83 Weeks with Eric Bischoff - Episode 434: Night Wrestling Changed

Episode Date: July 7, 2026

Thirty years later, we're celebrating one of the most shocking and influential moments in professional wrestling history! On this special edition of 83 Weeks, Eric Bischoff and Conrad Thompson take you back to Bash at the Beach 1996, the night the wrestling world changed forever when Hulk Hogan stunned fans by turning his back on the red and yellow, aligning with Scott Hall and Kevin Nash, and helping launch the New World Order. Eric shares firsthand memories from inside the arena, the creative process behind one of wrestling's greatest plot twists, the risks involved in pulling it off, and how close the moment came to never happening. Hear what was going through Eric's mind before Hogan walked through the curtain, how the infamous reveal came together, and why this single angle forever altered the business.     THIS WEEKS SPONSORS INDACLOUD - If you're 21 or older, get 40% OFF your first order @IndaCloud with code 83WEEKS at https://inda.shop/83WEEKS ! #indacloudpod BLUECHEW - When you buy two months of BlueChew Gold, you get the third FREE with promo code 83WEEKS. You will also receive an additional 10% OFF + Free overnight shipping on your first order. Visit http://BlueChew.com  for more details and important safety information PODCAST HEAT - Want to grow your business with the power of podcast advertising? Reach loyal, engaged audiences through trusted host endorsements across the Podcast Heat network. Learn more at PodcastHeat.com SAVE WITH CONRAD - Stop throwing money away by paying those high interest rates on your credit card. Roll them into one low monthly payment and on top of that, skip your next two house payments. Go to https://www.savewitheric.com  to learn more.

Today's episode comes to you from the Blue Chew Studio. When you buy two months of Blue Chew Gold, you get the third for free with promo code 83 weeks. You'll also receive an additional 10% off plus free overnight shipping on your first order at Bluetooth.com. Hey, hey, it's Conrad, the mortgage guy. And you're listening to 83 weeks with Eric Fish off Eric. What's going on, man? How are you? You're muted.

We can't hear you. It's right. I didn't have anything that interesting to say. That's okay. You're just taking it from the top here, Silva? No, I was just, no, no, you don't have to do that. I was just going to say because I had myself muted. I didn't want to interrupt the open.

I love that open. It still makes me, you know, want to pop a move every time I hear it. But no, I was just saying this is seven years we've been hearing that open of 83 weeks. Seven years is a long time for me to do anything. Yeah, it's, uh, it is a long time for you to do anything. I mean, you think about the totality of your WWE run.

You've had a longer podcast run than you did a WWE run, I think, right? I mean, this is, it's unprecedented to have a podcast for seven years, much less to have enjoyed as much success as you have in the podcasting world, in the pro wrestling world.

And of course, this weekend, you're making history again. And yes, we are here to celebrate an anniversary, and we're going to talk about that shortly. But, you know, it was like,

less than a year ago that real American freestyle was a thing. Like this thing hasn't even existed a year. And now we're recording on your way to Georgia. And I don't mean like the home of WCW. I mean the country of Georgia, as they used to say in the horsemen, what's calls in all this, Eric? You know, when we,

when Chad and Izzy and Hulk and I first sat around Chad's kitchen table in Tampa and said, oh, what if we do this? You know, the one thing that we knew then was that wrestling internationally is a huge sport. It's, you know, it's on the obscure side here in the United States. It's not one of the major sports collegially or otherwise. But internationally, it's quite different. So we knew that there was a, we knew that there was an existing marketplace for our product internationally. we didn't believe that we would get there as quick as we have,

but I think because we've done such a great job here in the United States, RAF is becoming a globally recognized, at least within the world of freestyle wrestling, not, you know, delusional here, but in the world that we exist in, we're kind of a big damn deal. And we've got, you know, we've got three events, I believe, contractually that we're going to do in Georgia.

I could be wrong. so don't quote me. And we've got several other really big ones that are in negotiation, not discussion, negotiation as we speak. So I think REF internationally is going to surprise a lot of people with the success that we have just because wrestling is such a popular sport around the world. It's pretty exciting. I got to tell you.

It is pretty exciting. I can't wait for people to check it out this weekend. Do what I'm going to do. and that's not hop on a plane to Georgia. But watch on the Fox Nation app. It's only a couple of bucks a month, and you get all the archives. I was just at the most recent event in St. Louis,

and I can tell you it is one home run of a live experience. And that's good news for you, Milwaukee, but hurry, tickets are going fast at real American freestyle.com. And how about this? It feels like you're in your old wrestling days. An international date this weekend and next weekend, almost like a summer slam of real American freestyle, if you will in Milwaukee, right?

Yeah, that's going to be a big one. We not only have a great, great card lined up for Milwaukee. It's going to be an exciting card. Maybe one of the better ones we've put together so far. But we're also launching our youth series called NextJep. And we're going to have a 15 and under of weight classes, 15 and under and 8 and under, two different age groups, all way classes. And we're going to put on our first year.

youth event, and we're going to have the finals on Fox Nation Sunday night. So you're going to have a whole weekend, a full weekend of Real American Freestyle. Saturday night, of course, our big event and Sunday night, the youth series. So we're really excited about that. It is going to be a huge opportunity. I see both of those as being boons for the business, not only the addition of and the influence of international, because obviously this is a global sport, but also too, getting them young, man. I mean, I think there's something that can be said about Vince McMahon. I can't

overstate the value and the importance of getting those people involved. Like I can tell you now, if I stumbled across pro wrestling today as an adult for the first time, I don't know that it would captivate me the way it did since I started as a kid. And so much of that was sort of aimed

towards me, I feel like with the marketing, the advertising, and the licensing, I think this is a genius move. And I can tell you that in the schools I grew up in Alabama, they didn't even offer amateur wrestling. You know, these are more rural communities, of course,

but they didn't even have wrestling. I know it exists in the state of Alabama, and it's certainly grown since I was in school, but this is, this is the Lord's work, as somebody might say here in the South, what you guys are doing for real American freestyle. Yeah, it's interesting.

You bring that up, but, you know, I was born and raised in Detroit and lived there until I was 14 years old. And in my junior high school or even the high school, to my knowledge. There was no wrestling. There was no wrestling team where I went to school until I moved to Pennsylvania.

And I didn't have any friends. I didn't know anybody. I was a new kid, you know, in town. And I had to do something. I wanted to get involved in something. And I was too shitty for basketball. I was too small for football. And I went, well, you know, it's kind of like fighting, I guess.

It's what I've been doing since I was younger in Detroit. it might as well do that and and started wrestling in Pennsylvania. Actually, it was the first time I ever heard of such a thing as an organized wrestling program at a junior high school. So that's how I broke into it. But yeah, even in a major metropolitan area like Detroit, wrestling was not on my radar.

Well, everybody should be having Real American Freestyle on their radar by now. Go grab your tickets, Real American Freestyle.com. And of course, do what I'm doing this weekend and watch on Fox Nation. Hey, speaking of Fox Nation, I'm sure they had a lot of Fourth of July coverage. It's always fun to check in with you and Mrs. B. I know it's a celebration on multiple fronts for you guys. Obviously, the city has a huge celebration, but your family does too with it being Mrs. B's birthday and usually have some out-of-town friends come through.

What was the situation in Cody this weekend? It was pretty calm compared to previous Fourth of July's. we did have some friends in and we cooked and really it was a it was a very relaxing weekend it wasn't the party kind of an intense weekend that we normally have over the fourth and I got to tell you I kind of enjoyed it part of it was because I had to gear up for this trip I'm gonna be gone on I'll be on the road for two weeks straight so I really you know wasn't in the mood to party too hard over the fourth but it was a nice relaxing weekend I got to cook a lot

I enjoyed that. And it was fun. Really relaxing type. Bob and Tammy Needer Kwaner, our friends from La Crosse, Wisconsin, came in and had a great time. Well, we hope you guys all had a safe and happy holiday as well. It was quite a celebration down here in Florida. The traffic was like three and four hours deep to see fireworks, Eric,

which always makes me laugh because they're covering the most fantastic fireworks that plays ever on TV. And you can watch that at all. home or you can drive three hours each way and see it. But it was something else, man. What's celebration this year? Yeah. It's funny. I'm usually at bed by 8 o'clock or 830. So for me to stay up to 10 or 11 o'clock at night to watch fireworks is not something that's on my list of things to do. But, you know, I get it when you're when you're young. And if you have young kids, that's that's where the magic comes in. I'm sure when Whalen gets a little bit older, I'll be

taking him to the, you know, the fireworks shows over the 4th of July, it probably experienced at a whole different level. I got to ask, the entire world seems like it's captivated by the World Cup. Have you been keeping up with that? What's your read on America's soccer craze right now? You know, it's taken 40 years for soccer to finally get, you know, interesting here in the United States, and I'm glad to see it. It's a great sport.

I love seeing so many people coming into the United States. and discovering that it's not as bad as everybody made it out to be. I get a real kick out of that. But I think it's great. It's it's it's it's it's a great sport. And I love seeing as many kids interested in soccer as I do because I just think athletics are such an important part of anybody's development as a young person. And seeing so many kids getting interested in soccer is a great thing.

totally agree I can't help but laugh every time I see some sort of crossover between soccer or football whatever we want to call it and WWV like this past Sunday night when Mexico was plagued they got a shot of El Grande Americano

and all of a sudden it was popping up on social media again it's interesting to me to see those two worlds collide speaking of colliding boy did we have a collision and talk about last year that we've got a follow-up for. I'm talking about Raja Jackson. We know that he is the son of Rampage Jackson, and we covered this story

last year. It was last August, nearly a year ago. There was a pretty violent incident that happened at a training facility where I guess they were doing a training show in California. He attacked Sicko Stoo, and it was not planned. And if it was planned, well, it became an assault. Well, he. It was poorly planned. If it was planned, it was poorly planned.

He was sentenced and he started to serve his time now. He's going to serve 90 days in jail. He's going to have two years of formal probation. And he's going to have to pay like 81 grand in restitution to Stu. And Stu spoke in court. And he said, what happened affected me deeply and I do not minimize the seriousness of it. The injuries I suffered led to a long and difficult recovery. that I'm still trying to recover from,

including treatment for a severe traumatic brain injury, a shattered maxilla, and a bone graft procedure. I do not stand here with hatred for a desire for revenge. I hold no grudges against Mr. Jackson. People can make terrible decisions in difficult moments. That was the quote to the L.A. Times. I'm glad that we finally see this being over and settled,

and I felt like that statement was a little bit the closure from Stu, what do you think? I think it was a great statement. Let the door open for future litigation, which is always going to be there, obviously. But it was a mature, reasonable look. I mean, it was a bizarre situation. Nobody's, nobody's hands were perfectly clean in that mess.

I feel bad, Raj, Jackson. You know, I'm friends with his dad, you know, full disclosure. But I think even Rampage would probably, agree with me unless something has changed that, you know, he's going to do his time. He's going to make restitution. He's going to do what he has to do. And he's going to learn from it. And he'll be a better person as a result of it.

Let's hope. Yeah, I'm pulling for that. I think I agree with the rest of the world. I think we're all in agreement. We're ready to move past this and hope that there's a full recovery from Stu. And I can't help but follow up. You said, hey, it leaves the door open for. future litigation. As far as I know, there hasn't been a civil suit filed yet.

It almost sounds like you expect one. Yeah. Okay. Of course. You think maybe the strange? I would be shocked if it didn't happen. Let's put it that way. I'm shocked it hasn't already happened.

Do you think they were just letting the legal process play all the way through so they could have the criminal decision in hand once they pursued it civilly? Or what do you think the strategy is? I mean, I don't want to sound like I know more than I do. but things take time evaluations, medical evaluations, testing. All of this stuff takes time. Nobody's going to be in any hurry because they've got plenty of time. They've got plenty of pavement ahead of them in terms of working out the details of putting themselves in the best position to litigate this.

So I would have been surprised if something happened sooner, but I think in the next six months or a year, we're going to hear about it again. Well, we'll stay. tuned, I just hope for a happy outcome, whatever that looks like. Fingers cross. Fingers also crossed for Seamus. It feels like the entire wrestling world is talking about him right now. It came out over the weekend, Eric, that Seamus is leaving WWE. Now, there was some, I believe, inaccurate reporting saying that his contract was coming to an end.

That was said in a way where it almost sounded like it was expiring. In reality, the truth is, W.W.E approached Shamish. and asked him to take a hefty pay cut, and he turned that down, and as such, he is having his contract canceled by WWE. So this is sort of the same deal we saw with New Day before him. They come to a talent,

ask him to take a pay cut, and if they don't agree, they're out the door. And the phrase we're hearing is, we can't pay for past performance, and I know that annoys some fans online, but this is kind of the way every, sports team in the world is ran.

Every business. Every business. I don't care how good of a salesman you were when you're in your 30s. If you're 50 and you're not churning paper, guess what, dude? Your baggage. It's just the circle of freaking life. It is. And I for one hope that people reevaluate Seamus's career. I saw somebody the other day say, hey, when you really look at it in its totality,

and just take a step back. Seamus had a darn near picture perfect WWE run. I mean, there's not much that that guy didn't do. I mean, I think he won every title except the Intercontinental title. I mean, but he's checked every box. He's kind of done it all.

What would you like to see for the real life Seamus on the other side of his WWB time? I mean, he's been there for what feels like decades. 19 years. Do you imagine he goes to Japan? He does some Mexico. stuff, he's going to do T&A, is doing AW, or is he just going to move on with his life and start a new business, but I don't know him well enough to predict that at all.

But, you know, what's interesting is when I first came to WCW and it was announced that I was coming in back in 2019 as a director for SmackDown, one of the first people in WWE to reach out to me was Seamus. Seamus was injured at the time. And this was before I even officially started, like this is right after, you know, it's probably announced. And I got a call from Seamus. We had a great, and I had met Shamus once or twice before. I met him and his dad, Papa Shamus, met him and his dad at a WrestleMania. And, you know, we just, you can just tell sometimes you just hit it off with people. And we got along,

great. And he reached out to me. Yeah, he reached out to me just right after it was announced that I was coming in. And like I said, he had been injured. He'd been out for a while. He knew they were thinking about bringing him back and he wanted to get together and talk about his character. And I love this character. I love the idea of Seamus. I love the Seamus character. But I was tired of seeing the, I don't know what the right word is, but the, the parody, if you will, I don't know if parody is the right word of the, you know, typical Irish character.

And I saw so much more in him. and was really hoping to get a chance to work with him, and it just obviously didn't work out. But what I saw on him was, I want to say strip him of his gimmick, but I would have made his character more relatable and current. I felt like the kind of animated, typical badass Irish guy had been done to death. They'd explored that character as much as they possibly could have. back then and just to bring him back in that same character it just didn't feel right to me

so i was really working on something else and he i would have liked to have seen shamus come back with the same attitude the same motivations the same points of view on things but in a less animated kind of lucky charms type characterization i guess it is going to be interesting to see how he reinvents himself if he chooses to continue to pursue wrestling and I know everyone immediately goes oh he could have a lot of great matches in AEW or oh imagine this guy in New Japan and I get all of that but I also know that he's probably made a lot of money for a long time so I doubt that he needs to wrestle and it may be just time for him to say hey you know what I want to do some outside business stuff but maybe he could do that and wrestle

I know AEW allows their guys the opportunity to kind of do both. And if you're working one day a week, I mean, why not? I think you would want to pursue that as long as you could. But what do you imagine that even looks like? I mean, if you, if you were him, would you want to create a new character? Would you just want to use your real name? Would you want to sort of ride some of the existing legacy you've had?

Like, hey, let's do something with Cizaro again or just start fresh. What would your advice? I don't know. I think, again, I don't know. us well enough to guess. But, you know, 19 years with WWE, been a world champion, covered some ground, made some money. If money is not a driver for him, and I suspect it might not be after 19 years, if money isn't the driver, and this is the hard part that wrestling fans, especially that listen to the show or on the internet, will have a hard time relating to is if it's not

about the money. What is it about? It's about the performance. It's about being out there in front of a crowd and getting that energy and getting that shot of adrenaline that you can't get anywhere else. And to do that, you know, New Japan is an indie territory. It just happens to be in Japan, so everybody thinks it's something really special, but it's not. It's a, New Japan is a shell of its former self. It's essentially a pretty, you know, reasonably successful indie territory. AEW is pretty much the same thing.

So you're going to go out and wrestle in front of 1,200 people? That's not, you're not getting any buzz from that. You're not satisfying any needs wrestling in front of 800 or 1,200 or 1,500 or 1,500 people. For someone like Seamus, who's been in front of 20,000 and 30,000, or 40,000 or 50,000 people. Wrestling in front of 1,200 people is just not that big a thrill. So if it's not about the money and he can't get the thrill, I would suspect if I were in his shoes, what would I do?

I would probably leverage my equity. He spent 19 years as Seamus and WWE. He's not obviously going to be able to use that name. But I would leverage that success. and I would pick and choose my shots. If I got a big shot down in AAA and it sounded like fun, and I got a chance to work with somebody that I never worked with before or somebody that I had worked with before,

but I want to work with again. And that opportunity was available to me in AAA, or if it was available to me as a one-off in AEW or even New Japan, take it, have fun. Come home with a bag of money, have a great time, and some memories, and wait for the next one. but it all depends. You know,

what's his financial situation? Does he need the cash flow or does he? If he doesn't, then you get to pick and choose your shots. And, you know, wrestling in front of eight, nine,

1,200 people is not a big thrill for somebody that's been doing it for 19 years. I got to say, Eric, I know that a lot of us, myself included, we wish that it was the way it was, like we missed the way wrestling used to be.

But I will say, one of the more positive changes about modern wrestling now, is it feels like more and more often we're hearing stories of guys who are in a financial position where they can walk away, that they do have choices, that they have been better stewards with their money. And that makes me happy because it does feel like

some of the legends of yesteryear who told these cautionary tales, maybe some people heard their cries. I know the business changed and the pay scales changed, but the cost of living has too. I just think that's a positive sign, though, that you're now seeing guys and gals who have options. They don't have to anymore. And I love seeing that, you know, to, to be honest, one of the things that,

I want to say it hurts me, but I notice it and I feel bad when I see people that I know are struggling and they're having to go out there. And part of it is there, again, I keep harping on this. But once I think you've been out in the public eye, once you've become a performer and any form of entertainment, it becomes part of your identity. It becomes who you are. And walking away from that, whether you have a lot of money or not, whether you're financially secure or not, walking away from that part of your identity is really tricky. And until you've been there, it's hard to explain it. But that's a, you know, you look at somebody like Rick Flair or Hulk Hogan or, you

There are exceptions to the rule. I think Steve Austin is an exception. Steve Austin is a guy that made his fortune. He could not have probably created a more successful career on paper. And then once he was done, he's done. You know, he had that ability. Obviously, financially he was secure. He didn't need the money.

But he also didn't have the need. He didn't have the, he wasn't looking for a needle. I was looking for that shot, right? he just blows it off into the sunset on his ranch in Nevada with his cats and I admire the hell out of that to me that's a lofty goal to position yourself that way but I see the opposite too you see guys that you know are doing it because they have to and that hurts it hurts to see that because I know what they're going through well let's let's talk about some happier times let's talk about our friends at end the clown and you remember when summer used to feel

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and use the code 83 weeks. Hey, I was just reading why you were reading about Indiclaw, which I love that product, by the way. Sleep gullies are awesome. Yeah, they are. But I was reading that Kurt Engel's daughter knocked his teeth out. How great is that? Doing a moonsault.

She not only stole his gimmick, she took his move. She knocked his teeth out in the process. Clearly, clearly Kurt's daughter. She, and she went over. So-da, imagine that. There you go. Hey, we're excited about Dark Side of the Ring tonight.

I hope you guys are checking it out. It's happening at 9 Eastern 8th Central on Vice tonight. You get a doubleheader two episodes, all about TNA and Jeff Jarrett, part three. And the finale of that three-part series will be next week on the 14th, but then you get the rest of the season. But Dark Side of the Ring finally here. as you and I are recording on a Monday. Jeff has been doing media all over the freaking world in New York City today. Are you going to watch Dark Side of the Ring tonight?

Maybe. Maybe. First of all, I don't know if I get it here. I'm in a hotel. So if I get by CV, then there's a really good chance I'll watch it. If not, I'll check it out when I get home.

I can't wait to see what everybody thinks about it. I hope if you're checking out our podcast on Tuesday, then you'll join me and Jeff and Karen tonight over on Jeff's YouTube channel immediately following Dark Side of the Ring. They'll be taking your questions and I'm sure there will be plenty. Dixie Carter declined to participate. And I, you know, I think you know, as I might. I have tried for eight years to get Dixie to do a convention, a sit down interview, literally anything. and it feels like Dixie is leaving wrestling in the rearview mirror. Are you surprised by that?

No. No. I think it's unfortunate. I've said before many times I think Dixie deserves a lot more respect and credit than she gets. And I'll be honest, you know, I've been a little hard on Dixie from time to time when this subject comes up. But I don't think I've been unfair. And I think Dixie is one of the nicest people I've ever. worked with. I think she's got a very good heart. I think her intentions when she got involved

with TNA were as righteous as yours or mine would be in that same situation. I think she had every intention of really trying to make a go of it. But she wasn't prepared for it, and neither was anybody around her. That was her biggest problem, is she didn't have anybody around her that really understood, A, entertainment, and B, the wrestling business. The wrestling business is unique. Professional wrestling as a televised property is a unique business model. And she was surrounded by a bunch of people who were probably successful in other parts of their lives, whatever that may have been. Some of them were in, you know, tangentially in the music business in one way, shape, or form, as most people in Nashville are at one point in time or another,

but zero, zero feel, instinct or experience for the professional wrestling business. And because Dixie wasn't surrounded by enough people that could insulate her from bad choices or bad decisions or bad directions, she became a victim. She was pulled in a lot. I mean, victims not the right word. She got pulled in a lot of different directions, and she didn't have enough knowledge or experience of her own to make decisions that were really hers.

I think she was so heavily influenced by so many people. And unfortunately, there were people that didn't know their ass for a bag of rocks when it came to the wrestling business. Said differently, you believe that some of the talent maybe took advantage of Dixie? I don't know that the talent really tried to take it. Of course they did.

Talent is going to manipulate whoever writes the checks. That's just the nature of the business. David, Sylva and I, Super David, we're joking about that right before you came on. You know, talent is talent. Talent is going to be focused on them. That's their world. And you've got to expect that you're going to be manipulated

and people are going to try to take advantage. Just like they would if you're the boss. You know, if you're a mortgage company. You're going to have somebody, you know, people are always positioning for something to improve themselves. And there's nothing wrong with that, really. I think where Dixie fell, witnesses where most people that I've come across, and there's been a lot of them, very successful people in other forms, even in entertainment, who step into this world thinking, well, it can't be that tough. It's just professional wrestling. The government connects.

Guys in tights hit each other. with chairs. Who can't figure that out? A lot of people can't figure that out, to be honest. And that's why I think Dixie probably didn't live up to her own expectations or goals. She just didn't have the base of experience to rely on her own judgment. She had to rely on others. Think about the legacy that she would have in a positive way because she's not here to police the narrative or remind people of her success or discuss any of that. I do feel like more often than not, it's people just dunking on her. But there's so many people who we consider Hall of Famers who made millions of dollars

in their career who really owe a debt of gratitude to Dixie Carter. I mean, if it weren't for her family, writing those checks. And I know that people can be critical of, you know, creative or some sort of managerial decision, but the investment that they made in pro wrestling afforded a lot of people, a lot of opportunity to make a bunch of money because I don't think in the end they made very much, if any at all, when it was all said and done, right?

Yeah, I don't know what their finances look like. I never got close enough, nor did I want to get close enough to look at it. But, you know, I know that they had a TV partner and Spike Television, Viacom, who were writing a lot of those checks. Talked about this before. Spike TV, Viacom talked about this before.

They wrote the check for Hulk Hogan, not Dixie Carter. Spike TV wrote the check for Eric Bischf, not Dixie Carter. Spike TV wrote the check for Sting, not Dixie Carter, or the Carter family. So there's a lot of, there was a lot of support there from the network. They really, if I've got a bitch with TNA, and I've kind of let it go, got past it, but they blew one of the greatest opportunities that I've been exposed to up until Real American Freestyle.

Well, they had a network that was willing to invest in them. They had a network in Viacom who was reeling, like, staggered, punched in the head, kicked by a horse, reeling from the loss of UFC. Because Spike TV literally built UFC. UFC was broke. There were $350 million in the red up until they came up with this idea for, reality show called the Ultimate Fighter. You can go back and look at the numbers. You can pretend you're a genius all you want.

You can analyze it any different way you want to. But there is a point in time when the ultimate fighter hit airwaves, the UFC fortunes completely turned around in a very short order. And Spike TV, who was behind all that, funded all that, got a letter in a mail that basically, said, hey, we're going to go somewhere else after years of building that franchise with UFC, obviously, but with them as their television partner, only to lose it after spending so many years investing in it. And that was the point in time when I went to people that I had

connections with in Spike, because I had a good relationship there. I've always got along with network executives fairly well. started planning the seats. Hey, what if what a Viacom ends up owning? Why doesn't Viacom buy into TNA? So you don't have the same thing happen to you that happened with the UFC. You're not going to spend years building a sports franchise or a television property in this case. You're not going to spend years building a television property that has all this value because you've been a great partner.

And then you're going to watch somebody else take it away. Why not own a piece of a piece of, of TNA. That was my pitch. And who knows, ultimately, if that would have ever closed, but they were leaning into that conversation that could have happened, should have happened. And I think TNA's fortunes would have been decidedly different had it occurred, but we'll never know for sure. That was such a huge, huge miss of opportunity, and it was because of ego. It's because the Carter's didn't want to, have to answer to Spike or to Viacom or show anybody their books.

That's my personal opinion. I have no basis for that other than a really good, well-refined gut instinct. That nobody liked the idea of Viacom having a peek inside the books. It was easier to say, ah, we don't need them. You don't need them, really? You don't need them. You can't fund this company anymore. or TNA, Dallas, the parent company basically shut off funding for T&A and said,

okay, you're going to make it on your own or you're not going to make it. Okay. We know how that turned out. We do know how that turned out. You mentioned ego a little earlier. We talked about talent, you know, trying to manipulate whoever writes the checks. There's a report right now, Eric, that says, and I don't know why this made me laugh out loud, but here's the actual report.

there's reportedly a growing power struggle going amongst the number of top talent in order to maintain their top spot in WWE. And I saw that reported everywhere and I thought, wow, breaking news. Like this is like A1 stuff right here, right? Like we're digging hard for something to talk about, aren't we? Now, of course, the narrative is that we're really talking about three guys. Roman Raines, Cody Rhodes, and C.M. Punk. allegedly there have been problems with punk who knows what's real or not everyone has their take

on all this but a little bit of professional i guess we'll call it heat between your top guys that's good for the business right that's just competitive juices what say you could be if it's managed properly absolutely you know i was thinking about this a while this years ago it's like what if how do you how do you change the way people feel about professional wrestling how do you make the stakes more believable because that's really what it always comes down to is the states what are they you know in boxing you used to hear about the the person right someone said moham alie made 10 million dollars off a fighter Floyd mayweather made 50 million dollars or 100 million dollars whatever the big numbers were well those are stakes

That's big money. That's a fantasy for most people for almost everybody, actually. Wrestling doesn't have that. You get a championship. What does it mean? Does it mean that your meals are freed down in the cafeteria? Does it mean you get a free membership to the WWE Fitness Center? What does it actually mean?

Well, it doesn't mean anything. It means you're the champion. You have to hold the belts on your shoulder. You get to cut promos. You're the champion. But what does it really mean to your life? And sometimes I think it would be smart to start talking about it. Start talking about that big contract.

Now you've got a reason to fight for it that people can relate to. You're fucking right. I'm going to fight for $5 or $10 million. I don't care if we used to be friends that drove around in a car together, drink some beer in a backseat, told a war store. I don't really care. There's $10 million bucks in a light, dude. like I'll be your friend after but right now I want my 10 million you know that it's real it's something

that people can relate to whatever the numbers would be but wrestling needs something it needs something that's believable and tangible I totally agree I actually like the idea of talking about the purse too I know that you know we used to talk about money all the time back in the day in the territory days like you hear there's a you know a 10,000 battle reaile or something like that. But we don't hear that at all in wrestling anymore. So maybe you're on to something. Uh,

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What about that, Eric? They're doing free overnight shipping now. I mean, that's, uh, that's going to come in handy. If they could show up at my door at 7 a.m. on a Saturday or something morning, that'd be pretty handy too. Is that still the routine? I'm a morning guy. I'm just, I'm a morning guy.

all righty i'm going to have to take your word for that uh i do want to ask you we're here to celebrate a big anniversary and we're almost there but our pal jiff jarrots doing media and he was on our buddy ariel hawani show today and they had a conversation about uh AEW and how it was doing and whether or not jeff was was sort of proud of what he what what tony was doing quote This is going to sound real simple, but to me, you can go back and look over history. Who does Tony answer to? He answers to himself. When I was answering to just Bob Carter, it was a relationship.

Janice slowly got involved in Dixie, then Dallas. When you can implement your vision and the direction you're going, it's a game changer. You look at WCW versus Vince McRand in the 90s. You can drill it down and say the NWO petered out or Austin got hot. at the end of the day, to me, the deciding factor was, Vince was against corporate, and he kicked their ass. I'm proud of Tony. I'm not afraid to say that.

Very proud of Tony implementing his vision because the success is showing. Now, we'll set all of that aside, the AW chatter and piece of that. The thing I wanted to drill in on is corporate wrestling and can it work. I know WWE is enjoying a boatload of success right now, but for a lot of people, they look to WCW being, owned by a television network and they say, oh, well, this is why it didn't work. You had non-wrestling people like Jim Hurd and guys like that making wrestling decisions. I know that's not exactly where everybody was probably thinking I was going when I brought

this up to you, but I did want to ask you, do you think that corporate wrestling can still work and was that ultimately the reason that Vince won, in your opinion? I think it's a nice thing to talk about and it makes for great chatter online. To answer your question, corporate wrestling has to work or wrestling won't work. Look at where we're at. You want to be involved in a television business? Guess what? You're going to have to be in the business of the wrestling business, not what goes on inside of the rain.

It's a problem that I have when I hear a lot of these conversations, especially from people who are predominantly wrestlers. Maybe they danced around the fringes. of the business side a little bit. But for the most part, you know, they're very familiar with what goes on the side of the ring, but they're generally clueless as to what happens outside of the ring. The business of the wrestling business, 90% of the talent that you hear talking about the business of the wrestling business, don't know what they're talking about. And it's really obvious.

But they've got strong opinions and they've got a platform and they've got, you know, fans that hang on to their every word. but I think if you look at the state of entertainment now, does anybody think any independent promoter is going to come out there and have huge success within a corporate environment and not become corporate themselves? And if you think that, that's okay. There's, you know, people believe in unicorns.

People believe in a lot of stuff. But if you're going to be successful today, you have to learn and understand and be successful operating within a corporate structure. Otherwise, you're not going to be around. I love that take. I knew that you would have a unique perspective because you lived at Big Dog and you lived it 30 years ago this week. I would argue that today is maybe one of, if not the most important wrestling anniversary.

And I know there's lots of big moments, certainly like the last day of WCW. But when you talk about changing an industry, the NWO did that on 30 years ago this very day. And it just feels like on some level, it shouldn't be 30 years ago. And then on the other hand, it kind of makes sense. Let's sort of remind everybody that here we were in May and we're watching a, what feels like kind of a throwaway match on Nitro and all of a sudden, but looks like Razor Ramon starts tiptoeing down the aisles across from the hard cam. And everyone stops almost like out of a movie, and it's almost like a freeze frame.

And Scott Hall comes in the ring and grabs the microphone and the other wrestler's Peter out. You know who I am, but you don't know why I'm here. A week later, he's back and promises a big surprise. A week later, we see Kevin Nash. A week later, we see Eric Bischoff get power bombed through the stage. And then we see the NWO hold off the police and all of W. WCW with baseball bats.

And the next week, well, we can't kick them out because they bought a ticket. And we're six days away from the big payoff. What felt like for a lot of people, the end of an angle. Hey, we've got an invasion angle. We're going to reveal the third man and then that's it. Because the third man was dictated by the creation of the six man. WCW at their best. You've got Sting and Lex Lugar and Randy Savage.

And they're all aligned. They're all united. to take care of these outsiders, but they've got a mystery guy. And it starts like a three on two. We don't even get to find out who the third man is. The match just starts with an advantage to the good guys. This is like the reverse of every war games ever. But soon enough, Lex Lugar is carted out with an injury.

So the outsiders have sort of balanced the scales here, two to two. When all of a sudden, in Daytona Beach, through the bash at the beach set with the sand on the concrete floor, here comes the red and yellow Hulk Hogan to save the day. Surely he's here to take care of Sting. Surely he's here to take care of his old pal the macho man. In fact, it's a leg drop for the macho man. And the crowd goes bananas.

Every time I watch this replay, I focus in on the guy in the white ECW shirt in the front row. Clearly a guy who cheers the heels and he's losing his mind. He realizes what all of us realized at home. You see him in the background there with his arm above his head. We just saw wrestling history, brother, and we had no idea how big it was going to be. The business was forever changed. Yes, this was a month after, or specifically two weeks after, Stone Cold said Austin 316, but they had such big plans for that.

He was on the free-for-all wrestling Yoko Zuna the next one. This is what really changed the business and allowed Stone Cold to become. the star he was, in my opinion. And it's hard to believe it was 30 years ago today, Eric. This is still probably one of the most iconic moments. It's certainly got to be on the Mount Rushmore, right, of all time wrestling moments. I would think so. And what's really, you know, I'm looking at Hulk here in this picture with Gene Oakland.

Hulk was about 245 back then, maybe 250. And he was concerned and he was, you know, Losing too much weight or, you know, not the Hulk Hogan that he had been in the 80s. But he moved really well. And I look at him now, I mean, in these pictures, it's, I still can't believe he's not here. I still hear his voice from time to time. You know, he pops into my head. Same with Scott Hall.

I, you know, obviously he passed a while ago, but I still haven't really accepted that yet. And obviously the same with, with, with Hulk. which is coming up on a year now that he passed away. It's just still when you say, yeah, 30 years ago, it seems like forever, it seems like five minutes ago. In the sense of I still feel like I should be getting a phone call from either Scott or Hulk any time now. It doesn't seem like that long ago. So if we can show that photo again with me and Gene holding the microphone.

It's interesting. There was another shot from the guerrilla position or not guerrilla, but from the hard cam. There you go. Isn't it interesting that it almost looks like there's some separation there between Hogan and Nash, and unfortunately the only one alive in the shot is Nash. Scott Hall's no longer with us.

Mean Jeans no longer with us. Hawksders no longer with us. There's a little gap. And there's Kevin Nash. I mean, this is crazy, but not? It is.

It's, it's interesting to look at. It brings back great memories. up great memories. Well, there's no doubt about that. I do want to ask you, obviously we know this was a moment in time. You know, the internet existed in 96,

but not the way we use it now. You know, your mom and dad may have been learning about email, but they certainly weren't sending emails from the couch. You know, they weren't doing it out of their pocket. There was no social media. You know, you had to go see people. You had

to call people on the telephone. Maybe had a cord on it, or maybe it was fancy, it was cordless. Yeah. But it's a different world. I'm wondering, do you think a storyline like this could even really exist currently? Like in the climate we're in now, where everybody is looking for clicks and trying to get scoops and posting spoilers and putting stuff behind a paywall.

And I mean, back then, yes, you did have a portion of the audience who subscribed to the observer, but it was a snail mail newsletter. It wasn't just out in front of all your social media the way it is now. Could it even happen now, Eric? Yeah, it could. It could. I think it. I think for any faction that would be NWO-ish or esk, we're going to have to kind of take.

Let's not have any more factions for a while. We just keep cranking factions out like they're cookies in a cookie dough press. And they all suck. with the exception of the bloodline, what has come across the line? They're really cool factions and they get positioned well and they have really cool posters

and all kinds of cool shit. But they fizzle out within 90 or 120 days. Next, let's do another one. I think if we would go through a period where we didn't have people trying to resurrect the success of, you know, Dax or NWO and just let that whole faction thing

kind of take a breather. And then if you came back with something, because look, it all comes down to the story. You laid out, and I'm not taking credit for it, because there's a lot of other people involved beyond me. But the story the way you laid out, week once, Scott

Hall, week two, week three, here comes Kevin Nash, week four, ooh, Eric's power bombed off the stage. Then Hall Cogan turns heel. I mean, the beats within that story were timed so perfectly that the story is what made it work.

And people, this, and I'm not saying you, Conrad, but this is where I get really short of patience with people, is the willingness to go, oh, well, we just can't do it anymore because things are different now, and people watch your phone, TV on their phone, this is bullshit. You're just making excuses for the fact that you can't come up with a good fucking story. Everything is story-driven.

everything and crapping out factions once every three months hoping to get lightning in the bottle is not creative nor should anybody judge the potential success of the next bloodline or the next NWO shouldn't base the success on the fact that well that was then this is now and people you know they'll get their entertainment on their phones that is such a chicken shit cheap ass gutless way to address the fact that you just can't find your ass with both hands in a fucking compass when it comes to creative. How's that?

I love you when you're fired up like this. I totally agree with you too, by the way. I do want to ask, though, when you think about what made the NWO work, specifically this Hogan turn, the element of surprise was always something that you valued very, very heavily. You've taught us all long-time listeners of this show about Sarsa. And one of those S's is surprise. You know from doing the research way back when that wrestling fans value surprises

above almost everything else. And as you and I are recording tonight, there's a rematch with Cody Rhodes and Sammy Zane. So by the time everybody listens to this, they know what's going on. but I think the entire world was shocked on June 27th when Sammy left Saudi Arabia with the world title and there was a report from Dave Meltzer that this was in response to WWE seeing a lot of traction online from fans saying the things had gotten too predictable

and Meltzer pointed out something I thought pretty astutely hey you can't say you want long-term stories and then complain when it's predictable because your best long-term stories sometimes are predictable. Like we kind of know when we watch a Rocky movie what the end's going to look like. We have an idea. I mean, we knew when we bought a ticket to see Titanic. That damn boat's going down at the end. I mean, we may do some things along the way, but we know how we're getting there. They could do a swerve and the boat survive. That's not the thing. That's not the story.

Where do you land on that? How critical to the NWO's success was the ability to do the surprise because don't get me wrong. It was cool seeing Scott Hall. It was even cooler seeing Kevin Nash and him together. But man, it really leveled up when it was Hulk Hogan. And that was the surprise coupled with the Scott Hall thing. Those were the two biggest surprises in this surprise sandwich that created the NWO, in my opinion. I think surprises absolutely.

And the research did bear that out. We've talked about that many times in the past. And it's something that just rang like a giant bell in my head. over and over and over again, is that we've got to find interesting, compelling ways to surprise the audience. But you can't have a surprise unless you create anticipation first. It's milk and cookies. You really can't enjoy one as much as you should without the other.

And you can't have a big surprise that's meaningful if you haven't built up the anticipation and made people curious about what that surprise is. And that's what I, that's story. That's what I'm saying is, all of this is just story elements. And, whatever, Dave, Dave, Dave wouldn't know a story if he was wrapped up in one. But a great story builds and keeps you hooked.

And it doesn't mean that you have to have big beats every single week. Now, we did with the NWO, the way you lit it out every two weeks. It was something big happening. But afterwards, then it was just kind of building on the momentum. But the story, the little details, the elements of a story can keep you going for a long time. It doesn't have to be big hot shot-type angles to support your story. And I think that's what most people fuck up writers, producers, is they feel like they need some big, intense angles. every week, whether it's violence or whatever it is.

And it's just not true. That's not how I would think you should approach story. But look, do I think another MWO or another bloodline could come along? Absolutely, I do. But when it does, because it will, you'll be able to go back and look at this or listen to this podcast 20 years from now and go, oh, you was talking about story. It's a good story. it's not that hard.

Well, it is hard. Take that back. But it's not that unique. It's not earth-shattering. Yes, you can still have story. The internet has nothing to do with it. Whether people watch some shit on their phone or not, has got nothing to do with it.

It's all about the creative and having people that really understand television and storytelling and wrestling because wrestling is a unique audience. What do you think was more important? to the success of the NWO or just long-term storytelling. Discipline, patience. Is that the same thing, said differently?

Well, clearly it wasn't disciplined because we had none. So we'll throw that one right out the window. Look, call it what it is. You know, the NWO was an idea that I thought maybe would last six months, maybe if we got lucky. and along the way we realized, whoa, this is way bigger than that. And we were kind of, we were booking on the fly. We were taking that we were looking at the success we had the week before and thinking,

okay, well, how do we continue this story? How do we keep going in this direction as opposed to, well, it's 90 days and we're supposed to finish this story off so we can get on with the next one. Let's wrap it up. It wasn't that. it was literally growing with the audience's interest in figuring out new ways to tell that story or continue it really. I had a hypothetical that I want to ask you.

I asked this of someone the other day, not on a podcast, just in real life. And I want to ask you now, if Vince McMahon had this NWO idea, how long would it have lasted? I know all these years later, he's still making money on.

I mean, I guarantee you today. He would have never come up. And I say this not because I think I was a better creative person than he was. Obviously, he's got a much better track record than I do. And the billions of dollars to prove it. So that's not even a question here. But there's a sensibility. There's a perception.

There's a perspective. It's not Vince. Vince could not have conceived. conceived of. It wouldn't. It would have been alien to him. Everything I did would have been alien to him. His head would have fucking exploded.

If somebody would have suggested some of the stuff that I did in a meeting with Vince prior to me actually doing it and kicking his ass doing it, if somebody would have brought up and said, hey, Vince, I got a great idea. Let's do this. It would have sounded anything like anything we did. That kicked his ass. He probably would have been out the door.

it's the kind of creative that was totally alien to Vince McMahon at the time and probably still is. Well, the biggest piece we all know for sure is what made the NWO so successful is they kicked WCW's ass for a long time. And we know Vince McPan was not going to let any other outside company look stronger than WWE on WWE programming, not for one month, much less 18 months or whatever it was until Sting finally got. Two years. Yeah, there you go. 104 weeks actually, but whatever. Let's talk a little bit about the what ifs of that day.

And I know that sometimes you get annoyed when I want to press you on what ifs, but this is an interesting one because when we do think about, hey, what if Hogan isn't the guy, you've explained to us on the show, hey, the backup plan was going to be sting. something even I did never spend a lot of time on is what could that have looked like we know at least at that point sting had not been a heel i know that once he was breaking in as a blade runner or whatever in mid-south with the ultimate warrior yes but i mean since he was a national star he'd never been a heel did you get so far as to think about what his motivation as a heel would be or did you just know i need star power fair question Honest answer, no, I didn't think about it. I didn't think about it from Sting's perspective as a character in terms of how is the new sting going to react. What's his point of view now that he's healed?

Should have thought about those things? Never really got there. It took me a while to convince Sting that this was the right move. And shortly after I convinced him it was the right move, I got to have. a phone call from Hall. So never really quite got there, to be honest. I am curious to think about as we go down that rabbit hole of what if Sting was the third guy.

We know what happened when Hogan was the third guy. For better or worse, he became the leader of the NWO. No disrespect to Hall and Nash, but they understandably took a back seat, positioned themselves as a tag team act, and now Hogan was the top guy. I'm curious if it was Sting in that spot. Would Sting have been positioned as the leader of the NWO or what would that have looked like? Just looking at the characters, the personalities, I would say probably not. I think at that point it would have been Kevin, would have probably taken that lead role.

I don't think it would have been Sting. Well, we'd love to be a hit for your advertisers, which is why you should check. us out here at Podcast Heat. Want to grow your business with the power of podcast advertising? Reach loyal, engaged audiences through trusted host endorsements across the podcast Heat Network. To learn more about advertising opportunities, email Dave at PodcastHeat.com or visit our website at PodcastHeat.com.

So, Eric, I want to keep this discourse going about, hey, hypothetically, Sting is the leader. I guess I can't say I'm surprised that you suggested that Kevin Nash would take the role because we do know that eventually he moved into main events. He's the guy who's going to become world champ and beat Goldberg and all that. But it does make me wonder, hey, what does the tag division look like? Because the outsiders as a tag act really became a main event act. And the idea that in this alternate reality, we never really get that. That would have done, that would have been interesting.

look at. Do you think Scott Hall's career looks any differently if it happens that way? I don't think so. I mean, Scott was so perfectly positioned, right? He was a guy that he didn't need a belt. He didn't need to be a champion to be an extremely valuable character. He was, I think Scott enjoyed kind of being, what's the term, basically a jack of all trades. you could plug Scott into any situation. You plug him in the main event, he'll kill it. Put him in an opening match, he'll kill it. Put him in an angle somewhere in the middle of the show, he'll kill it.

So he was so good at everything that he did that it was easy for Scott to take kind of a passive role because he'd just pick his shots and kill it and was able to maintain his career with that approach. my opinion. Now, people that work with Scott more closely than I did obviously have a different opinion. But from just my perspective,

Scott was, in many ways, he was cooler than his personality. He had that cool vibe to him. There was just nobody cooler than Scott Hall, really. But as cool as that character was, he was even cooler. When it came to

ring work, when it came time to control, that 20 by 20 or 18 by 18 depending where you're at, a ring. Scott was in complete control there and felt so comfortable that I don't know that Scott's career would have really changed trajectory in any way. I know eventually Hogan and Nash had some creative flashes a few years later. How do you think Sting would have gotten along with Hall and Nash in 96, 97, 98?

And Ganesh and Hogan clashed because they're both strong personalities. They both believed in their positions. And both of them are fairly stubborn. I think that's fair. Kevin was here with us. I think he would agree. He was a little bit pig-headed. So was Hulk.

And then it got down to be not so much a battle of Creed. creative direction as it was battle of egos and pride. It's another way of saying ego. She's pride, neither one I'm going to back down to the other. Trust me. I was got in the middle of a couple of them.

Not a pleasant position for someone like me. But it wasn't so much they had such difference of opinions when it came to creative people. Strong, strong personalities. Was it ever

considered for Lex Lugar or Randy Savage to be the third man. I mean, even the way the match plays out where Lugar gets carted off, if Lugar would have made that spirit of 76 comeback, but not sided with Sting and Savage and instead turned and became the third man, because he did have that connective tissue of working with the WWF. He had been back for less than a year. Randy Savage, of course, had also been in the WWF as a work. world champion. So he could have also stepped into that similar role, I guess, but he had been there a lot longer than Lugar.

Was it ever even considered Lugar or Savage to be the third man? See, whenever these questions come up, not just for me, Conrad, but from others, it's like somehow the former WWE status was a prerequisite. And it wasn't. It never crossed my mind until I started doing a podcast and people started asking me about it. it was it was a coincidence i mean scott and kevin were the scott especially was the the catalyst for me going wait a minute we could we have a chance not we can do this really cool idea so scott was definitely the catalyst um i forgot where i was going at that point luger and savage oh lugar no but in lugar as you're laying

that out to me i'm thinking well wait a minute that wouldn't have been a bad idea why didn't i even think of that. Why was that not discussed? And maybe somebody else discussed it. It just didn't give to me. But that would have been an interesting conversation to have because it's, look, would it have been as big as Hulk Hogan? Absolutely not. Of course not. Would it would have been pretty damn good. Yeah, it could have been. Let's talk a little bit about the decision to turn Hull Cogan. You've told the story a lot that you made the trip down and tried to pitch him on the idea. he all but threw you out of the house and said something like he let me take the beer though i got to take the beer with me

well there you go the famous line the parting word is something like hey until you've walked a mile in my yellow boots you won't understand he goes off he starts making movies he sees the holl and nash thing getting some traction on tv you're looking for a backup plan you finally cement staying the phone rings it's the holster saying and I'm in. I heard the money truck, and here's my address.

They can back up here too. We've heard from Kevin Sullivan over the years that, you know, he had Hulk stay at his place and he slept on the couch, and he disconnected the battery from his cell phone, and anything he could do to keep that agent from talking about of this. He gets him to the building once the show's already going, and here we go,

what's going to happen? But hypothetically, I am curious, I don't know that we've spent a lot of time talking about this, how much trouble you would have been in if this didn't work. Let me set the stage. Once upon a time, WCW had never turned to profit. Every year,

there were multi-million dollar losses. And then you take one big swing and negotiate one monster contract and a hell of an investment from Ted Turner himself. Hulk Hogan comes in almost immediately. Record ratings, record gate, biggest pay-per-view in WCW history. But in the booths,

start to creep in and you realize, hey, uh, they're ready for something new. But you go ask Polk and he doesn't want to do it. And now that he's agreed, do you even run this up the flagpole to Ted Turner or anyone above you to in the org chart that, hey, we made this huge investment in the all American good guy, the biggest baby face in the history of the business. And I'm going to change it all today. It feels like something you'd have to run past somebody here. I didn't. Now, if that were to happen today, I think I would have just out of courtesy and respect

because it is, you know, the right thing to do to keep people informed, especially with big moves like that. But at the time, it wasn't required of me, and I didn't volunteer for it. I mean, I was pretty much left alone. And when I say that, I was left alone because I was staying under budget and overpriced. producing. So when you're bringing in more money than you're projected to bring in and you're spending less money than you were projected to spend, people have a tendency not to mess with you much. And on top of that, it was WCW and nobody within Turner wanted anything to do with WCW.

They didn't even want us in the CNN Center. So it wasn't like I had all these executives pounding down my door trying to, you know, have input. Most of them didn't even want to make. eye contact. So I didn't have that problem that you would normally expect, you know, people wanting to get into your business and make themselves feel important or feel like they're critical to something. I didn't have any of that. I had, here's my limit. Eric, if you're going to spend a check, if you're going to write a check for more than a million dollars, you have to get it approved first. That's it. That was it. That was the extent to which I had to get anything approved or run things by people.

Now, again, I would do it differently today just because I've matured. And I just had more respect for people that I did at the time. But no, I didn't have to run anything by anybody. Well, it all worked out. So it wouldn't have mattered. I do want to ask, though, hypothetically, you know, if this, if this doesn't go this way and it doesn't work out and it doesn't go well and it's a flop. Would that have been the end of Pogan and WCW?

Do you think you would have blamed? Hulkser would have blamed you personally? I mean, what would your career have looked like if this doesn't hit? Like, the whole business changed for the good. But if it didn't work out, what would the consequences, what would the fallout look like, do you think? I don't think they would have been that severe. You know, we, look, when I took over WCW, we'll call it 93. heard me say this a million times.

It was a $25 million a year company losing $10 million a year. By 1995, we were knocking on the door profit. That's a pretty quick turnaround. And had the NWO turned bottomed out and not provided the success that it did, there would have been disappointment, but there wouldn't have had panic. Keep in mind, when we launched Night Show in 1995, we were competitive with WWE immediately. It didn't take us until 1996. People tend to forget that.

We came out of the shoot head to head. Week one, we didn't have any competition because there was a dog show going on. By week two, we were trading leads week to week. One week they'd win, next week I'd win. They'd win, we'd win. We'd win four, they'd win three. they'd win four we'd win three it was back to back from day one so in terms of ted turner's question to me which is what precipitated this whole thing which was a iric

what do we need to do to become competitive with wwee i did that day one right but check that box september whatever it was fourth 1995 check that box so it wouldn't have been like oh my gosh we but all of our eggs in this basket and the bottom fell out of the basket and all the eggs broke. It wouldn't have been that. It would have been back to the drawing port, but there would have been a lot of fallout. Let's talk a little bit about Sting. You mentioned that you finally sell him on the idea of being the bad guy, the phone rings, the Tolkogen.

I've never really followed up to say, how do you let Sting know? Do you pick up the phone and tell him immediately? Hey, sorry, I just hung up the phone with Hulk. Do you wait until the day of? when do you break the news to saying that, hey, change of plans, you're still a good guy? I honestly don't remember the conversation,

but I would have had it, if not immediately damn close to it. I wouldn't have, I wouldn't have struck Steve out. I would have done that. However uncomfortable that conversation would have had to have been, I would have had it ASAP, because waiting would only make it more difficult.

I honestly, I don't remember how I told him. It was rather insignificant. I think part of it was because Sting was kind of relieved. He wasn't going into this with like, oh, man, I can't wait. I can't wait to get out to him. It wasn't that. It was a more cerebral approach to it and managed.

That's the thing I said this before about Steve is a great. very much, I don't know what he's like now. He's a very thoughtful person. Like you, you lay something out to him and you can see him absorbing it. The wheels would turn very slowly and he'd start questioning things and he'd look at you like he's kind of doubting you, but what he's really doing is probing. He's trying to get into the idea, right, to fully understand it. But it kind of comes off as like, are you shipping me? You really, you want me to do what? That's the way it comes off with Steve, or it did at the time. And that's just just the way he processes things.

But he's a very thoughtful person. He doesn't, I never got a reaction out of him immediately. It was like present an idea. Three or four days later, he'd give you a call or see you, the next TV, follow up. He wasn't the type of guy, my experience at least, that would hear an idea and go, whoa, yeah, that's awesome. Let's do that. And along those same lines, when I pitched him the idea of being the third guy, it was weeks of conversation.

It wasn't like one or two conversations. It took a while to get him on board. But even once he got on board, I think there was a sense of relief that Hulk tag did. I don't think he was probably in some way. He'd have to be disappointed just because you would want to know what if. what if I would have done that, right? Human nature, competitive nature. But beyond that thought process of what if,

I think he was actually relieved. I know a lot of times people talk about wrestling politics. I'm not trying to stir any shit here when I asked this, but you mentioned that, you know, as awkward as that call may have been, when you make that call this thing, after you just sold him on the idea, now you're saying, well, never mind,

now Hulk wants to do it. And I even mentioned Well, I'm just saying like Sting has to understand Or he did understand he was deferential To the success that Hulk Hogan had in the pro wrestling business And it sounds like Hall in Nash 4th. When posed with the idea of, hey, Sting being the third man, I asked you, hey, would Sting have been the leader?

And he said, well, probably Nash But Nash and Hall, both I assume acquiesced and say, well, yeah, of course Hulk to be the leader. He's freaking Hulk Hogan. I guess the point I'm trying to make yes was everyone in WCW deferential to Hulk understandably so or do you remember some curious souls sort of pushing back saying

why would you pick him? Yeah. No, I think everybody understood. Yeah. It is I don't want to say disappointing but look Hulk coming to WCW absolutely immediately changed things.

Hulk Hogan and Rick Flair, bash at the beach, Orlando, Shaquille O'Neal and Hawke's Corner. Was it Shaquille Neal or George Foreman? One of the other. It was Shaquille O'Neal. It was a big damn deal. Yes.

I think that pay-per-view was the largest buy rate we'd ever had up until that point. And everybody recognized that was because of Holcogne. So look, were there people in the locker room who did like Hulk or had their own bag? with him, sure, of course. It's the talent business.

It's just, that's the way it is. But for the most part, when everybody showed up at work, they knew, they knew who was bringing the money in. I'll change things internally at WCW in a big way. Even more than the business necessarily reflected, the attitude, the fact that Ted Turner was excited about WCW and was putting himself out there, putting the company out there the way they were that had an effect on morale made everybody feel like wow we're not the red-headed stepchildren maybe to everybody well we are but everybody else we are but ted turner still likes us

you know that had value that made a difference let's talk about the day of here we are 30 years ago on the exact day who all knew that day like i'm curious you mentioned that as soon as you find out that Hogan's changed his mind. You call Sting fairly quickly. Made the comment you wouldn't have left him hanging like that. Do you call Hall and Nash and say, hey, I talk to the big man. He's in. How do you communicate that to Hall of Nash?

When do they find out? When does Savage and Lugar find out? When did Tony and Bobby find out? Tony and Bobby found out when it happened. Oh. I mean, Tony may tell you a different story, but I didn't tell them. and Bobby has been pissed at me until the day he died because I didn't tell him. But I'm good with it.

What was the question? I'm asking, when did you tell Hall and Nash the Hogan? Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh. I think I was in L.A. for something, and so was Kevin. I don't think Scott was there. And Kevin and I went to a bar. Can you imagine that? Two guys from Detroit going to a bar together.

And it was called the roadhouse? No, Thunderbird. It was some kind of a biker bar, a Sunset Boulevard in Hollywood. And Kevin and I met there for a beer and a burger or whatever. I think it was right then as when I laid it out to Kevin. And that was probably only a week or so before. So Kevin, I told Kevin. I mean, obviously, Sting knew.

Kevin Sullivan clearly knew. Nick Lambros, my attorney, would have known Hulk. That was really it. I don't know who Hulk told, obviously, but I didn't tell anybody until I had to. And like I said, I think I told Kevin a week or 10 days before, but nobody up until that point. At that point in their lives, would Hogan have told Randy? Or would you have told Randy? I wouldn't have told.

I didn't tell anybody. Until that day, I would say everybody had to find out that day. But I didn't tell Randy. And I wasn't worried about telling Randy because I knew Randy would understand. Randy more than anybody perhaps understood what a monumental risk this was. I mean, who made more money with Hogan and the red and yellow than Randy Savage? you ever have a conversation with Randy about the decision to turn Hogan heel or was it just something you guys never specifically. No, we know, but here's the thing with Randy.

He was so smart. He knew that if Hogan turns heel, what does that do for Randy? Who's probably number one on the list to work with Halk Hogan? So Randy was so smart. He saw the handwriting on the wall financially for not only for himself, but for the the company. So I wasn't worried at all about Randy. Um, I sound arrogant, but I wasn't, wasn't worried about anybody. You know, once, once I got past sting, because if anybody had a right to be pissed off at me, it would have been sting. Um, but once I got past sting and he

wasn't hot, I wasn't too worried about people finding out of half for the fact. What's interesting, too, is to think about from a wrestler perspective, you know, If you're just doing the old school, hey, we're going to make a list of our baby faces and our heels, and we're going to try to put them in order. Who's our top baby face? Who's our top heel? The minute Hogan comes in, if you were the prior top baby face, like a sting, guess what? Your number two baby face now.

Sorry. But when Hogan now moves to a heel, Sting immediately has an opportunity to be the number one baby face again. This moves up everybody on the baby face side, right? So does Randy. Yes. So does Lex. So do a lot of people. Roddy Piper.

Did you, of course, Piper is going to join us in October at Halloween Havoc, after he has a match with who? Randy Savage. It's Hollywood Hogan versus the Macho Man at Slim Jim's Halloween Havoc. So yeah,

that just makes total sense. And I love that this time, we see the opposite of what we saw with the first WrestleMania. you. It's not a heel, Roddy Piper and a babyface Hogan. No, we're going to switch roles, really, for the first time. So let's talk a little bit about real life for a minute. I've heard the story from Kevin Sullivan through the years that Hogan's agent was maybe not so excited about killing the golden goose here and turning his back on the red and yellow.

Do you remember having Hogan's conversations with Hogan about his agent directly with his agent. What did Linda think? Do you remember talking to Jimmy Hart about Hogan turning heel? Like, I know there's a lot of people in the background of Hulke's life. Now, you were close to him. Did you deal with, have to interface with any of them at that point? Or did he just kind of communicate to you what their thoughts were? I had, I got to know Peter Young, Hulk's agent at the time. And Peter and Halk went way back. I mean, I think Peter Young may have negotiated Hulk's first deal with Vince somewhere along the line or one of his first deals, whatever the story was. So Peter and Hulk went back a long time. And Hulk was a very

loyal guy. Like once Hulk kind of brought you into his circle, you had to really screw up to get kicked out of it. And Peter was a very loyal friend. You know, I'm going to say some things about Peter that can be less than flattering professionally. But as a human being, Peter Young was a really good person. Is. a really good person and loved Hulk and thought in his own mind he was protecting Hulk. He was really protecting himself because he was afraid that if Hulk Hogan were to turn heel, whatever, you know, whatever commercial work, whatever sponsorship deals, whatever spokesperson deals, whatever movie cameos.

And Peter Young was, you know, he wasn't like an A-list agent. He was a smaller agent and a smaller boutique agency. But he loved Halt and he worked hard for Halt. But he was definitely concerned that if Halk Hogan turned heel, his business was going to dry up. And I knew that. I knew the kind of person that Peter was. So I avoided him. I didn't want to have a conversation with Peter Young about it.

I knew where he was going to come out on it. I knew what his motivation was, and it wasn't WCW's best interest. In his mind, it was Hulk. He was protecting Halt, but as I said a few moments ago, he was really protecting himself more than he was protected Holt. He was protecting his opportunity to make money off of Holt. And what I was asking Holt to do represented a threat. So knowing that, there was no reason for me to have too many conversations with Peter

because I wasn't going to change his mind. Just it is what it was. I never talked to Linda about it. That would have been, I never had those kinds of cars. I never talked business with Linda. A lot of social stuff. I mean, I had fun with Linda. Don't get me wrong.

You know, it didn't turn out the way I think we all would have loved it to turn out. But there was a point in time when Linda was a hoot. She was fun to be around. She could throw a hell of a Christmas party, too, I might add. But I didn't talk to her about business. That was really it. You know, and then there's the, the perennial kind of hangers on.

You know, I won't drop names here, but we all know who they were. But they weren't really a problem. They were an aggravation, but not a problem. They were an irritant, but not an injury. Let's put it that way. Let's talk about the match itself, something you and I have never spent any time talking about. And we often talk about this on the WWF side of things.

I would ask guys like, hey, who was the agent for this match? I'm not pretending that you would remember that for this one in particular. But with so many top talent, I am curious. Do you think this is something that Kevin Sullivan would have tried to shepherd along? Because the match is important, sure, but it serves more as a backdrop to the payoff to this story. So who would have been involved in sort of laying out the structure of, hey, we're going to, we're going to wheel Lex off. And then at this point, Hogan's going to come down.

I'm sure Hogan has input input in what he does at that point. Are you running point on that? The actual mechanics of the execution. Who goes through that that day? Kevin Sullivan. I was not. I didn't have the experience, the confidence, or the talent to lay out a finish. That's an art.

Laying out a match and laying out a great finish is an art in and of itself. And it wasn't a talent that I had, so I didn't even try. I found other people who were better at it than me. And Kevin Sullivan would have taken lead on that for sure. But in fairness, Kevin would have been right in. He would have been in the pit with Scott, with Kevin, and with Hulk. It wasn't like Kevin Sullivan sat back there, Twitter, and some said, all right, guys, this is what we're going to do.

Wasn't that. It was a collaborative effort, input from everybody. But it would have been Kevin Sullivan, not Eric Bishop, at the nucleus of that conversation. How talented was Kevin in that role? Was he good at making. making something other people's idea, getting them to buy into it and take ownership of it. Because if you're trying to deal with these giant egos,

and sometimes these egos are going to get dinged up a little bit in the execution of some of these stories, it feels like there's going to be a fine art to communicating with talent. How was Kevin at that? Kevin was excellent because Kevin had certainly Hulk respected Kevin. And this probably goes back to their previews. relationships and just Florida guys and all that, right? But Halt trusted Kevin. Number one, that's like 60 or 70% of the battle. If you can get talent to trust you, you're almost

Halt. So Kevin had that going for him. Kevin was also, I think, if I had to kind of fine-tune what made him the most talented, A, understood the business, and he understood of heat better than most. Dusty Rhodes told me that. I hired Kevin because of Dusty Rhodes. When Dusty was booked in, I said, Dusty, you need some help, you need some support. You can have anybody you want. Who do you want? You want to Kevin Sullivan. So I got Kevin Sullivan. Now, Dusty ended up making a lateral move there for a little while and Kevin moved into that top spot. But Kevin also had the ability to hear. hear other people's idea. So Kevin had his own idea and then he could listen to your idea

and he could find the right way to take the best of your idea, the best of his idea, find a way to make it fit and more often than not at work. That's what Kevin was good at. Let's talk a little bit about the match itself. It gets underway and you've told us the story that at some point you throw on a cap, you go see. this all unfold in the crowd. I love that story because it does feel like, you know, here you are, this young executive,

you've got some momentum, finally showed the thing profitably. You've done well. You've been competitive head to head with WWB. You've had bigger gates, bigger pay-per-views, you've got Hulk freaking Hogan, and this almost feels like

you're at a craps table at the casino and you're going to throw the dice, and now you want to see what are the hits and you throw a cap on and you go do just that. Do you remember at what point in the match you did that and about where in the arena do you think you were? I remember where I was because I was kind of like in the center of as far up as you could get because I went all the way up to the top and kind of walked down a few rows to find a seat. And I would have been directly across from the hard camera. I would have been facing the hard camera up high, looking down to my right would have been the entrance.

So I can see it in my head. What was the second part of that question? Well, I'm just curious, you know, at one point in the show or in the match did you go out? Like, did you have a cue? Did you go with someone else? I went out right away. I went out before the entrance. I wanted to see the entrance.

And when, when Hogan comes down, Do you remember there being significant discussion with him beforehand about what his body language or his demeanor needed to look like? Because for years and years, we did see a certain, I don't know, an animation of sorts where Hulk Hogan comes through and, man, his arms are moving and his head is moving. And he, and this is a little different. Was that a Kevin Sullivan thing or is that just Mr. Balea with feel? What do you think? I think that was that was Hulk. That was just Hulk feeling the moment.

knowing it. He didn't need, no, I didn't talk to him about that. Once I was confident that he had his promo down and knew what he was going to say once it was all over, my job was kind of done. I was, again, I wasn't evolving out the match. So there was, I did my job. You know, I did, I contributed to everything I was capable of contributing and then I just step back to see it all play out.

Let's talk about the referee for a minute. I don't know that we've ever really talked about this. But at some point, we know they're going to dispense of the referee. And Hogan's going to drop the leg. Not once, not twice, but three times. And then he's going to make the cover. Technically, he is a participant in the match, but I don't know that he legally tagged in.

So he wasn't the legal man. None of that matters. There's no referee there to count the freaking thing. I mean, no matter what we want to say about wins and losses, it's clear the baby faces left the ring that night with their tail tucked between their legs. Lex Lugar left on a stretcher and Holt Cogan is a bad guy. That's the real story. Was there ever any discussion, did everything go exactly according to plan or were they just

calling an audible out there and they realized, hey, we don't need it. It's not necessary. I can't tell you that. I don't think there was any audible. I think everything that went on out there was discussed prior. I don't think there was anything left for chance. So, whatever was determined was going to be the finish in the rain. Referee, no referee would have been determined prior to the match. I mean, there's no doubt that Hogan is hammering the point home, not one leg drop, not two, but three. And then Scott Hall slides down and makes that count one, two, three.

And then here comes the trash. Now, at times in years later, or months after this, this would become a trend in WCW. and the volume would get more and more dangerous. And eventually it eventually got to a spot where we said, hey, as cool of a visual as that was, we got to stop doing that shit. This was a liability.

And it got out of hand on the WWF side of things as well in 1997. But that night in 96, a ring full of trash was almost like out of a movie. It was the cherry on top, was it not? It was money. That wasn't garbage in that ring. That was cash in that ring.

It was such an amazing thing, and it's still to this day, and for me, I had never experienced a crowd reaction like that. I'd never been in front of a sell-up up up until that point. My success in the wrestling business was fairly limited up until that point. So to see a sold-out arena, to see the kind of emotion that that match, that story, elicited from the audience and to feel it, not just see it, watching it on television, but to be there in a $12 seat, a silly cowboy hat or a cap on and a pair of sunglasses, it's pretty freaking awesome for me.

Just to experience it as a fan. It's hard to describe it. The energy was so unbelievable. And I was just like a kid. I was a spectator at that point because, again, all my work was done, everything I could do. Now I just got to,

I just have to sit back and enjoy it like everybody else. Something we haven't really talked about before is, and this gets edited out of all the WWE replays, not only is trash coming into the ring, a really big guy gets in the ring too, not one of the boys, but a fan. And he's trying to confront the heels.

Nash is going to knock the guy out with a forearm and an elbow. Scott Hawthams over to stomp the dude's head in. like he's trying to kill a rattles. I mean, this is a real scene here. I understand why it's been edited all. But as a performer, that's got to be like the most exciting rush. Hey, they really are pissed for real. Are the guys on a high when they come to the back?

And what are they talking about the most? Is it the trash? Is it the promo? Is it the collective gas for the audience? The fan who jumped in the ring? It feels like sensory overload if you're one of those guys. It was all of the above times 10. It was everything.

I mean, I had never experienced anything like that. Guess what? 90% of that locker room had never experienced it either. They're WCW guys. The only guys had experienced the kind of thing that we saw there were people that came from WWE. And had wrestled in front of sellouts. And it wrestled.

Now, they didn't, even they didn't experience anything like the Hulk Hogan turn because that was real legitimate heat. And real legitimate heat is something that WWE is not known for. They're formulaic heat, but it's not real heat, in my opinion. Name me one real good heel in WWE in the last 30 years. Yeah, that's what I thought. There's people that play the role of heels, and they do an adequate job in that role, in the sense that they're getting the baby face over,

so functionally they're effective. but it's not the same thing as real heat. That's Pavlov's dog's heat. Pavlov's dog heat, not real heat. So a lot of the people were experiencing the same thing I was. Like, oh, good. This is crazy. It was just overwhelming emotionally.

It was sensory overload. You said it. That's exactly what it was. It was a magical moment. I do want to talk a little bit about Bobby Heenan, on commentary. Of course, people have for years given him shit about when he's coming, when Hogan's coming to the ring, Bobby Heenan, who's been in an on-screen feud with Hulk Hogan since 1985, so over a decade, says, but whose side is he on?

Some people would say later, oh, he's spoiled the surprise. But the thing is, it would have been so foreign for Hulk Hogan to be a bad guy. I don't think anybody ever even considered that as a possibility, even as Bobby was saying it, was there any pushback or backlash or heat on Bobby from anybody about that line? Zero. Zero. And Bobby had been burying Hulk Hogan since the beginning of Hulk Hogan time. Right? I mean, this is like, that was this thing. He didn't always put heat on Hogan. So it was perfectly within his character. I didn't. didn't tell them anything otherwise. It didn't bother me a bit. And, you know, people that make a big deal out of that are people that are trying to prove how smart they are. It didn't matter. It

didn't ruin it for anybody. People had heard those kind of comments on the Bobby since the beginning of Hulk Hogan time. It wasn't unusual. He didn't ruin anything at all. I didn't even notice it until way after the fact. And certainly I didn't say anything to him. Just again, I didn't, I didn't clue him in on anything. I wanted his reaction to be as real as it could be. It was. It was great. Hogan's promo that night, you've mentioned before that you briefly had a little

conversation with Scott Hall that night in making Georgia before he makes his debut, not necessarily that you were writing the promo for him, but you're certainly giving him sort of bullet points, talking points. Hey, here's the kind of the beats of the story you're trying to accomplish. what sort of prep goes into Hogan's promo is that you and him talking is that him talking with all of Nash and as Kevin Sullivan involved in that how for lack of a better word scripted or structured was Hulk Hogan's promo that note Hulk didn't like notes like if we write stuff up for him he'd pretend he's looking at and he set it down so it's like why bother Hulk was really

comfortable that's the way he came up he felt really comfortable comfortable with Gene Oakland because Gene would take the time and go through the internet. They'd rehearse it together a bunch of times. And, you know, they go back and forth and Hulk will change a few things and Gene will set them up a little differently and maybe Hulk to add a little bit here and take out a little bit there. So it was kind of like this collaborative process that was essentially notes, but without the paper, right?

It was all verbal rehearsal, walked through it, talk through it. and then go out and do it. And that was, that was 100% Hulk and I. There was nobody else involved in that. Hulk, it's awkward to say, but Hulk leaned on me for that part of it. I was good at it.

He was comfortable with me. He knew that if he dropped the ball somewhere along the line, I could pick it up. He also knew that if I dropped the ball somewhere along the line, he'd pick it up. So when you get that kind of comfort zone, out there. It allows you to improv a little bit more confidently and to try some things that you might not otherwise try if everybody's sticking to the paper or the script. But it was all just talking and walking

through it. When you really think back on that day, you know, I know you're in the crowd watching Kevin Nash has said before, and I'm sure some of this is just hyperbole because we're all trying to tell stories. Kevin says he didn't know for sure Hogan was really going to go through with it until he came through the curtain. But I'm saying you as a guy who knew the real life, Terry Belaya, even if you knew he was committed to it and he was into it and he was going to do it, could you see just watching the promo there being like a switch flip or you're like, oh, he's feeling it now. He's all the way in. Was it the trash? Was it something else? I do remember being surprised at the level of intensity.

So to Kevin's point, I don't think it's hyperbole. I don't, because I saw Hulk shortly before he went out backstage, and I was pretty confident at that point he was going to go through it. If he was going to balk, he would have balked earlier in the evening. and since he didn't, I wasn't concerned is he going to do it? Is he not going to do it? I was pretty convinced he was going to go through it. But I was surprised at the level of intensity

that we got out of that promo. He enjoyed it a lot more than I thought he would. Let's put it that way. I thought he would have been more tentative. I thought he would have been more careful. Because he really was concerned about, you know, kids and people that believed in Halcomania, and we can all, you know, dismiss that

and think, you know, it's just his ego or whatever. but he was right. And that Hulk Hogan, to this day, still means a lot to an awful lot of people. Now, a lot of those people are 40 and 50 years old now, but when they were kids, when they were eight or 10 years old, Hulk Hogan mattered to them.

And he did have a sense of responsibility to that segment of his audience. In the Hogan promo, he's going to reference the new blood here in WCW, and he's going to talk about the new world organization. of professional wrestling. Had you sort of communicated to him, hey, we're going to call this the NWO or the New World Order? Is he miss speaking here?

Or had you not even really settled on what you're going to call it? Because that's not important. Yeah, what's most important is let's align Hogan with these guys. And we can reveal what the name of the damn thing is on Nitro. What was the thinking there? No, I did give him New World Order. Now, Hulk came up with New World Wrestling. organization, whatever he improv, that was more of a stumble.

Yeah. But I did steal the New World Order from Larry Zubisco. Yeah. Those words came out of my mouth. I thought I originated them. Clearly it didn't. But no, New World Order was specifically part of the promo that I gave, and he just improvised it a little bit.

When it's this overwhelming success and everybody knows they've struck gold, and I'm sure it just had to be euphoria backstage. What did Hogan's agent say? What did Jimmy and some of the other guys who maybe had made a living on the yellow and red for so long? Was anybody eating crow? Was anybody high five? Was there relief? Or was it just never spoken of again because it worked so well and they were off to the race?

It was like everybody was so elated. That was the most success WCW had ever experienced as a company. That moment. in July of 1996 was the most successful moment in WCW history up until that point. And there was nobody that was in that building, including talent and production, that wasn't feeling that excitement. It is amazing, you know, all these years later, you know, as we're recording right now, I'm sure there's a near-capacity crowd for Monday Night Raw.

There's going to be thousands in attendance for dynamite and, and collision and T&A this week and certainly smackdown this weekend. There's going to be NWO shirts and all those crowds. And I think that tells you the impact that this particular day, this particular story, this particular anniversary made. Because let's not forget, when people talk about, hey, who was the biggest star in the history of the business, they often talk about Hulk Hogan and Stone Cold Steve Austin.

But when Stone Cold turned heel and joined Vince McMan, man, that's looked back at like it was a major misstep. Like that's when the business started to go down. And then in more recent years, man, we all begged for a John Cena heel turn until we got it. And it was just a, I mean, nobody's ever going to talk about those on their 30 year anniversary and talk about what a huge boon this was to business. But it was for the NWO and the ripple effects were still felt to this day. And it's hard to believe it was. 30 years ago today.

Why did it work so well? And it feels like it's just been a Hulk Hogan PR show, but that's what this is the anniversary of. And I don't think it works as well without Hulk Hogan. I don't think it could have ever been anybody else but Hul Kogan. Like if it was Sting, if it was

Lex Lugar, if it was Randy Savage, are we celebrating it today? Or is it just a footnote and passing? It's all Hogan, right? It's all Hogan. It would not have been the same. It would have been good. It just sounds like I want to crap on it all. If it would have been saying, it would have been good.

If it would have been Lex, although I didn't think about it until this afternoon, it would have been good. It could have been good. If it would have been ready, it could have been good. But we wouldn't be talking about it 30 years from now. And NWO merchandise wouldn't be flying off the racks at www.com. Is there one thing that you wish people knew more or thought of more or talked about more for Bash at the Beach, 1996?

I mean, here we are 30 years later, you and I've been talking about it for seven freaking years. We'll talk about it another seven freaking years, I hope. But realistically, is there one little nugget that you wish people knew that we've not disclosed about Batchett Beach 96 or did we get it all? Dude, I think we covered this thing about as good as it can be covered. In fact, I don't think I want to talk about it again until next year. We've talked about it a lot, but we've talked about it a lot because it was. important. Yes. And, you know, the wrestling industry is filled with a lot of delusional souls who buy in to the make-believe of it all. And their make-believe extends into the real world

in many, many ways. So you'll hear things like it changed the business forever or whatever kind of accolades people love to throw out there and kind of position themselves. accordingly. But I know this is going to, so over the top, I've set up before, I'll say it again. I don't think we'd be watching the WWE that we're watching today had it not been for the NWL, had it not been for Nitro. I'm absolutely 100% convinced of that. And maybe I'm the delusional one, but I'll, I'll take that risk, because if you just look at facts, you look at the numbers, You look at where WWE was all the way up until a year after we got done kicking her ass when Vince finally threw in the towel and said, okay, enough of the kiddie shit.

We're going after adult men with the attitude era. We forced that change. Forced it with hammers and shizzles, blunt force. We forced that change. And that change is what catapulted WWE, as we know it today. They were able to go public. But Vince finally jumped on board and then Russo decided, let's go do what they're doing, because it's really working over there.

Let's come up with our own, however the process started. Had it not been for that decision, you know, obviously Vince made it. McMahon, had he not made that decision, I don't think WWE goes, public. WWE doesn't go public. I don't think we're looking at the WWE that we're watching today. In that regard,

I think the NWO mattered more than just about anything else that's happened in the wrestling business in the last 50 years. Other than Vince McMahon taking the company over from his father and going national. That's number one. Nitro's number two.

NWO. It's number two, my opinion. it was a perfect night and and everybody played their role including our pal tony shivani who had an impromptu line that will live on in infamy let's take a listen i'm tony shivani halk and you can go to hell we're out of here straight to hell it just felt real didn't it sure did it's because he didn't know yeah because he was pissed he was pissed at me that's awesome that's what a good director does, brings out a motion. That's how you get people to feel shit. Not watching finishes and, oh my gosh, this is awesome.

That's bullshit, as your dad would say, that's bullshit. That's not what sells tickets. That's not what builds audience. It's not what grows your business. It's just bullshit. But when you can make them feel, when you can make them angry, when you can make them feel full of joy, when you can make them feel satisfied,

that's when you own them. Well, you owned us all 30 years ago, Eric. It was real wrestling history. And as the first listener of this program, I want to say thank you because it changed wrestling forever. And I think we can all agree that the NWO is for life. Happy anniversary, Eric. Thanks, everybody.

We'll see you next week on 83. weeks with Eric Fish, y'all.