83 Weeks with Eric Bischoff - Episode 344: Dixie Carter

Episode Date: October 18, 2024

On this episode of 83Weeks, Eric and Conrad discuss former owner of TNA Dixie Carter! Eric shares stories of his time working alongside Dixie and his time with Total Non Stop Action. The guys also discuss all the current happenings in the world of professional wrestling. PRIZE PICKS - Download the app today and use code 83WEEKS to get $50 instantly after you play your first $5 lineup! PrizePicks. Run Your Game! MANDO - Control Body Odor ANYWHERE with @shop.mando and get $5 off your Starter Pack (that’s over 40% off) with promo 83WEEKS at https://shopmando.com/! #mandopod LUMEN - Take the next step in improving your health, go to https://www.lumen.me/83WEEKS to get 15% off your Lumen.  BLUECHEW - Try BlueChew FREE when you use our promo code 83WEEKS at checkout--just pay $5 shipping. That’s https://bluechew.com/, promo code 83WEEKS to receive your first month FREE HENSON SHAVING - It’s time to say no to subscriptions and yes to a razor that’ll last you a lifetime. Visit https://hensonshaving.com/?srsltid=AfmBOopQgo4zqoJFe44B6AjA6xSZ-QByPQp4eGKkrL7tbsjO8KQE4ShK/BISCHOFF to pick the razor for you and use code BISCHOFF and you’ll get two years' worth of blades free with your razor–just make sure to add them to your cart. MAGIC SPOON - MAGIC SPOON - Get $5 off your next order through https://magicspoon.com/83WEEKS , or look for Magic Spoon in your nearest grocery store! SAVE WITH ERIC - Stop throwing your money on rent! Get into a house with NO MONEY DOWN and roughly the same monthly payment at https://www.savewithconrad.com/savewitheric/ ADVERTISE WITH ERIC - If your business targets 25-54 year old men, there's no better place to advertise than right here with us on 83 Weeks. You've heard us do ads for some of the same companies for years...why? Because it works! And with our super targeted audience, there's very little waste. Go to https://www.podcastheat.com/advertise now and find out more about advertising with 83 Weeks. Join this channel to get access to perks: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCCqQc7Pa1u4plPXq-d1pHqQ/join BECOME A 83 WEEK MEMBER NOW: https://www.youtube.com/@83weeks/membership Get all of your 83 Weeks merchandise at https://boxofgimmicks.com/collections/83-weeks Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey, hey, it's Conrad Thompson, and you're listening to 83 weeks with their fish off. Eric, what's going on, man? How are you? I'm good, buddy. Good. Good to be here. Glad to be back home. Had a fantastic week.

And this is B and I and Nikki jumped in the truck and drove to Minneapolis to visit my brother and sister. and my brother's going through some stuff right now. I thought he was out of it, but he's back in it. So just kind of there to give him some moral support. And Lori's uncle, Al, Uncle Al, turned 80 years old last weekend. So we went to surprise him and show up at his birthday party, which was really cool.

He's still such a fun guy. I took Rick Steiner hunting with Al and his brother, Gary, who's since passed up. Craig Colorado and Al loved hanging out with Rich Steyer. He laughed the whole trip. But we did that and then just went out to some apple orchards. You know, apple orchards are a big deal in Minnesota. A lot of great apple orchards up there.

And in the fall, when they harvest the apples, there's all these like apple festivals at these various different apple orchards. So we went out in the country and did some of that Sunday afternoon. and found a couple great restaurants along the way on the way back. Then went down to LaCross and visited our friends, Bob and Tammy Needercorn in Holman, Wisconsin. They have the heritage meat market down there that they started themselves. And they are just kicking ass.

They're doing such a great job. Visited them. Then we drill. And the fall colors are amazing. Man, I wish everybody would get a chance to see, see the fall colors in certain areas of the country like we did drove down along the Mississippi River down to Decorah, Iowa went to an art gallery there in front of ours has got some art that's being displayed there so we went down to visit that and support him

and then drove home it's been quite the trip had an absolute blast though I had some great food along the way found a couple great I found a great restaurant in Bismarck, North Dakota I'm starting to get good at this stuff great restaurant and Anyway, enough of that, my vacation. How long of a drive is that? It was about 14 hours to Minneapolis, but we, you know, we slow roll it. We like to explore stuff. So if we see a little time along the way, we'll stop in and check it out.

So it's about a 14 hour drive, then another three hours down on lacrosse. So it wasn't that far of a drive. That's pretty fun to, I've always appreciated that you and the wife, man, y'all are road trippers. I mean, you've done so many of those big trips, even from Wyoming. to Florida. I mean, that's a hall right there, is it not? Yeah, that's, I don't know that, well, we'll do it again, but that's not for fun. That's, that's, that's, that one's work. But these are just, you know, 14 hour road trip for me is like, it's relaxation, you know, half the time we're

in the cell zone, can't get some phone calls, can't sit and look at your phone and check messages and all that. So it's really relaxing. Well, I'm glad you had a relaxing trip because today I'm going to bust your balls like I do every week and 83 weeks. If you haven't already, what are you waiting for? Go hit the subscribe button. Turn on the notifications bell. You don't want to miss the next time we're live. And Eric is live all the time.

We've even got a little membership over there. So there's exclusive videos for members only. Eric's been absolutely wearing it out. And we've gotten a lot of great feedback. I have, uh, I've seen a tremendous amount of feedback about us talking about the cruiser weights last week. Eric, what was the feedback you saw about that episode? All good, all positive and a lot of it.

And that was, I have to say, Conrad, you know, this happens, fortunately, it happens a lot with us. But that was one of the shows that as soon as we were done, I just knew that that was for me. I had so much fun doing that show and going through it with you that I kind of felt like it had to be one of the better shows we've done. It was such a fun show. Check it out if you haven't already. 83 weeks.com. It's about creating the cruiserweight division. lots of rumor and innuendo that we clear up along the way and we really sort of highlight

what a force ray mysterio was erika noah's companion pieces for that episode you did your top five cruiserweight matches your top five cruiser weights in wcd all of those videos are available now at 83 weeks.com today our topic is going to be something totally different and for much later we're talking about dixie carter and dixie carter and dixie carter is somebody that I feel like, you know, history has maybe not been the kindest to. And I want to celebrate some of her contributions to professional wrestling. But more importantly, I want to understand more about the dynamic that existed between your relationship with Dixie Carter.

Because there's lots of false narratives out there about your time in T and I, I think. Would you agree with that? Oh, yeah. Like I was running the company and making decisions and hiring. and firing people and all that. Yeah. Well, let's, let's start at the beginning.

When did you first hear about Dixie Carter? How was she on your radar? Were you keeping up with what was going on in TNA? Or were you completely unplugged from T&A until Hulkster gives you a call? Or how does that all come together? Yeah, I was completely unplugged. I, you know, not because I, you know,

wasn't interested in wrestling or had a bad taste of my mouth about anybody or anything. It wasn't that. It was just, I was pretty busy. Jason Harvey and I were, we're killing it in Hollywood and producing a lot of shows. And, you know, I was fairly busy. And, you know, I was living in L.A., you know, three or four days of the week. And then I'd fly home for the weekend, you know, the long weekend or Lori would fly out to L.A.

I kept an apartment down on 3rd Street in Santa Monica, really nice, you know, block off the beach and all that. So it was a nice place, you know, but still, you know, two-bedroom apartment, but it was nice. um so i just didn't have time and i wasn't interested at the time i had so much other stuff going on and just i knew of t and a i hadn't i don't think i'd ever watched an episode before i got a call to a come and meet dixie i certainly watched an episode or two before i took the meeting but um yeah it was totally off my radar man june of o two is when t and a is first created right up the road for me in huntsville alabama and the following following month is when you make your debut for Vince McMahon in the WWV. So it was almost a hell

has frozen over type moment in professional wrestling. But there was certainly speculation at the time that perhaps Vince McMahon reached out to you in an effort to prevent you from going to T&A. Have you heard that before? The timing does have some people a little curious. Oh, gosh. People are so, it's amazing how creative, people could be in the imaginations that, you know, you, you come across in the world of social media, like if those people can apply that same kind of imagination and creativity to something productive, like, I don't know, writing a book or movie or a song or something, the world would be a better place. But no, that's the first I've heard of that. And I think it's

pretty laughable. So let's talk about, you know, when you first are aware of TNA, like, do you remember getting a call from Jeff or Jerry or anybody in those early formative days of TNA? Was anybody ever kicking the tires just to take your temperature? Yeah, early on, I think when, uh, in the very beginning before TNA initially had even lost and it was the, um, it was Jeff Jarrett and Jerry Jarrett that were behind it all. I did get a call from both of them. They were both on the same call.

And I remember specifically because I was driving between Las Vegas, or excuse me, Phoenix and Las Vegas. I was headed up to Vegas for a meeting. And we were living in Phoenix at the time. So I remember exactly the phone call because I was concerned about losing cell service along the way. So I had to pull over and sit on the side of the road for 20 minutes or a half hour and turn to the call.

And you just weren't interested? What was the call like? Brief explanation of what they were doing back then. Again, this is a minute ago, so some of these details may be sketchy. And I apologize to Jeff, if I'm getting any of this wrong. It's not my intention. But I think they explained, I know they explained the idea of doing, I think it was weekly paper views.

And I, I, or pay-per-views without television. That's right. That was the idea. And I, I, I, that was a brick wall for me. I just couldn't wrap my head around that idea. Um, so I politely, you know, I appreciated the phone call. And it was one call. They basically explained to me what they were doing and wanted to know if I may be

interested. And it was a very curious, amicable call. And I thank them, let them know that I was. pretty busy with the things I was doing and I just wouldn't be able to dedicate any time to it. In truth, I just didn't see the model. I couldn't wrap my head around that revenue model of pay-per-view only, even if it's, you know, $9.99. And then, you know, later on, we found out that Jay Haskman, who I had worked with, he was the guy responsible for the cat's ass logo. So I find out that, you know,

Jay was involved and I further distanced myself from the opportunity. I just, and again, not because it wasn't a good opportunity, but because I was just focused on other things. You know, I don't know how to ask this. So I'm, I'm just going to ask as best I can. When Bruce Pritchard left WWE and then had a cup of coffee with T and A, he felt like after the T&A experience, wrestling was in his rearview mirror. wrestling had decided it didn't want Bruce Pritchard and he had decided he didn't want it back.

And it was a similar story to Tony Chivani. He felt like, you know, maybe he hoped one day he'd be able to go to work for WWE once WCW closed the doors. It never happened. And he had spent just a boatload of time in the industry and I don't know. I think it's probably fair to say both of those guys got a little bitter towards wrestling. Now we know they're back knee deep. It's their lifelong passion and they're loving it and having it.

having more success than they've ever had in their entire career. But was that a process you went through to, Eric, where after WCW went down, you were like, this is, I just don't have the passion. It's not there anymore. I don't want to compete with Vince. I don't want to go be a part of a startup. I don't mind taking a paycheck to go work for events a little bit here and there because it's easy and I can do it.

But that fire in the belly for professional wrestling, it's just burnout. Did that happen to you at any point? Sure, of course. It varying, you know, to varying degrees over a long period of time, it's, you know, that feeling has come up a couple times. That wasn't the issue when I got the phone call from Jerry and Jeff. It really was. I'm just so focused on what I'm doing.

We're kicking ass. I didn't want the distraction. One of the problems that I have, Conrad, in my life, And it's not uncommon, especially with entrepreneurs, is focus. And it's a real legitimate challenge for me because it's so easy for me to get excited about things, projects, ideas, opportunities. And I end up taking on more than I should, even if it's not taking a lot of my time in terms of me physically having to be somewhere.

If it's occupying time inside of my head, I have to pay attention. I have to pay attention to that. I have to be careful not to overextend myself. So for me, it wasn't so much bitter or bad taste in my mouth or none of that. It was just, okay, I've done that. I've done the wrestling thing. Kind of bend to the mountain top, achieved quite a bit, which things would have turned out different. But all in all, you know, I was pretty happy with where I was at, what I accomplished, and was ready to move on.

But there was no bitterness or anger or resentment, nothing like that. But throughout, you know, the last however long it's been, 20 years, I don't know, I lost track of time. There are certain points in time, including right now, by the way, as we speak, where a wrestling project pops up. And even though my initial reaction is, no, thanks, my head's over here, it's not over there. Certain things pop up that I just can't resist. And I try to fight that a little bit. You know, I try to fight it a lot. But if an opportunity is so interesting, you know, I'll end up taking it.

But they're few and far between, mostly because, again, I, this is a lot. And I, this is going to, I'm having a hard time saying this mostly because I'm functioning on about two and a half hour's sleep, but also because I don't want to come off arrogant or cocky or full of myself. I'm well aware of what I accomplished and what I didn't accomplish. People remind me every day on social media, so it's hard to forget. But wrestling to me has to be a really unique challenge. if I'm going to get back into wrestling,

it has to be, there has to be a really compelling idea or reason for me to get excited about it. Again, because I've been to the mountain top. You know, I did what I did in WCW. You know, my time in WWE, I'm never going to beat that

in terms of being an on-camera performer. When all I had to do was show up on Monday morning and learn my lines and rehearse my character, and go out there and just have a freaking blast. That's all I did for however many years I was there, three or four, whatever I was. I'm not going to beat that. So if I know I'm not going to reach a higher level with an endeavor, then it's really hard for me to get excited about it unless, like I said,

it's something really interested. So I've gone through what Bruce and I'm sure Jeff has gone through. And we all go through it and we find those opportunities. We get excited again. And then like Tony and Jeff, they're experiencing, you know, Jeff in particular. I mean, he's living as, he's living a dream, man. He's out there in his mid-50s. He looks like a million bucks.

He's out there working with, you know, kids that are 25, 30 years old. And he's out working them all day long. And he's having fun doing it. And that's, that's how you retire. You know, I'm not a big fan of retirement. But if you're going to wind down your career, you do it like Jeff or you do it like Tony Shabani. I'm so happy for both of those guys because they found that thing about wrestling that could get them excited. Well, here's something we can all get excited about. You can now

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you'll have some sporadic appearances here and there but there's a couple of years where you're just seemingly solely focusing on your non wrestling ventures if you will during that 07 to 09 timeframe or at any point prior to that had you checked out TNA programming at all like did you know I obviously you know Jeff Jarrett's involved but were you seeing the way the program looked on television or are you hearing anything from people in the business what was your perception of T&A at that point yeah I dropped in to see what it was all about you know I'd run into somebody and and it asked me about you know TNA or if I'd seen it or whatever so you know I checked it out a few times and you know it was you know it's a studio wrestling show no matter it's in the soundstage and and that vibe just isn't one that can get me excited about the product regardless of who's in a ring or how great the action or even the stories are when you're in that small studio environment it's just it's just really hard to get my attention put it that way so i had dropped in on it saw what it was and uh that was about

it you know i probably spent a total of 10 minutes you know watching t and a before i ended up having my first meeting with dixie carter i watched a little bit more prior to that meeting but in terms of my general viewing i maybe dropped in once or twice for a couple minutes and checked it out and see what it was all about let's talk a little bit about um the way this opportunity first comes to be. I mean, we had heard about Hulk Hogan and TNA for years. I mean, they had teased the whole thing with Jeff Jarrett in Japan and here comes the guitar shot. Oh, it comes Hulkster bloody. The Hulkster was just maybe creating a little leverage for Vince. He went and got some more paydays, roll tide. But now there's going to be another bite at the apple. Does Hulk reach out to you and say, hey, brother, they're calling me about T&A. I want you to take a look or walk us through how that whole conversation happens between you and Mr. Balea. Yeah. That's where it got interesting. Now, there was a lot going on at that time, not just with me and my business and Jason's, but with Hulk. We all know his backstory during this period of time. There was, you know, his son's accident. There was a divorce. There was a lot of drama going on. Oh, yeah. And that's when a lot of the surgeries started happening. Back surgery, neck surgery, knee surgery, hip surgery. It was all. all his back was really really bothering him at that point really bothering him it was to the

point where he couldn't get in and out of the car you know i felt horrible for him we'd we'd go somewhere go out to dinner or something and just watching him trying to get out of a vehicle was painful to watch more or less what he was going through and we had gotten very close during that period of time and i had tried to help hulk with things outside of wrestling just managing his personal business and it got to the point where he was in such tough shape and with all of the drama going on with regard to the divorce I was taking not taking over but I was essentially managing his business issues for him or with him he told me look you you speak for me if if you want to agree to a deal on my behalf you don't even have to ask

you know, keep me in a loop, but you speak for me where his exact word. So that was with regard to his trademarks and all of that. So at some point, I guess it was Jeff, probably Jeff. I don't know that for certain. I'm assuming it was Jeff. Reached out to Hulk and said that, you know, he and Dixie would love to have a meeting with him. And again, I don't know what Hulk said on that call.

I wasn't on it. but basically, you know, let them know that I was handling his business. And I was working with an attorney. It's not like I was writing contracts. I was working with two different attorneys and one of his accountants. But let them know that if Hulk was going to come on board, that in all likelihood, I'd be coming with him. And that's, I think the first meeting was on a jet.

I think they flew down to Florida. Perhaps they were already in Florida. and we're heading back to Nashville. Jumped on a jet, flew to Nashville and went to Dixie's home and had our first meeting. Talk me through your expectations going into that meeting. Did you think, hey, we're going to go kick the tires? I don't know that there's really anything here, but, you know, it means a lot to Hulk and he means a lot to me.

So I'm going to be there to support my friend, but realistically, I don't know about this. That's the vibe I think you would approach it with. I'm not saying that you're inherently negative. I know you're a positive guy. I know that that's the way your brain works. You're the damn the torpedoes dude. But at this point, seeing that, hey man,

my man's struggling to get out of a car. Why are we having a wrestling conversation? I can see you saying to yourself, I'm going to do this, but it feels like a waste of time. No. you know, that would be a fair assumption for the people that know me, but, and I'm struggling again because I've got to be careful what I say here. Some of this is just not my business to share. But because of the divorce, because of this giant unknown in terms of how that was going to

turn out, cash flow was kind of important to Hulk. Got it. I understand. And. I don't think he wants, you know, Hawk's a complicated dude sometimes. He loves, I mean, his identity in many respects, up until probably the last couple of years, it was kind of like Rick Flair.

You know, they just can't separate the character from the person. And they miss that person, they miss that character, they miss going out and performing in front of a live crowd. They miss the crowd support.

It's been their lives. It's their identity. So Hulk was struggling with that, but his physical condition was it going to allow him to get too involved. I'm not going to say he needed the money. He didn't need it, but it was a strategic advantage at that time. Yes. So I knew he would likely do something if the money was right.

And I wanted to at least be there to help him navigate that. Again, I was working with his attorney. I was out there freelancing and trying to write contracts or approve contracts. But in terms of managing it, I went into it with, okay, if he wants to do this, I want to do whatever I can do to make sure it's the best deal for him. And that he doesn't commit to things because that's another thing about Hulk is he'll get excited and have all the most honest, greatest intentions in the world,

but he'll commit to things that physically at that time, he just really wasn't capable of doing it. It's like he didn't want to admit that he could do certain things physically. just refused to admit it. So we'd agree to do things, and then it ends up being an issue down the road. So I was there basically just to help him score the deal. I wanted it.

If he wanted it, I was there to help him get the deal he needed or wanted. And that was about it. I had no intentions, zero intentions or interest. And again, it's not because I had a bad impression or perception. It wasn't that. It's just I didn't want to disrupt the life I had with the wrestling project that I knew was going to eat up. a lot of space inside my head regardless of whether or not i had whether or not i had to be there

physically i knew it was going to eat up a lot of space in my head and i just was trying to prevent that so let's talk about you know this experience we've all heard the famous stories from the 80s about how vince got pretty much everybody that he wanted from the territory system to commit he'd fly them first class to new york city and then a limousine would pick him up and take them into the office and they have a personal meeting with Vince and after he promises him the moon and you're going to make more money than ever and you're going to be a huge star. We've got you reservations at this five star restaurant and we've got you these great seats for a Broadway show and enjoy your trip to New York and boy, we're going to make a lot of money. And he did

this certainly for the husbands. He was trying to recruit, but he really did it for the wives. He's trying to make sure that, hey, we've got a full commitment back home because this traveling schedule is going to be brutal. We need mama bought in. I get it. We haven't heard a lot about the Dixie Carter way of recruiting because, well, by and large, a lot of folks who wound up in TNA had gone through the WWB system and we're now looking for a second act.

Or they were hoping that this could possibly get them to the WWE, this TNA opportunity. But this is different. This is the biggest star wrestling ever knew. And now Dixie Carter is trying to land the big fish. And as much as Hulk may have not needed the money, but sure would like to have it, boy, they needed Hulk Hogan. They probably felt like this is what is going to get us over the hump. And they felt that way because it was Hulk that got Vince over the hump.

It was Hulk that got WCW over the hump. It makes sense that maybe he'll do it for us too. talk to us a little bit about that recruiting process and that experience you said you know the jet's going to come get us now we're going to dixie's house pick up the story from there it was very casual and i want to make this really clear because as we go on throughout this episode however long it's going to take i'm sure i'm going to say things that some may interpret as me not appreciating dixie or having affection for her i do have have affection for Dixie. I like Dixie. She's a good human

being. She really, really honestly is. She's almost too good of a person to be in a wrestling business. And you know what I mean by that. That being said, and this will support it. You know, we got to, Dixie's real. She's not a phony person. She's a very genuine, warm, and pretty open. You know, she's not a game player in that respect she doesn't she's just she was open she was direct you know in terms of describing what she had hoped to achieve with Hulk she was so unpretentious now she's

I don't know where she lives now but she had like a really really beautiful home and her husband was there serge and he's a cool he's cool as shit I miss him. He was fun to be around. But aside from the, you know, the obvious, you know, money that was in the family and the way and where Dixie lived, she's so unpretentious and down to earth. And I think that's what made it easy for me because I enjoyed working with her and talking to her because like I said, she wasn't a, she wasn't playing any games. we literally got to her house. We sat down in what kind of room it was, I guess, a sitting area. Very nice, very beautiful home.

And Jeff was there. Jeff was driving a lot of the conversations in the very beginning. I think Dixie relied on Jeff because of Jeff's previous relationship with home. Jeff was there. Dixie was there. It was just us, four of us, and kind of talked through the vision that, Dixie had and what she hoped to achieve with Hulk and you know she wanted to achieve some of the same things that I did in WCW she wanted more sponsors she wanted to be able to

increase her licensing portfolio which was pretty much non-existent at the time in any meaningful way she wanted to shore up her relationship with a network there were a lot of things outside of what Hulk was doing could do in the ring that she was if she wanted Hulk to be kind of the face of the company with regard to, again, potential sponsorship meetings or meetings with the network or any of the big trade in the industry of us. She wanted that Hulk Hogan brand associated with the TNA brand. So when you're in the room, you said that, you know, Dixie's there, Jeff's there, obviously you and Hulk are there.

Is there anybody else there, do you think? No. And are you guys, do you think it's just Jeff and Dixie sort of painting a picture of what it might look like and what it might feel like? Are you getting down to the nitty gritty particulars about cash and creative? No, the first meeting was more, I always refer to them as temperature checks or chemistry checks. It's just, you know, you don't know for sure how you're going to feel. I don't. Be specific.

I don't know how I'm going to feel about somebody. until I've got a couple hours with them in a room away from a work environment. And that's, again, it's my process, you know, I'm pretty good at reading people. I'm generally am, I've been wrong, but generally am pretty good. And it's easier for me to read someone outside of their environment than it is in their environment. And we were in Dixie's house. That's her environment. She was in control.

We came to them. Okay, so there's that. And I was well aware of that. But again, she was so, I don't want to say charming because it's, I don't want it to sound like it was fake, it was real, but she's such a naturally charming person. My defense mechanism went down right away, because I'll usually walk into meetings like that, mentally prepared to, to think through a lot of the things that I'm hearing, right? I, she disarmed me immediately, and it was just a very casual meeting, but we didn't, it was kind of like high altitude, yeah, but maybe we could. could do this or what about this idea or Hulk would you feel comfortable in this environment again talking about sponsors and networks and things and then we left and that's

when the deal process started we didn't talk money we didn't talk dates nothing specific it was all very general kind of a macro view of what it could possibly look like that being Polko in TNA together you know you're a good judge of character and you can get a read on people and you sort of alluded to it there that sometimes your defense mechanism goes up and it's a feeling out process for you but right away you didn't get any concern from dixie like you didn't think this deal this deal's going to stink right no no on the contrary i felt really good my read on dixie was almost immediately a positive one like i said i dropped my defense mechanism. I wasn't analyzing. I was just listening and reacting as opposed to analyzing what I was

hearing. It was just a really good meeting. I immediately liked Dixie. Jeff, I had known. So there was no unknowns with Jeff. I was, you know, I had a pretty good idea what Jeff was all about. And I like Jeff, understood him. But Dixie was the unknown, but it didn't, that didn't last long. I felt pretty good about it right away. Before you go into a meeting like that, I know that for some people listening to this they're going to say this sounds silly but a lot of salespeople uh have to get in the right headspace before they're making a presentation because you have to be in that right frame of mind and if you are it makes all the difference in the world did you have sort of a a pregame ritual for meetings like this where you have to have an inner self talk or do you have certain things you

know you're going to do on game day so to speak like this to get ready for a meeting yeah i still do In fact, I've really spent more time mentally preparing myself for meetings or, or, you know, important conversations that are relative to business. I, and especially because I've got so many things going on inside of my head, even if they're just like little pet projects around the house or something, it's like this movie's constantly running 24 hours a day inside of my head. So sometimes I'll jump from one kind of area. Jason and I might have been working on a documentary, for example, or an idea for a documentary. And I'm negotiating this wrestling deal over here. And sometimes in my head I just bounce back and forth, you know,

and I don't do a very good job on either one of those tasks when I'm bouncing back and forth between them. And there may be three or four things going on sometimes in my head. But when it's important, when I know I need to focus, I mean, I give myself a half hour, the first 10 minutes, five, 10, eight minutes. I pray, just to be honest, you know, be transparent about it. I talk to God. And that's part of my process of getting my head right because a lot of what I've learned

over the years is that I need to focus on my intentions. You know, why am I even on this call? How do I want this call to end or to this meeting? What is it I want to walk away from this meeting, knowing, having, or feeling? And I check myself, is, is, am I doing this for the right reasons? Am I taking this meeting for the, I check my own intentions, not just the intentions of the people that I may be doing business, but I spend more time thinking about my own. Is this, am I doing this just for the money?

Because if I am, I'm out. I'm not doing anything ever again just for the money. I did that with WWE in 2019. I'm never going to do it again. So I do an inventory. And once I get through that process, then I just clear my mind. I literally, I guess it's called meditating. I don't think of it that way.

But I focus on my breathing. I focus on my posture. I focus on clearing my head and doing my best not to have. a conscious thought. I can't affect my subconscious yet. I'm working on it. But in terms of my conscious thought, the stuff that's going on up here in a frontal lobe, that I try to clear so that when I go into the meeting, I'm hearing things accurately, I'm reading the room properly, I'm not going in with, you know, prejudging a situation or a person or an opportunity, literally going in with kind of a blank slate, so to speak.

But it takes me about a half hour to get through that process. Now, my process back then was similar, but probably not as disciplined or focused as it is now. I've just gotten better at it and probably more than anything, understand how important it is for me just because of the way my fucked up mind works. So, yeah, I spent a lot of time doing that. Even in WWE, you know, I don't know what, nobody ever asked me about it. But before I'd go out in a segment, I would go up to guerrilla, I would stand in a

corner facing the wall out of the way, and I'd go through this, or similar process for 15 or 20 minutes before I would go out and do whatever I was doing on camera. Same thing in T&A. So yeah, I definitely have a process, and it's fun for me because I learn more about myself in the process of getting ready to do something. no i know what you do now but back then how did you deodorize your balls before a big meeting i aired them i aired them bad boys out every opportunity i could well listen i know some people just you know rub their sack around some soap and then and then some other people may spread some cologne down there let me introduce you to mando spray deodorant it won't irritate

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like that i think you're supposed to have fun with that you know absolutely yeah absolutely hey so you're in this meeting with dixie carter she's laying out the vision uh you got jeff jarritt there we haven't spoken about this jeff is a friend of ours uh but i just want to address the elephant in the room the last time jeffat and holkeogan were together in wcd it didn't end well the result was Hulk Hogan filed a lawsuit not because Jeff did anything wrong but he was there and he was Vince's Vince Russo rather's chosen one for lack of a better word and Hulk had played hard to get with Jeff with Jeff before so there have to be some underlying feelings on both sides where Hulk is like I'm not sure if I can trust this guy I remember what happened in WCW and I'm sure

Jeff conversely felt like I'm not sure if I can trust this guy we built this whole angle up and then he went back to work for Vince McMahon, there is some uneasiness there. And the calming voice in the room, as crazy as it sounds, Dixie Carter there had to disarm everybody a little bit and just cut through some of that weirdness and dynamic. Is that fair to say? Yeah, but I didn't sense any of that. No, I certainly, I can't speak for Jeff or get a read on what Jeff was feeling at the time because I wasn't around him except for in that meeting. and he certainly didn't show any concern about whether or not he could trust Hulk in that meeting. But I can tell you from Hulk's side of the thing, because we talked a lot at that time.

I mean, Hulk was well aware of the Rousseau-Jarratt connection in WCW. But I think, you know, when you've been around the business as long as Hulk has, when you've seen as many things as you've seen business-wise in the wrestling, industry as Hulk has seen and been through you're not surprised by much and i think hulk just looked at the russo jarritt thing in wcw is yeah that was then this is now let's move forward he didn't hold a grudge that's what i'm saying he wasn't not even a grudge he respected jeff because jeff had been in the business as long as he had you know jerry jarrott you know played a small role, but a role in Hulk's career.

And with Hulk, those things matter more in some respects than business issues that evolved down the road. Hulk can really look, you know, the whole WCW Vince Rousseau mess, the lawsuit that followed and all that, I just don't even think it was the thought. It wasn't a factor. It never came up in our conversations. he never suggested me okay we got to watch out for this jericho because you remember him and russo now keep in mind russo was there in tina that was a bigger issue and we'll get to that

i'm sure but not with jeff hulk couldn't express any reservations about jeff whatsoever with regard to rousseau let's uh let's put a button on the meeting you know when when you got start winding down the meeting and they're sort of laying out the vision i mean is there a handshake understanding that we're going to do business together or is it more hey we're going to wait and see what the offers look like and see if we can put together a deal how do we adjourn the meeting on a very positive note it it I mean we left there knowing that there was probably going to be an offer that Hulk would feel comfortable accepting it was almost like a foregone conclusion.

No, we, again, we weren't ready to sign out on the dotted line until we worked out. There was a lot of details to work out in terms of availability, his schedule, what he could, couldn't do in the ring and all that kind of stuff. There were a lot of terms that had to be dealt with. But we felt confident just based on the vibe and the energy in the room that it was unlikely that we weren't going to get an offer that we would probably be interested in. It was very positive. And that sounds clinical, the way I just described it.

We weren't high-fiving in the car on the way home, but kind of, sort of, you know, in a way. You had optimism. You were hopeful. Yeah. Yeah. Do you recall, was there a key word or phrase that Dixie was trying to hammer home about her vision that really turned Hulk's head? Like, oh, that's exciting. maybe it happened maybe it didn't happen but did she lay out what her goal for t and a was

was there something that you remember that really stands out like i remember this was important to dixie and boy she really hammered hulk with this no there really wasn't and i think you know looking back that's probably one of the reasons why tna ended up where tn a ended up is because there wasn't a clear vision i don't know I don't know if anybody ever had what I would consider a vision for the company. It was, there was a lot of desire to be in the wrestling business. There was a desire to make an income from the wrestling business. I don't want to speak for Dixie, but I got the impression it was more about

accomplishing something than it was financial. I don't think there was a, I want to build a $100 million a year company. Or I want to build a company that has not only weekly television, but I want to be doing at least 120 dates a year on tour. I want to create a licensing and merchandising mega machine. There was nothing other than we're excited about being in the wrestling business and making you a part of it, Hulk. No, to answer your question, there was never a specific goal or vision or target, even, other than general.

You know, we want to increase our sponsorships. We want to increase our licensing and merchandising, all that kind of stuff. But those things are obvious. But there was never, nobody ever said, here's the vision for TNA. We think we can do this within five years or three years. Here are our next steps. And we'd like to have you on board to do it. I don't, I don't think it existed internally or certainly in the conversation that we have.

I know I'm going to get in the weeds with this question, but from a sales perspective, because that's what this is. It's a sales meeting. They're trying to sell you on coming to work for Dixie Carter and TNA. They're trying to sell Dixie or trying to sell Eric and Hogan on coming and joining the team. So I can't help but ask sales related questions. you know, when you go back and you think about that meeting, I'm trying to figure out what the objections might be. And just to explain what I mean, because I realize not everybody listening to this is familiar

with that term, if you're making a presentation and someone says, yeah, but what about this? I would consider that an objection. Like, I hear what you're saying, but whatever comes after the comma is usually the objection. and I think in a sales process back and forth, the best time to come to address an objection isn't once it comes up. It's preemptively. I would rather just head on so they're more receptive.

So they start their mating, not like this with their arms folded. And if they are, then maybe by the end they're a little more receptive and we're having a conversation. And it does feel like preemptively, one of the things I would say if I were Dixie making this pitch is I would throw out a phrase. And I know that this gets associated with him a lot in a negative way. I'm not suggesting that was the way it was presented, but I do see why it would be a genuine concern of his.

Do you remember her saying anything about creative control or perhaps even using different words than that? But the gist being, we understand you need to manage your IP, that you've spent decades, your life's work, building this perception of the way the Hulk Hogan character and persona is presented, and we're asking you if you will lend us your credibility to help build our

company or certainly get it to the next level. So it does feel like there has to be some trust about the way that character would be handled. I think that is a very valid and genuine concern, but I realize the internet wrestling community gets all up in arms when you call that creative control because it's a buzzword. I'm not saying that from a negative perspective, but I am saying if I were Dixie, I would hit that head on. Because if I think that's a concern, I need to put him at ease there. What can you share with us, if anything, about creative control, even if we weren't using

that exact phrase? It certainly wasn't addressed in the first meeting. By the time we started exchanging drafts of agreements, our attorney, Hulk's attorney, made that very clear that Hulk would have creative control. So Dixie did not ever bring it up, at least not in the initial meeting. By the time she saw the legal term, creative control, as it was defined in the agreement, was in our probably response to their first draft. And honestly, it never came up again. I think she knew.

I think Jeff knew. Again, you've got to understand the context, the circumstances. Even though Hulk didn't carry a grudge and respected. Jeff, and I think generally like Jeff as a person, there was still that incident in WCW that involved Vince Russo, who, by the way, was writing for TNA. So when we let the world know, or in this case, Dixie and her attorney, that creative control was something that was non-negotiable, nobody attempted to negotiate it. So she didn't preemptively address it. Once we put it in an agreement, it never came up again. It's never discussed. Do you remember, and again,

we're getting super granular here, and I know I'm probably boring some of our listeners, but do you remember, was there ever a discussion about equity? Was there ever a discussion that, hey, if you can help us get to this point, then we'll cut you in. And before people laugh at that, I want to remind you, at this point, we're like less than 10 years removed from WWE going public. And that's when Vince McMahon was no longer a millionaire, and now he was a billionaire with a B. It's a big opportunity to think big like that. And certainly that's why everybody would have been thinking once upon a time is, hey, man, follow the leader. Here's what success in this industry looks like. And along the way, that meant if you're publicly traded, well, lots of people

own part of your company. Was the equity discussion ever even broached with you and Hulk about T&A? Never. Never. And again, this is going to sound negative, apologize in advance, but I'm giving you my read, my perception at the time, and I think probably turned out to be very accurate. Going back to vision, you know, what you were just suggesting, equity, perhaps going public, thinking about what's referred to in the business as an exit strategy,

what those options may look like. All of those are the types of conversations. and processes one would go through while developing the vision for your company. The vision is more than just, oh, I want to be the biggest wrestling company in the world. Okay, cool. How are you going to get there? That's the vision. Right.

So let's talk about how we get there. I don't think there was ever a vision for TNA to be anything other than a self-sustaining wrestling company that Dixie could run. at all. There was no, there was no, it never brought up. There was never any conversations afterwards about how do we really build this company. Now, let me take that back. I said it wrong.

Sure, Dixie and myself and Hulk and Jason Herbie, because I brought Jason into the deal. Jason and I were partners. And when I'm partners with somebody, I'm partners with somebody. And when it became clear that if Hulk was going. to come. I was coming with him and it was time to write my contract and I was the executive producer eventually in my second contract. I made it clear that if I'm going to invest my time in this, then Jason Hervey, who is my partner, will also be a part of this. That's just how we operate. Six months after we were all on board, a year after we were all on board and we're

having fun and things are going well we would go out typically dixie and i and jason sometimes all not all the time we would all go over to the palms bar at the hard rock hotel in orlando because that's where we stayed when we're there for production and you know we'd have a couple bottles and wine and you know decompress talk about what happened that night and maybe what's going happen next week. It was a very positive, fun vibe. And sure, in those situations, we talked about what if, you know, what if we did this? You think it's possible we could do this. And Dixie was generally always very positive and optimistic about those conversations, but it became very clear later on that it didn't really matter. She wasn't really running

the company. She was the face of the company. And she was active day to day. Don't get me wrong. I don't want to make it sound like she was sitting in her room, you know, like crosswood buzzels in her office. She was active, but the real decisions,

the financial decisions, those were not being made really by Dixie, not on a major level. So that became very clear and quite frustrating, honestly, because that's, I'm getting ahead of myself here, but after a couple years of,

creating opportunities, building certain things, to get just stiff-armed on any form of growth. At that point, I said, okay, this is not the place where I want to be. They're very content to have the television show on Spike, to not really tour, to not really do licensing. They pay lip service to it. They brought Hulk in to help accomplish it. but there was no real effort put into any of those things because there never was a vision for that company. Let's talk a little bit about, you know, when you end the first initial conversation at Dixie's house.

At that point, are you just getting the lawyers involved? How long is that process from the first initial meeting at Dixie's place to now we're putting pen to paper? I know I'm asking you to think back, you know, 15 years or so, but what was that period like? Is that a couple weeks, a couple days, a couple months? I think within 10 days, we had our first draft. There was, they put, you know, they're trying to remember their attorney's name. The first time is a guy. He's a super dude.

Really, really liked working with him, by the way. He's one of the, you know, very few. I've worked with a lot of different attorneys and some of them are dealmakers and some of them are deal breakers. he was a deal maker he worked really hard to try to make it work so he was he was very active very responsive immediately our attorney who happened to be jason hervey's brother he's an intellectual property attorney one of the largest firms in california um los angeles um he was handling the legal side of hulk's contract at that time so the process went really fast and smooth quite honestly it went very smooth

once you have the contract and you got pinned a paper you sort of said hey if i'm coming along then then my partner jason hervey has to come along and and when we've talked about you in sort of the dixie seat in wcd you started to say and i love this phrase he got jimmy hearted into the deal you would say that of course about jimmy hart coming with whole kogan alongside a whole host of others, including Earthquake and the nasty boys, et cetera, et cetera. Did you think that you and Jason Harvey were getting Jimmy Harted into the Hogan deal here? Oh, I know we were. Well, I know I was.

That was clear in my first meeting. The fact that I was on the freaking plane on my way to Nashville with Halt made that abundantly clear because they weren't in, Dixie wasn't interested in Eric Mischoff. And I don't think Jeff was either, to be honest. Right. And that's okay. I understand. I really do.

If I was in Jeff's shoes, I'm not sure I would want me around either. There was enough drama going on inside a T&A at the time that I didn't even know about. So, no, I knew. The only reason I'm sitting on that plane on my way to Nashville is because Hulk made it clear that he's not coming unless I do to watch over his stuff creatively.

Again, because Rousseau was there. So I was a, I knew it. And I accepted it. It was fine. There's nothing wrong with getting Jimmy hearted into a deal. Worked out good for Jimmy.

He's been working out good for Jimmy for the last 30 freaking years, for God's sake. Working out great. Is there any pushback that, that you know, I mean, do they just know going in? You know, this is, if you want, Hulk, this is the deal. Was there any pushback about you and, and Jason Hervey being a part of this opportunity? Zero. Zero. And I think part of that was because, number one, they just accepted it. It was like tax. It's like the whole tax. And we didn't know at the time that Dixie wasn't writing the check anyway. Right.

Iacom was, but we didn't know that. Had we known that, it had been a different deal, trust me. But, um, I'm sorry, I lost the question. What was it? Well, I just wanted to know if there was any pushback about you and Jason being Jimmy Harder down to the deal. No, I think it was like the creative control thing. It was just like, okay, that's what we're going to do. Here's how we do that.

Let's write the contract accordingly. There was no pushback. Now, maybe internally there was, you know, who knows? I don't think Dixie's mother liked. Dixie's mother was a little different. I never really, I met her once or twice. Janice. Janice, yeah.

She was, like, from what I've been told, because I was around the family once for a Christmas party right after we first started, like within months of when we started. That was one time I was around the family. The only other time, and it wasn't even the rest of the family, was a meeting that Bruce Pritchard and I had in Janice's office down in Dallas. about something. But I, you know, I heard all about Janice. And she was, I think Dixie's dad was kind of like, whatever my daughter wants, we're going to try to help her get it. You know, she, he was very supportive, very easy to get along with. Janice, on the other hand, was

much more of a challenge. I think she was a challenge for Dixie. And I've heard, I was never part of any of these conversations, but I heard directly from people who were, who I trust implicitly, that it's, it's borderline, it was borderline dysfunctional. And, and really tough on Dixie, really tough on Dixie. Her mom was tough. So there may have been some pushback on that side. You know, there was a guy there by the name of Dean. Oh, he was on head. Oh, what it? He didn't like Dean at all, huh? No, he's just a, he was just, he was a bizarre, you know, former, I think he was a fighter pilot

or co-pilot. It was in Vietnam, you know, and he wore that on his sleeve, which is, you know, he should. It's an amazing thing to have done. But he tried a little too hard to impress and intimidate, you know, talking about dropping. and napalm on villages and listening to the rolling stones cranked up in their headsets as they were doing it kind of stuff just it sticks out in my mind you know there was one point where i was sitting in his office and he pulled out a pistol it's like cleaning his pistol while he's talking to me it's like are you fucking kidding me you're trying to intimidate or impress me it's just weird shit like that he may have had guy Blake was her attorney's name super guy um he may have had pushbacker issues

but at the end of the day dixie wanted Hulk you know all's coming eric's coming oh by way so is this guy by the name of jason hurry now the easy part of that as far as pushback goes dixie love jason are still friends he still stay in touch she and jason is a very likable guy much more than I am for sure. But yeah, there was no perspective that we could see. I don't know what was going on internally. Jeff could probably answer that better than I could.

We got to talk about your role because we haven't discussed that. I mean, we've said, hey, you're getting Jimmy Harded into the deal. Did they clearly define, I mean, we know that here's the terms of the contract as far as the length of the contract and the compensation

but your role can you expand on that what were you supposed to do and what was jason supposed to do well jason was there really to work with me to land and jason worked on a lot of things they didn't have anything to do with hulk you know jason directed talent a lot jason was really good at directing talent because he was a talent at one point he understood how to talk to a talent and and get the best performance possible. You know, you can't coach somebody to do something and try to help somebody to do something if you've never done it yourself. You just can't.

Or you can try, but you won't be as good at it. Jason was really, really good at taking talent who had very little experience with a spoken word in, you know, doing promos and that type of thing. and he could get the absolute best out of them while also teaching them so that they can repeat the process again, just giving them techniques and helping them understand how to get that performance across without it feeling so phony. So Jason focused a lot on that type of thing where I was more involved, and specifically I was brought on, and I may have been even in my existing or my initial contract, I was there

to approve any of the creative that directly or indirectly affected Hulk Hocke. That was my initial role. It expanded in my second contract. And I think that's where I was the executive producer and had kind of an overall view of the show and had the input overall. Not necessarily had a creative. I wasn't that. That was still Rousseau. And when Rousseau took his ball and went home again, it was Bruce Pritchard, who was head of creative.

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and from the november 15th television show that happens here in 2009 there's a report in the observer and in the torch and even jason powell had it that this whole my way or the highway speech that dixie carter gives to the locker room that airs on television is sort of blurring the lines. She's done these quarterly sort of pep talks to the crew about every three months for quite a while. This time, the talent are told, well, we're going to record it,

and it actually is going to air on television. And so this is the first time we've seen one of these sort of pep talks like this. And, of course, you've never seen one of these prior to this. But this one doesn't wind up being a prep talk. it's my way or the highway if you don't like how things are going it's time for you to go work somewhere else and this in the newsletters is thought to be a shot where she's targeting talent like a j styles or christopher daniels or samoa jo or even frankie kizarian it's been said that christopher daniels and a j styles have been expressing their frustration with creative

and samoa jo is just friends with those guys so maybe he gets lumped in by association that's the suggestion by Jason Powell but he even notes that Frankie Kazarian at this point has already asked for a release other people feel like no she's not targeting the young talent she's talking to the older veterans

who don't take direction well there's a quote here there were so many times when older guys who've been told what they're supposed to do then go out there and go against it just to make themselves look better this feels like Dixie's trying to I don't know

get her arms around the problem but the approach of we're going to film it and air it what did you make of this trying to reflect back and determine if i had any influence on that or not i think i recall dixie letting me know that she was going to do it she may have asked my opinion just not clear on that one it's almost framed eric like she's doing this in advance of the negativity that she perceives might be coming that, oh, God, here comes Hulk Hogan. Now, I know that that seems silly because it's not like, I mean, almost everyone who was there at some point was influenced by Hulk Hogan in their career.

So it's not like they're anti the real life Terry Belaya, but the optics where guys had had their contracts trimmed here or there or they're going to be used fewer dates here or there. And, I mean, I guess said differently, no one's making more money than they've ever made before in their entire career in T&A. And we're still here and we're the underdog and we believe in the vision and rah, rah, rah. But after we're being told that, you know, the taping schedule is going to be changed and you're going to get fewer dates and we can't really afford to pay you that. And here comes Hulk Hogan. I could see how there would be a whole lot of guys who were like, hey, wait a minute, right? That's natural.

Yes. Self-preservation and greed kind of kicks in. It's part of the human experience. We all go through it. And again, I don't know what TNA was like before we got there. So it's hard for me to guess why she did it. I think it's natural to assume like you just did there that there were a lot of people that were they love the fact that this is a small little company and their homegrown talent and they're getting TV time. And there's probably a fair amount of flexibility. and the creative, because it was just a small. It was an independent wrestling company with a TV deal in that regard. It wasn't a mature, well-structured, well-oiled machine. It was what it was. It was a new company with not a lot of great leadership. There was a lot of drama going on backstage between Jeff and Dixie and Janice and all that. And now, you know, to bring in a guy like Hulk Hogan and to a much lesser extent, obviously me.

I'm sure the talent is going, well, wait a minute. I know the kind of money these guys make. What about me? So I can see that. Don't know if it was true, but it's it's common sense, I think. Easily could have been the situation. There's a lot of people who think that, hey, maybe Dixie's doing this because this is the first step in making her a television character. how would you respond to that?

No, no, I wouldn't buy into that. I think this, what I thought you were going to go with, this is this may be Dixie's opportunity to take her first step as a real leader. Okay. Because I think, TNA, my impression, again, could be off. It was such an informal environment, and now it was going to require structure. We're bringing in a guy like Hulk, oh, God, guess what?

We're going to be under a much different microscope. The expectations are going to be much different. Keep in mind, Viacom was writing the check, not TNA. Which means Viacom is going to want to have some more visibility into what's going on because they've got, you know, seven figures invested in this guy every year in addition to me and Jason. So I think this was probably Dixie's first real, okay, let's put on our big boy pants and be a legitimate company as opposed to this fun little thing we do called TNA. Not to be dismissive, but, you know, there was a lot of money invested, there was money

spent, there was a lot of hard work, a lot of hard effort, don't get me wrong, but it was a very informal type of environment. Whereas I think now, again, because of the commitment that Biocom was making and just the attention they're going to get from wrestling fans and everybody else, this was her first opportunity to position herself as a real leader. Let's talk a little bit about the content of the speech. Wade Keller broke it down on the torch, which, by the way, if you go to pw.torch.com slash VIP and use the promo code Conrad 24, you can get all the archives for a dollar.

Your first month is just a dollar. Use that promo code Conrad 2.4 over at the torch. He breaks down this speech from Dixie, where she says something along the lines of, since I was named president six years ago I've had a lot of people tell me how to run a wrestling company while I appreciate their contributions it's time for a change nobody likes drastic change nobody likes big moves I understand that and it affects different people in different ways but when you question things in this company you're questioning me and I cannot allow that to happen you have a choice to make you can choose to support me and the direction TNA is going

or you can choose not to but you'll need to find another place to to work. It's time for us to swing for the fences. It really is. No great success comes without great risk, and I'm great with that. I hope you are too. Now is our time. I look at the faces who have helped make this company, and you've made me very proud. This is a test. I'm asking all of you to step up in every way possible, and let's do this thing together. Now is our time. You need to believe it. If you don't believe it, you're hurting the person sitting next to you. You're hurting me, you're hurting the fans if you do believe it let's do it together and show everybody what we're all about listen i like the i like the idea of a rah-rah speech but the idea that we film this

and we air it i'm really struggling with because if sylva can throw that photo back up there of the group of talent these guys are supposed to we're supposed to believe as the viewers at home watching this, but that guy in the middle right there wearing the wife beater, that's supposed to be Magnus, but now he's just a guy wearing a shirt here and he's seated next to other guys that maybe once upon a time he's been in battles with. I don't want to see it like this. This takes me out of it. It kind of reminds me that, hey, this is all the play and these are the actors in the play. And now we're going to go out here and do a good show and I recognize that that's what it is and I would be foolish to try

to convince anybody that it was anything other than that but it just feels like if I'm sitting down to watch an episode of The Sopranos I don't really want to see James Gandalfini walking around out of character on the show if I clicked on some sort of a DVD extra thing I know what I'm getting but if I'm just watching the show I'm watching the show is like an escape I want to be in love with that Tony Soprano character. I'll learn about James Gandalfini another time. What do you think of the decision to air this? I know you're big on blurring the lines.

Can you get behind that? It feels weird. It was very awkward. And I could have gotten behind it if that scene, if that shot, that scene was staged and produced for television and had an intention. What do you hope to get out of it? it. Why? It always comes back to why. Why are you doing it? Why are you saying it? Why are you thinking it? Why are you feeling it? If you can just boil everything down to a why and you can explain it, you're three-quarters of the way to being successful with whatever it is you're trying to do. In this particular case, because of the narrative, because of the content of what Dixie said, either my way or the highway.

With the shot that they put up there, a closer shot, you're looking at the faces of all the talent. They're basically getting chastised in front of a national television audience. And some of them may have deserved it to be chastised. Not with an audience. But a lot of them didn't. But they're all sitting there getting yelled at by the teacher. And the audience at home has no idea why Dixie is done.

doing this. There's no why there for them. They're just looking at talent sitting there, superheroes. These larger than life characters, presumably, you want them to be that in the eyes of the audience. You're building these guys' characters. You're making them special, or at least attempting to. And now they're sitting there in their t-shirts and their everyday attire getting yelled at for something that the audience doesn't really understand. Not yell that chastised for something that the audience doesn't they don't know why this is weird i think it could have been done differently and it could have been very effective once you figure out why are we doing this why are we doing this for the audience i get why we're doing it internally but you don't have to

have cameras there so if we're not going to do it internally we're doing it for the viewing pleasure of our audience what do we hope to get out of this and how do we get it i don't think any thought was given to that. I don't know how I, the viewer, am supposed to receive it. Respectfully, why do I give a shit if T&A's business gets to the next level? Why do I care about T&A's financial success? That's one of the things that's weird about the tribalism today, all this debate, like, I don't know what a P&L for the Sopranos look like. Never cared. Either it's entertaining and it's good and I want to watch another one or I don't. And that's the end of it. But this raw, off speech. Hey, guys, let's make the company

better. Can I interject here what I think? Yeah. Not what I know, but what I think. You'll hear me talk about, you've heard me say this before. Dixie wanted, it's my impression, Dixie

wanted so badly to be viewed on the same level as Vince McMahon or an Eric Bischoff in the 90s. or even a Paul Heyman, she wanted that recognition and validation so badly that I think consciously or subconsciously, she knew with Hulk coming in,

it could easily be perceived to be Hulk's company. She could lose her spot just by the magnitude of the talent she was bringing in in Hulk. This was her opportunity to let the world know that she's the boss. Had nothing to do with what was best for the television show. It had nothing to do with how this message was going to be received by a good portion of the talent that didn't need to hear this speech, but got thrown in to help make Dixie look like a boss. That's why that happened. Dixie wanted to be perceived, much like Tony Kong.

Tony Con wants to be validated, wants to be held in the same type of, I don't want to say respect, obviously, with regard to Vince, because that's all upside down now. But Tony Con wants to be viewed as a Vince McMahon or a Paul Heyman or even possibly, probably not so much anymore because of things I've said and done. But, you know, Eric Bischoff and WCW Nitro in the mid-90s, he still makes reference to the fact. here and there that you know we're wcw 1996 he wants that so badly that he for that i'll go back to dixie she wanted that so badly that she actually sacrificed her talent in a way to establish the fact that she's the boss and she's bringing in whole cogan that's why i think she did way killer suggested here's perhaps what the speech should have sounded like from dixie carter Wade says this maybe would have worked a little better.

Thanks everyone for your contributions and hard work and bringing T&A to the level it has achieved by adding Hulk Hogan to our team in a role yet to be determined your profile and the profile of this company will be raised. I'm personally excited for more fans than ever to witness the best brand of pro wrestling out there. All I ask of you is to continue to try to be the best wrestlers you can be. If you try to win your matches,

I'll do my best to create an environment where the best wrestlers get rewarded and that cheating and unsportsman-like conduct is not tolerated. Those who are the best at what they do will be rewarded with title matches and will continue to seek out the best wrestlers in the world and if you lose too many matches,

you'll be out and replaced with someone who wins because we want our fans to know that they're going to be rewarded with seeing the best wrestlers in the world competing on the best stage anywhere. So Wade's suggesting we do it in K Fabe. We talk about it like, you know, it's not, that's the type of speech that Dana White would give as, as the leader of the UFC.

It wouldn't say, guys, you got to work together and let's have more entertaining matches. And if you're not on board, hit the bricks, pal, like the whole thing is a little weird, especially with the understanding that when Hogan comes in, it's sort of going to be positioned like Hogan versus Dixie, but Dixie's supposed to be the baby face in that. but how is she the baby face if she's perceived as talking down to the talent the whole thing's a real head scratcher with the benefit of hindsight to me eric yeah you know and wade's version of of that speech actually could have worked really well in part not because it was that well written although it was um but that would be more dixie the the speech that we saw that is so antithetical to who dixie carter really is and the way she talks in the way she interacts with people, that it wasn't real, it wasn't genuine, which made it harder. When I said, when this show started, she is generally a really good human being and a nice person. I meant that.

And the speech that she gave in the beginning, her, I want to be the boss speech, I'll refer to it as, was not a reflection of who she is or how she had been conducting herself with talent up until that point. So it was such an abrupt change that it made it even harder, I think, for the talent to accept and digest. It was very weird. It was weird.

And I think, you know, Wade's approach would have worked because it was more, that's what Dixie would have said in real life as opposed to the highway or the highway. That's not Dixie. And that's, you know, people hear, you hear the word authenticity and being authentic and being true to your. yourself and those are all really cool words and generally people know knows what that means or know what it means. But when you're not authentic, particularly in a case like this, particularly when you're on television, it's so obvious to people that it makes whatever it is you're trying to sell that much harder to buy. Let's talk a little bit about how that speech may have came together. There's been a narrative out there, and it was talked about in the newsletters all

the time, that Vince Rousseau was a big advocate behind the scenes for making Dixie an on-screen character. And she was always, allegedly, reluctant to do so. I can't help but wonder, do you think this is just Rousseau going back to what he knows? You know, the thing that made WWE successful and sort of stop the 83 weeks run that WCW was on was Mr. McMahon versus Stone Cold. So there was, you know, a power dynamic there at play. And then we saw him try something in the same vein a little bit in WCW with the New Blood versus the Millionaire's Club.

And it does feel like that's maybe what he's trying to set up here. And you said, hey, what she's saying in the speech there, what she actually said is antithetical to who she really is. we don't know I wasn't there you weren't there you think maybe Vince Russo wrote this speech I Conrad I had never considered that until just now listening to you I would bet a lot that that's exactly because and it's and I'm focusing on it's either my way or the highway yes that's not her that is so not Dixie Carper's Carter, and until you get to know Dixie a little bit, you can't understand just how much that is not Dixie Carter.

And now that you brought it to my consciousness, fuck yeah, that was Vince Russo, because that's Vince Russo's voice. That's how Vince Russo wishes he could be. He's actually kind of a, he's not a very strong person mentally or emotionally. He's very, very weak. He gets intimidated easily. He gets emotional very easily. He cracks under pressure very, very easily. He wishes he could be a Vince McMahon back when he was working for Vince

or Eric Bischoff or anybody else who has the balls to confront people or situations and not be afraid to be aggressive about it. Vince wishes he could be that. but he's not so he does the next best thing he puts those words in other people's mouths and you hit it right on the head man that was a vince rousseau speech now you suggested in there that deep down inside rousseau was trying to you know get dixie to be a character i've never really bought into that a whole lot but now it's so funny doing these shows how things just kind of fall into place because of a different perspective like yours but it kind of all makes sense

especially the way you framed it. Yeah, that was Vince Rousseau talking. This idea was probably a Vince Rousseau idea. Definitely the dialogue was a Vince Rousseau because it's not Dixie. I mean, it's just so not Dixie. And it is so much Vince Rousseau. That's exactly what happened, which is why it didn't work. He didn't write for her voice.

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And Blue Chew wants to help you have the confidence to perform at your best. So discover your options at bluechew.com. We've got a special deal for our listeners. Try Blue Chew free when you use our promo code 83 weeks at checkout. Just pay the five. dollar shipping. That's bluechew.com. The promo code is 83 weeks to receive your first month free. Visit bluechew.com for more details and important safety information. And we thank Bluechew for sponsoring the day's podcast. So Eric, one of the next big things that happens on

camera is we see an interaction with Dixie Carter and Sting. And when Sting comes, there's a big pop. He's going to be a big part of the program here. Flares. here, Hogan's here, and of course we've got to throw a Sting into the mix. But what's interesting about the way they're positioning Sting with regard to Dixie is that Singh has turned twice in his career. Back in WCW, it lasted for a hiccup, didn't work. And then a year prior to this, he was supposed to be a heel, and he turned down all the ideas that would have made him get a lot of booze.

So he became a baby face and a heel faction, the main event. mafia and now we're going to try it again here and dixie confronts him backstage as you saw there and steen grabs her and shoves her up against the wall and says that and screams he owes her nothing and she refers to sting as steve which means now we're shooting brother with the vince rousseau fingerprints are all over this aren't they yes sting turning heels never going to work it's never worked it's never going to work like thankfully i don't think we have to worry about that now but i guess russo's kind of sort of getting his wish here he's trying some things and dixie's on tv he thought she'd be a great television

character what'd you think i mean almost immediately you're seeing creative like this that had to make you think what year is it is this 2000 is this wcw what's going down Yeah, this was, and again, in the very beginning, I wasn't focused on any of the other creative other than Hulks. So if there was another talent in the show, let's say it was Christopher Daniels and Frankie Kizarian in a tag team storyline with somebody else. And if they were referencing Hulk Hogan, I'd want to see that narrative and approve it. Because we, look, the issue with Rousseau is he went into business for himself, despite his, protestations to the up to the otherwise he went into business for himself and that was our concern with russo and we made sure i made sure that if hulk's name was used in a narrative on the show

that we at least knew the context and what it was about otherwise you get people making romances and challenging hulk and interviews and we're not even a part of that discussion or or aware of what's going on so that was my role. I'm going to look over. I'm going to work with Vince Rousseau, who's going to lay out his ideas for what he wants to do with Hulk. I'm going to get involved in that process, either approve it or modify it or shit can it or anything in between. Anything else that was going on a show, I didn't pay any attention to it. I mean, I was aware of it. Don't get me wrong, but it was not my job. That was Rousseau's job. I didn't want that job. I didn't want to be in charge of creator for the whole show. I didn't want to, it wasn't my interest at all. In fact,

I was quite clear that that was not going to be my job, even contractually. So a lot of the stuff that was going on like you just said, eh, you know, I was aware of it, but again, not my responsibility. But to your point, again, right on the money, you can just smell Vince Rousseau's creative. You can walk into a room. If there is a format sitting on a table, when you walk into that room, you're going to smell Vince Rousse's name all over that format. I'm saying it's always bad, but there's a certain style, there's a tone, there's just a lot that is really easy to identify as a Vince Rousseau project or Vince Rousseau script or an idea. And this was one of them. again using you know real name why well again why would you do that because you're you're trying

to appeal to guys like dame mouser or the people that read them well i don't even know that you're trying to appeal there eric i think it's we're trying to position it like what's the old johnny valentine i can't make them believe that wrestling's real but i can damn sure make believe i can make them believe i'm real and so it feels like okay Now, we know that this is just a wrestling show, but right there, now, that's real. And I, maybe, maybe. I get the selective use of that, but, I mean, let's see the picture of him confronting Dixie again. That's real.

This guy's walking around dressed up in his vigilante outfit, and now we're shooting, bro. Like, if he's in flip-flops and a backwards baseball cap, now it's real. But this dude, he ain't checking the mail dress like this. This ain't Steve. like the whole thing is silly and by the way this is the payoff for a crazy match

that feels like a fever dream AJ Styles was teaming with Rick Flair to take on Hulk Hogan and Abyss on television I don't know how in the world that ever even like

this is the worst use of AJ Styles and Abyss ever right they're not going to get over and I mean I understand the old school where you're going to to use the more established talent.

But look at AJ doing a dime store, Rick Flair robe right there. The whole thing is just, oh, man, it's a miss for me with the benefit of hindsight. What did you think about it at the time, though, Eric? I didn't hate it, but I was not excited about it. Yeah. Part of, part of the reason that happened, Hulk absolutely. fell in love with abyss as a person and rightfully so there is not many people you'll meet in the wrestling business that is as genuine and honest and just as could have a person as

Chris he is a real sweetheart of a human being on every level and Hulk has always liked big men you know he just because again what worked for Hulk But what he knew, you know, the success that he had created was always around big guys. And Abyss was that big guy in TNA. And then you combine that with just the genuine affection that Hulk had for Chris. Hulk wanted to do, I mean, he, you know, he gave his Hall fame ring. I mean, he, he, he, he, Hulk Hogan turned himself inside out to try to help. get abyss over and that was a big part of why this was happening hulk believed and you

and i went along with by the way i'm not pinning that i'm not fading the heat to hulk but hulk really believed that for a j to go from a j salle's you know homegrown you know wrestler from georgia to becoming a major star that he had to become a bigger character not a better wrestler, but a bigger character. And you can argue that having him be little Natch was not necessarily the best idea. But I think Hulk was right. His instinct was correct that in order for AJ to become what AJ had the potential, even back then, of becoming that he had to step out of the I'm the homegrown Georgia boy

and become a bigger star. And this was an attempt to do it. So on the surface, yes, it's weird. looking it's fever tree mish as you put put it but there was a thought process behind it that was mostly correct it was not executed probably the way it should have been but the intention the idea was it was a good one we got to talk about something that you and i've not spend any time talking about and i know you've been traveling so you may not have even had a chance to check and see what all's in the format for our show today because truth be told we have a little

research team that puts together a lot of research in order to help us pull these shows together and we're going to be talking about somebody who i know i don't i shouldn't say i know i don't believe you're a huge fan of i'm talking about the real life todd clem we know him as bub of the love sponge and he gets himself fired by dixie carter and it's because he did a radio interview where he ambushed a wrestler who performed under the name Awesome Kong on his radio show in Tampa. Bubba the Lovespuns used to have a huge syndicated network of radio stations and then eventually he made the leap to Sirius XM

and now he's back in terrestrial radio and in this era he was doing some stuff with T&A. I guess he too had been Jimmy hearted into the deal. Is that fair to say? Yeah, it was a little different situation because Bubba did bring he brought a massive radio footprint to the table. He wasn't just there because he was a buddy of Hawks.

That was a part of it. No question. But there was a massive amount of added value for a young company struggling to get attention. He was known for doing stunts and he's going to do a stunt here with Awesome Kong, I guess, and I don't know all the particulars.

They had some sort of a run-in at television. and now he's going to air it out on the radio. And that is a page right out of his and Howard Stern's book. They want to be authentic. They want to talk about what's really going on in their life on the radio, warts and all. And this just gets ugly where they have her, and I don't even know that she knows this is happening,

discussing how much money she's making and where she's moving and all this stuff. And then Bubba jumps in on the interview and starts calling her names. lots of unpleasant names we're not going to repeat them all but he even uses one where it's like wow I don't think you should be doing that Dixie felt the same way and two days later

she's fired not she's fired he's fired above the love sponge gets his walking papers two days after this outburst where he is challenging awesome Kong to a fight and he's saying that he's going to put up $5,000 and he's going to give the money to Haiti

who just had a huge natural disaster that was clearly something they had discussed in real life she's frustrated hangs up the phone it was a gotcha deal i'm sure bubba thought this will make for great radio and if you were a fan of that program it probably did but he clearly went about this the wrong way and i'm sure you're sort of in the middle of this you weren't in the studio it's not like you're even listening to the program you don't live in Tampa, but when you hear about this, I'm sure you've got to do some cleanup somewhere with relationships and hurt feelings because this is Hulk's buddy. Talk to me about this whole Bubba the Love Sponge, Awesome Kong situation.

Yeah, honestly, I didn't get in the middle of it. It was Hulk's, yeah, the relationship obviously was with Hulk and Bubba. And Hulk did Bubba show. In fact, I used to cringe. I'd be in L.A. I'd be, you know, on business, in between meetings and I'm listening. Sometimes I had to pull over on the side of the road because I don't think all good mind if I say this. I think he's pretty much admitted to a lot of this.

He was drinking really heavy, really heavy. Again, this was during that time when he was undergoing the back surgeries, the issue with his son, the divorce, all of this. I'm not making excuses. It just was real. Yeah. He was medicated, you know, by his doctors, you know, legitimate prescriptions for shit that would kill a horse or two. And he would top it off with a court of Tidos in the morning on the way to the studio. Bubba's.

So there were oftentimes when I'd pull over the side of the road and I'd pull over the side of the road. I'm hearing. And Bubba's feeding it, of course. This is great radio for Bubba. Hulk didn't really, Hulk wasn't himself. His judgment was definitely impaired between the pharmaceuticals and the alcohol and just the stress and the drama and the pain and all the rest of it. He was not thinking clearly at all. He was not himself. And he was saying and doing things on the radio that I just knew a year or two before that, he would never, ever say or do. But it was like Bubba's radio show was his voice. It was a way for him to lash out.

It was a way for him to respond to people, including his ex-wife, who was just running her mouth at every opportunity and doing whatever she could to embarrass and humiliate him. And Bubba provided a platform for Hulk to respond. And he did. on a regular basis, and it hurt him. It hurt his reputation. I think it hurt the perception of people had of him.

And again, if that was really who he was, yeah, it's what you get. But he was not. Bubba was taking advantage of him, in my opinion, exploiting him by being his friend or convincing him that Bubba was his best buddy, and then allowing him to go on the radio for Bubba's benefit and say things and embarrass himself in ways that he should have,

Bubba, if he was really a friend, would have never, ever, ever let him do. I couldn't do anything about it. I try to talk a couple times, but, you know, brother, you know, this was his opportunity to vent. And he, and it, and Bubba had a huge footprint. He was right up there with Howard Stern for a while. He was bought a Harvard Stern's network.

So I just kind of stepped back and let whatever happened happen. I wasn't emotionally involved in it. I wasn't technically involved in it. It wasn't part of my job to manage Bubba the Love Sponge or what he did or said. It was a horrible situation. Didn't it end up? Didn't she beat his ass? Well, that's what started it.

there was a physical confrontation and then she attacks he attacks her on the radio like this and it got ugly because he embarrass the hell out of them yes i think she'd have kicked his ass quite honestly if they would let it go well that's the reason they got to this whole hey let's have a fight i'll come to your place right now and she's even giving her address over the radio and as the producer is saying oh well just go down there and take care of it then y'all go fight think about the absurdity of that a man and a woman fighting or just adult humans fight what are we doing uh but then as if that's not enough he doubles down on some of the oh he shouldn't say that where he goes oh i don't want to go to the hood so then he gets fired two days later

dixie sends him an email saying that they have a zero tolerance policy for racial insensitivity and he's shown the door and he goes on a rant and calls dixie a marked bitch on the radio and says that he's made sure that he's thoroughly buried Awesome Kong to Johnny Ace, and there's no way WW will take her. And he even shares some uncomfortable details that Terry Taylor had told him in confidence about some issues Awesome Kong had been having mentally or emotionally. He's airing all of this out and saying the TNA product is beneath me anyway, and it's not like this is going to hurt any of your sponsors

because nobody wants to advertise with such a horrible product. nobody's even going to notice you know i was doing you a favor that is the the attitude in all of this and just knowing that you're supposed to be the holk hogan whisperer for whatever reason however we want to call that and knowing this is his friend this puts hulk in a bad spot here too and i don't think bubba even considered that when he was doing any of this do you absolutely not but was bubba's only concern was bubba that's why he was putting what you know like I said, convinced Hulk that he was, you know, one of his best friends and then just allowing him to go on his radio show and say things and do things that were put Hulk in

a bad light, but he didn't care, he let him do it. He encouraged him to do it. He fired him up. He stirred the pot. He made sure he got a great show out of it, regardless of how it affected anybody else. You know, once by the time when Bubba was on satellite radio, I mean, I didn't listen all the time. I've always been a Howard Stern guy. But there were segments that I enjoyed on Bubba's radio show. I've never met him. I don't know him at all. But this is a bad look.

Do you have, I know that there's a lot of people who just don't like anything about Bubba Love Sponge. And I understand that. I mean, that's part of the character he's played. It's probably well earned. Was there ever a time where you and Bubba were friendly? I mean, I understand the ultimate falling out with him and Hulk and where you landed on that whole deal.

But at any point, were you friendly? with Bubba the Love Sponge before things got sideways? Friendly, yes, friends know. Meaning because he was tight with Hulk, because Hulk spent a lot of time with him, I'd go down to Tampa and I was with Hulk for three or four days, whatever it was. Inevitably, there was a trip at least once or twice

down to the radio station or the studio where Bubba worked and had his business. And yeah, I was around it. And Bubba had some talented guys working with him that I found to be fun. entertaining to be around. So I was friendly with him, but I would never, I never associated with him outside of his studio. I never, we didn't have a phone relationship. We didn't text each other back and forth. It was simply, you know, he's a friend of a friend. So, you know,

a friend of a friend, I guess is a friend of mine, so to speak. Let's talk a little bit about Paul Heyman, because later in 2010, we'll call it the summer of 2010, is when there's lots of rumors out there that Dixie Carter is trying to land Paul Heyman to book the company and she even pushes something out there like you'll never guess who I just met with well that was Paul Heyman and it said internally T&A felt like a deal was imminent and Jeff Jared even starts hinting around about a new identity and there's going to be a new person you know coming in this is of course when they're going to do yet another ECW reunion show we know that ultimately Paul Heyman does not make the jump

and I've been under the impression in seeing interviews from Paul Heyman since that one of the things he was adamant about is he didn't want to just be the booker he needed to be able to control the roster think about it from a football standpoint he wanted to be able to be the general manager and the head coach he wants to have the type of control he had in ECW where he can decide not just what the characters are doing but what characters he has and I've heard that one of the things he was big on

if he would have gotten control with T&A is he wanted to get rid of everyone who was north of 40 he wanted to go into a youth movement he wanted younger guys and if you recall the way ECW was originally successful they had one veteran if you will and Terry Funk, and the rest of the talent were younger guys that were sort of quote unquote homegrown.

Do you remember these Paul Heyman discussions and were you involved in any of those conversations with Dixie Carter, good, bad or indifferent about Hayman and T&A? I was not involved in any of the conversations. I was aware the conversations were taking place, much like I was when Dixie tried to bring in Jim Ross. I'm the one that actually gave Dixie Jim Ross's phone number so she could give him a call. So I was aware, but I was not involved at all. Do you think, what do you think of that idea that if, if Haman were to come in? We know he didn't, but if we could fantasy book, what if, would that have been interesting

or exciting for you as a wrestling fan to see what Paul Haman could have done with all the talent that was in TNA at the time? Yeah, of course. I mean, look, I was friends with Paul. Paul, I've known Paul since 1987. So we kind of go back a ways. I first met Paul when he was working with Varngania, the AWA.

He was a promoter working. Paul was working with a guy by the name of Rob Russon at the time. And basically trying to sell AWA to state fairs and county fairs and independent promoters and things like that. That was Paul's role. So I didn't interface much with Paul. He was in one world. I was in another world in the AWA syndication.

But I certainly got to know him a little bit. And then obviously worked together in WWE, where we actually became pretty good friends. And I knew Paul had a lot of ability. I found him to be fascinating from a creative perspective. And I was certainly excited about the idea, of another voice coming in? No, I was unaware until after the fact that he wanted to fire everybody over 40,

which contractually would have made it a little difficult because there were a lot of guys in that one, not a lot, but there were some very, very high paid guys in that category, including Hulk Hogan, which, by the way, Viacom wanted to keep on. So, you know, Paul's idea would have probably met with some resistance had he tried to execute it. But I didn't find out about any of that until after the fact. But I was, I was excited about it.

You know, Paul and I have always, you know, we, we've always talked about, wow, wouldn't it be, I mean, when I went to WWE in 2019, I don't think anybody was more excited about me being there than Paul. We had, we were really looking forward to the opportunity when I indeed had Smackdown and he indeed had Raw. And we could collaboratively work together. That never occurred because Paul never really had Raw and I never really had Smackdown. Vince McMahon was just overseeing both and it was all his show and his idea. But we talked a lot about how exciting it would be to put our hands together because I think we complimented each other. Did I have the same level of desire to work with Paul back in 2010 as I did in 2019? Probably not, but still enough respect for Paul that I was looking forward to working together.

My contract was solid. I had like three years of my deal. So I wasn't like insecure in any way. More looking forward to it. It is one of those great what ifs. What if Paul Heyman had come in to TNA in 2010. One of those what ifs we don't have to worry about is Hanson. If you were born after 1970,

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H-E-N-S-H-A-V-N-G dot com slash bischoff and use the code Bischoff. Let's get back to it. We're going to talk a little bit about what's next here in the Dixie. Carter Saga, and it is this ECW angle. We're doing yet another reunion show for ECW. In 05, we had hardcore homecoming, and then we had the one-night stand. In 06, we're going to do our second one-night stand and then launch our own ECW promotion under the WWB banner. And four years after that one fizzled, TNA wants to do it again.

this perhaps is the worst possible ECW reunion I was excited about it in 05 I went to hardcore homecoming in one nightstand I was considerably less excited about an in 06 and I had no interest

in this one in 2010 I don't think a lot of people did is this the straw that broke the camel's back do you think with ECW reunion shows this TNA hardcore justice version it should have If it didn't, it should have. Yeah, it was bad.

It was bad. I don't know who actually booked it. I think it was former ECW that actually booked the whole thing. It wasn't even Russo. Can't even blame this on Russo or me. It was. Bulley and Tommy. Huh?

Bullie and Tommy. Some combination thereof. Yeah. Yeah, it wasn't good. And part of it was, it's T and A. You're in, that's another thing, and I keep going back to it, and people probably are tired of hearing it, but in a soundstage environment, the authenticity we're talking about, the energy, even the crowd that's there, these are not ECW type fans. These are people that are spending a fortune buying a ticket to get to the park and go to the back to the future ride. This is not a hardcore audience. Just everything about it was wrong on the surface.

I understand why they did it. Emotionally, all those guys are still to this day. You know, bully and I joke about it. I don't talk to too many other people that were a part of ECW. But I do talk to bully quite a bit. We're very close, very good friends. And there's a certain feeling that these guys had about ECW that's never going to go away. It was an important part of their lives and their careers.

And it was an important moment in time in the wrestling business. But that moment in time had long since passed and to try to put that square peg, which what the ECW style was, into the incredibly round hole that T&A was and Viacom was at the time, it was just a bad idea to start with. Well, what is an interesting note in all of this, is while all this ECW stuff is going on,

it's in the newsletters that you and Hulk Hogan are not even at TV. So you're not burning dates. There's also a report that Hulk's going to need to get yet another back operation. And now they're saying, this might actually be the end. He's not going to wrestle again.

And allegedly, there had been matches with Abyss at Bound for Glory in October and then later in the year with Sting. do you remember those being on the books and then just not coming to fruition because of Hulkster's back operation? Yep. Yep.

And that was, and the Hulk wanted to do those. I mean, I don't think he was contractually required, contractually, contractually required to do anything in the ring. I mean, Russell.

But it's what he wanted to do, especially with Abyss and Sting. But yeah, there was no way it was going to happen. it's kind of crazy to think too because you know we do get that abyss and hulk hogan against a j styles and rick flair match in uh in march of 2010 and then we get bound for glory with sting and holke hogan in 2011 i don't think enough people talk about this

hulk hogan's last two matches that he ever wrestled We're on non-televised house shows, live events for T&A in 2012. There were six-man tags with Hulk Hogan, teaming with James Storm and Sting to take on Bobby Rood, Bully Ray, and Kurt Angle. In Manchester, England, they saw the very last Hulk Hogan match. That just feels weird to say, doesn't it? Not on TV. It does, but I'm glad it turned out that way.

Really? I'm glad it was. because that because it wasn't televised you could just go out there and have fun i'm not just talking about hulk i mean everybody could go out there and perform for the crowd and not the cameras and that changes things and i'm sure hulk had a great time i'm sure he was in a ton of pain obviously but i'm also confident that he had the best time he could possibly have it was a hot crowd it wasn't a massive crowd but it was a very very high crowd and they appreciated it. It was it was a fun night in many respects. I'm glad I'm glad it

wasn't on television because it wouldn't have been as much fun had it been on TV. I know you said he wanted to do it. He you don't think he was contractually obligated talking about the Hulk Hogan abyss match and the Hulk Hogan sting match. We do get that Hulk Hogan sting match Bound for Glory October 16th, 2011. That's really the only big one. He had that tag match on TV we talked about and then this one uh with sting in a perfect world do you think Hulk Hogan would have really liked to have done that abyss match i mean i could hear the love in your voice of just you know the way the real life terry belaya felt about the real life chris park do you think he thought hey i can help this guy get over and we just never got

there absolutely yeah absolutely he really believed in abyss i mean if he could have adopted a meet would have. Let's talk a little bit about the next big meeting that we're going to have here in 2010. It's when Dixie gets all the talent together and they're having a discussion, of course. Everybody wants to know what's going on with Paul Heyman. And she's trying to keep everybody at bay here. And she says they need to tighten up their in ring work and that they're all becoming spoiled. because the shows were taped.

I find that interesting. Like, isn't that the advantage for it being taped? Like, I understand that you're working without a net when you're on live television. But did you feel like talent were phoning it in at times in T&A because it was taped? Is that a fair criticism? Because it feels like it's really random by Dixie. And it's the opposite of my impression and experience. You know, T&A talent worked their asses off.

Some of them were better than others, of course, because some had more experience than others. Or natural talent, AJ Stiles, Frankie Cazarian, Chris Daniels, to name a few. Very, very, very talented guys physically. But there were a lot of talents there that while they might not have been as talented, because, again, experience and repetitions, there's nobody that didn't work their asses off. I never, I was never under the impression that anybody phoned anything in there. Let's, uh, let's talk a little bit about, you know, the, the ends announced the day to day life for you and, and Dixie Carter. You know, I, I know that you spent some time in Orlando at the TV

tapings. Did you spend much time at all in Nashville? Yeah. In the very beginning, of course, I would fly in. I think. I think. they were doing I don't think I flew in every week maybe every other week I can't really remember but I was in a booking meeting with with a team starting day one again because of you know overseeing Hulk Hogan stuff so I would come into Nashville uh usually on Sunday nights and be there Monday and Tuesday and go home Wednesday but yeah I spent a lot of time no I didn't really hang out with I just spend any time with Dixie when I was in Nashville, which typically I was in the office and doing, like I said, with the creative

team, go back to my hotel, do it again the next day, jump on a plane and go home. So I didn't, I did the only time I really saw Dixie was at TV. I didn't really see her at all in Nashville. You know, when you're working in, in concert with Dixie, like are there any good memories, like when you think back on a business initiative, a creative idea, producing a segment, can you just speak to some of the things you may have worked with Dixie on and tell us what that was like, you guys working together as collaborators, if you will? I just, I enjoy Dixie because for all the reasons I talked about the beginning of this episode.

She's a very authentic, genuine, very, very nice human being who I think her intentions are all honorable and good. I think she was in over her head trying to be something that she didn't have any experience in or instinct for Tony Kahn. There's a lot of similarities there. It doesn't make them bad people or not smart people. It's just, it's like me trying to become a concert, you know, flutist. It's just not going to ever happen.

But when I did work with Dixie, particularly as it related to, you know, there was a couple things Viacom wanted to see what's referred to as a show Bible. Now, in any other form of television, episodic television, a show Bible is like, okay, you got to have pencils in your drawer and you got to have pens in your drawer. It's a tool of the trade. And wrestling, what's a show Bible? You know, because wrestling typically is fly by the seat of your pants from a creative point of view as opposed to episodic TV where you really have to plan eight weeks in advance or 13 weeks. You have to have the full series fleshed out before you go into production. That's normally how television is produced. In wrestling, it's week to week to

week, and the network is very rarely, if ever involved, that started to change with Viacom. And they wanted to see a show Bible, which meant that we had to sit down and figure out 13 weeks of television over the course of about a week or 10 days. And we would literally go off-site. And I think the last time we went, we went to some, it was a horrible place, but we went to some place in the Pocono Mountains. It was an old lodge. And, you know, it was probably really cool back in the 50s,

but it was old and run down in the middle of nowhere and whatever. But we would huddle up in a room, big media. room and we would just have our talent on a big white board names of all the talent we start ranking them we're you know segmenting them based on are they a story talent are they B story talent C story talent where are they on the storytelling food chain as characters so speak and then we would just start with a blank piece of paper what are we going to do for the next 13 weeks. And by the time we were done, we literally had a Bible that we can hand over to the network that would feed, that would show you exactly where all of our A talent, how they're going to

play out over the course of 13 weeks, highlights of, you know, the matches, the story behind the matches, why we're doing what we're doing. All that was laid out for almost the entire active roster. That was a big undertaking. Nobody in teen eight ever done it before. Vince Russo had never heard of the idea before because he's never worked in television outside of working for Vince and WCW. So it was kind of overwhelming for a lot of people. Jason and I loved it because that's what we love to do. And Dixie was a part of that. She was she was nervous about it because it was an unknown and she didn't know how I was going to go. But she was very supportive of it. And once she saw it, I think she got very, very comfortable with that

process. So I loved that process and loved bringing Dixie into it because it showed her a different way of approaching the business, the wrestling business, aside from what she had been doing with Rousseau. And what everybody else is doing, including, you know, Tony, Khan, it's probably the same way they're producing television today and it didn't work for dixie and it's not working for tony but this was a solution to that problem i'd love to get i think kevin sullivan the producer at the late great kids of kevin i still think he has a he sent me a text saying he had a copy of one i'd love to go back and look at that and see it because it would be it would also be a great tool for anybody that's producing wrestling to look at to just get an idea of perhaps how you should produce

television. Not that it wouldn't change, you know, because you plan 13 weeks of television, you turn it into the network, they sign off on it. Two days later, somebody, you know, blows out a knee or is thrown in jail or decides to become a monk or whatever. Life happens. Shit happens. Contracts happen or don't happen. So there's always going to be changes, but it's nice to have a starting point. It's a lot easier to adjust on the fly if you've got a plan in place already and you're just modifying the plan. as opposed to rewriting television from the ground up. That was a fun process.

A lot of the conversations that we had, I know it sounds, you know, all you did was, you know, drink, wine and hang out with Dixie. That's not the case. But there were those times after a show when you're fired up, your adrenalineist, you know, coming out your ears and you know you had a great show, you're not ready to go back, watch the news, and fall asleep. You're fired up.

And there was just so many great conversations that we had. Some of it, creative, some of it directly related to business. The rest of it, just talking about our kids and things that we like to do. Those are really fun times that I had with Dixie and Jason and Halk to a degree. He wasn't often there, but yeah, there were a lot of good times of Dixie that I remember. I remember meeting her and her husband's surge down in Tampa. They were down there at the same time. Lori and I were down there.

We just all went out and had a drink or two on the beach. Didn't talk at all about wrestling. So there's a lot of good memories with regard to Dixie. I will tell you that, you know, my ability to bring my son in and have them start out as a referee, Jackson James, nobody even half the three quarters of the people that were on the location in the roster didn't even know Garrett was my son. We kept it that quiet. Sting knew, obviously Hulk do, Jason knew, but the rest of the roster, they didn't know Garrett. They never met him before.

So when I brought him in as a referee, we named him Jackson James, like Garrett and I wouldn't socialize together and catering. I would ignore him. If he walked by me, if we crossed paths, walking to and from the set, I'd just pretend you didn't exist it. So we kept that up for a long time. That was fun. Dixie helped make that happen. She allowed that to happen. And me getting a chance to work with my son.

It's one of the most rewarding things I've ever. ever done in my career creatively. Dixie allowed that to happen. She could have said no. She didn't. So I'm always be grateful for those opportunities. Just because I'm honest about some of the shortcomings or things that I saw as shortcomings doesn't mean that I don't like Dixie.

It didn't like Tixie. I do. She's a wonderful human being that provided me a really meaningful opportunity to work with my son that I'll never forget and neither will Garrett. Yeah. so there you go it's not going to be all bad on today's show and i like that you're able to look back and uh and think about the happier times and i think about the happier times whenever i pour a big bowl of cereal on the weekends plop down and watch some wrestling just like i did when i was a kid

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for bringing these bars into the world. Goodness gracious, that double chocolate, go get on it. You'll be glad you did. Hey, let's talk about the end of hardcore justice. We talked about this being the ECW reunion that maybe wasn't as well received, but the fans that night loved it.

They're chanting, thank you. They chant an F.U. Vince. I can't believe that's a thing, but it happens. We see Dixie sort of smiling at that. Bubba comes and gets her from ringside, puts her in the ring. The whole fans, all the fans are chanting. The whole crowd is chanting. Thank you, Dixie and T and A.

And then the day after, when now it's time to do television tapings, we see her absolutely dressed down Rick Flair in the ring. He doesn't take too kindly to that. she goes after him and her real life husband makes the save now i'm not trying to pile on dixie but i am saying once upon a time we've heard the stories that rousseau was pushing for her to be a tv character and she's saying oh no i don't want to do that now in this year we're seeing her dress down talent in a pre-taped thing we're seeing her being lifted up by the boys and thank you dixie and now rick flair's going to come at her so her husband makes the save are we getting lost

in the sauce, as we like to say here in the south a little bit here? I like that saying. I'm going to steal that and introduce it to Wyoming. There you go. Yeah, real bad. I think Dixie's reluctance would be natural. She wasn't, she didn't have a lot of confidence. She'd never done it before.

It was all new to her. She didn't want to look bad. She was, she was self-aware. But once, and I worked. with Dixie. I know Jason worked really hard with Dixie and closely with Dixie to get her comfortable. Dixie had the ability to be good on camera, but boy, did it take a long time. Like, you'd have to have hours with her to get her. As I said earlier, Jason was really good at just working with talent, getting them comfortable with the process of how to get out a promo

or an in ring without it sounding like you're reading it off. back of a cereal box. Dixie had the ability, but it took forever to get her comfortable. That was the big issue. But once she started seeing herself on camera and doing a good job because she could, that's when the beast,

that's when the beast started to become an issue because she started to love it and wanted to do more of it. anybody would let's um let's talk a little bit about something that happened in early 2011 tna wrestling.com would make a post on their website asking fans to interact with dixie on social media oh god at t and a dixie or facebook.com slash t and a dixie and as soon as i bring that up you go oh god i got to hear why you had such a visual reaction to that i've said so many times that there's a lot of parallels between Dixie and Tony Kahn.

Yeah. And this is one of them. Dix, it would drive me fucking crazy. And I liked her. Still do. But at the time, I really liked Dixie. But she's sit at Corrilla. Well, because that's what Vince does.

Much like Tony. She's sit at Gorilla. And the whole time the show's going on, she's not watching anything on a monodagh. her and care about nothing not listening to the crowd she's reading tweets and sending them for two hours she'd sit in gorilla people walk by her after the match and hi and she's she's on her twitter she was obsessed with social media dixie's idea of what worked it didn't work all from social media. She was listening to wrestling fans on social media

and taking that guidance as to what she felt was good or not good or what we should do more of, much like, you know, Tony Kahn, cage match rankings. Same thing. She took that as a focus group And it was such a pain in the ass

And you could not convince her Not to do it I tried making fun of her You know I tried to do it in a lighthearted way But it probably came off a little Course It's like what the fuck are we doing here

You know let the fucking internet book our shows But that's essentially what started to happen Yeah She was obsessed with social media. Obsessed with it. Let's do some questions that she got. She would get questions like this. Is T&A going to get

a new world belt so they won't all have to wear the Jeff Hardy belt? Dixie would say, are you kidding? Yes, the sooner the better. Another would say, do you plan on moving the impact zone to somewhere else? I believe keeping it universal is crippling the audience. Dixie says there's

no plans to move the production to another single facility. However, we are excited about taking impact on the road to Fayetteville, North Carolina on February 24th and hope to do more impact tapings from different locations in the future. Let's talk about that for a minute. What was your discussion like with Dixie about putting the show back on the road? Was she an advocate or was she against it? Both. I think she understood it. She understood why. But she was the financial pressure from her mom. Quite frankly, made it impossible. That's the part that made me lose my shit when it came to TNA.

If I have a bad taste in my mouth, then it's only partial because there's a lot of other things that I look back on fondly, as I just said a few moments ago. But the lack of commitment and vision to grow the business drove me berserk. And there was just, and nobody cared. Nobody cared. I mean, look, T&A at the, there was a moment in time when you had Viacom who was not only paying for Hulk and for Eric and for Jason and for Kurt Angle and for a number of other big name talents. That was Viacom. That wasn't T&A money. That wasn't Dixie Carter's money. That wasn't even Janice, Janice Carter's money.

That was Viacom's money. And Viacom, Viacom spent, God, God. I don't know how much it was. I don't want to overstate it and end up being wrong, but a massive amount of money to come up with a rebranding effort for impact. Networks don't do that. They don't spend time in their money promoting your show.

That's your job as a producer. Now, the network will promote the show on their network, but not to the extent that Viacom was. they were really invested in the show and there was a point in time when they could have and I believe wholeheartedly in fact I'm going to be talking to Scott Fishman

who was with Viacom at the time he reached out to me the other day he saw the Mr. McMahon stuff on Netflix and he reached out and wants to get together Scott Fishman worked directly with Kevin Kay at Viacom Fishman was our network liaison Scott was totally invested

in what we're doing and wanted to do more. T&A didn't want to do anything. Janice, didn't want to invest any money. We want our money back. They had invested X amount of dollars. Jeff, Jared would know this better than I.

I wasn't involved in any of it. But they had invested a bunch of money to set Dixie up, you know, get whatever, screw she out of there, whatever they had to do. There was like, I heard at one point it was like $30 million. It was their initial investment. All they cared about was getting that $30 million. back for their panda energy investors because that's where it came from, right?

They just wanted to get that paid back and they wanted a TNA to sustain itself. They didn't care what happened to it after that. There was no vision for it. There was no desire to watch it become something big. There was no exit strategy involved. This is just like, let's buy this for our daughter Dixie so she can be the first female president of a major wrestling company. And she can have fun doing that because she's not working. working with us over here, Panda Energy.

So let's let her do that. And once she's got that off and running, then we're done. We're out. Had there been somebody financially behind TNA that wanted to see it grow with a partner like Viacom at that moment in time, TNA would be killing it today because they had the talent. There were enough for the right people in place to grow the business, both in the ring and behind the scenes, Kevin Sullivan was a great producer,

David Sahati, who worked for for WWE, was the director at TNA, is now working with MLW, I believe. Not the best director in the history of the wrestling business, but not far behind. He was great, great guy to work with. There was enough pieces together where TNA could have been a major wrestling promotion.

Were it not for the idea of, we don't want anything to do with it. We don't want a, partner. We don't want, I pitched the idea of going to Viacom and selling them part of the company, letting them become an equity partner because then they'd be invested, more invested than they already were, to help grow the business. You think that I was going in there and, you know, discussing, pitching the idea of burning puppies. It's like, oh, no, we're never going to do that. What do you mean you're never going to do that? The reason they didn't want to do it is because

they didn't want anybody in their books. They didn't want to have to answer to anybody. They didn't want to have to explain anything to anybody. That's it. It's the only reason. That kind of shit drove me crazy. Still does. If you get me on that, if I spend more than another 30 seconds talking about it, I'll get fucking hot for the rest of the day. We got a few more questions here that Dixie got that I want to share her answers with you. She's asked about the best moment in T and She said signing the spike deal was huge. The Kurt Angle Thursday night spike announcement. The Hulk Hogan Press Conference in NYC, the Wembley Arena.

She had a lot of positive ones. She's asked, what was your biggest mistake so far running TNA? I know the list is long, but narrow it down to one. Wow, what phrasing. Dixie says, the move to Monday nights. We have a loyal audience on Thursdays, and that move proved that. even the ratings of the Thursday replay were as high or higher than the debut telecast. Did you guys battle head to head on that decision about Monday or Thursday?

Do you recall those conversations? No, everybody was on board. Spike was on board. Dixie was on board. I was up. Look, we had to make a noise. We had to create awareness because T&A was the tree that fell in the forest, relatively speaking, in context with the rest of what was going.

on a television at the time. TNA was a tree that fell in a forest every Thursday night. Nobody heard it. Very few did. So we had to change that. Why bring in a guy like Hulk Hogan if you're going to keep it a fucking secret? How do you make the biggest noise you possibly can? Pick a fight with an 800 pound gorilla and see what happens.

That's exactly what that was. And it worked. So in terms of you know, the discussions leading up to it, Kevin Kay, the president of Viacom, president of Spike, absolutely on board. Scott Fishman, on board. Dixie, excited as hell. I can't speak to the rest of Panda Energy, who are the real, you know, the real decision makers in that company, because I never, I just never communicated with them, but everybody was on board. Now, obviously, you know, it didn't work out the way everybody had hoped it was going to work out, but it succeeded

in its goal and creating awareness and letting the world know that Hall Cogan was now in T&A. Hey, let's talk a little. And Rick Flair and others. Yeah, a lot of others. We got a live studio audience here with us from ad free shows.com. And Aaron Sheen wants to know, do you think they tried to position Dixie as the Stephanie McMahon for TNA?

No. They wanted to position her as Vince McMahon. Yeah. That's what Dixie wanted. that was her primary driver was to be recognized as the first female president of a highly successful professional wrestling company. She wanted to be in the same conversation as Vince McMahon or Paul Heyman or Eric Bischoff. Much like Tony Kahn.

There's a lot of similarities there. Eric Bryant has a question here. He says, this is a question to Dixie that she answered on social back. in the day. Can you tell me how you felt when you saw Booker T and Kevin Nash at the Royal Rumble and realized your original plans for they were screwed. They was a T&A angle. And Dixie says Booker was not available for any MEM angle. Kevin Nash was under contract with T&A and was just recently released for reasons I will not disclose. From the beginning, if we did a main event

mafia angle, it would not have been with the original group and it would have been a short term story to get to something else to see they tune in tonight on spike i'm pretty sure the fans will be happy i know i am the narrative here is dixie just decided to help our old friend kevin nash out and let him out of his contract to do the rumble is that the way you heard that i don't recall hearing much about that to be honest lots of rumor and innuendo i'm sure you could it could look dixie was not it wasn't tough to do business with she she she didn't have jail food mentality like and I shouldn't say that because that's that makes it sound a bit like Tony con has recently

been accused of you know hold who is it the uh Phoenix somebody that wants to go to WWV Ray Phoenix yeah I can tell you the whole story on that but but look Tony made a commitment there's a contract in place. I understand. I'm sticking up for Tony in this case. You have to draw a line. You have to manage your talent. You have to manage your contracts.

And just because somebody wants to go somewhere doesn't mean that you should let them go. Because then you'll be doing it for everybody else that wants out of their contracts early. So whatever he's doing, I support it when it comes to protecting your assets because that's what talent contracts are. they are nothing more or less than assets to a business obviously there's people involved in those assets but it's an asset you have to manage it it's part of being in business but dixie had a big heart and it wouldn't surprise me if she let him go to do what he wanted to do i just find all of that interesting or fascinating or all the above uh let let's do talk a little bit about Dixie and her Twitter activity.

She's doing all this in February. In March of 2011, she gets suspended from Twitter. I guess in that era you had to be verified in order to get the blue checkmark. She just added one to her profile. And I guess the folks didn't like that and said, nope, you got to go. Of course, the company makes the decision to move back to Thursdays. And the, uh, there's a. out here, and this is from pro wrestling.net, our pal Jason Powell, who says, the wrestlers

were told that T&A, as well as Eric Bischoff and Jason Hervey's production team, conducted the bulk of the market research, and were told that fans overwhelmingly wanted Thursday to be established as the T&A wrestling night. It seems like a convenient excuse given that the rating showed that TNA was being crushed by W.W.E. on Monday nights. If it is an excuse, I guess you can't blame T&A and Spike TV for the spin. If their concern was keeping the locker room morale steady, does she view, you know, the Monday night experiment as a, was she frustrated, I guess, by that experiment?

Disappointed, I think is a better word. By the way, we didn't do any. Eric Bischoff and Jason Hervey's production company didn't do research. I don't know where that came from, Jason. Jason Powell's usually right on the money. Well, hang on, hang on. He's not saying you did. he's saying TNA is telling people

that you did. Oh, well, then. And he's saying, they were lying through their teeth. They were lying through their teeth. He does a whole satire thing, Eric, that I'll send to you, which is hilarious where he says, Dear Mrs. Carter, please find below the summary report from our market research that you ordered from us, blah, blah, blah.

And here's an example. Current former and potential pro wrestling fans prefer to watch TNA wrestling on Thursday nights rather than Monday nights. please note we actually didn't have to do any research on this topic so you won't be charged we simply looked at the nielsen media research ratings for the last ten weeks and saw how terribly you were getting spanked by the competition and he continues through all these bullet points that are just obvious like duh you don't need research to know you need to move it back but i get why you know we don't want to just say we got our ass kicked we're retreating three days later we got to frame it a different way for the public i get that um You know, let's just put a button on this whole thing. I mean, we should. There's lots of back and forth about gotchas and specific things with, with Dixie.

But we know that in the end, you know, she is not given any credit for the careers and opportunities that she created for a whole host of people. And it's almost like L.O.L. Dixie. And it's been that way in the Internet wrestling community for a while. but but I'm going to stand on business as the kids say I don't know that we would have Samoa Joe and AJ Stiles and Christopher Daniels and so many other great talent I mean guys like Consequences Creed who we know now has just torn it up for the last 10 years or more with New Day

like there's so many great talent that went through there and it created or provided an opportunity for those guys who for whatever reason we're not getting any attention from WWE to still continue to work at a high level and perform their craft and hone their craft and get better and take care of their family. They didn't have to just. They'd pay their bills.

That's what I'm getting to because normally guys, you know, hey, I got a wife, I got kids, I got to go get a job. I can't just play grab ass here. There's got to be a future in this. And Dixie allowed that at her family's financial expense year after year after year. I just don't think that the wrestling business is where it is right now without Dixie Carter.

And I don't think enough people are saying that, Eric. I think that's a little broad, Conrad. I think the business would be exactly where the business is without Dixie Carter and T&A. I think the individuals that you referenced may not be a part of it because of exactly what you said. It's one thing to learn your craft and get better at your craft and go out there every night and practice and get yourself on TV and grow. your own personal brand, but you've got to be able to pay your bills in a process or you're going to be working in a warehouse or as a stock broker or whatever, a real estate agent. Dixie did provide those people an opportunity to stick with their dream and to get better

and grow with it. I don't think in terms of its impact on the industry in general, I can't ascribe a lot of credit to TNA for that, but I can certainly not. what they did for individuals. Again, there's a lot of similarity there with Tony in AEW. I don't think AEW is necessarily good or bad for the business. It's certainly a great thing for the people that are getting a check every two weeks. But at the end of the day, will AEW have any lasting impact other than the emotional impact

of some diehard Kool-A-drinking AEW fans? I don't think so. Business is still, if AEW disappear tomorrow, WW is going to continue to do what WWE's been doing for 30 or 40 years. Yeah, I didn't mean to say that it affected the company, but there's more to the wrestling business than one individual company. It is the sum of the parts. And you've got guys like Okada and guys like the Young Bucks and AJ Styles and Samoa Joe

and Desmond Wolf, who we know is Nigel McGuinness and so many others who had an opportunity and just having that opportunity that that that other company out there just raises the stakes of the entire industry and makes everybody better and i don't know i'm hoping that with enough time people take another look at dixie carter and yes she did have some missteps and we'll talk about some of those another time but next week we're going to be talking about something that you and i have managed to not do together ever we're going to watch back the first nitro that Vince Russo and Ed Ferrar ever produced and we're doing it on the 25th anniversary

of the show. So stay tuned for that next week here on 83 weeks. In the meantime, if you just can't get enough Eric, how about letting Eric save you some cash at save witheric.com? Come on now. If you haven't already, what are you waiting for? Go get yourself a quick quote from EasyE himself. That's right. Eric Bischoff is licensed to help you save money on your mortgage. Specifically, if you can hear my voice and you've got credit card debt, what are you

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Eric, today was a fun episode, man. I like talking about the cruiser waits last week. I like talking about Dixie Carter this week. But I'm looking forward to watching an old nitro from Vince Rousseau next week. That'll be a blast. And I've enjoyed the last two shows have been really fun. I love the pacing of it and getting into the detail and some of the stories. So I appreciate you and Dave Silva for making it happen.

It's still after all these years, you know, Conrad, you may not remember this. But when you and I first started talking about doing a pot, podcast together. We kind of half-fast knew each other from a relatively interesting experience in your basement with a couple cases of beer. But I was a little tentative and I think you were too. And I think our agreement was, let's just do it. And as long as we're having fun, we'll keep doing it. And when we stop having fun, we'll stop doing it. I've had more fun over the last couple of weeks than I've had ever doing this stuff. So thank you guys for making it fun. We're having fun. And we're glad you are too there's going to be more eric bischoff before you know it at 83 weeks.com if you

haven't already go hit the subscribe button turn on the notifications bell that's your home for all things eric bischoff that's 83 weeks.com you're going to absolutely love it and i can't wait next week to watch the good the bad the ugly of the first ever vince russo nitro right here on 83 weeks with eric bischoff hey hey it's conrad thompson here to tell you a little more about what ad-freeshows.com is all about. Get early, ad-free access to more than a dozen of your favorite wrestling podcasts every single

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