83 Weeks with Eric Bischoff - Episode 387: WCW Video Games

Episode Date: August 14, 2025

On this episode of 83 Weeks, Eric and Conrad are joined by NITRO and BEYOND NITRO author Guy Evans to talk all about the business of WCW video games. Eric and Guy explain the behind the scene deals that brought us some of the best and worst gaming experiences of our lives. NOTE: Get 20% off all products at GUYEVANSBOOKS.COM when you use the promo code 83WEEKS TECHOVAS - Get 10% off at tecovas.com/83WEEKS when you sign up for email and texts. STOPBOX - Get firearm security redesigned and save 10% off @StopBoxUSA with code 83WEEKS at https://stopboxusa.com/83WEEKS  #stopboxpod TUSHY - Over 2 Million Butts Love TUSHY. Get 10% off Tushy with code 83WEEKS at HTTP://hellotushy.com/83WEEKS #tushypod CASH APP - Download Cash App Today: https://capl.onelink.me/vFut/j5ojws30 #CashAppPod *Referral Reward Disclaimer: As a Cash App partner, I may earn a commission when you sign up for a Cash App account. SAVE WITH ERIC  - Stop throwing money away by paying those high interest rates on your credit card. Roll them into one low monthly payment and on top of that, skip your next two house payments. Go to https://www.savewitheric.com  to learn more.  

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So everything was really well done, really efficient, and I would definitely recommend Save with Conrad to others. My name is Rajeeve. I'm in Sacramento, California, and I was able to get into my dream home with Save WithConrad.com. At all that's number 212-9-Equal housing lender. SavewithConrad.com. Hey, hey, it's Conrad Thompson, and you're listening to 83 weeks with their fish off Eric. What's going on, man? How are you? I'm good. Just, uh, just busy as hell. And, uh,

spinning place. Appreciate you joining us. Sorry, we've got some technical difficulties. Ladies and gentlemen, Mr. Guy Evans is with us. Guy, Guy, how are you, man? I'm doing great. Conrad. Great to be with you guys again. Thanks for, uh, the invite. Well, we're excited to be here with you. We're going to be talking about WCW video games and licensing we meant to get to this last week but there was so much news I wasn't sure that we could actually get there I do briefly want to touch on a couple of pieces of news with you Eric before we jump into our topic today I'm sure you have at least heard I don't know that you had a chance to see but as we're recording we're live on a Wednesday and just last night TMZ did a tribute for Hulk

Ogan Eric have you had a chance to see that yet I saw clips of it this morning actually I haven't sat down and watched the whole thing but I saw certain clips particularly those from Vince McMahon and what was your reaction what did you think overall I was really glad to hear it I think it was honest I think it was sincere meaning I think Vince shared his genuine feelings look there was a And I talked about this, you know, on our tribute show, short of a couple of days after he died, Hulk died. They had a very unique relationship and a complicated one. But Hulk really respected Vince.

And regardless of whatever issues they may not have had throughout their rather roller coaster ride of a relationship, it was nonetheless a close relationship. And I was appreciative of the comments that Vince made on social media shortly after Hulk passed. And I think overall was very happy with the comments that he made. You know, the one that stood out to me, and I think it was the most honest reaction that I've heard from almost anybody, is that, you know, Hulk said racist things, but he wasn't a racist. And I think if people really think about it, that probably applies to a lot of us at different times in our lives and in a different situation. So I, I, for one, was happy to see those comments and I don't want to say impressed, but for lack of a better term, yeah, impressed.

It was pretty rare that we got to see a public sighting of Vince McMahon. I'm not here to say that he hasn't appeared at basketball games or things like that. But the idea that he sat down for an interview, I mean, I don't think any of that has happened for him in a long, long time. I think it's only fitting, Eric,

that if he's going to break some sort of policy, if he had such a policy that he did it for his late friend, Terry Belaya. That was pretty neat events to do, I thought. Yeah, I did too. And I'm sure it was,

you know, Vince, you know, coming to the services. I'm sure that was not without, a certain amount of anxiety and probably wondering how he would be received and what people would think of that. But he did it nonetheless. And I think he did a great job. Look, people could say whatever they want because everybody's got their opinions and everybody

loves to hate on social media. You know, Vince has got his own issues and he's dealing with them however he's dealing with them. But no one can deny that the combination of Hulk Hogan and Vince McMahon has created the industry that so many people enjoy a great benefit from today and enjoy as consumers today. It started with those two men, and I don't think there would have been a Hulk Hogan without a Vince McMahon, and I don't think there would have been a W.W.E, as we see it today, without a Hul Kogan. So I think it was more than appropriate to hear from Vince both in his social media posts at the services, and obviously on the special last night. We got to talk about the big news this week from a business front, Eric.

I'm sure you saw the UFC is now exiting the pay-per-view business for a lot of people. This feels like the end of an era. We've learned that they're going to be exclusively on Paramount in 2026. So there are going to be CBS events, obviously a lot of CBS promotion for Paramount Plus and UFC being on Paramount Plus. They're describing it as a one point. 1 average annual value for seven years. So TCO was able to announce a $7.7 billion deal just about a week removed from WVE announcing their move to ESPN for 1.1.

The stock went crazy. I think it was up $22 that same day. So two big mega deals for TKO. But I am curious your take on what feels like the end of an era, pay-per-view, no more with UFC. Eric, what do you think? You know, I read a comment that Dana White made, and I think he said something, I'm paraphrasing it, obviously, that pay-per-view isn't necessarily dead, in Dana's opinion, if I read the quote correctly, but there are other ways to maximize and monetize your content. I think we'll probably continue to see pay-per-view events.

I don't think it's dead, but I think when you get to the level of UFC or WWE, and the volume, you know, just a sure number of large events that they have. The PLE format and a streaming format makes much more sense. It's going to be interesting to see how all of this shakes out. It's a bannard week for TKO, that's for certain. The other news that wrestling fans these days want to hear about, Eric, is Carrying Cross and Scarlett. It looks like their contracts came up just a few days ago. as we're recording, uh, and I know earlier today as we are sitting down on a

Wednesday afternoon, he was live on Ariel Hawani, the guy we know is carrying cross in WW land and he revealed that he did get a contract offer, but, but he was only given 24 hours to make a decision that was positioned like, you know, his offer was just for him. And once they got that under control, they would figure out what was next for Scarlett. And I guess that led to some frustration, but it looks like what a lot of people thought was a quote-unquote work, and I thought it might be a Brian Filman type thing like we saw years ago with the loose cannon. Maybe it's not. Have you had a chance to keep up with this story? And what do you make of it, heads or tails? I was literally reading the latest story and some of the comments

from the RL interview 20 minutes before I turned on my equipment here to do this podcast. I've always liked Carian Cross as a performer, as a talent, and I also like him as a person. We've gotten to know each other just a little bit, not close. A ton of respect for him in a lot of ways. I like you, in fact, you're the one that, you know, put that Brian Pillman kind of strategy in my head. And I got really excited about that because it would have been a great story. I'm disappointed. I'm disappointed for Carian, obviously.

I am for the wrestling fans who obviously had an appetite and wanted to see more of Gary. I'm hoping that it works itself out. I get a little uncomfortable when I see talent, I don't want to say burning bridges, but when you start talking about contract negotiations publicly, it doesn't really serve you all that well. It may feel good in the moment, and you may be releasing some, you know, frustration and maybe some resentment. And I understand that. I'm a fairly emotional person myself,

and I tend to say stupid shit sometimes. But, you know, his career isn't over. WWE is the most important place to be right now. It's the biggest opportunity, I should say, not most important, but the biggest opportunity out there. And if I was Carrion's agent, I would just advise them to, keep his conversations about his contract negotiations to himself

and go out and continue to prove why WWE made a mistake because sometimes they do. We've seen it in the past, haven't we? And I think if carrying it just does the right thing and keeps being carrying across and stays committed, stays focused, and goes out and makes some noise outside of WWE, he'll be back. But it'll be a lot easier for him to come back

if he wasn't, you know, spilling the beans on contract negotiations. It's just, it doesn't serve anybody. It is interesting. I'm seeing a lot of comparisons online to situations for the past. None of them are very complimentary. But I do, I sort of suggested when we were talking about this earlier in the week, that I feel like he got an offer and they were far apart on money. I only felt that way because Mike Johnson reported that he did get an offer early last week.

And then Karyan today in his interview with Ariel Hwani said, yeah, he got an offer he believes on Tuesday. But he was expected to have an answer by Wednesday. And I guess he wasn't happy with the number and needed more time to beat it up. And clearly, WWE felt like they had all the leverage. And as a result, it feels like we're in an impasse.

I do think eventually he winds up back in WWE or WWE adjacent, Eric, whether that's, you know, the GCW ID program or that's the TNA with Anthem. or if it's Triple Mania this weekend in Mexico, there's a lot of other stuff outside of the main roster of WWE, where if for whatever reason,

you know, I don't know what's going on, but I was kind of surprised based on hearing the chance and seeing the momentum. I mean, even his video from earlier this week has over 800,000 views. People are obviously interested. So it feels like it's an opportunity. It's a question of,

where is it an opportunity? Do you think he winds up in WWE or do you think he winds up somewhere else when it's all said and done? I mean, look, there's still a chance. This could be orchestrated. This could be part of, this could be, you know, the opening act of Act 1. Still very possible. I don't think anybody should jump off, you know, the cliff and with the idea in mind that this is absolutely a fact.

It certainly appears to be. And actually discussing contract negotiations takes it so much. further that it leads me to believe it probably is reality, but it also sets up opening active act one really well. And if there is any kind of a orchestration to this, I hate to use the word work. I just hate it. I would expect you to see it in either Mexico or TNA. I hope he ends up in TNA. TNA's got some shit going on. They're making good moves. Their audiences growing. I said it here a month or two ago. They're one major TV deal away from being the number two wrestling promotion in the country, in the world for that matter. And we've read

shortly after I made that comment that there's some discussions with A&E, there's some discussions with CW, while neither of those networks are necessarily a TNT or a TBS in terms of their reach and their scope, they're significant, and it's definitely a step in the right direction, certainly compared to what TNA has right now, right? You've got to actually be a digital sleuth to find them if you're just a casual fan. So I'd love to see that, but if I had to bet money, I'd bet we see them in TNA first. It'll be interesting to see what happens. I'm sure we'll talk about it.

and I can't wait for us to talk about that TNA deal. If I were a betting man, I would bet that they land on CW on Wednesday nights, live from the Performance Center. And I think they'll announce that sooner rather than later. But we'll see what happens. Today, our topic is WCW video games and licensing. And boy,

do we have an audience on YouTube right now. People are fired up for us to talk about the video games. Eric, what's your favorite WCW video game? What was it, WCWNWO? Revenge. There you go. Correct.

Just because it was really, it was like, wow, that's kind of like the brand split, although I didn't know the term brand split back when I was trying to figure out a way to give WCW one show and NWO another show. And that video game was kind of a digital

manifestation of that idea. So I guess that's why it's probably my favorite. Full disclosure, I've never played a video game in my life. I think I played Pong when it first came out. 172, wherever it was, when you could play it on your TV screen. It's like, bang, bing, yeah, that was the last video game I played in 1972.

So I don't have any firsthand knowledge of gameplay, but from a branding perspective, just the way it was promoted and the timing of it, that was a big one for us. Well, that's all we phoned a friend. We decided to give Guy Evans a shout. and we're going to break him in here on 83 weeks because before we talk about NWO revenge and we definitely want all of your video game questions we want to thank Tocovus you know anything anywhere worth going is worth going in good boots we want you to find your perfect pair with Tocovus and if you've ever wondered if you

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Go check them out. Takovus.com slash 83 weeks. Guy, you've done a lot of investigating into WCW. So I know you're well versed in the video game. and we know that there is a ton of video game fanfare about these wrestling games. It was sort of a golden era of gaming for a lot of people, but it didn't really start that way. I mean,

I think the first WCW game is probably not everybody's favorite. That was probably back in the Jim Hurd era. What can you tell us about the head start that the WWF had on video games and licensing and things like that, yeah? Well, I think similar to many other aspects of the business, which you guys have talked about on here, innumerable times, you know, this was another area where the WWF certainly had much more

of a footprint than WCW historically, which makes it even more interesting when you consider ultimately what happened and this perfect marriage between THQ, who were a video game developer and publisher who incidentally find themselves kind of in a similar situation to WCW just before the agreement was made that they were going to work together insofar as it had spent a couple of years cutting costs and doing everything they could to try to get back on track and turn a profit and eventually eeked out a profit of about $600,000 in the year of 1995, which, as we know, is when WCW turned a profit as well. And we'll get into that whole story. But, you know, it was very fortuitous, I think, for both parties that they kind of met up with each other at that particular

time. For full disclosure, I mean, similar to Eric, I must admit that my video game experience is is somewhat limited, perhaps not quite as limited, but, you know, WCWNW Revenge would have been sort of right in my wheelhouse at the time as someone who was watching the product. And that really represented, I suppose, to bring it back to the question, just such a giant leap forward, you know, for pro wrestling video games at that time, so much so that I think it spawned an entire new generation of fans. It gave them an entry point to get interested in the product and and gave them a way to, you know, enter this subculture of wrestling, which, again, I'm sure we'll talk about.

But, yes, the WWF, this was, again, certainly another area where, although the games, you know, even at the time and certainly in retrospect, very rudimentary, one-dimensional games that really, if you weren't a wrestling fan, you wouldn't find much value in. But that was another area where the WWF was certainly ahead. when you think about taking over licensing eric you know this is something we've talked a little bit about in the past but licensing had always been for wcd way behind the w f why do you what do you attribute that to more is it just the the brand identity of the company is it because

they had whole kogan is it something else it's all of the above i think a large part of it you know a name that doesn't everybody knows her name but she doesn't often get recognition for, you know, pivot points and big strategic decisions, but I think it goes back to Linda McMahon. If you read about Linda and her influence in the early days of WWF, Linda had, based on what I've read, I clearly wasn't there, but based on what I've read, Linda probably had more foresight in the value of intellectual property. and what that could mean for the professional wrestling business than anybody, including Vince. I think Linda, in a way, taught Vince the value of intellectual property and how to manage it and

how to monetize it, probably more than anybody. And, you know, you go back and you look at the infrastructure of WWE and where, or WWF at the time, and where the effort was placed, where the investment was made. And clearly the investment in licensing and merchandising, in my opinion, largely due to Linda McMahon's view of the world and where she saw the future, her vision, I think a lot of it started with Linda because she recognized the value of intellectual property. without intellectual property, you're not in the video game business. You're not really in the merchandising business. You're not really in a licensing business, not to any great extent, not in any meaningful way. You're where WCW was when I first got there.

Was there a licensing department? Sure. Was there a budget for it? Of course there was. But it was an afterthought. It was ancillary income and relatively insignificant. significant to that and there really was nobody unfortunately up until probably 97 98 that really understood licensing and merchandising to the extent that they needed to to really

generate revenue in a meaningful way i know that you had obviously been with the aWA before you tackled the new challenge of wcw and the a wa i think actually had action figures in advance in the WWF having action figures. We know that Vince is going to surround himself with sharp business people. And respectfully, people don't often talk about the end of the AWA run as if Vern was some innovator. They talk about him and paint him as a guy who was hanging on to a bygone era. Why did Vern embrace the Remco action figures?

Do you know? And then I don't know. You know, I never talked to Vern about it. So I don't have any first-hand knowledge to share with you. But I think, you know, looking back and knowing Vern and working with Vern, Vern was much more, in some respects, Vern was stubborn, stuck in the mud, like Bill Watts and so many of the promoters

that had so much success in the 60s and the 70s and the very early 80s until Vince decided to change the industry. When it came to the in-ring product, when it came to the way wrestling was presented, and protected. Vern was as stubborn and is stuck in a time warp as anybody I've ever known. But Vern was also very entrepreneurial. Vern saw opportunity that other times people didn't see.

Unfortunately, he didn't see it with his television product. But I'm going to give you another example. I remember specifically, this isn't necessarily tied to a video game, but this is an example of Vern's entrepreneurial kind of instinct, right? I remember Vern getting very excited about a concept called American Sumo. And Vern's idea was to find NFL football players or big guys, guys that are, you know, sizable that look like they could, you know, be effective in sumo. And he wanted to create the American Sumo League.

Now, I'm sure people listen to this. Let's scratch your heads and, you know, that's a dumb idea. I got news. I know a guy. Actually, I don't know him. I know of him who produced, he didn't call it American Sumo, but essentially Verne's idea. A couple of years ago in Philadelphia and sold out 15,000 seats. So, Vern had vision and ideas that were very outside of his tendencies towards the in-ring product.

So I'm not surprised that Vern saw that opportunity and pursued it because it's really consistent with what I knew of Vern as an entrepreneur. Let's talk about another fellow who maybe doesn't get enough credit. And I know there's a whole lot of people who are going to be frustrated with me bringing this up. But for all the criticism that Jim Hurd got, he did understand licensing. He got WCW their first shoe deal with Ruse. He got an action figures deal with the loob. He started to have conversations with Eminem Mars. He had the bendy figures with just toys.

He had board games. He had trading card deals. He had a video. game deal with FCI. He had a wrestling buddy style doll with toy max. He had London publishing handling the WCW magazine. He had big gulp cups in 7-11. So while Jim Hurd may not have been a natural for the wrestling business, Eric, he did implement some licensing stuff that didn't exist previously, right? He did. And he was very effective at it. Unfortunately, he didn't have the strength. He didn't have the audience and the brand power behind him because WCW was such a

fledgling organization. It was, you know, like I've said a million times, it was number two in the world, but it might as well have been number 222. And it was that way all the way up until 1995, 94-95. Jim Hurd had great vision, saw the opportunity, had the ability to execute on that vision and the opportunities, but unfortunately he just didn't have the audience or the brand behind him to really move the needle, so to speak. But the vision was there and the ability to execute on it was as well. Guy, have you, in all your investigative journalism around WCW, have you spent any time looking at any of the licensing deals that Jim heard put together?

I'm not sure that I have specifically, but just to echo something that Eric said a few minutes ago. I mean, you look at, for example, the year of 1994. If you were to look at the company's income statement for that year, you would see, and this is in, by the way, the most recent book that I just came out with Beyond Nitro, if people want to get the precise figures. But essentially, the total licensing revenue that was attributed to WCW was somewhere in the region of a quarter of a million dollars per year.

So not a significant part of the overall revenue that they were bringing in. Now, if you read the book, you'll see, you know, we can go into all kinds. of nuance as it relates to how much of that was truly being attributed to WCW as a result of its own activities, or was there the likely possibility some of that money was going elsewhere? You can find out the answer in the book. But I say all that to say that, you know, up until 95, 96, 97, 98, you know, all of those efforts that you're talking about, while I think still significant and while they should be recognized and talked about, obviously, you know, dwarf in comparison to what happened when

the company really caught fire, which, as I'm sure we're going to get into, happened at a very good time for both WCW and its video game partner. On hot summer days, I keep my makeup simple, dewy skin, a touch of highlighter in the corners of my eyes, and just enough to feel refreshed with outgoing fully glam. Thrive Cosmetics makes that easy. I swipe on their liquid lash extensions mascara, and instantly look more awake. It lasts all day without smudging, even in the heat, and comes off with just warm water. I love that their products are vegan, cruelty-free, and made with clean ingredients. Plus, every purchase supports communities in need. Knowing my go-to mascara also helps

others, that's beauty with purpose, and it's why Thrive is always in my summer bag. Maximize your look with minimal effort. Go to Thrivecosmetics.com slash beauty for an exclusive offer of 20% sent off your first order. That's Thrive Cosmetics, C-A-U-S-E-M-E-T-I-C-S dot com slash beauty. We want to thank Guy for taking time out of his day to join us here today, and I want to encourage you to go check out Guy Evansbooks.com where you can get 20% off any of the products there with 83 weeks as your promo code. Be sure to use promo code 83 weeks. The first W-C-W video game that I recall was the regular Nintendo version that came out in 1990 I think it was called WCW wrestling we had the road

warriors on it and their black classic shoulder pads and they had a lot of of WCW talent in it Rick Flair sting Lex Lugar Mike Rotundo the Road Warriors Dr. Death Kevin Sullivan Ricky the Dragon Steamboat a Rick Steiner Eddie Gilbert Michael P.S. Hayes and the final opponent was a masked wrestler named WCW Master maybe this is before we knew we were going with the bad idea no now. as the black scorpion. But what's interesting is this is actually a Japanese game that featured a lot of all Japan and new Japan talent

that they're just going to switch out. Like, as I understand it, Lex Lugar replaced Antonio Inoki and Rick Flair replaced Giant Baba and will you get the idea? I mean, even like Cruiser Brody was replaced by Ricky Steamboat. So this isn't really a WCW game. It's, hey, we're going to put WCW characters in another game. But it's better than nothing. You know, the WWF had been around for a while and Jim Hurd got them in the game,

literally with that game. But I think what's maybe become more of a cult favorite guy, and you may have seen some of this, was the Game Boy game called WCW, the main event. This has become a bit of a collector's item. I don't know that that's even on your radar, Eric, but that game right now is on eBay for $799. For $800,

you can get the old Game Boy game from WCW. now this game didn't come out until well some of the talent wasn't even there anymore like the Steiner brothers by the time this game came out they were actually wrestling for the WWF I think this February of 94 so this would have been very early on but I imagine some of that stuff was already in motion with FCI I think that was a Jim heard deal were you hands on at all do you remember Garrett ever playing the main event on game boy Eric no no Garrett didn't get it's like me. He didn't really get into video games. I don't think he ever really has. He certainly played them, and he's far more familiar than I am. But, you know, as a kid growing up, that just wasn't really what he was into. So I don't remember him playing it, but I do, you know, one of the cool thing. I was just in Pittsburgh for the Steel City Comic-Con, which, by the way, shout out to everybody associated with Steel City Comic-Con. I've been to several of the Comacons around the country and in Canada. And this one was so incredible.

incredibly well run. I think it ran like a Rolex, Conrad. You would appreciate it, given your affinity towards Rolexes. But this thing ran so smoothly and flawlessly that it was actually a lot of fun. And one of the things that people bring to these, you know, conventions or in this case, the Steel City Comic Con, is they bring certain memorabilia or collectibles. And I'm seeing more and more and more video games. that I'm being asked to autograph than just about anything else really any other single item other than probably well action figures people like to have those side because they're some of them are collector's item I'm seeing a lot more games and I've seen that one in the past as well guy what do you think of the these two early iterations of WCW video games the first Nintendo game the first game boy game I think you and I are a similar age I think a lot of our people on our live chat today they are too they grew up with sort of nintendo being like the first system kids in their neighborhood were really talking about

and going crazy about did you have friends who played either the nintendo game or the game boy game i have to confess in my case um you know it was a little bit later with the t hq game specifically but in investigating you know this whole issue and writing about it at length uh in the new book and talking about the history as we are here um what i really try to do is lean on people who are experts in this field, and I really learned a lot about this whole evolution that we're talking about. And I think the general sense that I think, you know, people who live through it will know and people who didn't can sort of take away from this discussion is that, you know, prior to the golden age of wrestling video games, which you mentioned earlier,

these games, while popular, you know, with wrestling fans and, of course, you know, sort of small steps forward in the general evolution of the medium, you know, were such that they featured a relatively small number of players. The available sort of move sets and options were very limited compared to what we saw later. And of course, they were 2D, two-dimensional games, which made, you know, that giant step forward to 3D gaming, which happened towards the end of the 90s, towards the end of the decade, ever more impressive. And as you were talking about that and I'm talking about some of those early efforts, Conrad, I wanted to mention what I think is probably sort of the Holy Grail for people who are really interested in WCW video games.

And that is a discovery that was made. I believe the person's name, it's on YouTube, Stephen Reese, I believe, is the person who actually made this discovery back in 2019. And that is a game that was produced right at the beginning of terms. of starting what became WCW. The game is called UWC, which is, people have surmised rightly, stands for Universal Wrestling Corporation, which is the original legal name of WCW effectively before it became WCW. And, you know, there's sort of scarce details about the game, but if you type in Stephen

Reese, UWC, you'll see that actually he got his hands on sort of a one-of-one beta version of this game that never came out, but featured, you know, some of the key WCW performers from that time, the stings, the flares, the road warriors, and so forth. And so if you, you know, enjoy your history of wrestling video games and haven't heard of that one, it's because, like I said, it never came out, but you can go into YouTube and find out a lot of interesting stuff about that. So I wanted to throw that in as well. If you're on YouTube and you want to check that out, the old game footage, you can just search for unreleased NES game, UWC, for the Nintendo and there's a full breakdown for Mr. Reese on this game and it is sort of interesting

to see what it looked like and as a reminder you know that game that came out in 94 we're talking about the uh the game boy game the roster was still locked in 92 so it does feel like these are just old licensing deals that they had held over uh it's not like these games were released and WCW made any attempt that we know of to change it it does feel like hey if that guy's not been on our roster for a while we would have the ability to change it unless it was an older contract and we're just trying to let it, you know, expire. I do want to talk about when we turn the corner because these games, while they're generally negatively received, we're talking about the main event.

The critical acclaim for this was not good. It was a negative review and it said something like the fights themselves look weak, the large cartoony sprites lumber towards each other with board spectators behind them. The fights sound weak too with thin hit effects, sort of the same thing for the super nintendo version game pro gave it a negative review they were critical their stiff animation and their mediocre gameplay they even got like two out of five on some other reviews so these are not well received which doesn't really support more licensing business i mean if you've got a game that's not selling well and it's being critically bashed

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Tomrat, before you jump ahead. had got to give credit where credit is you that might have been the smoothest transition into a read that we have ever heard on 83 weeks i just got to give you props brother that was smoothest it was so smooth silver it took him a few seconds to catch up uh chaos theory is with us here live hey guys i don't know if you know this or not but guy's book and maybe silver has a graphic for the book it's called beyond nitro that means the television show nitro guy's book is not about the video game named nitro we're talking this is a business podcast by in large guy has said he doesn't play video games eric has said he doesn't play video games

we're not going to be able to break down what your favorite eight bit animation is on the show we're going to talk about how these games were successful or how they weren't successful and how they added to the bottom line or they took away opportunities from wcw we're having a high level business conversation about WCW video games and licensing. If you're looking for us to break out controllers on the Super Nintendo and play for you live, I hate to disappoint, but we're not going to be doing that today. So I see some people saying, how did a guy write a book about a game he didn't play? The book is about the program on television called Nitro.

The video game Nitro was based also on the television show Nitro. So beyond Nitro is about what happened to. in WCW. If you've not read Guy's book, you're missing out. I want to give it another plug. Use the promo code 83 weeks. Eric and I believe it is the definitive guide for what really happened in WCW. There's the first book

called Nitro and the sequel called Beyond Nitro. Go pick them both up right now. Save yourself some cash at 20% off, but you're going to see details that have never existed anywhere else. And lots of other people are spouting his data and his research

off. We've got the actual source here who sourced all that material. Eric, am I speaking out of term? Guy's done the heavy lifting that a lot of other journalists in this space have ignored for decades. No, not only, I don't think you can overstate the impact that guys' book had on the truth about what happened with Nitrope, because for 20, 25 years, the narrative has been generated by, in part, WWE, because they like to recreate history. to their own liking. And then, you know, parasites like Dave Meltzer,

who do know research, really don't study shit, talk a lot about how much they know, but in fact, know very, very little. And Guy's book has probably done more to really educate the audience who's interested on the real story behind Nitro. And particularly with Beyond Nitro, him. He brought receipts. He brought interviews from people that were part of Turner Finance.

Not WCW. They didn't work for me. They worked for essentially Vicki Miller and Turner Finance. And in it, in that book, you'll see for yourself the things that I had been talking about for years that everybody thought I was covering my ass or making excuses or fading the heat to somebody else. There's just facts. And I really hope that Dave Meltzer, who likes to talk about how much he studies, I hope he takes time to read that book because he'll learn a lot. And for those of you who don't live on the Internet and live off of the Internet wrestling community's narrative, which is nothing but garbage, you'll learn a lot. Not only about WCW and Nitro and what happened, but it gives you a pretty good idea of how the world of business really operates. So I owe you guy a lot.

He's probably done more to not reshape the narrative, but to really educate the audience on facts and information as opposed to hyperbole and bullshit. It's for you, Larry. I appreciate that. Hey, I do want to ask, you know, guy, when you start really digging in to the business of WCW, Eric has talked about this a lot on the program. that for a pitch person on Madison Avenue to be able to to reach out to in their briefcase and pull out a picture of Hulk Hogan, it developed some sort of commonality. And we saw this same sort of thing echoed with his passing that perhaps fans were familiar with the WWF, maybe they weren't with WCW, but at a point in time, and this sounds crazy

with the benefit of hindsight, but this is true at the time, Hulk Hogan had more brand recognition than the actual WWF initials. And if you had Hulk Hogan endorsing your product, that went a long way. Do you pair it what Eric has said that the Hulk Hogan opportunity, when he comes in the WCW, yes, it helped ratings, yes, it helped merch, but licensing may have been the thing that was most affected. Yeah, so let's connect this to the topic of video games, because as you were saying that, it reminded me of many conversations I had

with former THQ employees and video game executives. Who was the person, do you think, that they mentioned when they talked about the WCW opportunity? The first wrestler that came out of their mouth was Hulk Hogan, right? When you would ask them, tell me about these WCW games. Tell me about the business behind them. They'd say, well, you know, I'll never forget going to a show and meeting Hulk Hogan. And, you know, they would occasionally mention people like Randy Savage and wrestlers of that ilk. But without fail, the first person was always Hulk Hogan.

And, you know, there was a very prominent executive with THQ, which, of course, were the publisher behind the WCWNW Revenge and WCWNW World Tour, among other games. Eventually they got the WWF license. And what she told me is that prior to making the deal with WCW, you know, one of the things that they were doing was engaging in trend spotting. So they were trying to evaluate what properties do we think are out there currently that are going to experience, you know, a significant growth in popularity. And like I said, whether or not, you know, that's someone sort of retrospectively trying to make things sound more prepared than they were. I don't know. But for what it's worth, she said that WCW was something that, you know, in 1995 was on their radar as a result of the whole Kogan acquisition the year before, as a result of Nitro-Stars. and all of the increased promotion and hype and hoopla behind that.

And, you know, according to her, they could sort of foresee this being a property that would be on the rise in the future. So, yeah, I suppose if you didn't live through it, if you didn't have sort of a first-hand awareness for it, it's hard to draw an analogy between the sheer name value of Hulk Hogan versus any wrestler today. We're just talking about completely different universes. And I'll just end with this very quickly as well.

Eric has mentioned on numerous occasions in the past a guy by the name of Joe Yuver who was a very pivotal executive within that turn of corporation and went on to become, you know, as Eric has talked about, was and maintained a presence as one of the premier people in the world of advertising. And I remember when I interviewed him and we were talking about this whole time period

and he said, you know, when Hulk Hogan turned bad and Hulk Hogan went to the dark side and he was in all black. He said that really resonated with a lot of people who couldn't get their teeth necessarily into some of the content and some of the programming and some of the storylines, but that was something that everyone understood the significance of. What do you mean, Hulk Hogan, the All-American, you know, ultimate baby face is turned to the dark side after all this time. So in many ways, you know, although if you look at it from a strictly programming standpoint,

would say, okay, you know, Hulk Hogan's matches in the ring. If you've seen one of them, arguably, you've probably seen most of them. His impact, you know, far, far exceeded that where it really mattered, you know, in the bottom line for WCW. Eric, we know that you're going to finally get your hands on WCW. You're going to bring in Hulk Hogan in 1994. Very quickly, you have a deal put together with the original San Francisco toy makers. They're going to make these giant WCWCW.

action figures. I think that company was actually started by former Galube executives. But these first version of the WCW action figures on your watch are reminiscent of the old LJN figures we saw in the WWF. But that feels like the first of many licensing deals because once Nitro launches in the fall of 95, by early 96, that's when you announced the THQ deal. How can, what do you remember about how the THU deal came together for you guys in WCWR? Well, it would have come through Sharon Sadello more than likely. Possibly it may have come in through Mike Weber. Mike worked

for Sharon. She was the VP and I think Mike was a director, but they worked very closely together on those deals. The thing that I remember, because I didn't get involved in the negotiation, I really wasn't hands-on in any of the licensing deals. Clearly, I had approval over some aspects of it when it came to images and which wrestlers we use and things like that I had to sign off on. But in terms of negotiating the deals, I had no visibility into that. What I do remember, though, is a lot of excitement about THQ because we had been struggling. You know, again, we did, much like Jim Hurd, when I was,

was running WCW early 92, 93, or 93, early 94, before we got Hulk Hogan, we couldn't get arrested at a licensing convention. I mean, just nobody paid attention to us. THQ was like one of those opportunities that was, gosh, maybe someday we could get here, because it represented growth and it represented the fact that we were building our license strength and that there was potential growth in that area. And THQ is pivotal to that. Yeah, THQ is where it really starts to become big business. It's going to hit the business wire.

And the headline is THQ and Turner Incadiel to bring World Championship Wrestling to next generation video game systems. So they're talking about Sony PlayStation, Sega Saturn, and the PC CD-ROM. I got a feeling almost everyone who's why. watching us live here on YouTube. They played on the Sony PlayStation. I know I did. I had a friend who had a Sega Saturn. I had friends who were computer gamers, but I feel like the PlayStation was the console of choice by and large for most characters who were playing at that era. The games were due in 1997, according to this press release that comes out in January of 96,

and they're listing, of course, front and center, Hulk Hogan, macho man Randy Savage, Rick Flair, Sting, Lex Lugar, from a marketing standpoint, those are all your WCWIP, Eric. I mean, when you start to rattle off all the different characters, it does feel like an opportunity because most video games, I would imagine, they're not going to have as much name value with the individual characters. Maybe there's one central figure and the whole thing's built around him.

But in this particular case, and you can use all of those, it does feel like a big deal for WCW, especially with their new video game or their new television program lined up on Nitro, but Eric, were the talent excited about this? I say that kind of almost tongue in cheek. I imagine that it's got to be a kick for some of these guys to say, hey, I've got my first action figure. I'm in my first video game with the excitement you're talking about.

How much of that is amongst the boys like, hey, we're going to have a game on PlayStation? That feels like a big deal. that was like the prevailing attitude towards it again it represented growth it represented success talent was reaching a level within their industry that they hadn't many of them hadn't experienced before so it was no doubt validation uh in terms of who they were and where they were in the food chain to be able to have an action figure and it's the truth to this day you know you see you know young wrestlers young performers you know they get their first action figure they're they're on Twitter, you know, they're on Instagram.

They're excited about it. So I think it's still true. It just represents validation. Now, they weren't as excited about it as they were in WWF, because at WWF, talent was paid a percentage of royalties. It was a big part of their check. In WCW, the contracts were structured much differently. And while there was some revenue, there were some royalties associated with licensing,

it paled in comparison to what you could get if you were in WWF at the time and you were featured prominently in a video game. So from an ego perspective, I don't know if ego is the right word, but for lack of a better one, you know, from an ego point of view, of course everybody was excited. Again, validation. But in WWF, it was all of that. You got all that validation and a check. So it was a different kind of energy.

Of course, WCW, the Nitro video game is a THQ release. It's going to come out in January of 1998 and left to right. You've got Sting looking like the crow. You've got Hulk Hogan with the double bicep as Hollywood Hogan. Then you've got the giant on the right. From a marketing perspective, Eric, you know, is this completely up to Turner Home Entertainment? Is it up to THQ? How do they decide who goes on the cover, Eric?

They come to me and we talk. And, you know, we try to look into the future. Like, if I know a game is coming out, because it takes a while to develop, produce, and distribute a game. I don't remember what the lead time was, but I think eight months to a year is probably ballpark at the very least. So when the subject comes up, okay, we've got a deal. We're going to produce this game. Who should we include? So you kind of got to go through your contracts and decide, okay, who do I know for sure?

Contractually is going to be here two years from now because you want to make sure if you can that those people featured in the video game are still a part of your active television show, right? Your current show. So you kind of, your first thing you do is you go through a checklist, okay? We know who's popular. Let's check the contract. Are we up for renegotiation soon? Is this somebody that we really want to resign?

or can afford, in some cases, to resign. So you go through that process. And then it's just a matter of, you know, creative forecasting. Who do we think is going to be the most viable characters on television a year from now? And that's how you make your selection. And it's collaborative. It's not, I don't get, I didn't make all the decisions, neither to Sharon Sadella or Mike Weber. It was very collaborative.

But at the end of it all, that was our call. I guess I got my games out of order. In my head, I thought Nitro came out first, but I'm seeing now it was actually WCW versus the world. That actually came out first. That was early 97 before we actually see the Nitro game. But I got to say, I'm kind of like you, you know,

I think that most of our listeners who are listening to this, they think of those Nintendo 64 games with the greatest fondness. And we've got some live chats that are coming in here now, I'm going to ask you some of these questions, Eric. I'm not know that you'll know all the answers to these, but we'll hit some. Matt Fisher wants to know, hello, my question is simple. Why was Rick Flair not in WCWNWO revenge until Eric officiates my wedding? Make mine 83 weeks.

Hey, what do you remember about that? Was that during the contract dispute, do you think? Quite possibly. I couldn't tell you definitively, yes or no. But if he was not included, it was released in October of 98 so I think that's probably the time because I think he returned in September of 98 in Greenville I think the timing is probably based on they weren't sure if contractually he'd even be there right and just to jump in real quick sorry to cut you off

Eric they and this is covered in the in the book chapter they were working on that game until the 17th of August that was actually the last day they were working the game so Eric uh excuse me Rick comes back September 14th, right? So I think, you know, that would be, that would be our answer for sure, the dispute that was going on in my view. Now, that makes sense. That absolutely makes sense. And like I said, Guy has the receipts. He's got the dates. He's got the quotes. He's got the interviews. So I'm going with, I'm going with Guy. Well, you need to go with Guy too. We want to encourage you to go check out his books at guy Evansbooks.com. Be sure to use that promo

code 83 weeks. You'll get 20% off. Doom rules us with us here live. And he says, we're Sting and Hogan still feuding in 98 and 99, they were. I wondered about Revenge's opening cinematic, which features Hogan and Wolfpack Sting facing off. Also, what was up with the reference to Big Trouble and Little China at the start? I know you probably don't remember these particulars, Eric, but who would have been, besides Mike Weber, who I know was working for marketing for WCW at the time, who else would have been involved in some of these details with regard to the video game?

Was there someone on your staff who oversaw it? No, it was really Mike Weber and Sharon Sadello, probably more Mike than Sharon. And Mike would just interface with whoever he needed to interface with, whether it was me for approval or Kevin Sullivan or whoever was, you know, kind of taking lead on creative at the time to see where we're going. And when there was new ideas, when there was something that they wanted to do that was outside of, I guess, standard operating procedure for video games, they would come to us and say, hey, we've got an idea.

We'd like to do this. How do you feel about it? And again, we'd collaborate. I didn't try to micromanage the process because I didn't know enough about it to micromanage it. Right. My approach to the development of the video games and ideas that people had for the video game was, you know, do no harm. You know, first do no harm, kind of like a doctor. Don't fuck anything up for me if you can help it in terms of the image of the character or the brain.

And then after that, I pretty much let the people that understood how to develop a good game, develop a good game. The worst thing you could, the worst thing I can do is to insert myself into a process I don't fully understand because you end up slowing it down and people end up compromising because of you. And oftentimes those compromises are missed opportunities. So I took a little bit of a macro approach to do the development of the games as long. as it was consistent. The characters were consistent and the gameplay was consistent with the brand. Do you remember when Sharon Sadella left WCW? She was still there when I came back to buy it in 2000. So she was there until the bitter end, do you think?

Yeah, and I remember that because my first meeting actually was Brian Bedal and I came to Turner headquarters and we had a Wall Street conference call. You know, we had all the leading bankers and reporters and everybody from Wall Street that reports on financial stuff. And we had a conference call announcing the sale. And I remember sitting across, sitting next to Brian, sitting across the room from Sharon. And I just, I could read her body language like from three miles away, right? She was like, oh, I can't believe he's back. That's why I know she was there until the end.

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The video game starts rolling for WCW around the same time that the Monday night wars do. I don't think that's by accident as the audience. expands so does the appetite for licensing guy is that what you saw as well absolutely and i think one point to that end that i really want to emphasize because i know there's a huge sentiment behind this as evidenced by so many people i've heard from over the years since both of these books came out is once again how important these games were in being a bridge from perhaps someone who was a wrestling fan to another person of the same age sort of a peer who maybe had some awareness of what was going on,

but this was just such an accessible way to get interested in the product, because if you became a fan of the games, naturally, that's going to create a compulsion to tune in and see the characters come to life, so to speak. And, you know, the N64 games in particular, I think, were just so important when it comes to that,

not only in the United States, but also internationally as well. And a lot of that had to do with, once again, use the word fortuitous a couple of times. One of the things that just worked out better than anyone could have imagined is the fact that THQ partnered with this group of brilliant developers from Japan, Aki Corporation, formerly known as the Man Breeze, which is one of the strangest monikas for a company that I've ever heard of.

But by the time we get to this time period that we're talking about, Aki Corporation are the people who developed these games and became so well known in the video game community for that work to the extent where even to this day there are efforts to sort of replicate some of the innovations that they brought forth with their sort of ground breaking engine which is sort of the underlying principles and rules which govern how the games played and there's a project out there UPW, ultra-pro wrestling that people can look into, which I believe is coming to market shortly. I would talk about it a little bit in the book, really inspired by the feel and the nature of those games. So yes, you're absolutely right. The timing couldn't have been better. It happened really when WCW was at its peak in terms of viewership, and they were able to come out with these just extremely intuitive, highly playable games,

which really acted as an entry point for anyone who was interested in getting involved with wrestling or with watching wrestling. And I should also say just in closing as well on this particular point, and Conrad, you'll know this, as will most people listening to this who are interested. I suspect that one of the reasons why a lot of the content from this time is so indelible and so memorable and has stuck with people for such a long period of time, is sort of the nature by which people digested with and got involved with the product back then. And what I mean by that is, let's think about those N64 wrestling titles, okay?

Were these games being played primarily in isolation? I mean, of course, that was happening. People were playing them on their own. But in large part, if you were in sort of that teenage adolescent age group, you were playing the games on the weekends with your friends, and you're having all night, all night, you know, title tournaments and battle royals. And of course, with the N64, you could plug in four controllers at the time, which was a huge innovation and a huge step forward. And so there's so many memories that I think people have that are involved with that.

And then, of course, subsequently watching the programs as well, that is kind of hard, you know, to see in the future by virtue of the way that people sort of engage with wrestling and by proxy the wrestling video games today, sort of a comparable experience. because it was just it was it was so communal it was with your friends it was with your family and um i think that's something that the people i know from all of the emails that i've got over the years people you know really cherish those times and associate a lot of positive memories with those n64 games shout out to p j taints who's with us here live and he says i still have my 64 and play mayhem in wcd versus n w o with friends i think you're on to something guy i mean that resonated with me when you wrote about that in your book saying that friends would have sleepovers and they would just have a spend the night party as we said here in the

south we would certainly play that game to death and i do think you know as as nice or fun as it was to see wrestling get hot and then be represented on the playstation i do think it went to the next level for nintendo 64 that was always my experience at least and i'm seeing a lot of that in the live chat speaking of live chat let's do a few of those aot tv productions is with us here live as always appreciate you hanging out with us and he says our first wrestling game was wcw mayhem 1999 the intro with goldberg is etched in my mind and respectfully i think you missed out on some great stuff that is not my favorite game uh guy what can you tell us about wcw mayhem well this uh brings us on to an interesting point which i'd like to ask eric about um we've talked about it

Eric and I, in the past when I was doing the first book, and I know he's mentioned it on this podcast before, but I think for the benefit of people listening, I'd like to ask him in a second about EA, the relationship between WCW and EA and how that came about. But what I will say to answer your question first, though, Conrad, when I think about that delineation between those THQ games and then EA with WCW mayhem, WCW backstage assault, one of the key differences which I think even if you don't if you're not an expert on video games you can still appreciate is the fact that those THQ N64 games were being produced before motion capture and if you're the EA that was what did you always see when you know you would read about an upcoming EA football game basketball game whatever the case may be you'd always see these pictures of the athletes wearing the the the apparatus and the equipment and doing the motion capture stuff, that's what EA was known for. In the case of THQ, they were actually, believe it or not,

basing the animations from the game on VHS tape footage. So they were looking at the footage of a suplex or reversal or whatever the case may be, and an artist was hand-drawing that in. And again, could I break down to you exactly mathematically how video games are made? No, I couldn't. That's why I quote people in the book who can. But what I can appreciate is that the craftsmanship and the attention to detail and the love that came through in those games for professional wrestling and for the product at that time. And again, I think that's another contributing factor as to why those games are remembered so fondly.

And you would think with EA, with their high-tech sort of approach, the games would be received in a much more positive way. But of course, as we know, that's not what happened. But that brings me on, if I could, just to throw this to Eric, and again, as I said, we've talked about this in the past, but for the people listening, Eric, because I know a lot of people are interested in that transition, where all of a sudden, you know, the THQ games are doing really well, and then the news comes out that they've lost the license, and WCW are going with EA, which, of course, was like the big player in the sports game space. Could you sort of break down for the listeners how you remember that sequence of events going?

I can, to a large degree, and I can give you five million reasons. reasons why we made that decision. Because the CEO of EA, I think it was the CEO of the president at that time, came to an event and presented me with a really cool EA sports jacket. And in fact, similarly, a facsimile $5 million check representing the advanced against royalties, which was a real high watermark for WCW. I'm sure WWE had done many deals at that level. But again, their licensing and merchandising division was so much more mature than ours.

And they had had so many years of success previous to us finally cracking through and getting a company like EA sports interested in us. It was not a – I mean, I can give you five million reasons in advance why they did it or why we did it, but it wasn't, it wasn't an easy decision. There were a lot of people that were very committed to THQ. THQ jumped into bed with us at a fairly risky time, business-wise. They saw value, they saw growth, obviously opportunity with Hulk and all that. But still, we were kind of somewhat emerging brand at that time.

And to leave that opportunity and make that big jump, was not without debate internally, but the decision, and it was one that I made, that's why I remember the debate, was not just the $5 million advance, which was, for me, mind-boggling at the time. We'd be lucky to get $100,000 advances in some cases, or people would be high-fiving themselves and looking for a Christmas bonus over a $50,000 advance. So a $5 million advance, represented to me, at least, that our business has reached an entirely new level. But it wasn't easy. There was some debate.

There were some unhappy people, particularly at T.HQ. But it was also the technology and the potential for growth in the business that the technology that E.A. Sports had, in addition to all of their other big titles, you know, you are who you hang with. so speak, in life and in business. And for WCW to be in business with EA Sports, even without that big advance, still represented growth. So it was a business decision. It wasn't because of anything T.HU did or didn't do.

It was because EA Sports represented significant growth in terms of technology and advancement in the gameplay, as well as just their catalog and their marketing and promotion. But it was a tough decision. As a wrestling fan, let me just say, Eric, it sucked. We like the THQ games much better. But I get why. I want to advocate for you here, Eric, when you talked about how you are who you hang

with sort of thing, EA was producing at that time, the Madden game, which is number one. NBA Live, they had the MLB license, they had soccer, they had Knockout Kings with Muhammad Ali on there, they had hockey, they had Tiger Woods golf, they had college football. So make no mistake, this is a much bigger brand and you're going to get to rub shoulders

and be featured with all these other licenses. If I was in your seat, Eric, I too would feel like, hey, I can trust the WCWIP with these guys. If it's good enough for the NFL and the NBA, in Major League Baseball and NASCAR and and it's going to be good enough for WCW. I'm curious when you did all your research, is it fair to say that the THQ game sold better than the EA game, in your opinion, guy?

I mean, do you have the data on that? Yeah, I think that's, there's a massive chasm between the two. I mean, we'll take revenge that we've referenced several times today. That game, according to the most recent reports that we have. have sold 1.88 million copies, and I believe up until a certain point in time, it was the highest selling game ever on the N64 made by a third party. So just to put that into context and to kind of tie it together based on what you were just saying that, as you said, EA had this EA sports had this already impressive portfolio of titles, and they were very distributed

in terms of the different sports that they were involved in. The WCW games, the THQ became so successful that, as per THQ's own financial disclosures, in the first quarter of 1998, WCW titles accounted for 88% of their revenue. So nearly 90% of their revenue was from the wrestling games, right? Which certainly I don't think anyone anticipated prior to. But I think you made a really good case there in terms of, yes, in retrospect, we can look back. And obviously, the EA games had not remembered anywhere near as fond of. as those other games, but given the relative position of each company at the time

and the financial incentives that Eric talked about, Conrad, I think you made a good case that. AOTV production says, I remember EA saying 1999 was the year of the cyber athlete, and lots of people, including EOP 3035, want to talk about the jump from THQ and the WCW breakup. I even found in our research guy, you mentioned 1998, even in 97. the hq is saying that wcw games accounted for 39% of their total company revenue across the calendar year i mean it's clear that these guys have put for lack of a better word all their baskets i mean all their eggs into the basket of wcw like they are as invested in this game

as they possibly can be and that's probably the reason we love the game so much it was so important to them and respectfully EA's got mad money they've got college football money they've got all the other licenses so on some level it's it's just another license for them now eric i know that's not necessarily something that you're going to be really invested in because do you want to guess when that game was released eric do you remember wcw mayhem for being released do you remember when no how about september 23rd 1999 that was after i was sent home that's just a couple of weeks after you come so i'm sure the last thing you're worried about is how's the video game doing You know, like you guys, you didn't grasp my mind.

I was more concerned with what the trout were hitting on that particular day based on the grasshopper population. So trout low grasshoppers. And I was fly fishing in Wyoming when that game came out. So now it was the farthest thing from my mind. Eric, did you know, I mean, I feel like I brought up a good point earlier. And he talks about this in his book. And he even talked with our friend Evan Husney from Dark Side of the Ring, who we both think a lot of and does a great job with that program. But there was a lot of crossover where video game fans just enjoyed the video game.

And it was so fun, they would start watching the program. And Eric, you and I have heard this whenever we go, you know, to do a live show or we have some sort of a convention or whatnot, I will routinely hear from folks who say, man, I hadn't watched wrestling in years. And then I started listening to you and Eric and now I'm back in. I watched Smackdown last night. Did you know that phenomenon existed with the video game back in? Or are you only learning that after the fact?

I think the truth is I really kind of figured it out after the fact. You know, it's a little bit like we were talking about the Unreal series for WWE and the debate about it. And my position was I would be fully supportive of it. I would do it if somebody came to me if I was running a wrestling company now and say, hey, I've got this idea. What if we do this? I would jump in with both feet, possibly because what I've learned subsequent to this, which is anyway, whether it's another television program, a video game, a movie, a kind of spit-off television series, animation project, even music.

Anything that you can produce, distribute, and get the audience to engage with is added value to the brand. You're going to find people that are going to come across your brand that might otherwise not have watched it. And they're going to participate. They're going to engage differently or in addition to other ways that they engage. All of that just continues to bring people

and attract audience to your core business. It is interesting. You know, once you make the EA deal and you sort of laid out why and how it happened, that came with a nice jacket and a $5 million check. The THQ opportunity gets bigger because, well, the WWF's contract with a claim was expiring. THQ,

who had a lot of great knowledge about how to market to wrestling fans now. And, well, a big portion of their revenue was based on a wrestling game. They went to the WWF and the result is some of the most sought after and celebrated video games in history. THQ just had it dialed in. I'm curious, Eric, were there any, was there anybody as you're having that debate about should

we leave THU and take the guarantee from EA? I know ultimately it was your decision, but were you consulting with any gamers or was it strictly a business decision? Do you recall if there was anyone on the inner circle who played the game at all? No, you know, I think everybody on our, everybody on my staff kind of fell into the same bucket I did, uh, and just really didn't have a lot of, uh, first hand knowledge of gameplay. or the games themselves in some cases their kids did you know i'm sure you know mike weber had kids who were into video games but mike himself probably had no more familiarity and spent

probably didn't spend any more time playing games than i did well i mean it obviously worked out guy i mean we know that t hQ gets the w w f license they're going to start printing money with those games in a weird way eric may have accidentally done t hq favor because they wound up getting the bigger opportunity with the WWE. But it's interesting to think without EA approaching with the $5 million check, it could have changed everything, right, Guy? That's right. And I know in speaking to many former THQ employees,

they really viewed that moment as almost an existential crisis for them as a company because according to their sort of company law, back when they entered into the agreement initially with WCW, the recollections of THQ executives is such that the company essentially had a million dollars cash on hand and that's what they proffered to WCW to enter that agreement which started on December 29th, 1995. It was a three-year deal between WCW and THQ. So when they got the news that obviously the company was going to go in a different direction, they really thought they were done for because keep in mind, historically, THQ did not have a reputation of developing quality

games, period, their business model was to acquire a license and then basically find a developer, and I'm speaking in general terms here, I'm sure there's some exceptions, but find a developer who can churn out that game as quickly as possible and bring it to market. And the thinking was if we can stack up as many of these licenses as we can, there were a number of notable ones, Star Wars, Rugrats, the Nickelodeon show, WCW, of course. But if we can stack up a number of those agreements, then, you know, we can be a profitable entity. So they weren't historically known for being a quality video game publisher. That is until the wrestling titles came along.

And I want to give you this anecdote, Conrad, to underscore everything that you just talked about there as it relates to how influential these games were, but also how, to your point, the WWF games took it to the next level, right? With WrestleMania 2000 and No Mercy, really building on that formula that they had developed with the WCW titles and expanding on it greatly. After this book came out, I would love to get your reaction to this, by the way, I got an email from a wrestling who said, well, let me ask you this first, Conrad, do you recall in these games, and I believe this was innovative for the time?

They included something called a spirit meter. Do you remember that? Yes, I do. I mean, it's, you know, fairly basic fare for games today, right? But this was like revolutionary at the time. So basically, the more damage that you're doing to the other opponent, the more it affects their spirit meter, right? I got an email from a wrestler who said,

I grew up with these games, played them religiously, and when I became a wrestler, the way that I structured my matches is I would visualize in my head and have a concept of, like, the spirit meter, right? Like how much damage the other opponent had done to me, and that would influence, you know, the way that I would be selling the moves, the way he would be selling the moves,

So what am I saying in a nutshell? What I'm saying is not only were these games highly influential and so memorable for the people playing the game, but ultimately for that next generation of wrestling performers, the future generation of stars. You know, we talk a lot about, and rightfully so, the influence of the cruiserweights and the Lucha Libre wrestling and the wrestling from all over the world that really changed the mainstream style of wrestling. But until I got that email, I didn't even consider that the, video games also had an impact on the way some of these guys went on to structure their matches.

And you can imagine maybe those from a different era looking at the matches and saying, well, this doesn't make any sense. Well, based on their concept of, you know, a wrestling match from the video games, it made perfect sense. Do you see where I'm getting out? That's really interesting. And if you kind of, I'm sorry to interrupt you, Conrad, but if you take a look at what's happened to the way wrestling is presented today, I'm not convinced that's not still a major contributing factor

to some of the, I'll call a lack of psychology an over emphasis on the visual dynamic. And that actually makes a great deal with sense. Not from a storytelling perspective, but from a business perspective, it does. Not to sound like an old school guy, but that's also a reason I think that selling is sometimes not as important. That's viewed as the old way because if you're a video gamer, one of the guys isn't really selling. I mean, he's going to try to get to his feet as fast as it can and now let's hit another finishing whenever. I'm saying that to say, it's clear that Kenny Omega and Will Osprey, they've been pretty vocal about their love video games and how

they've tried to cater some of their entrances and their gear and their moves and they're heavily influenced by video games, but that wasn't unique to just wrestlers. Eric, I don't know that you've ever paid any attention to this, but a lot of the football players today who just got drafted and became multimillionaires and are about to start their season, they lived and died football based on their video games. They learned the X's and O's of what plays work and what doesn't work and what to do when. They fell in love with the video game and that inspired them to play football and now they're most excited about what is my rating in madden i want to play as myself in the game a lot of these guys pursued their dream to be professional football players eric because

they wanted to be playable characters in madden that's a real story no it's it's understandable it's human nature number one and it's good business it can be number two because if you think about if you're a a wide receiver or running back or you know you've you've got an opportunity to find yourself in the end zone on a regular basis, if you're that good, then, man, you don't have a signature move in the NFL like you do in professional wrestling, but you certainly have a signature end zone dance. There you go. That could become part of it. So I would like to see the correlation behind the, you know, just the prevalence of the end zone activity, so to speak, and dance as it relates to the success and growth of NFL video games. There's probably a similar

correlation between that and what's happened to the way wrestling matches are being presented and the influence, the common denominator being the influence of video games on those athletes. Doom Rules is with us here live and he says being a late bloomer to pro wrestling, I discovered WCW in 1999 in my preteens. It's thanks to revenge that I learned to appreciate it. The guy became a wrestling fan and he's with us here live right now on YouTube because of the video game way back when. How cool is that? pretty awesome pretty awesome uh chris lynch is with us here live eric and he wants to know if there any pushback from anyone in corporate having n wc o in the title of wcw slash n wc o revenge

since that wasn't an actual entity no zero zero at that time nobody was really corporately very few people paid any attention to wcd you know 97 98 the only time that they would pay attention to WCW is when we were at the Omni or, and they wanted tickets for their friends and their family. But operationally, up until the middle of 1998, July, August of 1998, I had so much autonomy that I don't think anybody corporately even recognized what we were doing in terms of the NWO game. I do want to ask you about the video game executive known as Alfred R. Con, Al Con, Al Con, aka he is getting a lot of praise in our live chat.

He's sort of the, he's the big deal in pro wrestling games back then, certainly in the space. And in WCW did business with him, but I guess he had a lot of gravitas and he could be a character. He's somebody that I have to admit I'm not super familiar with. Any experience dealing with Al? What was your relationship? Yeah, I had several meetings with Alcon. I always enjoyed him.

He was, I mean, He could have been a wrestler, you know, in another lifetime. He had that big, kind of over the top personality. He was a character and he was really successful and a very, very smart man. Ultimately, is it just the financials that get in the way and keep you from continuing to do business with him? Or why did that deal come to an end? Probably just the financials. At the end of the day, I have to make the decision.

decisions that were in the best interests of the bottom line, regardless of how I felt about somebody, whether I liked them or disliked them, it didn't really matter. What mattered is money. What was the best for the bottom line and the future growth of the company. It wasn't just, you know, what benefits me today? It's, okay, does this deal benefit us today? And what's the forecast going into the future? And you have to bet on, I had to bet on growth. I still would do the same thing today. You have to bet on growth. and that's what we did. I wanted to ask you, Eric, about someone who's mentioned in one of these press releases.

It says the joint announcement was made today by WCW's newly appointed manager of licensing Casey Collins. You know, I've never spent any time talking about Casey Collins. What can you tell us about Casey? I like Casey a lot. I only worked with him for a short period of time. I didn't have a lot of experience working with Casey. I think Casey went on to, in fact, I know he did. I know he did.

Casey Collins went on. and worked for WWE in the early 2000s. For all, I know he's still there. But he was a really talented young man. He brought a fresh, he brought a fresh perspective to WCW. He wasn't part of the old guard, so to speak. You know, the residual Crockett family influence

that was still pretty pervasive at WCW well into the mid-90s. Casey was from outside of wrestling and brought a lot of new ideas, tremendous amount of energy. He was great with people, and he was a good negotiator. It was not very highly of him.

It was funny to hang out with. He was an upbeat personality. He's got to be a fun guy to hang out with, because not only did he do WCW, he was with Lucas Films and then WWE, you started shaking your head guy. You got any Casey Collins knowledge that you can drop on us? I don't, other than, as Eric was talking about,

what he subsequently went on to do. That was something I remember, looking at several years ago doing the first book. And I think that kind of says it all, right? Not only was he obviously successful in what he did at WCW, but to have that longevity with WWE, I think that says a lot about his impact. Well, somebody else who has a lot to do with impact is our sponsor today,

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It's like your money is being protected by your own personal bodyguard, even if you accidentally leave your phone unlocked or someone gains access to it without your knowledge. Plus, if you're about to send money to someone and Cash App notices something looks a bit off, maybe you're falling victim to a scam, they're going to send you a warning before the money sent in. To make you take a second, confirm that everything looks right. I'm a big believer in cash app. I know you will be too. And right now for a limited time, new cash app customers can use our exclusive code, turn some additional cash for real. Just download the cash app. Use our exclusive referral code, 83 weeks in your profile, and send $5 to a friend within 14 days. And then you'll

get $10 dropped right into your account. Terms apply, that's money. That's cash app. Cash app is a financial services platform not a bank banking services provided by cash apps bank partners prepaid debit cards issued by sutton bank member fdisc instant discounts provided by cash app a block ink brand visit cash dot app forward slash legal forward slash podcast for full disclosures so we are live here and we've got some questions from our live studio audience let's jump to some of these eop 3035 eric wants to know to wc profit from the games was there ever a correlation between the games and ratings did the bad games hurt the brand thanks for the memory so let's break that down do you remember eric that

revenues for the game were higher when ratings were higher i guess that makes sense if there's a bigger audience maybe there's more to sell was there a correlation that you saw or or was it a totally different algorithm no i mean they're they're i guess indirectly associated there's not a direct connection between ratings and in revenue unfortunately uh at at that time. But obviously, the more people are watching, the bigger your market is. The bigger your market is, the higher percentage of those viewers you're going to activate as consumers. So there's obviously a very strong indirect correlation. But the revenues for the games didn't necessarily correlate up and down. For example, you know, during the NFL, Monday night

football, guess what happens to Monday Night Nitro and Monday Night Raw? We take a pretty good size dip. That dip isn't reflected necessarily in retail sales because it comes back, usually at the end of the NBA season right around May or June. It still comes back, not to its peak, but it comes back. Your peak season is for ratings tends to be post, really January, February, March, April. By the time you get to the April, you're getting the NBA playoffs. again, your ratings start to taper down, but that doesn't necessarily mean that your revenue does, at least relative to licensing.

So indirectly, yes, directly, not really. Guy, I want to ask you, you know, based on the research that you've seen, what sort of splits were there? I mean, I know we're talking about the different deals that WCW had with these different manufacturers. And Eric talked about the advance he got, because that's really what it was.

It was a $5 million advance. I guess the question I have is, would they have gotten there anyway? Would they have exceeded that with THU? What can you tell us about the way those royalties worked for WCW company to company? Did each contract net a better royalty, if you will? Well, it's funny you say that because if you really want to see this at a granular level, if you look in the new book Beyond Nitro and you read the chapter,

which is covering the subject, you'll actually see the precise language in the licensing agreement. So if you want to know exactly how much WCW would be remitted the sale of the games, that's in there for you. And also there's information on how that changed over time, if that answers your question. But I think if I could add something on to the last question as well in terms of the relationship between the viewership figures,

all the racings and the video games, it's quite interesting. We've talked a lot about the really pivotal game that WCWNW Revenge came out the day that Nitro beat Raw for the last time, October 26th, 1998. That was the day that the game came out. That was the day after Halloween Havoc, where if you remember, they showed the Goldberg and page match again on TV.

So quite interesting that those two dates coincided. And although it would never be feasible to make this correlation, I'm not pretending to, but it's just interesting that in the couple of months after the release of that game, which was a big deal, of course, you know, Nitro, even though it wasn't beating Raw on a weekly basis, was actually registering its highest ever numbers during the Monday Night Wars. If you go back and look at January of 99, for example, you'll see, you know, sky-high viewership. It's just a raw is doing a little bit better. And finally, I'll just add as well that one of the things I talk about in the book is throughout the

Nitro era, one of the data points that WCW consistently cited to the media in relation to their audience was that 24% of the Nitro audience was age 17 or younger. 12 to 17 was a specific breakdown. So with that being said, naturally given the typical target audience for video games, you know, one could make the assumption that a fairly significant part of the Nitro audience week to week, we're also playing these games, given that the percentage was so high. So hopefully that answers your question. It does answer my question. Be sure to check out Guy's book if you haven't already at guyevansbooks.com.

Use our promo code 83 weeks and learn a little bit more about the granular details of these contracts. We got lots of comments like, how did we go from the beauty of WCW Mayhem to the trash of backstage assault? Well, I think we've kind of touched on that. Smalley Butler says as a 40 year old in 2025 who played all of them WCWNW Revenge on 64 was the greatest wrestling game ever made I hear that almost everywhere I go that it's that or no mercy don't you hear that guy I do and this gives me the opportunity to shout someone out who was absolutely pivotal in the development of these games and someone who helped me a lot with both books in terms of understanding all this a guy by the name name of Sanders keel who was a producer for THQ and traveled to a lot of the Nitro events and even went to some of the syndicated tapings, I believe, in Orlando to take photos of the different wrestlers and learn about their, you know, their moves and their characters and so forth. But he achieved something, and it wasn't only him, of course, but I, you know, he, I think

it's safe to say he was heavily involved in the process. He and others achieved something, which I think is really notable, which is that they were wrestling fans and WCW fans. and followed the product very, very closely and included in the games all of the details that the hardcore fan would want to see in the games, but equally made something that appeal to the masses as well, right? And that, I would imagine being able to do both of those things is quite a difficult task, right? They were able to give you something if you knew every single move that every single

that WCW wrestler does and every sort of idiosyncrasy and intricacy. of their character. They were able to show you that in the game while still making something that the non-fan could walk into the room and say that looks cool. And, you know, there's been many attempts to sort of replicate that formula, I think, over the years in the arena of video games. And too often, it seems like they kind of sway, you know, more to one end or the other. So if people are interested in learning even more about the development of the game, if you look at, go online and look for some interviews with Sanders, Sanders Keel, just an extremely nice

person very generous with all the information he gave me and just a wealth of knowledge on this stuff as well well we greatly appreciate you showing up and hanging out with us today for a part of our discussion about the video games i think we'll close with this from uh see neal x who says the phque wcd games on nintendo 64 revolutionized wrestling video games the same way the n w o revolutionized the wrestling business absolute game changers i couldn't agree more and I know some of you were disappointed that we talked about the business of the video games but Eric I think the next time you and I get

together we may have to break out some simulators I say you and I play some of these old video games and I'll even try to put you over even though I know I can Goldberg no problem let's do that that would actually be fun and be a brand new experience for me you can pop by video game cherry so

speak okay on that note go check out guys book use the promo code 83 weeks at Guy Evansbooks.com and we greatly appreciate all of you guys hanging out with us as we talked about the WCW video games. Hit that subscribe button, turn on the notifications bell when I can pin Eric down. We're going to do it in 8-bit characters live at 83 weeks.com.

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