane can only function at a certain pace. Sure, sure, sure. Steve Austin and Sting doesn't work for me because Steve Austin's a heel.

And Sting is the baby face from the former WCW that they were at war with. So there's, there's a creative disconnect there for me. You would have to address that somehow. Well, you picked it. So I was going with what you picked. I wouldn't have picked Sting. If I'm going to attack Steve Austin, I would want somebody I could have a backstory with Steve Austin with somehow.

But see, that's where, you know, I would pick Sting as the guy for WCW to build the invasion story around. I would, Sting would be my general. He would be leading the charge and I would build everything behind Sting. Right? So the matchup, I don't know that it would be with Austin. The matchup would

have to be a story that isn't, because there's no story between Sting and Austin. There's no reason. What would the motivation be for Sting to show up and all of a sudden defend the good name of WWF? It doesn't make sense to me.

so what would you do i again i think i would i would i would sit back i would surround myself with some people that were better at this than i am but first of all sit around and think about what's the best story moving forward what's the best main event three months from now and and sting would have to have a motivation right to come out of the to come out of nowhere and start stalking and taunting and teasing that he's interested in what's going on perhaps perhaps it could have been a WCW sacrificial lamb and Booker T wouldn't have been the right one because Booker T's too big of a star but if someone from WCWE WCW who had been of less stature stature is not the right word you know what I mean yeah lower down the roster

than sting somebody were to fight okay here we go here we go go go go go go go go go go go go go silent, no discussion of WCW. Eventually start talking about, well, you know, we've acquired WCW and we finally got, you know, the WCW roster going. Now that wouldn't work because it's an invasion angle. Never mind. No talk about

WCW. All of a sudden we see somebody come in, not Booker T, try to get involved in a WWE match. A baby face, not a heel, right? A baby face. Come in from WCW finally getting an opportunity in WWF and gets

not as a WCW representative, a former WCW star quote unquote, some money that everybody would recognize finally gets an opportunity. The first one and JR, whoever was doing color and play by play at the time could say, oh, yeah, you remember a couple months ago, we acquired WCW, former WCW star, blah, blah, blah, blah, enters the ring and just gets trashed, gets hammered, double team, triple team, gets beat to a pulp, almost like a gang initiation. If you can survive this, then you're on the team kind of thing.

Same thing happens a week later or two weeks later. And all of a sudden, it's obvious to the audience that indeed WWF, the heels are absolutely destroying some of this young talents that's just trying to get a gig in WWF. Now there's a reason for saying to go, well, this is fucked up. I'm not going to let this happen. And now you've got Sting showing up and then bring in Shane McMahon and say, I agree with Sting. This is not the right way to do this or whatever the verbiage would be. But whatever the motivation is, there would have to be motivation for Sting to show up

and write a wrong in typical baby face fashion, even though he's a spooky crow character. Somehow or another, he would have to be there to write a wrong. that would be an interesting way or a version of that because we're just riffing here that would be an interesting way I think to bring not just sting in the crow character gimmick but to take the sting crow character that works so well because of a similar situation that we just described that was happening at WCW back in 96 or 97 now that same character with the same motivation and that same righteous perspective of life and he's here to fix the thing that's wrong that would have been consistent with Sting's character. So you not only had

the look of the crow character. Now you've got the consistency of what the audience believed in with Steve Borden. I would have launched it. I mean, that's a bad idea, but it's off the top of my head. Not a bad idea, but it's a, yeah, it's a loose idea at best. But something like that, it would have to be a motivation other than just, boom, here I am. It's interesting to think, you know, this is the most celebrated opportunity and perhaps bungled opportunity in W.W. History. But our old pal Jeff Jarrett on Tuesdays always reminds us, creative is subjective. And I think this is an excellent way to, to sort of explore that. It's crazy.

Creative is subjective all the way up until the point you put it on television. Then you find out whether it's subjective or not well i mean even then i think there's some stuff that i would like and you wouldn't like and vice versa that's fair some will like it some won't so what is is i think the attitude and and i get that they they're trying to do stuff but this does feel like the biggest perhaps what if um the wbf runs out of patience and they have shane mcman become the face of wcw and this is happening at the same time the dude is wrestling curt angle which is a little silly in hindsight it feels less than to not have you be a part of it and you alluded to the call that you got with jr and you said the timing was wasn't maybe right here but also

got the vibe in talking to you before jr wasn't really trying to sell you on this idea and i don't know if that was just uh he wasn't really pleased with y'all's previous interaction in wcd or what have you but with the right sell job do you think you would have considered leading the charge for this thing? Absolutely would have had I been given a little bit more notice because I honestly, I wasn't TV ready. I had to let myself go a lot. You know, I'm right now I'm about 185 pounds when,

and I'm probably way less now than I did in 1995 or 1990 for that matter. I don't think I've been 185 pounds in 30 years. But at that time, I was up to 225, which doesn't sound like a lot. because, you know, I'm 510, 225, it's not too bad. But I'm not a, I'm a natural 175 pounder. That's probably what I should weigh. And I had ballooned up to about 220, 225. I looked horrible on television.

So, and I, even when I finally showed up at WWWE a year later, I still look pretty horrible for television, not for walk around, but I was not TV ready. Had I been given a month's notice? to at least try to correct that a little bit. And also it was happening over a period of time when I had a lot of friends and family in town and I just couldn't on short notice like 48 hours,

which is all the notice I really got. I just couldn't. Bad timing. But I probably, you know, who knows, had it been explained to me and I would have given a little bit more time, absolutely I would have done it because it would have been fun. It would have been fine. And it's fun to think about what could have been, you know, I know that it would have made

sense to even bring you back in 2002 when they did the whole NWO thing. I guess that's worth making more sense, right? If you would have started this thing early with Sting and Sting's leading it and build a story out, add a couple more former WCW talents to Sting's brigade and they're not gaining any ground, but they're putting up a hell of a good fight, stack up a few more talents that actually matter a little bit, bring me in. let me start bringing that talent in now you have something that feels like an invasion with a motivation yes and and just to add that context we're saying we're not going to do this deal with

Kevin Nash and Scott Hall and Hulk Hogan they want too much money and it'll upset you know our current pay structure that's the that's the talk in March of 2001 we do the actual invasion in July of 2001 we sunset it in November of 2001 And then in February of 2002, here comes Scott Hall, Kevin Nash, and Hulk Hogan. Like, what? Like in the scheme of things, it's three months after it's dead. What's the difference, right? And, and again, because we have the luxury of 2020 hindsight and being fucking

creative geniuses after the fact. But if you think about that from a what if, you know, point of view had, I mean, I love Shane McMahon. We're good friends. And he's an amazing talent. I have nothing but respect for Shane. And I can't wait to see him again down the road. But that was a bad fit.

It was not believable. It was just, okay, I get it. He's playing a role and he's doing what we're supposed to do here to tell a wrestling story, but it didn't work. Had I been able to take that role, had we been able to build up an invasion story that seemed to have motivation, it wasn't just thrown out there like an afterthought and see if it sticks or not, but have a have a story similar to the one that we just laid out briefly let that let Sting

and his team get so close to achieving whatever the stakes were we'd have to create those stakes but have them get so close to getting that brass ring whatever it would have been only to somehow not get it now with me in that position what would I do if Scott Hall and Kevin Ash and Hulk Hogan, all of a sudden are available a year later. Again, that, that would have felt so believable. It would have gotten a completely different reaction. And there would have been continuity to the story. It wouldn't have just started stop, start again.

The other thing I think that is a glaring hole in this whole invasion piece of business is we have our first WCW match, Booker T and Buff Bagwell. into coma now on the one hand it's like yeah well what's the big deal well i don't know the next freaking week they're at the georgia dome in Atlanta like to me if you're going to start this invasion angle and i get that we're all as you said creative geniuses with the benefit of hindsight like you you start this thing at the georgia dome in Atlanta that's where it kicks off right like not would have made sense but again there's no There was no, it was just, oh, it's Marcus Baguel and Booker T. They're WCW guys.

We're in Tacoma. Let's just throw it up against the wall. Or even we're in Georgia, which would have made a lot more sense. Yeah. But it wouldn't have made as much sense as it would have in Georgia or anywhere else, particularly in Atlanta, if there would have been an explanation in a story. Otherwise, it's just, yep, there's Marcus Bagwell. He's from WCW, Booker D, WCW, and you're selling it in your comments.

commentary, but it still just pops up out of the ground without any backstory, without any reason, without any states, without any motivation. It's just two guys wrestling. What if, and I know that this is silly, right? Everything in wrestling is a little silly. We got to suspend our disbelief. But if they're in the Georgia Dome and Stone Cold Steve Austin is out there and he just starts cutting promos about how, you know, he's got no competition. You know, he's dominated everybody in w w he's beat the rock he's beat so and so he's beat so and so by the way there was this little pissant company here in Atlanta Georgia they said uh you know I wasn't worth nothing blah blah blah you know typical Steve Austin speech boo yeah yeah he could start trashing on the lead

up to that show and then actually in the ring during that show and what if we did the whole here's the NWO and maybe maybe he's of course he's aligned himself he being Steve Austin with Vince McMahon, you bought WCW, but you didn't buy the NWO sort of thing. You know, that could have been a thing. And all of a sudden, if now Steve Austin and Vince McMahon are standing in the ring and here's Hulk Hogan and Scott Hall and Kevin Nash and Eric Bischoff, yeah, you bought WCW, but you didn't buy the NWO, man, that could have been, that would have got the idea that you and Vince come face to face in the Georgia Dome.

in Atlanta, he's got his band of Mary misfits, including Stone Coal sending behind him. And you've got the NWO behind you. That could have been something too. Like it just feels like there's a lot of opportunity here with the benefit of hindsight. And I know at the time we're saying, oh, we can't afford it. But then magically they just shit the cash a handful of months later. It, it was right there. And we just didn't do it.

I mean, it's what you just laid out with, with, with the. NWO and Austin and McMahon in the ring and the NW on the other side of the ring. Oh my God. That would have been so badass. That would have been so badass.

And could you imagine the match you could have had with Steve Austin and Scott Hall? It could have been. Freaking awesome. Especially with that setup. I would have been phenomenal. And it would have made

a lot of money and it was right there i mean they're doing it in the georgia dome and i mean it would have even been cool if you know we're mixing it up and and goldberg to me when i think of the georgia dome i think at goldberg do you know it like he's the guy i think is most synonymous with that building and wrestling to me and honestly now with the n w o that would have eclipsed goldberg's impact i mean the nw was bigger than built the nw o was so big that it would have been bigger than Goldberg by himself in Atlanta. But if you didn't have the NWO and you needed that other person, yeah, Goldberg would be your guy.

Goldberg walks on water in Georgia and he did it at that time, probably still does. You know, he, he was on the Atlanta Falcons football team and everybody gave him a lot of props for that, but he was most known, most known for his college career, Georgia. So, yeah, you would have, that would have been awesome. I mean, I think it could have been interesting to, uh, to just see Goldberg. Again, I know that what we're saying at the time, Austin's a heel.

Well, technically the NWO would be heels, but if they're all going to kind of come face to face, maybe if the NWO was trying to take over and they're giving a beat down, if Goldberg makes the save in the Georgia Dome and he finds himself shoulder to shoulder with Austin. And of course, we know that's not going to last eventually that one's going to turn on the other. Somebody's getting a stunner. We could build on that story. But it just feels like, man, the Georgia Dome, it's the perfect opportunity to do this sort of thing. You know what, though?

Here's probably why that didn't happen. Maybe. The risk in that story would be NWO would have gotten over. Oh, yeah, for sure. I mean, they would have gotten. Wouldn't that be terrible if people liked it and tuned in? But that's now you're running against a cultural grain. it's so dumb now you've got now you've got a now you've got an emotional problem within the hierarchy of

wwe and that's likely why that didn't happen don't you think that's a little silly of course it's absolutely insane but it's part of human nature you know none of us are perfect it's it's it's a flaw but it's that one was a big one you know there was some ego involved in there if that was discussed and it didn't happen That was an ego decision, not a financial decision. I don't know that, you know, the eye, I don't think, I don't think Vince's eye was all the way on the ball like it would have normally. And honestly, you're giving them, you know, some slack.

And perhaps you're right about that. Nothing but massive respect for Vince McMahon and, and I like him personally. But historically, Vince doesn't, didn't, hasn't like to. acknowledge anything other than WWE. Yeah. WVE is the standard. Everything else that's not

WWE that didn't come up through the WWE cultural process and learn how to perform to the expectations and the unique perspective sometimes of Vince McMahon. If you're not on his list, you're a second class citizen. It's just a fact.

and maybe that's one of the reasons why the WWE is such a powerful brand today and worth $9 billion stock price trading at $112.12. I mean, I was sitting in one of your offices a couple years ago and kind of bottom fell out. And there was all this kinds of transition. And I made up my mind despite the fact that time I didn't have a lot of disposable income to invest. If that thing hits $35, I'm going to have to sell some shit because I got to buy that. It was that close to $35 a share. Now it's up to 112.

And I think the reason for that is because Vince's focus and commitment, as you started this podcast out earlier, it's all about the brand and not about the talent. But there is some ego involved in some kind of cultural patterns that we've all seen over the years and heard about from people who are on the receiving end of it. It was a perfect storm and a perfect opportunity, but it was never going to happen. It was never a scenario.

I can't imagine a scenario where Vince would have allowed the NWO and Bill Goldberg to get a massive reaction and fans side with that side of the equation over any WWE combination. Vince, I just can't believe he would have given you a million other reasons why. Right. But at the core of it, I'm not letting those guys come in here.

and steal the loyalty from my audience and my roster. You know, as you may recall, one of the original ideas was, at least this is the rumor, hey, maybe we'll call Monday Night Raw, we'll make that a WCW show.

And, and, and, and maybe it'll be WCW Raw. And maybe there'll be a new show on TNN because, yeah, you know, that's, that's the new opportunity that's presented itself. And well, that Tacoma thing goes so badly that that's all scrapped.

And they have to come up with these creative ideas. And one of the ideas is, hey, DDP still wants to play. Maybe he thinks there's an opportunity to bet on himself. He's the most positive guy we know. He's going to go put in the work. He's going to take a pay cut and make a go at it. And instead of this being, uh, some dynamite storyline, man, it just feels like it's bad from the beginning.

He's going to start stalking the undertaker's wife. now wrestling fans at home know he's married to Kimberly why are you stalking anybody what uh that creative is just less than ideal and i know ddp saw himself as the people's champ of wcw he would have liked to have wrestled the people's champ of the wf the rock uh if you had your druthers what would have been a cool way to introduce ddp into this audience because i understand that when I ask you that question, a lot of people who are Eric Bischoff or DDP haters are going to say, oh, you're just asking him because he's his friend. No, I'm asking him because the diamond cutter was still arguably the number one or number two

hottest move in the whole industry. So if he slides in in any match and hits a diamond cutter, huge impact right away, throws up the hand sign. You could see a good shot of that on the hard cam. You talk about making impact. Again, not disrespecting Lance Storm at all. the diamond cutter way more over than a super kick at that point like to me if you're going he could have been another guy to really kick this thing off interfering in some match with a diamond

cutter everybody knows who that is as soon as it hits what would have been a good idea for ddp do you think well easily going back to the original concept of you know creating a situation where a former wcd star finally gets their opportunity and that just gets abused in the process simply because he or she was from WCW. Now there's a motivation. Would that DDP, could he have been the guy? And by the way, you know, I don't know why I don't think of GDP right away. I don't think I would have led with DDP, but he'd be my number two.

He'd be my number, he'd be my Kevin Nash in the context of Scott Hall, Kevin Nash, ultimately, Hulk Hogan. And he could have been such a great baby face. I mean, again, you've got a WCW star in. And, of course, if you're in the WWE culture, you look down your nose at that, especially at that time, just it is what it is or was what it was. But DDP had, he was like a phoenix rising from the ashes. He went from kind of a middle of the bottom of the roster to a legitimate big star in a relatively

short, very short period of time, really, the big scheme of things. he would have been that great baby face. He could have done a couple promos and finally get an opportunity. I'm glad WWE brought out WCW. I love WCWCW my opportunity there, but at least we get a chance to continue pursuing this passion. We love, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and have him go out there and just get beat half the death.

He would have been that good sympathetic baby face. But to bring him in as a heel, after he'd been established and there was so much equity in the minds of the audience as a huge, huge, you know, man of the people, one of them coming down through the crowd. I finally did it. Adrian. I finally did.

Everybody said I couldn't. I finally did all that good shit, right? And just pretend none of it ever happened to bring him in as a heel. What the fuck? That's kind of arrogant, don't you think? That's assuming your audience never paid attention to everything this man did previously. That's just arrogant. It doesn't make any sense.

I think bringing DDP in as a baby face. that is a catalyst for an appearance by Sting would have been an awesome situation. And I contradicted myself because I said I would have used him as my number two. I would have used him. I would have used DDP as that person that provided the motivation for Steve Borden. I would not have had him following the Undertaker's wife. No, that's a terrible idea. It's the worst idea.

It's one of the worst ideas ever heard. We do see Buff Bagwell have a match year that's been pretty controversial. This is that match in Tacoma. Um, I do want to talk about Buff, but before I do, I want to mention that the fans of Tacoma, they're not with it. They're chanting boring. They're chanting this match sucks. They're even chanting Goldberg.

And to me, that's just another indicator that we needed to find a spot for Goldberg. We needed a spot. I find a spot. And I realize we're trying Austin as a heel, but Austin Goldberg could have crushed. I mean, this is one of those dream matches. Um, Kevin Sullivan was with us for Top Guy Weekend here in Huntsville as a part of what we do

with ad-free shows.com and he dropped a few nuggets on us. And one of the biggest pieces that I heard from him that was like, wow, I never really thought about that. Because I, like a lot of wrestling fans, thought, okay, they just wanted to make him look like Steve Austin, but they put some UFC gloves on him. That's what they were looking for because Austin was getting hot in September of 97 he's about to become a made man and well that makes sense because that's when goldberg debuted on TV September and 97 now when we talked to Kevin Sullivan he says yeah I went down to the power plant saw what he was doing and said hey we got something with this guy he's intense he's explosive let's make him our version the wrestling version of Mike Tyson

he was doing all the head stuff like let's just do more of that let's put some gloves on him but he's got to be able to hold the guy so we'll cut the fingertips off but let's put him in black trunks and little short black boots and do like an entrance from the back like Tyson used to do once he gets over we'll just make him like the wrestling version of mike Tyson and at the time in 1997 Tyson's the biggest box office star not steve austin Tyson is the pay-per-view superstar and why would the number one company take a look at the number two company and say hey we want let's let's copy that that doesn't make any sense it makes a lot of sense to make him the wrestling version of mike tyson and i don't know until kevin

said i've ever put that together what do you think of that i think of that i think that makes a tremendous amount of sense yeah and and kevin was right there in the middle of it probably long before i was it would have been kevin that brought my attention to this amazing potential we had in the power plant. I didn't spend a lot of time evaluating talent. That wasn't my strength. I didn't have any confidence in my ability to look at talent and go, oh, I see something of that person.

You know, afterwards, and I see him perform and I get a sense of what they're like on a mic and things like that. I paid a lot of attention to that, but I didn't pay a lot of attention to the talent and the power plant where Kevin Sullivan did. Kevin Sullivan saw something initially that clearly, you know, I didn't see. He saw it way before me. Makes sense. It is.

And even Austin, you know, I mean, they're obviously, you know, you can't deny the similarities. I mean, just physical similarities. But even in their gear and their appearance, a lot of similarities. But I think, you know, Goldberg did have that MMA legitimate fighter vibe that set him, even though they looked very similar and, you know, had the same ring gear, essentially.

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Be sure to use that promo code 83 weeks 50. You'll get 50% off. How do you beat that? Well, you get free shipping too. You can do it both. Do both with HelloFresh, America's number one meal. yet. All right, Eric, we talked about Hello Fresh. Let's talk about something that they were trying to do that was a little fresh. What's better than a WWF versus WCW angle? Hmm, what if we made

it a three-way dance, as they used to call it in ECW? Paul Heyman is going to become a part of the alliance, but of course, we have to have a McMahon all over this thing. So Stephanie McMahon has now bought ECW. So Shane McMahon has WCW, Vince McMahon has the WWF and now Stephanie has ECW. To me, this is when the whole thing sort of jumps the shark. Uh, no disrespect to Stephanie. I think she was one of the best television characters of the era. We're seeing her very early, but man, she became a mega heel like 10 years ago when she was a part of the authority and she's slapping folks. And I understand you needed to pay that off of the match at some point. But as far as a television performer, I thought she was fantastic.

However, when I think of ECW, the last person I associated with it is Stephanie. And as an ECW fan, a diehard, I found myself going, oh, man. What did you think? Is this would have jumped the shark for you? Like a trained one at SeaWorld. Yeah. You know, I mean, oh. And I agree with you.

Stephanie was a great performer. I loved working with Stephanie because she was so believable. She got into her character. She wasn't just saying the words and memorizing a script in her body language, her eyes, her facial expressions. She was such a great performer. And again, she has so much credibility. But to miscast her, I mean, I,

like if you had a contest to see who could cast something the worst that would have probably won some kind of award that was horrible to me the way to do this and again what do I know but the way to do this is and you guys tried it in 05 we had all three of you in the ring Vince owns the WWF you quote unquote run WCW and Paul Heyman quote unquote runs ECW and just leave the McMahon kids completely out of it. Let them do whatever. Why would they, I mean, I understand from a storyline perspective and you and I have gone on and on about how much we loved succession. And I think they just got 27 Emmy nominations. It was all about the family and their dysfunction and

who's taking over. That is a story that that has interest. But I don't think we need to complicate the invasion storyline for that, like these dream matches that we used to see on these after mags on the cover. That was never. any what if Stephanie tried to supplant her dad that's not a thing like we don't care um and we could have but let's not confuse the issue with with

WCW and ECW Jeff Jared often says on his podcast if you confuse them you lose them this is getting a little convoluted for me now right more than convoluted it's just it's just not believable in any there's nothing anybody can grab a hold of here it's just bad really from the get go the idea was bad had you had haman and bischoff and and uh who's

the other one you you talked about you and you and paul haman and and vince McMahon like those are the three heads right so like yeah yeah leave it at that yeah leave it at that and you know you could have put stuff in there instead of vince vince me and out wanted to put himself in that position because that requires, you know, week in a week out. And sometimes you have the time to do it. Sometimes you don't. But even if Vince wasn't willing to kind of take the, that third position or first position and Haman and I would have shared second and third, but Stephanie in that.

That would have been believable. Having Stephanie or even Shane, Stephanie would have made a little bit more sense, I think, because you couldn't touch her, right? She had an advantage in that respect. um that would have worked could have worked but yeah this and here's the thing at wrestling fans as crappy as it was they're so in love with this concept that the paper view the first one invasion man it crushes it's the highest grossing most purchased WWF pay per view in history outside of a WrestleMania so besides a WrestleMania this is the high watermark and if you're

watching on YouTube you see the poster and I know what you're thinking man the invasion so you probably got all the WCW guys on one side and all the WVF guys on the other side and probably the ECW guys across the bottom nope we got half Shane's face half Vince's face and at the very bottom the three logos and they went with the most recent terrible WCW logo I would have used the OG logos for both ECW and the WWE and ECW just use the old school logos but that poster man it doesn't show the talent doesn't tell the story but the card itself does tell the story of the invasion we get edging christian taking on lance storm and mike awesome we get earl hebner taken on nick patrick that's kind of fun mc foley's the special guest referee we get

the apa taken on chuck palumbo and sean o'hare we get billy kidman taking on x-pot raven wrestling william regal which is interesting because regal's the w VF guy. Now Raven is an alliance guy. Chris Canyon, Hugh Morris and Sean Stasiak taking on Albert Big Show and Billy Gunn. Tajri taking on Taz, Rob Van Damme taking on Jeff Hardy, probably the match of the night, definitely the match of the night. Trish Stratus teaming with Lita to take on Tori Wilson and Stacey Kebler in a bra and panties match. Roll tied. And then in the main event, the alliance, Booker T, Bubba Ray Dudley, Diamond Dallas Page, DeVon, Devon, Dudley and Rhino take on the alliance or that is the alliance they take on team

WWF Chris Jericho Kane Kurt Angle Stone Cold and the Undertaker and this even though it's not perhaps as star studded on the WCW side as you would want I mean DDP and Booker T check the box the Dudleys certainly check the ECW box it does 775,000 buys but I just can't help but look at that card, especially the undercard and think, man, what could have been? Like the Dudleys should have been in one of these tag matches, like the Dudleys versus APA or the Dudleys versus Edge and Christian. Something like that makes sense as opposed to maybe what we got. But man, it just tells you just based on the storyline alone, Eric, it's a high watermark

for the company, 775,000 people buy it, hoping, wishing what's going to happen? I don't know. and then the wheels come off. Yeah, that's one of the disadvantages. Sometimes when you build something up and you create a perception and you have all this expectation, especially when you've had a history of surprising people and you know, you've conditioned your audience over years

to expect the unexpected. This had so much potential. That's great news. and you get everybody that comes into your restaurant called a pay-per-view. And how many people bought this pay-per-view? 775,000. Wow, that's kind of massive. So you get 775,000 people that show up to your restaurant and they all leave disappointed.

That's tough to fix, which is probably why they abandoned a lot of this afterwards, if they did. I'm not sure what they did. but yeah the good news is 775,000 people showed up the bad news they probably left a little less than impressed you know what's crazy to me Eric just you know we we love on this program to say context is king you know right off the top of your head what was the most successful wcd paper review in history come on you know the answer I don't know actually take a stab a Halloween havoc somewhere no come on man Man, Starcade 97, Hogan and Sting.

Oh, oh, yeah, I forgot. See how it goes? When you don't hang on to your past, you sometimes forget important parts of it. The biggest WCW paper view in history, and it's not close, is Sting and Hulk Hogan, Starcade 97. How long did you take to tell that story, Eric? Year and a half. 700,000 buys. Wow.

The invasion's three weeks old, 775,000 buys. Wow. What a data point. I'm just saying like the idea is right there wrestling fans won it so bad you spent a year and a doggone half telling that story and it broke every record 700,000 meanwhile we throw shit against the wall for three weeks see what sticks 775,000 buys and the wheels still came off wow that's crazy to me eric just to give it that context And that tells you what could have been.

Of course, we know WCW was largely positioned as mid-carders. No disrespect to DDP in Booker T. They are top guys. And we know Booker T had more success than anyone who made that jump from WCW. But it just didn't hit, man. And by November, it's all done. It's wrapped up. And just to put it in perspective,

because we did talk a lot about, you know, the NWO and what could have been and how they're going to be in in February. let's not forget that later that same year at the end of 2001, here comes Rick Flair. They do wind up bringing Rick Flair in. Rick Flair, even if he wasn't going to wrestle, could have been an incredible mouthpiece for WCW, and I would argue a much better mouthpiece and bigger piece of the show than Shane McMahon. Like let Shane do his thing, but hey, Shane brought me in and I'm representing WCW and we're going

head to head. Man, as a promo, that could have been fantastic. I would have preferred you in that spot, but I gladly take Rick as a second spot. And of course, I think Rick would have been better than me except for the NWO part. Right. Rick went out of, but just in the initial invasion, you know, especially if staying would have been the guy and had the reason and follow that up with Rick Flair and let Rick Flair be the mouthpiece of, of the invasion angle until he was forced or ready to. to get into the ring, that would have been pretty freaking cool, too. Rick wouldn't have, like I said, lent himself to the NWO chapter of that invasion story.

Right. The initial part of it he would have and more so than me because Rick represented WCW far more than I did. I mean, for that matter, if you really want to do this invasion thing, to your point, you could have the Goldbergs and the DDPs and the Stings represent the WCW side of thing with Rick Flair. You could represent the NWO side of thing. with Hall and Nash and Hogan and whoever else you want.

And then, of course, on the ECW side, you just have Paul Heyman. And think about the promos from that group. If the mouthpieces are Vince McMahon, Rick Flair, Eric Bischoff, Paul Heyman, this thing could have been booked a million different ways. It might still be going on. Yeah. We say we don't have the budget for it. So as soon as we kill it, it finishes November at Survivor Series.

The very next night, that's when bring in Rick Flair. three months later that's when we bring in hogan haul and nash a year later that's when we bring in goldberg it was right there we needed a bet on ourselves and instead of flushing all and here's the thing i just want to add proper context for this because people always say well we didn't have it in the budget but we had plenty of budget for that piece of shit xFL like the xFL think about the massive losses the xFL took and for a fraction of that you could have got all the stars that you it here that you said you couldn't afford and then i don't know maybe you would have made money because you beat wcw's highest grossing pay per view that they spent 18 months building in three freaking

weeks with candidly less than stars like you didn't use the top tier and it still got there what could somerslam have looked like what could survivor series have actually looked like had we just made that investment here and not in less than football because that's what it was and i guess we'll never really know what we do know is that uh eric and i start every single day with one delicious scoop of ag one eric i know you believe in this product you and mcgan and lorry have been using this long before they were even a sponsor here on the program at the start of the pandemic my wife said hey we need to look out for our immune systems duty you need to have a scoop of this and a cup of water every day and i thought i don't know about that and to my

surprise damn it actually tasted pretty good and i did note that I had more energy, that I had more focused, that I had more clarity. That's what it does for me. Now, for my wife, she does it before she goes to work out. She feels like she's more productive. I feel like I'm more focused at work. I think it's because it provides an all-in-one nutritional platform. You're going to get 75 different high-quality ingredients that are going to set you up for success.

It's going to help you with your digestion, with your sleep, with your recovery, with your focus, with your energy, with your strength, with your clarity. This is just checking all the boxes. I know you and Mrs. B believe in it. Tell us what you think of AG1. I'm not exaggerate. Again, take it every day. Even when I'm on the road, I have travel packets that I take with me.

I eat pretty clean most of the time. When I'm traveling, it's a little bit different. But when I'm home, when I say clean, I don't eat any carbs. I'm very careful that I get the right amount of nutritional fat and protein and things like that on a keto diet. Short story, I've kind of fine-tuned. my diet nutritionally to what's almost perfect for me. I also fast. Usually 14 to 18 hours a day, I fast. And as a result of that, I'm super sensitive to food and nutrition. I can literally,

if I eat certain things in the evening, I'll sit down, we'll have dinner, start watching television, whatever, and I can literally feel about a half hour, 45 minutes later, when that food starts hitting my system. I know that sounds weird, but I call a little, I tell the lawyer, I said, up, got my food rush, meaning when your, when your metabolism is functioning, for me, not speaking for everybody, because I don't know everybody. I'm not a doctor, nutritionist. My wife is, but I'm not.

but when I'm in a really clean state and eating very smart, I literally can feel certain things hit me almost. I get a rush, let's put it that way, similar in a way to some other things. When I have AG1 in the morning, it takes for me about 12 minutes and I go, oh, there it is. I already have a fair amount of energy and I do other things during the day to ensure that because I tend to fade out at about 4 o'clock. I try to extend that as best I can.

So I've got my own process for that. But when I take AG1, first thing in the morning, I feel it hit my system. And within 20 minutes after that, it actually happened on this show. I saw it in this morning. I'm sitting here and I'm kind of struggling through and staggering around for the open. and not quite functioning on all levels. And I really had my AG1 about 40 minutes before I hit join the room, right? And while we're doing the about three or four minutes, five minutes into the open,

I went, oh, there it is. There's my baby. So I absolutely believe it. And for me, it allows me to think more clearly to articulate those thoughts differently and better. that's what I notice. And that's because, from a functional point of view, and again, I'm not trying to pretend I'm a nutritionist, but when you have all of the ingredients that are in AG1 that affects your gut biome, people don't realize that hormones are created first in your gut.

It's a signal to create hormones in your brain, but that signal comes from your gut. so everything that you do throughout the day functionally depends on your health of your microbiomes and your gut health that's why i believe in this thing as much as i do because i could feel it i see the difference and it just affects in a really positive way my ability to function throughout the day all right eric let's uh let's do a couple quick questions then we'll get out of here this is a fantastic question from zole lopez ask eric if you could pick your five on five, who would be your WCW selections and your WWF selections, all of them in their prime.

So let's just, rather than say in your prime, we'll call it 2001, we're going to rebook the ending here. Maybe not the ending. We're going to rebook the Survivor series because as you and I joked, this thing could still be going on now. But what would that look like? You're going to get five representatives from WCW and five representatives from the WWF. So there is no ECW in this.

2001 who would you pick sting goldberg dDP all right where was edie grero in 2001 he was in the w f he was he was already there so on the wcdcd side i'd have i'd have had any defect sting goldberg ddp so you're not going to do hogan in there not going to do flare no nash no luger not to start with okay not to start with so sting goldberg dd p somehow edie Guerrero we got one more Booker Tee Scott Steiner I'd go with Booker okay so the fantasy booking here from the WCW side of things for Eric Bischoff is Sting Goldberg DDP Eddie Guerrero and Booker T now who are they going to be wrestling on the WWF side Eric well you'd have to go with Austin number one um

The intrigue of a potential Undertaker Sting matchup could be really, really fantastic. Austin, an Undertaker together. Who else? Okay. Who else we got there, man? I have to see names on paper. I can't just pull names out of thin air. Triple H, the Rock, Kurt Engel.

Oh, no, I would have held off on Rock. That's why I'd like, you know, you keep certain powder dry because then you've got something to look forward to. So I wouldn't have put Rock in that initially. Big show's there. Angles there. Go Kurt Angle and Triple H for sure. Kurt Angle and Triple H for sure because angle could have really in Triple H. Obviously there could have been some great, great matchups in there.

What have we got for? Yep. We need one more. And I'm actually going to challenge you. I'm going to take Eddie Guerrero away from me. All right. But. Chris Benoit.

Okay. So you're going to put Benoit on that side? Yep. All right. So we got Benoit. Triple H and Kurt Angle and who do you want to who do you want to slide that Eddie Guerrero spot from the WCW side of things somebody who was still still active in 2001 yeah let me let me pull up that roster and let you know who all's over there in 2001 um I don't

know the best one would have made sense but Bam Ben Bigelow Chris Canyon buff Bagwell uh we already got Goldberg on the list Um, Conan, Kevin Nash, Scott Seiner, Scott Seiner, Scott Steiner, there we go. And I guess maybe if he didn't snap his leg off, Sid could have been cool, uh, or maybe Lugar, but that's what we got. So we got Sting and Goldberg, DDP, Booker T and Scott Steiner, man, that's a fucking hell of a team there. Uh, and you still, to your point, you still have Hall and Nash and Rick Flair and Holkogen in the weights. And then you've got Austin Undertaker Benoit, Triple H and Angle.

I could argue that WCW could have won that, which I guess would be interesting. I know we know that Vince would have never allowed that to happen. But when I take a look at that, yeah, I would think WCW's got a real shot to win that. And every one of those talents makes sense from a history, backstory point of view. Adam Arpin says, in an invasion angle, you always have a trader in your scenario with Sting. Who would you have defect from the WVF to join Sting? that's interesting so is there somebody on the wcw side that would have or the wbf side that would have come back over who would make sense would it be a benoit a guerrero a big show

somebody else big show not big show not big show oh god i don't know it's just i get i'd have to think about that harder i can't just pull names out of my hat like that i have to think about that aaron wants to know besides staying an undertaker what are the dream matches, would you have booked? Is there? Like, that's the one everybody always gravitates to. Not me. I always thought Austin Goldberg. Like in 98, that's what I really wanted to see. I think fans have really fallen in love with the darker crow version of Sting and him versus the Undertaker really intrigues a lot of folks. Is there another quote unquote dream match you think could have been cool that we didn't get to see? Well, I'm with you. I think Austin Goldberg and

Sting and Undertaker are really the only two that I throw into that dream match category. That's assuming they had a good, decent story behind them. But those are the only two that feel like real dream matches. Like, oh, my gosh, if that would ever happen, those are the only two. Mark Cyrus, shout out to Mark, glad to say him back on some of our live recordings, wants to know what would have been the proper length to tell a proper invasion, angle story. We know that it really gets kicked off in June and then it comes to a close in November. I mean, we saw you stretch Sting and, and, and Hogan for 18 months. You got to think

this one could have gone even longer, right? As we joke, this thing could still be going on. I mean, booked properly, there's just so much story there. I hate to be that guy because it feels like this is feeding into a narrative. I know Bruce would argue this and I know from a business sense it doesn't make any sense, but you sort of alluded to it earlier. So Jim asked a fair question. While most agree that the angle was rushed in hindsight, isn't there some chance that in the back of Vince's mind, he put vindictiveness over business and intentionally made WCW look weak? I don't think he intentionally made them look weak. I think the idea. The idea, of always making certain that the WWE brand prevails and gets stronger every day by default

kind of creatively craps on just about anything else. I don't think it's a personal vindictiveness. I think it's just Vince McMahon's view of how to build his brand. How can you argue with him? You can't, right? as fans and an audience would we have liked to have seen it differently and would it maybe have entertained us more possibly but on the other side of the equation you can't argue the strength of the wwe brand and Vince McMahon's vision and execution in building it one of the guys who

did go back and forth that we haven't talked about on this show was chris jericho with the benefit of hindsight if we were booking this fantasy booking if you will would you have liked to have seen him be a guy who would have defected or would Would you have kept him on the WBF side of things? No, I saw that pop up on our chat feed here from our studio audience. And that would have been made, that would have made total sense. Another suggestion. Especially if he had, but if you've seen, I'm sure you have,

because it gets posted about once a year. Chris wrote a letter to me, handwritten, you know, when it was time for him to leave, thanking me for the opportunity and hopefully we'll get a chance to work down the road together someday. It's a very nice letter. very very uh it touched me it was very classy of of course particularly under the circumstances but to have chris jericho make that turn and pull that letter out remember when i wrote this letter to you a couple years ago and i said hopefully we'll work together someday

today's the day i mean that would have been just little shit like that it's good television is nothing but a great a bunch of great detail little details strung together in a great that would have been a that would have been a cool opportunity and Chris could have pulled it off he's the best you got to see that match from last night as we're recording we're recording on a Thursday morning he wrestled commander I know you've probably not seen much commander but man what a talented guy we had him at Rick Flair's last match I first saw him on GCW and was fortunate enough to see him in some AAA shows in Mexico and my goodness what a talent and he had a hell of a match with Jericho last night still

doing his thing, man, all these years later, Chris Cherko. One last suggestion that's sort of thrown up in the chat here. We haven't talked about it at all, but what a cool opportunity it would have been to introduce Ray Mysterio in the middle of all this. I mean, a guy who just set WCW on fire a few years prior, the idea that he could have been a surprise in some of this, man, that leaves you a lot of opportunity. What couldn't that guy do, right? God, see, that's what I mean.

I have to look at names. some papers, but how can I not have included Ray Mysterio? And as you were giving me, you know, ideas to choose from, I was thinking in my head, I need the I need an underdog. I need an underdog because they're easy to get sympathy on and get people on your side with. Give me an underdog. Give me an underdog. And then we got on to another name, but perfect, absolutely perfect.

I'd have to go back and rebook my team. I'd throw Ray Mysterio on there, not only because it could just provide such a dynamic visual presence because Ray Bistoe really did come to national prominence in WCW in the Cruiserweight Division. So there's a direct linked to WCW and its heritage. Heritage, I guess. Yeah. But the ability to create sympathy because he's physically an underdog, awesome, awesome choice. We got at least mention that on the other side of this invasion, I think the two biggest sort of breakout stars are Rob Van Dam and Booker T. They're going to enjoy the most success. And unfortunately, the person who it doesn't work out for, maybe bigger than all, is Buff Bagwell. And a lot's

been written about that and said about that. I don't know that he necessarily got a fair shake. It's hard to believe that his television wrestling career started when he was so young and ended so abruptly, do you think there's a scenario where Buff Bagwell as a part of an invasion angle could have worked out? I mean, I know you weren't there. I know we don't know exactly what happened. But it just seems like, man, that was that was a guy who was on TV for a long, long time and then it's over. Certainly could have. I wouldn't have led with Buff Bagwell by any of the imagination. No disrespect to Mark. Um, but he certainly could have been on any of those rosters. We didn't, you know, I didn't name him knowing my top five or anything like

that because I was really looking for story potential more than anything else, but certainly but back what could have been in any one of those positions as a performer. It's unfortunate what happened with Mark. I think a lot of it was timing and culture. You know, we talk occasionally. I don't know if Bruce does or not, but there's a, there's a culture in WWE, and it's different than the culture and was in WCW. And adjusting to that culture and adjusting to what's successful.

expected of you in the ring because it was different in WWE than it was in WCW. I think if anything went wrong, it was probably Mark's ability to adapt quickly. Because Mark was just one of those guys. If he shows him at a party, he's going to show up and be the most fun at the party and make the most noise and attract the most attention. Not necessarily the best way to try to break into a company like WWE. So I think that was probably the issue. It wasn't because Mark wasn't a big enough talent or popular enough talent or good enough

worker or didn't have the right look. None of those were the issues. My guess is it was just timing and failure to adapt. Well, we're going to talk about maybe the failure to adapt when we discuss in the coming weeks here on the program, the downfall of the NWO, how it got too big, when it stopped working, why WCW didn't pivot until it was too late. We'll also be talking about Stings 1999 before you left. The transformation of Hulk Hogan to Hollywood Hogan, SummerSlam, 2003, your match with Shane McMahon, becoming an EVP, uh, WWW's relationship with Canada and so much more. You can get all of these shows early and ad free, even be a part of our live studio audience

over at ad free shows.com. And we recently sat down not too long ago with Wildcat Chris Harris on what was supposed to just be a one-off response to some comments that Bruce Pritchard had. Instead, it was such a moving, interview I said man we got to do more of this we wound up talking for hours I highly recommend it we're calling it the false finish and Eric as you and I are recording now earlier this week I did round two our second guest on false finish will be glacier we're going to talk about how it all happened what could have been and the behind the scenes of the creation

and even his backstory with WCW which I have to admit I didn't know that this guy was wrestling Terry Funk and Great Muda on TV in WCW in 1989. I didn't know. No, I got to listen. I didn't know that he was going to Japan and working quote unquote worked shoot fights with Billy Robinson and Lou Thess like what? Glacier, the same guy? Oh, I got to hear this.

I didn't know any of this. And you won't believe all that went into the character, the rumor and innuendo about what costs what and what he's up to. these days. It's all a part of false finish coming soon to ad free shows.com. This week I also talked about July of 1985 in Jim Crockett promotions with David Crockett. It's a fabulous series we called The Book. Real quick, in July of 85, here's what all was changing. We had the first ever great American bash. It was a stadium show with skydivers and fireworks and a concert from David Allen Coe and Rick Flair landed on the field in a helicopter for the main event. Three

days later the Rock and Roll Express make their debut and win the tag titles and immediately start headlining and selling out and oh by the way they decide hey forget the NWA if you want our touring champion you want the big belt you see on TV we've got the investment in TV we've got the investment in this guy you're going to have to co-promote with us you see the seeds of them starting to break off which ultimately led to the creation of the big gold belt and removing being the NWA from that title. Because nowhere on that title does it say NWA. We'll find out a little bit about that and why.

And we finished the month off with a record house at the Dorton Arena in Raleigh, North Carolina, the high watermark for the battle of the nature boys. It's the biggest and most important show in Buddy Landell's life. We talk about it, the good, the bad, the ugly, how they started to get into the VHS program and so much more. It's a fabulous series on ad-free shows called The Book. You don't want to miss it. speaking of ad-free shows we're not done we're debuting a third new series called making the town

we're going to do a deep dive in historic wrestling venues and we're starting with what else the ecw arena if you've ever seen my podcast you know right behind me is one of the ecw arena signs i liked it so nice i bought it twice i have both of those signs because this is real wrestling history who better to talk to us about that building than the blue mani himself and coming up on tuesday i can't believe this is real tomorrow the first episode of Tuesday with the Taskmaster, it will debut exclusively on ad-free shows.com. You don't want to miss it.

It's all happening at ad-freeshows.com. I think it's the best value in wrestling going around. And speaking of value, we give you a lot of value if you want to advertise on this program. If you've heard our commercials, you hear us talk about some of the same sponsors week in, week out. Why is that? But because it really works. And if you're trying to target men that are 25 to 54 years old, there's no better

place to advertise than right here with us at advertise with eric.com love to have your interaction on social we're at 83 weeks on twitter instagram and facebook you can watch the show and support the show for free over at 83 weeks on youtube.com love to have your interaction there and to have you subscribe lots of fun new swag and merch available for you as well 83 weeksmerch.com is where you can get all your hats and coosies and tank tops and everything in between Eric, I didn't know what to expect today, but I had a blast talking about what could have been. Yeah, I typically shy away from these conversations, but this one was a fun one. So thank you very much.

And thanks for everybody, uh, joined us in the live studio. Thanks for everybody hanging out and having a good time with us. If you haven't already, check out ad-free shows.com and time for the debut of Tuesday with the Taskmaster tomorrow on ad-free shows. And we'll be back next week right here on 83 weeks with Eric Bischel. Hey guys, need to call a quick time out here. I wanted to tell your listeners what I've been telling my listeners over at OU didn't know for a while now about all the cool things happening over at ads-free shows.com.

We recently celebrated the 25-year anniversary of the biggest nitro of all time when Goldberg faced Hollywood Hogan at the Georgia Dome. Eric, alongside the taskmaster Kevin Sullivan and the living legend Larry Zabisco, joined AdFree Shows members live to relive it. Well, you can't fire me now, so I'll tell you the truth. I don't think anything can beat that. That was the ultimate. I mean, they broke the decibel record.

The roof blew off the place. It was amazing. Totally amazing. Speaking of the Taskmaster, Kevin Sullivan joins ad-freeshows.com, starting this July with a brand-new mailbag series, Tuesday with the Taskmaster, answering your questions each and every week.

I have over 50 years of experience at the wrestling business. and I'm happy to be on this platform with Conrad. So sending your letters, you've got a question. I can go back even past 50 years, and I'm a wrestling historian. So anything you want to know, we'll try to deliver. That's just a small taste of what we got waiting for you. With four levels to choose from,

see for yourself why ads-free shows is the best value in wrestling today. Sign up now at ads-freeshows.com.