83 Weeks with Eric Bischoff - Strictly Business with Eric Bischoff #26: AEW TV Deal, Brandon Tolle on Wrestling Trading Cards

Episode Date: May 12, 2023

In this week's edition of "Strictly Business," Eric Bischoff and Jon Alba talk about the rumors of AEW's new TV deal with Warner Bros. Discovery, plus, welcome in Ad Free Shows' Brandon Tolle to talk the business of wrestling trading cards! Special thanks to this week's sponsors! Empiraa- Sign up now and receive free onboarding, your first 14 days for free, and 24/7 support. Get ahead of the game and save 20% on your subscription by using the code 'wrestlebiz' at checkout. Launch your business plan faster and with less effort than ever before. Visit www.empiraa.com/eric today and start your journey to success! Fite+- Fite+ is the ultimate digital platform for live sports and entertainment, and they are now offering a free 7-day trial at TryFite.com FOLLOW ALL OF OUR SOCIAL MEDIA at https://83weekslinks.com/ Stop throwing your money on rent! Get into a house with NO MONEY DOWN and roughly the same monthly payment at SaveWithConrad.com On AdFreeShows.com, you get early, ad-free access to more than a dozen of your favorite wrestling podcasts, starting at just $9! And now, you can enjoy the first week...completely FREE! Sign up for a free trial - and get a taste of what Ad Free Shows is all about. Start your free trial today at AdFreeShows.com If your business targets 25-54 year old men, there's no better place to advertise than right here with us on Strictly Business. You've heard us do ads for some of the same companies for years...why? Because it works! And with our super targeted audience, there's very little waste. Go to AdvertiseWithEric.com now and find out more about advertising with Strictly Business. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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And you don't need perfect credit or money out of your pocket to do this, but check this out. No house payments for two months. It's savewithconrad.com. What's going on, everyone on, everyone, it's time for another edition of Strictly Business with Eric Bischoff, presented to you by the At Free Shows Network and the Podcasts Network. as well i am john alba joined as i am every single week by mr eric bischoff eric how are you my friend i'm doing well john but uh before we go and i don't even know if you are aware of this yet but uh want to send out a send up prayers and thoughts and and and sincere

pain for the family of josh odom his his wife two kids Josh Hottom was a part of the ad-free show's family first and then became a part of the ad-free show's team. I worked with Josh as recently as two days ago on a special edition here with Cassio. And shocking, shocking news this morning. It's devastating. I can only imagine the pain that Josh's wife is feeling in children. So young, it died into sleep, just really sad.

thoughts thoughts with his family my heart was broken this morning when i found out uh the news josh was my right-hand man for several of my projects here with the aFS and podcast heat team josh and i would talk three to four times a day on the phone and um he was the heartbeat behind getting the hardy podcast launched the lives of wrestling launched and many of the afs projects and um when i heard this morning my my heart just dropped i just i i couldn't believe it eric and um my sincere condolences go out to carla and the family and i think you can attest to this as well there wasn't a member of our team that worked harder than josh odom now he not only extremely talented but an extremely talented professional yeah um and we will miss them dearly i i will miss him dearly and i'm glad

that you got a chance to record with him the other day and you got to have that. It's just heartbreaking. So our thoughts go out to him and if there's anything else that we can share, I promise you guys we will share that information with you on the ad free show's socials and our personal socials as well. But our hearts and love go out to the Odom family and we'll miss you, Josh. No doubt about that. It's just a tragedy.

But I'm glad that you and I get to chat here. Eric, it's always good way to try to talk through these sorts of things and get your mind distracted. We've got a great episode of Strictly Business Here Plan today. We've got special guest, Brandon Toll, who has Top of the Card Show on Ad Free Shows. We're going to bring him in in just a few minutes. We are live on the Ad Free Shows Network now. We've just got tons of top guys and top gals joining us here. We got Rosie saying, hey, Josh Fields says, hello, everyone on this solemn day.

Love you all. Brian says, Odom, was so cool. Rest and peace. Amy adds in so, so sad as well. And, you know, Eric, I don't think we take enough time in our society to tell each other how much we appreciate each other and we love each other and respect each other. So I know from the bottom of my heart, my friend, that I have the utmost respect for you and appreciate you every single day. I genuinely do. And I'm grateful to get to do this show with you every single.

Well, likewise. Likewise. Likewise. Thank you, Joe. Absolutely. But before we get into our meat and bones with Brandon in just a little bit here, I, I, I, had to tee this up to you, Eric, the rumor and innuendo going around, according to multiple outlets, the wrestling observer, fightful, and among the sheets, is that we're going to have a pretty big week for A.W. in the next five days or so, the Warner Brothers Discovery up fronts are

coming up. They're going to have big presentations. And the rumor is that A.W. has locked in a long-term deal with Warner Brothers discovery for a significant pay increase. Some of the numbers being floated around out there, perhaps upwards of a billion dollars over five years. I'd love to know, since you love making predictions here on Strictly Business, if you could open up that crystal ball, any insight on what we can expect on AW's next television contract if you were on that side of the business. Oh, I have no idea.

I can't even guess because being able to at least have a decent guess would require some inside information, you know, what, what's the strategy? What is, what is Discovery Warner's strategy going forward? How does AEW fit into that strategy? Um, just too much we don't know. Here, here's what I do know. I know it's a really great thing. I know Tony should be proud. The entire team at AEW should be grateful and proud. And the roster, anybody that's, you know, on that list, on that team should be grateful and proud and enjoy the, the, the, the moment, the opportunity that it provides, because if it's true, regardless of the money, we won't know what the money is unless they public come out and say, and I don't think that

they will. Unlike WW, it's a publicly held company. They don't have any choice. They have to disclose these days. But with AEW and Tony Con, it's a privately held company. They don't have to disclose it if they choose not to. And I would imagine they will, so I'm not sure we'll ever really know what the money's worth, but it doesn't matter. What matters is that AEW has got a strong firm, long-term foothold with a leading cable outlet and that provides nothing but opportunity. So congratulations to Tony and the team

and the roster because at the end of the day, man, it's all about who turns in, who turns in to see who, who tunes in to see who is what I'm trying to say. And that's all about the talent. It's remarkable. We haven't seen another company approach anything like this since WCW went out of business where a big television contract like

this, which if you, regardless of whether you believe the $1 billion number or not, I think we can both agree that given that AW is going to have three shows on the Turner networks plus all the additional content, it's going to be a significant increase from what the reported $45 million is right now. And that's $45 million for one show. I understand. There's additional money for the Rampage show. and now there's going to be additional money.

So this is, whatever the number is, it apparently is an aggregate. Well, but what I'm saying is that I think regardless of how you look at it, it's a huge success story for the industry to have another player making sizable television money at the end of the day. It's healthy for all the talent. It's healthy for the people in higher ups. And it's healthy for fans more than anything else. And like, I know that you've been critical of AW story. telling. I think we all have things that we can nitpick. But at the end of the day, man, we should be rooting for this business to be healthier day in and day out. And another player on

TV certainly adds to that. What do you think something like this does for the industry? I don't think it does anything for the industry. I don't have the perspective that you do. I think AEW is in a position it's in and is benefiting from the health of the industry, as opposed to creating health in the industry. Certainly, without question, John, this is good for the talent. It's excellent for the talent. It's great for fans because they have something else to watch. It's certainly good for the AEW organization.

There's no question about that. I'm not denying that. But to suggest more broadly that it affects the global business in a beneficial way, I don't think it's changing global business. I think AEW is taking advantage. of the global business and it's a subtle difference but it's a difference let me ask why do you think that in particular because a ewe isn't contributing there they're a w is taking advantage of the success of a wwee for example it is because there is this company called wwee that is worth nine

billion dollars that makes executives of the industry go, hmm, we might not be able to be worth $9 million, but we could be worth a lot because the market is here. WWE has established the worldwide market for this product, more than anybody else. And AEW is now in a position to take advantage of that. Look at it this way. If WWE would have been in a tank four years ago and would have been flatlining and not selling out arenas and just stumbling through paper views,

do you think Turner would have jumped on to AEW? I don't. I think because WWE was so hot that executives at Turner looked at the industry as a whole and the opportunity that Tony Kahn was bringing to the table and decided to take the risk. I don't think they would have taken that risk in a deteriorated

WWE back in 2019. I think there's merit to all that, but also on a pushback, why wouldn't other wrestling organizations than be benefiting from that in the same way? What do you mean? Like, why wouldn't we be looking at MLW and impact as getting larger TV deal?

I'm not saying they're going to get an AW-sized TV deal, but why wouldn't we be seeing them getting much, much more substantial television contracts than they are because they barely exist beyond an internet audience they're just not a draw look tony con had one unique advantage that m lw doesn't have or anybody else got a hundred million dollars he's got an unlimited budget he's not accountable it's a really really really well-funded hobby and that's not a negative that's not being derisive. It just is what it is. This is not a do or die situation for Tony Khan. This is his passion. This is something that he's wanted to do for a long time. And he has

access to billions of dollars to play on that team and own a team. That's what this is. And that's, like I said, there's nothing wrong with that. But Corpauer doesn't have that. court power can't come to the table with the resources to convince a tv network to roll those dice neither does anybody else that's the one advantage tony con had is he had the resources and the desire and the passion a lot of the chatter going around this potential new deal has been that max the streaming service formerly hbo max would have some sort of involvement in it and And we've heard reports the past week that Warner Bros. Discovery wants AW programming, for the most part, exclusively on its platforms. And Josh brings up the point, he says, I think they'd want to be on Max.

If the money is right, it'd be interesting to see what that would look like for them. What do you think streaming content for a company like AW would look like on a Max platform? Where would you utilize a streaming platform when you have guaranteed TV already? you know, I don't know. I haven't given that any thought for obvious reasons because I haven't been presented. And I'm giving you the tools to the. No, but again, and I appreciate that. And this is fun to kind of think about, you know, what if.

But the truth is to keep it serious and keep it real and not slip into the dirt sheet zone, I'd have to really know a lot more. Let me tell you what I wouldn't do. Now, if, if HBO Max is going to repurpose content, meaning if they're going to find a way to creatively utilize dynamite or rampage or whatever the Saturday shows, presumably Saturday show is going to be, then I think that's great because now you're just repurposing content. You're not trying to create new content.

To create yet another show, this makes three for AEW right now, which I think they're in way over their head, by the way. I think eventually downstream, this is going to prove to be a real challenge for EEW, just like it was for WW, it's certainly like it was for me. Too much, and I've said this from day one, this is not new. Deluding your brand and diluting your core story with ancillary programming, while financially viable and exciting, eventually comes back to bite you in the ass because you're just diluting your own product and eventually

diluted to the point where no one feels like they have to watch anything. I don't have to watch Dynamite because I can watch Rampage. I don't have to watch Rampage because I can watch Saturday night. I don't have to watch Saturday night because I can watch Max. I don't have to watch any of it because I can get it on my computer. So the more content you have, unless it's really, really unique to each other, the chances of diluting your core product and your audience, is significant. And so far, AEW hasn't. And by the way, again, not a rip, just an honest observation.

It's a new company. I wouldn't expect a new company to have the infrastructure and the sophisticated staff and operations of a WWE, for example. This company's four years old. It's still going through growing pains. Clearly, we've seen it a lot in the last 12 months. in every way, shape, or form. It manifests behind the scenes, on camera, wherever.

They're going through growing pains to be expected. It would be unusual. It would be bizarre if that wasn't the case. But while they're going through these growing pain, I shut it right the first time, as they're growing through these growing pains, to dump yet another show on a Saturday night, though, less when at least common sense,

suggests that there's not a lot of 18 to 49 year olds hanging out watching TV on a Saturday night. At least there wasn't when I was in that demo, particularly on the 18 to 35 spectrum of that demo, is going to be a challenge. But in the meantime, what a vote of confidence, back up the Briggs truck, let's have some champagne, and let's embrace the opportunity. But let's also know that it's going to come with the cost. I would just love to know David Zazlov's psyche and his way of approach as all of these different rights negotiations are coming up. Tony has said from the start that Warner Bros. Discovery, since the merger happened, has been in AEW's corner. And I think there were a lot of people who were like, well, I guess we'll see.

And it seems like this will be quite the vote of confidence. And we'll have to look at to this at another date and maybe bring Richard Deich back. on at some point. But man, if Turner and Warner Brothers parts ways with the NBA, which is like the all-star property on Warner Brothers Discovery Networks, I'm curious what that does for how AEW is positioned as a property and financially what that could mean as well, because there are a lot of rumors right now that the NBA could depart Turner and Warner Brothers. And I don't even know what that world looks like because the NBA is such a gargantuan entity in this media rights conversation. Yeah. And, you know, as what I, as what a lot of people like to know what's going on inside

of the mind that David Zazloff right now, thousands and thousands of them, thousands of them whose jobs are on the line every single day because of some of the decisions that are have been made and will be made in the future. But, you know, it's interesting because last night before I even heard any of this news i was out to dinner with miss b and we were in a hotel restaurant here in town and they had the NBA game on t-and-tie and i was thinking to myself well you know this is going to you know it's going to put a dent in in dynamite's numbers but to be expected but then i thought wait a minute if i'm if i'm turner i between tbs and t-t i own 18 you're getting both of them right yeah so that could be the strategy too everybody's looking at that many people are

looking at this as an either or or i don't think it's either or i don't think you know anybody sat in a room well we're either going to sign on the nba or we're going to take on ae w i don't think that was the case but i do believe that there was probably somebody in that room that made the observation that wait a minute even when we've got nb a head-to-head against AEW and we own both properties from an advertising point of view. Fuck, that's awesome. Who's going to compete with that?

And they could, you know, Warner Zazov could be looking at at the 18 to 49 during the NBA season as an adjunct to the success that they get from NBA. So they may continue that NBA relationship or they may completely abandon it and look for some other sports-ish type content.

Look, going back a long time, ago, months and months ago, when it was first announced that they were going to do the slap fest, slap fight, slap fight gimmick, you and I talked about it. I said, this is a vote of confidence to AEW because Turner is trying to figure out a way to program around it, meaning they're creating content to use as a lead out. Anytime you have a network working to create content to build around you. That is a vote of confidence. They're looking at you as an anchor tenant, by the way. If TBS was a shopping mall, you're looking at AEW as maybe not on Macy's, but the next best thing. And then they're going to put in a gap,

and then they're going to put in a foot locker, and then they're going to put in whatever, and they're going to build a little mall around you. That was the, that was an indication early on to me that that a ewe and i said it on the show multiple times aews going to get another deal there's no question about that in my mind um wasn't sure about price increases or any of that and i'm still not and i don't think any of us will truly ever know it'll all be speculation and dave melts are bullshit but nonetheless it doesn't matter it's a great thing did you see dana white's comments that claimed he claimed that power slaps social media metrics are number one in all of sports.

And he said, quote, if you take the NFL, the NBA, the NHL, Formula One, and WWE and added them all together, Power Slap did better social media metrics than them. And you know something about that? Eric just screams bullshit to me. Your face right now, I got to go solo on you. what do i know i don't i don't look at the same data that dana white does i don't think anyone has access to that data i can tell you maybe there's you know here's a deal you know when people say quoting numbers like that or referencing numbers like that without providing them and showing them

to you it's one of the more often i'm not accusing dana white of this but more often than not when i hear shit like this and it's usually politics i mean it's the most obvious consistent and in-your-face distortion of facts and figures and you'll find anywhere in anything is in politics. They'll find a way to spin any disaster into a statistical win. It's bizarre. But, you know, it just reminds me that old saying. Liars use numbers and numbers can lie. So there may be some metrics that says, yeah, but last week at 3 o'clock in the morning,

between 3 a.m. and 3.17 a.m. more people watch slash. that fight on social media than any other sport now that that data point may be actually true but within the context of the real picture it's laughable again not suggesting that's the case but that's typically how this shit ends up in the ether right i thought it was a bold claim nonetheless but hey maybe he's got a way to track his numbers i could tell you one way to track your numbers, and that's with our pals over at Empira, because Impera wants to help you launch your business plan faster and with less effort than ever before. You see that little tagline right there? That's not a gimmick. That is reality. They're hooking you up with 14 days for free and 20%

off your subscription, which is already like two cups of coffee a month, by the way. Empira.com, E-M-P-I-A-A-A-D-com, forward slash Eric, and use in our code wrestle biz, W-R-E-S-T-L-E-B-I-Z. Eric Bischoff, I know you are Team Impera through and through. What is your absolute favorite part about Impera and its business efforts in helping you stay out of the weeds of the business and make sure that you're looking at things from a much more macro stem? Well, the real reason I think so highly of Empira is because it helps with one of my fatal

flaws. I'm really good at a number of things. Exceptional at some, but really good at a number. So humble. No, I'm not. And I have every reason not to be. I'm proud of that. But it doesn't mean I'm good at everything. And one of the things I'm really not good at is staying organized. I actually suck at it. I have a real problem focusing on details. Partly because I just lack discipline in that regard, and I work on that every day, partly because it's my nature. As an entrepreneur, oftentimes you're thinking, what if, what if, what if, how can I do this? How can I do that? And that's a wonderful thing. I've, you know, I live in a big, beautiful home that I've dreamt about having almost my whole life.

I've been able to provide my family with amazing things and will continue to do so. But it's been more difficult than it needed to be at times. And there's been times when I've jeopardized. a lot of the things that I have right now because I just wasn't paying attention to the details. And Empira helps an entrepreneur like me pay attention, easily pay attention, more easily pay attention, to the little details that makes any business work,

whether you're a one-man band like I am, or whether you're a partnership, or whether you've got four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, or maybe a hundred people working for you. Paying attention to the details is important to every single one of them. And the details are your business unit. your segments or as they talk about at impera your pillars what are the things that move your

business forward those are your pillars and being able to identify them in advance have a dashboard that allows you to track your progress so you can see red flags way before anybody else throws them because once somebody else throws a red flag it's too late but if you can see that red flag coming and you can adjust you're ahead of the game in your way ahead of your competition that's what i like about umpira it's a tool that allows you to work your plan and communicate your work. Imperial helps you stay focused on your long-term goals and objectives

while keeping you motivated and driven and everything is tangible. It's an easy to navigate dashboard that helps you hold yourself and all of your employees accountable. We are such big fans of Impera here on Strictly Business and we want to help you out. Sign up now. Receive free onboarding and their customer support is outstanding.

Is it not, Eric? hold on john i lost you i can tell that you're talking to me but i lost your audio do you hear me so hold on oh no trying to rectify this oh no we've lost what happened i hope you go john hear me i'm i'm here i'm right here on your end i'm good i'm good but i can't hear you anymore let's let's see maybe maybe we're going to have to sit through here sit through this i can't read lips what did i think you guys don't hear me i didn't do anything uh adam says they can hear both of us okay well you guys can hear both of us that's wonderful why can't i hear anything let me go into well you know imper a series talking to me what the fuck is

going on here? Well, Impera, I don't know if they can help you with. Now I got you. Yes, okay, you got me. What the hell was that? I don't know, but maybe Impera can help you figure out what it is, Eric, because if you go into their dashboard, they will help hold you accountable for everything that's gone wrong.

What are you blaming it on me for? Could have been on your end. I don't even know what happened. I don't think it was on my end. They can all hear me. So, but we're happy to have you back. Impira.com forward slash Eric Code, wrestlebiz, W-R-E-S-T-L-E-B-I-Z, hook up with Empira now for fantastic customer support, 14 days free, and 20% off your subscription.

And we thank Empira for teaming up with us here at Strictly Business. Fight Plus is the ultimate digital platform for live sports and entertainment, and they're now offering a free seven-day trial at tryfight.com. Fight Plus is packed with a premium live event schedule over 1,000 hours of live action every year and a library of more than 4,000 hours on demand, plus exclusive content you can't get anywhere else. Fight is a great partner of ours. They support us, so let's support them. Give that free seven-day trial a shot and you'll be a member for life.

That's tryfight.com. T-R-Y-F-I-T-E dot com. Hey guys, Double J. Jeff Jarrett. Need to call a timeout real quick here. I wanted to tell your listeners what I've been telling my world listeners for a while now. It's about all the incredible things happening over on ad-freeshows.com. An all-new edition of The Insiders is here as Conrad welcomes David Zoddy, the man behind so many iconic video packages WWF fans grew up on, including one that left Vince

and tears. You got it. And Conrad, I swear. I walked outside the studio, and Vince was sitting down on the concrete floor, crying hysterically. Just saying thank you. Thank you. I went up to talk, but he says a good job, I want to see it. 15 minutes later in the stairwell, Vince is still sitting down in a difference by now.

Crying saying thank you. Thank you. Jim Johnston created the soundtrack for generations of WWE fans with some of the most iconic themes in history. Jim sits down with Conrad to take us behind some of those classic themes, including The Ultimate Warrior. And then I recorded that. And then just over that, you're just doing... You know, it's so simple, but that's what felt like him.

Hey, that's just a small taste of what AdFree shows has waiting for you, including a brand new perk, getting to join in on the live recordings of the shows with four levels to choose from, see for yourself. while ad-free shows is the best value in wrestling today. Sign up now at at-freeshows.com. That's right, sign up today at at-freeshows.com. Now, Eric, our friends at Empira, of course, they helped bring us a fantastic little bit that we just gave you.

But we are bringing in our friend here, Brandon Toll, who is a member of the ad-free shows family. He's a host of Top of the Card here on Ad-Free Show. shows that you can find a couple times a month on ad free shows.com and we are so grateful to have you here my friend on strictly business thanks for hopping on i hope you've enjoyed the discourse so far here today it's been fun listening along guys thank you both so much for having me i greatly appreciate it can you hear him eric can you hear me one two three eric oh my goodness we've lost eric no i'm just messing with you

You jerk. Welcome to strictly business where we take things very seriously, Brandon. But seriously, man, how are you? Doing good. Just living life. Things are good. Just having a lot of laughs, you know? Not much boy could say.

Things are great. The rumor and innuendo is that you once upon a time chauffeur to Eric Bischoff somewhere. Is that true? Yeah. Last November. We were in Georgia. for a show so is that no number already god it just seemed like it was a couple months it just seems like a month ago or two just wow yeah so uh from nalana to um i forget where exactly

it was like a two hour car ride so it was you and me and um garrett and uh matt taven actually yeah so on the ride both ways so there you go it was a lot of fun so uh branda why don't you tell everyone who's tuning in and maybe being familiarized with you for the first time a little bit about your background and what top of the card is? Sure. Refere Brantel, I was with Impact for five years. I evolved wrestling for 10 years before that. When I'm not in the ring, I actually work at a sports card shop here in suburban St. Louis.

Top of the card is pretty much dedicated to anything and everything wrestling trading card related. There has been a big boom within the wrestling trading card hobby over the past two years-ish, maybe starting a little before that. So I'm a collector, collected on and off since I was a kid through high school and, you know, more recent the past years. But the collectibles industry as a whole, especially in trading cards, really started to take off across all sports back in 2019. And the pandemic was just like throwing a gallon of gasoline on a roaring fire. So the wrestling card industry or niche part of the hobby has is right behind it. So top of the card, we're going to go over how we got to where we are now.

We're going to take a look at, you know, what's going on. within the hobby now for anybody that may be a lapse collector current collector or if you're looking to collect for the first time and go over anything and everything over time that will cover you know the collecting journey i guess would be the best way to put it how about if i want to sell the room full of stuff i have in boxes in my next room and i don't know what it's worth when i call you it's for trading cards there's a way to go about it i mean i'm more than happy to look at it for you but yeah there's you know valuation and stuff like that is actually you probably one of the most frequent questions that I get asked.

So that's actually going to be coming up probably within the next, probably one of my next couple of videos is. And I think I have the title for, what is it worth? And I'm going to go through that whole process because. That'll be cool. I'll be checking in out. So yeah,

I know one of that someone had brought it up to me last week that there was actually a WCW set of cards. I think it was 98 that there's an entire autograph set that goes with it. Yeah, Sonny Ono has that, I think. I think I saw that on Sonny Ono, Sunni Ono's post. I bring it up because I've got a plastic case of original WWE cards and I've got the plates that were used to produce the card. Oh, okay.

I have that in a box. Actually, it's in Huntsville. And I haven't autographed him yet or done anything with them yet because I wanted to keep them pristine at this point. But I'll be curious to see what those are worth. Yeah, and that's something that especially this printing plates are basically, I like to call their 101 because they're one of a kind. I mean, those were used to make the card.

So I could say out the top of my head, autograph would definitely, will definitely carry more of a premium over than just the printing plates themselves. And then there's a couple more steps behind that. There's a card grading that I'm going to go into in a future video as well that will definitely add a lot of value. So the genesis of all of this to kind of backtrack for a hot second.

It started in baseball, actually. The hedge funds on Wall Street. And it was sometime in the fall of 2019, if I'm not mistaken, they actually started buying some vintage graded baseball cards, like your mantles, those 52 Bowman's, your mid-50s, Bowman's, that they were adding as part of their investment portfolio because when you looked at it, the rate of return that those graded cards were getting an appreciation over time was so good that and it took out a lot of the ups and downs that the market has been seeing over in recent years. So that was really kind of a legitimacy of in terms of sports cards as an actual investment vehicle as a whole. Within wrestling, we just hit a point to where I think we're going to start trekking some new ground. 2022, WW Prism, Panini, America. They have got the WWE license for three years, so 22, 23, 24. The Rock's one of one, finite black 101.

It was professionally graded. We went up on the auction block about three weeks ago. I think it'll be three weeks ago tomorrow. And it's set an all-time record. It went for $154,000. So I think we're seeing a new, we're heading into some new territory in terms of wrestling cards as an increased investment vehicle. So it's a good. From your mouth to God's ears.

Hopefully. So we're starting to trek some new ground with it. You know, I'll, I'll throw it out here. I actually just did an interview that'll be dropping. Hopefully, I'm hoping in the next week or so on the ad free Patreon. It's with the head of product development over the WWE and the UFC license. His name is Jared Kincer. He's actually a wrestling fan.

He's actually a top guy. So I sat down, had a chance to sit down with him and talk, you know, talk about both the licenses, but really kind of dig into some areas that people don't really get a chance to ask questions about and learn a little bit about it so but yeah it's it's it's now being seen as a as a real investment vehicle and that goes all the way back to the first cards that were created domestically here in the states in 1982 who did that uh it was actually a small little group actually um mankato minnesota actually um it was the wrestling all stars series a um it was not a it was not a set that you could like buy in like a supermarket at the time he actually had to send it off mail

order and they actually put the ads inside the wrestling magazines back at the time so who is who are some of the cars uh so uh rick flair hulkogan andre the giant uh bach winkle harley race fabulous mulla it was a set of 32 in total so and no wonder i wonder i have to wonder what year was this nineteen eighty two so they wouldn't have worked with wwe because bachwickle wasn't a part of W. Hogan was. I'm wondering how that company got the rights

because that's kind of a disparate group of characters. They're not connected, really, other than the fact that there were stars, but they didn't work for one organization. Yeah, I mean, with them being in the wrestling magazines, my assumption with it is probably

that they went straight to the photographers and got, you know, photo rights for the, uh, for the pictures. They're, their basic like almost border they're like eight by 10 like basically it's literally from like

chest up shots it's not action shots or anything from any like events or venue so my guess is that they probably got the license rights to like those individual photos um and then we're able to generate them out because it's a very generic design actually um i have the andro one hold on i'll show you let me grab it real quick i'm like blown away already here so you know this is the i'm blown away by that badass Ferrari like You've got, too. Oh, it was a Christmas gift about a year ago from my wife. It's comfortable.

I could sit in this thing for days. So, but this is what the design looks like. And this is the Andre from the 82. I got it graded for my collection. So I'm going to start working on getting the rest of them. But that very basic generic design with it. So I did a little bit of a deep dive on it. There's only about, I think we think between 12 to 1,300 sets of these.

I've been looking at trying to make the investment on the full set, value on the full set sealed. It's about $8,000 to $10,000 right now. Wow. And that was before copyright and trademark laws were loose back then. WWB hadn't matured and become as sophisticated as they are today in protecting their trademark. So I can see now how, you know, somebody could have gone to a magazine and said, hey, let me license your photographs. You couldn't pull that off today.

You'd get shot down in a heartbeat. today as far as taking those images of a Hulk Hogan or Andre the Giant and republishing them for profit, even though they came from a magazine. Because ultimately, WW or AEW or whomever owns that trademark. Yeah, it's definitely a whole different world now, especially because everyone's so locked down and wanted to protect their IP and protect all their trademarks and everything like that. And that wasn't the case. And that really didn't become the case.

It really didn't get real significant. until the mid-90s. Yeah, and it's been kind of with wrestling cards, there was really kind of, it's kind of, I don't want to say it was necessarily underground, but there was a murmur, like I said, that WCW set that has, it's like a 20-card autograph set that I know a couple of people

are almost, I know a couple of them have the entire autograph set, but I mean, WCW had cards, had some releases in the late 90s there. WB's same as well. And it just kind of, just kind of stayed the course and it had a, you know, a dedicated base all the way up.

But, you know, the Panini taken over in Panini having their reach, especially within their football licenses and stuff. Because when you look at the grand scheme of sports, it's basically basketball and football one in one A. Their neck and neck and Panini owns both the license rights to that. Baseball is a third just with a bigger, bigger following, I guess I would say. And then wrestling there's been. Where does hockey land on that spectrum? Hockey is, I would say hockey is probably right around. Well, it's, there's probably bigger following the wrestling.

Upper Deck has had the license rights to the NHL forever. And actually AEW is with Upper Deck. So they have that trading card releases with Upper Deck and their licensing. So, but it's obviously bigger in Canada than here in the States, unless you're in those hockey towns. Like I am here in St. Louis, like we have a, you know, a big hockey following when it comes to hockey cards. You just got to be in those areas for it. But it's growing, same with soccer as well. Brandon, let me ask you this, more of a psychological question, if you will, but what is it about collecting trading cards that you think people find to be so comforting and enough to make a hobby, not just wrestling per se, like, I have thousands and thousands of sports trading cards right over there.

And to me, they're just kind of pieces of product. And at some point, I will give them to someone. But I know for so many fans out there, it's so very, valuable of a commodity what is it about that do you think people connect with the a few different things one i think there's a nostalgia factor i think the ability to reminisce and look back and i and i think that's why the for wrestling cards specifically when you get into the vintage or even into the late 90s sets there there's that reminiscing you know whether it's the wcw set uh with all those autographs especially with uh the town that's no longer with us uh being able to just look back can remember, fondly remember those good times. I also think there's some ownership in it,

and I think that applies to more of the modern stuff that we're seeing now. The modern stuff we're seeing now contains a lot of either ring used or event used or ring-worn, whether it's canvases, turn buckles, pieces of gear. I think there's ownership in that. And I think it also plays into your fandom. I know multiple people that collect that are like to call Define a Super collectors where they collect, uh, you know, their base is one specific wrestler, uh, whereas some people will just collect across the board. You know, me personally, I kind of dabble

into both. I am starting into my vintage collection and I'm going back and seeing stuff. And then I'm also looking at the modern stuff. But for the modern stuff, I'm going for the guys that I grew up with, whether it's autographs of like Hulk Hogan or, you know, Stone Cold Sea Boston Undertaker. There is a big market, uh, for a lot of the legend names, um, within the wrestling industry. So I think it can parallel on a couple of different avenues in terms of the from the ownership aspect. You said there's a big market. What kind of money are we talking? Well, it just depends on who it is. There's a lot of things that can go into it. With cards we have nowadays where like with the Andre card, there was just one that came out with it. You have what's

called parallel sets where there's different numberings and there's different designs or different colors of the card and each of them are limited to a certain number obviously getting more rare to like what mr bishop is saying that 101 like that printing plate and so different designs on the cards whether it may be different pieces of whether it's a canvas or i think they did one uh pinini did one that had a talents jacket like their actual ring worn jacket they bought their ring gear jacket from them and did pieces of it it was only in certain parallels um t-shirt designs i know pinini did a lot of that last year because they're still working on trying to gain access to get more ring gear and stuff like that. That was part of my conversation that I had last week, where they use different

swatches of a t-shirt, you know, or different parts of the t-shirt design in certain parallels. One of them, there was one of Alexa Bliss, and they took the picture of her eyes from the t-shirt and put it on there. It's actually kind of creepy a little bit, but really cool in that aspect. So there's a lot of things that can go into it. And obviously where there's less supply, you know, the price is going to command with it. But there's more to it as well. You have to look at the talent, who it is. Where are they?

I mean, like you talk about ups and downs with the stock market or something. If you're collecting a newer stuff, it's talent that may have rookie cards. So you have to see, you know, their career progression, whether they make it to the main roster or if they're making it into the main event or where are they in a story arc. there's a lot more that goes into it. It's more complicated than basketball, more complicated than baseball because there's more levels to that versus just going through the minor leagues and baseball and then making it up to the majors.

That is all so interesting. Eric, do you remember that feeling that you had when you had your first trading card? I feel like there's a lot of lore around trading cards in general, especially with your generation, you know, baseball trading cards back in the 60s, the 70s. they were a big deal there was a big market for that do you remember the first time you were on a trading card the first time i was on a trading card the first time you were on a trading card no because i've talked to a lot of wrestlers and they're like that was the moment i knew that i made it because someone was willing to print something like that about me yeah no i i i feel

bad because it's never been a big deal to me and i know it's a big deal i know it's important i know what's kind of a sign that yes you're worthy of us putting on a card is it not of confidence and all that but i just went yeah cool i mean that's why i don't have them i mean i said i got a room full of stuff it's all action figures and things like that that people give me when they when they come out but i do have that set of cards that's sitting down in huntsville um but other than i never i never kept any of that stuff i've never really i can tell you think in that respect i i have no memorable memorabilia whatsoever i can tell you i because i can can do a look i have a website that i can list out everything but um you uh your first card so um quantified

as your rookie card um it looks like it was the 1995 wcw main event card set card number 48 so and it looks like actually well i may have to go for these you're actually in the brand new 2023 panini prism wwe set actually look at that eric you've got autographs you got autographs i'm looking at at them right now actually so 20 oh yeah i just i just signed they sent me a bunch of those i just signed uh seven hundred and fifty of those i think wow yeah so there's um there's the nuts where the other market that can that is tapped into especially from the nostalgia standpoint is as you know uh you know w b signs a lot of people to the legends deals or whatever panini can do it on their own but this is something we talked about where you know they they have access to where you know you know

the checklist per se or the number of talent that are signing is is growing and it you know diversity it allows to for mulk to tap into multiple you know multiple people for whoever they might have seen as their favorite talent their favorite wrestler from a nostalgia standpoint um it just it allows to just to grow the to grow the hobby especially as wrestling we are now on you know i i think after the the sale of the uh the rock 101 for i i didn't didn't even anticipate it would go for anything close to that i think the previous highest sale of a wrestling card before that was probably less than half of that like it blew away any expectation so i really think that we uh we got the rocket on our back in terms of the collecting hobby and uh we're off to the races now wow well i'd like to hear

that those royalty checks come in once in a quarter and mrs b and i get to go out and have a sushi dinner down the road looking awesome so where do you see the industry going brandon i'll be very honest with you this is not a side of the industry that i've spent a whole lot of time doing much investment into and it seems like

there's a pretty hot market right now so where are we going with it pinini has the license for the w a license for uh through 2025 uh once it was announced in 2021 that Panini had it. They signed a three-year deal, literally the next week, Tops, which is now owned by Fanatics,

signed WWE for 2025 and beyond. So Panini's got a finite amount of time with it, and I think that's where, especially now that I say the rocket, you know, the rocket ship's taken off, you're going to start seeing, especially once we get more into time and space, especially with these three years for Panini,

anybody that's going to be holding anything of that, you scarcity automatically kicks in because once it goes back to tops any of these licenses that we currently have right now you'll never see unless fanatics decides to buy pinini which there's been rumor of that but there there's things that are standing in the way of that right now at least um but i i think that you know that that we are just it's going to be ever expanding um my hope is that uh with upper deck and a e w obviously hockey is the gravy bread and butter for upper deck. So AEW, I don't want to say it's necessarily taking a back seat, but I mean, we're rating on a release of a product for the AEW license that we should

have got December 30th that we still don't have. So my hope is that, you know, things kind of smooth out and we start getting more of the releases on that. And then as things grow, I mean, you know, we guys are talking about it with the proposed potential new deal for content for AEW with with Warner Bros. Discovery, I think as things grow and as, you know, the broad popularity reach kind of expands with wrestling. And this is something I talked to in my interview last week with the head of the W.E. License in Panini, stuff like Bad Bunny and, you know, all these mainstream people that are coming in and that are stepping inside the ring. As these companies finds way to broaden their overall reach.

I think it's nothing but good for nothing but good for the hobby. They're printing more. They're selling more. It's just, you know, we're now starting to see this real big rocket chip buck swing that we saw in the other sports, probably right around lockdowns in 2020. Things are kind of coming back down to reality because I think we, I don't want to say the bubble burst, but things were getting so expensive. They couldn't really get more expensive without.

Let me jump in here, brother. You're the only person I ever sat down with that talks more than I do. sorry sorry we just like non-stop you apologize for it's great we're 45 minutes into the show and i've said six things this is awesome and you've even made john slow down which is really hard to do it's true let me let me let me play a what if with you brother okay so pretend i'm i'm gonna pretend i'm gonna pretend you're tony con no wait a minute It's a long day

You be Tony Kahn And I'm going to be you Okay Would I come up to you if I was you If you were Tony Are you following me here? Yep, I got you And said, hey, I've got an idea

Why don't we do a special set This is the very first time AEW is played in the UK This is, this is arguably our very first WrestleMania. I can't believe I heard myself say that, but I did. Let's do a special collector's edition celebrating the success we've had at Wembley. And we do a special set of cards and the photography that goes with it that is very UK thematic. it's a special set

well it's going to be a limited edition why wouldn't i do that why wouldn't you do that i would do it truth be told um i absolutely it's a great idea right yeah upper deck actually does stuff as um all the as all the new debuts have happened over the past couple years they do an online um digital like an exclusive that you can actually get made into a physical hard card after a few months. So I wouldn't be surprised if we did see something like that. I, with the, especially with the AEW license, with the lack of releases, and I can say that working, you know, part-time in a card shop as I do, I would love to see more AEW releases.

I mean, if I had an hour to sit down with either whoever is heading up upper deck and the A.W license and or Tony Con or whoever in the organization is handling that, I would love to be able to sit down and say there's better ways to do this in ways to be able to take the brands that he have, especially with something like All Out for the UK and maximize the potential of it, especially seeing, at least from what I'm seeing on my end, as terms of the hobby growing. you said a word there that I was actually going to ask you about digital is there any concern that digital or NFTs or anything like that could end up replacing the market for cards no no no concerns whatsoever about that isn't that interesting how a year ago maybe 18 months ago whatever it was and NFTs were everywhere everybody was jumping in onto the NFT bandwagon and I don't hear dick about it anymore yeah with the issues of cryptocurrency that has existed that that's happened to reel it a lot throughout the course of this year's

crypto's coming back as is the blockchain investment market right now it's starting to come back to life do you see do you see that becoming an issue for physical cars if because crypto's coming back up bitcoin somewhere bouncing around 30 now 27 to 30 thousand it was down to 16 for a while uh it's slowly coming back but if if bitcoin if if crypto starts making it continues it's it's come back slow as it may be you see the nfti think heating up again i think it could but i think that there will never be something that will outright replace being able to hold something physically in your hands i agree i agree with you as cool as the nfts concept is can't pass it or you can pass your phone around a room it's not the same thing smell it feel it

touch it yeah yeah and nfts a lot of times have been linked with cryptocurrency and i think there's a majority of the population that doesn't have really a good knowledge base towards that and so i think if once the education of that expands if it does i think it could open those avenues i know wb is potentially tried to go into that realm but there hasn't been a whole lot of hubbub around it. I think the hub, the lack of hub, I can tell you from personal experience, interestingly enough, I have a business partner who designed a game, a board game for Upper Deck. Oh.

And I have another partner that worked for Upper Deck, in senior management for a long, long time. Okay. Three of us are partners on another project. So I've got a little bit of insight, a little bit of insight into Upper Deck at least. We were, we have been developing a digital, a collectible digital card game. So think monopoly for digital, only the playing cards are all collectible cards. Okay.

And originally, the company we were working with and us, we were gearing all of that game design up for blockchain. Now we're going back to pre-pandemic. We've been working on this project for a couple of years now. and there were there were investors all over the place for blockchain games digital collectible card games and some of them were out are making fortunes like printing money 24 hours a day and then the crypto market crashed and every one of those investors left town and it's just a vacuum now but it's starting to come back slowly but surely do you think or or or do people in your industry think

again i'm asking the same question in a different way what's the timeline when do you when do when do you or better yet what's it going to take for the nfti market to come back is it solely based on the success of crypto and the value of like bitcoin Yeah, I think that's going to have a big part of it because a lot of NFTs, and I can say this because I'm in a group of collectors that we actually have an NFT as part of the buy-in process that's linked to Ethereum. So a lot of the, excuse me, the NFTs are linked to crypto. So I think as that starts to make a rise back, it could.

But there's got to be some kind of a mainstream catalyst to be able to, to really set that off to really, you know, once again, to put more fuel in that rocket ship to get it to take off. And I don't think we're there yet. I think a lot of the issues around cryptocurrency with FTX and, you know, finance and a lot and some of the other issues that have gone on within the crypto space and the potential federal regulations behind it that are being proposed at least. They haven't been enacted, but at least have been proposed, I think can be a real negative towards it. So I think it's going to be a combination of the price. Yeah, when the federal government gets involved in the crypto market,

we're fucked. Yeah, I think it's a combination. Couldn't manage a cat fight. Yeah, I think it's going to be the three. I think it's the price of, you know, Bitcoin, all that starts to go back up. Potential federal regulations that could hinder the delay or elongate the process. And you need something absolutely mainstream. And I'm talking ultra mainstream that would need to be able to really kind of put that

platform up there into the mainstream to be able to really set that all off. Yeah, because the bandwagon phenomenon, you know, something comes out, everybody's talking about it, Gary Vaynerchuk's talking about it. He's, you know, sitting in his house for, you know, 30 days straight, drawn pictures and launching the NFT. I mean, there was a period of time where some really, really credible, reputable people, cutting edge, you know, visionaries were just diving into this space. And everybody, I actually applied for a trademark called Totally Fungible.

Like everything was moving in the non-fungible token area. All you heard was non-fundible. non fungible. I said, fuck that. I'm going to get a trademark that's just totally fungible. I still have it, by the way. But then it's just, shu, evaporated. Like it didn't exist. It's really hard to recreate that kind of, whoa, phenomenon, right? The Gary V. phenomenon. Because we've already experienced it. Yeah, been there, done now. No, thanks. I want something else. Give me another drug. I want another drug. I want something else to get excited about. really hard to recreate it once you've been there.

Yeah, and I think that mainstream, it's going to have to be something, at least kind of blowing this back down to the wrestling industry. It's going to take something outside the wrestling industry that the wrestling industry then will be able to kind of capitalize on because that's kind of what's happened with trading cards now. Here's my prediction. This is going to be so off the wall.

I should probably sign off shortly after saying this because I'm, I will have embarrassed myself. But throughout, technical technological history within the last 35 years internet corn has always led the way it has I mean you left no I'm a from a a business model standpoint believe it or not if you look at the history of the internet business and and the revenue created by it has consistently been on the cutting edge. I know that sounds weird, but it's true.

You look at a lot of the, you know, the streaming services, a lot of the technology, you know, they're always on the cutting edge because it's fucking porn. People aren't going to complain. They're just going to go look for something else. It's not like the television industry or the any other form of entertainment where if you're going to take a big leap with an idea, you know, you run the risk of crashing and burning if it doesn't work, you know, porn. I don't try anything once, make a buck.

And as a result, they've been kind of on the leading edge of a lot of weird technology, technology that emerges in other forms of entertainment. Well, surprisingly enough, actually, there's something going on in the trading card world right now where someone's actually trying to create porn trading cards. There we go. And actually, they're getting sued by Panini because they're using all of Panini's IP that they own and making Bang Bros cards. and it's not bang bros actually that's making them they found that out because they sued them

and they found out in court last week that it wasn't bang bros the company making them so somebody's making them as an independent set with bang bro talent any ip so there you go i'll tell you i was going to sit here and be like maybe that special thing that these digital companies can do is like send bubble gum to each person like they did back in the day and the bubble gum and the baseball train cards and eric's like no no but i i i kid you not you just step And I know that, you know, the subject material, we're talking about porn, which is an awkward thing to talk about in a realistic way. But it is a business. It is a massive business. It is a multi-billion dollar business worldwide.

So take out the nature of the content, look at the product in the business and the revenue that it creates. The other reason why I see this trend taking off is because of the success in the emergence of only fans. Now you've got, you've got individuals. who are building up massive followings generating hundreds of $1,000 a month in some cases, and not in some, in probably many cases, that will soon be able to have their own digital NFTs that they can market to their fan base or their own collectible cars that they can market to their fan base. I actually see this emerging sometime in the next 18 to 24 months.

It'll be weird, but I see it happening. And again, you know, people in that industry you know only fans this is a perfect example you know only fans came along and took look what happened just look at it again it's not like i study the sex trade but if you just step back and look at and culturally in the united states it was playboy right starting in what the 50s 60s whatever it was and then penthouse came along and it got a little more skate and hustler came we all know that story it's been told before and then what what put penthouse and playboy out of business the internet because now you don't have to buy it over the

counter you don't have to be embarrassed you don't have to worry about your wife or your boyfriend or your girlfriend or whatever it is finding it right is you don't have to hide it anymore you can just enjoy it discreetly you know and but that industry the the entire industry was a tough industry controlled by studios certain individuals no difference than any other form of entertainment you know the top five or six people you know control 95% of the business and then OnlyFans comes along because of streaming technology and gives women and I guess men the opportunity now to kind of be their own studio.

That's the kind of evolution that I'm referring to when I talk about the porn industry. And this will lead to individuals being able to have licensing and merchandising deals that they wouldn't get slept and drinks at a local nightclub. We talk about the business of the business of the business here on strictly business all businesses in some situation we're not going to talk about this one anymore no uh brand i'm sitting here thinking to myself i should become an agent for

some of these women yeah i could have an entire industry i can say 10% of what they make off their nfts and their training cards come up with the right people i could be the king of porn trading cards you have VR we got AI i mean everything that's crazy man everything's changing these days brandon this has been awesome man uh tell us a little bit more about top of the card where people can find it anything else you'd like that top of the card uh twice a month right here on the ad free shows platform uh on the patreon first and then over on the ad free shows youtube uh you know you guys check me out my social at referee brain and toll on instagram ref brain and toll on twitter um you know if you guys come give me a follow where i've got the next six months basically planned out

in terms of content that we're going for and actually i want to end it on this uh there is some projects i'm working on behind the scenes uh with the a fs family mr bischoff what do you think about an 83 weeks card set. I'm off for it. I'm off for it. See, that's a perfect idea. That is a perfect idea for everybody that's on the team at AFS. Absolutely do it.

And by the way, I think I'll have to check because I did sign a licensing deal with WWE for trading cards. However, I think it's set to expire soon. So here we go. Okay. All right. Yeah, there's just there's some stuff for more. on behind the scenes that hopefully as we get towards summer and stuff that I will be able

to put a little more with but uh uh I think an 83 weeks card set would definitely uh whether or not we have to whether or not we can actually put a physical IP card with you but there's some other ways that I that I've you know I've got to know to be a cool 83 weeks card as well as the rest of the shows on the network because Dave Silva's artwork is so freaking exceptional what a fun for an episode of you know you pick an episode whatever it is special episode and you've got the artwork that was done to promote it on one side and you've got an image any other because i i think daves daves i told dives silver a long time ago dude you should have a you should have a tabletop book of all of your work your best work and a little

story behind each image and that would be a cool wrestling table top book so maybe you should talk to him about that that's actually an idea i actually have written down my books there's a couple other things I'm oh sure it is like you thought about that before no not at all actually it just I'm just kidding you but I try basically just working with some with the brands we have here in the AFS family to kind of just bring out some new content with it so more to that to come but uh I may have to pick your brain on that Mr. Bishop and kind of kind of get some get some other kind of input from you for that's away brother I'm all yours that's great stuff make sure you check out top of the card right here on ad free shows.com Brandon thank you so much for joining us

man really appreciate it thank you guys for having me of course a reminder guys if you would like to uh join the 83 weeks and strictly business team of course you head on over to advertise with eric dot com you hit eric and i up uh you get your business out in front of thousands and thousands of listeners every single week we are doing it up big here on strictly business just like impira who again you sign up with impura they're going to hook you up and help you get your business in the best position possible. Eric, another great episode in books. We've got a special guest to get Nikki here. Let's say how did Nikki everybody? Hey, Nikki. Well, I think that that does it for us here. Eric, anything else you'd like to add? No, Nikki wants to go for a walk.

I got to go. All right. Well, next week we'll be back talking about all this stuff with the new AW television deal and presumably collision and much more. This has been a lot of fun, Eric. This has been strictly business with Eric Bischoff. We will see you next time.