83 Weeks with Eric Bischoff - Episode 293: Eddie Guerrero

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Starting point is 00:00:51 No house payments for two months. And unlike the dirt sheets, man, the reviews do not lie with over 1,000. five-star reviews. Find out for yourself how much Conrad and his team can save you by checking out Savewithconrad.com today. Be grateful you did. NMLS number 65084 Equal Healthy Lended. Woo! you're listening to 83 weeks with Eric Bischoff. And today we're doing something a little different. We're paying homage to the late great Eddie Guerrero. We were supposed to do this around his birthday,

Starting point is 00:01:43 but Eric and I got caught up talking about everything that's going on in wrestling these days. Of course, you can catch Eric later this week with John Alba when they're doing their show strictly business. They're going to talk about the business of professional wrestling. And I'm sure there will be lots of current stuff in that. conversation. But today, man, we're going to talk about all the times we've brought up Eddie Guerrero and what would have been his 56 birthday. It's hard to believe that Eddie would have been 56. Like, that's not old. You know, you think about some of the great performers we see on TV right now.

Starting point is 00:02:16 And I can't help but think what a great impact Eddie would have had in the ring and behind the scenes. It's just gone way, way too soon. I guess next month will be like, is that 19 years? we will have been without Eddie. Um, well, today we're going to be talking about, uh, and playing you some highlights from all the times he's come up here on the show. Uh, Eddie Guerrero, of course, was a mainstay and in Lucha Libre. And then I first saw him, uh, not when World's Collada. I wasn't watching that, but man, Nitro. He was just a force to be reckoned with. I didn't start watching Nitro, I guess, until August of 96. But fast forward. A man, His performance against Ray Mysterio, there ain't nothing like it.

Starting point is 00:03:05 Halloween Havoc, 1997. We're going to talk about that and so much more here on today's episode, a very special 83 weeks celebrating the late great Eddie Guerrero. And let's get things started with Eric Bischoff talking about bringing Eddie into WCW. Do I think, look, when Eddie came in, I was aware of Eddie, but not, close. I wasn't watching closely. Eddie was working as El Gato in New Japan. I think it was El Gato was his gimmick in Japan. And I was working closely with New Japan. And I know Masasaito really appreciated Eddie and liked him a lot. And the reason that Eddie became a conversation

Starting point is 00:03:51 between myself and Masa Saito was because they wanted to keep Eddie booked as often as as they could, but they couldn't put them on a full time or weren't willing, I guess, to put them under contract. So when I talked to Masa about what I wanted to do with the Cruiserweight Division, well before I had my first conversation with Eddie or Chris Benoit or any of those, I had the idea for the Cruiserweight Division. I was talking to Masa about it because a lot of the talent that I saw that would really help make up that division was.

Starting point is 00:04:29 that that talent would have come from New Japan Pro Wrestling, right? So it was my say, you know, they said, no, man, you could hire Eddie. If you can put Eddie under contract, I guarantee you, I will book him X amount of days a year. Well, the reason that that was important, and it was a financial, it was a good financial play on my part, is because as I'm adding talent to the roster, I've got to figure out, okay, as best I can, how, how do I justify this? How does this make sense financially? So if I hire a guy at whatever I hired Eddie at,

Starting point is 00:05:04 I think I brought him in at 175 or whatever it was, whatever the number was. I had Masa Sayido sitting across me at the table saying, well, I'll cover half. Yeah. And that was the nature of the relationship that went beyond occasional booking opportunities and, you know, things we did on TV. The real opportunity for a week to help me manage,

Starting point is 00:05:26 because again, at this time, we weren't profitable, right? We're getting close. So these decisions, despite the fact that the, you know, Meltzer and Vince McMahon were out there laying the groundwork for this bullshit narrative of, oh, you just write a check. It doesn't have to justify it. Bullshit. At that time, I had to justify everything.

Starting point is 00:05:47 But when I'm sitting across and I got Masa Saido and Brad Ring and saying, no, Eddie Crow, awesome. And if you hire him and you put him under contract and we have this deal, we'll eat half his contract. So now I'm getting a guy for 80 or 90 grand a year. Yeah, a badass. Pretty good deal. Now, did I see him as potentially being in that top spot at WCW at that time? Of course not.

Starting point is 00:06:11 And nobody else would have. It was in the right mind, right? Eddie made it to where he made it in WWE as a result of how well he built himself, how well he did for himself, how well he performed, how well he created his own character. I didn't do that for Eddie. Eddie did that for Eddie. I gave Eddie the opportunity and I said, wow, this is good. That was all on Eddie. It wasn't on me. It wasn't on anybody else. But had Eddie not going through everything he went through at WCW, he would not have been in WWE. End of conversation. It wasn't like WWE would have seen the handwriting on the wall

Starting point is 00:06:50 with Eddie Guerrero in 1995 or 96 or 97, 98, or 99 for that matter, or 2000. Had it not been for the success that Eddie created for himself in WCW. But while he was creating that success, did I ever see him as a potential? No. And in reality, even in 2020 hindsight, sitting here being really honest about it, I just don't think because of the time

Starting point is 00:07:17 and the context of timing, God, I'm starting to sound like Kamala Harris. It's all about the time and the essence of time and the passage of time within the context of time. Sorry, flip me out. I saw it this morning on the news. To be able to sit here and honestly say, yeah,

Starting point is 00:07:33 I could see how Eddie could have done it. That would be pandering to this audience. And I won't do it. I just won't do it. Okay. So you heard me mention at the top of the show that I was not watching when worlds collod, but you look back at that show and you see so many pivotal talent that were a part

Starting point is 00:07:50 of that show, Eddie Guerrero amongst them. We have talked about that here on the program with Eric. So we're going to talk. about Eddie and Art Bar's performance on When Worlds Collide. We'll also touch on why Eddie didn't hire Art Bar. And then we're going to fast forward to a conversation that we had about Eddie Guerrero and Dean Malenko at Starcate. It's an interesting time. You know, Eddie's career in WCW. If you read his book, you'll see that he was very, very frustrated.

Starting point is 00:08:19 He wanted so much more than what was available to him. And he didn't always talk about his time in WCW so glowingly so we're going to touch on some of that as we move on here we should mention the next match is what everybody is talking about and you've heard about it i'm sure it's octagon and alhio del santo taking on love machine and edie guerrero love machine is art bar it's two out of three falls it's double mask versus double hair it's 22 minutes and 29 seconds melzer would say live this was one of the best matches he's ever seen and one of the two best matches of the year in the he gave it five stars of course art bar and Eddie Guerrero lose and as a result of most of their hair cut off with scissors before going backstage and having the rest taken off with

Starting point is 00:09:07 tremors but this is quite the performance Meltzer would ride on the heels of this show Love Machine in some aspects is the best all-around performer in the group and Eddie Guerrero was easily the best pure wrestler on the card that night this is unfortunately Fortunately, the last, I mean, really the big break that Art Bar had been looking for. He had bounced around a little bit. He had a little bit of trouble with Rod in the Northwest. And then he would pop up in WCW as the juicer, which is basically a Beetlejuice ripoff. He's looking for the success that a lot of people say his talent deserves.

Starting point is 00:09:46 He has maybe the best frog splash in the history of the business. Eddie Guerrero would use that for the rest of his career as a tribute to Art Bar. and I say tribute because just seven days at 17 days after this show unfortunately art bar would pass away so this is really his biggest match most important match most notable match but sadly one of his last as well when you saw what art bar was capable of here we know you're going to bring in Eddie Guerrero what were the plans for our bar I mean did you think God what can I do with this guy? I didn't really, you know, I was interested in Eddie, and again, we've talked about this, you know, six months or a year ago.

Starting point is 00:10:29 You know, the reason that Eddie and Chris and Dean came in is because of their association with New Japan Pro Wrestling. Art Bar didn't have that association, which I don't think he did at the time. So, you know, I didn't bring Eddie in because of the performance that occurred on the show. I brought Eddie in eventually because of the long-term relationship that I have with New Japan Pro Wrestling. So, you know, I'm not taking anything away from Art Bar, but. he wasn't on my radar and he became on my radar because of that relationship with new japan well if you're listening to this show and you're looking for one match to watch you need to go watch this one octagon and ohio dosanto taking on love machine and eddie guerrero two out of three

Starting point is 00:11:08 falls one of the best matches you'll ever see let's get to starcade your opening match is a hell of a match it only gets two and three quarters in the star rating in the observer but eddie guerrero and dean malenko man i wish every pay-per-view still started that way melzer would say this was the best match on the show, but well below the standard you'd expect from these two. And I think a lot of this is probably because, and I could be wrong, this crowd is here for the main event. They're here for Hogan Sting. And it's probably hard to get them behind, you know, a cruiserweight title match. And it is different from a traditional show in that regard, because it felt like Starcade 97, people were really counting the days down to see the payoff of

Starting point is 00:11:51 this Sting Hogan match. What did you think of this Eddie Dean Malinko opener? You know, I agree with Dave, to a certain degree. I thought the match was a great match. I don't think it was one of the better ones. I don't think it was the best match on the card. You know, we'll talk about Kurt Heading and DDP a little bit later. But the one thing that I did notice in watching the match back is for an Eddie and Dean match, it was a slower-paced match.

Starting point is 00:12:20 And again, one of the things I love about doing this show with you and, you know, kind of being forced, and not against my will, but being motivated to go back and look at some of this stuff is the way I look at it now and the way I looked at it down. And I think for me now, because certainly I wasn't, you know, I didn't get involved in matches. I didn't tell people or suggest or even pay attention to how matches were laid out. I left that to other people who were more experienced than me. But today, I would have sat down with these guys and had a conversation about, you know, okay, here's who you guys are as characters. Here's what the audience expectation is of you guys as characters in this cruiser way world, which is, you know, an extremely important part of who WCW is right now and who, and the success that Nitro has experienced is because of you, Dean, and you, Eddie. And here's what this match needs to be. And instead of it being however long it was, I didn't look at the time on it.

Starting point is 00:13:19 But it was a long segment. It was a good 12, 14 minutes minimum, maybe more. Eddie and Dean should have had a faster-paced match that looked more cruiser-weight-ish than this one did. It was a great match, so I'll get me wrong. And I'm going to go on a record right now. I'm going to start a Dean Malenko fan club here on 83 weeks. Because every time I go back and look at something that we're going to be talking about, and every time Dean Malinko is in it, I say to myself,

Starting point is 00:13:49 of, damn, he, without question, one of the most underrated talents in WCW, and for the minimal amount of time he was in WWE. He is so good. His character is so believable from the minute he walks through a curtain, people should study, young guys and girls coming up in the business should look at Dean Malenko and study him in terms of his ability as an actor, as a performer, whatever you want to call him, his ability to make you believe the minute he walks out to the ring. He creates one of my biggest bitches when I watch wrestling, and not so much when I watch it anymore, because I don't watch it for the same reasons anymore. But, you know, when I was writing, and especially the last few years in my career, you know, I used to beat people

Starting point is 00:14:41 over the head. You know, bully, if we ever, if you ever interview bully, you know, to, and Ask him to tell you about the time in creative meetings at TNA, what I would just beat my fist almost bloody, pounding on the table, trying to get people to understand and invest in the idea that in order for any storyline to matter, there has to be stakes that people believe. You can't just throw up gimmicks and expect people to invest in silly-ass gimmicks with no meaning, no connection to a story, no connection to the characters, just a gimmick for the sake of a gimmick. It used to drive me fucking bat shit. Still does. I'll get myself working into a fucking latherer here if I think about it much longer. But Dean had the amazing ability and talent that he would walk out. And I mean within three seconds of the camera, you know, being on Dean, he would make you believe

Starting point is 00:15:36 that in his mind those stakes were incredibly high. That match was the most important thing in his life in that particular moment. And the ability to do that, and it's subtle. You know, it's not like you can't overact that. You can't overproduce that. It's just you either have that natural acting ability and believability or you don't. And Dean had it in spades. He's so good at it.

Starting point is 00:16:03 Eddie is Eddie. You know, we keep Eddie on a pedestal, deservedly so, for so many different ways. But from a producer's perspective, just please go back. back and look at Dean Malenko. Look at every little thing that he does because everything that he does is not only believable, but you get the sense that to him as a performer, it's incredibly important. The most important thing, you know, in his world at that particular moments in a match. Okay, I'm done putting over Dean Malenko. Dean, you can send me a box of steaks for Christmas if you want. Let's talk about the next match here. Probably the match of

Starting point is 00:16:39 the show. It's going to get four and a quarter stars here. They get 13 minutes and 43. seconds where Otani pins Eddie Guerrero a lot of people still talk about this one maybe one of the better matches that we saw at a Starcade certainly the best match on this one what'd you think I'm gonna watch it again I mean it was I was blown away I was blown away I mean I don't know that man if that match could happen today God, we're willing, and we could put that match on today. That match would stand up to any show in any company, any place in the world today. And we're talking about 23 years ago.

Starting point is 00:17:26 You talk about being ahead of your time. You talk about being on the cutting edge. You know, this match had everything. And what's really interesting, Conrad, is over, you know, the holiday, Christmas and a couple days after, I'm kind of, you know, you're bored sitting around on the house doing nothing. And so I start going back and forth with fans on Twitter, sometimes just for the fun of it. And sometimes you get into some really interesting conversations. And somebody posted a couple days ago, you know, their frustration, I'm not going to paraphrase it,

Starting point is 00:17:56 but their frustration in that, you know, all matches now are just nothing but high spots, nothing means anymore. There's no good stories anymore. And I kind of posited the question or the statement, you know, it doesn't have to be binary. It doesn't have to be, it's all high-flying, crazy, athletic, super, you know, crazy moves. moves, suicide moves, and no story. There's got to be a way to find that balance. And we went back and forth in that discussion.

Starting point is 00:18:22 In my opinion, it's not so much that it can't be done. It's just people have chosen not to do it or don't feel the need to do it, that they've replaced good storytelling and psychology in a wrestling match with shit that makes you go, ooh. And that happens. It's just the evolution of the business. But I think there's going to be people who are going to rise to the next level who are capable of delivering that kind of very progressive, highly evolved, athletic type of high-flying

Starting point is 00:18:48 match, but still have good story. It doesn't have to be one of the other. And then I watched this after going back and forth on Twitter, and then I sat down to watch the show, and I went, that's a perfect example. I mean, this match was a perfect example of believable, well-executed, super athletic, high-flying, fast-paced, stiff, but it's still told a great story in the ring and this this would be my example of what wrestling could and should look like in 2019 and 2020 because it is possible and these two guys did it in 1995 there you go if you haven't already go out of your way to go find this one it's a hell

Starting point is 00:19:34 of a match otani is going to go on to be the first cruiserweight champion in march in 96 he would defeat bin won the finals of that tournament in japan and Benoit's working there as Wild Pegasus. Eventually, Otani would go on to lose the belt to Dean Malenko. He would win the Wrestling Observer Best Technical Wrestler Award in 99. He did the J-Crown, the IWGP Junior title. He even hailed the WWF light heavyweight title once. He's still not retired, but this is about as good as this going to get.

Starting point is 00:20:03 Go out of your way to watch it. Man, you're going to get to see the angle of your seat with our friends at game time. This has been a game changer for me. me. I know not too long ago, Dave Sylvie used this to get his kids. Incredible tickets to see the Jonas brothers. I think sister had more fun than brother. Boy, it was all smiles at my house when I was able to get last minute. I'm talking about just hours before the show, front row seats for, I think her name's Lana Del Rey. I don't know, but my daughter absolutely said I made her life complete. And it was way cheaper than if I had

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Starting point is 00:22:09 that's W-E-E-K-S, and you're at $20 off download game time today last minute tickets lowest price guaranteed so now we've also had a chance to recap some well interesting moments in eddie's career in wcw he once teamed with uh his pal billy kidman and his great close personal friend ray mysterio to take on the insane clown posse in vampiro uh yeah how about this not only that it happened at road wild yes So one of those outdoor shows and Sturgis, right after that, we're going to switch to a conversation about Conan and Eddie Guerrero hooking it up at uncensored 99. They got plenty of time on a pay-per-view. You know, this is very much the Monday Night War era here in 99. So if there was a TV match, it was usually two, three, four, five, six minutes.

Starting point is 00:23:00 So to get on pay-per-view for 19 minutes was a big doggone deal. We'll also touch on Eddie Guerrero and Ray Mysterio from World War III. This is probably not the match that you're expecting. us to talk about with them on pay-per-view. We are talking about Halloween Havoc 97, but, man, they followed it up the next month at World War III with a pretty damn amazing match in their own right. We'll also talk about uncensored 98. We've got Eddie Guerrero wrestling Booker T, which on paper seems like a dream match.

Starting point is 00:23:29 But, well, maybe Eric's a little critical of that one. So we'll cover Eddie Guerrero and Booker T in three other matches, starting with Conan right here. Let's keep it going. This is a fun show for what it is. This is probably my favorite of the road wall shows. Maybe it's just because I had a good time watching it at the time and I still remember where I watched it. But even though this is the most hodgepodge group of performers ever, it's a pretty

Starting point is 00:23:59 fun match, your first one. It's Ray Mysterio, Billy Kidman and Eddie Guerrero. It's a lot of talent on one side. And on the other side, well, it's Vampiro and the insane clown posse. Raven is at ringside here. Uh, the match is okay, according to Meltzer says, although you'd expect more than okay for a match involving Mysterio, you know, junior, Kidman and Guerrero, and he says that ICP did fine considering the level of experience.

Starting point is 00:24:25 And of course, the finish sees Vampiro accidentally kick Shaggy too dope and Guerrero does a Piscato on Vampiro and then Kidman pins Shaggy after the shooting star press, two and a quarter stars. The idea of this being like, a six man with Eddie Guerrero and Ramiscerio on one side. It does feel sort of Lucha-esque, which I kind of like. But the insane clown posse in here with some of the best wrestlers in the world, clearly they need that as sort of garnish to bring them up a level. But it does feel like maybe we could have done a little more with some great in-ring talent than have them

Starting point is 00:25:01 wrestle clowns. What say you? Yeah. I can't, uh, I can't just listening to you to lay that out the way you just did, it kind of made me go, ooh, oh, and you're right. You know, when you've got as much challenge as you had on one side of the ring, you would expect a great match out of it. But keep in mind, they've got to have somebody to work with, and the insane cloud posse were not anywhere near the level of experience or abilities that their opponents were bringing to the table.

Starting point is 00:25:36 So you would, you know, looking back at it now, I wish I wouldn't have booked it. I'm sure on paper it made some kind of storyline sense. But if you can't execute that story in the ring, no matter how good it is on paper, if it doesn't come off well in the ring, it's going to go flat. And I can imagine that this one pretty flat.

Starting point is 00:25:56 You don't need to sell this first match, man. These guys are working their ass off. Conan retains the United States title against Eddie Guerrero in nearly 19 minutes. And I really enjoyed this match. I know that some of the reports were that could have been better, blah, blah, blah. Meltzer gave it three and a quarter stars. I thought it was good stuff, though. Meltzer would write the negative about doing the low blow finish was that they did about 30 low blows the rest of the show without any leading to a pin.

Starting point is 00:26:26 What did you think of the match watching it back for the first time in more than 20 years? A couple of things that jumped out of me right off the bat. number one you know 19 minutes for a conan match is a long damn time yeah and i was when i was watching it back on wwee network of course you could see where the segments break and as this thing started out they went holy cow this is going to be a really long match and for a guy like eddie you know his match you know you needed enough time to really you know tell the story you know beginning middle in an end look for some good transitions that were emotional so the audience is engaged so that at the finish of the match you've reached a crescendo. I mean, that's the basic, you know, structure of a match. And I thought, well, 19 minutes is a long time for a guy like Eddie who's a faster pace. You know, that's the thing about cruiser weights, or certainly was back then at least, is the pace of that match was much faster, which means that you need to be able to cram all that story and psychology in the three acts that you typically would want to have into something that is a little bit more consistent

Starting point is 00:27:34 what the style of match these guys have. If you go out there and burn the barn down for 19 minutes, by the time you're getting to the finish, unless you're in super good shape, you're going to be kind of dragging ass. In the finish of the match, is it going to be as good as probably the body of the match and

Starting point is 00:27:50 probably nearly as good as the opening of the match? So that was my thought going in. I was pleasantly surprised watching it back, you know, recently this morning, as a matter of that. On St. Patrick's stay, no less. I'm watching wrestling. that's 20-some-odd years old

Starting point is 00:28:06 but what I was really pleasantly surprised about was how great Conan looked this may have been the best in-ring presentation that Conan possibly ever had in WCW

Starting point is 00:28:21 not saying that he didn't have more important roles and more important scenes but if you just look at the body of the match from bell to bell and how it played out in the ring I thought Conan did a phenomenal job Eddie's Eddie He's always, he's always phenomenal. But Conan, I felt, was really, really on top of his game in the ring with working with Eddie.

Starting point is 00:28:41 If you go back and watch a match, hit that 950 time code somewhere in that area, a tremendous sequence of moves back and forth between Eddie and Conan and Conan look particularly great. The stakes I thought were really well laid out, the fact that, you know, the backstory of, you know, these two guys being friends and then the audience, kind of anticipating who's going to turn, who's going to get to that point in the middle of the match where they're going to, you know, throw their friendship out the window and get down and dirty, you know, that was established, you know, pretty early on. The low blow, I got to tell you, I'm going to call Conan next week and ask him because it was

Starting point is 00:29:24 such, first of all, I went back and watched it two or three times and I watched the replay two or three times. I didn't even see the low blow. It looked to me like Eddie basically nutted himself as he was coming over the top of Conan because it was so awkward and I could see Conan talking to Eddie on the cover and the way Eddie was selling it was not a theatrical cell if it was it was a poorly done one and that wasn't Eddie's forte doing things poorly when it came to selling that that finish looked so awkward and I swear to God I can't imagine anybody even sitting at ringside saw the low blow you know, Dave's comments notwithstanding,

Starting point is 00:30:07 which, by the way, I would probably agree with without even having noticed it in the rest of these matches as that was one of the flaws in WCW is, you know, guys going out there and repeating the same things that had happened in the match before, particularly high spots or heat spots, as Dave is probably referring to here. But I just looking at this match as a standalone,

Starting point is 00:30:28 if you go back and look at that finish, I'm pretty sure that that was an improv type of finish because it just was so awkward and uncharacteristic for Eddie. Next up, we got Andy Guerrero and Ray Mysterio, as you might imagine, this is the best match on the show. If you're going to watch one match from this show, it's got to be this one. It gets four stars in the Observer. They get plenty of time, 12 minutes, 42 seconds. You know, they just tore the house down a Halloween havoc the month prior. I still think that one's one of the best matches of all time. But this is pretty damn good.

Starting point is 00:31:04 Had the Halloween Havoc show not existed, you got to think this would have been, you know, their best match. Mike Tanae points out on commentary. There's a poster in the crowd about this being the three-year anniversary of the death of Eddie Guerrero's former partner, Art Barr, lots of intricate spots here, incredible frog splashes and power bombs,

Starting point is 00:31:25 and they're pulling out all the stops. I absolutely love it. Eddie gets the win. He retains the cruiserweight title. I don't think it mattered to be. who won. I mean, this was such a good match that by the end, I was just glad I got to see it. Yeah, I agree with you. I mean, I agree with you all the way across the board. I think the Halloween Havoc match was absolutely the best. I mean, that match was so crisp and the pace was

Starting point is 00:31:52 so fast. And there was nothing that wasn't spectacular about that match. This match wasn't quite as good and there were a couple beats if you go back and really break this match down and look at it very very closely you'll find probably two or three spots in this match where timing was a little off, positioning

Starting point is 00:32:14 was a little off once or twice either Eddie or Ray I couldn't really tell which one wasn't really sure where they were at but they made up for it so quickly that unless you really put this match under a microscope you wouldn't recognize it

Starting point is 00:32:29 I'm being super critical here because this match is fantastic and by any other standard or by all other standards, probably one of the best you've seen that year. We start with a barn burner, but it only gets two and a half stars, but look at the talent in this man. Booker T retaining his television title pending Eddie Guerrero in 11 minutes and eight seconds. Guerrero has his reluctant nephew Chavo Jr. here in tow as a result of a stipulation in a match that took place on Thunder three days prior and after

Starting point is 00:33:03 Eddie loses the match he argues with Chavo throws him in at the guardrail and Meltzer says this post match stuff is going to get old and hurry two and a half stars but it is good that you've got you know an angle here involving Chavo on TV one of his

Starting point is 00:33:19 first major things like this on television what did you think of the match watching it back for the first time in a long time this week and before I get to the match I'd like to talk about the open of the show just for a second. Sure. You know, if somebody listening to the show is an aspiring announcer or an active announcer or producer, for that matter, go back and watch the open of this particular

Starting point is 00:33:40 pay-per-view with Bobby and Teney and Tony. They did such a great job of framing this event and building anticipation for it and setting the context, you know, and really context in the sense of where the stories are and what the stakes are and what the possibilities could be for this particular evening. It really, that open really, I think, more than anything, I've seen going back and watching some of these, and I've seen some good ones. You know, this is a great team of announcers. I think they probably don't get nearly enough credit as a team as they probably should sometimes.

Starting point is 00:34:18 But if you go back and listen to Bobby especially, because he listens to everything everybody else said, but he puts a great button on the end of it that really drives the stakes, the potential danger, the risks, all of that. And he does it in a very believable way. Now, as far as the match goes, you know, I was a little, I was, I was probably more like Dave about this than anything. And I think even just watching it back, I was immediately disappointed within the first two minutes of watching it back because I don't remember. I didn't remember it. I had to go back and watch it to remind myself. And I

Starting point is 00:34:57 think we don't want to came up. I thought, oh, this is going to be a great match. Another great Eddie Guerrero match. And it's not that it was a bad match by any stretch of the imagination. The match was a solid match. Technically speaking, there's a couple little flaws in it, but not many.

Starting point is 00:35:12 But I think it was a real slow match for Eddie. You know, my expectation as a fan and as a producer, my expectation, whenever you see Eddie, especially coming out in the beginning of a pay-per-view, typically what we try to do is start off real hot, you know, and really capture the audience's imagination and satisfy them.

Starting point is 00:35:33 You know, my theory on that was if you start hot, you can find a way to get hot in the middle, and you end on a note that you know we'll have people talking. Overall, people are going to enjoy that pay-per-view. And this match, as good as it was, in so many different ways. I love the psychology in the match. I really do. I love the storytelling in the match.

Starting point is 00:35:52 but because for Eddie the pace of this match was so much slower than what I expected to see it kind of left me feeling just a little bit flat and disappointed that's that's my take and I like the next match even better this is one you should go out of your way to see uh Eddie Guerrero and six have a ladder match here for the United States belt it's an excellent four star match according to the observer I thought it was tremendous they got 13 minutes and 48 seconds Eddie gets the win, so now he is in possession of the U.S. title. Meltzer would say, uh, this was an excellent match, although one wouldn't have known it since the announcers absolutely killed the match.

Starting point is 00:36:31 Mischoff spent more time trying to get over that he knows karate and that Scott Hall invented ladder matches than built drama into a damn good match. Most people didn't even recognize this as anything more than an average match when it was really a great effort by both four stars to finish these both at the top of the ladder, each come down holding the belt. Guerrero manages to hit six with the belt and takes the bump to the floor while Guerrero climbs down with the belt. What did you think?

Starting point is 00:36:59 I thought it was pretty exciting. You know, WCW here to four, wasn't really known for the best gimmick type matches. They were usually sloppy, sometimes horrible in their execution. This was the antithesis of that. This was really good. this is really fast-paced both of these guys did a good good job what i was trying to put over

Starting point is 00:37:24 not myself but as a play-by-play guy who by the way actually is a black or was a black belt and spent you know a decade or more in martial arts i was taking i was using my knowledge to put over sean walton not trying to put myself over but dave through his fucked up color colored glasses wouldn't have recognized that. I really did put Sean over and his real knowledge of martial arts. And if you go back and listen to my commentary, I talk about how oftentimes people talk about, you know, the fact that they're martial artists or in the case of this particular show, they took three months worth of karate classes at the local YMCA and then run around on everybody, they know they know karate until they get their ass kicked because they don't really know shit. and I use that to try to put over Sean. Because Sean's use of martial arts were legitimate in the ring.

Starting point is 00:38:17 If you look at the move that Sean did, and it surprised me in real, in fact, it surprised me again seeing it. Sean executed. Now, he missed. He was slightly off target, which is understandable since he was standing on a fucking ladder with another guy. But when he jumped and did what's called technically a sidekick or a jump sidekick, he missed Eddie just by a touch. um but the kick itself from a technical point of view was almost flawless and it really did impress the fuck out of me it impressed the hell out of me watching it back it was a great match if you've never seen this one we're going to dump on this show we have been consistently go back and watch this

Starting point is 00:39:00 one i'm not going to say it's wrestlemania with razor and sean but very very good you know there are make or break times and everyone's career and man Eddie had an opportunity to have some big time opponents in 1996. We're going to talk about that where Eddie would team up with Aaron Anderson to take on Rick Flair and Randy Savage in 1996. What a big opportunity that was for Eddie. We'll also talk about Eddie and Flair working together at Hog Wild for the U.S. title. Yeah, one of those outdoor shows, the very first one back in 1996. Then we'll touch on Eddie Guerrero and DDP for the Battle Bowl ring. um maybe the battle ball ring wasn't such a bad idea you know i used to make fun of that whole

Starting point is 00:39:45 concept but i mean a w like the ring idea and i guess it's kind of a cool idea but still it felt like eddie grero and ddp wrestled about a hundred times it was all about that battle bowl ring then we'll talk about a pretty incredible match and some incredible talent here from december 23rd nineteen ninety six just a couple of days before christmas on nitro we were treated to eddie grow versus Chris, Chris Benoit. And I don't think anybody would have ever predicted that just a handful of years after that. Remember, that's almost 1997 right there. So you're saying seven years and change later, both of these guys would be world champs in WWE.

Starting point is 00:40:25 It's hard to imagine. But we'll talk about that match and so much more. Here we go. Hey, here's two good matches. Let's talk about them. Flare and Randy Savage on one side are going to be Eddie Guerrero and Arne Anderson on the other. so now let's talk about this you've got the horseman split apart rick on one side arn on the other we run through the list again rick flair randy savage arn anderson and eddie guerrero this is a big opportunity for guerrero here

Starting point is 00:40:54 i mean no matter how you slice it he's going to be wrestling randy savage and rick flair and this is early 1996 this is before eddie guerrero was in that upper echelon of conversation as far as American television wrestling to being a quote unquote top guy. Certainly he could he could be cruiserweight champ or TV champ or US champ but we're still I don't know years away from Eddie being considered world championship caliber but he's wrestling Randy Savage and Rick Blair who are a lot of people's Mount Rushmore's this is a big opportunity for Eddie right it was and Eddie took advantage of it man I think

Starting point is 00:41:33 Eddie looked good in this match and I love you know this match had backstory. Yes. This match had a reason to exist, whereas all of the other matches, other than, you know, the curiosity factor, didn't. And there was no backstory. And there was no psychology in the match. And there was no reason for those matches to happen, other than, you know, this

Starting point is 00:41:52 year ran for a lot of reasons. But this match did make sense. It did have backstory. It was going forward. This was a probably end of act one. early act two story in Rick Flair's saga at that point and his relationship to Arne Anderson. This match had the potential of seeing Arn, you know, being involved in defeating Rick. Didn't work out that way.

Starting point is 00:42:23 Worked out the opposite. It was really good storytelling. And the match with itself was really fun to watch. I enjoyed this one. Let's break down the match here. Meltzer would say Flair and Anderson worked together much of the way, beating on Savage, Guerrero Safe Savage. from Flair and Flair and Guerrero started working together, which got great heat.

Starting point is 00:42:40 As Guerrero took over on Flair, Savage recovered and attacked Flair, Anderson, then DDTed his own partner and posted Savage at Flair Pinn Guerrero. Flair and Anderson held Savage and Elizabeth slapped him in the face. Anderson then DDTed Savage on the floor and Flair stomped him. This is big on heat, three and a quarter stars. It's a little silly thing, but if you're a long time wrestling fan, you love the idea that Flair and Arne are holding Savage so Liz can slap him. This was good stuff.

Starting point is 00:43:11 And at this point, the best thing on the show. Was it the best thing on the show so far? Yeah, I think it had to be at this point. Well, I mean, I love the Steiner interaction. But as far as the overall match, I think this was better just because booty. At this point. Actually, my favorite match is going to take place shortly on this card. What you like?

Starting point is 00:43:33 I can guess. Well, okay, guess. Come on. humor me i think you're into the brad armstrong deal i like that one a lot but that wasn't my favorite my favorite was conan aligar and how about these guys tearing it up here um we should mention eddie guerrero is in the best shape of his career here and he's fresh off of a torn peck but he uses that time away clearly to uh you know do what he can in other areas including his diet This is probably the best Eddie had looked at this point.

Starting point is 00:44:09 It is. You know, now I'm going to be judicious in how I say this, but it, you know, you look at superstars now in the ring, and a lot of it has to do with diet and, you know, knowing more about working out and conditioning. You know, everything has advanced so much over the last 20 years, and I'm sure training and working out has, too, in terms of the ways people do it. But I think when wrestlers back in the 80s, and 90s, when the emphasis was on, you know, being as big as you possibly could. And I think that hurt a lot of careers.

Starting point is 00:44:44 You know, you look at Eddie here, look how fast he is, look how fluid he is. I think later on, as he got bigger and bigger and bigger, it actually, you know, took a toll on him, you know, inside of the ring. Look, when you're born, you have a certain set of genetics. You have your bone structure, your cartilage, your ligaments, all of those things that, no matter how hard you train, you really can't improve upon all that much. And then when you put on 20, 25, 35, 40 pounds of muscle or more in some cases, that's a lot of stress on knees and joints and, you know, soft tissue that you can't really improve upon by working out harder and gaining

Starting point is 00:45:25 weight or putting on size. So I like what I see today in many respects because guys are just in much better condition overall, and they're not as big as they used to be. Some of them are, naturally, but they've got the bone structure and the genetics to support it. You know, it's like me. You know, if I was in shape, I probably wouldn't weigh more than 185 pounds, maybe less. But for me, if I decided I wanted to get big and go out and get myself up to 240 or 250 pounds, even if it looked good from the outside you know that's a whole

Starting point is 00:46:05 lot of pressure on like I say bones, ligaments, you know, my body frame that isn't built to handle it so that's a long-winded way of agreeing with you and he looked like he was in great shape here and I think his work reflected that not that he wasn't great afterwards he certainly was he had fantastic matches

Starting point is 00:46:21 but I liked him a little leaner and a little faster Eddie Guerrero of course is um one of the I don't know what would you say all time WCW you know if he hadn't left and WCW would have continued I kind of think he would have been before you guys were done in line for the big bell I mean don't you think he could have tore it up with Booker T or do you think he would have always been a rung lower just based on the way his perception was in the company?

Starting point is 00:47:04 In all honesty, I don't think we would have ever given that opportunity to be a world champion. I'm not happy to say that. I'm not proud of it. I'm just, you know, being honest about the perception within the wrestling industry at that time, including in the WWF, by the way. That certainly changed later, but we're talking about 1997, 1998. 1998, I don't know that our company, I mean, it's hard to say, would we have evolved? Would we have gotten to the point where we realize that the audience doesn't really care

Starting point is 00:47:40 of someone to six foot six and three hundred pounds? Maybe we would have. I don't know. It's kind of hard to say. Well, here's why I ask that, though, if you know, before it's all done, Benoit got a chance. I mean, Benoit was the world champ and I know he forfeited the next day and he went home. But to me, you know, Benoit and Eddie Guerrero, same, same as far as in ring. Yeah, but, you know, what was the reasoning behind Benoit getting that title?

Starting point is 00:48:09 What was the logic behind it? I don't think it was, again, I wasn't not clear on what the backstage politics and the reasoning was as I sit here and do this podcast. But I'm almost convinced as I sit here without knowing any other information that it was probably more politics than anything else, not because anybody saw him as a guy who could carry the company and be a world heavyweight champion for any length of time. I mean, it's one thing to put a belt on a guy or put the world championship on a guy for a short period of time as a transition or to elevate that character for a period of time. There's a big difference in that and putting the championship on a particular performer because you really feel that you can build a business long term around it. I doubt that anybody really thought that they could build a business long-term or on Chris Benoit as the world champion.

Starting point is 00:49:05 All right. Just my opinion. No, I'm not mad at it. Listen, I appreciate you sharing it. By the way, we're talking over a really, really good match. You should go out of your way to see it. If you're going to watch one match on this show, I think it should probably be this one. They only go six minutes and 40 seconds, but tons of false finishes, lots of pinning

Starting point is 00:49:26 combinations they're trying to pull out all the stops here and they're doing a good job they did a good job and these two guys had a lot of backstory together uh bam any growro nice drop kick yeah you won the title but you're going to eat my boots i like this get a little heat back come on get a little heat back um i think you know the audience knew that when you got in the ring when these two guys got in the ring that they were going to have a hell of a match and be highly entertained just because of the backstory in their history. Holy smokes, Eddie Guerrero, that's a creative way to get your heat back coming off the top rope. Yeah, with a hell of a frog splash on top of the cruiserweight title, it gets three and a quarter star as much like the match before it.

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Starting point is 00:52:47 Speaking of action and what's going on, it's Guerrero and Benoit, and these guys are tearing it down. You got to love just being able to plug these two guys in for about 15 minutes and knowing they're going to put on a classic match. Yeah, you're going to see a clinic every single time. You're going to see a clinic. And this is absolutely no exception. So it would be announced during this match here, Eric, that Rick Flair and Eddie Guerrero are going to face off for the United States Belt at Hogg Wild.

Starting point is 00:53:15 Who's coming up with Eddie taking on Flair? Is this your idea, Kevin Sullivan's idea? Or is it just, you know, is Flair pushing for this? In terms of the next step in his story as the U.S. champion, is he want to give some guys a rub here that are up in commerce? I would point to Kevin Sullivan. I think what Kevin was trying to do, and I think did successfully, was elevate guys like Eddie by getting him a little more experience

Starting point is 00:53:43 with some of the higher profile talent, getting the rub, as they say in the industry. You know, as great as Eddie was, Eddie was relatively new to the mass American audience. That's saying people hadn't seen him before. I know he had been other places, but had very limited exposure to the national prime time viewing audience. And you want to help elevate talent like that at this point in his career.

Starting point is 00:54:10 I've got to keep saying that because dipshit's like that guy that asked the question about the one good idea. You know, you've got to say things over and over and over again to them. It's like training a fucking dog. The key to learning, repetition. No, do not piss on the carpet. No, do not piss on the carpet. So, yeah, one of the things you'd have to do sometimes is take a guy like Getty and go, okay, let's, let's have it.

Starting point is 00:54:33 Because you know he's going to have a great match with Rick Flair. And you know, Rick Flair's going to put him over and make him look like a million dollars. And I venture to guess. It's a guess at this point that that's what Kevin was thinking. Yeah. Next up, we've got Diamond Dallas Page. He is the Battle Bowl ring. champion. They're calling him the battle bowl champion, but really it's the ring. And Eddie Guerrero is

Starting point is 00:54:56 going to be here challenging for it. Eddie's not yet over with the crowd, but man, he's one of the best wrestlers in the world. Diamond Dallas Page also probably not over with the crowd, but they're at least responding to the diamond cutter. But that's not a part of the match. The frog splash comes out of nowhere and Eddie Guerrero gets the pen and wins the battle bowl ring. Meltzer would say it was a good match, but too short. But after the match, a DDP hit not one, but two diamond cutters before Chavo Grillo comes in to make the save, but that doesn't keep Eddie from taking a third diamond cutter, this one off the top rope. And the diamond cutter's over. It's getting big pops and big reactions from the crowd. I dug it. What did you

Starting point is 00:55:36 think? I really enjoyed watching it, but probably for different reasons. I, you know, I love DDP, he's a close friend of me and my family. Um, I admire. him for what he's really done. He's made a bigger impact, you know, outside of the wrestling business that he did inside. He's had more success outside of the wrestling business than he did inside. I just admire anybody like that, but especially somebody who's a friend. Eddie, I just, I go back to these matches now in the 90s. And in Eddie's case, certainly well into 2000s with WW. And I'm just, every time I watch him, I'm in awe. I just don't. I am never not in awe of watching Eddie Guerrero work, whether it was early in WCW or at the peak of his career in WWE. It's just that

Starting point is 00:56:34 guy that just makes you go, holy shit. It's like when I watch Muhammad Ali. I, I, I, anybody that follows me on social media knows it. I'm just a huge fan of Muhammad Ali. There's a picture. of them up behind me. There's one with me of Muhammad Ali together in Detroit. I'm a huge Muhammad Ali fan. And I still, to this day, go back and watch some of his fights. And I'm in awe of him and his abilities. I feel the same way about Eddie Guerrero. You can't watch an Eddie Guerrero even if you've seen it a dozen times and not go, shit, this guy was something way different. than you see anywhere. And it's really fun for me.

Starting point is 00:57:19 And the reason I like this match so much, and it's an example of why or how I don't watch wrestling the way most people, some people do. But I'm watching DDP now, and he still got the, you know, gimmick of the day approach to life. Yeah. His character,

Starting point is 00:57:38 it just looked fucking ridiculous. The way he carried himself was ridiculous. It didn't really get heat. It was just, eh, he was just that guy that showed. up at a party you didn't really want to throw them out but you didn't want to be seen with them either that was kind of like ddp's character at this point um but it was emerging

Starting point is 00:57:56 now as you as you relaying as you're setting this conversation up you talk about how well ddp's not really over but man the diamond cutter's getting a pop it's getting a pop do you really want a heel to get a pop no but i'm saying that moves over and it's a long time since a move has been over true true no and i and i agree with you i'm a hundred percent agreeing with you here i don't know that i would not have 20 20 hindsight it's free and it's easy and everybody has it which is why it doesn't mean shit but would not this is a what if scenario hypothetical what if that diamond cutter would have been page had it you know, practiced it, executed it, perfected it,

Starting point is 00:58:49 but saved it until he turned baby face. It would have gotten over even more. Yeah. As opposed to introducing the move that obviously got such a big of action. People still talk about it, mostly Paige. Sorry, Paige. But, man, I would have loved to have seen that move, that move be debuted once Paige got into that baby face. man of the people kind of character it would have been even bigger it's uh interesting booking

Starting point is 00:59:22 you know it feels like a lot of times even if uh you know when somebody does lose you know the guy who lost is looking to i got to give my heat back brother and they accomplished that here so i'm saying some clips here of a de guerrero and chris bin juan randy anderson's our referee sadly everyone on screen is no longer with us including bin was valet woman And that's pretty crazy to think, dude. This was just 25 years ago. And literally every participant no longer with us. Wow.

Starting point is 00:59:54 It's, yeah, that's a, that's a head trick. Yeah. It's heavy right out of the shoot. Women helping Chris Benoit out. Benoit and woman are back here tonight from the tour of Germany. A lot has gone on. A lot has gone on. gone down here comes chrispinua out now and apparently he is out here by himself the one

Starting point is 01:00:22 expense goes on to starcade to meet dallas page where it's woman so we got eddie guerrero here taken on chris pinot in the opening match is that's just just saying that doesn't it it sounds weird even now right it's unbelievable when you think about just the talent you've got. And I know we've talked a lot. And Lord, I just absolutely loved when you would open the show with cruiser weights. And I guess maybe somebody somewhere would argue, well, these are technically cruiser weights, but this has got, these have got to be two of the five best wrestlers in the world at this point. And they're the opening match. It's unbelievable. It really is. And I know, as you pointed out, you know, Chris, no longer with us. Eddie no longer with this.

Starting point is 01:01:12 Randy Anderson no longer with this woman no longer with this but in a way they kind of are yeah and in a way when we go back and we watch this stuff they're with us in such a positive way you know this is what we want to remember about the people that we grew up watching and idolizing

Starting point is 01:01:30 or just enjoying you know as fans depending on how old you are obviously I think the idolization probably you know starts to wear off after you're about 18 or 20 for some for most people not not all of them But here we get to watch Eddie when Eddie was, you know, arguably either at his peak or damn close to it. Chris Benoit, never been another performer in the ring like him since.

Starting point is 01:01:53 I may never will be. He was a very unique performer and had his own style and signature way of doing things. You know, even his entrance. It was a little bit like Dean Malenko there, not a lot of emotion, taking it very seriously, setting the tone as he's making his way. you know, to the ring. It's just, it was all part of the show. And, and Chris's approach to it was very unique. But to be able to see these guys and, and, and, and girl, uh, performing probably

Starting point is 01:02:26 where they were happiest in their life kind of offsets the, the fact that they're no longer with us to me. Maybe some secrets for wealth preservation and whatnot that we can recommend thanks to our partner at nationwide coin. this podcast is sponsored by nationwide coins and nationwide coins sells government gold at cost how about that all new customers receive their first ounce of gold without any dealer markup maybe you're not sure where to start well nationwide coins has precious metal consultants on staff that you can call that's right you heard me pick up the phone and call and they'll help guide you

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Starting point is 01:04:50 83 weeks and now Eddie Guerrero is going to jump into the ring here to take on Scott Norton talk about some talented in ring performers here I don't know if this is going to be styles clash but we'll see it's going to be star and a quarter recording the Meltzer they get five and a half minutes but we know Eddie Guerrero is one. of the best wrestler in the world and Scott Norton, a man's man. I love the extra stuff here, you know, way back when you used to have referees and wrestling check the opponents, but boy, he is being so meticulous as he checks Eddie Guerrero's boots and wrist tape and it's old school, but fun.

Starting point is 01:05:28 It's old school, but fun and it says, you know, it tells a story right off the bat, you know, opening moments of act one and he did a great job. You talk about Scott Norton, you know, people talk today about strong style, like it's something new. You know, Scott Norton, I think, was one of the best representatives of, and it was referred to as a strong style back then in New Japan. Scott had so much experience in New Japan, one of Masa Saito's favorite American competitors and spent a lot of time over there as a result and work with some of the top names in Japan. But you're right, man, this is potentially a clash of styles here on the clash of champions because Scott is used to working with real big men in that very stiff, strong style, New Japan style wrestling.

Starting point is 01:06:19 And here he's working with, you know, a high flyer in two totally different styles. So it's going to be interesting to see how this plays out. I wanted to ask you about some publicity that WCW was getting at the time. Ray Mysterio and the giant appeared on Regis and Kathy Lee the day before Hulk Hall and Nash were all on the show. Lots of WCW on a pretty big time show as far as daytime television goes. Regis had had long time had a big time WWF relationship. And now you got WCW stars on the show. How did this come to be? Hulk. Oh, well. Yeah. I mean, That was one of the, you know, there were a lot of reasons why we wanted to bring

Starting point is 01:07:05 Hulk Kilgan in back in 1994. We've talked about a lot of those reasons, you know, prior, so I won't go through it again. But, you know, Hulk had, you know, media relationships and personal relationships that evolved out of the business side of it that made, you know, getting some of WCW talent on much easier than that would have otherwise been. But that was really Hulk and his relationship with Regis. more than it had anything to do with WCW.

Starting point is 01:07:33 The fact that we were hot helped, but it was really, Hulk Hogan was the, he was the ambassador for WCW when it came to that kind of thing. I would not want to take a Scott Norton chop. I would not want to take a Scott Norton anything. By the way,

Starting point is 01:07:48 Scott Norton, despite his reputation, his abilities, his strength, his power, one of the kindest, gentlest people you'll ever meet. And also one of the funniest,

Starting point is 01:07:59 if you ever have a chance, Conrad to sit down, you know, over a meal and have a couple of cocktails with a guy. And you just want to hear some great stories. Scott Norton's one of the best, man. We got to look at him on a dark side of the ring when they were covering the North Korea event that we did together. Yeah. You didn't get to see the funny side of Scott there, but, and he is hilarious, but you get

Starting point is 01:08:22 him going to go on. And so is his wife. His wife's a riot. She's funny, too. At some point here, we're going to have, uh, a bit of a surprise so we'll be sure to track that because it gets a big pop let's remind you that eight days prior diamond Dallas page turned down the opportunity to join the NWO of course Scott Norton is a part of the NWO proudly representing the NWO not only here but in Japan

Starting point is 01:08:48 and of course we've got an NWO referee so it's NWO style if you will and I think we might see an emergence from ddp and and that diamond cutter is was already over but now after he has turned down the NWO and laid out Scott hall with the diamond cutter and left through the crowd he is really a made man oh what a power bomb right there was goodness oh that was amazing good and if you're going to take a power bomb from somebody and you want the audience to believe it Scott Norton's a guy to do it that was more visual that just looked like it shook every bone in Eddie's body loose. Took the wind out of me just watching it.

Starting point is 01:09:38 Oh, and Eddie was playing possum drop kick on the Scott Norton as he's perched up top. A couple European uppercuts and what's Eddie got in mind here? This is an interesting move because so far throughout this match, Eddie was doing the little man, big man thing where he was trying to take Norton out. You saw him earlier on the match. you know working over scott's legs attacking the knees you know chopping down the oak tree as you might say and here he's kind of going toe to toe with him you know surprised to see him go up in the corner with him a much bigger guy but it works this is the show where we started

Starting point is 01:10:14 with rodman we got an incoherent piper promo an incoherent flare promo someone attack vk wall street let's listen to eddie and main jean here either i did talk to some uh vacationing people here from Michigan, some, I think they're from the University of Michigan, and they're here celebrating spring break. But Eddie Guerrero, they're asking me the question I think that everybody is. Is it us or is it Eddie Guerrero? What's going on? You know what? I am not the one that is saying I'm a new and improved dresser, am I? No, that's Dean Balenko. That's right. Am I punching and kicking and choking uncharacteristically like somebody I know is it no you got a point that's Dean Monaco also that's right so who's the person that doesn't seem to be himself well now wait a

Starting point is 01:11:08 second there Eddie I'm going to stop you that's you you don't seem to be yourself hey look I'm getting sick and tired of everybody my friends think I'm changing my family things I'm changing you think I'm changing Look, I'm just getting sick and tired of it. Dean Malenko, you keep accusing me for your attitude. I'm really getting sick and tired of this. If anybody made a mistake in this, this is you, Dean Malico. Because you know what you did? You told me your game plan.

Starting point is 01:11:40 And if you think that I'm going to give mine, well, let me put it to you this way. I'll see you Sunday at Uncensored. Indeed they are well. going to be Malenko and Guerrero head on United. Boy, I know this is the beginning of an Eddie Guerrero he'll turn and he's going to do his best work in WCW to me as a bad guy. But did he evolve as a promo in time or what? He really did.

Starting point is 01:12:06 He found his feet, so to speak. He wasn't dancing around it. He knew what he wanted to say. He found his character. And his confidence just went through the roof. And once you get to that point where you're so confident and you're not afraid of that microphone. You're not afraid of being put on the spot. You're not intimidated by doing a live promo. Once you actually start looking forward to doing them, the impact that confidence has on you

Starting point is 01:12:32 and the quality of your promos is amazing. Because you're no longer memorizing every single thing you're supposed to say. You're allowing yourself to feel the things that you're saying. And once you can start actually feeling it and you're not concentrating on memorizing it, the audience feels it with you. And that's where it all changes. I just had this conversation with Tony about old school JCP last week. I want to ask you this week. In hindsight, would you have preferred that we do the interviews with the guys

Starting point is 01:13:03 before the match as opposed to after the match? I think Eddie could have said, hey, everybody wants to say I've changed. Watch this match and see if I wrestle the same way I always did. See if I'm taking shortcuts. See if I pull the hair, hold the tights. but my point is, I think after a match, sometimes the guy's, but he can't catch his breath. He's blown up.

Starting point is 01:13:24 And so maybe he's not at his best promo wise and he's not in his best entertainment wise when he's trying to catch his breath. In hindsight, should we always try to do it before as opposed to after when we can? I don't think there's any, you know, one way to do things. It always depends on the talent and it depends on the situation. I like the fact that talent is blowed up, because that feels real to me. It does real, real. And the level of emotion, particularly with less experienced talent.

Starting point is 01:13:56 And at this point, Eddie was finding his way in terms of promos. In the ring, he was at home. He could have a great match in his sleep. But with a microphone in front of him and the red camera, red light on the camera, right in his face, he wasn't his home at that point. but when you get somebody who's great in the ring and maybe not so great in a promo, getting that real emotion from them post-match is often better than anything that you're going to get from them pre-match.

Starting point is 01:14:30 That's my opinion. It's a matter of taste. But again, I think you've got to mix it up. And that depends on the situation and the talent. Well, let's talk about the LWO. It's formed around this same time, led by Eddie Guerrero. Talk to me about how the LWO comes to be. We would see them start to try to recruit Ray Mysterio, and he's going to deny him.

Starting point is 01:14:54 I'm going to do my best to recall as many of the details as I can on this idea. I think I got most of it down pretty well, but I was in Los Angeles for a meeting with Mandalay Sports and Entertainment. At the time, Jason, and by the way, a little background on Mandalay Sports and Entertainment, owned by a gentleman by the name of Peter Goober. Yep, Peter Goober. G-U-B-E-R. Interesting kind of quirky name, Goober, but one of the most successful people in the entertainment business at that time. He was a former chairman of Sony Pictures.

Starting point is 01:15:41 He currently, I believe, is part owner in Los Angeles Dodgers. His studio, Mandalay Entertainment and then Mandalay Sports and Entertainment, two different companies under the same umbrella, has probably produced some of the top feature films that you've seen over the last 20 years. So, very, very successful guy. And I had a meeting there at Mandalay Sports and Entertainment. Jason Hervey was there at the time, and we went out to lunch. And I believe we were, we were either in a Greek restaurant or a Mexican restaurant. I can't remember which. But that's when we got into the conversation about, you know, the NWO and how successful it was.

Starting point is 01:16:25 And, you know, on and on and on. We're talking about that. And I think it was Jason Hervey that actually came up with the idea of the Latino world order. And I don't know if he threw it out. You know, Jason wasn't working for us at the time. Again, he was working for Mandalay Sports and Entertainment. But, you know, we were friends and Jason was obviously a big wrestling fan. And Jason and I had some, you know, projects together during that period of time.

Starting point is 01:16:48 And he threw the idea out there. And I'm not sure if he threw it out as a joke or if he was serious about it or a little bit of both. But nonetheless, it kind of took on. And I, you know, I talked to Eddie about it. And Eddie was pretty, he thought it was a pretty cool idea. He got excited about it. And there you go. Well, something I know that is a joy of yours, Eric, is you love getting out.

Starting point is 01:17:08 You love meeting the fans. you love spending time with them and you're going to get to do that again Russellcade weekend right around the corner it's a three-day family friendly convention for fans of wrestling and sports entertainment it brings together more than a hundred and twenty-five

Starting point is 01:17:23 of your favorite different wrestling stars from all eras they've got live pro wrestling paper views all three days they've got meet and greets with your favorite wrestling stars they've got question and answer panels they've got live wrestling podcasts they've got costume contests

Starting point is 01:17:38 they've got wrestling related merch for sale and so much more. It's all happening at the Benton Convention Center in Winston-Salem, North Carolina, November 24th to November 26th. And our very own Eric Bischoff will be on-site, representing ad-free shows.com. And be sure to check out a live version of Extreme Life of Matt Hardy, as Matt and John Albaugh will be on stage that Friday night at 8.30 p.m. Eastern. Tickets are on sale now so you can meet Eric Bischoff and see him in person,

Starting point is 01:18:09 bring your camera, bring your old WCW and WWE merch, pictures and autographs abound. Here we go. Russellkade.com is ready to get those tickets. That's wrestlecade.com. That's wrestle cade.com. Let's get to the real main event of this entire show. It's Ray Mysterio Jr. and Eddie Guerrero. And if you're going to watch one match this week, that's not on current TV.

Starting point is 01:18:35 Go out of your way to watch this one. You won't see any better. The Wrestling Observer reader poll, it was a runaway for the best match on the car. They had 147 votes. 140 of them were for this match. I don't know how this is possible. Meltzer only gave it four and three-quarter stars. This is, uh, this to me is, is a five-star or better if such a thing exists.

Starting point is 01:18:57 What a story. It's video game shit they're doing in this. It's 13 minutes and 51 seconds for the cruiserweight title and Ray Mysterio gets the win. I don't know that we can put this over enough. or talk intelligently enough to properly convey just how special this was. But there is a really remarkable segment midway through the match where they've got, they're doing like a test of strength. So both hands are clenched.

Starting point is 01:19:24 And then they start to involve their feet. And Mysterio goes to the top rope and then does a flip into a reverse DDT. And it is video game level stuff, one high spot after another. But they told a story the entire way. It's not just flips and dive. for the sake of flips and dives. And I'm not shitting on flips and dives. I'm a big fan of that, too.

Starting point is 01:19:44 But this was remarkably well done. I can't put it over enough. I've just got to say, go watch it. I'm sure you feel the same way. Damn, this was so incredible. I think this may have been, if this is not the best Eddie Guerr, we're representative of some of Eddie Guerrero's finest work ever,

Starting point is 01:20:06 and Ray Mysterio's finest work ever, I don't know what it is. I know they've had bigger matches, they each had higher profile matches and, you know, we're part of WrestleMania's and all those other wonderful things. But in terms of the quality of the match, I really mean this. I challenge anybody to go to WWE Network, go to Halloween Havoc, 1997, watch this match, and then please reach out to me on social media at Ebishoff on Twitter and let me know if you think you've seen a better match than this match. the last 20 years. Not a bigger match, a better match. This was, this is, that was a classic,

Starting point is 01:20:47 it is still a classic matchup that I think anybody that's in the industry today really, they owe themselves the benefit of spending 20 or 30 minutes and going back and watching this match because it has it all. It has unbelievably incredible athletic presentation. the timing, the Christmas, the psychology, the characters. I mean, Eddie Guerrero had so much heat during this match. And even though he lost the match, maintained his heat at the very end. Ray Mysterio was over like a son of a bitch because of what they did in the ring.

Starting point is 01:21:31 And the way they told their stories and the way they managed their characters and presented those characters. It was just, it's a classic. to this day I don't know that I've seen a better match of this of this style you know what I mean about this I'm gonna say something here we've never really talked about I think this is the best match that happened in WCW while you were running the company I I don't disagree from a presentation point of view wasn't the biggest match didn't draw the most money didn't change the course of the wrestling industry but damn it probably was not probably it was I think the best match that we've ever put on and I think it's set more importantly I think it's set the tone for the next when was this 1997 2007 2007 for the next 25 years this matches this is a bar that I don't think anybody objectively could look at this match and say that they could point to another match in recent times that's as good as this all the way around

Starting point is 01:22:38 All the way around. Again, I want to be sure I'm clear here. Yes, there's been bigger matches. Yes, there's been matches with more emotion behind them. Yes, there's been bigger main event matches that have drawn more money. But please, please point me to a match that move for move, minute for minute, second for second, could come close to what you will see in this match. It's really incredible. And that's not because of me.

Starting point is 01:23:04 That was Eddie Guerrero and Ray Mysterio. you know i'm not patting myself on the back for this this is all them it was such a fantastic match all right boys and girls that'll do it for us this week here on 83 weeks we hope you've appreciated our strolled on memory lane we tried to pay 80 girl as much justice as we could uh and celebrate such an incredible person an incredible performer man just gone way too soon i can't imagine the legacy and how that legacy would have grown and continue to grown uh has had he been with us imagine how much fun he'd be having with everything that's happening with WW and AW these days. It really is something else.

Starting point is 01:23:43 I want to remind you, by the way, if you haven't already, advertise with Eric.com is where you can get your men 25 to 54. You hear some of the same sponsors on our program over and over and over. Why is that? Well, because it really works. By the way, the easiest and cheapest way to support the show is to check us out on YouTube. That's pretty easy. That's 83 weeks on YouTube.com.

Starting point is 01:24:03 Just hit the like and subscribe button. 83 weeks on YouTube.com. Of course, love to have your questions. We're actually taking your questions for next week's topic right now over on Twitter at 83 weeks. Also got plenty of merch available for you as well

Starting point is 01:24:18 over at box of gimmicks.com. And of course, if you haven't already, I highly recommend that you check out Eric Bischoff's brand brand new book spent out for less than a year now. Grateful. It's available now and you can find it on Amazon. Just look for Grateful by Eric Bischoff.

Starting point is 01:24:34 And Eric and I will be back. back next week same bat time same bat channel we'll be talking about the good the bad and the ugly of professional wrestling right here on 83 weeks with eric bischoff hey hey it's conrad thompson here to tell you a little more about what adfree shows dot com is all about get early ad free access to more than a dozen of your favorite wrestling podcast every single week starting at just nine bucks that's less than 20 cents an episode each month and yes you can listen to them all directly through Apple Podcasts or your regular podcast apps. How easy is that? Ad-free shows also has thousands of hours worth of bonus content and docu-series like

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83 Weeks with Eric Bischoff - Episode 293: Eddie Guerrero

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