83 Weeks with Eric Bischoff - Episode 380: The Legacy Of Chris Kanyon

Episode Date: June 27, 2025

On this episode of 83 Weeks, Eric and Conrad explore the life, career and legacy on Chris Kanyon. Erci shares stories of his time working with Kanyon, his rollercoaster story archs on television, and his impact on not only the lockeroom but the company as a whole. All that plus, Eric chimes in on all the news and notes of this week in the world of professional wrestling. FACTOR - Eat smart with Factor. Get started at FACTORMEALS.com/83weeks50off  and use code 83weeks50off to get 50% off your first box plus free shipping. RIDGE - Upgrade your wallet today! Get 10% Off @Ridge with code 83WEEKS at https://www.Ridge.com/83WEEKS ! #Ridgepod TUSHY - Over 2 Million Butts Love TUSHY. Get 10% off Tushy with code 83WEEKS at hellotushy.com/83WEEKS #tushypod TRUE CLASSIC - Upgrade your wardrobe and save on @trueclassic at https://trueclassic.com/83WEEK S ! #trueclassicpod BLUECHEW - Visit https://bluechew.com  and try your first month of BlueChew FREE when you use promo code 83WEEKS -- just pay $5 shipping. SAVE WITH ERIC - Stop throwing money away by paying those high interest rates on your credit card. Roll them into one low monthly payment and on top of that, skip your next two house payments. Go to https://www.savewitheric.com  to learn more.

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at Conrad at save with Conrad. Give us a call at 8884250105 or get yourself a quick quote, even talk to a live person right now at save with Conrad.com. NMLS number 2129, Equal Housing lender. Let's take a summer vacation from house payments at save with Conrad.com. nowhere I'm good man it's a beautiful day making progress knocking some shit down having a blast doing it couldn't be better well we are excited to be here with you we greatly appreciate everyone tuning in and hanging out with us we are indeed a lot here on 83 weeks dot com if you haven't already be sure to hit that subscribe button turn on your notifications bell our topic today is canyon we are going to be talking about news and notes

about what's happening in wrestling right now in 2025. We're going to save that for the end. I guess we should just start at the beginning, Eric. But when do you remember Canyon first being on your radar? Was he a guy that you saw a lot at the power plant? Or what was your first impression of Canyon? As best as I can recall, because it was a minute ago, I'm pretty sure somehow, some way,

Diamond Dells Page was involved. There was a period in time when I was really looking for, you know, obviously with the whole Blood Runs Cold gimmick, I was looking for unique performers, guys that really did things that we didn't normally see in the ring. And keep in mind, this is before, you know, Lucha became a really hot thing. pretty sure he came through GDP I do want to ask I understand before he became a full-time

wrestler Chris was working as a like a traveling physical therapist and I know that had to be a pretty lucrative deal especially if you're an independent pro wrestler but I do want to ask you know the opportunity to to have this sort of dual hat scenario where you've got a full-time job and you're pursuing wrestling, that's not something that everybody was afforded the opportunity to do back then, but it feels like he was able to make that work better than most. I knew these days it's not uncommon, but, you know, once upon a time, if you were trying to cut your teeth in the wrestling business back on the territory days, you kind of, in order to be taken seriously, you had to be full time, which

oftentimes more often than not, unfortunately. meant starving in a territory here or there. But by this point, when Canyon's coming up, it is becoming more normal for guys to have a quote unquote shoot gig and still wrestle independence. Do you think that transition was all just born as a result of Vince consolidating the company or consolidating wrestling into one national brand? Or why do you think there was such a change with what was normal in wrestling?

But I think, you know, if you look back, and I'm not an expert on this because I really didn't pay much attention to the independency until really about 10 years ago is when I first started noticing it, maybe 15. And the more I was exposed to it by making appearances and things like that. I talked a lot about that in my last book, Guy Evans, called Grateful. There was a moment where, you know, the independence scene had been such throughout my entire career. It's been such a, yeah, I know it exists, but yeah, whatever kind of thing. But really over the last 10 years of exposure, do I appreciate what independent wrestling is today? What it's become continues to become because it's really, it's evolving, it's changing. People at the top will probably shift positions, you know, quite a few times over the next several years.

But overall, it's growing, particularly in Europe, at least it was growing. pretty quickly in the UK in particular. But that wasn't the case back in the 90s. At least not to the same degree. Was there independent wrestling? Of course there was. But not at all like there is today

because of what you just pointed out. You know, the only real wrestling that existed was WWE primarily in the 90s and then distant number two being WCW. Beyond that, it was really very few places, limited places to learn the craft or develop the craft before you took a shot

at either WCW. So I don't know the extent that Chris was involved on the indie scene, but certainly I can see why he would have pursued that. He was such a unique individual in terms of his idea of performing. He was really great at selling. And, you know, we often, especially today, right, we talk so much about some of the incredible athleticism that we see, you know, whether it's Osprey or, you know, anybody want to name in WWE or in Lucha, you know, it's those big dynamic moves that people, you know, go into their this is awesome chance over, which is great. It's a fun part of what we see today, but what made Chris so special is he could,

not only be very innovative and he was a big guy he was not like a cruiserweight right he probably i'm guessing solid legit 225 maybe 230 six plus six foot plus maybe six one six two so it's not like he was you know five foot eight 175 pounds it could fly all over the ring but yet the way he sold and even a lot of his offense was so unique not necessarily high flying but really unique. His offense was fantastic because it was different, but selling is what made him valuable. He could really sell. What's interesting is his beginning. So I think he was originally trained. Of course, we're talking about Canyon by Bobby Bold Eagle in New York. But he does get further training under the fabulous Mula when he finds himself both living and

working in Columbia, South Carolina, this is unique because I think most everyone listening to this is going to be familiar that Fabulous Mula trained who's who of women's professional wrestlers through the years, but it's rare that we hear a male associated with that name. Did you know this Mula fun fact about Canyon? No, it's the first I heard it. That's why I like doing this show, man. I learned some shit. It's awesome. Hey, we were talking a little bit about his success in real life as a traveling physical therapist and i guess there was advice that was given to him early on eric and and we've talked at times about what an interesting subculture pro wrestling can be at times but the advice he's given by those in wcd the elder statesman are

hey i don't know that i would advertise the fact that you're doing really well financially in your real job you might get heat brother i know that that's silly, but that is the way sometimes, you know, wrestlers look at things as is this guy really committed or is that, that sort of thing. Do you remember they're being pushed back? I mean, whenever we talked to Bruce about Todd Pettengill, for instance, he was a hugely successful radio DJ in the New York market. So he would drive a different luxury vehicle to TV and wear a different gold luxury watch TV. And I guess other wrestlers and announcers were sort of looking side-eyed, like his success intimidated or bothered them.

I know that's never been an issue for you, but do you think that was a real concern for Canyon that he may have enjoyed success outside of wrestling and that got him heat in wrestling? Maybe. I mean, it's hard for me to even think that way. It's hard. I can't relate to any of it. But that doesn't mean I don't recognize that that way of. thinking exists. And it's insecurity, you know, and I think it's true in life, right? I'm not

impressed at all by how much money someone has. That doesn't really tell me anything about their character. It tells me they're good at making money, and that is, you know, something that I can admire depending on how they make their money. But I, beyond just acknowledging it and being admiration of someone's success, it doesn't really tell you much about their character. It doesn't, just because someone's got a lot of money or is doing better than you are or I am, doesn't mean I'm going to enjoy hanging out with it. So that, but that's me. Other, but in a professional wrestling, especially in a locker room, a roster, performers,

talent, whether they're actors and actresses, their wrestlers, they're on Broadway, Disney on ice skaters, whatever. If you're a performer, you are, you're in a subjective business. It's somebody else's opinion as to how good you are or aren't, right? Sometimes that's manageable or you can track it, engage it. Sometimes it's just a gut. Because of that, I think performers of all, types, but in particular wrestlers or maybe just because I've been closer to that part of it

are some of the most insecure people you'll ever meet. And it's not because they're weak people necessarily, but they're in an environment that is so subjective and political that you have to be aware of it and you end up thinking like, oh my gosh, what's this guy doing here? He's making way more money than I am. He doesn't need to be here. He's never paid his dues. Who'd he ever beat. He couldn't lace up Gene Okerlund's boots. I mean, that's like the default go-to mentality of so many people in just about every locker room. Not just about every locker room I've ever been into. There's degrees of it, but it exists. And if it did exist, Kenyon, Kenyon was smart. It was smart dude. If somebody would have buzzed him on that, he would never even hear about

what he was doing offline or outside of Russell. So I don't know if that was a problem from or not. I'd like to talk somebody that knew him really well, which, by the way, I tried really hard to get Raphael Morphy, you know, people that are in the industry pretty much will recognize his name. Raphael's working with us on a Real American Freestyle. And when Raphael heard that we were doing this podcast, he texted me early this morning, said, man, this is crazy.

Raphael and Chris grew up together. They lived in the same neighborhood. And they both ended up in the wrestling business, albeit different routes, obviously. Raphael on ticketing and promotion and Chris clearly has a talent. But they grew up together and knew each other really well. And I invited him on the show this morning to join us and just give us a little snapshot, but he had a previous commitment that he couldn't change. So maybe we'll do a follow up with Raphael one of these days and talk about Chris

and his childhood with someone that actually grew up with him. I've kind of a fun conversation. They went to those early WrestleMania's together too, Eric, like WrestleMania 4 and 5 in Atlantic City. I think, I think Canyon and Raphael went to those together, which is kind of fun.

Yeah, and I've heard Raphael talk about it before, like years ago. We had a conversation about it. And I completely forgot about it until this morning. I do want to ask you a little bit about Memphis. Before we see Canyon show up on WCWTV, he does appear on U.S.

W.A. TV, of course, that is the Memphis promotion known by Jerry Jarrett and Jerry Lawler. And it did feel like there were a handful of WCW, well, we'll call them underneath talent, the developmental talent like Chip Minton and the gambler. They both appeared on Memphis TV. But that is not an association that you guys kept for very long. Did that come through Jerry Jarrett or what was the WCW Memphis relationship like? There was none.

Okay. There was no direct conversations or pipeline or talent trade or developmental type of thing at all. Now, that doesn't mean that someone from USWA hadn't, didn't have a pipeline to either Terry Taylor or Kevin Sullivan or somebody else, you know, within WCW. That could very well have been. But to my knowledge, I don't ever remember hearing any of that coming up in actual conversation. I know that we're going to talk about the Canyon role, specifically, you know, before we're calling him Canyon or Chris Canyon, we're going to talk about mortis and how all that was created.

But do you remember ever seeing him before he embraces that character and we see him positioned as a star when he's just working as more of an enhancement talent? Did he stand out to you? because as someone who was watching at the time, it did feel like he was taller than a lot of those guys, physically bigger than a lot of those guys. Like he stood out as an enhancement talent, if that makes any sense.

Yeah, Chris was really gifted physically. I mean, just watch him in the ring. I mean, he has, he had the agility and the coordination and balance and speed of, you know, a 230 pound athletic ballet dancer. he was just he was fluid um fluid and innovative i think those are the two best ways to describe his entering style and it was obvious early on he was just unique enough really stand out you know and you've heard me beat up that thing i say all the time better than less than different that chris canyon is a classic example of different than you just described why physically yeah

he was a little bigger, he stood out a little bit more, he was gifted in that respect. And he worked hard at it. It didn't just happen by accident, right? He worked at that. But it was his style in the ring that made him different dad. And it wasn't so different that you went, oh, yeah, that's really cool, but I don't see how that fits. It's a dance, right? Just because you're amazing at doing a bunch of crazy shit or unique things, not seen before.

It doesn't mean your dance partner is going to be able to. to dance well with you, right? So Chris was able to adapt. He could work with just about anybody and still integrate something different them almost every time. You see, you know, there were sometimes little things, but it was always something that made you go, huh, pretty cool, but it fit within the context of everything else we were doing.

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most of those food banks they're filled with factor these guys are professional athletes they've figured out they want something that's got protein that fits their lifestyle that's ready fast that travels well and most importantly that tastes great factor checks all those boxes go find out what all the boys already know and get started at factor meals dot com slash 83 weeks 50 off use the code 83 weeks 50 off and you're going to get 50% off plus free shipping on your first box that's code 83 weeks 50 off at factor meals.com slash 83 weeks 50 off for 50% off plus free shipping that's factor meals.com slash 83 weeks 50 off so Eric let's just start at the beginning you know you've got this idea for blood runs cold and we've covered this in the

past in the archives this is something that was born and created and the wheels were in motion in advance of the NWO storyline, becoming exactly what it became. So let's just give some context for that. We also believe, and this has been the opinion of Tony Chivani, yourself, me, and everybody who's covered this subject in depth, a few years prior, the blood runs cold angle could have been hugely successful, but when faced with the reality of the NWO angle, it does feel like the timing is off a little bit. But when you were first having that idea, Eric, if you could take yourself to that place mentally,

how deep did you think you needed to make this sort of alternate universe? I mean, we know that we're going to get a glacier character. We're going to get a Mortis character. We're going to get a wrath character. There's James Vandenberg. We're also going to introduce Ernest Miller at some point. Did you think this would be a collection of, you know, two guys, four guys, eight guys? What was the big vision once upon a time for this different universe, if you will?

The macro, you know, the 32,000 feet looking down, I wanted a sufficient number of these characters that would create a licensing and merchandising opportunity, meaning I didn't want it to be just one, a slur, for example, Glacier. Although he was the first character, I wanted a cast of characters to increase the opportunity for licensing and merchandising based on the success of this archetype of character in the video games, in the video game industry. So that was like the big idea, if you want to call it a big idea. That was the big idea I had, at least. And two things. One, if that idea would have been executed 18 months prior to the NWL,

I think it would have been, it might not have been a home run, but it would have been a double, maybe a triple for sure, in terms of licensing and merchandising. If we would have had a platform like Nitro. So because we didn't at that time. So I think if as long as we're playing hypotheticals here, if Nitro would have happened, say in 1994, yeah, 94 had this idea been developed and ready for the big stage

where we were doing 5 million, 6 million viewers every Monday night, had against WWE, I think this, this, idea, the blood run cold's idea would have been a monster. If the blood runs cold idea, even exactly as it was presented at WCW, would have taken place in WWE, say in 1992, 1993, 1994, it would have printed money. But because of the timing, part of it obviously the NWO, because that kind of changed the audience's appetite quite a bit almost overnight. relatively speaking it felt like overnight um but had that thing happened had the blood run cold idea happened in wwee like i said 93 94 it would have made a lot of money because they

had the licensing in place wcW didn't it took wcdw two or three years after the two years after the launch of nitro after having defeated wcd for whatever, how many weeks in a row at that point, we still didn't have a mature licensing and merchandising infrastructure. It took us to about 1997, really 1998 before that kicked in. And by that time, blood runs cold. The idea was number one dated because the whole mortal combat thing had been around now for a while.

It didn't feel new and fresh. And number two, the audiences doing habits just for appetite, I should say, had just changed. did you think though that this could be its own like perhaps video game for wcw this could be its own series of Halloween costumes and action figures like a whole new and I know we hate that's licensing merchandising right that was the idea I didn't think we'd be producing you know we were in the business of producing on our video games that's a you know it's a specialized kind of thing we didn't have the infrastructure to do that but I certainly saw video games, I saw apparel, clearly, soft goods as they refer to it, hard goods in terms

of merchandise, whatever that may be, it makes if you will. So yeah, I saw a lot of opportunity for this. It's just the timing sucked. How big of a contributor to this whole concept was Andre Freitas at AFX studios? Major, major. And, And he probably doesn't get enough credit, but Andre was a very unique person. He had amazing creative skills and the ability to take an idea that's in his head and turn it into something you can hold in your hand. And his art was pretty cool, very cool, very cutting edge. But what made him, what made Andre really important.

important and unique in this respect was that, for example, in designing the Blood Runs Cold gimmick for Glacier, it had to be stuff that Glacier could move in. You had to be able to wrestle in that, right? So it's one thing to make something that looks really cool on a piece of paper and maybe even looks cool when it's being presented, but when you put it on a wrestler and say, could go out there and give me 16 minutes, it can become a problem. So Andre not only had to create the idea, and all I did was give them the basics. I didn't sit down and make notes of design or anything like that. I said, Andre, here's what I'm looking for. Here's the big picture.

Here's some examples of what I'm looking for. And ultimately, this is my goal. Call me when you've got something for me to look at it. And then he did everything himself. He worked with the talent. He worked with Ray Lloyd. So he designed something that Ray Lloyd could identify with and feel good about and felt like it was a part of him and not just the costume he put on every month night or whatever. Same thing with Canyon. He made everything so unique, but he did it by collaborating with the talent.

It was a very cool process. I didn't enjoy it as much as I should have because I just didn't. understand it and I tend to to delegate really well don't fuck around with stuff I don't know much about and I knew that Andre did so I kind of stayed out of it but I almost wish I would have been a part of that process only to learn a little bit more about how Andre pulled it all off but he was a major force I do want to ask whether any color cues given as best you can recall I bring that up because I know there is the psychology of colors and from a marketing standpoint and a branding standpoint, you know, colors matter.

I mean, we often saw Hulk Hogan, for instance, always in the yellow and red. And that's how he became synonymous with it. So as you're creating these different characters within wrestling, if you're going to have a unique character like this, like a glacier, it does feel like he needs to have a standardized uniform. It's not like Superman showed up and wore something different every time. We knew what a Superman uniform would look like. So I'm curious when you're designing Glacier is sort of the central figure.

for lack of a better word, he's our Superman, he's our Batman, he's our hero. Okay, now we've got to have the bad guys around him. That does lend itself to, okay, black, but the color green sort of became synonymous with mortis a little bit. Is that something that would have been influenced by marketing groups or focus groups or something like that or Turner? Or does Andre have the ability to just sort of freestyle some of that? And you guys will prove it after the fact.

It was really the latter. We had no input. We didn't even really get access to, you know, creative and design. There was no logistic support at all from Turner Broadcasting as a whole. I shouldn't say that. There was some, but it's very, very limited. It's certainly not in a creative way. Other than, you know, Brad Siegel really having a big hand in the creation and design of the open to Nitro, that was an exception.

But the rest of it was all Andre. And I would imagine Andre considered some of that. I didn't. I didn't direct that. There was no process that involved third parties to supply input to any of that kind of psychology behind the color scheme. The only thing I do remember having some participation in was Ray Lloyd's gimmick, the first one. We knew we wanted to go with the ice runs cold. That was the brand, or the branding statement, I should say, more accurately.

So the colors were all about ice. That's why the blue and a lot of the snow, you know, and that all of those colors were part of it resulted in a, as a result of, you know, a number of conversations about what that character in specific was going to look like. going forward from that it was a laundry one thing i do want to ask you about is the idea that mortis is wearing a mask you know raft didn't really have a mask glacier didn't really have a mask mortis does and i wondered you know was that strategic because i don't remember you guys selling

mortis mask but obviously you know we're going to learn through ray mysterio that boy there's a lot of money and selling masks for these major wrestling corporations but it's interesting of all three characters respectfully with with regard to wrath and glacier it does feel like mortis becomes the cult phenomenon the cult favorite and i'm wondering with the benefit of hindsight how much of that do you believe is because of the man who portrayed the character and how much is it the fact that it was different he did have a mask it was a cool costume like we all know canyon the great wrestler but this character mortis it does feel like it has survived and thrived better than the other two what do you chalk that up to eric

uh right i mean the character's name is mortis which you know takes you know day of the dead type of yeah but um Andre was a little dark his taste artistically was kind of dark. So I would, again, I wasn't part of the process. I didn't really, I would check in on it and get updates, sign off on a general direction, but I didn't really dig into Andre's process. What led him to that and why? I'm 100% convinced that that was just Andre having the ability and the freedom creatively because I gave it to them to do what you think looks cool in collaboration with the talent because they're the ones that have to go out and perform in it that just came back but I think the coolness of that I don't know where I don't know where Andre got his

inspiration for it there was no like okay should we try a mask on this guy because we think there's licensing and merchandising because you know 10 years from now we're going to to find out that there's a lot of money in mass. We didn't have that crystal ball. That business wasn't really a big business back then. I didn't have the foresight to see it coming either. So it happened because Andre just thought it was cool shit and so did Cannon. You know, the other thought I was going to ask,

and I'm glad you cleared that up, was Canyon had been recently seen on WCW TV as an enhancement talent. So if you're going to put one of these guys under a mask to give them some more credibility. Putting him under a hood would give you a fresh coat of paint. At that point, it had been years since we had seen Ray Lloyd working enhancement talent for WCW. And of course, we'd most recently seen Brian Clark as Adam Baum on WCWF programming. So either way, the result is a cult classic. I mean, even little kids at the time who were watching WCW, he couldn't help but think that this character, this persona that was created was

cool. And I get at the time, man, we've got more than we can say grace over in WCW with the success of the NWO. We're going to start Bill Goldberg in 1997 and get him going. And obviously, Brad Hart's going to fall in your lap. You're going to have to create thunder. Like things are changing here and WCW's growing at a breakneck pace. But now with the benefit of hindsight, all these years later, you've got to take a look at what you had mortis and think, man in a different in an alternate universe we have more time to exploit that character don't you oh i mean that's one of those things you know i don't spend it probably any time unless i'm on this show with you in particular thinking about what could have been yeah waste of time

but you know when it comes to someone like canyon yeah wish that that would be fun to do over i don't I wish I could do it over again because I'm realistic about things. But had I known then what I know now, and had we had probably more time, even though I gave Andre a lot of time to develop this, it was still, it was rushed. Creatively, not in terms of producing the characters and the gimmicks, to use the word so disrespectful in a case like this because that that costuming, the design that went into it, including the lighting packages and everything else, that was an extensive collaborative effort that people worked hard at.

But that has a lost where I want the point I wanted to make there. Well, I'll tell you this. So you wish that you had to do over on the mortis creative. Something you'll never request to do over on is our friends at Ridge. If you're not familiar, let me just catch you up here. Ridge is the last wallet you'll ever need. Literally, the last wallet you'll ever buy. All the Ridge products come with a lifetime warranty.

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I get to keep everything I need in it it's so easy the cars are easy to access put back in it's really really a cool idea that's off to them also I want to point out Adam 453 who's following along live with it said I get why Glacier didn't connect with the adult all that at the time, but what about kids? Did that demographic matter at all? That's a really good question, Adam. Thank you for chiming in. Yeah, it mattered and was also part of the equation in the idea of developing, there we go, because you said, camera time, Adam, that was also a part of the equation in terms of creating it because WCW's audience was really old, like really old. truth be known the average age of our view at the time was probably similar in a high 40s low 50s

TBS as a whole had a very old audience older audience because of the replays that they were such a prominent part of the brand for such a long time so the whole blood runs cold idea was also a way to kind of bring up our teens and preteens. Because at the time, that was a key demo. We all talk about 18 to 49-year-olds in wrestling now because of me, frankly. But at the time, teen and pre-teen was also a premium target because the amount of money that that demo spends or is spent upon them by mom and dad was. significant an advertiser's point.

So that great question, Adam, and yes, that was part of the equation to help shore up a non-existent kids audience. Let's talk a little bit about what's next here for Glacier. By 1998, we know that James Vandenberg is gone. Before we move on, what did you think of the mortis James Vandenberg pairing? Did you like that as an on-screen presentation? No, but that had, look, the reason Mortis had a manager is because promos weren't Chris's strong suit.

He excelled in everything else. His promo ability was marginal. And it made sense to have somebody speak for him. It made sense to have a manager. I just was never a fan of. what's his name van denberg yeah yeah you didn't like father mitchell no i just not him personally i didn't have a feeling one way or the other but i didn't like his character i didn't like the way he was presented obviously i didn't do anything about it but it wasn't i wasn't a fan

of it was just there it was it wasn't necessary i'm not asking this to be funny i realize that it seems like a punchline the way i asked but the other guy when you whenever you had like an oddity type character like this because i do feel like that's the way he was positioned at times i'm talking about canyon and vandenberg i think was presented as like a collector of oddities so when i think about okay this guy sort of a square peg i think about jimmy heart because jimmy heart at times was of course a mouthpiece for uh the dungeon of doom If Mortis wasn't rep by James Vandenberg, would Jimmy Hart have been his hypothetical manager or would it have been someone else? It had to be somebody else.

Jimmy was great at what Jimmy did, but at this time even, Jimmy was already in his 60s and was so branded primarily with Hulk, but a lot of others, it was. the right fit. It was bad casting. It has nothing to do with Jimmy's abilities or talent had everything to do with the way his brand had been presented. And I don't think it would have been a good fit. I would not consider that. I would have liked to have had a darker, more mysterious, less over the top. Our characters were over the top enough. I didn't need an over the top announcer. Basically, that's what a manager is. I didn't need an over-the-top manager. I needed somebody that was mysterious and a little dark,

but not over the top. And Vandenberg was over the top. And Jimmy was way over the top. So it would have been bad casting, Jimmy. I wonder, with the benefit of hindsight, do you think that that was a weak spot for WCW? You didn't have enough, you didn't have a strong manager stable?

no no I mean from a business perspective you can't keep a stable of guys who are really only they only exist to solve a problem they don't exist because they draw money just you know they're all goes oh my god that's not true okay from a business perspective they're there to plug a hole the talent is good enough on the mic okay we're going to have to spend the extra money fix that but to have a stable of those people ready to go like in case of emergency just business wise it wouldn't have made sense it wasn't a weak spot it wasn't a blind spot it was a decision not to become reliant on because otherwise it's too easy before you know you got half a dozen or dozen managers on your roster each making 150 grand a year. Because if they're not worth at least 150 or 200 grand a year, they probably suck.

Or suck as hard. They probably just aren't really going to deliver much. They're just going to be there and serve a purpose. And that gets kind of expensive. Well, I guess the reason I ask is, you know, I mean, for a long time, Roman Raines was kind of the square peg with the WW universe. He's paired on screen for five minutes.

with Paul Heyman, the bloodline story begins, and they go on a generational run. So I just wondered, you know, because we saw even in the heyday, the golden era of the WWF, Hulk Hogan at different times had a heel factory. So it was Hulk Hogan against someone represented by the Hennon family. So for years and years, it felt like it was, you know, Hogan versus one Hennon's crew or that sort of thing. So I was just curious if you ever felt like, you know, the lack of a Jim Cornett or the lack of a Paul Heyman or those type characters. Because obviously Bobby was, was with WCW by that point, but no longer in a managerial capacity. But it just didn't feel

like in that we'll call it Nitro era, there was ever a focus on the classic heel manager mouthpieces that we had seen in other territories or even here in WCW in the early 90s. Yeah, well, a couple things on that. First of all, Paul Heyman, even back then, was

yeah, would you like to have four or five Paul Heymans on your roster? Sure you would. Go find them. They don't exist. Paul's a very, very unique talent. There's nobody like him. Bobby Heenan, as you pointed out, Bobby didn't want to be a manager that was in his contract. He didn't want to be in a ring. He didn't even like being near the ring because of his

neck issues. So Bobby Heenan wasn't an option. It would have been fool if he would have been because things would have been way more entertaining if we would have been used Bobby in that role, been able to use Bobby. But we weren't. So we didn't have Paul Eamon. We weren't going to get Paul Heyman, same with Jim Cornett. Now, I didn't try to get Jim. I'm not sure he would have even taken a phone call at the time, but I don't put Jim quite in the same category as Paul Heyman, but he's in the same zip code for sure. But beyond those two, taking Bobby out of the equation, there just wasn't anybody.

That was really that good, certainly not on the level of a Jim Cornett or Paul And if you can't have somebody on that level, it's better not to have somebody. And again, wrestling had changed. We're talking about how the NWO and we're Nitro and the reality-based programming is becoming a little bit more dominant on the format. We still had the other stuff, but reality, the audience had developed an appetite for the reality-type wrestling that WCW Nitro was the first to really present. that made it even more difficult.

So, no, I just, I think, I think that, yeah, Roman's an exception because Paul's an exception. And that worked. It's about everybody that gets hooked up with Paul Heyman, that it kind of works, but there just wasn't enough of them. Let's talk a little bit about what Mortis is going to do now that James Vandenberg is out of the picture. Mortis is going to try to join Ravens flock. He's

going to get rebuff, though. So he's going to start trying to make Ravens' life a living hell. He's going to go through a litany of different disguises, and eventually mortis unmasks and reveals himself and rebrands himself

as Chris Canyon. So I hated to see the demise of the Mortis character. I love the Mortis character. We're clearly going to move on. and transition. I know that this is asking you a really deep cut all these years later, but is this something you remember Chris Canyon being excited about,

shedding the mask and the persona and becoming himself? Chris Canyon, obviously that's not his government name, but when you're taking the mask off and you're no longer having a mouthpiece and now you're you, is this exciting or nerve-wracking? for a young Chris Canyon, do you think? No, no.

My guess would be, because I don't remember we call having a conversation with Chris about it. It's just one of those things that just kind of evolve. We're thinking about going this direction. What do you think? Here, let's try it. But there may have been a lot more to it than that. I just wasn't involved in it or don't remember either way. If I had to guess, I'm feeling Chris was probably excited about it.

I'm sure he embraced it because that's the way Chris was. Whether it was something that someone else asked him to do or he decided to do himself, he kind of approached things with the same intensity and commitment. But thinking is probably something that Chris was excited about. out because your face is a weapon if you're a performer, a good performer. Your face is one of the best tools in your toolbox if you're a good performer. I talked earlier about Chris's ability to sell. A lot of it has to do with your facial expressions, the way you sell to the camera,

and the emotion you're able to convey, whether you're on offense or you're on defense. being able, that's one of the reason why I wanted to take the mask off right back in the 90s is because it allows the audience to connect to the character in a deeper way. Even if it's subconsciously, because you could see the pain, you can see the joy, you can see the anger, you can, then you can feel it vicariously while you're watching at home or you're in the arena. Obviously there's an argument for not having, we're not taking a mask off. I think at that time, because.

as money and merchandising or masks, or WCW at least, was not anything anybody was excited about. So I think, therefore, Chris probably liked it. It's a guess. Yeah, I mean, as a reminder, I mean, I think now when we look at this character and the career of Chris Canyon, through the lens of 2025, we can all say, man, that Mortis character was super cool. but let's remind everybody that really the epitome of cool and say 97 98 were guys like stone cold

Steve Austin Scott hall and Kevin Nash two of the three of those guys are using their real actual like driver's license names and the other guy is just this you know uh hillbilly redneck badass who's just drinking beer and kicking people's ass and driving a pickup truck so reality more so than fantasy is what is perceived as being cool here in 97 and 98. But I am curious when you think back to that time, I mean, we know what did or didn't happen now with the benefit of hindsight. But when we're transitioning away from the masked character and persona of mortis, and we're going to go towards more like the real life Chris,

and we're going to call him Chris Canyon, did you ever imagine at some point in the future that Chris Canyon may dawn the mortis outfit again much like we've seen the different split personalities of Finn Baller and the demon or the Undertaker the American badass versus the dead man. Is this

something you thought he could go back to it in the future much like we saw Cactus Jack sometimes come out of the mankind character or was it more like no it's packed away it's in the rearview mirror and we're moving on. I don't think it was either one

I don't think once we kind of i'll use the term abandoned but once we stepped in a different direction with chris canyon there was never okay that's it it's dead put it up for sale put it in put it in the vault it wasn't that had there been an idea that was born out of this new character or storyline where it was like hey i got an idea he's in this situation and he's down three to one he's way behind he needs to make a comeback he comes back as mortis to confuse his opponent he's a stupid storyline you're tag it in works so it wasn't one or the other i wasn't sitting there going ah i see what the undertaker's doing so someday we're going to be able to bring this back or

in six months here's what i want to do with this character it wasn't that that would be a lie but I was willing to go back to something that worked if it fit a story. Well, here's the story now. If you've ever seen a sweaty butt print and you know you're going to have to sit in that spot after, you may wonder to yourself, I hope that fellow knows about Tushy or if your manhood right now feels like it's in the panhandle of Florida this time of year. Let me just give you some great news. You can refresh yourself daily without jumping in the shower.

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Keep your swampiest body parts fresh and cool. For a limited time, our listeners can get 10% off their first bidet when you use our code 83 weeks at checkout. That's 10% off your first bidet order at hellotushy.com with the promo code 83 weeks. Oh, Dave, could you leave that back up there just for a second? Look at that young lady sitting on the toilet. Look at that face. The thing that makes me chuckle at that is I'm thinking, what did her agent say to her when he called her and said,

hey, I've got a gig for you. And she's all excited. She's thinking cover of a magazine. She's thinking some, you know, a TV commercial. No, you're going to sit on a toilet and like it's the best day of your life. And then the photographer had to get her in the studio. I said, okay, here's what I want you to do. I want you to sit down on the toilet.

I want you to look up at the sky. I want the happiest look you've ever had on your face. And this poor young girl sitting on a toilet going, how do I do this? It would have been a fun thing to watch. Hello, tushy.com, and be sure to use that promo code, 83 weeks. Hey, Eric, I want to ask you, you know, when it comes to the, the creativity of pairing a raven with a canyon is that a Kevin Sullivan call would Raven have made that request what did you think of the Canyon Raven pairing here's

how I bet that happened I wasn't involved but I'm almost certain it was some combination of Kenyon Raven Sullivan having fun bouncing ideas around a room and coming up with it I don't know if it was Raven and suggested it or Canyon or Kevin Sullivan saw it in his head that I couldn't tip but I do know those three in particular they thought along the same lines like Kevin Sullivan could relate to Raven I couldn't I didn't get his character I mean I like Scott Levy as a person I didn't have a personal problem with Scott Levy but the character the kind of grunge pearl gems inspired miserable hates the world the world hates me kind of darkness I didn't

see the money in it. I mean, I saw the value in it because, again, grunge, which is what the whole thing was borne out of, despite what anybody wants to admit, been around for a while. And I understood the brand identity that it had and the perceived value that that part of pop culture could be. But for me, are the heels? Not really. There's a kind of bitching about shit that actually should piss people off in a way. Are they baby faces? No.

So they were unique in the sense that they were a really well-defined, strong brand. But creatively, it was a little difficult to blow it up and create story. And the balance of love and hate that any good story needs. it's going to survive really hard i do want to ask you about canyon behind the scenes it's around this era where we start hearing that canyon is helping uh more behind the scenes you know he's training celebrities for matches he's doing some stunt coordination for wcw connected movies or hollywood projects like arlis like and i've even read that at times he's served as almost like a talent scout of sorts.

How did he end up in this position, whose trust had he earned? This feels like someone at a more executive position was a real advocate for Chris. Who was that? Me? Through and because of the influence of Damondale's page. Because of the proximity, you know, in a relationship to Paige and I had, I had an idea. Much like you and I do, Conrad. I got an idea.

I'm going to call Conrad. We're going to riff on this idea because Conrad always comes up with better ideas or takes a good idea and makes it better. Whatever. And that was the kind of relationship I had with regard to wrestling with Page. He would come to me with ideas a lot. Weekends, Sundays, 2 o'clock in the morning. Yeah, there was always a constant kind of, a constant isn't fair.

There was a regular kind of volley of ideas. And sometimes we were just out shit around. You used to have a Mercedes 450 SL convertible. I don't know what year it was. It wasn't a new one, but it was cool as shit. I always loved those cars. Probably mid-80s at the time. And sometimes on Saturday, he'd come over to the house and the weather was nice.

You know, I would just drive around Atlanta. usually have a beverage or two while we're doing it and just talk wrestling ideas that page one of the ideas that i talked about with page a lot was we actually started to pursue this and it was with jason hervey as well we had it i can't remember what it was called but i'll really this is just coming back to me now as we're speaking but there was an initiative again to shore up the youth audience because we were so old. I wanted to come up with something that was really targeted. We were targeting 18 to 49 years year old demos and we were crushing it, absolutely crushing it. But we still had a week teen preteen demo. And it's the

cumulative number. You're selling ads across the board. You can't just focus on one at the expense of everything else. So it's like, okay, we want to shore up our teens and preteens. How do we do that? Okay. Typically, the audience skews up teen audience, the young audience, meaning if you're 12, you want to watch something that involves cool 16-year-olds. If you're 14, you want to see something that involves cool 18 to 20-year-olds, because that's the life you're looking forward to. I know this sounds like psychology, but it kind of is in a way. So knowing that, knowing that we had a hole in our demos, I was talking to page one day, and it's like, what if, you know, it could have been his idea first.

I don't know. I remember that shit. People keep track of that shit. I don't. The idea was it, fuck, I don't know. But it was in this exchange of, you know, Riffin ideas that we came up with. What if we take like six or eight really young, really green wrestlers? and put them on a bus and follow them around the country

is they participate in these small indie shows. I think we were actually going to produce the indie shows too. The small, not a WCW branded show, but we're going to put these small, independent, feeling, little shows on, and we were going to shoot reality on the bus. We were going to shoot reality outside of the arena in the independent action, and then, of course, cover the matches. It was going to be its own separate show.

Really believed in that idea. It should have worked. It could have worked. It would have worked had I actually pursued it. We became overwhelmed with other priorities. So the initial part of that process was, let's go find the kids. Let's go find, let's cast this. Got to populate it with the right type of performers.

We wanted guys that were 18, 19, 20, 21, 22. that could do some crazy shit that we weren't seeing a nitro or thunder, whatever. That's when about the time I think Paige said, I got the guy. Chris was already in house. I already liked Chris. I already had a relationship with Chris. I respected Chris's creativity. He talked a lot about stuff, wrestling stuff.

I liked him. I trusted him his instincts. He said, tag him in, let's do it. and Canyon, and I'm sure Paige was involved, because I was busy doing other shit. They took this project on, and he started, there was a wrestling promotion, I think it was in Marietta, Georgia, where these guys wrestled a parking lot on Saturday afternoons. And they just started going to some of those places and some of those events and networking within that kind of culture.

And that's where Jane Helms came from, or Hurricane came. He was born out of that initiative. You know, five pounds. You saw it on TBS. That's where that all came from. It came from that initial idea of touring these kids around the country at a bus and shooting a reality show, eventually making them stars,

be the reality show, and then moving them on over to either nitro or thunder. So that was the big schematic. That was the big idea. We started that process, and Chris Canyon had a lot to do with that. So when it came time for, okay, we've got to teach Jay Leno and Eric Bishop,

by the way, how to wrestle. I need to get him through a match. How do we do that? Chris was ideal, and Jay Leno loved working with Chris because Chris could explain things in a way that a non-wrestler can really understand it and figure out how to do it. He can not only explain it to you, he could teach you in a way that someone that had never even thought about performing in the rank

could go, oh, okay, I think I can do that. And it can get you through the process. or you know it, you're doing things that you would have never believed you could do. Chris is a really, really, really good instructor. He had empathy in the sense that he knew what you were afraid of or what you thought you couldn't do. And he could help you overcome that. That's what made him so good.

Let's talk a little bit about all the folks that DDP inadvertently helped get WCW contracts because we know that DDP is going to certainly campaigned for Canyon. Canion's going to prove to be very valuable. And we mentioned that at times he served to be a bit of a talent scout. There was a blip out there. And I guess it was in Canyon's obituary. Dave Beltzer always does a fabulous job in his wrestling observer with the obituaries of telling you about someone's entire career. But something he mentioned that I thought I didn't really know a lot about. I guess there was a report that Canyon once upon a time had been tasked with finding quote unquote American cruiser weights for a wrestling meets power ranger style show.

And I know that he is going to recruit a whole host of talent. But do you remember there being an order from Turner or an idea within WCW that you needed, you know, sort of acrobatic style wrestling for wrestling slash power ranger present No, that was just Dave Meltzer butchering the initiative that I just described. Okay, okay, that makes more sense. So there's a lot of talent that we would see attributed to a referral from Canyon

that was a June 1999 memo that was made public when WCW was defending themselves against a racial discrimination lawsuit and these new contracts, these trainee contracts, were revealed as a part of this memo, But these are people who are going to basically just get a jersey to be within the organization of WCW. It's not for major money, but maybe there'll be opportunities in the future. The talent that are attributed as being referred by Canyon, quote unquote, are Rick Cornell,

who we would later see at WCW as Reno, Ryan Forrester, not our comedian buddy, Shane Helms. What's up with that? AJ Stiles Jason Cross Shannon Moore Luther Briggs and Jimmy Yang Now there's other names who

would also be helped By Canyon and giving credit in the Wrestling Observer Newsletter as far as Canyon helping put in a good word for them in WCW names like Jeremy Lopez Jamie Noble

Shark Boy Tony Mamalook Christian New York and Joey Matthews ultimately a lot of really great talent you know in a different era in a different company

it was said at times that Sean Waltman for Vince McMahon and the World Wrestling Federation he was like the litmus test if you get the ring and share the ring with a guy and when they came back through the curtain in the back he could look at Vince and say hey this guy's got it

or he's not ready I'm not suggesting that you know these are the same performers are serving the same role but it did feel like Chris Canyon and he had an eye for talent maybe like Sean Waltman did the WWF fair to say I think it is I think it is fair to say because you look at some of the people on that list some of them are still in the industry today yeah AJ styles my gosh yeah you know so that's kind of a big damn deal but even Shane Helms Shane Helms has had an amazing career amazing career when it's all sudden done, even though Shane Helms never made it to, you know,

mainlining, or main, headlining a pay-per-view necessarily in WCW or WWE, and he worked with the Rock. Yeah. He worked with some of the biggest names on the biggest platform in the biggest business wrestling company in the world. Yeah. Now he's an agent behind the scenes. I would imagine if you add up every dollar he's made in professional wrestling

because of Chris Canyon, largely, he owes a lot to Chris. He's a very, very wealthy. I'm talking about Shane now. He may not be, you know, billionaire wealthy, but he's extremely well off. He's had an amazing career. A lot, and obviously it has to do with Shane, too. I'm not trying to make it all about Chris. But, you know, you've got to, for me, I think I have to be honest.

about what my life would look like if certain people hadn't influenced it dramatically so that I can be appreciative and remain grateful for the very unique opportunities that I am. And I like to think other people think at least a little bit the same way. And I think, Jane Helms, close a lot, Chris Canyon, as well as a lot of other people in that list. We are live here with Eric Bischoff talking to All Things Canyon. We're going to hit some news and notes about modern day wrestling at the end of the show. But if you've got a question, you can drop them now. I do want to take a minute here to answer a question from a wrestling historian.

He wants to know, did you prefer Canyon or Mortis? Thanks in advance. With the benefit of hindsight, you got to see both versions, you know, the mortis character, the dark brooding character who doesn't speak and an oddity with a martial arts background, just a pit fighter. And then there's Canyon, the Trash Stalker from New Jersey. What do you think? Do you have a preference, Eric?

Canyon. Yeah. Canyon. I mean, you know, the other characters served a purpose, or at least we attempted to serve a purpose. So I loved it. And it was an excellent character. It checked every single box we could have hoped to check, except for the part where

people really got them. But Canyon character, I liked because it was more creative flexibility in it. You can do more with a talking character. You can do more with someone identified with it and relate to good or bad. So I like the Canyon character. We know that the real life Chris Canyon is going to get one of the bigger opportunities of his life when he becomes a key figure in the ready to

rumble movie. I mean, he's really going to be a big part behind the scenes of creating some of these wrestling scenes and bringing them to life and working with the celebrities. and it's interesting because normally that sort of thing went to an L.A. based wrestler, someone like Chavo Guerrero Jr. in modern

times. But back then, you know, because of the W.T.W. affiliation you got a kid from New Jersey flying from Atlanta here to California to work on this movie. You know, with the benefit of hindsight, you know, do you think Canyon thought this

was the time of his life at the time? Did you realize what a big opportunity this was for Canyon? Because it does feel like something he took a lot of pride in after the fact you should have because it was a big opportunity and he appreciated it I was going through a little bit of shit at that time I was the one that got that movie made necessarily I was involved at the very beginning with Lorenzo de Bonaventura who is the Warner Brothers executive that made sure that movie got made and distributed and I had a lot to do with

that, the heavy lifting of that in the very beginning. Then I was let go, but by the time I was let go on September 99, that movie was in process. Fortunately, we had kind of laid the groundwork for Chris and who's going to train who before I left, and it continued. So I didn't have the same relationship to the project, obviously. I was supposed to play myself in a that movie that's the part that pisses me off it would have been really oh yeah so you would have been you instead of Joey pants playing yeah yeah they had they had to cast Joey pants because I was no longer part of Turner wow of WCW um but the idea of using Chris because we're using our wrestlers it just made so much sense and Chris had

already established he was so good at it I mean we worked Jay Leno and you know Christmas there was no better choice now looking back at that now in terms of wow what an opportunity and i almost feel sad you've been doing this because obviously chris is no longer with us but we've seen the success that chavo guerrero's had you know working for the rock behind the scenes he's done a lot of stuff in terms of stunt work and choreography he's probably the biggest name in that space in hollywood and professional wrestling and he's earned it he's worked hard and done well had a similar opportunity at that time and that would have opened up so much for Chris

outside of wrestling he couldn't be still doing that today if he was still with us and I think Chris knew the scope of the opportunity in some ways better than I did because I disconnected from it but looking back at it it was a massive opportunity for hey I do want to ask you know when when you have to take a look back at a unfortunately a story like canyons that came to a saddie and i can't help but wonder he did so well with ready to rumble and all we've ever heard from those he worked with even on the hollywood side of things not just the wrestling side was how great he was like in an alternate universe don't you think canyon could have had a a successful career in Hollywood is like a stuntman or a coordinator or something like that.

That's what he just mean. I mean, he could be Chris because number one, he was really likable and he was very relatable. Like you meet Chris, anybody could meet Chris and you'll be comfortable with him almost instantly. He was one of them, he just had that gift. Some people do.

Most people don't. He did. And he was incredibly talented on top of it and humble. You know, you take those qualities. If you've got exceptional talent, that Hollywood needs and you're a really easygoing guy that people just immediately take a liking to and you're really good at it you can be gold and I think Chris would have been

I think Chris would have had an entirely different career post WCW because of WCW so with us let's take a break right now and remind you that a true classic the mission goes beyond fit fabric. It's about helping guys show up with confidence and purpose. Their gear is going to fit right. It's going to feel amazing. And it's price so guys everywhere can step into confidence without stepping out of their budget. But what really sets True Classic apart, it's not just the fit or the fabric. It's the intention behind everything they do. True Classic was built to make an impact, whether it's helping men show up better in their daily lives, giving back to underserved communities or making people laugh with ads that maybe don't take themselves too seriously

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you can grab them right now at Target Costco or head on over to trueclicic.com slash 83 weeks and get hooked up today that's true classic.com slash 83 weeks and let's talk about what's next here

for Canyon we're going to see him become part of the Jersey triad. I know what you're thinking to yourself. Self isn't Canyon from New York? Yes, he is, but hey, we're not going to let one state line get in the way of what is going to be a really great trio from left to right. If you're watching with us on YouTube, it's Bam Bam Bigelow, the Beast from the East,

Diamond Dallas Page, the master of the diamond cutter, and who better than Canyon, to round out this trio, consistently one of the high points of WCW in 1999. there's a lot of stuff at WCW 99 that well maybe it didn't age that well but this group really worked why do you think this group clicked so well Eric chemistry partially about it before sometimes you put three people together it's like Hall Nash and Hogan was a little different because it was you know Hogan was so different than Hall and Nash and had to you know kind of become one with them And he did a great job with that.

But, you know, the NW. Hall National Holman was heavily influenced the characterization of it, heavily influenced probably, I'll say 6040, Scott Hall, Kevin Nash, right? They brought the vibe and the attitude. And that chemistry worked. The Jersey triad, that chemistry was already there. didn't have to evolve. These guys essentially grew up in the same area.

You know, one's Jersey and the other's New York. Okay, you could throw a frisbee from one to the other. Big damn deal. Same thing. The way you grew up and the way culture influenced you and things you liked and related to. So the chemistry was baked in with these three just because they're all from the same area at the same time.

Also, they just liked each other. Now, there was a real bond between DDP and Kenya. They were very close friends and worked a lot together on some of the initiatives like the one I described with kids in the bus. It turned out to be Power Rangers. What the fuck was that? I mean, yeah, mighty. But the chemistry was already there with those three.

And they all had the same accent. It was not hard to imagine that that they were really. from Jersey, even though Canyon was from New York. We know that WCW is going to get rebooted in April of 2000 as the shortlift Russo slash Bischoff combo regime. So that's going to make Canyon a baby face. He's associated with DDP. But the very next month at Slambury, that's where we have that triple cage.

And there's going to be a crazy stunt. Canyon's going to come off the top of that cage and go through the entrance ramp. this is the same building where a year prior of course we lost owen heart um we've recently talked with jeff about this and and with the benefit of hindsight i think he probably imagines everybody wishes they had a do-over what do you remember about canyon and his big bump off the top of the cage around the one year mark of when owen fell from the same building This is going to be very unpopular, but it didn't really register with me then, nor does it in hindsight.

I understand the emotion of it. I'm not saying people shouldn't feel the way they feel, particularly someone like Jeff, who was close to it. Yes. I get that. I am not at all dismissing that personal connection or the way they feel. feel about this because of that personal connection. It's real and it's honorable. It just doesn't apply to the masses. It doesn't, it didn't apply to the way I was going to conduct

business as long as I was safe, as long as we were doing things that we felt comfortable doing and we had the right people in place to ensure it. That actually didn't, that actually it didn't happen on my watch. It didn't happen in WCW's watch. So to change the course of my business, which is doing things that we're comfortable doing that we know are safe, to change the way I'm doing business, we are doing business, to accommodate the feelings of a group of people that feel differently because of their personal relationship, it's not a, I just didn't make that decision then, and I wouldn't make it now. It's, in a way, not for people like Jeff, I'll be clear about them.

But for the masses who like to chirp up and talk about shit like this, It's their version of virtual signaling. Please look at me, like me, retweet me, post this. That's what 90% of that conversation is. Some of it is legitimate. I'm empathy for those people. I try to understand that, but it can't alter the way you do business. Are we going to stop NASCAR because somebody died on track?

We finished the race. right most of the time i guess i don't know i don't know i don't know nascar well enough to know but when somebody gets hurt off on the football field you don't know they're dead or alive does the game stop eric i appreciate where you're going bud but normally in wrestling matches we don't have people repelling down from the ceiling so it's a little disingenuous to make a comparison to a NASCAR race or a football field. This is a stunt show that went wrong. And when I were in the same building doing another stunt show, my question was really more about do you remember Canyon being nervous about or trepidacious about doing a stunt show in the same

building when a member of this relatively small little wrestling community had a tragic result with a stunt in the same building of year prior. No. Now, did he have thoughts or feelings that he didn't express? Right. At least to me, maybe I can't tell you what it was in his mind.

Sure. But here's why I can tell you that I don't think he did. Because if he would have come to me for any reason, any reason, whether it was because of what happened a year previous in the same building or because he just didn't feel like it was the right day. If he would have said, I'm not comfortable doing this stunt, we wouldn't have done the stunt.

Right. So I can't say with authority, I know what Hennon was thinking that he didn't express, but had he expressed any discomfort, we wouldn't be talking about. let's talk a little bit about what's the next for canyon here in the aftermath we're going to see canyon turn on ddp and we're going to get something that was a real highlight of his career i enjoyed it it was fun positively canyon so we're going to see ddps just put a book out called

positively page and it's very detailed and meticulously researched and of course Well, so were his matches. So Canyon is going to slowly lose his mind on television and become a parody of DDP. He's going to run around giving everybody in sight diamond cutters. This was a real bright spot in WCW in the year 2000. You know, we're not taking ourselves too seriously. We're having entertaining segments. We're pulling it off masterfully.

That's what I'm starting to appreciate more than anything else. Canyon could make almost anything work, whether it was the serious, you know, dark and brooding mortis or this silly over-the-top positively canyon. I like that we're getting to see his range. What did you think of this, uh, DDP parody? I don't know, I might not, wouldn't this happen? What was? Do you have a time for you remember this?

2000. Yeah, I definitely wasn't. I don't think I was watching. Maybe I was. Maybe I was there for a minute with Rousseau. I don't remember. I don't remember this. This is a moment it hit me at the first time.

It cracks me up. It is so DDP. I promise you, every letter, every comma, every period that went into playing this thing out on paper originated from DDP. What a fantastic one. way to create entertainment and it's fun right it's entertaining and selling ddp's book it checks all the boxes that's the ddp part right there yeah ddp is without question these of v this thing that i completely forgot about if i ever knew in the first place diamond dallas page it is the He is the consummate self-promoter.

Now, usually when you call someone a self-promoter, it's almost derogatory. In this case, I mean it as a freaking compliment. This guy has figured out more ways to brand himself than anybody in the business other than maybe Hulk Hogan and Rick Flake. He's just, but he sued 50 cents for crying out. out he's just a branding machine and this is a fun way to to to exploit that and have and create good television it's awesome to be clear before you send all your hate tweets in ddp sued jZ for the day z okay sorry thank you i'm glad because i dig 50 cent i think he's

he's a number one he's really talented guy not only as a as a rapper but he's doing some great in television and feature films. And he's a really good business man. So I'm glad it wasn't him. I wonder what 50 cents thinks about blah, blah, blah, blah, but blue chew. Guys, enter the room, dick first. Blue chew isn't just a tablet.

It's a cheat code for your gimmick. Stronger, harder, longer lasting. Like someone gave your downstairs a pep talk and a gym membership. Blue chew is a brand new chewable that now has better sex for your life don't you want better sex for your life of course you do this isn't just a supplement this is an erection resurrection have you ever tried to tuck in a submarine that's what we're talking about here guys it's not just about performance it's about your legacy or your third legacy give her group chat something to talk about you know when you lay it down

they're talking about how it gets up and nothing makes you more of a legend than a little blue chew discover your options right now at bluechew.com and we've got a special deal for our listeners as always get your first month of blue chew free just use the promo code 83 weeks at checkout and pay five bucks for shipping that's it join blue shoe's mission to upgrade humanity one thrust at a time head to bluechew.com for details and important safety information and we thank blue shoe for sponsoring today's podcast Eric let's talk about one of the more iconic moments in canyon's career positively canyon is going to challenge buff bagwell to a judy bagwell on a pole match

now of course we know it winds up being judy on a forklift but what a fabulous match what a fabulous moment in wcw history by the way there's another moment here that people i mean look at this if you're watching with us on youtube the idea that cany is driving a forklift to the ring and judy bagwell is on the forklift god bless that woman i wish she was still with us just so we could have her do a run in right now i mean this right here eric when i think about wcw i think about hollywood holcogan turning his back and telling these fans they can stick it brother and then i think about the shockmaster coming through the

wall but somewhere on that list of mount rushmore wcdb moments it might be Judy Bagwell on a pole. Man, Canyon, dude. He had a lot of big, important moments in Nitro history. It's just like I was talking about the young lady that was the model sitting on a toilet for Tushy. Yes. I'm having a hard time imagining what the conversation was like when Mark Magwell came home one day and said, Hey, Mom, pull up a chair.

Got an idea. I have an idea I want to run by you. And imagine is I'm laughing because, you know, I got to know Judy a little bit. She was young at heart, let's put it that way. I could see her going, well, I can see her kind of engaging. But at some point, she had to go away. My crazy son lost me on a forklift. Didn't he break his neck?

Is this, does he really love me? It's insane. I would have just loved a bit of front fly on the wall to hear him explaining to his mom what this was going to be. And just to see her reaction. And it could have been exactly the opposite of what I would expect. She could have been like, oh, that is awesome. Let's do that, Mark. I don't know, but it's funny to think about.

Hey, Mom, I got an idea. I want to mention that we also saw Canyon in this era. I think it was actually the episode of Thunder where he challenged. Judy Bagwell to this match this way, but we're seeing Canyon running around just hitting diamond cutters on random bystanders. Oh, yeah. And by the way, which got the diamond cutter over too. So now he's pitching his book and his finish.

He is. So earlier in the day, we even see, uh, Canyon hit a diamond cutter in a tiny corner of the screen. There's a wide shot that you guys are using as like a bumper as you go to a commercial break. and it's almost like a little Easter egg like a Where's Waldo Diamond Cutter I love that Canyon was so ingrained in the program

it does feel like he had friends in production and all throughout it's no surprise what a beloved figure he was we know that the Judy Bagwell on a pole match at New Blood Rising is going to lead to Canyon disappearing for a few months that pay-per-view match with Judy Bagwell

on a forklift was August the 2000 he's going to come back in February of 01 to finish the DDP feud. You're there, but kind of not really. You're trying to put together the funding to purchase WCW. And of course, we know there's a battle for the plan of, you know, what the new WCW might have looked like. Had you been successful in raising the funding and closing that deal,

would Canyon have been featured in your version of WCW after a takeover? 100%. Not even a thought in any number of capacities at this point, including creative because he's a very creative guy. Here's another thing about Chris. This is another thing that people, if you're a, I don't care if you're, you think you're a season to wrestler. Unless you work for WWE and you're listening to this show, take a lesson from Canyon. Conrad just pointed it out. One of the reasons that Canyon was such a go-to, in addition to his work in the ring,

in addition to his ability to teach and set up matches and lay things out, all the stuff we've been talking about for one hour and 34 minutes and 49 seconds. Chris also had the instinct to work with, hey, Jackie Crackett, running that you're running the handheld in this corner right tonight. Hey, in this match, I'm going to try something. I want to give you a heads up. And this is where I'd like you to be. This is where I'm going to be.

And you might be able to get a really cool shot. He'd have those conversations. He'd have the conversations with Craig Leathers, the director. He'd have those conversations with the handhelds that were down on the floor. And he worked through the cameras in a way that the audience didn't really recognize. but maximized his TV time. And the reason he got so many opportunities is he's freaking good at it. You don't want to tell Jackie Crockett, who's running the handheld camera,

which is our prime handheld camera, Jackie's was because he was the best at it. You don't want to tell him you're going to do something, set it up, be sure your camera's here. We're ready to be ready for the shot, Jackie, and then do it on the wrong side of the ring. Kisses people up. They really want to, because the cameraman, they want to look good too. They want a pat on the back. They also want the artistic.

They'll go, wow, I've never seen anybody get that shot before. So they're vested in doing their job. And if you're a talent and you're helping them look better, they're going to treat you much differently than they treat other people. But treat other people the way they'll just do their job, but they'll do more than their job for you. That's one of the reasons why Chris got as many opportunities as he did it's because he was smart enough to collaborate

with people that most people wouldn't have collaborated. Let me ask you, Eric, I know that you weren't involved in WW management. We do know that Canyon does join the WWE. He's going to be a part of this WCW slash ECW invasion storyline. He doesn't get much, you know, really past that. He's cannon fodder in that. It doesn't feel like he's necessarily positioned for success within the company. And I've heard some people say that maybe that's because his in ring style wasn't exactly, you know,

what WWE was doing at the time. I mean, we know that a lot of people he influenced feel like he was, you know, 10 or 15 years ahead of the curve with his ring style. But other people would point out, hey, man, it's really hard to stay. stand out when you've got this glut of new talent. So the WWF has been rocking around here for years successfully, but now they've got all the new WCW talent and the new ECW talent. And oh, by the way, they've still been developing talent in their developmental territories. Is it a case of Canyon just having bad timing in the WWF? Was his style not the right fit

in the WWF? Or was it something else? just taking a guess it should not surprise anybody that I hold Chris in high esteem I liked Chris a lot you've just heard quite a bit of what I think about

what I thought about Chris as a performer and a professional that being said we spent a little time in WWE both as a talent for three or four years and then five minutes as a executive got a pretty good feel for generally speaking the way Vince evaluates talent and it starts with the first impression he's very this was very visual so that part of it had

that part of it had to click initially if you're going if somebody's going to keep Vince's attention he has to see something that makes him go ah this could be something to work with. Chris's magic was something that was not necessarily obvious, that's something that you'd feel in a first impression. Chris was very humble, very down to earth, unpretentious, ready to explode on the inside. On the outside, he was a very humble guy.

that's not the kind of personality that necessarily stands out to Vince. And I think Vince, probably because there was a lot of talents and there was a lot of moving pieces with the acquisition, I have no idea what, you know, original ideas or plans were, you know, circulating at the time. But it was a lot. I would bet that Chris just didn't make the right first impression. just didn't give Vince his attention

Vince never got an opportunity to see what Chris was capable of that's unfortunate that was WWE's loss honestly you know there is the unfortunate reality that Chris would find out later in life

that he was diagnosed to be bipolar and we know that he had struggled with that disorder untreated for a long time and I can't help but wonder and if he would have had that information earlier in life

could his enjoyment and quality of life been improved. We also know that he struggled with his sexuality he was a closeted gay man and there was an implication in certain circles that when he was released from

WWE that perhaps he was released because he was homosexual others would challenge that and say they don't even think it was common knowledge that Chris was homosexual do you remember in WCW anyone even knowing that Eric or I mean I know that sounds silly to even discussed but was it even a talking point

do you remember every even being discussed I didn't hear that until he was as a fan until he was out of WWE but was that knowledge out there in WCW no I was pretty close to that group. Yeah. And again, you know, keep in mind, I was the boss.

Right. So what people said, even with my close friends, I was still the boss, which still kind of changed the conversation some of the time. So I can't imagine what was or was it said not around me. but I've never heard any nobody cared nobody said it if it was known nobody said anything I certainly didn't know nor care yeah that's the thing I mean great thankfully society has changed you know whereas once upon a time that would have been a talking point or at least a discussion or whispers in the locker room or whatever in in 2025 I don't even think it

would make anyone's radar I mean it just doesn't matter but I can't help but wonder, man, about just the mental health and support of Chris. You know, it's obviously a much different circumstance, but J.R. and I earlier this year had a conversation about Tammy Sitch, and we know that her mental health issues have been addressed now that she's unfortunately in prison, but, you know, you can't help but wonder how many lives could have been affected differently had they gotten treatment sooner. So, and maybe it didn't stand out in wrestling. You know, being bipolar, wrestling is such a weird form of entertainment.

It does lend itself to, you know, if you're over the top sometimes, oh, well, it's wrestling, right? Well, no, I, I, bipolar is, you know, Scott Hall dealt with bipolar issues. Sure. And that's not the same thing as while they're just over the top. It's not the same thing. at all. We're going to be taking some questions here from Canyon. If you've got questions, we want to hear them.

We are live here with Eric. Michael Collins says Canyon had something of a speech impediment. Did this assure you any confidence in him to be a good promo guy and thus a huge star? Fair observation. Interestingly enough, yes, I noticed it right off the bottom. that, I said earlier on, interviews weren't Canyon's strongpoint. Part of that was because Chris was well aware of it. And as a result, almost didn't come naturally out of him.

He was aware of it. Like anybody that's aware of something like that, you try to hide it. You try to minimize it. Don't draw attention to it. which is probably why interviews, promos, wasn't his strong suit. Not because he didn't have the talent. It's because there was a little bit of a block there. Chris realized, right?

But like everything else, he overcame that in terms of developing in the ring and developing his character. By the time the mask came off, it was no longer a concern of his. And therefore, his promos were. great. Now I won't say great, be honest. His promos were no longer a weak spot. They weren't as strongest suit, but it wasn't a flaw in the character. It was fine. That was a big accomplishment. So, yeah, I was aware of it. I noticed it. In the beginning, it held it back, but after a while, it didn't. And that was pretty cool. I didn't really think of it in those terms them to be up to be fair um but looking back at it now just as a result of this conversation

it's pretty cool we got another question here uh i think the innovator of offense was a pretty good nickname for cany had publicly coined by himself did you like this nickname for him the innovator of offense of course this is in response to to tommy dreamer in ecu being called the innovator of violence. Canyon did have a reputation for a lot of creative offensive combinations. I think he, Rob Van Dam, and Nova were often thought of to be the real innovators in that era. What do you think about that, the innovator of offense? I think it's about perfect.

It describes Canyon well. Aaron wants to know, how would you or where would you rank Kansas? on the all-time most influential list when you think about influential wrestlers I mean certainly guys like Ray Mysterio belong in that conversation do you think Canyon does as well Eric yes especially if there's like an early innovator award so much has been innovated in the last 10 years right I mean wrestling today there's a lot of it's still the same obviously but there's so much new stuff out there and it all started somewhere so much of it started with you know the lucidors the cruiser way division of nitro kind of grew from there but canyons approach

canyons offense also influenced a lot of people probably still does to this day even though some people don't even realize where it all started from definitely this would be should be on anybody's top five, top 10 innovator list in the last 30 years. Really fun question here from Michael. I hope you can give us any context because people have been dying to hear about this for a while. Canyon was apparently a great help for the ringwork depicted on the awful NBC Jesse Ventura made for TV movie that WCW was involved in. What are your memories of that fiasco?

Do you remember this at all? Eric. Zero. Zero. I'm going to have to dig it up. This is the first I've heard of it. Or if I heard of it, I just forgot about it because I didn't give a shit. But I think I would have to remember this. Well, something that we're going to be talking about is what's happening this weekend in WWE. Of course, as you and are talking, Eric, WWE is setting up and about ready to go for WWE Smackdown. which is coming to us from Saudi Arabia. But tomorrow, we've got Night of the Champions.

That's going down at 1 o'clock Central. I'm sorry, 1 o'clock Eastern, noon central. Sammy Zane and Carrying Cross will hook it up there. Ria Ripley's involved in a street fight. Jacob Batu is working with Solo Soa for the U.S. title. We've got Jake Cargill and Oskah for the Queen of the Ring finale. We've got Cody Rhodes and Randy Orton for the King of the Ring finale.

And then for the undisputed championship, something a lot of people thought they'd never see again. It's CN Punk and John Cena. I would say one last time, but this isn't in Boston and isn't in Chicago. Maybe it happens again in the future. It's certainly happening tomorrow. And in a place,

seeing Punk never thought we would see him wrestle Saudi Arabia. What do you expect this weekend in Saudi Arabia from WWE, Eric? Wow, I have not been paying attention, to be honest, been a little busy. But as you just walked me through that card, I'll be watching, or at least taping it, vivoing it, whatever this is called now, recording it. There you go. I'll record it. Because I want to see that. I really, really, really want to see Cody and Orton. I think that's going to be a classic. It has the potential to be a real classic.

Can't wait for that. And obviously, Poncea, yeah, for a lot of reasons I'm looking forward to that one. It's awesome. Eric, I want to ask you about the real news today as we're recording. There was a report yesterday, I guess there was video on Thursday, of see and punk walking backstage somewhere in Saudi Arabia and it looks like he was approached by a young fan and he perhaps pushed that young fan away

and I know WWE seemingly I don't know how they felt about that but they had see and punk come out today as we've been recording at the press conference there in Saudi Arabia and basically issue an apology for the tweet that he put out six years ago. He was a mean tweet aimed at the Miz and he apologized to a fan in the crowd and the country of Saudi Arabia. A bit of a controversy about seeing punk in Saudi Arabia given prior tweets and prior positioning. I know you've been critical at different times of seeing punk. Do you have an opinion about this in 2025, Eric?

kind of respect him not kind of respect him for doing it that's it i respect him that's a that takes a lot good for him it does take a lot we'll see what happens tomorrow with him and john sena and saudi arabia i do want to get your take on the promo that he did talking about John Sina and C. M. Punk. They did I guess a modern version of the pipe bomb promo. Whenever somebody talks about a big promo

and wrestling, of course, they always wind up referring to the batch at the beach, 1996, with Hulk Cogan. But the pipe bomb from actually on this day, 14 years ago, July, June 27th, 2011, that's where Punk sat

on the platform, the stage there, and dropped the pipe bomb promo and this past weekend on USA we saw John Sina try to recreate that and I guess it racked up tens of millions of views we even saw John quote unquote break the fourth wall and say hello to Claudio Castignoli and Nick Nimeth and Matt Cardona what did you think of them trying to recreate the pipe bomb and and dig into some of this CM punk John Sina shared history I think the creative calculation is supported by the data that it was a great idea. The audience knows you're taking advantage of history and backstory and with a wink and a nod.

The audience likes that kind of stuff. It's a smart move, smart creative. And like I say, backed up based on the stats you just run off, backed up with pretty significant data to support the creative. well there's got to be a lot of significant data behind real american freestyle we know their debut show is just a couple of months away in cleveland ohio tickets are on sale now and uh i wanted to give you an opportunity to update everybody as we start to break today's episode of 83 weeks to a close what's the latest on real american freestyle that you can share with everybody eric uh there's not a lot i can share unfortunately but i can tell you that

there's going to be a lot of news come July 21st. So, you know, we're rolling out some of our social media promotions starting. You know, we've announced signings and things like that. But we're going to start rolling out specific social media campaigns, probably Tuesday of next week, start really building some interest. We're going to continue to build on promotion, the next couple of weeks, and we're going to blow it all out on July 21st. So a lot of stuff going on that I'm really excited about it.

I'm not doing, not like, you know, Carnival Clown, a wrestling promoter, overhyped, but we've made some significant progress that we're very excited to share. And things are going great. We're tickets are available, a Ticketmaster. We did a soft launch, I don't know, 10 days ago, maybe two weeks ago. make sure, you know, we've got a new website or make sure that everything's synced up and working. You can go to real American freestyle.com, see all the most recent news, if you will. You can purchase tickets there.

You can also go to Ticketmaster and buy tickets. But the real push is going to start July 21st, a lot of good stuff, very excited about it. We're even working on some of the details for our second show, which is even more exciting for a variety. of reasons. So every day I get out of bed. I sent my first email this morning about 515 and going at it until 6, 7, 8 o'clock at night. Every day we're making forward progress. Sometimes it's a couple inches. Sometimes it's a couple feet. We haven't had a mile yet. We're getting close to making some 100 yard gains here pretty quickly and it's only going to ramp up speed after that. So So it's really, I got to tell you, Conrad, I'm having more fun right now, just more fun working

on something than I have since early 90s, you know, Nitro. I walked out at Ted's office and he said, go do that. And once the shock wear off and I started doing it, it got to be really fun. It's kind of how I feel right now, feeling really fun, really excited about it. go check it out if you haven't already real american freestyle dot com and as we're winding down today's episode i do want to put a button on our conversation about canyon but first i want to remind everybody but hey we can help you save money at save with eric.com if you're like millions of americans and you're struggling with credit card debt and you're worried about taking on new debt

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at save with eric.com in mLS number 2129 equal housing lender save with Eric.com. Eric, I love talking about Canyon. I hope that we shared some fun stories and a lot of people learn some new things about him. When you think about his legacy, what do you think Chris Canyon's legacy in wrestling will be? Will it be ready to rumble? Will it be his DDP's friend? Will it be with the tragic end?

Will it be the innovative offense? Will it be with Mortis? What will it be? I think the wrestling fan base. the knowledgeable wrestling fan base recognize this really for his innovation as great of characters he was

as great a job as he did with Mortis as much fun as he was to watch with the the DDP thing that we just covered he will be best known and deservedly so and I think he would appreciate the most

the fact that he was such an innovator and he left a long impression on the business he's one of the few people that you know everybody leaves a little bit of something to the business we're slept a lot and i think that's probably as he's listening to this right now that's probably what makes him the happens i encourage everybody to go check out some more to stuff watch some of this canyon stuff i mean why not let's go find that thunder where he challenged judy bagwell on a forklift my god so many great moments for Canyon

I'm glad we got to spend some time with him today and I hope that if anybody listening to this is struggling with some of those same mental issues that plagued Chris hey man let's seek out the help and go talk to somebody and try to get better together there's a whole lot of people

out there who loved Canyon and I wish he knew that before it was too late know the people in your life who you care about who matter to you who are reported to you just let them know just tell them you know you never know what somebody's going through and i hope that you know you know listening to this that eric and i really love spending time with you every

week and talking about these old wrestling stories and our our little wrestling community we like to think it's pretty big but really in the scheme of things eric it's not that big and what an impact chris made on his brief time on earth here i mean his legacy and impact still felt today absolutely is and a lot of love for chris to this day for that reason stay tuned boys and girls hit the subscribe button tell your friends we'll be live next week right here on 83 weeks with eric bischoff hey hey it's conrad thompson here to tell you a little more about what ad free shows dot com is all about get early ad free access to more than a dozen of your favorite wrestling podcast every single week starting at just nine bucks that's less

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