83 Weeks with Eric Bischoff - Strictly Business #13: Tom Deschenes on The Bloodline

Episode Date: February 1, 2023

This week on Strictly Business, Eric Bischoff is joined by Tom Deschenes as they talk all about WHY The Bloodline storyline is so good. Special thanks to this week's sponsor! Jimmy's Seafood-Free 2-day nationwide shipping on orders over $125 (excluding steamed crabs and fresh items) use the promo code: WRESTLEBIZ FOLLOW ALL OF OUR SOCIAL MEDIA at https://83weekslinks.com/ Stop throwing your money on rent! Get into a house with NO MONEY DOWN and roughly the same monthly payment at SaveWithConrad.com Get early, ad-free access to more than a dozen of your favorite wrestling podcasts, starting at just $9 over on AdFreeShows.com. That's less than 15 cents an episode each month! You can also listen to them directly through Apple Podcasts or your other regular podcast apps! AdFreeShows.com also has thousands of hours worth of bonus content including popular series like Title Chase, Eric Fires Back, Conversations with Conrad, Mike Chioda's Mailbag and many more! Plus, live, interactive virtual chats with your favorite podcasts hosts and wrestling legends. All that and much more! Sign up today at AdFreeShows.com! Get all of your Strictly Business merchandise at https://boxofgimmicks.com/collections/83-weeks Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

February 5th marks the 35th anniversary of one of the most memorable angles in wrestling history, an angle that had Hulk Hogan seen double. There's two out of them! Yes, the famous twin referee angle with brothers Earl and Dave Hepner that took place on the inaugural episode of Main Event, with Andre the Giant pinning WWF champion Hulk Hogan. It would also mark Earl Hepner's WWF debut. On February 5th, at 8 p.m. Eastern, 35 years to the day,

Ad-free shows members will get the opportunity to watch back this historic moment live alongside Earl Hepner in our latest premium watch-along event. All $29-level members and hire are invited, and Top Guy members will get to come up and ask Earl questions. Reserve your seat by signing up today at ad-freeshows.com. Hello, everybody, and thanks for joining us here at Strictly Business. As you may notice, I'm flying solo today. Well, for a few moments anyway, because my partner, John Alba, I think he told me yesterday he was going to Tampa on business, but I found out a little bird told me that there's a kickoff tour for Bruce Springsteen going on in Tampa, which is where coincidentally Mr. Elba is headed. So, by the way, I hope that's the case. I'd do it too.

So without any further ado, I want to talk to a guy that I know knows all about story. If you've been following social media at all, I think you've probably seen a lot of the same. comments that I have, that being that the Roman Raines Bloodline, Samizan storyline has been one of the best ones people have seen, I don't know, in a long, long time. So to break it down, because admittedly, I haven't seen it all the way through, but a guy that I know that has and can break down a story better than anybody I know, Mr. Tom DeShane, Tom, come on in. Hey, all right. Thank you so much, Eric. I appreciate the invitation. It's always a pleasure to be here on Strictly Business. Always a pleasure to be with you and always a pleasure to be talking

about professional wrestling and storytelling, my two passions in life. So, you know, I mentioned briefly a little bit of a disclaimer. I have not been following that story closely. I did watch it yesterday. I watched that match. I didn't watch the entire Royal Omba, but I did watch that match. I really dug the finish. But I'd like to hear from you, because I know you followed that story, why you think fans are reacting to it as strongly and positively as they are. Well, I'm going to give you a simple answer first and then a little bit more of a complicated answer. The simple answer is all we've ever wanted is just good, compelling television. And I think that there are a lot of people who have been watching professional wrestling,

especially since the end of the Monday Night Wars, that have kind of been missing that, especially from the WWE product. You know, it's something that maybe after ECW and WCW are no more, There really wasn't much competition anymore. And then the storylines maybe weren't mattering as much as some of the skits and vignettes and different things that we were seeing at at WWE booking. So the fact that we've been blessed with this great long-term story, this is what we've been wanting for so long, especially longtime fans,

folks who remember what the storylines were like in the late 80s and the golden era, you know, the NWA and Crockett and WWF, but then also fans from the attitude era who remember what, it was like when you had the NWO storyline on one television show and then you flip the channel and you've got Austin v. McMahon on the other channel. This is what we've been yearning for for so long and this is what we've gotten. And, you know, from a more complicated sort of answer to sort of break it down a little bit too, what we're seeing here is real long-term storytelling that's ticking all the boxes of classic storytelling. We have compelling characters. We have twists and

turns. We have logical, episodic, you know, development of characters and of the story, great progression. And there have been so many moments following this story that have left me surprised. And I think that, too, is one of the things that we've really been missing from WWE programming, especially over the last several years and decades. So we can break all this stuff down and get into it. But I'm super excited to be here with you because I know you're the man behind some of the greatest storylines in wrestling history. So just being able to break this down with you, you can go back and forth a little bit on what makes a compelling character,

what makes for a compelling storyline, and really why this one in particular has just caught fire. And Tom, one of the things I want to really zero in on before we get too far into the story, because you cover some really interesting points that sometimes I think when wrestling fans hear long-term storytelling, to them that means, you shoot an angle in January, it kind of floats around, it doesn't really go anywhere, it's active, and then there's some kind of a blowoff months down the road. And that, you know, oftentimes with wrestling fans, at least that I get social media responses

from, well, that's a long-term story. What you just described in the attributes that you assigned to the most. recent long-term story in WWE, that being the bloodline, is some really critical elements along the way, you know, compelling characters. I think we can all pretty much agree what a compelling character is. It's subjective, obviously, but there's other elements that aren't, you know, the one thing that you said was logical, progressive, episodic, I think you said it in one sentence, storylines. And to me, that implies a lot more structure and discipline than throwing things up against the wall and just maintaining a story. Talk about the elements, if you can, if I'm clear,

that go into the progression of a storyline into an arc. Yeah. Well, let's go all the way thousands of years ago to Aristotle and his poetics. For folks who, you know, subscribe to ad-free shows, Eric's been kind enough to have me on to break down some other storylines in the past. And recently, my tag team partner, Dominic DeAngelo and I, we have some monthly specials that we upload to ad-free shows where we do deep dives. It's called In-depth. And you can hear us go on for three to four hours breaking down step-by-step the storylines of the mega-powers, which in my mind is still the number one greatest story of all time in pro wrestling. But we also break down the NWO storyline. We break down classic sibling sibling rivalries in pro wrestling.

Lots of great breakdowns there. And one of the things that I keep going back to is this isn't anything new. I mean, Aristotle discovered this all the way back in ancient Greece when he sort of laid out the first work of literary criticism, trying to explain to not only audience members, but also to aspiring playwrights and poets, what goes into making a good story? And there were some key tenets that he put in there.

You know, the fact that the poet or author should strive to create fictive works that are that are memetic, okay? That means imitative of real life. And I think that's one of the things that certainly resonated with this bloodline storyline. I think we've all been bullied. Some of us may have been the bullies in the past. And that storyline that, it's a super simple one that's been told with Roman, with his family members, the sort of mental manipulation that's going on, the feelings from Jay Uso, that

maybe he's, you know, not the man he once thought he was, you know, being really sort of stripped down of all of his morals and his beliefs and everything, you know, some really, really compelling storylines there that are very memetic. And even Sammy's role, Sammy trying to get the attention of the head of the table. Sammy, the guy who was just in the jackass match at WrestleMania 38 and was sort of the laughing stock of the industry, sort of a mid card to lower card sort of talent at the time trying to get in with the head of the table. You know, we've all been in those situations where we've tried to hitch our star or wagon to a star.

And so just some of those really simple elements are memetic. But also Aristotle said, you know, you have to have stories that have dramatic, you know, sort of logical parapetia. And parapetia are simply twists and turns, ups and downs, reversals of fate within a story, or as we in pro wrestling would call them, swerves. And I think that's been one of the most sort of rewarding things about this storyline that we've been getting all the way back since the summer of 2020. So we'll talk a little bit more about that in just a minute. But when we talk about long-term storytelling, it is now January of 2023.

The story is just getting better and better week after week. And yet this is something that started almost two and a half years ago now, which is just crazy. But the most important element, according to Aristotle, was that a story must progress in a case. consistent and unified way. And what's fascinating is when we go all the way back to the summer of 2020 and follow this story through, the same characters have been in it throughout, you know, whether it's Kevin Owens, whether it's the, you know, the bloodline and the Uso's and, you know, Paul Heyman, whether it's Sammy Zane. And what's fascinating is they've been brushing up against one another over these last several years and now getting to this incredible point where all the pieces

are on the chest board, just in the right place to make this story as compelling as possible and to get us all the edges of our seats. But we wouldn't be on the edges of our seats if this story hadn't been told logically, episodically, and making sense from episode to episode, week over week, month over month, year over year. Again, just that element alone is something that I've certainly missed in modern professional wrestling. That's something that I don't think we've seen very logical booking, especially from the WWE for many, many years. So all you've got to do is follow Aristotle's poetics, follow those checkmarks, and you will write a compelling story.

And that's what we're seeing being delivered every week on WWE programming when it relates to the bloodline. And interesting that you, and what was the Aristotle's word for swerves? Peripatia, logical parapitia. Yes. It sounds like Italian food, parapetia. I have an order of perpetua. Vino on the side, please.

Oh, man, I haven't had dinner tonight. You're getting me hungry now, Eric. That's just a delicious meal. But the reason I want to talk about that is swerves are something that we talk, we hear often, you know, about sometimes derisively, you know, when someone like a Vince Rousseau relies too heavily on perpitae or swerves. But my point really is, swerves or parapetia in wrestling can be are a very valuable tool but you can't use that tool

without the logic and the consistency and the progression otherwise it's a swerve for the sake of a swerve right as opposed to a swerve that's part of a much more complex structure that's in each one of those elements within that structure support each other and you can't have a standalone swerve just for the sake of it without all the other things around it. Agreed? Absolutely. And I think one of the reasons, the sort of implicit relationship that happens when you pick up a book and open the cover and start reading the first pages or when you start watching the first few minutes of a television show is as a viewer, you are trusting the storyteller that they're going to take you on a fun ride and that you're going to be satisfied and you're going to be told one heck of the story and you're almost going to lose your. in all the excitement and the adventure. You lose that trust very quickly if you're seeing that

the story isn't progressing logically. And if it's just swerve, swerve, you know, squirrel over here, this over there, and then boom, this happens. And then that happens. If it's just a bunch of noise, that isn't compelling. And you almost lose trust in the storyteller's ability to tell you a compelling storyline that will build over time. So yeah, that's why Aristotle didn't just say parapetia. He said logical parapetia. So that is incredibly important. And you're right on the money, Eric. And when we look back at the NWO storyline, when we look back at the mega powers exploding,

when you look back at Austin versus McMahon and some of these great stories, I'd say probably the last great story that we had was maybe a little over 10 years ago with The Undertaker and Sean Michaels and their story that was told over a number of years that really culminated at WrestleMania 26. But you look back at any of those storylines, and those are storylines that progress over the course of many months and sometimes years, and it was step by step, it kept growing, it kept building. But it also kept you on the edge of your seat. And I think that's one of the important things, the sort of chef's kiss for me this past Saturday night at the Royal Rumble was not necessarily what happened between Sammy and Roman. We knew that was coming.

We anticipated that that was going to be coming and that maybe we were going to get to see it that night. And that's why after such a compelling long-term story, it got the reaction that it did when it happened because we all knew this was coming and they delivered on it perfectly. But the thing that really excited me was Jay Uso's reaction. I was expecting that the Uso's were going to just jump in line and that Jay was going to start beating down Sammy, just like Jimmy, just like Solo. just like Roman, and yet the fact that he sort of collapsed into the corner and started crying and just left the ring as a viewer who has trusted this storyline now for many years, I was just like, oh, that's good. Where is this going? What's going to happen now? You know, is Jimmy going to, you know, choose his brother over his cousin? Is Jimmy and going to join? and are they going to align with Sammy now as Solo and Roman, you know, and Paul try to salvage

what's left? Who knows what's happening? That's what I love about this. So it's one of those things where we know what's going to happen, but at the same time they surprise you here and there with some things that you didn't even see coming. But again, this is logical. For folks who go back and look at main event Jay Uso back in the, you know, the late 2020, early 2021, you know, you know, sort of storylines of the W.W.E. was telling Jay didn't want anything to do with his scumbag cousin Roman Rains. Jay wanted to be on his own. Jay wanted to be out there fighting for the gold. And it wasn't until Roman started to play mind games with Jay that he really stripped him of all his dignity and almost beat him down like a dog, not just physically in the ring twice at two

different pay-per-view main events, but also mentally. I mean, this is sort of, you know, Game of throne sort of stuff when you think of Ramsey Bolton and how he ended up manipulating Theon Greyjoy, who became Rieke, who was so sort of manipulated mentally and just destroyed that he became a puppet. I mean, this goes back to Shakespeare. We always talk about it. You know, that's what my degree is in. You know, what's been so compelling here as well is this idea of sort of gray characters. You know, we don't quite know in this storyline who is good and who is bad and who we should be rooting for and who we shouldn't be rooting for.

I think we can all safely say now that Roman Raines is bad. He is a bad guy. And I think what makes him such a good bad guy is, you know, kind of like Rick Flair. Everyone said Rick Flair was such a great heel because he could beat you without needing to cheat, but he was the dirtiest player in the game

and was going to cheat anyway. You know, so he was one of those sort of cowardly guys that could beat you no matter what, but still he was going to cheat to win just because he could and just because he liked to and just because he was good at him. it. With Roman, Roman can beat you, but he's not only going to beat you physically, he's going to beat you down mentally and torment you. And that is called back to like Edmund and King Lear or Iago

in Othello, these really manipulative characters who get inside the minds of their, well, I was going to say their enemies, but also their allies, and really almost serve as puppet masters to get people to do their bidding. So I mean, this is, this is Shakespearean sort of stuff that we're seeing on television here. Because there is no better seafood in the world than Jimmy's famous. I mean, f-and-famous seafood. And the beauty is you can go to jimmiesfamous seafood.com. Put in your order.

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And we thank Jimmy's famous seafood for sponsoring strictly business every single week. You know what's kind of cool as you're going through that and you're talking about these big stories. You're going back to the megapowers and, you know, NWO and Mr. McMahon and Austin. And, you know, those big beats,

the span of time between those memorable stories is, you know, they only happen every once, six, eight, ten years. And we know them off the top of the top. of our head. Yeah. How many stories have been presented on television in prime time every week for the last 30 years on television? But those are the ones that stand out. And oh, coincidentally, they had a well-developed, logical, progressive storyline and with sufficient swerves along the way to keep you on the edge of your seat. It's like when you hit, and funny, you know,

I came up with storyline, anticipation, you know, reality, surprise, and action. My acronym Sarsa. This is a different acronym, but when a story, well, I used to say this all the time, whenever I would do a mental check, not having your education, right, each stretch, I was learning as I went,

but I just knew that if I could check all five of those boxes, I'm printing money for the next three years. Right. four of those out of the five boxes was going to be pretty good, but I'd only give it about 90 days. Three out of five was a C story. Two out of five, I'd have a re-write because it's a waste of time. And in your case, I think, as you're laying out those elements

and you're pointing out the fact that those major stories that are part of, they're iconic stories, but so many other stories that didn't have those qualities have just gone through the sewage pipe and off they go to Neverland. Nobody remembers them. And it occurred to me as you're laying all that out and you're describing, you know, what makes a great story and how it's based with Aristotle and Shakespeare is that I don't think fans, including me, of any form of entertainment, but especially wrestling, including wrestling, we don't know what's missing when it's not there.

we just know it's not good or it's not compelling enough to keep us coming back it's subconscious it's like going and you listen to a high school band practicing you know a rock band a bunch of kids get together you know playing in a garage and they're hitting all the notes the notes are there but it's just not that good and how is it that you can hit notes but it still isn't that good and that's That's where I think when you have a well-crafted discipline story, you don't know that it's a well-crafted discipline story. You just know you dig it. Right. Exactly. Exactly. This is something, I mean, storytelling goes back to the dawn of humanity. You know, the storytelling is how we pass down history. Storytelling is how we taught lessons to our young. This is in every culture across the

globe. And what's fascinating is when you track like mythology, mythology is pretty similar in all these different regions of the world, even though these people never interacted with one another for generations and centuries after these stories were first written. So there are certain elements that are just inborn and sort of programmed in our brains as humans. So you're right. You don't need an English degree or a major from a fancy, you know, Ivy League school or anything to know what's good and what is. You might not be able to break it down and know, oh, that's that's peripatia. although we taught me folks that term today, but you know what's good,

you resonate it, you feel it within yourself as a human. You feel it. That's it right there is you feel it. Just like when you feel, you know, Stevie Ray Vaughn playing a guitar versus anybody else that's really good. Exactly. It feels different.

And that's how this story feels. And I mean, all you have to do is simply go back and watch, you know, what happened when Sammy finally hit Roman with that chair at the Royal Rumble. That crowd exploded. And I think for a lot of people, as someone who has been at a live wrestling show and who has popped, you know, at an exciting moment, I think that was pretty involuntary for so many people because it was just, it was so inborn that they just, before they even knew it, they were out of their seat and jumping up and down and shouting after seeing that moment happened. You're right.

It just, it resonates so much with us, you know, when a good story is told and when a good story climaxes. And I think what's so exciting for me is the act. in some ways is still rising. You know, when you look at how a story is created, you know, we're still seeing, you know, rising action here, especially coming out of the Royal Rumble. We're probably not going to know what this climax is, how this story ends for several more weeks now, or this is something that they've got gas in the tank that could go for many more months.

We know that at WrestleMania, Roman is going to be fighting Cody. We know that there's a great story there already that's built in with Cody, you know, his whole theme being there's more than one royal family and professional wrestling. So there's still this story of family and blood and what that means. Will Sammy align himself with Cody? Will Sammy and K.O. go off to fight solo and Jimmy, and where's Jay? Is he caught in the middle? How does Dwayne the Rock Johnson play into this?

I know a lot of people were hoping that Dwayne would come back to fight Roman at some point. Maybe that's still down the line, but maybe we could have him as a, as a special guest referee or an enforcer at WrestleMania or something like that. And I think one of the areas of opportunity that's still left for them to explore if they want to is the lore around this, where there are so many, you know, wrestling legends in that Anawai family that they could, you know, go to, you know, Afa and Sika's home. You know, they could potentially bring in Naomi. I mean, Naomi feel the glow.

I love Naomi as a face, but how much more compelling of a character could she be if she was there on jimmy's side and maybe now she's trying to help jimmy decide who do we want to align with we want to align with roman or do we want to align with jay i mean there's still so much uh you know juice in the in the berry so to speak lots of great opportunity here so yeah i mean i don't know if you can tell from just the way i'm talking off here right off i'm i am excited about this story i haven't felt this way i don't know how you remember all this stuff but tell me i want to i can't help this man and i'm i'm usually the first guy when people start fantasy booking i kind of tag out because it's not my thing but listening to you and your

enthusiasm which is addictive contagious i should say um and you talked about earlier about roman not not only beating you physically but beating you mentally yeah and now we got rock floating around out there and everybody's subconscious or conscious we don't know where he's going to land And I'm hoping he was going to show up at Rumble, but he didn't. We don't know if he's going to show up at Russell Me. He's a big time movie star, our highest paid actor on the planet. It's not like he can just drop whatever he's doing in the middle of a movie. And all of the other complications, including insurance that comes along with something like that.

But let's just say, and now I'm fantasy booking here, but let's just say, Rock can't participate. And it's Cody and it's Roman. Just the fact that Rock would show up and sit at ringside and stare a hole through Roman reigns, never have to lift a finger, never have to get out of his chair. And now we're reversing one of Roman's greatest attributes, his strength is his ability to get inside your head. All it will take is a look from Rock and a wink to Cody. and a smile on Cody's face, and at that point, 50% of Roman's power has been decimated by the mere presence of the rock.

I love it. I love it. See, this is what's so exciting about professional wrestling. I still attest to this day as someone who has studied the greatest works of literature and who has seen performances at Shakespeare's Theater in London at the globe. to me, there is no better, more exciting form of storytelling and live action and live drama theater than professional wrestling when it's done right. When pro wrestling is at its best, there is nothing else that gives you the emotions that a great wrestling storyline does. That gives you the goosebumps that a great wrestling storyline does. That literally has you jumping out of your seat involuntarily, you know, because of the things that you see happening in front of you.

that is what's so compelling and you know you mentioned that just a second ago too you know dwayne being uh one of the biggest movie stars in the world and the celebrated actor i see that that must be something that pardon the pun but runs in the bloodline uh because i have been so impressed with the performances by the usos particularly jay i've been so impressed by roman you know i think one of the things that really helped roman looking back on uh his sort of heel turn at the end of 2020 when he really started to play this more, you know, maniacal, manipulative, cold-blooded character was the fact that it was happening in the Thunderdome era. And so it allowed Roman to talk more softly into the microphone, kind of Jake the Snake style,

which really made you as a viewer have to lean in and listen to Roman. And I think, you know, having his character introduced in that setting when he was doing in ring promos and able to speak a little bit more softly and a little bit more, you know, heart to heart to his cousin, Jay Uso. I think that was really compelling as well. And Sammy, when Sammy started crying at the end of the trial of Sammy Zane at Raw 30 just a few weeks ago, I mean, that got me misty-eyed. He looked so real.

And that right there, again, this gets back, this is a little bit more drama now than storytelling. But when you look back at what made Shakespeare so great, he told these guys. great stories, but they were performed by great actors. But back in those days, only men were allowed to be actors in Elizabethan England. So, I mean, when you imagine a guy like me, potentially dressed up as Juliet, I mean, that can be pretty hard to believe. So these have to be some really good actors for you to buy in and to sort of lose yourself. And that's what's happened. Every time these wrestlers have gotten on screen for me, Sammy Zane, I believe it. Jay

Uso, I believe it. Roman, I believe it. Paul Heyman is just incredible to me, how he continues to play. I love this new gimmick of his The Wise Man, you know, from the Advocate to the Wise Man. It's just, you know, these are compelling, and maybe now I'm getting too fanboyish, but, I mean, submit this for the Emmys, potentially, you know. These are like really great live performances. These guys don't get multiple takes like you would on an episode of Better Call Saul. These guys are out there performing live, just like Shakespeare and his crew, just like the Athenians back in Aristotle's Day, and they are delivering incredible performances week after week in front of a live audience. And it is just truly the epitome of television, live action, theater, storytelling, you name it, they are ticking the boxes right now. I was going to ask you, where do you see it going?

But we've kind of touched on it a little bit, and we know that we don't know where it's going to go because there's so many. opportunities for to go in so many great directions. None of them are bad. They're all good. Which one is it going to be? You know, that's where we're at. And that's part of the exciting thing. I think, you know, what's great is I don't think anyone can necessarily anticipate where this is going. But as I talked about before, you know, we knew when this story started, either Sammy was going to turn on Roman eventually in the bloodline or vice versa. So the bloodline was going to turn on Sammy. So we knew what was coming, and yet still, they told such a compelling story that it kept us with them all along. And I mean, this, we talked about Juliet a second ago.

When you think of Romeo and Juliet, in the first eight lines of the play, in the prologue, before the play even begins, Shakespeare spoils it for us. Two households, both alike in dignity, and fair Verona where we lay our scene, from ancient grudge break to new mutiny, where civil blood makes civil hands unclean. From forth the fatal loins of these two foes, a pair of star-crossed lovers take their life, whose misadventurous piteous overthrows doth with their death bury their parent's strife. Man! Why am I sitting through the next two hours of this play if you just told me what's going to happen? You know, this is one of those things that the best storytellers, they can do that. They can do that. They can plant the seeds and already, even though we all knew when this story began, that one was going

to turn on the other, we just didn't know how it was going to happen. And we went along for the ride. And, you know, it worked for Shakespeare. Romeo and Juliet is probably the most famous work of literature ever created. And, you know, it's working here for Sammy Zane and Roman and the bloodline. We all knew what was coming, but we didn't know how we were going to get there. We didn't know how it was going to happen. Just like in Romeo and Juliet, you don't know, you know how it ends, but you don't know what happens along the way. And this is what a compelling story can do. It can really, really, even though you know the ending,

and again, the ending is kind of inborn in all of us for some of these basic stories, these mythological stories. But it's how you get there. It's basically it's the journey, not the journey. You know what's, I'm smiling. I mean, I'd love Riffin with you. It's so much fun. For two reasons.

Number one, it reminds me of a meeting I had with a guy by the name of Benny Medina. Benny Medina used to be a talent manager in Hollywood. He also had his own production company. He managed some chick named Jennifer Lopez and a couple other big pop stars, but he also had a production company that was pretty successful. And my partner at the time, Jason Hervey and I had a meeting one day with Benny and some of his staff because we were pitching them an idea. We came up with the idea, but it was a music-based idea,

and we felt that his production company would be better suited to produce it than ours. We were mostly goofy reality, celebrity reality. Celebrity, they used to call it. Anyway, took the meeting, and this was the first time I'd ever met Benny Medina, heard all about him, heard his reputation, powerful guy, Hollywood at the time. And we sat down and he goes, let me ask you a question. In your, in whatever you're presenting to me here, does the end hang on the beginning? Jason and I just looked at it.

He said, like, what? And he knew, he knew he confused us. And then he went on to tell us why every project that he does, however he goes about it, he always looks at it from the perspective of when I, I tell this story, the end has to hang on the beginning, which is kind of what you're talking about. Exactly. And another perfect example, perfect example of something contemporary.

Lori and I, Mrs. B, just started watching White Lotus. Heard about it. Got some more HBO, right? Not generally my cup of tea for that, typically, for that kind of, that genre. But we wanted to check it out because we heard. heard so much about it. And it's a very unique series. And now I'm hooked. Like, I can't get the needle out of my arm. Really? Oh, wow. Fortunately, we had, I didn't, I didn't learn about it until after we had two seasons available to stream. So now we're every, every single night,

seven nights a week. We're going to burn through it in another two days. Season one and season two. But what's unique about it is the setting is in a high end resort in season one, high end resort, uh, somewhere in Mexico or Hawaii. Yeah, I think Hawaii. Yeah, it was Hawaii. It's a four-season resort, but they call it the White Lotus. And in the opening scene of episode one of White Lotus, there's a body in a casket being loaded onto a plane. And you see this character who is obviously very upset, young guy, yep, there it is, young guy who's very upset looking at this casket being loaded to the plane. so now you know somebody died who is it who killed them or how'd they die that's the beginning it's also the very end it's so cool they take you they show it to you in the beginning

and then they take you on the journey and they remind you that they told you in the very beginning this is how it ends it's so cool it's exactly what you're talking about it's it's so important it's so important and i think you know what's what's really been great about this story too are characters. I think, you know, we for years, and when I say we, I speak on behalf of all wrestling fans, but I know a lot of wrestling fans, you know, really wanted to see Roman Raines turn heel. I mean, I was at WrestleMania 32. I'm pretty sure that was the one in Jerry's World down at AT&T Stadium in Arlington, Texas, where Roman was fighting, I believe it was Triple H in the main event. And it was just, Roman had been pushed down our throats for so long, kind of like

what we saw with Sina, that it was one of these things where here you have this badass guy who looks super tough. He's also got like an air of mystery to him and, you know, he's out there in the flack jacket and everything like that. And it's like, you don't want to see this guy giving promos where he's saying, well, suffer and suck attach. You know, I think that's become one of the famous sort of memes of the last five or ten years. Here you have, you know, if Stone Coldsteen Boston was coming out, having promos and quoting Daffy Duck, and not quoting Daffy Duck ironically, but like actually quoting Daffy Duck, like that was part of his usual comebacks to people. I mean, that just doesn't feel realistic for that character. So when Roman

finally became a heel in, you know, in the summer of 2020, I think we were all anticipating that he was going to be, you know, this maybe silent but deadly, silent but violent, you know, just an ass kicker, which he is. And that's great. But he has been so compelling as a character. and his whole dynamic with Paul Heyman has been fascinating because we know who Paul Heyman is. He is the master manipulator. So is he the one that's kind of been manipulating Roman through all of this? Or has Roman been manipulating him? But they've been together from the start. And we get this really, you know, just sort of maniacal sort of character out of Roman that's been so compelling. And I think what's been so compelling adding Sammy Zane to the

mix. Again, Sammy Zane came in right after WrestleMania last year after he had, you know, fought Johnny Knoxville and lost, which on it, I know this too is a very divisive match amongst the wrestling community. I loved it. I thought that match was one of the highlights of last year's WrestleMania. We knew going in that this is a promotional thing for jackass four or five or 10 or whatever the movie was. We know it was going to be a lot of Gaga. But Sammy just carried that match so well, and it was so entertaining, and he was such a great performer. But coming out of that match, I don't think we all saw an upward trajectory for him. So he was really sort of, you know, if we were to rank all the, the WWE superstars at the time, his power ranking would have been

quite low. And what was great about his character was, we knew that Sammy Zane at the time was a conspiracy theorist and kind of wacky and, you know, connecting all these weird dots that maybe weren't there. And so, you know, we know that he's sort of a schemer himself. And when he approached Roman for that very first time and said, you're the head of the table, you're the champion around here. But now you're, you know, you're the universal champion and the world champion. Now you're not just on Smackdown. You're going to have to be on Raw. You really need a guy around here who knows everybody and has got his ear to the ground. And Sammy introduced himself and almost pitched himself to Roman as the most tenured smackdown superstar.

So you need me, Roman, to sort of keep you informed and tell you everything that's going on here. Now, we all know that, you know, Sammy is probably just angling to try to hitch his wagon to that star of Roman Raines. We all know that Sammy is just scheming and he really has no game, but okay, whatever. We'll let you play. But what's been so compelling about starting Roman off here and starting Sammy off here is the fact that these were both villains at the time. But what made Sammy so enduring? I mean, we saw Sammy, you know, literally trying to manipulate things himself, you know,

whispering things into Roman's ear about Jay or about Jimmy or about Paul. And it's been subtle. It's not been over the top. Exactly. Exactly. And we'll see sometimes where, you know, he gets a moment where Roman approves of something that he did. Yes. All right. Cool. It worked. But the whole reason why we as fans have come to appreciate and love and root for Sammy is because he started out so low. And when you look at power differentials and, you know, the relationships that a bully has with, you know, the person that they're picked on, what's really interesting is that the stronger the power difference is, the greater the vulnerability and the greater the risk is for those who are sort of downpower who are lower on on the uh on the ladder and so that power differential and

knowing that sammy you know he's just the fool almost in the shakespeare play walking into a den of lions we know that even though he's a bad guy and even though he's ambitious and even though he's angling to try to get in with these he's still sammy zane exactly hey no let me ask you on that point and i'm going to go back a little bit of background i first met sammy back in 2019 when I was in WWE briefly, and I hit it off with him right away. I just chemistry-wise, but internally, without saying anything negative or mentioning names, he was kind of like, you want to work with him, you work with him. I can't handle him.

He's too high power. He's too, he's always, you know, in that whole conspiracy theory and connecting dots. That's kind of who he is, right? He's very outspoken. He's very high energy. he's a super talented guy but you have to have a lot of time on your hands to really have a great conversation with him sure short conversations don't work and i like a guy like that but he was kind of regarded as eh so on a personal note i love seeing sammy zane the person yes kind of

keep digging and digging and sticking with it and persevering and putting up with the politics and the transitions and being kind of a forgotten talent some some regards and then emerging at the top. It couldn't be in a more powerful storyline, one that people will remember probably for the next 10 or 15 years. And for me personally, to watch a guy that I know who was regarded as kind of, okay, you work with him. Now he's playing at that highest level says a lot about him as a person,

as a professional, and as a talent. Absolutely. The other point I wanted to make is I've never really dug, I shouldn't say that. I've enjoyed watching Roman. I've admired his performance, his character, consistency, everything about it. But my take on Roman up until Rumble was bent,

you said it, silent but violent? Dude, every guy in America wants to be silent but violent in real life. We aspire to that, consciously or subconsciously. We relate to that consciously or subconsciously. To me, that doesn't make a great heel. To me, that's kind of like a cool-ass baby face that plays a heel or that is a heel but he's so freaking cool you doesn't have any heat right right that's one characterization for roman going back to to sammy just the opposite sammy starting down here as you put

it and roman starting up here and sammy you know eating his way up that food chain so to speak that's aspirational to the average person because therefore the grace of god go i meaning you can relate to a guy like sammy yes because you know that's where you would be, you know, in that scenario. You could see yourself being Sammy Zane. You can't see yourself being the rock or being Roman Rains, right? That's kind of hard. Right.

Well, when you watch a character like Sammy Zane move his way up, that's aspirational. Now you got Roman, who up until, in my opinion, up until Royal Rumble, when he got real heat, he didn't get, I wish I was you heat. He got, I want to see you. burn heat. That's one of me. Exactly. And I look back now and I guess I kind of, I admire the story more after listening to you today than I did before. And I'd dug it before. So thank you, Tom. I can't wait to revisit this whole thing with you after WrestleMania. Yes, I was going to say, I hope I have an invitation back where we can, where we can look back on everything. And I will say for

the subscribers at ad-free shows, Dominic DeAngelo and I, we will one day do one of our big three or four hour long, deep dives going through week by week, step by step, all the different twists and turns of this story. But yeah, you're right on the money, Eric. You know, when you look at Roman Raines, he ascended to a new level. And again, that's the thing with Sammy. You know, Sammy, he was playing with snakes. He was playing with fire. And he got burned. He got bit this week and we saw it finally happen and uh but again just that little twist with j uso maybe sammy's not alone after all we're going to have to wait and see brother appreciate it so much time i know you're a busy guy go knock the hell out of it and i'll talk to you soon always a pleasure

thanks eric