83 Weeks with Eric Bischoff - Episode 441: Living The Gimmick

Episode Date: August 24, 2026

On this episode of 83 Weeks, Eric Bischoff and Conrad Thompson dive into recent comments from Paul Heyman about the development and evolution of Roman Reigns' legendary "Tribal Chief" persona. That sparks a fascinating conversation about one of professional wrestling's oldest philosophies: living the gimmick. How important is it for a performer to truly become their character? Eric shares his perspective on authenticity, presentation, and why the most believable wrestling personalities often blur the line between the person and the performer. Then, the guys turn the clock back 30 years for This Week in nWo History! The New World Order is running wild, WCW is fighting for survival, and the road to WarGames is heating up! Eric and Conrad revisit the build toward the massive Team WCW vs. Team nWo showdown and discuss how the hottest storyline in wrestling continued to change the industry in 1996.     THIS WEEKS SPONSORS INDACLOUD - If you're 21 or older, get 30% OFF your first order @IndaCloud with code 83WEEKS at https://inda.shop/83WEEKS ! #indacloudpod DRAFT KINGS - New DraftKings customers, sign up with code 83WEEKS spend $5 to get $200 in rewards within 21 days - includes all markets. That's code 83WEEKS. In Partnership with DraftKings. The Crown Is Yours. BLUECHEW - When you buy two months of BlueChew Gold, you get the third FREE with promo code 83WEEKS. You will also receive an additional 10% OFF + Free overnight shipping on your first order. Visit http://BlueChew.com  for more details and important safety information ROCKET MONEY - Cancel your unwanted subscriptions and reach your financial goals faster with Rocket Money. Go to http://RocketMoney.com/83WEEKS  SAVE WITH CONRAD - Stop throwing money away by paying those high interest rates on your credit card. Roll them into one low monthly payment and on top of that, skip your next two house payments. Go to https://www.savewithconrad.com  to learn more. PODCAST HEAT - Want to grow your business with the power of podcast advertising? Reach loyal, engaged audiences through trusted host endorsements across the Podcast Heat network. Learn more at PodcastHeat.com

Today's episode comes to you from the Blue Chew Studio. When you buy two months of Blue Chew Gold, you get the third for free with the promo code 83 weeks. It's also receiving an additional 10% off plus free overnight shipping on your first order at Bluechew.com. Hey, hey, it's Conrad, the Mortgage Guy, and you're listening to 83 weeks with Eric Fish Off, Eric. What's going on, man?

How are you? I am doing great. Conrad. We had a great weekend in Cleveland. Our one year anniversary is in the history books. Great event and looking forward to what's next. Year 2 is going to be a lot going on in year 2. We've made some fantastic progress with some great partners

and looking forward to growing even more in year 2. Yeah, it's been phenomenal to see how quickly real American freestyle has caught on probably the fastest growing sport in the world. world right now. And what's interesting, too, is you're taking it international. You just are fresh off of an event in Georgia, but this, uh, in Cleveland was the 12th. I guess we call it domestic show. But you've got another international event coming up, uh, right around Labor Day. You guys are heading over to Moscow. All the details are available now at real American freestyle.com. Of course, you can see the entire show this past weekend in Cleveland. Uh, did you

ever, I mean, listen, I knew that you expected success. Everyone hopes for the best and we're all delusional optimists at heart. But would anyone have, have suggested or predicted the immediate success of Real American Freestyle? Like, it feels like with almost any other form of entertainment, it takes a little bit more time to get some momentum. You guys have so much momentum momentum coming out of year one. It almost feels kind of unprecedented, Eric. I think it is in a lot of ways. You know, it's hard to compare what we've accomplished to anything else out there. Because as you said, I mean, this is really the fastest growing sport in the world right now. I don't know how long we'll be able to sustain that.

But clearly, if you look at the growth that we've experienced and in the buzz, you know, little things, you know, anecdotal type stuff. For example, when I landed in Cleveland a couple days ago, there were fans with their RAF merch waiting to get autographs from some of the wrestlers that were coming. in. And I love seeing that, you know, because that's just, it's just a reflection of the energy that we've created, the interest that we've created. And you love seeing it manifests in real life, you know, people waiting for you at the airport. The turnout that we're getting, 10,000 people or so in Cleveland, I think we may have, I don't know, I'm going to compare it to WWE, you know, when they get to town next week. But I want to look at those numbers pretty closely because we're kicking ass ticket wise. And I know, you know, the experts like your

buddy Dave Belser projected that saying was like no one's going to watch it. It was going to be a failure along with a lot of other people. And to just kind of stick it in their face is kind of fun. Nobody expected it. And to answer your real question, you know, did I expect it? Absolutely not. I am terminally optimistic as an entrepreneur. And it can either be a burden or a blessing. It's about 50-50. And I, it's a little bit like the NWO. Did I know it was going to be successful? Sure. I know the NWO was going to probably pretty successful. I thought success at that point was like a good three months run storyline wise, maybe six months. I had no idea that it was going to have the kind of cultural impact and impact on the industry that ultimately it had. And the same is true here.

Did I know that, did I believe, I should say that Real American Freestyle was going to be a success? Yes, I did. I really did. I had a lot of confidence in my ability to turn amateur wrestling into an entertaining product vis-a-vis the format that I helped create and develop in sports entertainment. And I just believed I could. And I believe that amateur wrestling, freestyle wrestling, nobody was it was a white white space there was nobody in it and such an important part of combat sports if you look at it I've said this many times you look at the UFC or any MMA organization anybody that's really good at it comes from a freestyle Greco amateur wrestling background so since wrestling is the foundation of MMA in many respects it made sense to me that we would be able to grow

and attract some of that MMA audience because it's gotten so sophisticated over the past 20 years. By that, I mean 20 years ago, 25 years ago, you would have walked into a bar and see 10 guys sitting at the bar drinking beer at 25 to 39 years old somewhere in that neighborhood, tap each one of them on the backs.

I got $10,000 in this bag. If you could tell me what a rear naked choke is, I'll give you the bag. None of them could have done it. Rear naked choke sounds like something you see on Pornhub. Now you go into that same bar, find 10 guys 25, 39, 49, whatever, ask them if they know what a rear-necked show goes for a bag of 10K.

And they could not only tell you, probably eight of them could not only tell you what it is, they could demonstrate it for you. That's how much more knowledgeable the UFC MMA audience has become over the past 30 years. Well, because they become more knowledgeable, because they understand what really makes MMA work and where the stars come from, there's a lot. There's interests amongst that UFC, MMA, you know, any organization community in seeing some of these stars from MMA compete at Real American Freestyle because it's, it kind of gives you some insight as to how good they really are. So it's, did I expect it to be successful?

I felt pretty confident that I think we would accomplish what we've accomplished in 12 months. I would be lying through my teeth. I told you I saw that coming. It's been amazing. It's been super fun to watch from the outside. It's been super fun to watch on Fox Nation. You can catch this past weekend's event from Cleveland, R-A-F-12, right there on Fox Nation. Just a couple bucks a month.

And you'll be logged in in time to see them in Moscow on September 5th. And two weeks later, back here, stateside in Miami. Kobe Covington will be in the main event of that one on September 19th. Grab your tickets right now at Real American Freestyle. com. So excited for all of your success with real American freestyle, but we're going to talk about pro wrestling today, sports entertainment today. There you go. We've got a lot to cover. Let's talk a little bit about an interview that we saw with Paul Heyman and with The Undertaker. They did a podcast last week for WWE's fanatics platform. And anytime Paul Heyman does a guest appearance, you get a little

bit of a scoop or a little bit of a strong opinion. We love to talk about Paul Heyman on this program. And one of the things they touched on was the end of the street. And I know you weren't technically involved with pro wrestling when that happened, but it was WrestleMania 30. It was in New Orleans. And it's been a hot button issue ever since. That was 2014.

Here we are 12 years later, still talking about it. And Heyman had a pretty interesting take on that. He says, no one remembers the match. they remember the finish. They remember the crowd reaction. To me, the moment was when the scoreboard changed. The audience knew at that moment, oh my God, this is really happening.

Then you feel the rumble in the crowd. We're witnessing something we never thought we get to witness. That tells a lot about our industry and that it's not about everything. It's about the moment. People remember the finish, the moment, and the emotion. They don't have to really remember the match itself. If the moment is what you're building towards and you, deliver, that's the memory.

12 years later, it's still a sore spot because of that, not because people are saying during the match I was expecting this. And as much as Hogan and Andre from WrestleMania 3 is the WrestleMania moment of the early days, or Austin and Tyson being the attitude era moment, to me, this generation, that's the moment. I absolutely love Heyman breaking this down because I think, man, he is so, spot on. Like if you think back as we're celebrating 30 years of the NWO, everyone remembers Scott Hall walking down the steps on Monday Nitro. Only a handful of people could tell you who was

actually wrestling in the match that he interrupted. And when Hogan dropped the leg 30 years ago this summer, almost no one remembers anything that happened to the match before that and almost maybe even less would remember there wasn't technically a finish for that. No referee counted three. none of it mattered. It was the moments, Eric, that we all gravitate to, that we all remember. Those have been burned into our memory and almost everything else around it, respectfully, is insignificant relative to this huge moment. And I think he's exactly spot on.

When you think back to the streak ending, what did we see more of in the replays? Clips of the match, clips of the pen, or the reaction shots of the crowd. the shocked faces of the crowd help tell the story and make that moment even bigger. I think if you remove crowd reactions from either the Hogan, what trash moment, you know, when he turns 30 years ago, or the shocked faces. Like the black dude with the bug eyes immediately,

that becomes burned into my mind when I think about the streak. And I was actually in the building, Eric, and I agree with what Heyman says here that we in the, in the audience, we thought maybe it was a mistake. oh, they're going to restart the match. It's some sort of a screw job. Here it comes. Somebody's going to come out and start something.

But when the graphic popped up on the scoreboard, 21 and 1, it had a ripple effect. Like, oh, God, that was really it. It was a surreal experience in my wrestling fandom. But I love so much that we're not talking about the match, Eric. We're talking about the moment. Heyman was right on the money. He's really a smart guy. And I love listening to him break things down too because he comes at it from such a, first of all, he's got a lot of experience.

I mean, I first met Paul working for the AWA back in 1987, right? So I've known Paul for a long time, and he's been in the business for a long time. And he's just got a unique perspective and understanding of the psychology and what makes things work. And I love what he had to say because those moments are a manifestation of story. You can't have a big moment in a memorable moment without a story that precedes it, that engages the audience, that creates stakes that matter, that the audience can relate to. That's what made, that's what, to me, what made Paul say so interesting because it really is about story and payoff.

It's not about gymnastics and martial ballet, which is, which is, what a lot of wrestling looks like today. It was interesting. I just listened to a clip from a podcast from Taker talking about this very thing. His podcast, I think it was. So it's fascinating that Paul brings that to the forefront because I think the more sophisticated audience, and I'm not talking about the Internet wrestling community, they are the least sophisticated audience out there.

They're the most reactive and the loudest, but they're the least sophisticated, meaning they really don't understand what makes this stuff work. They just like to watch it and complain about it and argue about it. But I think the vast majority of the audience understands how important story is and can relate to what Paul was suggesting because it's all forms of entertainment. Sports, movies, a good book. The story and the payoff are symbiotic. You can't really have a good one without a great the other.

Super fun, fascinating discussion here. Matches and moments. I do think moments are the things that we emotionally connect with. And that's what we're always going to gravitate to. But I did want to ask about his perspective. You know, he makes the comparison to the early days. And he talks about Hogan and Andre and the Body Slam at WrestleMania 3. He mentions Austin and Tyson at WrestleMania 14.

And then he says of this generation, probably the streak ending. I'm fascinated by that. Do you think that's the number one moment of this more modern era or does something else come to mind? You know, I don't, I can't think of anything that's a bigger moment than the street. The story was a big moment, but it wasn't a shocking necessarily. That's why it's hard for me to, you know, I'd have to sit down and think about it for a couple hours because so much has happened, you know, since the streak, so to speak, but or ended. I think there's been such great story from time to time, but you're right. Not a moment.

And look, undefeated. I mean, the stakes, in this case with Undertaker and the streak and breaking that streak, how do you find stakes in any story that are equal to that? It's a little hard. It's a big moment. It's history. And it's history on the bubble. You know, so that's probably why we can't think of a bigger moment because there hasn't been mistakes nearly as significant.

Let's talk through that. You know, there was some discussion about the way they booked Oba and Brock. You know, the idea being some people thought it was a mistake to have Brock feed Oba. Obviously, they wound up doing a best of three and he passed the torch and all that sort of thing. but I can't help but think when people were complaining about Brock beating Oba that it almost makes me wonder are there people out there is there a place right now to establish another undefeated streak like Bill Goldberg had like is there I'm not saying that that works forever we all know it has to end at some point but has it been long enough

Eric do you think that you could start to position the guys like the next buzzsaw for the heavyweight division, the next Mike Tyson, the next Bill Goldberg. Is there a place where that could still work in 2026 or are we past that, do you think? I think it could still work, but you'd have to let more time go by doing it too quickly, rushing into a streak kind of creative story, um, so much of Goldberg or trying to achieve, you know what when you're not going to achieve an undertaker achieved in the near future, but trying to create, you know, a streak of sort.

sports, more like Goldbergs than Undertakers. Is it possible? Yes. I would probably wait another year or so, because if you do it too soon, it doesn't feel authentic. That's a big part of this stuff. You know, authenticity is everything sports entertainment. The more authentic it feels, the more organic it feels, the more the audience will suspend their disbelief. The more they'll lean into what you're doing, the more they'll be aware. willing to connect to the story and the characters and come back every week for it.

In order to get there, it has to be believable. There has to be some authenticity. So I think doing it too soon would be rushed. But when the time comes, whenever that time is, it could be done. It has to be done really carefully so that people don't see through it and start immediately doing what most people would do if you do it too soon. And it's too obvious is, oh, they're just trying to rerun a Goldberg angle. You don't want that. He wanted to almost come from out of nowhere in order for people to believe in it. But sure, it could be done.

It's got to be the right talent. You know, Bill worked in his role because we realized how limited he was. That wasn't his fault. He was just new. You can't pack 10 years of experience in front of a live audience in 12 months in the power plant or anywhere else. for that matter. I talked a lot about that. You know, you got to do this out in front of people to get the real experience you need. But we were smart enough to recognize, at least occasionally, we were smart enough to recognize that Bill had certain limitations and build his story

and his matches around what he could do while minimizing any risks in terms of including things that he didn't do very well, which would take away from his character. And that's where it gets difficult. You know, keep it simple, stupid is about the best advice you can give to somebody who's going to try to build that, that street type story is keep it simple, keep it relatable, don't overcomplicate it. But yeah, I think it could happen. It probably will happen somewhere along the line should have. I don't know if it can happen in WWE.

It feels like WWE really likes to do 50-50 booking. I know that that was a criticism. them a lot during Vince's era, but I mean, even in modern times, I think we would look and we would say, why did they have that guy lose here? So we'll see. What do you guys think? Let us know in the comments below. Do you think an undefeated streak could work like Bill Goldberg did way back in 1998? Could that work in 2026? Do we believe that? Could we get behind that? Would we reject that? Love to have your answers over at YouTube. It's 83 weeks.com. Eric, I wanted to ask you, too, you know, when you think about the streak itself, I know it probably makes you happy

that people are still discussing it 12 years later because there's some controversy there. But there are two schools of thought on that. Hey, uh, Brock Lesnar wasn't the right guy to end the street. And then when you press and you say, hey, well, who should have? Rarely does anyone come up with an answer? And then it feels like the default argument is, well, the streak should have never ended. So I wanted your perspective. do you think, if it were up to you,

would the streak have ended, would the Undertaker have held a record that almost becomes like this unbreakable record from another sport, whether it was baseball or football or basketball, an undefeated streak at WrestleMania sounds interesting, but it also sounds kind of anti-pro wrestling. It feels like,

hey, you always put somebody over on your way out sort of thing. I don't believe in that bullshit. That's old school. That's just, you know, That's just country boy bullshit. It's, yeah, that's the way the business used to be. And if you're going to operate in today's world the way the business used to be, good luck with that.

Now, I would have left the streak intact. I was disappointed. It was a golden opportunity to create Babe Ruth, a character that lives forever. Not that Hulk won't, or when the time comes, Rick Flair or Steve Austin, so many of the real legends, you know, guys that were on top for a long time, and main events for a long time. We're not talking about professional mid-carders that had a 20-year mid-card career. We're talking about main eventers, you know, in pay-per-views that have been doing it for years and years.

All of those guys will be remembered for generations. But only one could have been remembered for her being undefeated. And I just wouldn't have given that up for a match. Brock didn't need it. Why did Brock need to be the guy? Brock was so over. He was at 100% of his maximum overness. He wasn't going to get any more over by defeating Undertaker and breaking the street.

No, I would have preserved it, especially knowing that you're going to be working with Mark Callis in the future, not as the Undertaker. the ring necessarily, but as the guy that played that character, he's very active in, in WWE. So it's just, you know, Hall of Fame is one thing, but an undefeated streak in a Hall of Fame. That's, that's, that's a conversation piece. Yeah, I can't come up with, with who I would have wanted to end the streak. I guess if you're going to end it, Brock is fine, but I agree with you. I think it would have been cool. It's to be one of those seemingly unbreakable records. I mean, once upon a time, I think we all thought, well, hey, Flair with 16 world titles, that's unbreakable.

And then we take a look at, you know, John Cena passing it. And, you know, Randy Orton's not too far behind. Charlotte Flair's not too far behind. So there's still an opportunity for others to get there. And of course, I guess a lot of people who count everything factually say, well, technically Flair had 21. Either way, it just felt like he was so far out in front of everyone. It became the unbreakable record, but it now has been broken.

The Undertaker streak of what? it would have been 23 and 0 24 and 0 I don't I don't think anybody would ever come close to breaking that it's just mathematically impossible you know and I don't know what the financials were for that was it Rosamania 30 you say yep 2014 what the financials were the state of the business was did did Vince feel from a revenue point of view that he need he needed to put the streak as stakes so to speak and really focus on it and then deliver on it as he did with Brock. Maybe.

Let me give me some context on that. This was, that was the first WrestleMania of the WWB network. So he had, he had gone away from pay-per-view and now he's trying to push subscriptions. Was hedging his bet. Yes. He was hedging his bet.

So it was a financially driven decision. And look, you can criticize that all you want, but this is a business. It's about making money. It's about making the maximum amount of money that you can't. It was a judgment call. So, probably strategically, it made a great deal of sense in the short term because of what you just brought up,

launching the WWE network, needing to make a big bang and getting a really establishing your new network as big as you can right out of the shoot. I get that, that's strategy. And it was probably a smart one. But from a fan perspective, in a long-term perspective, I think it would have been more. long-term value in Mark Callis's or Undertaker's undefeated streak than the short-term gain that may or may not have been realized because the stakes were actually the unbeaten streak. Eric, do you remember that, uh, do you remember how many WrestleMania matches the Undertaker lost? No.

Let me help you. It was two. Do you want to guess who the other person who beat the Undertaker was? Had to be Hulk. Roman Raines. Roman rains. Roman Raines beat him in a terrible main event that everybody has swept under the rug. But I think it's interesting because all these years later,

we're still talking about Bill Goldberg ending the street. But almost no one mentions that, oh, yeah, he lost a few years later again to Roman rains. Like that doesn't come up at all. I think that's anti-Roman. I'm just illustrating the point that the first loss meant a ton. The second loss is almost forgettable, right? Yep. That's a fact.

So fascinating. Something I think about when I'm hanging out with my friends enjoying a little into cloud. I mean, let me just say this time of year, everybody loves to say, we should do one more summer thing. You know what?

My nervous system would like to unsubscribe. At some point, we have to admit that another ice coffee and a positive attitude are not going to carry this entire operation. Luckily, into cloud exists. Into cloud is fully league. online cannabis. It's a dispensary for gummies, exotic flour, premium pre-rolls, zero sugar THC sodas, energy gummies, and extra strength sleep gummies. That's my wife's favorite.

Everything is federally legal THC, slab tested, and shipped discreetly to your door because the plans are still planning. The inbox is still inboxing, and somehow everyone wants to circle back emotionally and professionally. I got to tell you, I'm a big believer in this product. I absolutely love it. I know you will too. I mentioned that my wife loves the extra strength sleep gummies. I like the energy gummies. Man, it makes me feel more creative. It, uh, quiet sounds some of the noise in my head. And it gives me some energy to be creative. I really, really enjoy it. I think you will too. And there's something for everybody. You heard me rattling off, whether you're looking for those gummies or premium pre rolls or exotic flour or the THC

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support our show. And as always, enjoy responsibly. and a huge thanks to Enda Cloud for helping everybody laugh a little more, stress a little less, and survive the return to reality. Hey, let's talk a little bit about Roman rains. We started up a bit of a controversy

a couple of weeks ago after SummerSlam and Paul Heyman was on with The Undertaker and they talked a little bit about the two eras of Roman, the big dog era that fans weren't buying and the tribal chief version that fans seemingly can't get enough of. As a reminder, Haman and Roman came together in August of 2020,

and Haman now says that part of the process involved making Roman live inside the character when he was away from TV. Heyman told the undertaker that he would sometimes just call, quote unquote, Joe, the real life Roman reigns, and ask him about his day. And they'd talk on the phone for a half hour or longer. And he wasn't trying to talk to Joe. He wanted to talk to the tribal chief. He wanted to get the real life Joe,

comfortable talking as the tribal chief, Roman Reigns. So during a regular ordinary conversation, just making small chat, small talk, he would ask Roman, what did the tribal chief eat for breakfast? What did the tribal, did the tribal chief take his kids to school? Did he pick his kids up from school? He wanted Joe to stop talking as Roman Reigns or as Joe, and start talking and carrying himself as the tribal. chief. The Undertaker said he could notice a difference. He recently saw him and spent some time at Fanatics

Fest and he said he carried himself in a way that reminded him of what people used to say about the Undertaker. Hey man, this guy really lives his gimmick. He's in that all the time. And he thinks that Paul Heyman deserves some credit for instilling this in Joe in Hawaii, living the gimmick. Boy, that that tends to work in wrestling. What do you make of this report from Paul Heyman and the Indytertaker? It's fascinating, isn't it? Living the gimmick is method acting.

Yes. You know, in sports entertainment, it's living your gimmick 24-7 brother, Hulk Hogan, Rick Flair, so cold Steve Austin. I throw Steve Austin in that category,

much like Rick Flair, because it's very little difference between their real personalities and their TV characters, except for that on TV, they turn up the volume a little bit. But essentially, you know, Rick Flair,

he's he's Rickler in the ring he's Rickler out of the ring right 24-7 I'm not sure he knows who Richard Fleer even was at this point not is was um that's how deep Rick Fleer is into being Rick Flair and I say that as it with respect that's not a flaw I think when you when you commit to your character to the extent that Flair has or Hogan did all Cogan was the same way you know he and I would be sitting in his house, you know, having a beer or working out or, you know, sitting on a deck watching boats go by or whatever and decide to go into town to grab some sushi or something. And he's Hulk, he's Terry Belaya. We're just shooting shit. He's a different guy.

We get into the car by the time we get into wherever we're going. And now the public is there. He's Hulk Hogan. That's the commitment. And it's just, it became who Hulk was, like it has become who Rick Flair is. Rick Claire has become the character Musil called Good, I think Stone Cold Steve Austin again, because the character

of Stone Cold Steve Austin is really just Steve Williams, but the volume turned up and accentuated. Those are the guy, Undertaker, that live the gimmick. They're method actors. In the world of entertainment, acting, you know, film, television, whatever,

you know, talking about somebody's approach to their method or becoming the character and you know, immersing yourself in that character for long periods of times. You know, Heath Ledger evidently, I mean, I don't want to butcher this story, but there's some speculation that Heath Ledger went into such a profound kind of method acting experience that it screwed him up. So it's interesting how the world of entertainment refers and respects method acting,

but in wrestling it's living your gimmick, brother. You're a mark for yourself. You know, you hear that a lot. So I respect people that live the gimmick because what they're really doing is committing to the character. And what Paul did was really introduced Joe to an indirect way of becoming a method actor, teaching him, helping him learn how to become a character

in a next level kind of way. To 90% of the talent out there, your character is what you wear to the ring, or your music, or your ring entrance in general, right? And once you get into the ring, there's very, not a lot that distinguishes you from anybody else, really, unless you've got really cool finishes or a move set, whatever. But when you take that to the next level,

and you become your character, that's when shit gets real, ironically. Well, the money gets real. Let's put it that way. The success gets real because you've transcended what everybody else does, which is going out and portraying what you think a wrestler should be, which is 95% of the people that do it for a living, even people that do it well, make a lot of money. Very few of them really get into the character.

And I think it was very cool, Paul, to talk about that. And his way of getting Joe, because if you talk to a wrestler, say, I want to sit you down with a method acting coach, you may get a fake kind of, oh, wow, that's great, let's do that. But there's a resistance to it. But if you can kind of teach somebody to do it without calling it method acting and get them thinking about it and understanding and beginning to feel what happens, when they go out in front of people once they actually start becoming the character

instead of portraying one, magic happens. You know, we've heard Bruce say for years, hey, so-and-so was playing wrestler. They weren't being the character. They were playing a wrestler. And then you would, you know, you take a look at other people and other promotions, like MJF, for instance. If you meet MJF, like in real life or in an arena, he's an asshole either way. Now, is Maxwell Jacob Friedman a bad person or is he in character?

That's for you to decide. But when people say, oh, he is by far and away the most hated heel in AEW. It's no wonder that, I mean, being in character works, living the gimmick works, believability, credibility. That's what we're talking about, right? It is. And so many, I'm going to be careful how I say this because otherwise I'll get accused of hating on people but

it's in MJF is a really good top I'm glad you brought MJF MJF up perfect example of a guy who lives his character who's a method actor I don't know if he knows it or not if he thinks about it in that context but in terms of immersing himself in that character and more importantly

and I think this is where people really screw up nowadays is acknowledging that the audience is smart. We all know there's anybody out there that thinks this stuff is real you know lesser hearts. That's all I can say. But MJF lives it.

And ironically, he's probably got more real, honest, heel heat, not Pavlov's dog heat. Pavlov's dog heat is when the audience understands that their role is to boo the guy that's supposedly or been designated as, is the bad guy in this match. That's most of the heels that are out there.

People that call themselves heels. And this has been something I've talked about, about WWE for years. They still don't have real heat. They've got Pavlov's dog heat and then get a lot of it. They can manipulate it. They can create it for television. It sounds good. It looks good.

Financially, it's working. But it's not that next level heat. It's different heat. It's money. just not as much as it can be. And MJF is one of the few people out there today that is really living his character. And it obviously works.

You know, I mean, he's a very divisive character. I think he's great. And I think he's a very intelligent young man. He's very gifted. He's still got some things to learn. But he's, what, 12, 14? I don't even know how old he is. He's not very old.

He's got a long ways to go. He's just a young man. That once he gets a little bit of seasoning and just, you know, the maturity that only reps in time can bring, I think he's got a very bright future because he's committed to the character. He lives it. He does. How many people do you? I'm not going to name names here because I don't want the heat.

But so many wrestlers portray, pretend to be a wrestler. on TV for a living, but then they completely expose who they really are in social media. Yeah, all the time. What kind of a knucklehead are you? Do you think that you are so over that the audience is just going to accept the fact that you play a good guy on or a heel on on television? But are you really like puppies? You know, I just hang out. You know, I like to go to the park and watch kids play.

You know, no, no, no, do that. So many people expose them. And it's always the younger, less experienced people that really don't have a clue. They're really good in the ring technically, but they don't have any real understanding of how the business works. They just think they do. You know, what's interesting you say that is I find myself wondering why WWE does this sometimes. Like even the conversation we're talking about now, like it was not lost on me that when we gave a critique of Roman, boy, just a, an avalanche of responses came our way because everybody seems united in the fact that Roman

is the top guy, that he is the top of the heap. He is the tip of the spear for WWE. I get all that. But if that's the case, aren't you kind of exposing him a little bit when you have his humble advocate go on a podcast with The Undertaker and say, oh yeah, I had to teach him how to talk like that. I had to, I mean, to me, it feels like, don't get me wrong. I love hearing the story. It's fucking huge and it's fantastic. I love learning as an insatiable, you know, wrestling fan who just can't get enough of the info and information. That's fantastic. But I wonder, well, is it better served if we would have heard that after he was retired versus when he's still the top guy right now? Because when you're saying that the guys can expose themselves on

social media, well, in this particular case, it's the WWE and fanatics exposing it together. And I understand that, you know, this is a for-profit enterprise and it's usually successful, but is it to their own detriment? I think it is. You know, and interestingly enough, there was a clip on social media. I think I saw it about 4.30 this morning when I first woke up. Bobby Heenan talking about this very thing in an interview. And by peeling the curtain back to the extent now that we're talking about method acting and performers like the entertain. I think in the long run when you take the mystery away,

when you take the aura away, because the aura is now really just a manifestation of a process, you lose some of it. Now, there's got to be a mystique. And in order for a mystique, there's got to be a little mystery, you know? And when you take all of the mystery out, of it, you're killing curiosity.

I just, I don't think it's a good idea in the long run. I disagree with it. And it's not that you can't do it occasionally, but with a high-profile character like Undertaker and somebody with the platform of Paul Heyman and the credibility to kind of peel the curtain back at that level, I don't think, again, short term, yeah, maybe there's a reason short term long term it's just one more one more mystery one more aspect of the business that makes it work i mean one of the reasons wrestling has always worked well let me take that back one of the things that has always made me excited about wrestling is the opportunity to

either create or watch a storyline that is right on the line in terms of being so believable it might be and scripted. I mean, you probably are too young to remember this, but it's like Memorex used to be. Oh, yeah. It used to a television. It's a lot or is it Memorex? Yeah. Is it Live or is it Memorex?

When you can find those, is it Live or is it Memorex opportunities in a storyline? And I used to, here's how it used to play out in my head as a kid. You know, I'm eight years old, 10 years old. And my buddies and I would be talking about wrestling are watching it together. It's like even at 10 or 11, 8 or 10 or 10 years old, watching on CKLW, big time wrestling, Channel 9 with my buddy, Tony Pasoirelli, lived down the street. And it was a year or so older than me.

He flunked first grade once, I guess, something like that. Anyway, we're watching wrestling. And, of course, we both knew at that age. wrestling was fake. These two guys really hate each other. Even at 10 years old, we knew before everybody smarted it up. If you've ever been in a fist fight, even at 10 years old, you kind of know some things are not real, right? Just like you did watching as a kid on television when you'd watch a bar fight in a Western scene.

You knew those guys weren't really each other where they had with chairs. But the illusion allowed you to buy into it. And that illusion, that mystery, the part that you can't really quite figure out is what makes you interested in it. And I think with wrestling, whenever you can find the inner's heart, it's very difficult. And sometimes we're talking about moments. Sometimes that Memorex moment is very brief. It can be a little thing that feels so real that it leads to something else. It's even bigger.

but when you can isolate opportunities to create those moments where elements of a story or a scene in some cases have the audience, even if it's subconsciously going, yeah, that wasn't supposed to. These two guys are pissed. Wow. I wonder if, you know, Triple H is going to come out and try to put a stop. I mean, these guys are really good. It's not supposed to happen. And you see it.

Who did I just see the other day do it? Somebody confronted CM Punk. CM Punk was in an interview in a backstage setting. And so I don't remember the- Great smaller at an in-st-y. Yeah, came up and started shit. I mean, it looked like the beginning of a bar fight. It's what I've seen that a million times, right?

That type of situation where it looks like it's going to go off. It didn't, which is what makes it perfect because it creates anticipation. You don't want to deliver on a moment. There's no way to go with it. But if you can make it look like these two guys are ready, it's like the old gunfight scene in Western movies. The best part of those movies were when the sheriff would be on one end of town, a bad guy be the other town,

and they'd start walking towards each other with the music, and the camera would cut to the hand, and it's on the gun, and it cut back and forth. And it's the tension. They didn't make those gun fights last for a long time, and only because it's the anticipation. and the tension that allows that scene to deliver that emotional moment. It's what we talked about in the beginning of the show, creating moments.

In order to the moment to mean anything, it's got to be tied to emotion, which is the story, all that stuff we've already talked about. And what in that scene that I saw with Waller and Punk this past week, that's exactly what it felt like to me. Now, that's the beginning, potentially, probably of a story, but they did it in a very believable way. They didn't do it in the ring. I mean,

the one that just tires me the fuck out is the interview interrupt, the promo interrupt, where I'm standing out there and I'm got a promo and my nemesis, we hear his music off the side, and he comes down and he interrupts my promo. That is so contrived

that the minute I see that developing, I'm looking for something else to do. We've seen that a million times, it's not real. There's nothing about it that feels real. And so I love some of the thing. W.W.E. is doing things. I see enough of what they're doing on social media to lead me to believe that they're really

beginning to understand it. And not understand it. See, you know, you've got to give them a lot more credit than that. But understand how to use social media effectively to build a story and to build the character. I think they've done a phenomenal job of that. I do question some of the things, though, like this conversation with Haman and Undertaker saying,

oh, we, we helped him become the tribal chief. I wish we wouldn't have seen that until maybe he was finished. But I also think, I don't know if you saw any of fanatics fest, but the same weekend that Undertaker was referencing seeing the real Joe Anawai carry himself as the tribal chief is the same weekend they had Roman Raines try to shoot jump shot three-pointers

and very few went in. And they had Cody Rhodes try to kick extra points and field goals. And I don't think any went in. And then they said, well, let's have Tom Brady and Justin Bieber and Cody Rhodes all hit the boxing machine and see who punches hardest. It's like, man, we're putting our guys in a position to feel less than. I just, I don't know that. I don't get that at all.

Yeah, it doesn't make any sense to me. that you're taking little nicks, not big nicks, but you're putting little things and dents in the character that are completely unnecessary. And again, I go to for what? What is the benefit? It just always comes down to cost and benefit, risk, reward, however you want to characterize it.

And I don't see the benefit in that. Is it so entertaining that people will feel more compelled to tune in to WWE to see what the, offering happens to be? Or is it just, yeah, these guys sure aren't nearly what I thought they were. You're probably going to give more of that. You mean coat of roads can't even kick a football? Wow.

Like 12-year-old can. You know, I don't know. That's the way I felt. I wondered, hey, how did this happen? And I know at times we say that WWE can be too careful and too measured and they need to take more risk, but I almost feel like they should be more protective of their assets here. When I see stuff like that happen, I ask myself, man, would they,

have had Hulk Hogan trying to hit home runs and striking out in 1985 when they have had stolen cold Steve Austin in the year 2000 trying to kick extra points it's like I don't know so it makes me wonder is fanatics coming forth with an offer and saying hey we'd like for them to participate and there is some sort of fulfillment this is a deliverable that was promised in a contract to fanatic sort of thing but are you doing that and yes it does look great on a P&L to get this bump because you had, you know, these guys participate. But long term, it feels like it could be less than. Like, I don't want to know if Hulk Hogan can hit a fastball.

I don't need to know if Stone Cole can kick an extra point. I never cared if the rock could hit a three-fourner. Like, and you exposing that they can't make them feel less than to me. I don't know. Maybe I'm in. No, it does in a big way. And I think, you know, if you look at Vince, McMahon and his approach to the business.

And regardless of how anybody feels about Vince McMahon, there has been nobody that has had a greater impact on the industry than Vince McMahon slash Hulk Hogan in the early days. But Vince is peculiar as Vince was about some aspects of, and he was very, there were little things that just, you know, calling it pro wrestling, for example, you know, at one point in time, would set his hair on fire. I mean, he was just really weird about certain things, and sometimes those things felt very, very small. But one thing that he was very aware of is, you know, creating the perception. And I think Vince used to say it. In fact, I criticized him for back in the late 90s. I think my line was, no, Vince, perception is not reality. Reality is reality is reality.

And your reality is I'm kicking your ass. I think was my line, actually. Because Vince would say things. I heard him say things in interviews where, you know, you've got to create the perception. these larger than life characters. Well, when you send, you know, Cody Rhodes out to kick a football and he's not able to do that or you put a baseball bat in Roman Rain's hands and not able to hit a ball, how is that creating a larger than life character?

What is it due to the perception? It's undermining it. There's just no other way to look at that. Now the question becomes, from a business perspective, is there a reason? And, you know, did fanatics come to them? And this happens. This happens with sponsors. You want to maintain your relationship.

Yeah. You're constantly looking for new ways to integrate and to leverage that relationship. So both parties to it can grow and be successful. And sometimes those ideas come to the company, you know, through the marketing department at, we'll call it, ABC company, comes to WWE because they have a sponsorship relationship. But it's a significant one, by the way. It's not an average deal. It's a big, big sponsorship deal or licensing deal in this case. And they've got a list of things that they'd like to try.

Well, your team sits down with them marketing and they kind of weave through it. And then before you know it, it ends up in somebody that has to make a decision about it. I doubt that that's Triple H, Paula Beck. I'm sure he has a voice and gets a vote, but I don't think it's the final vote. I think that probably comes somewhere else. Don't know the structure in WWW right now. Don't even want to guess. But my assumption would be that somebody is supporting a decision like we're talking here in terms of kicking footballs and swinging at baseballs and shit like that.

Somebody is making that decision and green lighting that who really doesn't understand the wrestling business. It may understand the shit ton about marketing and promotion and licensing. But if they don't understand the basics of the wrestling business, it can be detrimental. Since we're on the topic, something you and I haven't spoken about before, but I know he's my buddy, so everybody thinks that I just carry water. But I think the whole Cody Rhodes podcast is a mistake. Like, in my opinion, he's having guests on and he's interviewing them like they're the interesting person, but we're also positioning him to be the top guy.

I know there was a Stone Cold Steve Austin podcast. He didn't do it while he was wrestling at WrestleMania. he didn't do it while he was the champ he did it once he was retired and it feels like no disrespect but cody roads interviewing santino morello that should be the other way around santino needs a podcast and then every now and again we're graced with the presence of cody roads but when you just have him do a regular podcast and he's having conversations with guys it feels like i don't know it makes him less special because he's here we're familiar we're comfortable and he is good at it.

He is relatable. He is likable. But are we over exposing him and by him interviewing guys? I don't know. It feels like he should be the special attraction. He's not the guy who does the interviewing. He's the guy who is interviewed, right? No, you're absolutely right.

I would have not said it as you brought it, not brought it up. But I can't stand seeing Cody Rhodes in that role. For the very reason you just described, is it good at? Yeah. I have nothing but respect and affection. I like Cody. Just, I do.

And I hate to see him doing something that I think dulls the lustre of who he is and what he's achieved. And I think him being in that role is you cannot put it any better than you did. He should be on the other end of that interview and made a star. I mean, again, that was the Vince, you know, Vince was just, constantly cognizant of making stars. And this is the opposite of making a star. This broader approach of overexposure, peeling back the curtain even more than it already has. You could probably point to what's the reality show name?

Unreal. Unreal. You know, all of these things, you know, in aggregate are just making these. these superstars people we we don't pay money to go see people we pay money to go see stars and we're not making them stars we're making them versatile we're probably getting a return on the investment but we're not really building a star are we I mean that's the thing I think Cody was already a star when he sat in the chair so it's like at this point all you can do is chip away at him so when you start to see folks

folks online who have Cody fatigue and they're ready for something new or they're, you know, they're, they're tired of it or whatever. Well, he's on every event. He's on every piece of media and then Wheatley Vocker comes along and offers a bunch of cash and they're like, well, they want Cody. They'll pay a lot of money for him. Let's do it. Yeah, you made the Wheatley sale and yes, it made some money for fanatics and probably did good. There's no doubt, but would Cody have made more money and he not done it? And I'm not saying that was up to Cody. He was a company man.

I'm sure they asked him to do it. He did it. And he does a great job at it. But I'm just saying, man, they wouldn't have done a Stone Cold podcast in 1999. That just wouldn't have happened. I mean, maybe I'm wrong. So Cole wouldn't have done it.

Paul Cogan wouldn't have done it. It's just interesting. Rick Flair probably would have because Rick likes to talk. But even, you know, Rick would have realized that too much exposure is not a good thing. I used to say this all the time. There's two ways of killing. off a talent, not give them an opportunity to let the audience forget about them because they haven't been on TV in six months, AEW, or overexposed them.

They both have the same outcome. Under exposure, overexposure, overexposure equals a dead character. And like I said, Vince was, you know, this was a master at knowing when to say when. It's like plants with water. You can underwater, you can overwater. Either way, too much. You know, and it's not just you said, hey, whoever's making some of these decisions, they're not wrestling people. I think a lot of wrestling people have convinced themselves that the wrestling business has changed.

Because we know Triple H knows wrestling. But how many times have we seen Triple H post on his social where he's walking a guy through his ring entrance at a big show? Like, hey, and then you'll go here and then you'll go there as opposed to, oh my God, the superstar is here. like when we saw that for Michael Jackson at the Super Bowl way back we on and we all still remember it. What we never saw was someone walking him through a pre-show like in a practice or a rehearsal. Like you'll go here and then you'll go there. It diminishes the star value in my opinion. So maybe Eric and I are old men yelling at clouds.

What do you think? Let us know in the comments. And everybody's going to have a comment this time of year because football is back, Eric. And something big is coming. On September 2nd, Draft King's game day arrives. And don't forget, Draft Kings is now live in all 50 states. One app, every sport, all 50 states.

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Trade to get predictions dollars that expire in one year. $50 in rewards issued every seven days via click to claim for 21 days. One non-withdrawable reward redeemable. Terms at DKNG.com slash offer. Limited time offer nationwide based on sports book predictions and free to play sports contest availability varies by state. Let's talk a little bit about some other headlines from this past week, Eric, where in particular there was a little line that got everybody stirred up.

It was on Monday Night Raw, Paul Heyman was there, and Bronbreaker challenged Obafemi to fight right then and there. This is all in character, of course, and Paul Heyman steps in and explains that WWE wouldn't give that match away without promoting it first. He's critical of bra and for not knowing the way the business works. This is all character worker, of course. But Heyman says, WWE is a publicly traded company and the biggest wrestling promotion in the world.

It doesn't only answer to the live audience and viewers at home. It also answers to shareholders. And he added that when two main event wrestlers are standing in the ring, you don't book an impromptu match. And of course, some fans are interpreting this. a shot at AEW's habit of preventing major matches on weekly TV. But of course, Heyman never mentioned AEW, but RICOchet, who works for AEW,

jumped on to Twitter and let those Twitter fingers fly. He says, we're the greatest wrestling company in the world. No, we don't answer to shareholders. We answer to our fans because they're the ones who deserve it. Hey, this is great positioning by Rickashay. I think if you're number two and you see number one make a shot like this and you can make it fan-based. Hey, we don't care about the shareholders.

We care about the fans. I like that sort of thing. But this feels like Heyman is getting the exact reaction he hoped for, in my opinion. A ricochet's a goof. I mean, the guy is,

he probably says more stupid shit per tweet than anybody I know, other than maybe Dave Maltz. He doesn't on purpose. Yeah, whatever. It doesn't do him or the company works for any good because everybody knows it's a joke. You know, to go out and he's the greatest wrestling company in the world,

by what data point? I mean, continually saying that kind of thing, just it makes everybody involved, including the company, lose more and more credibility. There's no reason. There's no upside to it. There's no upside to it.

it's just whatever it's a bad idea well i really wanted to bring this up to you because i wanted your take because you you kind of got a reputation back in the day for quote unquote giving away pay-per-view matches on free tv and of course i think people forget oh yeah you were a television company that was kind of the idea is to generate as big a television rating as you can and this is an old-school way of thinking here. Like for WWE, and I know this is all in character, and it's all story, it's all Paul Heyman on screen. But yeah, the model has changed.

Like there is no pay-per-view model anymore. Yes, you could, you know, drop subscriptions for someone who paid a contract, but that's, that it almost implies that they don't have a contract with Netflix. So Netflix is going to want these big matches. so is ESPN. It is what it is. You do want to promote things ahead of time, but this is character work,

just as a reminder. But the thing I come back to is, I think that that was part of the charm of Nitro. We've recently been covering what some of the Nitro lineups looked like 30 years ago. We're going to do that a little later in today's show too. But you've got so many matches in here that are going to feel like,

well, that could have been a pay-per-view match in that era. Meanwhile, conversely, WWE was not doing that. No disrespect, but we had Sal Sincere and the Goon and Freddie Joe Floyd and T.O. Hopper. These guys were making routine appearances on Monday Night Raw.

I do think that part of the offering for AEW and WWE should be big time main events. I mean, just this past Friday, we had Kevin Owens and CN Punk in the main event of Smackdown. That is a pay-per-view

main event. They did it on free TV. People are getting caught up here. You made this normal and par for course. And every wrestling company has followed suit since. So while there is an on-screen debate about it, what I look at and say is, boy, there's another thing that we've got to tip the cap to Eric for. Thank you. And it's one of the reasons why, you know, I consistently and after years go up on this tangent of trying to make people understand just how important the format change for Nitro was to the entire freaking industry, especially WWE. They benefited more than anybody. They're still benefiting from what they learned from Nitro. And what they learned from Nitro is the reason why they're successful in today's new business

model, because today's new business model is driven the exact same way that Turner was, not like WWF was what I was competing against them, but it was the same essential business model of Turner, meaning it's a television property. 77% of the revenues to WWE, I'm guessing I don't know the stats, 70 maybe more, 75% is due to broadcast rights, media rights. It's a television business.

It's just that everybody else has now finally caught up to it. But it started with Nitro. And yes, took a lot of criticism. Didn't bother me then. It makes me laugh now because I was right. And it's one of the reasons why I say consistently that Nitro and the revolutionary, I guess, format that we created for Nitro is the only reason WW exists today to the extent that it does. And probably AW, even though they're, you know, a distant number two, probably the same thing. that format was so important.

And there's ways, like the Kevin Owen punk thing, there are ways you can have that match. Intro, Sammy, Zane, oh, now you've got all kinds of other opportunities. You can have that match. You can showcase that feud. You can elevate that. You can advance that feud, right, without giving away the farm. It's just, it's a different way of thinking.

And if you think the way, people used to think or the way that some people think online because I just don't know. Yeah, it looks like a bad idea, but it's a great idea, especially in light of the fact that 75% or 75% of the revenue comes from television. How much money outside of broadcast rights is AEW make? No, they're not making any on their video game. That's for sure. I don't know what their licensing and merchandising looks, but I've never seen.

an AEW action figure in any of the toy sections I've been to recently for my grandson. I do look for things like that because I'm just curious. It's all television. So why would you not figure out a way to creatively use the talents you have that can draw an audience to help make your pay-per-view, premium live event, whatever you want to call it, more exciting? It's very possible. Yeah, we did it first in Nitro, and it's, it's so, such an important fact to where we are today. I wish more people would take the time to understand the business and the context and the history in terms of some of these types of issues,

because I think it would make them appreciate the business more and get less caught up on, you know, stars. Like the kind of you give away. To answer your question about action figures, your buddy Jeremy with JazzWares, he had that license. for several years and I don't think they're in business anymore with AW. It could be wrong, but it's been a while. I think Jeremy, I'm going to see Jeremy this week. Oh, he's an American freestyle guy. I forgot about that.

Yeah, we're going to be talking later on in the week about some other stuff we're doing. But yeah, I'm going to ask, I forgot all about that. Jazz Wears had a EW. So I'll ask about it. Hey, I also wanted to mention, there was another talking point that feels sort of Eric Bischoff influenced, and I don't even know that you keep up with this. But recently, especially, it's, it's been the case for years, but recently AEW has begun to do overruns that are pretty significant.

And I know you became kind of famous for this. As a reminder, a lot of shows on TBS back in the day used to start five minutes after the hour. So if you wanted to watch, you know, wrestling on TV on a Saturday night, it was 605. And if you wanted to watch a Braves game, it might be 105. that sort of thing. So it was definitely a calling card for Turner stations. But once upon a time,

people started to look for advantages in this Monday night war. So you would see, Monday Night Raw would start at 7.57. They're going to start three minutes early. And then Eric would go over. And fans, we're going to hang with it as long as the action, blah, blah, blah.

Wait a minute. Monday Night Raw never went early when we were going to have dead. They did. Never. We did. We would. don't start, but I don't recall WWE. And correct me if I'm wrong, please, I don't mean to interrupt you.

But when you, when you would go two minutes early, they'd go three minutes early. And I remember that. Yeah, it's crazy. If I'm honest with you, I forgot about it too. And very recently, I was watching an old episode of superstars. I won't give the, the, the YouTube channel because it probably shouldn't exist. But I've discovered something that almost runs like a feed and they'll every now and again just post like old superstars from 1996.

Not every now and again, I mean, but they're doing it in order. So I've enjoyed sort of watching the rise of Stone Cold Steve Austin on Superstar. But I hear on commentary, Eric, they're pushing 6.57 or 757. And it's like, oh, I forgot all about that. But yeah. I didn't know that they counterpunch. We started doing it first. And evidently they did counterpunch.

The overrun was, we were the first ones to do that. And what I said like, you know, we invented a cure for, you know, an incurable disease. It's just that because we're a wrestling company that's owned by a television network and the network was really vested in our success, I could pick up the phone and say, hey, can I go over six minutes? It was very easy for me to do, whereas with another network, it wouldn't be. If we weren't owned by the network, we probably wouldn't have been able to pull that off. That's why I was surprised that WWE could do it, because it upsets the advertising schedule. You know, jump starting a show three, four minutes early is not as simple as well. We're just going to

start early. It affects, you know, the show before it, because it compacts or impacts the available time to run commercials. So it's a little more difficult than it seems like it should be. But yeah, we did it first, then they evidently countered it with starts. And it was easy for me because I just called Brad said, okay, I need 10. They went six. I need 10. That was easy part. And the overrun was at my discretion because it worked so well. you know, Brad was thrilled whenever I would call and say we're going over because, you know, what's coming up at 11 o'clock at night that's going to do better than the 6 million people watching, you know, Monday Nitro for an extra five minutes.

The answer is nothing. So it was very easy to go over, but it was also very effective. The reason it was effective, one of the reasons it was effective is because, again, I keep talking about format. People are probably sick of hearing it, but it allowed me to time. my main event match and the action in that match in such a way that I would hold more than likely 100% of my quarter hour audience going into 11 o'clock, for example. So from 1045 to 11, TV is measured, your rating is measured in quarter hour, or at least it was,

I don't know what they do today, in quarter hour increments every 15 minutes. It take an average of the minute by minute, averages together, boom, that's your 15 minute, quarter hour or a quarter hour rate but what i knew i could go six minutes over three minutes whatever the number was it enabled me to to position that match in the heat in it in a way that very unlikely anybody's going to dump out at 1155 or 1154 to see what's going on over on raw and that's the game i was playing is timing you know giving finishes away those Those are all tactical things that fit into a much broader strategy. But the overruns was a very important part of it because it was the main event.

We almost always had a cliff, we often had a cliffhanger, which was for the reason of our success. And being able to combine a cliffhanger in that overrun in a way that makes everything feel so authentic, as we talked about earlier, spontaneous. us. Just gentlemen, I'm Tony Schia. We're going to stick with this no matter what happens. And what are they're not going to pull us off the air. We're staying all that excitement, enthusiasm about what is happening in the ring and why it's so important that we're not going to stick to our regularly scheduled programming schedule.

Um, legal ability is it live or is it member. Is this supposed to happen or not? It's a magic. I loved it too, but I want to get your take on it because I'm going to put you in an uncomfortable position here. What else? You're going to have to decide. Are you with AEW or are you with Brian Alvarez?

Because recently Brian Alvarez became really critical of this. And I do think he brings up a valid point. And I think it's worth discussing. But since you're the innovator, if you will, of the overrun, I'm going to ask you. Brian contends that why are you having your most important angle, your most money drawing angle? And of course, he's talking about the headline. of what is the equivalent of AEW WrestleMania. It's AEW All-In and Wembley Stadium.

The main event will be Kenny Omega, the AEW World Champion, defending against Will Osprey, the challenger in his home country. The overarching story is Will has just returned from neck surgery, and now his goal is to become the first British-born world champion to win the title on British soil. It's a cool story. It is his dream match to perhaps beat Kenny Omega to become the A.m.m. a W champ and he's from London so it checks a lot of boxes. However, they're going 15 and 20 minutes

over and Alvarez is critical of this because he believes, and I think you may be on to something, that there are a lot of people who can't consume wrestling the way they used to during the Monday Night War, so they're not sitting there watching it live. They're setting their DVRs up. but the DVRs are missing often the entire main event and certainly the main event angle because if the television systems have been told ahead of time that the show is going to go two hours and it goes two hours and 20 minutes you just miss the last 20 minutes I'll admit that was a blind spot for me and something I hadn't really considered but then I thought back and I thought well shit they did that on nitro all the time back then

in fairness DVRs aren't as readily available as they were back then. I know technically TiVo existed, but how many people had a TiVo versus now everybody with YouTube TV or whatever? Like we're all just accustomed to hit a button and we're not going to miss it. I wanted to get your take on that, Eric. Do you have a, are you with AEW or are you with Brian Alvarez? What do you think?

I, if it were me and I had to make a choice, I would probably go overrun. I wouldn't go 15 freaking minutes. That's not smart. An overrun, unless it's an absolute finish, an overrun should be three, four minutes, five minutes. It should be the last couple minutes of something really important,

so important that we can't look away. We can't cut away because this is too important. You can do that and it'll feel real and believable and spontaneous for three or four minutes. When you're talking about another quarter hour, eh, that doesn't work. It won't work.

It won't work as well as it could work. Let's put it better. I would use the overrun. I wouldn't worry about the TiVo, devo, whatever, DVR. I wouldn't worry about it. You're not going to make every, you're not going to make 100% of the audience happy.

So go with what works. best. And spontaneity, cliffhanger kind of approach, something that advances the story, holds your audience. I would go with that and suffer whatever consequences I had on the Thibow side. I think Brian's right. He's just not right enough. Well, you'll be right as rain with blue chew gold. When you take a blue chew, get ready to meet your new wiener. He's confident. He walks into the room with his chin up. He makes eye contact, really scary stuff. Not really, but the stuff is crazy.

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And we thank Blue Chew for sponsoring today's pod and the bedroom. So, Eric, I'm excited for us to talk a little bit about 30 years ago in Nitro history, but before we do, I'd be remiss if I didn't bring up a headline that you pointed out a few moments ago. Insider Gaming Executive Mike Straw published a brief video Thursday where he revealed through his sources that AEW had to take what he called a massive loss of at least $30 million from the development of their video game, a fight forever. He cited the long delays and deadlines being missed and he said that it was supposed to be released in 2022, but instead it came out in the summer of 2023. Quote, when games take that long, they take more to make.

He also said that sales were approximately half of the initial expectations and there's no agreement between AEW and the developer of the game, Yukes for anything further. Of course, AEW has said they're interested in revisiting video games down the line, but hearing that there's a $30 million loss, boy, this feels like maybe we got the cart before. for the horse a little bit. We don't know what's true and what's not true,

but it does feel like a misstep in the early days of AEW. What do you make of this report? A $30 million loss, like, I don't remember ever seeing a report like this before. It feels like usually it's a company comes in and pays a wrestling company a huge amount of dough. I don't pretend to know the backside of the gaming industry or how this works. Maybe they were going to own it versus licensing it.

I'm not sure. But how do you reconcile this? Eric, because I imagine like THQ and other people who would have approached WCW, they probably brought a check, right? I actually had some, and I don't remember enough of the conversation that I had a couple years ago with a gaming company that was working with AEW on this game. I was working on a project that may have involved a video game. So I was just doing some digging and some research.

not necessarily looking into AEW. I didn't really care about that. But I needed a better understanding. And based on the nature of what I was trying to do in the game I was talking about, it would have been in the same target audience. So somehow or another, I got connected through a third party with this company. And vaguely remember the conversation that had, and it was more, I didn't ask any questions.

I was just, I was just unreceiving, I'm listening to it. There were a lot of people from AEW that were, you know, I love video games. I don't know. I'm not going to drop names because I could be wrong and it's not fair to do that. But several high profile names and an obnoxious referee that were very involved in the development of the game. And we're, let's just say, they've never, they didn't really understand. Yeah, just because you're good at playing it doesn't know it mean you're good at developing. Let's, I'll leave it at that.

And that was probably the root cause of a lot of the delays and the overruns. And then, you know, relationships tend to fray under those conditions. And I think that's probably what happened. I don't know 30 million is right. It has to be really working hard at screwing shit up, spend $30 million before they finish. But whatever. I don't know. I don't know.

I have a hard time believing that that number is real. Can't be. I don't know. I don't know. I mean, movies, you know, you've got budgets. You know, I think you open the door if you're going to do anything serious at about 90 to 120 million, you know, unless it's, you know, straight to tubi or something like that, then the budgets are less. But if you're swinging for a fence, you know, Netflix deal or, or, you know, kind of your word or something high profile, major release in theaters. And I don't think the price of entry is probably closer to 120 million.

So can he could you run up a tab, a 30 million developing a video game? It's quite possible. You can, you can burn some cash playing, playing in a world you don't even understand. You can go through a lot of money that way. By the way,

as a reminder, because I know Eric's throwing around some big numbers, we're going to have some smart ass in the comments. He says, well, actually the budget for so-and-so movie was, here's what they don't tell you whenever they release what a budget is.

There's the cost of making the film and then there's the cost of marketing the film. And you can pretty much take your cost and then double it because your marketing budget is going to be nearly equal what your production budget was. So when Eric says a $120 million movie, it was really a $60 million movie that required $60 million in marketing. You're 120 all in. And obviously there's, you know, second life's when it's going to land on streaming and if there's any merch opportunities and a brief run on pay-per-view and

If it has the famous Hollywood back end. There you go. Where, where they are. Well, I think to use a wrestling term, Sean Waltman once walked into J.R.'s office and said, your pencil fucking me.

And I think that that's the Hollywood back end. There's a lot of pencil fucking going around. Oh, that's. Yeah. Let's talk about the NWO 30 years ago this week, specifically Monday Nitro from August 19th, 1996. Of all places, you were in Huntsville, Alabama. No, I was not there. I had just gotten back

into wrestling less than a month prior. I didn't even know that they were coming to Huntsville. But the first match was Jim Duggan versus VK Wall Street. It's a rematch from the clash of the champions. But really, it's more about developing a storyline around Nick Patrick. Duggan is going to try to use his trademark tape fists and Nick Patrick's going to take the tape away and a little beat in the story of Nick Patrick. And then Duggan's going to call out Hulk Hogan with me and Gene Oakland here. And what's interesting in this promo and Eric,

I want to take a pause and let you tell us about this, he doesn't just talk to Hulk. Duggan is addressing Hogan as Terry. Now this is significant because this is the first time that we've seen something like this on WCW programming. and it really, I think, speaks to the realism that you're trying to bring to this story and this angle. Duggan's basically wanting to know why Terry has turned his back on everybody. Randy Savage is going to appear, and he's going to say that he and Duggan have been thinking along the same lines.

Savage has unfinished business with Hogan, but he also blames the giant for failing to stop Hogan at Hogwild. and that's going to set up Savage and Giant for later in the show. So on the surface, VK Wall Street and Jim Duggan probably doesn't get you all that excited 30 years later, but advances the Nick Patrick story, and boy, does it majorly advance the NWO. I think, and I realize it may have been controversial at the time, and I guess that's really what I want you to discuss. When Duggan refers to Hogan as Terry, it's like a jolt to the system to me as a wrestling fan. that's why it worked, right?

It's one of those little things that you can do that create that, is it live or is it Memorex moment? It's a little moment. It's not a big moment. It's not a finish. It's not anything anybody's going to put in a record book. But it further allows the viewer to feel comfortable suspending their disbelief. It makes them feel better.

It doesn't make it feel stupid or embarrass them, right? because it's so good and you're enjoying it put your guard down you lean in you don't care anymore that's that's a magic moment yeah people might not remember it but it's such a because it's such a small thing but it lends itself to the broader goals of making the NW story feel legitimate like this is really one group of people taking over trying to take over from another group which is you know, in essence of war, you know,

and trying to create the reality of that war, uh, with a bunch of little nuggets. And this is one of them. It's also, you know, not forgotten or lost that when Hogan won the WCW, the title the first time way back in 94,

Jim Duggan is right there celebrating with him immediately. And then if you go back, I mean, and we all remember Jim Duggan used to be on Hulk Hogan's Survivor Series teams. Like for as long as we can, remember seeing these two guys in the same company. They've been friends.

So to have him come out and use the quote unquote shoot name, brother, when we know that they've been associated on camera for more than 10 years at this point, I think it's interesting. And I also love that Randy Savage comes out. Another guy who we know is Hogan adjacent. He's obviously had problems with Hogan. And now they're sort of talking together. Like, we often didn't see Savage Duggan run together.

we saw Hogan and Dougan run together, but we're bringing all the baby faces together and getting on the same page, establishing some unity, some us versus them. I think that's important for the first segment on the show, don't you? Yeah,

this is the premise of this is really, you know, the enemy of my enemy is my friend or something like that. Yeah. This is a big first step. I was looking at that way you were talking. I'm looking at, you know,

Doug and who, you know, pretty much looks like Dougham just with shorts on instead of jeans. But, you know, to create that reality moment, you know, or attempt to, to get the audience

to lean in, put the guard down, and kind of get sucked into the story. It's got to be a little bit authentic and believable. And here comes Randy Savage dressed like a carnival clock. You know, there's a little bit of a contrast going on there. But it works here because Randy now

really being all like this. Randy's a pretty serious, he's still in character, but it's more of a conversation and less of a performance. Next up, one of the things we loved about Nitro, Chris Binwa versus Bobby Eaton. I absolutely love this. Benoit is going to win with a diving headbutt. The bigger story, though, is we're trying to keep the four horsemen strong because they're about to be a big part of this WCW versus the NWO story. and then we hear from Sting and Lex Lugar.

They're going to address war games with Mean Gene. There's obvious questions hanging over WCW. Who is going to fight the NWO? WCW had traditionally been divided into factions and rivalries. We know we're talking about, the good guys and the bad guys. Sting and Lugar have fought the horsemen countless times, but now something bigger has happened. The NWO isn't simply just another wrestling faction.

It's being presented as a threat to WCWB itself. And already we're seeing things sort of come together here. Next up is Scott Norton and Disco Inferno. Classic mismatch, if you will, from this era. Mostly a showcase to keep Norton still looking dangerous. And then how about this for a clinic? Dean Malenko and Lord Stephen Regal.

This is the wrestling heavy portion of the show. Dean Malenko works a fantastic style. We all know how fun Regal is to watch. Malenko gets the victory. And I think this is what makes Nitro so fun in this era. You know, we do have things like the throwback classic characters like Jim Duggan. We've got the bright and colorful Randy Savage and,

and Sting. We've got the physiques of Alex Lugar. We got old school wrestling and Bobby Eaton. We got kickhouse modern styles and Chris Binwa and Dean Malinko. And then we've even got a little British style with Regal. I mean, you've had some really good matches and characters on this program. and we're not even halfway through the thing.

It is funny. And it was, I'm not saying this to try to put myself over. I know it sounds that way, but I'm really not. In some ways I look back at this stuff and didn't even realize why I was doing some of the things I was doing.

At least I didn't think through them to the extent I can now with more experience and seeing the results of things. That was, from day one, with Nitro especially, I wanted more diversity. When I say diversity, I mean different styles, different cultures. Obviously, the ethnicities that come with a lot of those cultures, bringing in the Luciador, bringing in the Japanese, to the extent that I did, because I wanted WCW to be

perceived as a global brand, not a U.S. domestic product. Because my dreams were bigger than just being the number one wrestling show in the United States. I was. I achieved that goal for a long time. But, well, a brief period of time in reality. But that really wasn't my goal. My goal was to distinguish myself because WWE, they were doing more internationally. They were, they were more advanced than we were business-wise. They've been doing it longer, better overseas. WCW was just beginning to try to figure out. I didn't even have a European promoter until probably 94, right? Up to that point, they were doing it in-house and they sucked that in. So we had a lot, we had a lot of work to do internationally, but to me it started with build a global brand if you

want a global audience. That's why I wanted the diversity. But I didn't just want it in a traditional way of ethnicity and even you know, for your country, I wanted to see different styles. The Japanese style was so much different than the American style, which is so much different than the Lucha style, which is so much different than the Japanese style. And by presenting the diversity of styles

along with all the other things that go with it, that was the goal. And I think we started something pretty good in that regard. Is it, again, it was more than anything. It was, wasn't I had the goal to save the world culturally or anything like that. It was like, I don't get the biggest study as possible. You know, bring them as many people as you can into the kitchen or into the restaurant. And you do that by offering variety.

It's really what it boiled out to. Well, it's going to boil down to you saving some money with our friends at Rocket Money. Listen, let's be real. We all know by now that Rocket Money can help you find those unwanted subscriptions and start saving money. But the real question is, what are you going to do with that money that you saved this next year? You're going to take the family down to Cancun. You're going to do some remodeling. What exactly is your financial goal? And wouldn't it be nice if you could reach them faster. That's what Rocket Money is here to help you do. They track your subscriptions. They have

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faster. Go join RocketMoney.com slash 83 weeks. That's rocketmoney.com slash 83 weeks. So, of course, it's Nitro in 1996. The end of W.O is going to continue to run these. The following announcement has been paid for. These feel like little takeovers throughout the show. And it's an important distinction. WCW is not presenting to you. Hey, here are the new bad guys. No, it's more like, hey, these guys don't belong here, but somehow they've managed to take control of our television show. Meanwhile, back in WCW, we've got the nasty boys and the public enemy. We got Brian Nobs and Jerry Sags in there with Rocco Rock and Johnny.

grunge. The nasty boys win about four and a half minutes. But the big question is, where are the nasty boys? Because we know that Brian Knob's has been friends with Hulk Hogan for a long time. So are they with him? Or are they with WCW? And this is interesting because this starts to establish the paranoia element of the show. Dougan wants to know what's going on with Hulk and Mean Gene wants to know, hey, nasty boys, are y'all with Hulk? The paranoia element of are they with us? Are they against us? Who ultimately cracks that open mentally for you guys in your think tank? Is that a Kevin Sullivan thing that love the paranoia piece or something? Well, perhaps. Here's where that approach really started from though. It occurred to me because of

the success of who's the third man. Now this is going to sound really simple, right? Which hopefully people will understand it and believe it. I realize that getting the audience to ask the question has more value than getting the audience to make a statement. Example. I hate Eric Bishop. Okay. Versus what do you think I think about Eric Bishop?

of. That's a conversation. That's open-ended, right? So I was trying to think of as many different ways using that bad example in our narrative to create more questions than statements. I love WCW. I hate WCW. I like this match. I don't like this match. I like this about the story. I don't like this about the story. That was the rhythm, right? I wanted to break up the rhythm so that it got people asking each other. That's engagement when you can get people not just to make a statement, but to ask a question. That's how you start engagement. So without sounding like I'm trying to make this really complicated, I just realized that who's the third man, which I stumbled into. I mean, it was pretty simple. It's not like I sat down, spent four days

coming up with the right solution. You know, it was an obvious way to do this. Surprises always have worked. And I put a lot of emphasis on creating those surprises in the nitro format early on in particular. It's crucial early on. But this was just another way to build on that, given the story. And then again, was so, I'm glad you brought up, I forgot all about it. But it's such an important thing is getting the audience to engage in a different way. I like it. I hate it.

That's good. I liked it. Why did you like it? Well, I don't like it because this. Well, I like to because that that's engagement. Now you're taking engagement, you know, to the outer rings of the universe, so to speak, and what's possible. Do you watch White Lotus on HBO?

No. I have. I take it back a couple years ago, almost. Very cool. Yeah, it was like, uh, it becomes like a who done it. Yeah. We know that someone died, but we don't know who did it and why. And so you wind up watching each.

every episode looking for clues trying to figure it out. I bring this up because that's as close of an analogy as I can make to wrestling back then. The conversation that was happening at my school, I'm in high school when this is going on, is hey, who's going to be next? Who's joining next? And the idea that we didn't know who was next is not totally different than what they lean into with White Lotus, which is, hey, who do you think did it? I only bring that up because out of all the shows that I watch on a pretty regular basis that are, you know, really popular sort of mainstream shows, water cooler talk where the most part has gone away, especially the ones where they just load all the episodes at once

on a streaming service. But the way HBO hosts a White Lotus makes you wait a week for another one, it allowed me and my friends during the course of that next week, hey, did you see this week's episode. Now, we didn't all watch at the exact same time, but everyone had a theory on who it was and why they thought it was them. We became so invested in that show White Lotus. It makes me think of the NWO in this era. Who's going to be next and why? And it also did such a fantastic job of setting up Sting. And the, the, uh, the story we told, with, you know, the fake sting, like the real sting, you know,

and having, you know, Lex Lugar and all Sting's friends starting to doubt Sting, and it seemed recognizing that his closest friends were starting to doubt him and then the feeling of a betrayal that Sting felt and also, you know, Lex Lugar and Mark Bagwell and everybody else felt. So, you know, you had betrayal and all kinds of great shit going on. It's like politics, almost. But, yeah, all of that was because of learning how to get the audience to ask questions, leading them into questions instead of leading them into statements.

We're going to be talking about that a lot in the next coming weeks. As a reminder, Hog Wild's in the rearview mirror. The next show is war games. And the whole fake thing thing happens right before war games. And Crow happens on the other side of war games. So stay tuned to boys and girls, September and October. are going to be a lot of fun here on 83 weeks. But let's get back to Nitro from Huntsville.

We've got Chavo Guerrero Jr. And he actually gets an upset win over DDP. DDP at this point has been moving up the ladder. Chabo's still establishing himself, but four and a half minutes in, Chavo gets the win. Of course, we're building towards Chavo's program with, uh, with DDP. We're hoping that that continues for fall brawl. The tag titles are on the line for Harlem Heat and the American males.

that's Marcus Alexander Bagwell and Scotty Riggs. Harlem Heat are going to retain here. Now we get maybe the most important segment of the show. Sting and Lex Lugar are supposed to be fighting Rick Flair and Arn Anderson. That's the advertised matchup. Sting and Lugar against Flair and Arne. And this is a major match on any Clash of the Champions or any WCW program. But Sting basically says,

hey, we've already done this. We've been fighting each other for years. And beating each other up isn't going to solve WCW's real problem. So Sting calls out the other horsemen, specifically Chris Benoit and Steve McMichael. And now this is interesting because we've got all four horsemen and Sting and Lex Lugar. So if this breaks out like it often would, hey, it's four on two in a hurry. But that's not what this is about. Sting is telling the horsemen, hey, we don't like each other. other and we probably never will.

But there's something we all have in common. We are WCW. Sting points out that War Games was practically built around the Four Horsemen, but Sting and Lugar have something Benoit and Mongo don't. War Games experience. Therefore, Sting proposes that Benoit and McMichael surrender their positions. So the WCW team inside of War Games, instead of it being horsemen versus NWO,

Sting wants it to be Sting, Lex Lugar, Flair, and Arne Anderson against the NWO. Now this is a big deal for a long time WCW viewer. Sting and Flair have been mortal enemies for what feels like 10 years at this point. Arn Anderson has spent 10 years beating up Sting and Lugar has even been a part of the horseman and battled the horseman, but now he's going to team with the horseman, all in the sake of WCW versus the NWO.

And it's worth noting. It's not Lugar who's suggesting this. It's not Flair or Arne. It's Sting who's making the suggestion. Let's all get together and work together. This is great stuff here, Eric. Yeah,

I wish I knew who came up with this particular story or this element of the story because it's really, really good. It's, you know, breaking third wall or fourth wall, whatever the frick is saying is,

it's again, another one of those little things that you don't expect to happen since you didn't expect it to happen, therefore it must be kind of real. I mean, that's the magic of it. That's the approach to the magic. It's sometimes it's just do little, Scott Hall coming down beside,

sort of coming up the ramp. Perfect example. Whoa, fuck, that's not supposed to happen. What's he doing? What? In the middle of a mat? What? Let me call it.

Conrad. You're watching this shit? You know, that's how you create something that works. And sometimes it's not as big as Scott Hall. That's obvious coming down to the, you know, the crowd. That's an obvious thing. But sometimes just little things, just little things like that that make it. Jim Duggan, we talked about before, referred to Hawke's Terry.

Nobody's ever seen that before. Therefore, oh, this is real. even if it's subconscious, right? If you could get them just feel that way subconsciously, you've won. You're printing money when you do that. It's such a fun episode of Nitro. You know,

we eventually have Arne Anderson respond and say, hey, I want to make sure you guys staying in Lex Lugar know what you're signing up for. Four games is brutal. It's violent. It's serious. But these are grown men being asked to give up their spots.

Benoit says, I'll accept the decision of Flair and Arne Anderson, so it's official. It's going to be Rick Flair, Arn Anderson, Sting, and Lex Lugar representing team WCW against the New World Order at Paul Brawl. But there's one problem. We know who the third man is, but who is the fourth man?

That's intentional. The NWO has promised another member. WCW at this point does not know who it is, and we're going to go off the air not knowing who it is. But before we go off the air, let's remember our first segment. Randy Savage is upset that the giant lost the WCW world title to Hulk Cogan at Hogwild. That's our main event.

So we've got the giant coming out accompanied by Jimmy Hart. As a reminder, this is the era where you're seeing the giant come to the ring with very little pomp and circumstance. A man that big needs very little added to his presentation. Here he comes. But Savage isn't really interested in wrestling. He's furious. and he is obsessed with the NWO and specifically Hulk Hogan. The match eventually breaks down.

The giant is credited with the win by DQ, but that's not really the story. Savage is obsessed with Hulk Hogan. And of course, that's going to become a big piece of what's going on with WCW as he defends WCW against Hulk Hogan. And we know Halloween Havocke isn't too terribly far away. And as you may have guessed,

as a reminder, yes, it is going to be Hogan. and Savage. But this is an interesting episode because you start to see some seeds planted. You get a little bit of realism from Jim Duggan calling Hulk Hogan Terry. You see Randy Savage trying to rally WCW. You also see Sting trying to mend fences with the evil four horsemen that have beat him up and, you know, backstabbed him and double crossed him countless times. he's trying to bring everyone together for team WCW. I think this is interesting stuff.

You're not, I can't help but feel at a different time we would have just seen. Now here's the fourth member this week and then here's the fifth member that week. But you're planning seeds and you have some discipline and patience with your storytelling. And boy, it's going to have, I still think it's probably the best storyline in wrestling history. In some ways, yeah, it was. I think the way it's playing out is recovering this

for the last couple weeks, months. It's the, the arc is what I'm impressed with because I didn't realize to the extent I should have, how important the arc was. It was fun, right? I wasn't thinking arc. I was thinking, you know, what do I have to do next week to get the story,

to get it hotter, which is the same thing, but I didn't have a long-term plan for that. I was just kind of feeling it week by week, month by month. But we did a pretty good job, even though we staggered into the theory of an arc. We staggered into it blindly, so to speak, but we were still pretty good at sticking to that arc. And that's the part that really stands out to me as we kind of reflect on this stuff. It's just the little things that kept it going and kept it growing. more importantly, it can't be growing for quite a while. You look back in time and it's easy to me to see the theme of this show is,

hey, the NWO has been running roughshod, WCW needs to get their stuff together, they need to unite against the NWO, and it's all building towards war games. It was clearly deliberate and intentional. And even the positioning of sting is fantastic here. And boy, are they going to bubble over into a beautiful story in the coming weeks. Stay tuned. We'll be talking about adding the four. fourth member next week. That's when it's going to happen on the 26th of 1996 in the month of

August. Quick pop quiz, Eric. Do you remember who number four was? No. You know. Well, let me give me your reminder. You love his voice. Hmm. I need another hit. He worked for Bill Watts and then Vince McMahon. Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, Ted DiBiase. Come on now. Ted DiBiase is going to join the NWO. Next week on the program, we'll talk about how it was revealed. We'll be advancing the storyline a little closer to war games. And we're not too far away from fake sting, which I still think is one of the more slept on stories in WCW history.

I know everybody remembers fake crow sting, but the original incarnation, I think it's up there with the evil twin referee idea that they did with Hogan and Andre way back when. We'll talk about it in the coming weeks. We're also going to be taking your questions next week here on. the program. We'll be doing and ask Eric anything. And if you've got a question for Eric, just find us over on social media at 83 weeks. We'll be pulling your questions and you can listen in and hear those next week. Eric, I'm so glad you guys had a fantastic time in Cleveland.

I can't believe you're going to Russia and then two weeks later. You're back in Miami. Like, are you doing almost WCW level travel these days? It feels like you've got to be. almost i mean wcw we at one point you know we had two shows a week one a monday one on thursday so yeah that was a lot of flying and of course you know a pay-per-view every month in there and then oh yeah everyone's all over to europe so i'm probably not putting on quite as many miles but i am definitely as busy as i have ever been and i'm so grateful for it i'm having a best You know, my grandfather used to say there's no stress like money stress, son. Well, are you feeling that right now?

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So find out how easy it is to finally get rid of your credit card debt once and for all, get a much lower monthly payment and even skip your next two house payments. Let's find out how much money you can save for free at save withconrad.com. And MLS number 1281698 and 203902. Equal housing lender. Savewithconrad.com. Eric, I kind of forgot something. It happened just last night as we're recording.

and or this was past weekend as we're recording. Unbelievably, a Hogan belt sold for $414,000. This was Heritage Auctions. This was the belt that they say was photographed backstage for a photo shoot the day of WrestleMania 2. So in 1986 era, Ring used Polk Hogan, WWF World Heavyweight Championship with the buyer's premium $414,800, the most expensive wrestling belt sale ever.

Of course, earlier this year, we saw Hogan's WrestleMania One belt sell for more than a million with the buyer's premium. Are you shocked by this, Eric? It had a $500,000 reserve, which I'll admit I thought was ambitious. I had a conversation with a friend of ours at WWE, and we both kind of thought it might be like $250,000. 275 boy will we wrong 414,800 what do you think about Eric I'm not surprised you know as I talked to Jeremy Petowar more and more because Jeremy he's so passionate about collecting he told me a quick story about a friend that's our brought home to to Jeremy too and you know Jeremy of course is a positive so what are you what are your

interests in the conversation and I thought, what do you collect? You know, if you want a window into someone's soul from Jeremy's point of view, ask them what they collect. So the world is so big and it's, I mean, it's, it's mind-boggling to me how big it has become. But I think the passion to hold onto things in our digital evolution, when everything is digital and portable,

it's kind of cool to own things that were a part of history or part of your history. As things continue to evolve from a technological point of view, that desire to connect to real things will probably continue to increase. So in one way, I'm shocked, but another way it's kind of natural. What would you think would be the most expensive or valuable wrestling collectible out there?

Is it Hogan's WrestleMania one boots? Is it something else? Does anything jump off the page as even being on the list or in the stratosphere? Well, and I'm not being a smart ass, but I was thinking to myself, I wonder, you know, if there was a belt associated with the Brock, you know, breaking the streak as time will tell who really thinks what is more valuable, right? You don't know what the market will bring, so to speak. But it'll be interesting to see, it would be interesting to see if that belt,

were available, but other than something like that, I don't know what you could associate with Steve Austin, because that would definitely be something that if there was a belt or if there was a moment, a tangible thing to collect, associated specifically with a Steve Austin kind of peak of Stone Cold moment, obviously that would be up there. But other than that, I think Hogan is probably going to always

capture the spot because he was first. only one person gets to plant the flag first. Everybody else came in second no matter what. So I think Hoggut will probably always hold that spot. It's going to be interesting to see. I assume that there will be lots more stuff come out of the woodwork now that we're seeing these new records being set. Is there anything that that you kept from your career, Eric, or that you wish that you would have kept something from WCW, WW, WW, AWE, AWA, any of that, that you think, man, that would have been pretty cool.

Honestly, no. I just, I don't know why. I just have no inclination to hang on mentos or collect. Just never happen. I don't know why that is. I should. And sometimes I wish I felt differently than I do

because I could have collected some pretty cool shit. But I don't. It's just never been my thing. Well, let us know in the comments. What do you guys think is the ultimate wrestling collectible? Is it a belt? Is it a robe? Is it a sign?

Is it something else? There's lots of cool wrestling memorabilia out there. What would be your dream acquisition? Let us know in the comments below. Eric, that'll do it for us this week at 83 weeks. Hope you guys hit that subscribe button, turn on the notifications bell, and tell a friend. And we'll see you next week right here on 83 weeks with Eric fish off.