83 Weeks with Eric Bischoff - Strictly Business #59: The Perception of AEW and WWE (ft. Andrew Zarian)

Episode Date: December 29, 2023

Eric Bischoff is on vacation this week, but the business of the business rolls on! In this edition of Strictly Business, Jon Alba welcomes in Andrew Zarian of the Mat Men once again to discuss the perceptions of WWE and AEW right now, and how that may affect how they do business in 2024! Plus, additional insight on their respective media distribution deals! Special thanks to this week's sponsors! Manscaped- Get 20% Off and Free Shipping with the code WRESTLEBIZ at Manscaped.com. BlueChew- Try BlueChew FREE when you use our promo code WRESTLEBIZ at checkout--just pay $5 shipping. FOLLOW ALL OF OUR SOCIAL MEDIA at https://83weekslinks.com/ Stop throwing your money on rent! Get into a house with NO MONEY DOWN and roughly the same monthly payment at SaveWithConrad.com On AdFreeShows.com, you get early, ad-free access to more than a dozen of your favorite wrestling podcasts, starting at just $9! And now, you can enjoy the first week...completely FREE! Sign up for a free trial - and get a taste of what Ad Free Shows is all about. Start your free trial today at AdFreeShows.com If your business targets 25-54 year old men, there's no better place to advertise than right here with us on Strictly Business. You've heard us do ads for some of the same companies for years...why? Because it works! And with our super targeted audience, there's very little waste. Go to AdvertiseWithEric.com now and find out more about advertising with Strictly Business. #WWE #AEW Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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What's going on, everyone on, everyone. It's time for strictly business right here on the ad-free shows and podcast heat networks. I am John Alba. And I know half of you think that I'm insufferable as is. Well, I'm coming down with a cold, so I'll be probably even more insufferable on this week's edition of Strictly Business. Eric is on vacation with his family right now, and I wanted to give him some much-needed R&R with the whole Bischoff crew.

So I decided to call in another one of our tag team partners here on Strictly Business, someone that we featured on this podcast earlier this year. He's the host of the Matt man. You can see him pretty much anywhere. you get your wrestling podcast i believe he's one of them we're entertaining and insightful minds in the wrestling industry today for better or for worse he is andrew zarian what's going on man how are you you know that that that was a very honest uh introduction to me again yeah like like people think that we're professional bullshitters but i'm just being very real with you

what you see is what you get i i know that you have a quota filling the show with people with great hair in the pro wrestling business you know easy ease the original oh yeah you know that that that that nitro haircut that he had i can't top that but i'm going to try my best today to fill in uh big shoes here on the show for you it's unbelievable man because you combine the hair with the dimples and that bravado that he carried at that time he still carries no he still does he still does uh you know i'm excited to be here uh this is uh this has been this has been a i mean for me personally too right when when talking about professional wrestling and you too i mean it's been a fascinating year to do this uh the landscape has changed tremendously and it seems like it's continuing to

change every every couple of weeks we get some some weird story out there that kind of pivots everybody yeah and that's what we're gonna hit on this year you know over on the 83 week show with conrad eric did like a three and a half hour year in review and they talked a lot about some things that happened, but I felt that we could provide a little bit of a different perspective. You know, one of the things that I do take pride in this, Andrew, and I know some of our audience doesn't necessarily take it that way, but I think it's important to have differing viewpoints, differing backgrounds when you're discussing something. You know, Eric is 38 years my senior.

So we have very different perspectives and approaches to discussing these elements of the business or creative, whatever it may be. And I think that's good for providing quality discourse. People will agree or disagree with that. But I know you're very much someone with your finger on the pulse of the happenings of the business side of the wrestling industry, especially as far as distribution is concerned. So that's definitely something we want to talk about as we look back on 2023 on this edition of Strictly Business. And I want to be very honest in how we look back at this year because I do feel, Andrew, like the past few years, probably dating back to 2020, I'd say, we've been like, this is the craziest year in wrestling history. And every year, somehow, some way, we find ourselves saying that again and again, perhaps at an even larger scale than before.

So when you look back at 2023, what initially comes to mind as having stood out the most about the state of the industry for you? I'm going to touch on it, but I wanted to rewind a little bit and you were talking about the discourse on the show especially. I thought that show you did with Eric a couple of weeks ago about WBD and where it's headed was fascinating. You know, and I'm listening to that and I know you personally. I don't know Eric well personally, but obviously I know of Eric Bishop over my span of being a professional wrestling fan and people in business that I talk to regularly know Eric well. I thought it was a great conversation to have because you both have such different perspectives. He is far more on the corporate side of things. He understands that end of it. I'm, you know, I kind of lean towards Eric's side when it comes to.

my mindset when it comes to business, but it was, it was a great conversation. And I think the people that got it really appreciate it. I think a lot of people didn't understand both of your points. Because I saw some of the, some of the feedback on it. But just you need to have these discussions. You need to be able to change people's perspective. Even, even last week's show, you and Eric were talking about, uh, just, you know, the, the talent versus the corporate side of things and i thought it was fascinating i you know just a really interesting conversation to have with someone that has a very unique perspective like eric yeah you know you may agree you may disagree but i thought it was i thought it was a very healthy and positive conversation i appreciate

the show for that that's why i really listen because you you look at things very differently than eric does but you're able to somehow you know manage to have a civil conversation which does not really happened too often. Except last week when I did have to raise my voice at him for trying to convince our audience that Vince McMahon never returned to WW. Yes, yeah. But he gave in. He gave on that one. And he gave in. He gave in. So I'm looking out for you guys. Just I'm trying to hold the accountability there. No, it was as good. I appreciate that. And look, you know, we have a really awesome fan base for the 83 weeks feed in general for both shows. And, you know, Eric's fans are very passionate and we're very appreciative of all of them and i understand you're not going to please

everybody but i do think it's important to offer those different perspectives and you know i we see the comments right it's like oh you say one good thing about a a w shill or you say something good about w w we and they're like the w wwee shill is like man we're just trying to have a conversation here and neither of us including yourself none of us are working for any of these companies there's nothing to shill in general we I have no problem. Send me your money. I don't care.

Send me money. I'm not, I'm not, you know, my whole thing, I'm not a journalist. And I'm not, and I like not being, uh, bought and paid for by advertising. I don't really do this for profit. I do this because I enjoy doing it. Uh, I like kind of being a disruptor sometimes with things, uh, but you really do like, Erica. You know, I got to tell you that there's, I don't, I, you know what? I would love to grab a drink with him.

Oh yeah. I love to grab a drink with him. You know, him and I had a conversation off the year, the last time I was on here. And it was interesting because he said some things that I also hear regularly, you know. And I thought that was interesting because we come for very different sides of, I guess, the business of media and everything. Yeah. Just fascinating. But this year's going to be, you know, looking back at 2023, I, I, there were numerous things that I thought would have happened or didn't happen that when a total.

different way just just based on my things that I had heard and so did you dive in more on that I'd love to hear that yeah I think I think the the collision show was definitely when I initially heard about collision happening it was described to me in a very very different way it wasn't described to me as a a plus show an A1 show it was described to me as listen we're consolidating our products Warner wants everything that we do on their property when it comes of wrestling with AEW so dark and dark elevation had to go and this was the replacement that is how it was presented to me uh I initially I mean listen this is very very early on and I I guess maybe Februaryish uh I I thought it was just going to be a sea level show to get the talent on it was a

one hour program on a Saturday afternoon like I like it like a six o'clock or a seven o'clock six a Saturday show and I was actually championing that because i think it's interesting i think it's important to have earlier content if you're trying to grow your content for kids because listen you're a little younger than me but and i'm sure you had the same thing i didn't grow up on monday night raw when i started watching wrestling it was saturday you know superstars in the challenge that's what we watched and then saturday night's main event was a big thing and it created an entire generation of fans on saturday afternoon programming and that really doesn't exist today so i was actually excited to have an earlier product

for my kids to be able to watch you know because i don't keep them up till nine o'clock to watch wrestling or eight o'clock to watch wrestling some nights what a bad father you are i know i'm terrible but we did go to monday we did go to uh we did go to the house show on friday seemed like it was a blast on tuesday oh dude it was it was it was great it was total blast so that was something that i didn't see happening um i would have i would have leaned heavy that the warner deal would have been done for tv uh i do know that the the the internet distribution side was kind of worked out uh i was and i don't know what the delay is i mean one could assume that maybe tony's waiting for the tv deal to happen or the offer to happen for that or

something else is going on but i would have assumed that the tv deal would have happened i did not expect raw to drop from uh from nbc that was not something that i thought would happen that thing is a flagship for them so that that was interesting you know a lot of things are changing the endeavor story that's another big one right yeah i would say it's certainly a big one yeah there's a myriad of things to hit on there from what you said i'll start with the collision stuff the it it was when we first heard the word of it it was kind of like an homage to yesteryear of wrestling you just alluded a little bit to your personal memories and i remember hearing that as well and you and i had conversations about that at the time and then it quickly changed

into what many were perceiving to be the CM Punk show, right? And we went so quickly from CM Punk having this flagship show where it was his guys working and the show was produced the way that he wanted to look, at least that's what everyone was insinuating, to just a few months later, he's entirely gone from the company and collision is just simply existing as another AW property. I mean, have you noticed any shifts in the perception of the show from the business side of things, from Warner Brothers Discovery, from advertisers, any conversations that you're having? You know, I, from the, I haven't had this conversation for a while, but initially they, everybody was aware that this was going to be a difficult night to get a million plus.

I, I don't think that was the expectation here. you know, 650 healthy number to be at, you know, for numbers. And this was all loose conversations. I'm not, I'm not confirming that this was the,

the, the mission statement. It wasn't the barometer. It wasn't the barometer. But it was, it was, you know what? We're comfortable with this.

We're not comfortable with this. But, you know, dipping into the fours and possibly to threes, that's a little alarming. And I don't think people anticipated that other programming would, be such an impact, right? But you have WWE pay-per-views. You have UFC pay-per-views. You have, you know, Saturday night sports. You have everything else going on. College football.

So many moving parts here. It didn't become must-cTV. And I think the anticipation was that it would be a little bit more because of how dedicated that Wednesday night audiences. But the other problem was, I don't think people, I don't think WBD in mind thought that there would be some sort of animosity as far as the audience splitting where you don't care for punk so you're not watching collision and that was that was something that played a part too where you know within within the fan base people were turning on the other product and you want to create the competition but you also don't want to alienate your audience and I think there was a lot of personality to play to it to juxtapose it to what w.E did in 2002 when they

did the brand split WWE had the established equity with its fan base where you had the dedicated multi-million personal audience where you could afford to do stuff like that and it potentially even drove up fan interest right in oh i really want to see why ross going to be better than smackdown this week or or whatnot with a w and this has been something that eric has talked about a lot and i think it's a conversation that many people have had the idea of growing too much too quickly and here we are this company has been around for four years and they have three television properties, including two shows on a Friday and Saturday, which aren't necessarily the most ideal real estate for television, and you're asking your audience to commit to not just a one-hour

program on that Saturday, but a two-hour, it's a lot to ask for. And when you add in the tribalism element, Andrew, it does feel to me like it almost saturated its own product from that sense where the collision shows, I think, are generally from an in-ring standpoint high quality television programs but it's just so much of it right it's so much of it um you know there's a lot of wrestling and and outside of pro wrestling right outside of me a lot of my clients i work in entertainment i work in nightlife uh i tell them this every single day and a lot of time people don't listen because they think it's too broad of a statement you are not just competing with your own um you know competition like you know

WAA is not competing with WW. AW's competing with everything that's happening. Right. Including TikTok. There have been numerous times and I'm a, you know, I'm a P1 viewer. I'm as dedicated as they come. I'll turn it on every week. I'll watch it.

Even if I'm not enjoying it because I cover professional wrestling, I'll watch it, whatever it is, you know, if it's Raw or Smackdown, whatever. There are numerous times that my wife takes her phone and she shows me something on TikTok and I realize I've been on TikTok for the next last 20 minutes. Yeah. going down a rabbit hole right that is your competition you're not just compete you're competing with the holidays you're competing with sports you're competing with your personal life uh you're competing with everything that's that that's a distraction to you so you must have something

that's i mean something you need to watch yeah and i and this goes for w2 this is not just an a w issue you have to provide something that people want to tune in for every single week because once you start falling off after a couple of weeks, it's hard to get you back. Right. And when you have like for AEW, you have Dynamite, which is their flagship, you have, and Collision was supposed to be a flagship too,

and then you got Rampage, you get, it gets diluted. Maybe you're going to catch collision this week and not Dynamite. Maybe you're going to wait a week to watch it on DVR. Once that starts happening, that's not a positive. Yeah, yeah. But also, it's funny.

I was watching the show that's on Disney Plus. I think it's courtesy. of National Geographic, it's this like 10-episode docu-series on the 90s. And they did a whole episode about the concept of must-see TV.

Where with must-see TV, they specifically referred to NBC being must-c-TV at the time, because you had Seinfeld, Friends, Frazier. It was just an incredible array of shows that they had. And back then, you didn't have DVR, you didn't have TiVo.

So it was must-see because if you wanted to talk about what happened on friends last night with your own friends, you had to watch it live. Yeah. And must see TV doesn't exist in 23 outside of professional sports. Pro wrestling,

we often talk about where it falls in that line. It's a sports-centric entertainment programming, but it doesn't share the same commonality of pro sports where if you truly want a DVR an episode of RAW and watch it later, fast forward through the commercial,

you don't need that same real-time experience with the fan base that you do need when you watch a Yankee game, right? Like, you can't DVR a Yankee game and watch it two days later. It's no longer going to it. Absolutely. The other issue is the discourse, the online discourse, right? There are times that, you know, I'm running late from the city. I haven't caught, you know, the first hour dynamite or even,

even Smackdown, whatever it is, I already know everything that's happened. I've seen all the best moments. I know the entire show. And you know what? If I wasn't a dedicated viewer, if I didn't do this, that would be enough. Most weeks, I have people, I had a big thing here for Christmas. I had family members. I had my friends over.

There were so many people here. We were all talking about my wrestling. I know. You did. You should have came. I know. I should have invited. Well, you're far away in Jersey.

You're in Jersey land. I'm not. Just flinging out. It's like an hour plus. I'm good. You've got to stay here, dude. I would have come over. Yeah.

And you know what next time. Okay. But the conversation was, I was talking to people about AEW and WW and these people have not turned on the product in like eight months. Really? They know everything that's happening. So that is, is that valuable to you as a fan base? You know, how do you convert those guys over? You better do something great to get them to watch again.

And it gets harder and harder. So I think that's the biggest challenge. Was it indifference to the product that? they weren't watching or was it just no it wasn't must see it's just not must see they get enough of it online they could see the clips they go to youtube they go on twitter and they're good you know that fulfills them so it's a very interesting year we're going into because i think that's going to happen more and more uh again i don't think it's it's fair to say that the um you know like a w's in the mud or any you know you hear you hear all that stuff i think it's been a

challenging year with a lot of obstacles thrown thrown in their way but they also have the ring of honor problem yeah and that's another thing which they're not on tv i don't personally i don't see them getting on tv with that product unless something changes um well and we've talked about it too here where it's like is is that becoming an obstacle in your a w distribution rights and and getting that deal cemented wherever that deal may be is the idea that bundling it and we talked about that on the show a few weeks ago is the idea that bundling it going to get in the way of AEW securing its own TV rights deal. I would say that that may have been a goal originally, but I think we're beyond that now. I think the biggest priority is locking in your TV that you currently have and, you know,

getting a decent media rights deal for it. Because I mean, as we sit here and record this, just last night, Ring of Honor was the main event segment of AEW television. yeah yeah it was a ring of honor tag titles so and you know people weren't too pleased with that no no they weren't and i i want to piggyback on something you said before which was you said well it wasn't a great year for a w but there are other factors at play i do believe that in many cases Andrew, perception is reality. And it's hard to dispute that from a perception standpoint, not that you always need to compare the products, but perceptively, WWE had a fantastic year.

And whether it's by correlation or not, AW, the perception is that it didn't for a variety of reasons. And you can push back and you can say, well, they just, they did that Wembley show, which there's no disputing it, Andrew. The Wembley show was one of the greatest accomplishments that we've seen in modern wrestling. But aside from that, there was a lot of drama to go around both the business side of A.E.W, the talent side of A.W. The creative side of A.A.W. And that perception lingers. And going into 2024, that's going to be something that Tony really has to focus in on changing, know yeah and by the way the perception is not reflective of their financial success that they've had this year uh they've had tremendous financial success aew whether or not you're in the net net or

you know if you're talking gross or whatever but they they were able to generate income gross revenue that nobody in professional wrestling has ever achieved outside of w and that is a tremendous accomplishment to have um i listen i don't know their corporate structure there, right? But in talking to people, like I, you know, I know the WWE corporate structure pretty well because I know people there. You got to be a shark. You know, you got to be a shark. And for Tony, again, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not giving any insight on his, on his mindset here. But listen, you need to hire the best of the best if you're trying to compete in this world of media. And, and I, it seems like maybe they're headed that direction

with a lot of the positioning that they've had with their, you know, production and with their marketing departments, you know, you need to have people that are total sharks in this business to be successful. You can't leave any money on the table. Look at Nick's on.

I mean, Nick is the crem della creme when it comes to this. A highly impressive guy. Forget about the internet discourse, right? If you've ever spoken to this man, I had like 10 minutes. of a conversation with him just you could tell this guy knows what he's doing this is this is the game that he plays and he's one of the best at it uh there's no denying that regardless of you're an

a w versus w w w person but these are the people that you need to put in structure and outside of nick there are tons of other people on that side uh in the w w side that these are highly accomplished media people these are highly accomplished marketing sales whatever whatever it is I think for Tony, he needs to start getting his corporate structure going. And because fewer wrestling people, more corporate people. Is that what I'm hearing from you? Listen, I, that's how I would do it. Yeah.

You know, I'm not, listen, I'm not, I'm not in, I know Tony has a far busier life than I do. Of course. I created this nice little bubble for me that, that's very convenient in every, in every possible way. But I'm around these guys. I'm around these, these, these, these regularly. and I hear the conversations and it's above what I'm capable of and I think I'm a pretty capable entrepreneur but I'm honest when I sit in there I'm a kid next to them and I don't even have the reach of accomplishing what they do you know for Tony to for Tony to accomplish what he's

accomplished in four years as a startup and that's what it was right and he's even said that he looked at this as a startup it's unbelievable to achieve that in four years but at one point you're no longer a startup and you need to start hiring the people that are going to propel you into that next level i think that's that's the issue for ewe coming into 2024 they've accomplished everything that they could possibly accomplish with the current mindset but now okay you know the honeymoon's over it's obvious and it took about three and a half years for that honeymoon to be over and it was supposed to go that way that's how it always is now it's time to say okay what's our next phase what are we looking to secure are we looking to secure more media rights are we looking to get

more pay-per-view revenue what what's the next goal for us uh as far as growth and you know i think they're very much on that track you can see with the moves that they're making uh you know the internet talks the internet's going to complain as to why people are fired or why people were hired but there's a reason for this and you got to slowly evolve uh i've worked with friends that i've had to let go because it just they phased out you know we entered a different project we entered a different thing and i've been i've moved down from projects too as a consultant there are companies that i've worked with for five six years and i can't fulfill every need and they were going into a different direction and they replaced me and that's fine that's how it is and then i come back solely as a consultant and i start

poking at you and you end up paying me he's a shark that's how it works i i just get in your ear and I start, you know, saying stuff. But I think for AEW, it's going to be a, it's in all eyes on the product year. And that's not always fair, right? Well, simply just based on the fact that we don't know what their distribution is going to be come the end of the year. Um, I'm still leaning towards what it is. I am too. That was my prediction on last week's podcast. I said I believe they end up reupping with them.

What was Eric's? uh erics said that he isn't really entirely sure of the direction with warner brothers discovering now because of these merger talks or these sale talks with paramount yeah listen i and that's that's a monkey wrench that people really don't see happening right uh w b endeavor that that was something that i don't think people assumed two years ago would happen and it did and that's going to change the course of that company indefinitely i think right now it's it's it's it's it's it's I don't think it's going to be an abrupt change, but I think it's slowly changing.

We're seeing that happen. We're seeing how this is going to work. They also haven't totally installed that entire arm of how Endeavor is going to treat WWE moving forward and the WME stuff, you know, representation for talent and things like that. That's a big part for that. If you are Jade, you know, Jade, I think Jade is part of WME, right? I believe so.

I believe so. I believe she is. If you don't think that played a huge part in her decision making, right you're fooling yourself isn't it funny and this is a little inside baseball but our fans here on strictly business appreciate inside baseball isn't it funny that for so long in wrestling agents were so frowned upon having agents for your contract discussions for even media negotiation rights all that stuff it was frowned upon and now so much it is happening through agents, especially on a talent side of things. That, that, that, that has

changed a lot. As, as we shed, I mean, there's still independent contractors per se, but as we shed that perception of Rasslin versus, yeah, this much larger macro scale perception that we now have of it. That's an interesting shift for me. Listen, you could only wrestle for so many years. Right. And talent smarter than they were. You know, you're not doing. 300 shows a year and just traveling from town to town and not seeing your families. These are these are more actors in the form of entertainment than, you know, the Rassler. And the business had to change. And it's, and it always does when something goes mainstream.

And wrestling is far more mainstream and acceptable now that it ever was. So you're, why would you not have representation? If I'm on TV every single week, I better have an agent. I better have a management team. I better have someone in my ear telling me like, listen, they're trying to screw you here. You know, Don Buckwall changed a lot of that for a lot of people in the entire business, and he's still involved, which is amazing, you know, you, I don't find a problem with that, but you're right.

It was totally frowned upon with, you know, Lex Lugar having an agent or this one having an agent and negotiating the deals, but they're TV stars. What star on TV doesn't have an agent? Hey, this episode of Strictly Business is presented to you by Bluchu. Let's talk about sex, gents. Remember the days when you're always ready to go. Well, now you can increase your performance and get that extra confidence in bed by heading on over to bluechew.com. Bluechew is a unique online service that delivers the same active ingredients as Viagra, Seales, and Lovetra, but in chewable tablets and at a fraction of the cost.

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Visit bluechoo.com for more details and important safety information. And we thank Blue Choo for sponsoring strictly business. 100%. And I think that's exactly the way you have to look at it. Shifting a little bit onto the WWE side of the equation, this year was massive for WWE. The Endeavor Acquisition, which we've all spoken to ad nauseum about. Vince is back. And then he has his duties kind of stripped back a little bit from creative.

now Paul of X strictly in charge of that. We've seen the rise fall, rise again of Cody. We've seen talent jump over, CM Punk specifically. International expansion is clearly paramount for WWE right now, as we see what their pay-per-view schedule, the premium live event schedule is going to be for next year. And I think one of the biggest, most underrated takeaways for me from 2023 for WWE, Andrew, was the re-emergence of NXT.

to the point where they were able to package it off into a pretty nice TV deal with the CW moving forward. What are some of your thoughts on any of those factors? You know, when people were freaking out about NXT and their viewership and their rating, I was always told by people at USA that they love being in the 600s for that show. You know, right now, I think the number came out

for this week's NXT. It's 670,000 viewers. You know, is their demo the best? No, it's an older audience at the 0.19 demo. But it's, there aren't too many products on TV that could get garner that many viewers live. You know, that that's a live run, first run programming that you get 52 weeks a year. I think a lot of people forget that. This is a every week show with no breaks.

You know, the tonight show takes breaks. So it's very valuable in that sense. I think WWE's done a good job at selling this as, you know, this is a viable product. injecting, you know, main roster talent has obviously added a lot to this. It's a very different NXC than it was a couple years ago. It has helped a lot of it, and I also think, and he deserves a lot of credit. Sean Michaels has changed the perception of NXT quite a bit now that he's had some time to really dig his teeth into it. I think Sean Michaels, Andrew, carries himself so well from a leadership standpoint,

point. I've talked to a lot of NXT people about this where they really, really do respect Sean Michaels a lot in the role that he's taking on. He was kind of thrust into that position when NXT did that shift into NXT 2.0 and

they just put all these people on TV who had no experience on television whatsoever. And they had to go through a lot of growing pains. And I think 2023 was the year where Sean Michaels and his team really changed the perception of NXT and put it a little more into a ring-centric product

while also furthering some character development. I really think that played a lot into what NXT was able to leverage into this new television deal in combination with, as you said, WWE being more willing to put some of those main roster stars on it every now and then. Yeah, we'll see what it does on the CW. I mean, you're over-the-air programming now. You're not just on cable. I don't know if it matters at all anymore.

But if this was like 10, 15, 20 years ago, this would have been a huge deal that it's going back to a network, you know? So I'm curious to see how that falls in place. I am. I always thought Ring of Honor should have been that NXT style product for them. When they were doing those Orlando tapings for Ring of Honor, I thought that was a smart way to go. And you could have done the same thing where you bring a Brian Danielson down once a quarter or

you bring whoever down once a quarter. And that was your developmental and you fed talent. you know, Athena would be a great example. I know I'm getting into the thick of things here. No, no, but you're right. But Athena would be a great example. She's been leading that women's division in Ring of Honor. She's the champion there.

And then you slowly move her into the main roster. And you say, look, I was, I was, and you do that build like you've always done. I don't know. I don't know what the plan is. I'm sure that they've gone through every possible way to do this. And for whatever reason, they've settled on what they've settled on. um i think for nxc it's it's another product then you know what i'm curious if it's going to get a little bit of a younger viewership being on that channel yeah i i'm curious if that translates

to especially with c w making that shift into more sports centric programming which is something they're very much trying to get into with nascar with live golf they're going to have some basketball stuff too it's going to be an interesting shift to watch there if they can add some credibility to the CW brand moving forward and how does NXT help with something like that in the process. You spoke a lot about some of the criticisms of AW. I'd like to hear from your perspective, something that you'd like to see WWE improve on or switch up in 2024. I'll tell you, Monday Night Raw is way too bright. Okay. So bright. I'm blinded by how bright that show is. You know, I got to tell you, if we're looking at a business in a business front, I was at that garden show.

Yeah. I can't criticize anything that they're doing right now. They're firing on all cylinders. I would agree. You know, when I go to a WW show or I watch WW, I watch a very different product as far as, like, how I'm viewing it than I do with AEW. AEW is the wrestling I grew up with. It's more adult-based, right? more sports-centric, I guess, right?

Less story, less Ballyhoo. I was at that show on Tuesday with my kids, and I'm chanting with them, and I'm having fun with them. It's a very different way of viewing it. I'm able to separate the two products and view them, and I don't do this comparison thing where, like, AW has to be like WW. You mean you can consume wrestling without putting the price?

products in direct competition to one another? Listen, I watch a drama and I watch a comedy and I view it very differently. No way. Yeah, did you know that? You're allowed to enjoy the office and friends? Yeah, I could watch. I'm not a big friends fan. I mean, I know that's so unrealistic.

I know that's sacrilege to a mutual friend of ours. I know, my wife too. She gets very upset when I tell her that. I'm not a big friends fan. But, you know, it's a different perspective we're watching. I think right now they're firing on all cylinders. I think I have to be careful with I think they're going to have to be careful with keeping the momentum. Yeah.

Well, I'll tell you this. I think the thing that WWE needs to be cautious of next year is what is their talent strategy with all these contracts coming up and changing. We know they're trying to lock a lot of people down. We hear the report that Sean Ross-Sapp said from Fightful that Cody is locked on an agreement. agreement to re-sign, but they haven't actually execute a contract yet. We heard Bailey re-signed recently. We know that Seth Rallens and Becky Lynch are free agents coming up. We know that Sasha Banks, Mercedes-Money is going to be out there.

We know Drew McIntyre is going to be out there. What is their move on that front? Because that does give off some degree of perception to fans, right? Where you're telling them who's important on your television show, who's someone who you find expendable. And right now, I think Paul Levex doing a really good job at trying to give as many people quality stories as they can i mean they've done an excellent job with drew mackintyre right now but i am really interested to see andrew as we move forward here where that precedence is put on

who they decide to move forward with yeah i i think that's going to be that's going to be the big uh question here the top is very heavy for them as far talent goes they're very top heavy um it's a good problem to have it's a great problem to have with you know you have c m punk you have roman reins you have You know, you have this opportunity to do juggernaut after juggernaut main event program to keep this going. And, I mean, they have years of programming to go without even injecting anybody new to that top tier. And then you have, you know, other people coming up in that roster too. I think right now they've really solidified that top level. You know, Monday Night Raw, is it a little too long?

Is it a little too difficult to watch? yeah it is for me you know i i have a hard time watching that show for three hours i don't really necessarily have that problem with smackdown or you know what the funniest thing about that is and this is obviously subjective and we're getting into a whole other route here with that but aside from the fact that raw is a really hard show to get through in terms of length and committing to a three hour show i do think there's a fair good faith argument to be made that from a storytelling perspective, Monday Night Raw on 2023

might have been the best television show and wrestling, which is wild to think about, given the perception of Raw over the course of the past decade since they moved to three hours. But I do think that there was a change and shift in focus and creative this year in WWE where there was more emphasis put on week-to-week storytelling

and advertising stuff ahead of time. and Monday Night Raw more than any other show is a beneficiary of that. Seth Rollins says there's a lot of credit for that being the champion for that title that the, you know, the sorry you couldn't beat Robin Range Championship that they created. And I do think SmackDown, Andrew,

suffered from not having its top star pretty much at all this year. Oh, 100%. I, 2020 versus 2023, very different show. You know, they're trying to, they're doing something with this Roman stuff. They have a plan. They have an end goal here.

what inning are we in right now i think we're in the 13th we're in the 13th i'm at city field i'm sitting there at 1 o'clock to watch the met's lose that's where i'm at right now we got ghost runners on second base at this point i yeah i i would i would say you know i i'm not at the end with this right like we still don't know what the payoff is they know what the payoff is but is it cm punk uh is it cm punk you know, if I'm going to, if I'm going to say if WW could do one thing to kind of

solidify this, whatever, whatever era decade they're in right now. I don't even know what this era would be called. It's not the reality era. The new era 24. Whatever this is. The Endeavor era. The Endeavor era.

I would say, you know, if you have an opportunity to do two nights in Philly, you know, you get CM Punk and, you know, you do two dream matches, you never thought you would see, you could sell it as that you know you could get dwayne you get austin you have you have punk there you have roman there you have cody still in the mix you have an opportunity to do something very special um you know post vince this is the first post vince russomania

i would take that opportunity and do it and kind of build the rest of the year just piggy back on that momentum of what you did at russolmania you know for for them they're they're firing on all I can't I can't criticize anything you know their corporate structure is great they've they've streamlined a lot of stuff their creative has been much better um people are being given opportunities to break out and yeah and ride with them i mean look at the years double h running at the years that gunther had l a night uh even you could argue chad gable you know people like that chelcy green has done a great job ria rippley and the investment that came with that and it is if i can make a comparison standpoint, it's something that I really, really wish that AW did more of, and that's

riding the hot hand all the way. When you see that someone is starting to truly pick up some organic momentum, just roll with it. I mean, we saw it a few times with WWE this year. Even Jay Uso, you know, in L.A. Knight, where they might not necessarily have been in the plans from the get-go to ride them as single stars, but they did. And it made a big thing. difference. I mean, I know you were at that house show the other day. Ria Ripley is there ringside in the Dom Mysterio CM Punk match and Ria's getting some of the biggest reactions in the night. And can you imagine if I told you, well, when didn't she do that, uh, what was it, the Mayong Classic, right? When, when did she do that? 2017, 2017, 2018,

2018. If someone, if someone told you like, oh, we're going to, we're picking her, because everybody knew she was, she was fantastic. But we're going to turn her into a goth, occultist you would say what are you out of your freaking mind right it just shows you their execution they they they if if something is executed properly no matter how bonkers the idea is the new year is upon us and it's time to step into 2024 with confidence thanks to manscaped that's where resolutions are met and hairs are neatly kept as a new year approach is why not make self-improvement a breeze by keeping your body well-groomed.

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20% off and free shipping with the code wrestlebiz at manscape.com. That's 20% off with free shipping at manscape.com and use code wrestle biz, W-R-E-S-T-L-E-B-I-Z. Happy New Year to your balls. I just think that that is reflective of, again, when you see that a talent is catching something with the fans, they're connecting in a very certain way. You got to ride it. And like right now, AW is doing that with swerve. I do believe that swerve is going to. to be the guy in 2024 for AW because the reactions are becoming undeniable. You have to put him in that top tier spot with the best of the best in the company. But I give Paul Levec a lot of credit from a creative standpoint where we saw them ride that

momentum with a lot of individual different talent this year and give them opportunities to stand out because now, Andrew, they're going to have more equity going into WrestleMania 40 where some of these talents who maybe were here a year ago are going to be here. And that's a big difference. Yeah. Also, look, my kids, right? My kids got into wrestling about a year ago.

They're eight and seven years old. They're into this. And they're asking me like, oh, can we go to WrestleMania? And you know what? I'm thinking about it to do that drive to Philly. I'm thinking about doing it. I never would have thought that for myself. I wouldn't have done it.

I'm like, eh, whatever, I can miss it, but they want to go. So I'm going to go, you know, for them to be excited about this, you know, things are changing a little bit here. That's not to be said that AEWs is going to, you know, have a terrible year. I hope not, you know, I want everybody to be successful at this. The more wrestling, the better, the better for the talent, better for the viewer. You have a choice. You watch what you want to watch. You don't want to, you don't have to hate watch anything.

That's the other thing. Thank you. I don't understand that. It blows my mind. I got in a huge debate about this on social media this past week. I just don't understand the concept of hate watching. Imagine, Andrew, you're told to watch friends, right? You don't like friends, but you watch it just to shit on it anyway,

even though it makes you angry and it does nothing for you from an entertainment perspective. Why would you do that to yourself? Why would I do that to myself? listen i hate the jersey shore i'm not a jersey shore fan okay like the actual jersey store or the show no i love the jersey shore i love barre okay i was gonna say i was gonna you'd scream barre i scream barre i love that i i there's nothing more than watching uh a local jersey band playing music a little too loud for the venue and just going through like 15 beers there's nothing better than that on the jersey sure yeah like an age gap there's like 21 year olds in one point

part of the bar and then there's like 65 year old to 65 year olds it's split you know it's amazing uh i i'm not a fan of it i don't dedicate my life talking about how terrible it is right and talk about how the real world is a better show i i don't understand that mentality i'm missing some listen maybe i'm too i'm too old for it i i'm too busy for that i i like watching things that i enjoy i like to be positive i like positivity my life i don't like negativity in my life. I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't get it. But that's, that's the internet right now. That's internet discourse. That's what it is. Everything is a debate or an argument. You know, I, I, I think things are, it's weird. It's a weird thing. Yeah. I actually, I saw it honest,

dude. If I could, I pray for this one day. I want to hit the lotto. Okay. I hit the loto. Scyanara, suckers. I'm out of here. You will, nobody will see me. Nobody will hear from me. I will not have a Twitter. I'll talk to my friends. I'll text John Alba. How you doing from my island? And I'm done. My share, bro. We look alike. You can share. Yeah. You can share. Yeah. You can pay me to pose as you in public. You know what? You take all of it. You do whatever I'm doing. I will be your Ms. Dow. I, you know, like, I, I just want a better life. You know, I, and even talking to people, Like, I'm on that media call for AEW in about 30 minutes. Same here.

Okay. The messages I'm getting. You, you need to ask Tony. You need to tell Tony. I'm like, can you imagine I'm on a call with, you know, Disney and Bob Iger's on the call? I know people are going to get mad that I'm comparing Bob Arger to Tony, but, you know, both very successful, very wealthy men that know what they're doing, right? for the most part i'm like i'm not gonna that's not how it works that's not what i'm looking to do i'm not a journalist uh i do i do a i do a i do a podcast that breaks stuff with a bunch of dick jokes

in it you know that that that's and i do to show i want to do i'm not looking to do a got you but if i have a good question i'll ask it but i'm not i know the answer to some of these questions and i'm not going to ask it because it's i'm not going to get the answer right you know it's just you got it you got to kind of feel the room that's not what i do i get it but too like this is the grander point man i think as long as you're servicing your audience that yeah that's what matters that is what matters right wwe is doing that wwe has kind of to borrow your term more corporate sharks if you will where they're definitely more centric in that sense but i i brought this up on social too the other day when shabbat signed to you don't you

And I had all these people saying, what does this do for business? What, how does this improve eyes? You know, I mean, you know the comments that are going to come from that, right? And I quote tweeted one of them by saying, listen, is it going to attract a lot of US eyes? Probably not. But is it going to make a lot of Tony's AEW fans happy,

the people who like watching guys like Shabata? Probably. I guess so. Yeah, but you also, you also, you also why wouldn't you you also want really good hands on deck you know you well i think the argument is a w has so many of those types sure but but you know i they do i they do they definitely do um listen maybe maybe he's getting ready for the the next half of the year where maybe some of those guys won't be there anymore maybe contracts are ending there's a lot of

strategy that goes into this i you know people are like oh why is this guy there sometimes you just like someone and you want to give him a job and unfortunately you know some some people are going to turn around and say, well, that's not how business works. Yeah, that is how business works. You hire people that you like. And, you know, Tony's a big fan of Shabata. He said it publicly. You know, John, I'm a fan of yours.

You know, I like you personally. So you're going to hire me or what's the deal with it? Listen, well, here's a great example, right? And I'm not downplaying you at all, right? I think you're beyond capable. You're doing some awesome stuff, right? If I hire you to do a show for me, what's my expectation? is my expectation that you're going to be generating millions of dollars for me is my expectation that

I have a I have a certain concept that I think you're going to fit in there or am I or is it that John is a really good hand he's a professional broadcaster he's adding to my to my company he's adding to my to my main goal and he's part of this plan that I have for the long run you got to look at things in that perspective not everybody is a main event agreed guy I'm not saying that you're not by the way Hey, I got that network street cred now, baby. You do, you do. You can turn on your television while you're sitting there nursing or hangover on any given Saturday morning and watch. I had SNY on in my living room this morning.

I, you know, you have to look at what your end goal is. Listen, unfortunately, not everybody is going to be the millionaire. Not everybody's going to be the main event guy. But that's not saying they are not extremely capable. My whole thing in life has always been. I never want to be the best of what I do. I don't want to be the greatest of what I do. I want to be consistently decent.

If you are consistently decent in anything you do, whether it's your personal career or broadcasting or even AWTV or WW TV, it's going to get attraction to whatever your end goal is. Be consistently good. Andrew, as we wrap up, I'm going to put you on the spot here because we did our bold predictions last week.

Give me a bold prediction for AW and a bold prediction for WW for 2024. Okay. Bold prediction for WWE. I'm going to give one for EW. I'm going to go with, I mean, how bold.

However bold, you believe bold is. They are going to get a very large TV deal. Let's say that's bold, right? They're going to get a nice increase in their TV deal I don't believe WWE is going to Warner. So you believe this is a re-up? I think this is a re-up year. And I think they're going to have a nice,

I don't know what that number is going to be, but they're going to have a very, a increase, a very nice increase in their TV right. Will they be streaming on Max? They will be streaming on Max. Yeah, I'll go with that. Do you believe that? For WWE, oh, man.

I think they're going to have. more mainstream crossover and more celebrity crossover. I think that's going to happen. I think there's going to be some UFC crossover happening. I eventually think it's going to become almost a feeder system. UFC will be a feeder system for them. You'll have top talent that is maybe done. They're past their prime. And they go right to the PC. And they go right into the PC. Interesting. Because you have that endeavor thing. You know, a lot of those guys are represented from it. You know, like a Chuck Liddell, for example, I'm just giving an example, right? A Chuck Lidel, if this was put in place, I mean, he would have been a great move.

Oh, my God. You know, before, before he obviously, he had physically. Even Cormier had he made the move like at the right time, it would have been a great move. Absolutely. Cormier, the Diaz brothers, if they're not, you know, going to beat anybody up in real life. You know, Ron does the best example of this. You took a mega star from, you know, a pioneer for women's MMA, Misha Tate, uh, Gina Carrano, uh, Ronda Rousey.

Rhonda became the biggest name, went over to WV and you know what, regardless of the public discourse about it and what people think, she did tremendous. She did tremendous. It, it was an anomaly how good she was coming in. So, you know, I think we're going to see some of that also. we're going to see more than we think that that's my prediction i think that's fair i went really far on my bold prediction oh give me yours what is i said i said vince retires and stephanie returns to the company stephanie returns to the company uh i don't think yet

i don't think step is coming back yet yeah i don't think yet i think listen i i'm i'm maybe as an ambassador right maybe as i i don't know she's going to come in as like a day-to-day you know CEO the grind again yeah but I think she she will come back as some sort of

ambassadorship some sort of liaison she was too well liked very well liked her exit that's a fascinating story I'd love to talk to Eric about actually the exit

I'll leave a little teaser there I'd love to talk to Eric about that because I that was that was fascinating how that happened she left and she came back I'm going to ask you one more bold one.

Yeah, give me. If any top tier, give me one top tier talent from each company you could see making a swap. I would say Drew McIntyre would be a big get

for EW. Because there's not too many names left. Who's available? Who can show up? I don't know what Drew's contract status is, but I think someone like Drew would be a little bit

of a needle mover. Listen, if the MJF goes to WWE that is a huge hit to your optics tremendous hit to your optics when Cody left what was said to me by WWE was

this was an optics war and that began that started WWE winning yeah Cody left they had that big WrestleMania then slowly you started seeing things

happening here and it wasn't positive after Cody leave leaving the the kind of the story shifted for that company a founder's leaving yeah the other that there's there's and there's issues internally cm punk is there he's having problems you know it was it was a decline from that moment sure that's optic scope and listen wb is in that battle they know yeah the financially they're they're the juggernaut here they're they're the leading number one again it goes back to what we talk about perception right perception is king yeah yeah yeah uh one

I'll throw out there. I'll throw, uh, I'll throw Ricky Starks out there from the AW side to WWE. He's a Cody guy. I'm pretty sure he's a free agent coming up. I could be wrong on that. If I'm wrong on that, then screw me even mentioning that, but I'm pretty sure he is and him making a job. I'd be interested to see what he could do in the WWE system. It really comes out to you. Like, do you want to become a very, very wealthy TV star? You go to WWE. Do you want to be a professional wrestler and on TV and still become wealthy? Still make money, but you know, you got a thing. about the longevity of your career yeah i need to make the most money that i can today to secure

my my my my remainder of my half my life you know if i'm 27 years old and you know i'm i'm mjf and i'm a big star on a tv you know it's a little bit easier for me to say like okay you know what i can stay here for a little bit more build my craft make some more money and then i'll jump over there and i'll get even more money but if you're you know ricky where you're like on that on that verge where it really doesn't matter as far as your star potential goes you go to wwee and make thrown number half a million a year for the next you know five six seven years uh and build that wealth and and maybe get a braise and make some more money uh i would go that route you know well and if twenty twenty three shows anything you can break out whenever look at la night breaking out

as he's entering you know 40 years old and what about people saying his career was done right he was finished. He went to, he went to NXT, uh, he went to the manager call up. He got the manager call up, which was insane. And whoever got, I don't even, I don't know who decided like, okay, this is insane that we're doing this to this guy. And now he's one of the top stars in that company. Yep. It just happens sometimes. And a guy in his 40s, you know, in a guy in his 40s, would he have been better off going to AW and being, you know, in that middle of that card or staying in, and impact? No.

He made the right call. So I think it depends on the individual, but I think we're going to see some people. This may be the year that we start seeing some jump over from the AEW side over. Especially as we get into year five here for AW. Andrew, this is great stuff, man. Tell everyone where they can find you. Twitter at Andrew Zerian.

I do a long list of shows. I do the Matman podcast every Friday. Catch me on other things. I'm everywhere. I do my appearances on everybody's shows, but Twitter's the best place, Andrew Zerian on Twitter. I'm very appreciative. You hopped on strictly business with us here, and I want you guys to hop on with us as well. Advertise witheric.com is your place to go to get your business, get your product out in front of thousands of listeners and viewers every single week.

The 83 weeks podcast feed is one of the biggest podcast feeds in the world for professional wrestling, and we'd love for you to get your product out in front of it. we have a lot of exciting things planned for 2024 i can't believe we're already here at the new year but i want to wish everyone a happy and healthy holiday season i hope everything's been going well eric's having a great time down in clear water right now and i hope all of you guys spend your holidays with your loved ones and enjoy and ring things in style i know andrews erie and well he's never had a problem doing that so uh buddy thank you so much for having on i'm looking forward to seeing me soon anytime dude this has been strictly business we will see you

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