83 Weeks with Eric Bischoff - Episode 388: TKO Is Taking Over

Episode Date: August 22, 2025

On this episode of 83 Weeks, Eric and Conrad take a deep dive into TKO’s growing involvement in the world of sports entertainment, exploring what their presence means for the industry and how it could shape the future of both WWE and AEW. From business strategy to creative influence, the guys break down the opportunities and challenges that come with a powerhouse like TKO stepping further into the spotlight. In addition, Eric looks back on his time working with Terry Taylor during the WCW years. Was Terry an underrated talent behind the scenes? What unique skills did he bring to the table, and how did his contributions impact WCW’s direction during that era? Eric opens up about their working relationship and gives an honest assessment of what he feels was Terry’s greatest strength in the business. ***Check out more of Eric's thoughts on TKO*** https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLo0wc1_Wke_5WE6M6ShOvr8a_duC0U7Kc  REAL AMERICAN FREESTYLE - Don't miss a single moment of all the action from Real American Freestyle Wrestling August 30th airing on the FOX Nation streaming network.  Tickets are also available at https://www.ticketmaster.com/real-american-freestyle-cleveland-ohio-08-30-2025/event/050062CB85690FB7  HARRYS - Our listeners get Harry’s Trial Set for only $8 + a Free Gift at https://harrys.com/83WEEKS  #Harryspod RIDGE - Get 10% Off your entire order & take advantage of Ridge’s Annual Sweepstakes by going to https://ridge.com/83WEEKS  #Ridgepod NO PURCH. NEC. Open to legal residents of 50 US/DC, Canada & the UK, age maj.+. Void where prohibited. Begins 8/1/25 and ends 9/15/25. 2 winners selected. Max Prizes total ARV: $380,000 USD / approximately $516,000 CAD / £306,800. Canadian skill-testing question required. Subject to Rules, including free entry method & odds: ridge.com/rules. Sponsor: The Ridge Wallet, LLC. DELETE ME - Get 20% off your DeleteMe plan when you go to http://joindeleteme.com/83WEEKS and use promo code 83WEEKS at checkout. MANDO - Control Body Odor ANYWHERE with @shop.mando and get 20% off + free shipping with promo code 83WEEKS at http://shopmando.com ! #mandopod BLUECHEW - Visit https://bluechew.com  and try your first month of BlueChew FREE when you use promo code 83WEEKS -- just pay $5 shipping. SAVE WITH ERIC - Stop throwing money away by paying those high interest rates on your credit card. Roll them into one low monthly payment and on top of that, skip your next two house payments. Go to https://www.savewitheric.com  to learn more.

Save with Conrad.com My name is Sergio, I'm from Lancaster in California. The motivation behind just following through with this refinance was I have a baby on the way, so I just wanted to get everything in order. In the past couple of years, just afraid to pull the trigger, but then it just seemed like the right time to do it. I went to multiple banks, not only the mortgage I had, but then I went to you, and then I also went to several others.

And it just seemed like your team, they were just completely honest, and outright. Also, all the information was just laid out for me right there and then answering all my questions in a timely, efficient manner. Diane was just so helpful and above and beyond accessible with texting and emails and just any information that they needed. She would explain to me what exactly they wanted me to send and then if there were any issues, she was able to just resolve them pretty quickly versus other companies that sometimes it would take a couple of days to get some information. We're looking to pay down some debt, also looking into making some improvements to the home, also build up our backyard, do everything, especially for our

daughter coming. By doing this cash out, it's a good amount that we're saving between $1,500 a month, I would say. It helped out tremendously as well. My name's Sergio. I'm from Lancaster, California, and I saved over $1,500 a month with Savewithconrad.com. Hit of a lesson number 212, non-equal housing lender. Save with Conrad.com. Hey, hey, it's Conrad the mortgage guy, and you're listening to 83 weeks with Eric, fish off, Eric. What's going on, man?

How are you? I'm fired up, bro. We are, today is Wednesday. Full disclosure. I'm going to be in New York on Saturday morning doing a live episode on Fox and Friends. Fox is going to start their big push for Real American Freestyle, starting on Saturday. So it's a big day for us. And getting ready, man.

We're only a week and a half away, and we'll be doing it. First time ever event. We're presenting freestyle wrestling in a way that no one else has ever seen it. some of the top elite athletes in the world are going to be competing. This is definitely a showcase event, and it's going to change the way people think about freestyle wrestling and just recognize how important it is to the explosion in MMA. Can you tell them a little excited?

A little excited, nothing. Here we are, as you and I are recording, we're 10 days away, but as folks are listening, it's a week from tomorrow, and boy, are we fired up to see this? this event. Everybody has questions and they want to know what to expect with Real American Freestyle. And it feels like there's been a lot of confusion because anytime I've retweeted something from Real American Freestyle, Eric, and I know you've been battling this from the beginning, I'm getting comments that think this is a professional wrestling

venture. And it is, but it's not sports entertainment. So I thought maybe the best way to sort of explain how this is going to look and feel different than, because that is something we've from day one here on 83 weeks you could be better than less than or different than this is much different than pro wrestling now of course you've never seen this event before but we thought hey maybe to get you in the mood and give you a little sample of what to expect from real american freestyle let's let this video do the talking for us let's take a look I will rise No satisfaction

Without the fight A man has limits Oh so they say But I never listen Did it my way I'm gonna take what's a mind I paid my dues I dare you to walk a mile in these shoes

The beating my soul just keeps getting louder Give me something like power Give me something like power Give me something like power I want to feel it in my blood and feel it in my pain Show you that I can't maintain Give me some of like

Power So keep your silver I came for gold No place for quitters Only for the bowl I'm gonna take what's a mind I paid my dues Gonna fill this fire

So like that fuse The beat in my soul just keeps getting out of Give me some of that power Tickets are available now Going to Ticketmaster.com for details I mean, I must have watched that video, including, you know, while it was being produced and making notes and all that kind of stuff. I've seen that thing 300 times, and I get goosebumps every time I see it, bro. It's just, there's nothing I could say that could frame what we're about to do any more clearly than that video.

These are, you saw, you know, Sarah Hildebrand in one of those shots. Oh, she's just a, you know, Olympic gold medalist. One of my favorites, Kennedy Blades, young woman from Chicago, 22 years old, full-time student, one of the most solid human beings I ever met. She's absolutely, she's stunningly beautiful on the outside. One of the coolest people I've ever met. So grounded and just an amazing person. Oh, and by the way, she's a silver medalist. Well, she's going to college full time.

So, I mean, Real Woods, Kyle Dake, Lance Palmer. Lance Palmer, oh, I don't know. His dad trained him in the image wrestling, starting at age five, and he wrestled bears. Kid you not, legit, bears. Go to the Real American Freestyle page over on Instagram. You can see the video for yourself. Such an amazing group of people. We're going to end up going forward.

Great stories. And get this, Conrad, do I sound like I'm selling? I am. we're going to launch a weekly two-hour live real American freestyle series coming your way, first quarter, 26. So there is so much great stuff going on here. By the way, that's breaking news. I did an interview with the Boston Globe yesterday, and I gave it to them, but that's not coming out until, I think, Saturday. So it's a scoop as part of we're concerned.

52 weeks a year, two hours a week, live, real American freestyle action coming your way. So, yeah, there's a ton of good stuff going on. But check us out, August 30th, I swear, this is the last time I'll pitch you. August 30th, you could get it live on Fox Nation. Go to Fox or go to Fox.com. They'll give you all kinds of ways you can get that stuff almost for free, hell of a discount. As an introductory to you new wrestling fans, but we're going to build an empire here, and I can't wait. I can't wait either, Eric.

You know, I have to admit, as I watched that video, I mean, I got goosebumps too. I don't know how you couldn't because you know this is the beginning of something really big. It's a really big opportunity for those athletes who have dedicated their lives to wrestling. And now they're ready to, you know, have some stakes. I think that's what we're all about here on 83 weeks. And the idea that you're at the front of this is really exciting for me. I mean, I can't wait to be there. I guess I haven't mentioned that on the show.

I'm going to be there. I'm bringing a whole gaggle of folks. I don't want to miss it. If you're there, come say hello, let's do a pick. History is going to be made on August 30th. I can't wait to see it. And as I was watching that, Eric, I was thinking about the challenge of how do we explain to our wrestling audience what this really is?

And I think the word, instead of saying pro wrestling, it's almost like shoot wrestling. There's no work in here. These guys are really, really battling. and I can't wait to see it in person, Eric. This is going to be fun for any wrestling fan, I think, to check out. Oh, yeah, no, this is straight up, legit competition. There's no scripted drama here. And I love me some scripted drama.

We all know that. But this is, you know, straightforward freestyle wrestling. And you know what's weird is I noticed early on we're getting caught up in this. What really is pro wrestling? Because we've referred to pro wrestling for decades now. Let's call it generations now, as much as I hate to admit that. We've been referring to scripted wrestling as pro wrestling, which it's not. Now, we're actually launching a legitimate professional wrestling league,

but we don't want to call it pro wrestling because it'll confuse generations of people, right? so it's a weird it's a weird intersection to be at but you know that's why we're leading heavily on freestyle but it is straight up competition effect hopefully by around the first quarter you're going to be able to you're going to be able to bet on real American freestyle and that's where it's going to get really exciting oh yeah because and especially for the existing MMA audience because no matter who you talk to in in the world of MMA they will tell you that wrestling, freestyle wrestling, call it what you will. Wrestling is probably the most important foundation of MMA.

So if you're an MMA fan and you like to bet on MMA, don't you think knowing a little bit more about wrestling is going to matter? Oh, by the way, we've got Bo Nichols going to be competing on our car. He's in the UFC. But his foundation is freestyle wrestling. So you're going to see what Bo Nichols is, brings to the octagon in terms of his skill sets that may make you rethink how you plan your betting strategies when you're watching UFC. So there's a lot of reasons why this is going

to be fun, but it's straight up competition, real world, real stuff. And by the way, you never know what some of these athletes will pursue once their legitimate athletic endeavors are behind them. Once they're ready to move past legitimate athletic competition, is the next Kurt angle going to be there? Is the next Brock Lesnar going to be there? By the way, the real Kurt Engel will be there. He's a part of the real American freestyle. But imagine if this existed in 1996 or 1997. Would Kurt have even gotten into sports entertainment? Would Brock Lesner have ventured this way instead of sports entertainment? Those guys, as best I can recall, they didn't grow up big pro wrestling fans. They sort of thumb their nose at it. But there was no

those guys to make a living in this style wrestling but now thanks to real american freestyle there is i'm pumped for this it's going to be it's going to be so much fun i can't wait i am so much looking for i'm already looking past this event you know for the most part the heavy lifting for me uh in terms because i don't oversee the whole company obviously but the parts that i do oversee the heavy lifting for me is it's not done but it's getting close right so now i've got some bandwidth for the first time in about three months. And I'm starting to think about, okay, what's next? I want to stay ahead of this.

So what's the next big move? And Chad and I have been talking a lot about it, and we both agreed that the next big move is going to be that weekly series, that live action series every single week. And that's something that we can pull off with the existing team we have in place. We've put together a phenomenal team of people.

On the back end, in terms of licensing and marketing, we've already, we've already got a merchandise sponsor, uh, as a matter of fact, and take down, uh, we're going to be launching our merchandise Saturday, August 3. So we're, I'm already living in about July of 2026 in my head. I'm working in July. That's, that's, that's how much fun this is. And listen, I don't know, um, I don't know if the rumors are true, but I've already heard there's rumors of another major event happening this year.

I'm not going to put you on the spot, but I will say I'm pumped for this, and I have to admit, I don't even know what the heck Fox Nation is, but I'm going to go download it because I want to be able to watch this. So I'm going to go find that. Fox Nation is a streaming platform over at Fox. They've got the PBR series is over there. This has got a lot of great content. And Fox Nation, Foxx Nation are moving more into sports for their streaming platform,

which is Foxxination. did you say PBR yeah professional bullwriters like owned by TKO PBAR oh hell yeah brother you just connected oh and by the way speaking of TKO WWE as a part of our show on August 30th has produced

for us for Hull for Real American Freestyle a really special tribute and that will also be part of the show So I know you saw Raw, you sell SmackDown, but Real American Freestyle has their own courtesy of WWE. Thank you, Nick Kahn, thank you, Paul Vec. Thank you, Ben Houser, for putting together such a phenomenal, and Matt, for putting together such a phenomenal piece of video for us.

We really appreciate that. And I can't wait to see it. I'm excited. Cleveland is the place to be August 30th. Go grab your tickets right now on Ticketmaster, and of course you can stream it on Fox Nation. this is the beginning of something brand new, something big. And I want to be there to say that,

I mean, think about what the benefit of hindsight. If you can tell your friends, hey, I was at the first UFC. Like, I mean, a lot of,

I've been to a bunch of UFCs, but to say you're at the first one. That's going to feel special. I can't wait to be there. I hope you'll make plans to join us. Eric will be there. I'll be there. And there's rumor and innuendo.

A couple of WWE Hall of Famers may be running around there. Can't wait to see it. Real American freestyle coming your way. Hey, let's talk about another TKO property from this past. weekend. You know, listen, you, um, you've got your fair share of haters online, Eric, especially in the internet wrestling community. And it tickles me. I took me too, brother. Tickles me too. As much as they sometimes like to give you

the old side eye, they really do love a lot of the things that you introduced to the mainstream professional wrestling audience here in America. Specifically, I'm talking about TCO's hugely successful event this past weekend. I guess we'll call it the first W. We, triple mania. Now, as I understand it, W.W.E doesn't own all of AAA, but certainly they handled the production on this event, and you can tell a huge difference. On commentary, we had Corey Graves and JBL and Conan. It was phenomenal. And even the way it was lit, the way it was shot, the way it was produced, hats off to Jeremy Borash and everyone involved, and we're hearing behind the scenes, as crazy as this sounds, the Undertaker is a big part of this. The way, I did not have my bingo card

with the Undertaker helping run AAA. What in the world do you make of this? Did you see any of the event? What did you think? I did not. But before we ship gears and talk about today's topic, I did get a chance to watch what's the new series Untold? Is that the name of it?

Well, Untold is a series that has been around, but maybe you're talking about LFG. I'm not sure what you saw. No, the, the, Unreal. Unreal. Unreal. I'm sorry. Unreal. Let's talk about that. But, you know, what do I make Undertaker in being involved in AAA? Here's what I think about that. I think Undertaker, like a lot of guys who reach the peak, or most cases near the peak, but in Undertaker's case, he not only reached the peak, he got his own personalized zip code there for a couple decades. But when you reach that level, and then you have to walk away from it. That's when you develop a different appreciation and a different interest, perhaps, even in the business, because while Undertaker, and I don't know, we haven't talked about this, I'm just my impression from afar, but when a guy like Undertaker were being highly involved in the industry for such a long time and then walking away from it, even if, I'm sure in Undertaker's case, he's very happy physically to walk away from him.

and his heart is still in it, right? His mind is still going. He's still thinking. He's still creating. But now he's doing it for other people instead of himself. And when you get to the point, when you're in that transition, speaking for myself, you really begin to appreciate other aspects of the business. And I think that's what this is.

I think this is Undertaker, who is highly motivated, wants to contribute. He's got great instincts, something that's often. so overlooked in a discussion about who's the best at whatever, right? Behind the scenes, in front of the camera, it doesn't matter. Most of those people, the one common denominator they have is instinct. And it's rare. Undertaker has it. And now he's able to take all those decades of experience

and engage in something that's completely different than he's ever done before. I think it's freaking awesome. It's going to bring more eyes. It's going to bring more attention to that product. So hats off to everybody. Eric, I got to give you some homework. I want you to go when you get a chance.

I know you got some flights coming up. You'll watch Triplemania. I think you're going to love this. The presentation is cool. And just giving a talent who may be lost in the shuffle in the really loaded WWRoster of 2025. Like, I don't know if you. saw even a clip of this but just the visual of almost and microman accumulated in the first

48 hours well over a hundred million impressions so this is the largest wrestler in wwee seven foot four and the newly signed microman clearly the smallest i mean swoggle makes i mean he makes swoggle look like andre the giant and i mean that's me with a bag of ice every time i have a get together i mean this is an unbelievable visual and just the way they used the iguana puppet which i know you're going to love with mystery iguana he's going to wrestle with with fin baller and he breaks out a demon puppet which by the way is now selling for a hundred dollars like there was something for everybody on this card and i had a blast watching it i watched it with casual and and maybe non-fans and they

had a blast so i hope you'll go check it out it is interesting to think that you know people who once upon a time we're dumping on Eric Bischoff now all of a sudden they love Lucha Libre and I can't help but think I really put that on TV in America the first time oh yeah that was my buddy Eric yeah you know it was fun kind of I was up I'm doing this from inside my house because my computer out of my studio just wasn't kicking in right so while I was in the studio this morning trying to get my computer to work I'm looking up at that big oil painting of Scott Hall and Hulk Hogan and Kevin Nash and of course means Gene O'Colin from that moment, right after the big leg drop in 96, Hogan turns heel,

and he's about ready to announce or introduce the New World Order. So you were so kind to get an oil painting of that from Paint Your Life, as a matter of fact. And it's looking right at me when I sit down to record. And I was just thinking to myself, you know, that moment, in my opinion, and this isn't putting myself over, it just is what it is. That moment, that decision, that story. More than anything, that moment absolutely is responsible in no small part to the success that the entire industry is enjoying today. Yes.

That one moment forced WWE to abandon their decades-old strategy, creative strategy, business strategy, specifically targeting teens and preteens. that moment with Hulk Hogan Dead Center changed the wrestling industry forever had it not been for that moment and had WWE, Vince McMahon being the stubborn businessman that we all know him to be from time to time, would have stayed on the teen and pre-teen path because it's the only thing he knew.

It's the only thing he believed it. I forced him to shift his strategy, go to 18 to 49-year-old men, And shortly thereafter, he took over that audience and went public and the rest is history. And you can follow that trajectory, that timeline as far back as you want. But if you put any granularity to it, that moment that I just described was the biggest contributor to the success of WWE. Ultimately, as a result of the force from teens to 18 to 49's, that moment was one of the most important things. the second most important thing that we did on Nitro, and it's a we, that we did on Nitro,

is introduced for the very first time on a national platform in prime time and not only exposed and utilized the Lutradors, but we created an entire division for them. And that exposure is why Ray Mysterio, Down Mysterio, so many of the luchadors that we're seeing today, they're benefiting from that. And if anybody, Dave Meltzer, has a hard time wrapping your head around that, there's nothing I can say to help you, or anybody else for that matter.

Well, let's help some people get the best shave of their life. I'm talking about my friends and Harry's razors. You know, I've promoted other razors here on the program before. I have to be honest. And there was a guy at the office, my buddy John, who anytime I brought up this razor, because I bragged about it, I got my barber using it and everything.

He would always refuse and say, I'm a Harry's man. Well, I have to admit, I finally tried it. And you know what? He was right. Harry's is the real deal. And let me explain why.

The other razors, they dole too fast and that irritate your neck. Not with Harry's. Not only that, but they're ripping you off. Those other razors, what are they? Like $20 for a four pack of refills?

That's a total scam and you know it. This is a barber. shop quality shave, but with German engineered blades. You see, each blade is honed at three different angles to cut hair cleanly at the root without tugging. The blade spacing, by the way, is optimized to glide smoothly and avoid clogging. Those drugstore blades, man, they're going to clog up so fast. And did I mention that every cartridge also has a lubricating strip with aloe and vitamin E

to calm your skin while you shave? Harry's, by the way, is passing on the savings to you. Not only is it going to be the best shave of your life, but it's also going to be more affordable. They do this because Harries owns their own world-class blade factory over in Germany. There's no outsourcing. There's no middleman. It's the same facility that's been perfecting blade making for over 100 years.

And they control the entire process with Harry's from steel to chef, and that's how they keep the cost low. So don't go spend $20 for refills. You know Harries will give you better blades for a fraction of that. By the way, if for some reason you don't like, love your shave. Well, first of all, you'd be crazy. But if you are, Harry's will make it right. No questions asked. This is a risk-free trial. There's zero downside of giving it a shot. And I'll admit, I was pretty happy with my old razor. I was wrong. Harry's is better.

This is the real deal. And I love their story, too. But when you hold this razor in your hand, you're going to fall in love. It's weighted. It's got an ergonomic handle that gives you total control. There's no more slipping. There's no awkward angles. It just feels premium in your hand. And Harry's doesn't just make razors, by the way. They've got a full line of grooming essentials. Everything you need is a dude. We're talking shave gel, deodorant, body wash. It's all right there thoughtfully made and price so you can stock up.

And for a limited time, our listeners can get Harry's trial set for only $8. Plus, you get a free gift right now at harries.com slash 83 weeks. Just head on over to harries.com slash 83 weeks to receive our exclusive discount Now, after you purchase, they're going to ask you where you heard about them. Do us a favor. Please support our show and tell them we sent you. Eric, we've had a lot of different razors here on the show. I'm just being honest.

But this one has not only the best shave, but the best deal. We've never had a deal like this on 83 weeks ever before. You get the trial set for only eight bucks, Eric, and it comes with a free gift at harries. com slash 83 weeks. Let's talk a little bit about the other news and notes in professional rassling. this weekend is the New Japan pay-per-view. It's AEW working with New Japan.

It's called Forbidden Door. Didn't somebody else who had a show on PBS and Turner once do stuff with New Japan too? It's weird. Nothing's coming to mind. Hey, this is a big deal this weekend. I don't know if you've seen the news, but it's great news from professional wrestling as a whole.

They've already secured the fourth largest non-WWE gate in history. It's going to be a total sellout. Wrestletics just a few days ago tweeted there were around 200 tickets left. But with pricing the way it is, and by the way, AEW tickets are a fraction of what WW price tickets have been lately. But it's still the fourth largest non-WWGate in history. This is a great time for the wrestling business. It feels like everywhere we look, there's more success to tout.

Record triple mania this past weekend. Another record this weekend with AEW and New Japan. It's a great time to be in the wrestling business. wrestling business. Isn't it, Eric? In many ways it is. The UK has been consistently one of the hottest markets for big live events. Perhaps in a world, I mean, if you look at the number of big events, everybody that goes there does well. Maybe that's my point. Probably not accurate on the statistics, because I don't track it. But it seems like every time we turn around, somebody is going to the UK and selling out,

and particularly AEW and obviously WWE. But the independent scene has been hot in the UK. It's far back. One of the first times that I went there as part of an independent event, Drew McIntyre was there. So, you know, it was a good 10 years ago. And it was hot then. So, yeah, it's a great time to be in the wrestling business,

whether you're an independent promoter or at the top of the top of the mountain so speak we often talk about the business of professional wrestling eric and i want to point out something that brandon thurston pointed out on twitter that i'll admit was a blind spot for me and i thought wow i got to bring this up to eric here's the tweet tkio significant relationships across disney netflix nbcc u nextar fox a and e paramount and may or may not have exclusivity terms, but even if they don't contain them in writing, the plaintiff might argue WWE has functionally foreclosed nearly all of the U.S. wrestling television market. There are a few prominent media companies TKO

doesn't have deals with, Amazon, Warner Brothers Discovery, Apple, but MLW got its case to move forward when a pre-merger WWE had deals with a lesser variety of U.S. media partners. I'll admit until Brandon laid that out, I didn't really think about the fact that this kind of almost feels like when two wealthy people are going to get a divorce and one of them strategically goes and meets with all the high-powered lawyers in advance of their spouse having an opportunity to you want to talk about chess TKO man my gosh I didn't think about all the different relationships they have

this is oh yeah well yeah what are they over on to be they've got content or wherever it is I mean their their footprint is they're pretty much covering all of viable basis, viable meaning for them to reach different audiences with different types of programming. I want to go back to Unreal before this is over, though. This is a perfect reason why I want to talk about it. They're not just producing wrestling in the ring. They're producing so many spin-offs. Shoulder content, meaning, yes, it's the core characters. It's a core brand, whether it's characters or WWE, whatever. It's the

core brand, but presenting it from a different angle in a different perspective in telling stories or engaging the audience, putting on the format, in an entirely different way. That makes part of an audience who specifically likes

that style of programming. In the case of Unreal, it's more doc follow as it's referred to in the industry than it is anything else, but it showcases the characters. I mean, I was listening to, when I watched it last night on Netflix, you know, I was listening to Ria Ripley, and I'm hearing Ria Ripley in an entirely different way

than I hear from her when I see her in action, right? Different aspect of her character, different look, different field, different connective point, because not every potential wrestling fan likes the exact same thing about the product in the ring. I think the internet wrestling community is a good testament to that, right? Everybody's got a different reason why they like pro wrestling, which is why it is so popular and has been since the beginning of freaking television time. Professional wrestling has been a mainstay of any form of television, whether it be, you know, back in the 50s, the first professional wrestling program on network TV was on the Dumont network in 1953 or 1954.

And from that point forward, whether it was leading the way in cable, leading the way in pay-per-view, leading the way in OTT, and now currently leading the way in many respects and streaming. But now what AEWTKL has been able to do, and by the way, we're just talking about WWE content that's spread across all these various platforms. UFC has that same opportunity. They're both under the same umbrella. So TKO is effectively going to have their fingerprints on every means possible to distribute varieties of their core brand to the different audiences and connect on those various touch points

or connection points for the audience. It's a brilliant strategy. Brandon Thurston's comment about exclusivity in the agreement. I think not I'll be kind here theoretically I guess particularly based on history

theoretically yes but as a result of the lawsuit that you reference do you think for a moment that WWE or TCO would structure a contract that would suggest basis for litigation

to go back to the monopoly issue is not going to happen There's no exclusivity. Now, here's effectively what happens, though, and this is where it gets way more nuanced. Effectively, what happens is, for example, let's say there was no personal connective tissue in any way, shape, or form between USA and WWE. There was no emotional connection, no history, no loyalty, sheerly decisions based on numbers, right? Certainly no exclusivity.

Somebody comes along with a product that is arguably just as good from a production value point of view, from a storytelling point of view, because that's the first thing any television network is actually going to ask, is who are your characters and what are your stories? If they don't ask that question, they shouldn't be in that job. but they're going to ask generally. So somebody comes to the table with a competing product. It's arguably in those categories equal, maybe even better.

Maybe. It's not proven. That person goes to pitch that to USA Network. I can guarantee you the first thing you're going to hear is, and probably from the ad sales division, they're going to speak up first they always do always do when it comes to nutcutting time and decision time ad sales is going to say whoa whoa whoa whoa we've got all the wrestling we can handle we can't hardly sell what we've got why are we going to dilute what we have which we're

continuing to build up year after year after year why would we dilute that to introduce a new product in the same category that's untested. That's not going to happen. So there need not be exclusivity. The natural order of things is going to make it challenging for any new wrestling company or existing wrestling company to find a buyer who's willing to take the risk on more wrestling ad sales content that they're already having, or in some cases, have never tried to sell before.

So the growth and expansion that Brandon is referring to is absolutely 100% true. The suggestion about maybe, maybe not exclusivity, that's clickbait or a passing comment. I like Brandon. I love his research. I appreciate his work. Respect the hell out of them.

But that's enough of a little nugget of nuanced kind of, you know, rumor-mongering shit stirring that the Internet wrestling community lives off of. In reality, it won't happen. There won't be exclusivity in any agreement for all of the seemingly obvious reasons. And the second being that it's not necessary. If you want more wrestling content, are you going to go to the proven producer of wrestling content? are you going to do this deal with some guy you've never heard of before? I don't know enough of that.

Well, listen, I don't know if this is privileged information or not, but do you know Dave Marquez, the guy who's done wrestling in California forever and ever? I don't think so. Okay. Well, he's been around forever and ever. A lot of our listeners are going to be familiar with his championship wrestling from Hollywood and all that sort of stuff. Oh, I've heard of that.

Okay. Well, he's got a syndicated network. And so I know I had a conversation with him in Atlanta earlier this year. I was at a dynamite taping in Atlanta and he was there too. So we got a chance to catch up beforehand. And I knew that a couple of years ago, he was working with Dave Lagana and he had a whole plant like they were going to use my big gold belt and they were going to have a series and it was going to be studio wrestling.

They had a partnership with Car Shield and he had a real plan going that I was kind of excited about when the Ghana told me about it. This is my first time seeing Dave since. And I said, hey, man, what happened with the CW thing? Because I remember thinking, hey, they're going to announce this like in the next couple of months and this is going to be a thing and of course as we all know well that became an nxte property as the story goes according to dave and i may be butchering this a little bit so my apologies to him if that's the case but i think as the story goes he had a relationship with someone at cw

and there was some sort of changeover or management uh and when that happened i think it came across his desk like hey if we're going to get in the wrestling business i know they've got this startup and you guys like them and it's a great relationship but why don't we just just call WWE and see if they've got any programming with your product because that would be easier to sell and at the last minute before you know even though they had a budget and it was locked down and blah blah blah blah WWE comes in for more money and as they said and there will be blood they drank his milkshake and there went his deal his TV deal and WWE got it so I'm saying all that to say I know that those type situations exist where if you're the person responsible for

selling those ads and you can try to fight that uphill battle of I've got to educate this new buyer, this new advertiser on what this company is and what they do and blah, blah, blah. And the first question that anybody who's being pitched, that sort of thing is going to say, you mean like WWE? Because that's

the brand in the space. So that was game set match for Dave and his CW deal. And I'm pulling for them because I think a lot of him and Ligana and I hope they do something together really cool one day, but it won't be on the CW. And to point out what you were talking about in reference

to the MLW anti-trust lawsuit that we know, well, I shouldn't say we know. We've heard is like a $20 million settlement or something in that range. I think they're crazy like a fox. This whole T&A deal, the reason the acquisition has not completely happened, in my opinion,

is it's just come out that WWE has first right of refusal if there's another body. If they pull the lever right now, we may open ourselves up. But if we prove there's another bidder in the marketplace, well, that frees it up. And it's even why I said, well, they're kind of the owner of AAA because they do have a partner there. And I don't think a lot of people are talking about that.

It's not like WWE owns AAA lock, stock, and barrel. They have a partner there. So they're being strategic in how all of this works. And I think it's interesting that the two places that we hear TNA might be looking at a new TV deal are A&E who has a WWE deal and CW who has a WVE deal. It's interesting to see how TKO has started to just completely. take over this space, especially with regard to advertising dollars, because that's been the uphill battle

from day one in wrestling, right? That's, I mean, that's the thing. It's funny. You know, you talk about your friend, Dave, who was, you know, right on the finish line and somebody went, shoot, I don't know if we want wrestling. Why don't we go to those guys over there? Because they're like, they make the Mercedes, right? Yes.

The top of the line, that's easier. It's an easier sell. People, especially the internet wrestling community, and I don't mean to be as disparaging as this is going to sound, but They're just dumb as shit, which it's okay to not understand things, but when you work so desperately hard like Dave Meltzer does to create the illusion that you're actually knowledgeable about the television business when all you really do is read shit online and maybe read an article in variety that can capture your 10 seconds

of imagination and figure out a way to regurgitate that shit to make your sound smart. That's the internet wrestling community as a whole. One of the reasons I like Brandon Thurston is because he provides information. He provides detail. He understands the process and the implications of it more than anybody else that's covered ratings and demos and information before, which is why I respect it. But people think, for example, oh, Joe Blow, the wrestling promoter, he's got a great relationship with the president of this network.

They go out and they party together, they eat dinner together, their wives shopping, they love, they love each other. Doesn't make a fuck. Doesn't matter. At the end of the day, the only thing that matters are the numbers.

And those numbers start and stop, while they start with ad sales. If those numbers don't fly, it doesn't matter what that relationship is because if this guy at the top of the network who's responsible for the revenue and the bottom line is holding on to content because of a personal relationship or even affection or even an appetite for the content itself you're holding on to something that's not performing financially not only is that show going to go you're going to go so just you know the desire

to extend one's professional life in a given situation suggests that it's all about the numbers and people need to understand, yeah, ratings are important to a degree. They're very important. In fact, they're fundamental because they support what I'm suggesting. Ad sales drive everything. Ratings are the only metric that matter in ad sales. Now, take that back. audience performance is the only thing that matters in ad sales and yes there are ways now to track performance and other things outside of a cable platform for example those metrics do matter but not significantly enough right so you're either delivering eyeballs or you're not if you are you're in good shape if you're not you're vulnerable so

The fact that a buyer is going to make a bet on wrestling, they're going to always make the safe bet. And that's the existing product. That's the well-known brand. I face the same thing with WCW. When we first, before I brought Hulk, one of the reasons I brought Hulk Hogan in to WCW-94 is exactly because I was aware of that brick wall that WCW owned by Turner Broadcasting, not an unknown entity. We couldn't get traction in the marketplace for the same reason because WWE was the dominant player. And anybody that wanted to do business in wrestling was going to do business with the dominant player because it's the safer bet. That situation existed for me in 1992.

It exists today just on a much larger scale. We are live here and we're excited to be talking about our topic today, which is going to be Terry. Taylor. We're going to get there momentarily, but we're having a lot of fun talking about the business of professional wrestling. And I wanted to briefly talk about this new ESPN opportunity. I don't know that you and I have spent a ton of time talking about this, but with Jeff Jared and I, we've had a little bit of a chance to think about this and talk about it. And we've landed on the fact that we believe this will become the biggest, most important deal in WWE history. You know, we took a look at that first peacock deal that Nick put together,

and if this were professional football, I think we'll look back one day and say that was his rookie contract. He's got a big deal financially with the ESPN opportunity. But from a mainstream coverage and acceptance, what this will do for the advertising dollars, because now it's on ESPN is gigantic. I think it'll also put even more pressure on ticket prices. If you have some of the hottest,

most expensive tickets and it's on ESPN, it's going to start to feel like, and you've seen this before, Eric, we would go to a wrestling show and then we would go to a UFC show and it felt like they were two totally different audiences. And I get that they are, but I'm saying as far at UFC events, guys and gals get dressed up like they're going out, like they're going to the nightclub or something. It's a totally different experience. And if you've been to like big time college football games, I'm going to talk about football Saturdays in the South, man, guys and gals get dressed up to go to these sort of things. It's a different thing. And I think that's going to continue to create more

advertiser appetite, for lack of a better word. But this story that's continuing to develop about September 20th is one that I can't wait to pick your brain about. But first, I want to talk to everybody about Ridge. Eric and I have been using the Ridge for quite a while. And if you're still using a crusty old wallet, what are you waiting for? You got to get a Ridge. They make amazing wallets. They make badass luggage. And they've got premium every day gear and they're doing a legendary sweepstakes for the fifth time and this time it's insane two lucky winners get to choose from a two hundred and eighty thousand dollar Lamborghini or a hundred thousand dollar hennessee velociraptor or a hundred thousand dollars in cash all right eric

i got to put you on the spot if you can get a Lamborghini hennessee velociraptoraptor which i could totally see you tooling around wyoming in or a hundred grand cash what would you pick Eric's muted, but I know he's going with the truck. I just know it. Hey, I got to tell you, I'm a big car guy and the idea that you could get a freaking Lamborghini Hurricon Starado is unbelievable. They're only making like 1,500 of those. And Ridge is giving you the chance to own one.

You may not know this, but Lamborghini made their first ever off-road supercar. Yeah, it's a Lamborghini for off-roading. It's a naturally aspirated V-10. It's got 610 horsepower. Can you imagine driving that around your town? Can you imagine the dust bowl that Eric would kick up in a moment with that thing? But the Velociraptor, well, that's probably more Eric's speed. It's in a seat.

And if you're a truck nerd or an engine nerd, you know that means it's badass. How about a 558 horsepower twin turbo? We're talking an American muscle car dropped into an all-terrain truck. And there's no reason not to enter. You can enter completely free right now at ridge.com. Why not take your shot? Go enter right now for. free at ridge.com, and if you want to boost your odds, every dollar you spend on Ridge's site

gets you one additional entry. So what are you waiting for? Go grab a Ridge wallet, a power bank, a phone case, whatever you need, rack up on those entries. With over 50 different colors and styles, Ridge wallet isn't just functional, it's personal, whether you're looking to be sleek and you want that black forged carbon fiber, or maybe you want a wallet that features your favorite NFL team, or just one that matches your vibe, man, they've got you covered, whatever you're looking for. By the way, I mentioned it earlier, but Ridge isn't just about wallets, all your everyday carry essentials, things like keycases, suitcases, rings. They're all built with the same sleek, durable design. And no matter what you like, Ridge has free shipping.

And a 99-day risk-free trial, most importantly, a lifetime warranty. This will be the last wallet you ever buy. And who else gives you a 99-day risk-free trial? If you're ready to upgrade your wallet and maybe your ride for a limited time only, head on over to ridge.com and use the code 83 weeks and check out for 10% off your order and a chance to win Ridge's biggest six ever a Lamborghini Huracons, Serato, an Tennessee Velociraptor or $100,000 in cash.

There's no purchase necessary to enter, but every dollar you spend gets you more entries. That's ridge.com and use the promo code 83 weeks. After you purchase, they're going to ask you where you heard about them. Please support our show and tell them we sent you. Here, let's talk about it. September 20th. There's lots of rumors that this will be the very first ESPN deal.

And I know what you're saying. You're saying to yourself, didn't they say that starts in April of next year? Well, yes, they did. But on that particular day, a lot of wrestling fans in the internet wrestling community got kind of fired up thinking, oh, they're counter programming, AEWs all out in Toronto. And I hear you if you're in the bubble. But I've actually done a little research and you know, just like I do, Eric, where's Pat McAfee every Saturday morning during college football season. He's there for ESB and college game day. That day, September 20th, Illinois, who's ranked, and they're not normally ranked,

is coming to Indiana. And Indiana has more enthusiasm around their football game than they have in a long, long time. Our great close personal friend on the show here, gimmick attorney Mike Dawkins, has been a season ticket holder forever. And he's told me, kind of tongue in cheek, he goes in tailgates, goes and watches the first half, and then he would go outside to tailgate the second half because they weren't going to win and it didn't matter. It was a party.

That was then. This is now Indiana's badass and they're ranked. So it's hard for me to imagine where ESPN is not going to have Pat McAfee at game day in Indiana one mile away from where they normally do Raw or Smackdown in Indianapolis. The rumor is they're going to call it Russell. I think it'll be Pat McAfee themed. I think they'll pay off Brock Lesner and John Cena there. But imagine the cover.

if the number one rated show on the weekends in ESPN is game day you're going to be able to do angles that morning and pay them off that night oh my gosh this is like this is beyond a psilocybin mushroom induced wet dream yes for a wrestling promoter or at this point you're not a wrestling promoter you're a wrestling production studio and there is Nothing. I could have ever imagined an opportunity like this. The crossover, because of just the pop culture phenomenon that wrestling in general has become, whether it's Lucha or whatever, hardcore stuff. You know, globally, wrestling has become such a part of pop culture. And now for it to be able to efficiently and almost organically spread from sports entertainment or to ESPN, the common denominator, at least promotionally for this first event, to create the tone, get the sample from the audience, is utilizing Pat McAfee? How could you conceive of a better opportunity than that from a business perspective?

Unbelievable. Now, Eric, none of this has been announced, but I know that when it was first announced that they might be looking at moving Brock Lesnar and John Cena away from the Paris show and doing it in Indianapolis on that day. I know a lot of people were saying, why Indianapolis and why that day, oh, they're just picking on AEW. That is not it at all. This is a way to leverage the ESPN opportunity because if you've got the whole promotional vehicle of ESPN, during college football season, promoting this, and they may have that game in the afternoon,

and then this is the nighttime event, my God, what an opportunity. And here's the other part of it. And this is the part that I get excited about. And I don't know if other people are not. So I'm hesitant to get this granular. But there is a sizable portion. I don't know how big, but there's got to be a significant portion of the loyal ESPN, particularly over the weekends, you know, football fans, that just aren't into WWE.

Yes. I mean, it's stupid to think that every 18 to 49 year old male out there who likes sports and who likes, you know, testosterone-driven, you know, programming is also automatically a WWE fan, not the case. Perhaps, perhaps, likely, right? But they're not engaged on a weekly basis. This is, and it's a two-fold opportunity, but for WWE, it's an opportunity to, as I've been saying so much this morning, to migrate your audience that you currently have, expose them

to a completely different product. but now you've also got the opportunity for that portion of the ESPN audience that hasn't watched WWE in the last 15 years. There's a lot of them out there. But now they're going to be reintroduced to the product if it happens. Disclamoring that.

But if it happens, now the significant portion of the target audience that WWE is currently not connected to is going to be reintroduced to the new WWWB brand and a common denominator would be Pat McAfee in college football. For the love of all that's holy, that is like the coolest potentially potential strategy that one could think of. It's great. It's so smart.

I hope it happens. And it's smart because even if you're not a WWE fan, you know who John Sina is. John Sina's got the new peacemaker thing out. He's done more mainstream Hollywood stuff. So now you've got a bona fide Hollywood celebrity battling a UFC superstar. So if you're not even a WWE fan

in regards to Brock Lesnar, you're certainly familiar with his prize fights and the idea that Brock Lesnar is going to fight John Sina and his farewell tour, I mean, this is a huge opportunity for ESPN and WWE. And by the way, if you're an AEW fan like I am,

I want to remind you, don't take this personally. This isn't a negative thing. What's good for WWE and what's good for wrestling is good for AEW. Like, this is an opportunity for wrestling as a whole to be seen in a broader light by more people with more crossover. I don't see a negative in this for anybody, regardless of company.

Only for those mental giants in the internet wrestling community and the dipshits that write for them. Well, we'll stay tuned and see exactly what's going to happen, the good, the bad, and the ugly of September 20th. I can't wait for it. I'm ready for football season. It's, it's kicking off,

Eric. I mean, think about how excited I am for real American freestyle. I don't even know that you know this, but Alabama kicks their season off that day. Oh, whoa, this is life changing.

Against Florida State, not a scrub team, but Florida State versus Alabama is the same day as real American freestyle. And my dad wants to go. You know what a big college football fan, specifically an Alabama fan. He is. So dad and I are going to be watching.

that in a bar before we meander over to real American freestyle. September's going to be a blast. Oh, man, that is so, that's, well, you really are excited because that's like telling my family we're going to skip Christmas this year. Yes. You don't do that. You don't, you don't even bring it up. You don't think about that. So, thank you. And Larry. Wow. By the way, if you've missed it, Eric is bringing his legendary stories and business insight straight to your TikTok feed. That's right. Eric is now on TikTok and you can follow him at Real Eric Bischoff for bite-sized clips from the podcast and stay tuned because you never know when he might pop up live. That's at Real Eric Bischoff over on TikTok. Eric, our topic today is Terry Taylor, one of the gurus of professional wrestling, certainly behind the scenes.

I don't think a lot of our listeners really know his contributions behind the scenes. I think all of us know what a brilliant in-ring performance. former he was, but behind the scenes, I think his contributions even outweigh the stuff he did in front of the camera, don't you? By a mile. Yeah. I, look, I have got a great, I really enjoyed being around Terry Taylor. I saw him the last way around January.

I think when I did a WWE thing on LFG or something, whatever it was. And Terry and I had a great conversation. And we've had previous really good conversation. So we've been on very, very good terms and solid footing. for a number of years now. But that wasn't always the case. Terry was like, my relationship with Terry, I should say, because everybody else's, I'm sure, was different.

But for me, as his boss, I had so much respect, going back to what we were talking about with The Undertaker. What separates Terry Taylor from a lot of other people in those same roles as an agent, or in this case as a producer for WWE, are the ones with a phenomenal proven instinct and those that are just good at wrestling.

Terry was one of those people who had a really good instinct. And the way I really first started noticing it, and this is like the double-edged sword of Terry's personality back then, is he would just blurt shit, right, in a creative meeting. He always did it with a little bit of a, it was always kind of funny, sort of, in a stinging, biting kind of way, depending on the contacts and what we were talking about. And it was oftentimes pain in the ass, just rub people wrong. But here's the pattern that I saw with Kerry pretty early on, is those blurts, whatever you call him, that just immediately rolled right off his tongue immediately, you know, making a quick, snarky comment.

He was right. More often than he was wrong, he was right. The way he presented it sucked. And I'm guilty of this myself, by the way. Perhaps that's why I recognized it. But his instincts were on the money. There were other things that Terry made life more difficult for himself. in terms of the way he handled business and people and, you know, whatever.

Not my story. But I put up with all that just to get to the good stuff. Did I know he was talking to the dirt sheets? Yes. Could I prove it in a way that I could just put it out on a piece of paper and say, here's why I'm firing you. Now, eat this and go away. I probably would have done it.

I didn't have it, but I knew. So did everybody else. But I grew up with it because I learned to rely on people with really good instincts first, experience a close second, everything else doesn't matter. Terry had the instincts primarily and the experience, so I put up with a lot of shit from Jerry

that I wouldn't have put up with from anybody else. You know, I didn't know we were going to jump into this, but I do want to address it because we have talked about a lot on this show and on Bruce's show that if you read the observer and you read the torch, they would make no bones about it. back when Terry's in-ring career was happening. They were,

they were huge fans of Terry Taylor. And he was beloved amongst the smart mark crowd as a result, I think, of the, the tastemakers in Dave Meltzer and Wade Keller. And Dave in recent years has denied twice on two different occasions that Terry Taylor was a source.

And he even says he had exactly one brief conversation in person and it was out in the open at a WCW show in Oakland and the late 90s and that was the only time he had talked to him since like the red rooster days in the WWF but you just were like pretty matter of fact saying I know he talked to the newsletters I just couldn't prove it what made you think that when I would hear and maybe because Dave gets too cute for his own good he thinks he's way smarter than he really is he's really

transparent obvious and highly manipulative in the way he presents things whether it be numbers or anything else. What he thinks is nuanced subtleties are as clear as a bell to me. So when, and Dave is not a very creative person. He's probably good at memorizing stuff and retaining information, but he's not the most creative person I've ever talked to or heard speak. All you need to do is listen to it with his podcast or he calls it a radio show. What's the difference between what he does and what?

what we're doing, I'm not sure, but he always distinguishes himself against quote-unquote podcasters, another kind of manipulative little shell game he plays with the dipsets that follow him. Present company excluded. I was like, well, I'm on there every day, but what I would hear some of those quippy comments in a production meeting or in a creative meeting and that I would hear almost, if not verbatim, might as well

have been, within the context that we were talking about in a creative meeting, I'm sorry. Maybe Dave was talking to somebody else. The Fed it to Dave, and Dave do it and Terry knew it, whatever. I don't give a

fuck. It doesn't matter anymore. But no one is, including, especially Dave Belser, because he's beyond out of his freaking mind. I know it, and so did everybody else. It's so obvious when you hear it, the same terms being used within the same context or the same phraseology being used or making the same somewhat, you know, strong point

about something that relatively speaking in the context of the meeting that it came from was kind of like whatever. Terry may have camped out on that point. Nobody else gave a shit, but all of a sudden it's in the observer. I'm sorry. You don't have to be a CIA operative to see some of this yet. It should be obvious if you look for it. I'll tell you what, if it was 1993 and I had this at my fingertips, I would say,

Hey, Terry, we need to get you on Delete Me, because Delete Me makes it easy, quick, and safe to remove your personal data online at a time when surveillance and data breaches are common enough to make everyone vulnerable. You may not know this, but Databrook, actually make a profit off of your data. Your data is a commodity. Anyone on the web can buy your private details. This, of course, can lead to identity theft or fishing attempts, even harassment.

But now you can protect your privacy with Delete Me. Now, what do these data brokers do? Well, they're collecting your name, your contact info, your social security number, your home address, even info about your family members. And all of this can be compiled by data brokers and then sold online. And I deal with this every day. and my real life job doing mortgages, I can't tell you how many times a year

I come across somebody who thinks they're ready to buy a house and we find out, nope, you've got a bunch of bad credit you got to deal with. And they're like, wait, I've never done business with them. Their identity was stolen and they had no idea. In some cases, it had been going on for years. I want you to take control of your data and keep your private life private

by signing up for Delete Me. We've got a special deal for our listeners right now. You can get 20% off your Delete Me plan. when you go to join delete me.com slash 83 weeks. And use our promo code 83 weeks at checkout. That's the only way to get 20% off. You got to go to join delete me.com slash 83 weeks. Enter the code 83 weeks at checkout.

That's join delete me.com slash 83 weeks. And the code is 83 weeks. So let's talk about Terry Taylor. I think when you first come into the company, he's doing the tailor-made man thing, which is basically a million-dollar man. rip off. Not the best creative, not his fault. He does go to the WWF. He has a short run there as terrific Terry Taylor. And then he comes right back and he's going to be back in WCW. So let's talk

about the torch and the observer from the first week of September of 1993. The observer would say Gene Oakerlin is scheduled to start on September 10th and we're probably co-host the second hour of TBS. Terry Taylor looks like he'll be hosting the Sunday main event, so Michael Hayes will be back in the ring again. So it was obviously a big deal to get a name and a talent who was so well established with that wrestling audience. You talk about credibility. Gene Oakland had it with the professional wrestling audience. But you're also bringing in Terry Taylor to host Sunday night main event. Was that a you call? I mean, because I know that once upon a time you were running television. What did you like about Terry behind the

Mike. Again, good instincts, new, new, so familiar, intimately so with the action in the ring, which makes him a great analyst, whether play by play or color. He was more of a color guy than a play by play guy, obviously. But Andy, you know, camera friendly, he was a good looking guy. Oh, yeah. And had the right energy, had the credibility, knew the product, knew the play, players. It was just a matter of getting them a little bit, you know, more comfortable than he

already was in that role. I think it was a good choice. He does wind up hosting Power Hour with you. I think that's interesting, the idea that you guys were doing the show together. Did you think you guys had good chemistry together? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, Gary also has a pad, probably still does. A really good sense of timing and humor. So he could be a straight guy. He could be a smart ass. He had a great range. And I love working with people that had range because you could have more fun doing it. And if you're locked in a booth with a co-host that you're not having really any fun with, you're just going through the motions and getting the job done. It's a great job and you're fortunate and grateful for it, but it's not any fun. But if you're happy to get somebody

that's got a quick wit, fast on his or her feet, knows the product, can improv. That's a pretty good time, which makes better television. And that's what Terry had. I do want to just give some proper context here.

I think when he comes back, he's only 38 years old. And these days in wrestling, we would say, that's not very old at all. I mean, half of our favorite wrestlers on programming today are north of that,

maybe more, some shows. But in this era, I did feel like, like for a lot of guys, they think, hey, 40 is when I need to start winding it down. And Terry Taylor is obviously a guy who was a, was a very capable in-ring performer, but it did feel like he was dealt some bad hands. I mean, recently the WWE vault over on YouTube uploaded wrestle fest 88.

And it was from July 31st to Milwaukee in the outdoor stadium there. And they had Kurt Henning wrestling Terry Taylor on a WWF show in 88. They were not called Mr. perfect in the red rooster, but we know one of those guys got an incredible gimmick and the other not so much. So maybe it was the luck of the draw from the old box of gimmicks, but it felt like at times, the man, if it wasn't for bad luck, Harry Taylor'd have no luck at all. So I appreciated that he was trying things behind the scenes, but as he's doing commentary with you, do you feel like this was a placeholder because he really did still want to be in the ring? Everybody that I

worked with in creative in any role, especially in creative, anybody that I worked with who had been a former wrestler at any point in their career, still wanted to get back in the ring. Got it. Some more so than others, it was clear. Terry was just waiting for the opportunity. He wasn't pushing it. He didn't campaign for it.

I don't know, we ever even talked about it, but it was always there. And you take someone like, I think Greg Gagne and Mike Graham both put into the same kind of category. These are two guys that at one point and time were very involved in a very successful territory. You know, in the case of Greg, you know, Greg had pretty because of his relationship. with his dad and you know he was the tag team champions along with jim brunzel for such a long time call it what you want i mean gregg was very talented but great never looked like a like a wrestler looked back in the 70s you go back and look at him he's you know it looks like a golfer maybe but he doesn't look like a professional wrestler he'd be okay today because the standards are different

but back then yeah not so much but he was good in the ring his promos were okay same with Jim Brunzel, same amount of abilities, really. But they never achieved their, you know, by the time their careers were over, any chance for them to have a career in the ring was over with two. More Greg than Mike, I mean, Mike could still get in the ring from time to time. I think Dusty, you know, let them have some matches from time to time to kind of keep that itch scratched, so to speak. But by the time both of those guys got into creative, both of them in different ways were great contributors because they did have a good, they had great experience, they had decent instincts, better than decent, but they couldn't get over the resentment.

No matter who they worked with, there was a level of, I don't know if resentment is the right word. Perhaps it's just envy, I don't know what the word would be, but these guys almost resent. And resent is probably the word. Almost resented that some of the younger talent were getting an opportunity that they wished they could have. And some of them actually believe they could get in and do it. Some of them were just frustrated and resentful, but it always revealed itself. In one way, shape, or form over time, that became very obvious to me. Similar to the patterns that I see sometimes and what we're talking about with dirt sheets

and leaks and shit like that, that's always the challenge of taking somebody that was a former wrestler, particularly one that didn't make it to the top. maybe only made it to Midcard or so, and then you transition them into a producer's role or agent's role or even a creative role. They have to go through that period of time where they actually get themselves excited about this new role because a large part of them, the part of them that drove them to get into the wrestling business and become a professional wrestler anyway, that bitch still lives down deep inside somewhere. And you've got to learn to manage that.

And I've just seen that over the years. You know, and there are people that, you know, put their career behind them, that part of their career behind them, and walk right into a new opportunity, embrace the hell out of it, and kick ass. And sometimes you're better behind the scenes than they ever could have in front of the camera. But you've got to get there on your own. It doesn't happen automatically. And for the most part, it's rare that people make that transition quickly and easily. I want to give you some quotes from the torch. This was going to come out on the torch issue dated Christmas Day, 1993.

Wade would write, Terry Taylor, who was said to be quietly campaigning for the head booking job, should WCW decide to release Dusty from his position, appeared on the December 18th edition of Russell Radio USA. He was asked some questions, and here are the answers. On his relationship with WCW, Terry Taylor said something like, I have a contract for one year with WCW. If I'm just going to be promoted as a preliminary wrestler,

I'm not interested in doing that. Considering my reputation and skills, my ability to talk on television, and the fact that I'm drunk free and can pass a test at any time, I would like to be able to entertain the people after intermission instead of before. But if WCW doesn't think

that's what they want for me, then I'll stay a broadcaster. I'll sit next to talk Tony Chivani and talk like crazy. do you remember him campaigning for the head booking job no because in 1993 that wasn't my focus i was i didn't intend to be involved i wasn't going to be involved um so he made i don't know what campaigning means you know it's a dirt cheat report so whatever that means however that's defined in the context i don't remember that no there was nobody who was involved involved in the office that had been a former wrestler who wasn't hoping that they were going to be the head booker or have a prominent role in the creative process. That's kind of like everybody. In that respect, Terry was no different. Now, Terry did have a loud mouth. Terry would come out and say stupid shit like that, which maybe not at the time would have gotten my attention quite as much. But now I would. It's like, dude, you're campaigning in public now. It's embarrassing for you. You just don't know it because you're campaigning to wrestling marks.

which, you know, read Dave Meltzer's Dirt Sheet or whoever's Dirt Sheet. So you're campaigning to the lowest form of life on the television planet, which is not a good look for you, Terry. And secondly, it makes it more difficult, I would have said this, by the way, it would make it more difficult to make a good transition into that role because it looks like he forced his way in. So it's just a bad move. But that was, now, when I told you early on,

we first started talking about Terry, Terry was his own worst enemy. He knew that. We laugh about it now. But Terry got in his own way more than anybody else tried to get in his way. He created more obstacles for himself than anybody else did. He just didn't know it at the time. What do you make of him saying, I want to wrestle after intermission?

Why wouldn't he feel that way? If you're a former wrestler, and look, I don't know Terry's injury history. I don't ever know of him being injured. I'm sure he was prior to me getting to WCW or anything else he did outside of WCW. But he was sturdy, meaning he could go, he could go hard, he could go well, he could go consistently, and he was an injury problem. he wanted to be back in the ring. He's an entertainer. He was driven to entertain.

He was entertaining behind a microphone because that was his only option, but his heart was in the ring, and he was only 38 years old. In today's environment, he might be getting this first big break in his career. That's right. Back then, it was kind of aging out, right? Or at least that was the perception.

But in his heart, I'm sure, he felt like he was 25. And like, why am I behind the desk when I can go out there and do this better than most people that are doing it today? He wasn't wrong, but that's what that was. And that's why he would go out and, you know, do interviews with dirt sheet geeks appealing to the lowest common denominator in the television universe. But that's, you know, that's what happens when emotion overcomes better judgment. A month later, it would be the headline story in the torch. Dusty Rhodes reign as head booker of WCW came to an amicable end last week. Roads will remain on the WCW staff as a senior consultant,

plus return to the spotlight with an on-air performer role, presumably commentary. Looking duties will be fulfilled, at least temporarily by a committee headed by Eric Fischoff, Greg Gagne, and Mike Graham. WCW management wants to hire a permanent replacement for roads, and rumors are flying around Kevin Sullivan, Terry Funk, Terry Taylor, and Eddie Gilbert as candidates. Do you remember that?

Do you think Terry Taylor ever had a real shot? No. No. There were other issues that we're not even going to talk about. No, that was never going to happen. Let me ask, you know, I know that we're not trying to put everybody's business on Front Street, but you mentioned earlier that Terry Taylor, obviously, very capable in-ring performer, in great shape, has a good look.

I mean, let's just say it plainly. He's a good-looking dude. Is he a ladies man? I never hung out with him. That wasn't my issue and that wasn't my concern. It's just, you know, there were just, you know, personal interactions, jokes. There were just things that, look, WCW, despite the narrative, and look, it was the Wild Wild West in many respects.

I'm not suggesting it was, you know, IBM at all from a corporate perspective, culturally. It was still a professional wrestling business. But even so, and even back at that time, there was a big there was a it was highly you know HR issues were highly sensitive issues especially in WCW because it was rife with all kinds of internal accusations complaints to HR all kinds of it's look these are not over the top you know headline grabbing issues there probably happened on the normal course of every business But because there were some big issues in WCW, there was a real focused HR microscope, magnifying glass maybe, on WCW's issues.

And Terry, because he was quick to let shit roll off his tongue, was a problem child. Not so much so that it created lawsuits and arguments and fistfights and shit like that. But enough that it was an issue. He was corporately a young kid. He'd never worked in a corporate environment before, especially in one that was under a magnified glass. So seemingly little issues weren't so seemingly little with regard to Terry because it wasn't like there was just one.

So look, I don't want to paint a bad picture, Terry. These were relatively minor issues. not significant enough for HR to go, you have to get rid of him. But significant enough that if I were to put him in a senior management position, I'd have questions to answer. I'm going to answer him.

I don't want to do it. It wasn't worth it to me. And it wasn't like I was, oh, God, maybe if I figure out a way to work, carry into this. Jerry was good. I had a lot of confidence for all the reasons we talked about earlier. Instincts experience, blah, blah, blah, blah.

And he could lay out a match too, by the way. He could really, really, really, really. Greg Gagne was good at that too. Really, really, really do a good job, laying out a match. And the psychology that needs to go with that, that's probably what I should have said. Terry, like Greg Gagne, the one thing that they both had that I really respected was psychology.

Greg learned it from Vern. I don't know where Terry got it. but they both had really, really good abilities in terms of teaching someone how to reach the level of psychology they need within the body of a match. Anyway, but I didn't want them bad enough to fight the fight. So, no, there's a never serious contender for those reasons. Well, he's crushing it on commentary. Chris Cruz and Larry Zubisco would host Power Hour from the studio,

Tony and Terry Taylor would call the matches. And when WCW got clearances in Australia, it would be Chris Cruz and Terry Taylor there doing the commentary. And as we roll towards the end of, I guess we'll call it early February of 94, the torch has something really nice to say about Terry Taylor. He says, Terry Taylor,

who calls the matches taped from Disney with Tony Chivani, is in many ways the best color commentator in wrestling. He's quick-witted. But unlike some announcers who rely exclusively, on that skill he puts over the matches in the ring and obviously follows the storylines and cares about them getting over no matter how tough explaining wcw stories can be sometimes and the chemistry between taylor and shivani is strong this really catches me off guard because i have to admit i don't remember his commentary that much but i

almost wonder if it was so well reviewed and so well received and you're singing phrase here you think terry just didn't have a passion for commentary because it sounds like Like he could have been one of the all-time guys here that could have been synonymous with commentary in the same way other former wrestlers like Jesse Ventura or Taz have been. Even Corey Graves. Do you think he just wasn't as passionate about commentary? Because it seems like he really had a knack for it. That's exactly what we talked about a few minutes ago. He was great at it.

And I agree with you. If he would have embraced it and thrown himself 100% into commentary, he could still be doing it today on a very high level. because he was that good and he had the look and he understood see that's why psychology which is whatever but it's gone for a variety of reasons there's not one reason it's not just in one company psychology is storytelling it's almost the same thing in many respects but knowing the emotional response you need to create in order to get to the response you really want later on in the match that's a different kind of understanding of psychology that's a storytelling approach to psychology it's rare most people that are listening to this won't even understand

what the hell I'm saying. They won't get it because it can't. Not because they're not intellectually capable of understanding it, but because they can't relate to what I'm saying because it's never been in that position before. It's like me building, you know, I got my pilot license once. It doesn't mean I can fly a jet, right?

You have exposure, but you don't fully understand. And when you fully understand how important psychology is to storytelling in terms of managing the emotional arc of a story and getting exactly where you want or as close to it as possible, where you want to be at the end of the story is an art.

It's not a science, it's an art. Terry had it. He could apply it to his color commentary because he could get you inside of the head of the wrestler in the ring that he's talking about. That's how he was able to get them over because he understood the psychology

and could articulate it and paint a picture in a way, way that the audience was seeing something that they wouldn't have otherwise noticed or understood that's a great color commentator that could achieve that right terry had that but like we talked about earlier he was only doing it because it was the only opportunity he had not because it was the opportunity he wanted and that's 100% of the difference let's talk a little bit because WCW come March is going to debut a new setting and a new set for WCW Saturdays. Tony Chivani and Bobby Heenan are going to become the permanent commentators.

Gene O'Kerlund will be co-hosting and conducting the interviews. So it's a big deal. You know, we know we've got Jesse Ventura on the way out and we've got Tony Chivani now welcoming in Gene O'Korlin and Bobby the Brain Heenan. We've also got Gordon Tully and Larry Zavisco on the squad. but it's written here in the torch this new lineup signifies a decrease in exposure for Jesse Ventura and the departure of Terry Taylor from the color commentary lineup is that is that the issue you've just got too much brand identity and guys like Gordon Solie and and Gene Oakerland

and Bobby Heenan and Tony Chivani or is it these other off the field antics do you think that cost him this color commentary gig here it I mean, I don't specifically remember. If Terry got let go, it wasn't because he didn't have the talent in his skill sets weren't depreciated because they were. So if he got to let go, it may have been an issue that, you know. Let me give you some context.

He sticks around as a preliminary wrestler into August before he disappears. So we don't hear anything about him after August 93, at least for a little bit. He pops up and does a pilot TV taping for the AWF. That's the same company that had Sergeant Slaughter and Tito Santana and things like that. But I don't really know if he was officially fired, but it does feel like he loses his color commentary gig, becomes an in-ring performer through August.

Looks like he leaves for a bit. And then he pops back up. I just can't remember that period of time. Yeah. So does it make sense? Just not the details of the announcer shuffle. Gordon Soli really didn't do that much at that time. He was pretty limited.

So it wasn't like I had to make room for Gordon solely. I wanted to keep Gordon because he was an institution. He might not have been the way we perceived Jim Ross today because Jim has had so much more exposure nationally to a much bigger audience than Gordon ever had. But Gordon, to me, he was an institution. So you're not getting rid of an institution. institution. You will find something for the institution to do. But it wouldn't have been

something that it wouldn't have been a decision with regard to shuffling announcers that would have forced Terry Taylor out of an announced position. It had to have been something else. Yeah. I mean, it's clear that Terry Taylor did not stink at commentary. And if you never want to stink, Mando is your hookup. I got to brag on the Mando four and one acidified cleansing bar. It's what Eric and I are both going to be using in Cleveland because we know how to pack smarter with Mando. Listen, if you've ever become a road warrior and you're always traveling, you know what your man bag has to look like. I got to have the shampoo and the face wash and the body wash and the deodorant. What if you could replace all of that with one bar? That's what you can do

with Mando. It also works as a shaving leather. Hell, I guess that makes it five and one. But I know for sure is the acidified cleansing bar simplifies your hygiene routine. now your bag has more room for other stuff. And by the way, did I mention Mendo's sweat control deodorant stick? If you haven't tried this already, what are you waiting for? It stops odor before it even starts. By the way, it's just for your underarms. We're talking about the stick and how about sweat control?

Yeah, this is not just odor blocking. It's not just masking with fragrance. We're talking about fighting sweat too. That's like double protection. It's so simple. A couple of swipes under each arm. You're going to be fresh and dry. all day. And most importantly, it's safe for all skin types. It was developed by a doctor.

It's high quality. It's got premium ingredients. You see, every ingredient serves a purpose. There's no fillers. There's no junk. This isn't just your average deodorant or antiperspirant. It combat sweat. It stops odor. It respects your skin. And Mando holds up, even in the heat, even on the move. You see, it was created by a doctor who saw firsthand her normal B.O. was just being misdiagnosed and mistreated. But Mando's been clinically proven to block odor all day and even control it for up to 72 hours.

You heard me bragging about the stick, but they've also got a spray deodorant. It's aluminum-free and ideal for those hard-to-reach places. No matter what you pick, all the products for Mando are baking soda-free and paraben-free. And you're going to smell great too. Check out these scents. Bourbon leather, cloverwoods, Mount Fuji,

pro-sport. Mando's been clinically proven to control odor better than just a shower with soap alone. And Mando Starter Pack is perfect for new customers. It comes with solid stick deodorant, cream tube deodorant and two free products for your choice, like the mini body wash and deodorant wipes. I want to go back to the cream tube deodorant because I know some of you hear that and think, you're in a tube.

I don't want that. Yeah, you do. And so does your balls and around your asshole. All those hard to reach places where you start to smell and lather that shit up with Samando. You're going to smell good for three days. and I don't know what makes our partners like to do the things they like to do, but I know what makes them not want to.

Get rid of the stink, get some Mando and even get free shipping. You can even get a special offer for our listeners. What about new customers getting 20% off sitewide with our exclusive code? Yeah, just go use the code 83 weeks right now at shopmando.com. Dude, you'll get 20% off site wide plus free shipping. That's shopmando. S-H-O-M-A-N-D-O.com. Please support our show and tell us.

them we sent you. Mando's got you covered. Protect your pits and smell great doing it. Let's talk a little bit about the 900 line incident. I don't know if this brings a bell to you, but in August the 95, and as a reminder, on Labor Day, at the very end of the month, very beginning of September, that's when we launched this new show called Nitro. I don't know if you heard of it, but it was kind of a big deal. And Eric was looking to expand and create new opportunities for things that we've never seen before. So he's talking to guys like Sabu, and Al Snow, and Eddie Guerrero, and Dean Malenko. And the torch had to cover this in mid-August, because I guess Terry was a little frustrated.

Blade would write, the most controversial and passionate comments were heard by just a hundred or so people. Tuesday on the WCW 900 line, booking committee member Terry Taylor reacted to the frustration of not being able to sign some of the free agents they were going after in order to bring the match quality in WCW up a notch. specifically Al Snow, Eddie Guerrero, and Dean Malinko. Terry said, when I started out 120 years ago, say what you want, but the bottom line was when a guy wanted to be a professional wrestler, he made long trips, he made very little money, he paid the price, he bled and swept.

And the only way he got paid was according to what he helped draw. If people did not pay five bucks to watch a wrestler, he didn't make any money. So we worked harder, we banded together, we had a camaraderie for each other and a love for each other. No matter how much you dislike the guy, you were wrestling or liked him, it didn't matter because you could see the results each week when you went back to the same towns. If you saw more butts in the seats, you made more money

according to that. Well, it offends me and ultimately hacks me off. I very, very strongly feel that these young wrestlers who read these inside rags about professional wrestling that listen to some other 900 lines, say how great they were to have an opportunity to come into WCW, but then don't want to unless they have creative control over who they're going to wrestle and they want to come in for a certain dollar figure without ever proving themselves. WCW has tried to give three-month open contracts to a bunch of young, good-looking talent, and they've turned it down because they want more money.

They haven't shown a love for the business. They haven't shown loyalty to WCW, and it makes me sick that guys like me and Terry Funk and the older guys who've been in professional wrestling most of our lives that sacrificed when we couldn't get out of the car, we still went and performed because people made money or paid money to watch us, and that meant something to us. We've got Al Snow coming into WCW to try out with his nose up in the air, saying,

you better sign me now for a lot of money before somebody else does. Hey, take a hike, Jack. You've never drawn a dime anywhere. You've been in the business 12 years and nobody knows who you are. Your attitude is why. We offered Eddie Guerrero a chance to come in for three months at a very healthy dollar figure that he can negotiate up. He turns his back on it because it's not enough.

And it's five times what he's making now. Then Dean Malenko, the shooter. Wow. We have an opportunity to give him a three-month tryout where he can turn his back and walk away and negotiate and make more money. But instead of showing a good attitude for himself, for the business he supposedly loves, that his father was in for 30 years and broke his sons into, quote, I can't come in for less than this dollar figure and I need more for pay per views

and I've got to have creative control, end quote. Well, it makes me sick to my stomach that these guys have never done anything, never been anywhere, believe their own publicity and won't pay the price or even give a company like WCW who's willing to give them an opportunity, give them the consideration to do the right thing. And that's to at least try out and see if you can earn your money. Buddy, he's cutting a promo here. This is all over the newsletters.

Do you hear about this? Do you get a heads up? It's not like you're calling the hotline every day. Does this even cross your radar? It may have. It probably did. That's every conversation I've had to sit through for the third. 33 years, whatever it was, that I was active in the business, whenever I sat down with, I mean, that's not like Oly Anderson without the F-Bops.

It's just, I've heard this, back in my day, we did this, we sacrificed our bodies, we went through, we've done so much for this business, and we don't get the recognition we should get. And these young punks don't understand. If I hear that story, any variation of the same story that I've heard since the first time I sat down with Vern Gagne, Wahoo-McDaniel, and Ray the crippler Stevens, is when I first started hearing those stories, and they all sound the same back in 1987. and they probably will continue to sound the same in 2027. The stories stay the same, the contest is slightly different, and the names change. First off, I don't know what Terry was talking about, about offering three-month contracts. Maybe Terry and Kevin did, I don't know what this situation was. I don't recall that.

So if there were conversations with those guys, I was not a part of it. The only conversations I remember with Eddie Guerrero and Dean Malenko and Chris Benoit was in my office directly, not through somebody else. And none of that included three-month trial runs, number one. I don't know how much of what Terry said back then was accurate. not saying true. I'm saying accurate. There's not enough information there for me to judge. But let's just pretend, let's go what if. What if the way Terry laid it out is absolutely 100% accurate and somebody in a creative committee wanted to bring them in to try to sell them to me and to WCW

and sell WCW to them? Yeah, sure, a three-month trial can work. But back at that time, remember, we're talking about 1995. Now, you know, a year previous, we brought in Hogan. Hogan had creative control. Yes, he fucking did. He's the only one that did, but he did. And there were, the guarantees were always a problem for WCW. I came as a talent on a guarantee. Everybody wrestling for WCW when I got there in 1991 was a wrestler under contract for WCW. The guaranteed money existed from day one in WCW. So when a non-guarantee, someone who was working the independent scene came into WCW, yes, more than likely they negotiated or attempted to negotiate in some cases a guaranteed contract similar to people

that they knew and were friends with within WCW. Why would you not do that? So what I'm saying, and the reason I'm spending so much time on this is you can look at, If this case was true, Eddie Guerrero, for example, is picking it out as someone who wanted a better guarantee financially because he knew his friends were all getting it. Well, why wouldn't he want it? Why wouldn't he ask for it? His friends are getting it. WCW has a history of giving it. Why should I be so special that I get kicked in the ass and have to take less than what everybody else I know gets? It's natural for them to want. more and ask for more. By the way, in 1991 and 1992 and 1993, WCW's creative was less than stellar. WCW, nobody booking WCW had a reputation for great storylines or getting people over. not to say people didn't get over at that time. But that's WCW creative. People would always refer to Vince as a creative genius.

Even back in the early 90s when I first started talking to people who came from WWE to WCW, Vince was always put on a pedestal from a creative perspective because he created WWF at the time and created the big stars and the perception that he created Hulk Hogan, although he really didn't. We all know that now. The perception was that he did, right? WCW didn't have that. WCW had the opposite of that.

WCW had fucking robocop. Robocop. Google the shit. I had nothing to do with it. I wasn't even freaking there. But that was a reputation. So, yeah, when guys would come in that knew what the hell was going on, you're going to throw your career in the hands of a company that had a track record with Robocop.

Yeah, you're not going to do that. At least you're going to try not to. So Terry's or anybody else's disdain that was in a position like Terry who realized subconsciously or consciously that he kind of missed the window. he was on the downside these kids are on the upside he knows that and he resents it which is why the context for the way he presented that as you read it to me it's bitter it's resentful yeah it's angry it's only Anderson well we know eventually things do get worked out with Dean Malenko and Eddie Guerrero Al Snow took issue with this and said hey I was

pretty pissed off about this the deal is i came in for a tryout eric was happy said he'd send me an offer in a week two weeks went by i didn't hear anything i reached out to w w e they were interested in advance of a tryout and gave me an offer and i took it were there any hard feelings as you recall with you and al snow at any point never i have always gotten along we still get along today. We have never not gotten along. He's a he's I like hanging out with Al and and no, there was never an issue. I want to mention something else that I know Terry Taylor was helpful with or I've heard. I don't know if this is true. Is it true that he helped train a lot of the celebrities for their first in ring performances guys like Steve Mongo McMichael or Kevin Green or later on

Dennis Rodman and Carl Malone? Would he be helpful with that? Yeah. I yes. No, I can't remember specific incidents when Terry was training a specific athlete. But like I said earlier, right, there were certain things. You had to put up with, you know, kind of an off-color office person every once in a while. By that, I mean, just inappropriate shit, college frat boy shit more than anything. But still an issue. But I put up with that because I knew what I could trust. He had the instinct.

Remember what I said earlier about his ability to teach the psychologist. that goes into a move, as opposed to just teaching the mechanics of a move, Terry excelled at that, along with Greg Gagne. Terry excelled at that, more so than Greg, even. So, yeah, if there was a need for someone that could teach the psychology along with the physicality, because this person that was coming in has never been experienced to it before, yeah I would attach Terry Taylor at that person's hip

there was nobody in the company better at that really let's fast forward to 1996 towards the end of 96 we would see Terry Taylor do a prodigy chat which was really popular back then and the wrestling lariat Dave Scher's newsletter would sort of recap some of this and I guess in the prodigy chat

he was asked can you tell us what kind of backstage work you do at WCW and Terry explained I help with match content I help the director on live shows from a wrestling perspective, understand what's going to happen so he doesn't miss it. I help the young guys with psychology. It almost sounds like if you watch the unreal show, and I know you caught some of that,

he was sort of in the abyss spot in one of those clips on the raw debut on Netflix. He's the producer for the match or the agent for the match, but he also has an idea of what's coming because he's talked to the guys ahead of time. So he's giving commands to the truck so they can ready camera one, camera two, and don't miss this from that angle and all that. how how great was terry at that because it feels like everything we've talked about so far behind the scenes he's batten a thousand how was he as an agent communicating with the truck eric probably batten a thousand he's probably still a thousand he that and that's a part of he was so good

at that he was just naturally good at you didn't have to teach him he didn't he just he was so good at it and again because he understood the psychology of it that's how you're able, helpful to communicate to the truck. That's why you understand what's going on the map. So mechanics are important. Yes, you've got to memorize. You've got to know what's coming next from a physical point of view. But he's also watching the drama play out in the match and making sure that the drama is

captured. That's an eye. That's where the art comes in. That's where you can take somebody with the same amount of time in the wrestling business, perhaps even in many respects the same type of experience in the wrestling business. One person has that instinct. and understanding of psychology and the other person just has good matches. That's the difference right there.

All right, guys, into the room, Dick first. Blue Chew isn't just a tablet. It's a cheat code for your crotch. Stronger, harder, longer lasting. Like somebody gave your downstairs a pep talk and a gym membership, Blue Chew is the original brand offering chewable tablets for better sex. Sometimes I take a blue chew. It'll make standing in line a little easier.

It gives me something to lean on. Guys, this isn't just about performance. It's about your legacy or your, or your third legacy. Give her group chat something to talk about. Nothing makes you more of a legend than a little blue chew. Go discover your options right now at bluechew.com. And we've got a special deal for our listeners.

As always, get your first month of Blue Chew free. She's the promo code 83 weeks at checkout and pay five bucks for shipping. That's it. Join Blue Chew's mission to upgrade humanity one thrust at a time. Head on over to bluechew.com for details and important safety information. And a big thanks to Blue Chew for sponsoring today's podcast. podcast and Eric's Weiner. I can't wait for us to talk about Terry Taylor in long form here today because he's one of those guys who I feel like if you watched his in ring work, you knew

he was talented and we always hear his name behind the scenes. But oftentimes it's it's with a tone or a tinge of negativity because he did have some sort of a relationship with the dirt sheets. But I feel like we're getting the full context of just how talented he was and how monumental his contributions were to professional wrestling. This prodigy chat included questions like if Kevin Sullivan can book and work matches, why will WCW not let you work? And he's saying, hey, I'm going to hit Eric up about that. He's 41 and he says, I quit two years ago because I got hurt.

Everybody says my knees are real bad, but they aren't that bad. And he'd like to wrestle again. He's even admitting that he keeps up with international stuff. Kenta Kobashi, we heard before was someone he, felt like was probably the best wrestler in the world, and he's even talking about the war between CMLL and AAA down in Mexico, and he knows all the details about the nitty-gritty there. But when he's asked in this prodigy chat, what do you think about the dirt sheets? Terry said, I have mixed feelings. If they were objective, journalistic reviews of what's

happening, I wouldn't have a problem. The guys who've never been in the ring, forming an opinion of guys who have been, I have a problem. If they say it's an editorial, okay. But don't say you're an expert if you've never done it. One thing we should understand is the guys who are put over in the newsletters are the ones supplying the inside information. Otherwise, the newsletters will have no sources.

Next time you read one, consider that. The idea that it's Terry Taylor saying this jumps off the page to me. Terry understands psychology. Yeah. He's throwing you off the sit, Matt. And by the way, that's not just Terry Taylor.

Eddie Gilbert did this. Rick, he did this. If you call them often enough, they'll name awards after you folks. It's just the way it is. When we get to 97, we would see something pop up here that is worth mentioning.

Eric Bischoff announced to WCW wrestlers and staff at the May 12th Nitro in Baltimore that Kevin Sullivan began a hiatus of two months to deal with personal problems and burnout. Recently, Sullivan had been fighting off many distractions and pressures that were taking a toll on his life, both personally and with his family. Bischoff addressed the crew of wrestlers after Nitro and told them Sullivan would be returning to his post as booker later to summer. And other WCW sources say Bischoff asked Sullivan to take time off to get his life and health together, and others are skeptical that he will actually return.

Booking by committee will take over WCW for the short term, long-time assistance to Sullivan, Gary Taylor, and Paul Orndorf, will pick up most. of the slack Sullivan left behind with Arne Anderson and Jimmy Hart also helping backstage at the events. So let's talk about this. Obviously, you and I, big Kevin Sullivan fans. We all know the story. He was going through a pretty messy, ugly divorce. I think that was taking a personal toll on him. There's a legendary story that nobody talks about very often that he had maybe, well, for lack of a better word, overdosed at a nitro and it was a bad scene. So he needed to go get better, but I think a lot of people would have thrown him out,

you know, like throwing a baby out with the bathwater, but you didn't do that. We haven't ever spoken about this. And I think it was in deference to Kevin, but he's no longer with us. I'm wondering now, I mean, I love that you gave him some grace. You understood, hey, man, he's going through it. He's been put through the paces. We've seen him at his best and he's going through a tough time now. I'm going to, I'm going to hang in there with him.

I like what that says about you, Eric. Can you expand on that? Not really. I mean, that's just the way I felt. Maybe I had a little more empathy than some, simply because firsthand knew the kind of pressure he was under, just in that role. Very few people before him lasted more than a year or two.

it's a ridiculously intense position to be in. The mistake I made, which probably complicated some of his issues, was letting him wrestle. That was a mistake on my part. His part for wanting to, my part for allowing it to happen, right? He should have only been booking. It would have made things a little easier for him in a long run. But he was a good guy and a talented one. And the incident you're talking about when he OD'd, he took a product that was available over the counter at the time.

It wasn't like he was shooting up heroin backstage. He took an over-the-counter nutraceutical, too much of it while it was still legal, GHB specifically. But you could purchase it at GMC. so just want to clarify that because when we say overdose people jump to or heroin or something that wasn't it he was doing the same thing a lot of guys did that was legal to do he just did too much of it and he had a reaction to it to me that was not like a fireable offense it was a stupid decision and a bad choice okay i can get over stupid decisions and bad choices if that's the one

worse that we can figure it out that's kind of the approach i took to it well i appreciate that you did because you know i mean we've heard guys get fired in the w vince didn't like their tie and here you are giving a lot of grace to a guy who really deserved it and had dedicated his life to the company and well in his absence that creates an opportunity for terry taylor um kevin nash is also going to start to move up the ranks a little bit of bit inside the confines of WCW. Would you say 97 is where you and Nash start to get more on the same page about creative stuff?

By 97, I was much more involved in creative and didn't feel the need to have someone actually being the head of creative because I felt comfortable with my ability to make decisions. You can argue whether they were good or bad. I'll let the performance of the company do by speaking for me. thank you, but good or bad, right or wrong, I didn't feel the need to bring someone in over the top of the existing team because I had more confidence in my ability to oversee it.

Still reliant upon me. I still didn't have, I wasn't overconfident in my creative abilities, but I was as confident as I should have been. We should mention that he's getting rave reviews behind the scenes we're talking about in Kevin Sullivan's absence. When we go to the Great American Bash review, it said from an organizational standpoint, it's a night and day difference

with Terry Taylor running things as the announcers fed the eventual storylines much better than when they appeared to go out and call matches with no clue as to what was going on. Terry Taylor gets a lot of credit for helping prep the announcers. And the following week or two weeks later, wrestlers are raving about it to Wade.

And even to the point where by the end of July comes, he's talking about the Orlando tapings and Dave would say overall morale was really high Terry Taylor had all the matches planned ahead of time so wrestlers would show up in the morning and know who they were working with and win under the old system they would show up

and have to stay all day and sometimes not even work because the schedule was being done as the day went on that's something we don't spend a lot of time talking about but I know that back in the Crockett era J.J. Dillon got a lot of credit for keeping dusty who was a genius organized. They felt like JJ was a great organizational help just as far as keeping things on track. Like Dusty would book, you know, on the same show on the same day. You know,

if there's maybe Philadelphia and Baltimore, he'd have the same talent on both shows. Well, clearly they can't do that. Was that a strong suit of Terry's? He was really strong from an organizational standpoint. I think organizational skill was a definitely a wrong point compared to Kevin Sullivan, right, probably compared to Rick Flair. And it's not unusual that when people are really creative, like Rick Flair, like Dusty Rhodes, generally the organizational skill set isn't that strong. Conversely, when you've got somebody that's really skilled organizationally, while they probably have something to contribute creatively, that's not their strong suit, made Terry, again, a little more unique, along with his feel for

psychology as it relates to wrestling, in that he was an organized guy. That was really creative. So, yeah, these are aspects of Terry that often don't, to your point earlier, don't really get discussed. But there's a reason he's, by the way, there's a reason he's in the role that he's in right now because of the same qualities. we should remember or remind you that there was a circumstance once that I feel like we should mention we're talking towards the end of WCW well I guess we'll back up a little bit because I don't know how much of this you're even super familiar with or because I know that you're going to play hokey pokey at different times in your WCW regime but there was once

upon a time a moment where he had a blow up with Terry Taylor I'm sorry with Scott Steiner. Do you remember this? What's the story on the Terry Taylor, Scott Steiner blow up? I don't even. I couldn't tell you. I mean, probably made the dirt sheets, but I probably walked by on it. It's Tuesday. I don't know. Maybe if you fed me, is there any more information on it? Sure. Well, it's July of 2000. So this is obviously when you're back in, but maybe it's not exactly the WCW that you hope for once upon a time. It's written here in the torch. Scott Steiner blew up at Terry Taylor backstage before his match on Thunder last week.

The blow-up included threats of physical violence. Taylor told Steiner he would sue him if he continued his assault, and Steiner called him a pussy for threatening to run to a lawyer. Taylor said he wouldn't work under such conditions and walked away. Taylor told friends he was hesitant to get on the WCW charter flag back to Atlanta that night because Steiner was also. scheduled to be on the plane. Steiner had several run-ins with management in the past, including once before with Taylor. Steiner was suspended from this week's TV for his actions, and the

incident stem from Steiner being upset that Taylor booked him to lose to Mike Awesome in the main event. When the timing of his intro music didn't go as planned, Steiner lividly complained about the lack of professionalism. Steiner was also upset at Taylor previously because Taylor fired Kim Cantor, one of Steiner's freaks, by leaving a message on her answering machine, rather than talking to her in person. Steiner felt he should have had a say or at least been given more time to prepare to replace her because he likes to have one on each arm to protect his image on TV. This is a crazy story.

What do you make of this? I was part of it. So that's why I didn't remember it. In July of 2000, I probably wasn't even there the night it happened, which is why I don't remember it. my role was quite a bit different in WCW in 2000 than it was previously. I wasn't overseeing anything. I wasn't managing anything.

The only thing I was overseeing was Vince Rousseau. The rest of it, and what was the date exactly in July? Early July, before Mass of the Beach. Yeah, my father had passed away. I was dealing with that. He passed away on 4th of July. I was in Wyoming. So anything that I was doing with regard to WCW was being done.

remotely at the time, which is why I wasn't there. And even if I had been there, I would have just, you know, hope everybody got out of it healthy, as healthies could be and moved about and going about my business because I wasn't involved in that aspect of the business. Do you remember there being, if we go back a little bit to 1997, before Kevin Sullivan comes back, it's written in the observer, I'm sorry, the torch, that Terry Taylor and Craig Leathers were having a bit of a power struggle. Do you remember Craig Leathers having an issue with Terry Taylor?

I mean, to hear Tony Chivani tell it, sounds like Craig Leathers had a problem with everybody. Did he have them with Terry, too? Not that I recall. Not say he didn't, but it wasn't significant. Look, not everybody in any office environment, work environment, some people just don't get along. That's all.

And this was probably the case, but I don't remember what it was about. wasn't significant enough to land on my desk. Let's talk about your contract negotiations with Terry Taylor. There's conflicting reports, call it the fall of 97. The torch would say that Terry Taylor just signed an extension with WCW for three years for a substantial raise, and that's going to eliminate some hard feelings over Kevin Sullivan coming back and taking his job back. But a couple of weeks later, we would see the observers say that you're playing hardball with a lot of negotiations, including where Terry asked for a raise but didn't get it.

Now, as we fast forward to early 1999, there's a report that Terry quit on January 18th to take a job working for Vince Russo and Ed Ferrara with the WWF. And he's at work for WWF the very next day. I bring this up because basically it's implied here that Harry was working without an existing contract, which is why this was even allowed to happen. So do you remember giving him a raise?

and an extension, was he working without a contract? What happened with this back and forth and then the jump in early 99 to the WWF? Couldn't even begin to tell you because in early 1999 the things I was dealing with were so different.

I wasn't dealing with these issues. I had other major issues. Keep in mind it was just a few months later that I ended up going home. So this is probably one of the worst periods in my professional career dealing with what I was dealing with internally outside of the WCW offices or efforts, meaning at television and everything else, dealing with the executives at AOL time Warner Turner was all I was thinking about

and pretty much delegating the rest of the issues to whoever I could delegate it to. All right. Take a look at this right now based on data from both MLS and Redfin. There are approximately half a million more active sellers than buyers here in the United States. What's that mean? Well, it means if you've been sitting on the fence, you need to jump and take action right now. There's more sellers than buyers.

And that means you've got more leverage right now than at any point in the last five years. Now is not a bad time to get a great deal. Somebody who took advantage of this market is my man Rijiv. He's a service solution sales rep from Sacramento. Check it out, dude. He purchased a new home. He came to us.

we were able to make sure he had the ability to make an informed decision on what they could qualify for and what they could afford. You see, one of the things we ask here is, hey, I want my new house payment to be no more than blank. You tell us what you want your dream house payment to be and what you would like your ideal down payment to be, and we work backwards to help you accomplish that goal. Rajiv got pre-approved and he was able to shop and purchase his home with confidence and comfort, eliminate the worry and the stress.

and do what my man Rejeeve did. Go right now to save witherick.com and Eric Bischoff. Yes, W.W.E. Hall of Famer Eric Bischoff and his team will run the numbers for you to help you get pre-approved. Remember, you don't need perfect credit.

You don't need a huge down payment. And in some cases, may not need a down payment at all. And remember at save witheric.com, we don't say no. We say not yet, but here's how. We want to get you a plan together. We want to get you on the path.

And speaking of a path, that have I mentioned the three-year guarantee, You see, all the experts tend to agree that interest rates are going to fall, and when they fall, well, we don't want you to miss out. I'd like to say, date the rate, marry the house. Let's get you out of that apartment and into the house that you've always known you deserved with the payment that you can stand and know that when these rates improve, man, you're going to get an even better deal.

Our exclusive three-year guarantee locks you in on a guarantee where you don't have to pay a whole other set of lender fees. So you get the peace of mind of knowing you've got the best deal for you and your family right now, but you're not wasting money later. Go grab it right now. At Save with Eric.com. NMLS number 21, 29, equal housing lender. If you're paying rent, what are you waiting for?

Make life a little easier. Start developing wealth for yourself right now at save with Eric.com. Here's what's written in February of 99. Apparently the departure of Terry Taylor went something like this. Eric Bischoff jumped Terry Taylor about rumors he was going to the WWF and told him if he wasn't happy in WCW to just leave. Taylor talked about being under pressure with his father having health problems and Bischoff offered him time off without pay

and that led to him making the deal with Vince the next day. Is that real or is this? That's, I guess it's hard to comment on, you know, dirt sheet, Dave Meltzer, garbage. So much of it is partially true or not. not true or whatever I don't recall it I'll just let it go with that because it's probably bullshit it's been said that wcw of course had been the training ground for paula veck hunter hurst helmsley as we knew him in the wbf at that time or triple h so terry taylor

got to be pretty good friends with him and i guess he makes the call and what do you know the very next day there he is i find that interesting because i guess at one point um you know, he was sort of hokey-pokey back and forth with the WWF and WCW. Why do you think that was? Why wasn't he able to sort of plant roots in one place and just stay? Was it just the abrasive personality at times? No, I think it all goes back to what we talked about early on, which is Terry was a guy who was frustrated and resentful.

And it affected the way he looked at everything and the way he dealt with everything. He felt he was worth more than he was. He didn't really understand how incongrued, his behavior was from a corporate point of view. He was living in a world that no longer existed at Turner Broadcasting, culturally speaking, and he couldn't wrap his head around it. And I protected him as best I could when I could. But he wasn't enough for Terry, evidently. He wanted more. He probably deserved more. I just couldn't give him what he really wanted. He wasn't going to get a senior management position in Turner Broadcasting, period, end of conversation.

even if I wanted him to. It wasn't going to happen. That was probably frustrating for Terry. I don't know that I ever even had that conversation with him because it never got to that point. But I also couldn't move him up the ladder. So I'm sure that was frustrating for him. Look, he did have, you know,

he had a great relationship with Paul Vett. He was the one who campaigned. to me to hire paula veck here's another thing i gave paula back his very first job of professional wrestling add that to changing the live format and adding luchador's to to the universe so to speak but you know paul's a loyal guy uh that's a good quality you offered him a spot good for terry he's still there by the way and doing exceptionally well because he's a he's a earned it and he's in a position now that he probably embraces as opposed to being resentful and wanting more.

We should mention that the way he winds back up in WCW is after Vince Rousseau and Ed Ferrara jumped from the WWF to WCW in the middle of the night, Titan asked people who were there behind the scenes to sign a loyalty pledge, which basically means, hey, you're with us and you can't leave and go to WCW. Without a real contract, Terry Taylor says, no, no, no thing. thanks and follows Ed Ferrara and Vince Rousseau down to WCW. That's where we see some of the situations pop up like we saw the whole Scott Steiner story and there's even an alleged meeting that happened on June 28th,

just a few days prior to this Scott Steiner thing for Taylor met directly with Brad Siegel and let him know that he booked last week's TV to prove that younger wrestlers can draw the same ratings as the more established names. I love that he's always trying to move his way up. here. It's hilarious the way this gets spanned. Well, it's so, I mean, it's so obvious, right? Yes, yes.

Hire me. I'm the smart one. Yes. You know, there's problems he's going to have with a big veto and buff Bagwell in addition to Scott Steiner. But maybe the biggest problem comes in early 2001. There's a lawsuit that's filed. It's a pretty famous now racial discrimination lawsuit. And Terry Taylor is named here.

We haven't spent a lot of time talking about. about this and I know that you weren't necessarily super involved in that by 2001 you're trying to put together a deal to buy WCW not actually running the day to day but what did you hear if anything about Terry Taylor's role in the discrimination lawsuit because it feels like his quotes are used zero yeah I was I wasn't a part of WCW at that time outside of what was the date on this early 2001 February yeah I wasn't even remotely involved in anything day to day. So it would have not been on my radar unless it ended up, you know,

on the dirt sites or something like that, but not aware at all. We know that by early March, it's in the newsletters that Terry Taylor and Kevin Kelly are talking on a regular basis. Of course, Kevin is with the WWF. By early April, it's in the torch that Terry is trying to work a deal out with the WWF to return and in May it's written Terry Taylor's telling people he had hoped to work for the new WCW, that's WWE's version, but believes Jim Ross and Bruce Pritchard did everything they could to prevent that from happening. Taylor knew his chances were slim when Johnny

Ace was named as the intermediary between the WWF office and WCW talent despite Taylor being privy to the same financial information as Ace. Taylor is interested in working with Wildside once he opens his wrestling school in Atlanta. It's interesting to see that Terry Taylor is, is it fair to say he was a political animal? Yeah. He was a talented political. I mean, talented in the industry as well as being a talented politician within the industry.

He was political. He was very outspoken and abrasive. And as I started out, he would just blurt shit out. It was inappropriate. and he more than anybody else created more obstacles for Terry Taylor than anybody in Terry Taylor's universe. I'm sure it was frustrating for him. Terry Taylor is going to make the news in 2001 saying that the WWF decided

against offering him a job. Apparently he had a good report with Vince McMahon, but people are saying perhaps Terry Taylor was too arrogant and rub people the wrong way the last time he was there so at some point in 2001 he decides i'm doing i'm finished with wrestling i'm retiring he wasn't able to get the insurance for the school so he's going to get some knee surgeries done and the next thing we know he's actually in t and a when you're there i think when you get the t and a terry was there in talent relations for like the first year or so before he wound up being relieved of his duties what was your experience like with

Terry and TNA. I think Terry, I remember meeting Terry in the production offices the very first time I visited T&A. And Terry came up and shook hands and to say hello and how I was excited he was for me to be there. And I can see through every syllable, but that's okay. You know, I'm sure he had issues with me and probably resented me in some respects and just maybe deservedly so.

but we got past it in about five minutes it was no big deal well we know when triple h is given the opportunity to open the performance center and gosh this was like 12 years ago now at this point it becomes almost like the wcw power plant that that really helped triple h early in his development who was the who was one of those guys who helped make that happen terry taylor so harry's been there pretty much since the beginning and he's still there to this day, being very, very helpful behind the scenes. You know, we've talked about the good, the bad, the ugly of Terry Taylor today, but what do you think will be his legacy, you know, either on camera or behind the scenes?

What will be his legacy in professional wrestling, Eric? My guess is from the people he's worked with, both previously in WCW early on in their careers, and certainly a lot of people currently in NXT in the WWE, you'll be hearing a lot of stories about how much Terry Taylor helped them achieve in their careers, something that perhaps Terry was never able to achieve in his own. And that's a cool legacy in a way.

It's actually cooler because now you're sharing your gift and other people are benefiting from it as opposed to just you and your banker. Well, boys and girls, that'll do it for us here today. We are really, really excited. We are just about a week. week away as you're listening to this to the debut of real American freestyle as you're listening to this I want to remind you Eric plugged his appearance tomorrow Saturday morning the

23rd on Fox and Friends where they really start kicking off the Fox promotional efforts for real American freestyle the debut on Fox Nation ticket master has your tickets on sale it's next Saturday Eric are you even going to be home next week for us to do a party you're going to be doing it on the road when will you be setting up in Cleveland I get to Cleveland, Tuesday night, I think, or Wednesday night. I'll let you know. You can certainly do it Thursday morning. Yeah, we'll get this.

Look, I travel with my rig now. I got some pretty cool equipment that I can travel with, and I get enough audio and a cool enough camera that it doesn't look too bad or sound too bad. So I can do a podcast from anywhere I can get a Wi-Fi signal. I'm not going to not do a podcast. I may have a couple of guests on from Real American Freestyle, I want to be talking more about that, but definitely I'll be here. I can't wait, man.

We're going to, we're home stretching it. Final countdown is on. We're about a week away from the debut of Real American Freestyle. Join us in Cleveland. Grab your tickets now at Ticketmaster for Real American Freestyle. And we'll see you next week. Maybe live right here on 83 weeks with Eric Bischoff. Hey, hey, it's Conrad Thompson here to tell you a little more about what ad-free

shows.com is all about. Get early, ad-free access to more. than a dozen of your favorite wrestling podcasts every single week starting at just nine bucks that's less than 20 cents an episode each month and yes you can listen to them all directly through apple podcasts or your regular podcast app how easy is that ad free shows also has thousands of hours worth of bonus content and docu series like title chase eric fires bank conversations with conran and the insiders plus new series like the book with david crockett monday man bags with Mike Keota and Nick Patrick and a whole lot more.

And you want to talk about early. You can't get any earlier than listening to the shows live. You can be a part of the live studio audience as we record the podcast. Plus ride shotgun alongside your favorite childhood heroes for live watchalongs, Q&As, and other interactive experiences every single month. Come on now. See for yourself what thousands of other wrestling fans from around the world have discovered that ad-freeshows.com is the best value in wrestling.

Check it out today. And hey, when you do, the first week is completely free, ad-freeshows.com.