83 Weeks with Eric Bischoff - Strictly Business with Eric Bischoff #43: WWE Sale Finalizing, CM Punk's Future, and Wrestling Art

Episode Date: September 8, 2023

In this week's edition of "Strictly Business," Eric Bischoff discuss the ramifications of WWE's upcoming sale and merger finalizing within the next week, while also looking at CM Punk's future in wrestling following his AEW release. Plus, Jon is joined by Mel Coleman, who talks about the business of the wrestling art industry! Support Mel's GoFundMe here: https://www.gofundme.com/f/melcolemanart-tip-jar?member=20863237&sharetype=teams&utm_campaign=p_na+share-sheet&utm_medium=copy_link&utm_source=customer Special thanks to this week's sponsors! Manscaped- Get 20% Off and Free Shipping with the code WRESTLEBIZ at Manscaped.com. BlueChew- Try BlueChew FREE when you use our promo code WRESTLEBIZ at checkout--just pay $5 shipping.  FOLLOW ALL OF OUR SOCIAL MEDIA at https://83weekslinks.com/ Stop throwing your money on rent! Get into a house with NO MONEY DOWN and roughly the same monthly payment at SaveWithConrad.com On AdFreeShows.com, you get early, ad-free access to more than a dozen of your favorite wrestling podcasts, starting at just $9! And now, you can enjoy the first week...completely FREE! Sign up for a free trial - and get a taste of what Ad Free Shows is all about. Start your free trial today at AdFreeShows.com If your business targets 25-54 year old men, there's no better place to advertise than right here with us on Strictly Business. You've heard us do ads for some of the same companies for years...why? Because it works! And with our super targeted audience, there's very little waste. Go to AdvertiseWithEric.com now and find out more about advertising with Strictly Business. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Get rid of your credit card debt, get a lower monthly payment, and skip your next two house payments at save withconrad.com. NMLS number 65084, equal housing lender. You don't need perfect credit or money out of your pocket to save thousands with save withconrad.com. Find out how much money you can save right now at save with Conrad.com. How's it going, everyone? It's time for another edition of Strictly Business with Eric Bischoff here on the podcast, Eat and Ad-Free Shows Network. I'm John Alba, and as you know, I'm joined every single week by the man of the hour.

Mr. E.E. Eric Bischoff. Look at those dimples, the way he's looking good, feeling great, hair looks good, life's good, If you're Eric Fishoff right now, I assume. What's going on, my man? Just another day in paradise. Another day in paradise. For me, although for you, I just read this morning, actually, that Bruce Springsteen has canceled a bunch of tours.

That's got to be like an emotional kicking the teeth for you. Well, so in August, I had tickets for the two Philly shows. And I'm, I finish recording strictly business with you. I get the edit done really quickly. and I'm about to head over to Citizens Bank Park in Philadelphia. I leave my door and I get a notification on my phone that the two shows are canceled. And I'm saying, what's going on here? It just said due to illness.

I'm like, okay, that's fine, whatever, you know, hope he gets fine. I went to three shows last week. The Sunday show is the best show I've ever been to, best concert I've ever been to in my entire life. And then I was supposed to go to Baltimore this week and we got the notice that he's got peptic ulcer disease. And I said to myself, Eric Bruce Springsteen and I really are alike because we both deal with acid reflux. So, you know, it's the silver linings you try to look for. But it has been sad.

So I appreciate the sympathy. It's not really sympathy. I just noticed it. I really, you know, I don't get it. It's not like you haven't been to a Bruce Springsteen. I know, I know. Hey, you met Bruce one time, right? Yes, I did.

Yes, I did. In Las Vegas, if I'm not mistaken. Yeah, it was. to hang out backstage with him for a little bit and all that good stuff makes you a cooler man than i for a lot of reasons but it's great to have you here with us on strictly business i know that it has been a crazy crazy week especially dating back to last saturday and then sunday with the a w pay-per-view saturday the firing of cm punk and of course the wwee payback show so much going on in the business of the wrestling business plots the merger between ufc

and WWE under the Endeavor Company is about to go through. Later on on Strictly Business, Eric, we are going to have an interview with Mel Coleman, who's one of the premier artists in the wrestling art side of the industry. And her work has been featured recently on AW, so a lot of cool stuff. But let's start talking about WWUFC, the merger TKO, September 12th, released as we record this, Eric. Endeavor and WWE deal to create TKO Group Holdings.

expected to close September 12th. Upon closed, TKO will list on the New York Stock Exchange and begin public trading. This has been months in the making, Eric, dating back to the first day of WrestleMania. Do you have any comments here on this deal finally coming to fruition and what we may expect in the next few months? You know, I just don't have a crystal ball. I tend to be pretty Nostradamus-like when it comes to professional wrestling and looking into the future. But in this case, I don't really have a feel for it. I'm happy for the people in WWE and probably for people that I don't know in UFC as well. Because having a merger like this, hanging over your head, there's so many things you don't know.

You're not in the loop. That's the kind of information that isn't shared beforehand in terms of. emerging departments and layoffs and things like that. So everybody's sitting around, you know, wondering if they're going to have a job or how they're going to be affected. And that's, it's just not a great way to live, you know, because you're always thinking about it and wondering about it, if you're going to get let go or if your department's going to be let go, whatever.

And I'm happy for everybody to finally have this thing resolved so people can quit worrying about things they don't need to worry about. or if you're on that list of unfortunate individuals who may find themselves being phased out, that you can get on with your life. You can make a plan and as uncomfortable as it may be sometimes, you know, when things like this happen, the old saying, you know, is true, you know, for every door that closes, another one opens. And I'm sure there will be, you know, great opportunities for a lot of the people that are affected if they are by the UFC

WWE merger. So I'm just happy for everybody that it's going to finally be over with. I know you hate the term synergy. I know it's like your band list term. That's like saying hospital on WWE programming. You've got to say local medical facility. We can't say synergy here.

But I'm going to ask about synergy. Do you foresee synergy between UFC and WWE in working together in co-promotion with this merger finally coming to fruition? I don't know about co-promotion. I've always said from day one when UFC first started really making their presence felt on television and on pay-per-view that they're two separate audiences. Of course, there's some crossover.

There's undeniably. But I think that the UFC audience is one audience. I think WWE audience is another audience. And while there may be some subtle and supportive kind of cross-promotion, I don't think it's going to be anything overt. I don't think we're going to be having UFC content shoved down our throat in WWE or vice versa. Of course, they're going to support each other whenever it's possible and organic and it fits. But I don't think on television, we're going to see a lot of co-promotion.

I don't. Could you see coexistence within projects, maybe, for example? I'll point to one in particular, Jean Ross Samp from Fightful reported that Fightful asked about the possibility of WWE wrestlers appearing in EA UFC 5, the video game coming up. and they said that while they didn't have any firm direction on whether or not that would be happening, that they certainly pointed to the possibility that it's something that could happen and that there's even been some discussion, but nothing would be official until a merger was complete. So could you see collaboration for projects like that? Maybe not necessarily on the TV

front. I don't know, but that one, that example you just gave that chunk covered is an interesting proposition because a video game is a fantasy right it's you it's a game and i think there i mean that's interesting to me you know i'm not a video game guy you know i don't spend a lot of time playing video games like none but but if i did i could see it's kind of a fun thought you know it's a little bit like fantasy booking wrestling against ufc and i think there's possibly an appeal for that so sure if it makes sense and i'm guessing there'd be a fair amount of research done by the company that's producing that video game and they would put in some time and effort

to make sure that it's something that the market would be interested in. But just on the surface, my visceral response is, yeah, it's been kind of cool. I think it's interesting because there has been a lot of crossover between UFC and WWE stars. Brock Lesner, Ronda Rousey, Shana Basler, in the MMA world, Matt Riddle.

There is a track record of crossover here. year. So seeing how licensing could be worked into that, it could create a pretty interesting scenario where we see some unique ideas out there. With the merger finally coming to fruition here, could you see any pressure being put on the powers that be now to get these TV rights secured and get all of that stuff out of the way as we're about a year out from those expiring? I don't think any more or any less pressure than already exists or would exist had this merger not even occurred. The TV is

the lifeblood of professional wrestling, certainly from a revenue perspective in WWE. So I think the pressure is already there and I don't think this merger is going to affect the amount of pressure one way or the other. It may affect the strategy. Yeah. Because now

there's leverage in some respects. You've got some pretty powerful players now locking arms in Nick Kahn who is a 800-pound gorilla in his own right in the entertainment and television business and you've got r a manuel who's about maybe a 900 pound gorilla so now you got 1700 pounds of gorilla uh that's sitting at the table across from you negotiating for tv rights so yeah i think the strategy may be different but i don't

think the pressure is i think that's a part of the discourse that has been overlooked how much influence someone like Ari Emanuel could have in the direction of where WWE television rights and licensing rights ultimately go. And I've had a little bit of experience in working with agents and agencies. I was represented by William Morris, which is now Endeavor. I have been represented by CAA for a long time when I was producing television on my own with Jason Hervey. And I have a little bit of understanding of the power of agencies and agents.

Mark Itkin, you want to go back? There's a name you don't hear too often. Mark Itkin was the agent that represented WWE when WWE first did their deal with what was then the UPN network. Mark Itkin was a power player at William Morris. also ended up in litigation with Vince McMahon and the WWE as a result of some of the deals that they did. But when you have really take out the word powerful and include the word influential.

In some ways it means the same thing. But you've got Endeavor, which has got just a tremendous amount of leverage and horsepower because of the talent. that they have on their roster and a lot of television studios or networks you know would love to be in business on a regular basis with some of that talent so the conversations that that studios or networks are going to have with endeavor it's going to be inferred and implied it's not going to be you know nobody's going to be beating anybody over the head but if you're sitting down talking about a television project that you really want to get off the ground

for your network and it involves directors or writers or talent that are represented by endeavor it just changes the dynamic the power dynamic shifts considerably and again when you take somebody successful and influential as nick con has been as obviously still is and are Emmanuel. Just the depth of their relationships alone is very, very significant in this situation. It changes things. It changes conversations. It's different. It's just going to be different. And for WWE and UFC, that's going to matter. It's fascinating because you talk about Nick Con really expanding WWE business overtures across the board in so many different eras. Right now, WDDD is bringing back John Cena in for this tour of India that they're doing.

They're doing a show over there as well that's going to be taped and shown as kind of like a PLE. India is such a fascinating market that I feel like a lot of people in the United States don't really have a huge grasp on. I know you weren't super involved in it, but I remember even when TNA did the whole Rinka King. experiment there. I thought those shows came off really well in terms of environment and vibe. Do you have any insight on the Indian wrestling market and why that's so appealing for an organization like WW? You know, I really don't. I've never experienced, I've never done any business as a talent or or as a producer in India. So I don't have any firsthand business experience there. But it's just a little bit of research I did a couple months ago. I read that

there are approximately 350 million WWE fans in India. Like, there's more WWE fans in India than there are here in the United States. So without question, the potential is there. I just don't have any first-hand or even second-hand experience, really, when it comes to the business side of it and how difficult it is to penetrate the business side of it. But the entrepreneur and Eric Bischoff,

when you hear that. There's 350 million WWE fans. Like what ideas go through your head in terms of being able to tap into that market? What type of content could you produce for an audience of that size? I don't know, you know, time will tell. Let's put it that way.

Time will tell. I just think that is massively untouched. I remember a few years ago when they made Jinder Mahal champion, and everyone kind of assumed it was a way, to try to get into that market where they were going on tour and then they ended up taking the belt off him before they even got to India and he was still in the championship match but he wasn't champion going in there so I found it very fascinating as like yeah well maybe they're not ready to

go all in on that market but man bringing john seen out there Becky Lynch was supposed to go out there but she couldn't get over there because she had a rip in her passport so she wasn't able to get on the tour over there but they are loading it with the big stars did you ever have you ever been to India? Have you ever done? I never have. I really want to. There's a couple of places in the world that I really want to go and visit while I can still move around and enjoy it. And India is one of them. I love going. It's one of the reasons I love Japan. It's one of the reasons why I was excited to go to North Korea. I've never been to Russia, but I really like to go to Russia because I like to experience a completely different culture. In some cases, you know, on completely different governments or, in some cases, dictatorships. I like to know firsthand what that experience is like. And India is such a fascinating, fascinating country with such a diverse amount of cultures.

You know, it's not like there's just one Indian culture. There's such divergent cultures within India and languages. And of course, the food. I love Indian food. It's my, I want to call it a passion, but it's getting close. I just, I love Indian complexity of it, robust spices and things that you just don't find anywhere else. I love that. So for a lot in the history, obviously, in the art, I would love to visit India someday.

Go back in our archive, 83 weeks.com, find our episode with Raj Geary. If you'd like 20 minutes on Indian food, you can find. just discussing that right here on strictly this you and Raj did end up getting together and getting some indian food if i'm not mistaken right we got together in denver a couple months ago six four five six months ago whenever it was and then most recently um where were we were we in denver again yeah for the uh podcast movement uh convention nice um i we got together again for for dinner and a drink and i dig rosh he's a really really smart guy obviously came up with the Indian dating service,

which probably made zero sense to anybody. And he built it up by advertising it on wrestling ink because he owned wrestling ink at the time. And that is even less, you know, it's even more of a square peg in a round hole, if you can imagine it. But, you know, I ended up selling it for, you know, millions of dollars and made a huge amount of money

and had a great deal with success. And he's a young guy. You know, he's very, very young. I think he's only like 43 years old. Go check that episode out in our archives. I love when we have guests here on Strictly Business. and we got another guest coming for you. And just a couple moments here.

Mel Coleman, she's an artist based out of Toronto, and her work has been featured all over AW in recent weeks, and she has a really unique story and has great perspective, Eric, on the business of the wrestling art industry, which I don't think it's... I'm looking forward to hearing that one. I don't think it's something that a lot of people think about necessarily, but have you ever had your interest peaked by,

wrestling art. Oh, of course. You know, Nolan is, is a wrestling artist. And I actually commissioned some work for him for a project that I, that I worked with. There's a few of the Lash Leroux is doing some great stuff. I love Lash. What a wonderful human being. Amazing. Amazing. So, so excited for him. He's got a great story. He's a great guy, an amazingly talented guy as well. But yeah, no, I'm, I'm very much interested. I mean, I think that the popularity of wrestling in general, whether it's WWA, AW, the combination of the two, the indie scene, all of it just represents a strong interest by the audience in all things wrestling. And I think the fact that there are people that are taking advantage, the artists that are finding a way to carve out their niche,

that's exciting to me. I love seeing that kind of thing happen. We've got an interview with her coming up right here. On Strictly Business. The seasons are changing, and fresh ball fall is finally upon us. And you need to be in the festive spirit, right? Light a candle, get some pumpkin spice, and make sure your balls look real nice with the sponsors of today's edition of Strictly Business, Manscape. Nature may clear the leaves of their trees, but you'll need Manscapes help to get you ready

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wrestlebiz. As the leaves fall, make sure you have it all with Manscaped. Hey, hey, it's Conrad Thompson. Here to tell you a little more about what ad-free shows.com is all about. Get early, ad-free access to more than a dozen of your favorite wrestling podcast every single week, starting at just nine bucks. That's less than 20 cents an episode each month. And yes, you can listen to them all directly through Apple Podcasts or your regular podcast apps. How easy is that? Ad-free shows also has thousands of hours worth of bonus content and docu-series like Title Chase, Eric Fires Back, Conversations with Conran and The Insiders. Plus new series like The Book with David Crockett, Monday Mailbags with Mike Keota and

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And hey, when you do, the first week is completely free. and freeshows.com. All right, we're going to step aside from our normal conversation, Eric, because I've got a very special guest with us here on Strictly Business. She is Mel Coleman. She's one of the premier wrestling artists out there right now. It's a very unique side of the business, and that's why I wanted to welcome her in here to the business of the business on Strictly

business. Now, how are you? I'm great. How are you doing? I'm doing great. Eric's stepping aside. So he's going to let me take handles of this chat with you because I think he's just so fired up about everything that's been going on lately, especially in AEW land. And I know we're going to be talking about some of your stuff with AEW here. And I'm very excited to get into that. But you have such a unique perspective on the wrestling industry. Can you tell people a little bit about yourself and what made you want to get into not just art, but wrestling art specifically? Sure. So we'll kind of go back a little bit. A few years ago with the pandemic, I'd lost my job and I wasn't in a very good place, both mentally and with my health. So when AW came around with double or nothing, it kind of sparked

a little something in me. And at the time, I kind of gave up on pro wrestling. So when they had, you know, to the scene, it made me feel excited about pro wrestling again. It also made me excited about possibly creating again. Why wrestling? I think it's just, it's evergreen. They're very over the top. There's something very theatrical. You could do so much with each other's character

and make them a little bit more profound with art. So for me, it was a moment of, revisiting what I loved most and sort of, I guess, a resurgence of who I was or who I am. And it was really nice to kind of bring myself back out of there because it was not a pleasant time. I was not doing well. And for me to get pulled out of that and find myself again and find something that I love so and be so passionate about has been very, very great for me. Isn't it amazing what pro wrestling can provide as an outlet for the creative types, for mental health? Have you found it to be cathartic and therapeutic for you?

100%. I wouldn't be here, and I say that very seriously if it wasn't for them. I know that sounds very heavy, but it's true. I wasn't doing well. And to find an outlet that has given me so much and has given me. me the opportunity to give back in so many different ways, not just for the talent for the company, but for fans as well. And they're getting something out of it. Maybe they're not having a great day and they find a piece that I do and it uplifts them. So for me, it's very important. I take

it very seriously, but still being very cheeky about it. Why is there synergy between pro wrestling and art? I think because it's so. over the top, and I say that with love. It's very much like going to the movies. You know, you pay your ticket, you get something, you get some drama, you get something, maybe a little bit of comedy. There's a little something for everybody. And it's almost like when you do go to the movies, you see those posters. And I draw a lot of inspiration from Drew Struzan, who used to do the very epic movie posters like Indiana Jones and things like that. So if I can provide something, that makes it a little bit more special, maybe to enhance talent or maybe to provide a different outlook on talent. I'm very happy to do that. Have you established relationships with talent through your art? Have they expressed any feedback or appreciation when you present them with this stuff? I do.

I've made a lot of wonderful relationships and friendships over the past couple of years doing this. They're very, very kind. Also, I think they're very appreciative of anybody taking the time to make something of them. And for them to share that with everybody else is something very important to me as well. I think it's just a little, it's hard to explain, but when you do create something of somebody, whether it's a wrestler or perhaps an actor or anything like that, It just gives them more dimension, I think. It also helps.

We'll probably be sure that we're going to touch base on it, but everything with Don Cal is, I mean, there's a story behind everything and a story behind every piece. And I think that kind of helps with everything in terms of the talent, what they're doing, the company as well. It kind of all flits together a little bit.

I think it shapes pretty well. Yeah. Yeah, I swear you just hit like a periphery love language for me when you just said how there's the story behind the art because I do believe, you know, even my background in storytelling and television news and the pieces, the feature pieces I've did, there's something so inherently human in the stories that we tell through our art. And art can differ in many different ways. It can be a feature piece. It can be a physical piece of art like we do. So when you're referring to, storytelling. Can you elaborate on that a little bit? How do you feel that your art can aid in telling someone's story? I think it depends on, again, who that person is or who the talent might be, where they are in terms of their own character and their own storylines. But I feel like there are certain elements when I'm painting at least, I can speak for myself, of adding certain little things, whether it's a mood based on

on the type of lighting that I'm using colors, maybe the poses, but it can be something as simple as person sitting down, but it being so perfect, just epic and just so conscious about what might be going through their mind or in the picture. It could be either something like that. It can be like the pieces with Don and Kenny when he's holding him bloodied. It's just you have, or at least I have that freedom

to express little things in my mind where I feel like maybe in my head I'm developing this story or how I see them in that light might be what I want to portray and show them how I see them, if that makes any sense. I think it's so important that they know that they are very appreciate it. And what they're doing is giving me and other people, other artists, so much back. So it's a wonderful synergy between everybody. I just find it so fascinating because when I think about the wrestling business, art is not typically the first thing that comes from mind. But

when I go to conventions, I see all sorts of different types of wrestling art there. Yes. Why do you think using your background and your experience, experience in the field here. Why do people resonate with that from a standpoint where they're willing to spend money on these pieces? I think, like, we all love our merch, right? But there's something so unique about art. And when it's coming from myself or another artist,

we give ourselves a little bit of ourselves to these pieces. So they're always going to be unique. They're always going to be very different. And everyone, you're going to find something for it. to find something for everybody. So whether it's going to be a very comic style piece, whether it's going to be very intricate and painted like what I do, I think it's just whimsical. There's such a whimsy with it all. And it's, I'm not sure if you've ever done like the horror conventions or anything like that as well, but there's always tables with like either pranks or they'll have

jewelry, things like that. It's just something you just don't see. So I think it's very, unique that other people just don't have. And to get that, I think, is really neat. What is the most, I'm trying to find the right word for this. I guess the most appealing form of art that you'd found in your history that a wrestling fan might be attracted to. Would it be a small print?

Would it be a large poster? Like, is there a certain type of item that typically appeals more to wrestling fans? I think, I believe the posters always do well. I know that the 8x12s, I mean, they're relatively small, but when you have something so big, it kind of, it just, it's, it's epic, it's beautiful. There's so much detail that you can see into it. And I think people are really interested in actually purchasing things. They're a little bit more grandioso. I think that when you have something a little bit more larger in scale,

you know people have their little man caves and things like that so if you're to go in I personally find like the poster sizes like the really massive ones do very well they're also like the little five by sevens but you want something that you can actually like stare and look into I mean at least I do there's something very gratifying about looking at other people's work and like really taking a dive in and maybe seeing their brushstrokes or pencil how do they do it it's just really cool that way is there ever collaboration between the talent and the artist in terms of mass producing art or anything like that have you ever seen anything like that yeah so um i've done a few t-shirts with a couple of the talent on

a w i've done things for nala rose um andrida and jose um i was able to do a piece or a t-shirt design with negative 1 and 10 at the time so you always get feedback on what they're looking for sometimes they'll see a piece that you put out whether it's on social media and they might like it but they need a little bit more and maybe changing things here and there but they're very collaborative they want to make sure that they're represented in the best way and i think that that's very important as well but it's always been wonderful i know a lot of other artists who do do that as well and they do such a stellar job so i guess that's what i want to know so a talent will contact the artist and then together try to commission something that appeals and then that can go

into like mass production from there yes so usually um with my experience with doing um like for instance nile rose's uh t-shirts she had really loved one of the little cartoony designs that i had done But we had to change a few things. It wasn't as friendly as it was as it should be. But yeah, no, she was very great to work with. Everyone that I've worked with has been very wonderful, so I can't say anything but the nicest things. But it's great back and forth, little notes,

but they're great. They know what they want. They know their audience. they know their brand. And I think branding is super important when it comes to their representation. So I find that listening, making sure that they're happy with the end result is the main goal. So on the last note on this front, I just am trying to have a full understanding of how the sausage is made versus how it's put out. So you have the collaboration. And then when it's mass produced on a T-shirt, on a print, whatever it may be, is the artist getting? getting a cut of that or is it all up front? How does that process? So it's all up front depending on what is agreed upon between company and artist.

And after that, the image itself you give too. So we don't get royalties or anything like that as far as I know. I have never. So I've been very happy to just receive the payment and they're happy with their art piece and then they can do whatever they like. I mean, how gratifying is that for you when you see your art on this mass form? Wonderful. I can't express myself more than like the big smile on my face.

I love seeing people happy. I love seeing people wearing t-shirts or buying prints and just having something that they want and just being able to either wear it, put it up on their walls. It's wonderful. I have been to shows and having people come up to me up to me wearing my shirt or going, oh, my God, I love your stuff. It's very gratifying for me.

That's incredible. I love hearing that. And your artwork lately has been featured on a pretty big stage. This was a significant segment between Chris Jericho and Don Callis and the lead-in to All In. Yes. And I mean, why don't you explain it? You can explain it better than I can. What did we see of yours on AEW television? So we have seen when once Dawn has done, betrayed Kenny. Prior to that, I made a piece based off a historical painting of Ivan the Terrible and switched it up to Don the Terrible. And it was Don holding Kenny who had just been impaled with the screw driver to the head. Since then, that's been on AWTV. It's been on their social media. And it's also helped flurry in everything else going on with the Callis family.

and Dawn. So very happy with that. Prior to that, or after that, we had the Don and Takeshita sent our piece, which is a fan favorite, my favorite, and that's been everywhere as well. It was wonderful to see that at Wembley, just being just up there and everywhere. So that was just a moment for me, very happy, very proud moment for me. Then Chris Jericho being beheaded, which was just wonderful to work on. Are you, for the first piece, are you commissioned to do that? Or is this just something you did and it was noticed by somebody? So the first piece with Dawn and Kenny was just something that I had jumped on to the

opportunity. I am a firm believer of watching the product and seeing what I can pull out of that and making the moment or opportunity for myself. So in this art industry, it's a doggy dog work. all there so you got to just do the work and push and make sure you are hitting the whatever's hot whatever's popping the crowd because if not you were left stagnant so at that time i'd stayed up the entire night that wednesday to make this piece and put it out as soon as possible and it just gone to the right hands and i was contacted by someone at a w asking if they could use the piece

At the time, I didn't know how they were using the piece. I was very happy to allow that. And I was extremely happy to see the way that they did use it on the video wall and everything for Dawn's entrance. So it's been wonderful. And ever since then, they have commissioned me for other pieces, other pieces for Don as well. That's great. That's great to hear. I mean, you love seeing investment in art in any form.

And then in this form, it's weird, crazy form. where here you are inspired to draw a beheaded Chris Jericho. But nonetheless, but talking about the storytelling, right? It aided the storytelling of that segment. And you played a role in crafting this pro wrestling story as a fan to play a role like that. What does that mean to you? It's huge.

You can say that I'm Dawn's Invisible Hand. There you go. I'm merely a tool. I'm a paintbrush at his disposal. but I'm very happy to do so. For me, as a fan, if I can separate myself from the pro artist, it's something that I've always dreamt of doing. I've always wanted to work somehow in the pro wrestling business.

When I was growing up, I wanted to be a wrestler that just didn't pan out for me. But yeah, just being able to see it and contribute to something that's going to be talked about for hopefully the next few years, if not more, not more. But it does build conversation. It starts conversations. It, you know, gets fans talking and maybe they don't like it. And that's okay. I'm very okay with that. Where do you get the inspiration for paintings like that? In terms of collaborating with Don? Or in general, I mean,

you're watching TV. You're watching Don Callis. You're seeing him be a dick on TV. And all of a sudden, a thought pops into your head. Hey, I should draw. this? I think for me, at least again, for me, I've always just been such a fan of comic books and, you know, the supernatural movies, the action movies. So I always draw inspiration from a lot of different outlets for me. But Don being the man that he is, it kind of writes itself in inspiration. He's just the Don head of family. You know, there's something about that horse head in the bed that just kind of gets me. And I love the heels. The heels for me are always the most fun to do because there's so many different avenues which you can take. And, you know, if he wants

to call himself a serial killer, then, hey, more inspiration for me. Us wrestling fans are very normal people, you know? No doubt about it. Are we all normal if we're into wrestling? That's what I'm saying. We're real normal. How long does it take you to do a piece like that? It really depends on subjects. If I'm doing more than one subject in one piece, it can take anywhere between, oh gosh, 12 to 50 hours. Yeah, the last piece, the most recent piece that I've done that hasn't been unveiled, that will be unveiled next week on Dynamite, took about 39 hours, and that was 39 hours. The only breaks that I had taken were to go to the gym and then to watch the a pay-per-view all out.

Wow. Other than that, I stayed up and made sure that it was done and ready for them for dynamite. That's the difference between you and I. You take a break to go to the gym. I take a break to like barbecue. So that's the, that's the difference. We're just built differently. We're built differently.

You know, like I am the centaur and you are the person who is leading the way. I give you a lot of credit for that. That's great. Lead the way, man. All right. And, hey, listen, I love to hear that your work. going to be featured even more on AEW programming or even across the wrestling spectrum. Is there anyone in wrestling that you really wish you could collaborate with but

haven't had the chance to yet? Oh gosh. There's so many that the there it's just a stacked roster and I mean like I love WWE and I love AW. There's no like oh God one or the other but for me like my heart is solely into AW right now. If I had the chance I would love to work with all of the talent and do something just magnificent and show them how I see them. And that's a very intimate thing for me. There's just something that I love to pull out that will always speak a little differently to everybody. And I hope that that always translates when I do a piece. All right. Well, I think we need a piece of Tony Conn, Caesar, at this point. I'm ready for that.

Oh, no. Just get ready for that. No, I love that. Caesar, he's at the gates. That's not a this on Tony, man. He's the one chart. I'm not saying that. Jim Ross said they used to refer to Vince McNano Caesar in WW. Hey, look, we can always do a collaboration, right? There's got to be some sort of Tony Khan's got a good sense of humor. He's very self-aware when it comes to that stuff. Absolutely. I'm curious to see what your first commission for Tony will be at the end of the day. Get him on the line right now. Let's see what he wants. This is really great to hear. Is there any artist out there in the wrestling spectrum that you look up to or you admire?

There's so many. Rob Chambor giving one, Nolenium. I'm using their little Twitter names too. There's Doug Hills. Oh, God, there's so many. And Hal Hennie is just another one. It's just flooded with so much talent and so many great people out there. And the best part is that we're all always engaging.

and uplifting each other. There's never any sort of malice. We're always, like, we're always, like, rooting for each other to do and push and be better. And I can't thank them enough for welcoming into this community because I knew nothing, and I still know nothing coming into this business, this art business, because it's so new to me coming in back in 2021. So I'm learning so many things because of them and they're so gracious to allow me their time when they're busy doing things and prints and working with, you know, either WWAW making their t-shirt designs.

So it's very encouraging to hear feedback from them or just to hear, hey, you're doing great. You know, it's so wonderful and I can't think them enough. I wish that I can have like the long list of everybody and I'm so sorry guys, but you're all so wonderful and it's just a great community to be a part of. I'm very grateful. That's great to hear. And also I noticed you've talked about this on social media. You're an artist with Lupus. And I imagine that that is a challenge in and of itself. How have you navigated that in still trying to be able to put out the art that reflects. what you draw off in your mind? It's been a battle. It's an ongoing battle. I don't work a day-to-day job, so the art is my only source of income. So when I do get a gig, it's very great. I'm very grateful for it. But it can be challenging. There are days, every day is always hard. For those unfamiliar with lupus, it's an autoimmune, and you just don't.

know how it's going to affect you it could be any time if you wake up you're fatigued all constantly or your body's in pain or sometimes you do end up going to the hospital and spending a couple days there so it really depends it's a day-to-day thing um thankfully i've been doing my best to keep my stress levels low the sleep isn't helping but um it's it's it's an ongoing thing and um i'm very appreciative when i do get offered to work on something because it's uh it's important to me i love doing it and if i was to give up art right now to just kind of go back to a j job just to support myself it'd be heartbreaking but it's reality so the battle continues and i'll keep striving forward but it's hard it is hard um it's not it's hard to say you don't get a lot out of it

other than the the joy that you do when you make a piece um so when you do get a commission it's fantastic it's a passion fueled industry absolutely if you don't have it in you then it's not for you because it's the starving artist thing totally real yeah i can attest to that well listen i want to help you out here i know you've got a go-fund that you've posted. Mel Coleman Art Tipjar, if you look that up on GoFundMe. And I'm also going to include a link here in the episode descriptions on both YouTube and wherever you get your podcast and at 83weeks.com. If you'd like to see some of Mel's work here, you can leave a tip on her GoFundMe. It helps her out as an artist with Lupus and supports her work

in the process. Where can people find the rest of your work or examples of it or your social media's anything you'd like to share there? Sure. You guys can find me on Twitter or Instagram Just under Mel Coleman Arts, Instagram will have a full portfolio of what I've put out throughout 2021 and current. Twitter, I'm always updating little snippets, little teasers here and there. So it's always fun. I love engaging with fans and fellow artists as well. So I'm always happy to have a chat. Well, Mel, I appreciate you shedding some light on this side of the business, not an element of the business.

I think a lot of people really think about, but it's been really insightful hearing from you. I wish you nothing but the best congratulations on all of the AEW work. And hopefully you'll continue to wow some of us with some of these crazy weird, I plan on. I don't think I'm going away anytime soon. So we love to hear that. She is Mel Coleman. Thanks for hopping on Strictly Business.

So much. Let's step aside for a second, Eric, to remind the Strictly Business listeners out there that this episode of Strictly Business is presented by blue chew let's talk about sex gentlemen guys remember the days and it might have been a while ago it's okay if it was it might have even been just a few weeks ago when you were always ready to go on a moment's notice no shame our bodies change now you can increase your performance and get that extra confidence in bed by heading on over to bluechew dot com bluechew is a unique online service that delivers the same active ingredients as viagra sialis and levitra but in chewable tablets and at a fraction of the cost. You can take them

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really great stuff there from mel make sure you go check out her gof on me as i said i'm linking to it in our bio for the episode on both youtube and wherever you get your podcast she's a fantastic fantastic artist with a great attitude in combating her illness and trying to get her art out there so best wishes to her we talked about a w with her eric we got to talk about a ewe here i know on 83 weeks you did a whole episode on cm punk's departure from A.W, but we've had a few days now to kind of marinate in some of the things going on. And there's been some chatter about some previous interest that Punk had in WWE. And there's been speculation as to whether he could find his way back in the fold there.

Sean Ross Sapp even said that impact might try to reach out a lot of different things going on. Where do things sit as far as you see it with CM Punk now five days or so after his AW release? nothing's really changed for me i think it was uh it was something that had to happen uh we saw that but six months ago or so when when punk had his first meltdown uh in that media scrum um i'm just glad it's over for the same reason i'm glad the mergers over you know for wwe at ufc because now all of that bad air all that negativity all that drama and i'm not putting it on punk, by the way. I think the way punk handles stuff was stupid. And I think some of the things he said when he made his way into AEW was pretty stupid. But that's just my opinion based on my

tastes. But I think it's not up for debate. I think the way Phil handled things backstage and with regard to his issues with Tony or with AEW or talent, I think that's very amateurish. And I'm just glad it's over. You know, it's, it's an opportunity. This will sound strange in a way, but it's an opportunity to just hit the reset button and focus on the talent you have. There's a lot of great talent in an EW, a lot of great talent in an EW. Just identify them, focus on them, bring the company together. Probably everybody backstage was affected one way or the other, whether they were driving.

directly involved in it or just happen to be, you know, splattered with the shit that was hitting the fan every week. It's a negative vibe. It just takes away from the fun. I mean, if you can't have fun in the professional wrestling business, you're not capable of having fun anywhere. And I'm not, I want to make it clear. It's incredibly grueling work. It is very grueling work. And there's a lot of things that make being a professional wrestler at a high level, very, very challenging, emotionally, physically, obviously, distress that it puts on your relationships, family, all of that. It's not a walk in the park. However, once you manage that, there's nothing in my life that I've ever experienced that could come close to the feeling you get

when you're out there and you're performing and you're enjoying your performance and you love what you do. And the camaraderie should be a big part of it. You know, it's because it is such a tough business and maybe not so much at EW because they don't travel as much as WW. But, man, that's your family. And at some point, you got to get along with them. You may not want to go hang out with them after the show or whatever. But the energy, the positive energy, the camaraderie that should be backstage is important for the product itself because it just the difference between going out and performing when you're having a blast and you enjoy the backstage environment and everybody's getting along reasonably. It just makes it better. It makes your performance

better as opposed to being drenched in the drama and the negativity even if you're not involved it's still there it's like a just dark shadow over everything it's it affects the it affects the product eventually so i'm glad for a w like tony made a decision i think it made the right decision um now's the time to hit the reset button blow out all that bad air open the windows bring in some fresh air, galvanize the roster, get everybody excited about moving forward and just get past all this nonsense. What did you make of Tony addressing the Chicago crowd in person before the collision taping? I wish Tony would find someone, whether it's an attorney or somebody to represent to him when it comes to anything on camera some people are born to be on camera some people

may not be born for it but can learn how to do it and get really good at it and some people should never do it and tony falls into the latter category but i'm talking about not to cut you i'm talking about when before the show went on the air when yeah so am i'm okay so that wasn't on camera that was just in front of the audience and stuff well and i ended up seeing it of course it was covered right and i did see the the produced piece that he did yes he did do a produced piece but in either situation man he put himself in a bad situation going out in front of that crowd tony's not the kind of guy that can handle heat he just can't and and when i watch some of the video clips of him going out in front of the live crowd and sitting down on a chair like a little kid

waiting for people to quit booing him and he's just it he doesn't do his brand or himself one in the same in this case, any favors by putting himself out in front of that company. He would be, he should be the Wizard of Oz. He should be that mysterious figure backstage and, and let somebody who's really good on camera, especially dealing with controversial issues, let them do it. You know, you don't have to be out in front of it all the time, taking credit for it or trying to fix it when it breaks, find somebody to represent your company that's articulate, that's good on camera, that's credible. I don't know his attorney. I've heard good things

about her, by the way. I don't know if she would be the right person or not, but somebody like her that's already in the organization that has credibility to go out and represent Tony. When it comes to the creative side of things, you know, rather than becoming, you know, Tony hasn't really become a character, but Tony's kind of a character. He's still out there in front. I would find somebody else to do that for him. I don't know who that would be, but there's a lot of really talented people within that company already that could really do a good job. I hear your argument on that, and I don't necessarily disagree with most of the things you're saying, but I also do applaud an attempt at transparency. I think wrestling lacks a lot.

of transparency at times when transparency would smoothen out a lot of issues and i understand at the same time that part of him going out there was probably for some crowd control let the crowd get everything out before the live cameras started rolling for that episode of collision and for the pay-per-view the next day but i do think and you've gone on record on this too both of us here think tony con is a good man at his heart and i think there was a attempt made at being transparent with the fans as as to why a decision was made and trying to get out in front of it there. Just my taste. There's just better ways to do it.

That's all. We don't disagree getting out in front of it and dealing with it head out. I think that's, you know, people will respect that. I talked about that before punk was fired. You and I talked about that on this very show. So I applaud him for getting ahead of it and making a firm decision. I just think the way he went about it was, it could have been done better. Collision averaged about 345,000 viewers.

Again, you can't live and die by numbers, but clearly not a great sign going against college football, going against the WW Payback Show, and in the aftermath of CM Punk's firing, I know you had some thoughts on this. What do you got to say on that? I think people are making too big a, you know, granted, when Tony came out and made the announcement,

you know, they lost 89,000 people, 89,000 viewers. And that's, you know, that's significant. But I'd like to know with the lead, you know, before you just jump to the conclusion, and 89,000 people left because CM Punk was not exactly. I think that's a giant leap into fantasy land. I agree. We know that that number is accurate, but it could have been for other reasons. It had nothing to do with CM Punk.

What was the lead in for that show? You know, that's the first thing I wouldn't want to know. If I was analyzing and trying to figure out, okay, what went wrong? Why did we take this big a hit? The first thing I'd want to know was what was the audience. audience, the show that led into me. That's important because depending on what that show was, you can expect a significant drop off when you shift from, let's say, a sitcom or a movie to a wrestling show.

It just is. They're not necessarily going to be the same audience. An audience isn't necessarily going to hang around. You kind of hope they do, and that's the goal. But often they don't. So I would want to know what the lead in was. I don't, so I can't comment on it. And I think there was, and I talked about this, I think, with you or might have been with Conrad.

I think there was a fair amount of curiosity about what is Tony going to do where people who might not watch collision anyway or otherwise decided to tune in just to get a real-time update on what the situation was because it got a lot of press. And I don't think anybody that was a, you know, I don't say hardcore, but a active and excited wrestling fan. Everybody knew that this was a possibility. And there may have been some tune in just to find out. But I don't think that that number of $345,000 is that bad a number in the context of everything else. I agree. I predicted it months ago when you and I were talking about where you were right after the show started it opened up with 800,000 now it's and pre-punk firing right before punk got let go before

any of the drama it was bouncing around four or 500,000 viewers so it wasn't like it was you know setting the world on fire to begin with and we all knew that when college football became a thing that it was going to take another big hit and i think i predicted that you're going to see collision live in that low threes mid three category and i don't think punk leaving had anything to do with it i really don't and people listen to this and you know he doesn't know what he's talking about you know they come up with their bullshit you know social media analysis which i'm reading a lot of lately and it's fascinating how fucking stupid most people are that engage in that kind of rhetoric on social media. They're just completely, I mean, whack. But I just don't think punk's departure

ultimately will have as much of an impact on collision as people think it did. Because it didn't have a positive impact on the show to begin with. What impacted punk have on dynamite? It was a big deal when he first showed up and then it leveled down to where it was before he wasn't as big of a draw as people think he is or thought he was so i think this is what college football is gonna kick their ass it is what it is you got texas and alabama coming up this saturday are you kidding me and i again i think i predicted this but just really to check myself i'll go on on a line and say expect a 3 to 5% decrease in this week's number compared to last week's number. Now, last week, they were up not only against college football, opening college football,

they're also up against the WWE premium live event. That's a double hitter. I think they did actually pretty well considering college football and considering WWE. Now, they're not going to have a WWE in a live event that they're competing with this time, but they're going to be competing with some powerhouse football that anybody that's remotely interested in college football, including me, by the way, I will be watching. Conrad Thompson and actually his dad, Larry, really converted me into an Alabama fan. And now I'm going to be watching. I probably otherwise would not have, but a lot of people are going to be watching that

game. And I think it's going to take a bigger bump this week than it even did last week, even though it doesn't have WWE to compete with. aren't these Saturday, PLEs, pay-per-views, aren't they so great? You have them on Saturdays rather than Sundays, the work week's not directly in front of you. I think that's like the best thing that has come out of Nick Kahn's influence on WWE for the fan. I agree. You know, there's something about the mood on a Saturday night.

And most people that watch pay-per-views or premium live events, whatever, I'm going to keep calling on paper views and fuck anybody that doesn't like it because I just don't care. I'm not changing for that. So I'm going to call them pay-per-views. And I think a lot of people that watch pay-per-views do it. It's a small party. You bring your friends over. It's kind of like watching football. You grow.

You have a couple beverages. It's an event. And people watch it together. And it's just, I think people are more inclined to enjoy the product on a Saturday night than they are on a Sunday night when they have to get up good work the next day. It's so great. It makes it so much easier to consume. I'm a big fan of it.

That was just a sidebar. But to your points about punk, I think you're right. I think that there was a lot of excitement about punk because of the mystery that came with CM Punk from his WWE departure nine years ago. And because of all that mystery, people really wanted to see would he hold up as a draw? And I like CM Punk, the performer, quite a bit. I really do. C.M. Punk, especially in his prime, was the type of

a wrestler that I really identified with. And from a personal perspective, I've had nothing but great experiences with him. But it was very apparent that this was something that was losing a lot of steam very quickly. And even upon coming back, the

interest just wasn't there at the same level that it was when he came in. It just wasn't there. So I tend to agree with you, Eric, that I don't think he was making that much of a difference. in the actual collision program as a draw, you know, maybe the structuring of it,

if we're led to believe that he had as much power as he did with it and say as to how the show was formatted and looked, you know, maybe there's a lot of influence there that will be seeing change. But when you have so many talented people back there and there really are, and I know you spoke very highly of Brian Danielson and the role that he's taking on in AW. And I agree. I think Brian Danielson is exactly the type of guy that you want to have a shot at running a show like that. I just think that this is your chance. You said kind of a reset before.

The word that I heard from a lot of AW talent in the last couple weeks was rebuild. And I think this is an opportunity to do something of a rebuild. Do you think that this is probably the end of the soft brand split that we saw forming over a period of time? I don't, I have no idea. You know, I don't know. I do know that unless Tony Kahn delegates some creative authority, it's just going to be more of the same. Nothing is going to change. Tony is not the booker that Dave Meltzer promotes him to be.

He's the booker of the year. When it comes to creative, Tony's, I think he's missing the mark and doesn't understand the broader a television product or the television audience. He may, you know, he may be targeting people just like him and like he was when he was a teenager and used to go to wrestling and as a kid, but you don't, you don't usually find success producing, writing, creating for an audience of one. And I think while Tony's approach is very ECW-ish, we saw that. You know, it doesn't lend itself to it.

broader commercial television product. It just doesn't. And I think a large part of that is because Tony really doesn't understand television. Being a wrestling fan all your life does not necessarily mean you automatically understand how to build a wrestling project or brand or company. It just doesn't. Those two are not joined at the hip. There's a lot of wrestling fans out there that have been wrestling fans all their life and could sit down and detail probably on a blow-by-blow basis matches that happened 15 years ago doesn't mean they know how to produce a television show and I think the thing that I'm most excited about as negative as that sounds the thing that I'm most excited about is and I don't know why I've where I heard this but if there's any possibility

that Brian Danielson is going to get an opportunity to run collision or at least have a serious voice on the creative side of that show. I think it has a lot of potential just because it's a different creative perspective. And Brian Danielson clearly, you know, vis-a-vis his experience in WWE understands television. He has learned it under some of the best that have ever done it. So why would you not tap into that? And it's, you know, Brian Danes is not the only one. There are other people in that company that have some similar experience.

Why not bring those guys in and give them some rope? Let them do it. You've got nothing to lose. At 345,000 viewers, Tony, you've got nothing to lose. Those are YouTube numbers. You know, give it a shot. It might work. And if nothing else, it will be vastly different than the dynamite show.

And that excites me. I hope that that happens. For Tony's sake, for the talent's sake, company's sake, it needs a breath of fresh air in a different creative approach. I think Brian Danielson, I think he can become Tony Kahn's Pat Patterson, the type of guy that you lean on to not just help you with your finishes and everything, but really be the glue that keeps the cohesiveness together. In your programming, in your storytelling,

I think a lot of people look at Paterson in the role he played for Vince McMahon at that time. And I think the way that Tony Khan speaks of Brian Danielson, and you said you weren't sure where you heard it, this came directly from the press conference from After All Out this past weekend where Brian Danielson was up there with Tony Con. and he was asked directly about this kind of stuff and the role that he could see himself taking on as his in-ring day start to wind down just a little bit.

So I do foresee him becoming a pretty influential figure one way or another within A.W. And think about you've got, you've got Brian Janison and Chris Jericho. Between the two of them, you've got about 50 years of high-level, very, very successful wrestling experience. maybe not quite 50, but a lot. No, you're right. Maybe Chris isn't interested. I don't know, you know, because it, you know, you put yourself in that position of, you know,

having a large voice when it comes to creative, it changes the dynamic backstage. And it's not necessarily good all the way around. But, man, you've got Chris Jericho and Brian Deiongson. I don't know, man. Tap into that. Those two guys working together could be amazing. for for AEW you really hit a lot on you know Tony saying that he's booking for one and whatnot and there are definitely times where I see a lot of that very centralized booking but

then there are examples that I see the MJF the Adam Coles where you have this very complex long-term storytelling happening I for me I think one of the most fantastic character progressions A.A.W. has done has been Orange Cassidy. And building every small part of the evolution of his character to a payoff, which this past week, we just saw it all out. It was like almost the end of phase one of the Orange Cassidy character. Now he moves into this next phase of his career. Do you have any thoughts on Orange Cassidy? I don't think I've ever talked to you about Orange Cassidy, but he's one of the more complex and different characters in wrestling today. I enjoy his work. I really do. I know he was controversial coming in.

I think he was one of, you know, Tony Kahn was the one that, you know, really was so high on him in the very beginning and gave me the opportunity. And I think it was a good call. He's a completely different character, right? I mean, everything he does is so unique, but guess what? He's not better than he's not less than. He's different then. And by being different than everybody else and being true to his character and being so unique compared to everybody else, he's now standing out. So I, you know, obviously I've never worked with him, but in terms of what I've seen him do and the way he carries himself, I think very highly of him.

Yeah, I think he's one of the most special talents in wrestling, quite frankly, and the way that they have progressed his character from where he started to where he is now as a top guy in AW. He main evented the pay-per-view this past weekend got a standing ovation from the crowd. At the end of it, I just think they've done a really great job with him. So I see those promising examples. And I'm like, okay, there's something here. There absolutely is, but then there are fair criticisms to be had, too. So leaning on those people like the Brian Danielsons, the Chris Jericho's, the Dean Malencos, the Jimmy Jacobs, these really smart wrestling minds that you have there. I'm curious to see with punk out of the equation, how much and who gets leaned on more so as we go forward here.

Look, you've got a situation where, to my knowledge, AEW is still haven't negotiated their new deal, right? So there's some pressure there. You know, I would think, I believe firmly that Warner Discovery owns 30% of AEW. And until I hear somebody from either Warner Discovery or Tony Conn himself deny it, I'm pretty sure I'm right, but you know, you've got to perform. And right now, dynamite is flatter than piss on a plate. It's actually deteriorating for the most part. If you look at, you know, we both follow Brandon Thurston and every week he puts out all kinds of data. It's fascinating and he does an amazingly thorough job at it. But you don't have to necessarily believe me or anything that I say.

You just have to, you know, look at the data. I've been saying for a year and a half, the show is not going to grow if it doesn't start becoming more interesting from a creative perspective, better storytelling, disciplined storytelling that include arcs and plot points and are designed to peak at certain points and times. Until that happens, it's just, you know, dream matches and dream, you know, yeah, it's going to be what it is. I would think, Whether it's on the Warner Discovery side or the AEW side, somebody's got to go, you know, maybe we should take a different approach to creative because it's not working.

Not only in television is not working, but if you look at ticket sales for their live events, they're deteriorating as well. We're two weeks out from Arthur Ashe Stadium, and I think they've got 6,000 tickets sold on a 12,000 in a building where they sold 20,000 in 20 minutes the first year. doesn't that tell you something? I mean, it should, or do you just ignore it?

Because the small circle of people around, you're telling you you're doing a great job. The numbers do not lie. They don't. And at some point, you need to wake up and have a cup of coffee and go, okay, as much as I like what we're doing, apparently the audience doesn't. So let's fix it.

So then when AEW was at its hottest, Let's say probably midway through 2020 into the beginning of 2022. Let's say that's kind of where we've seen AWP in terms of live attendance, ratings, et cetera. Who was booking that? It was Tony Kahn. It was also the new kid on the block. It was also, to think about, I always use the analogy of a restaurant. you know, you open up a new restaurant in the restaurant district in New York and you do a lot of

anticipation, a lot of promotion, everybody's a buzz. It's a great location. Everybody's excited. You open your doors. Everybody comes in. You're standing room only. You can't even get a table. And then the following week, you're about half full because all of those people that were excited came during that hot period of AEW and then we're going to all of these markets around a country for the first time. They went to Arthur Ash, and I could be wrong about the stats. So if I am, I am. And I apologize for that. But I think I remember somebody telling me, they sold like 20,000 tickets in the first 20 minutes. Whoa. Take a look at where they are today. Two weeks out, building a scale for 12,000, not 20.

And they've only sold 6,000 tickets so far. What does that tell you? And by the way, who's booking the same guy that's why i think the new car smell that i often refer to which by the way also was a big factor in wimbly a really really hot wrestling market in the u.k that's undeniable we all know that we've been talking about that both on the indie scene and on a large scale and they're the new kid in town and everybody's been hearing about them and now they get a chance to be a part of history that's a draw in itself it's why they sold 60 000 tickets without announcing a match because people want to be a part of that first ever big event they're not coming because of the story they may not even be coming really because of the characters they're becoming

they're coming because there's a new kid in town there's a new restaurant on the block and we want to check it out and be there and that same pattern like i said you go around the country wrestle ticks t ix and follow them on social media go back and you know look and see what they're doing in real time in these markets, Brandon Thurson, also if you check him out on social media, follow him on Twitter, did a really great job of analyzing markets where AEW has been repeating over the last two or three years. And it's not a pretty picture. It's not a horrible picture in some cases. I don't want to make it all doom and gloom, but it's none of it is up. It's all down, some way more significantly than others. But it doesn't matter. You know,

it matters. But I don't think you can. point to the success of AEW back in 2021 and go, well, that's because of Tony Khan's booking. No, it's because of they were new. They were fresh. There was a lot of anticipation. There was a lot of excitement at the idea of being an alternative to WWE, but it really isn't an alternative anymore, is it? Other than the amount of blood and the kind of gratuitous violence that we see fairly consistently in AEW that you don't see in WWE. Other than that, what's different about it? Wait, but hold on a minute. First off, there's a point that I'm trying to make that I'm going to make and I think it's one

you'll generally agree with. But to push back on that for a quick second, you are every week on this podcast and on 83 weeks talking about how there should be this format to storytelling. This is how you should structure your stories. You know, this is how WWE has found success in doing a track record of building successful stories. But now you're saying, well, now it's not different enough from WWE, where AW is supposed to be an alternative. And now it's not. Now it's too similar in to WW. So where what's the right? It's not similar at all. It's just less than. Okay. Less than different than. It's not different unless you want to consider the the copious amounts of blood and the the gratuitous violence. That's different. But what is it about

AEW that is so different from WWE. I'm waiting. It's just not there. There's no way. It's just not. Well, it's the problem. And listen, I know, I know how this goes. There are going to be people watching this.

They're going to be the hell is an AW mark. I don't care. It has no impact on me whatsoever how these companies do. I don't work for any of them. It has no impact on me whatsoever. I want to stress that. But the difference. is AW is the product for the hardcore wrestling fan that appeals to them by giving them

these big time wrestling matches. And I know what you're saying. The dream matches is no way to have a company. And that's a fair argument. You can totally make that argument. And I'm not going to push back on that by any stretch of the imaginations. But that is incidentally what AW was created for. And that is what it has stood as. And it's not working. And I'm not suggesting that it is or it isn't. I'm just saying that is what the difference is. is now i want to get back to the point at hand here because you're saying well it's the new car smell during that period of time i agree there's definitely a high degree of truth to that i think objectively as somebody who watched the show every single week it was a better product

there were definitely more cohesive stories being told with characters developing on television every single week where and at this period of time i'm talking about and i'll tell you when i noticed start to change. It started to change around the time when CM Punk came in. And there was all of a sudden this different shift in, we're getting all these different talent coming in and talent that we've been featuring consistently on television since pretty much the start of Dynamite are now starting to take the backseat to some of these new talent that we're bringing in. The roster's expanding rapidly, and I think there was a little bit of a loss in focus. And when people aren't caring about the characters because they're not seeing them every week, or they're not

seeing them on a consistent enough basis, you start not to care as much about the stories that are being presented. And I think it really does correlate to right around the time that CM Punk came in, end of summer 2021, getting into the beginning of 2020, where you started to see that wheel change to the point where I don't think it has been nearly consistently strong as a television program from a storytelling perspective, with the exception of some really great stories that have been told. That's my assessment of it, Eric. And I know that's a little different than what you're saying, but I do think ultimately it does fall back to around the time when punk came in. And I think there was kind of a shift in attitude at that time.

Yeah, I mean, maybe. Certainly, I could relate to a shift in fun. Because if you think you've got Elvis Presley coming in and you're going to, you know, build your company around this character that you think is going to have such a significant impact. And then he shows up and you realize two weeks later, not so much, didn't really matter that much. You're going to put a lot of focus in energy because there was, you know, there was a big financial commitment. I'm sure. There's a there's all kinds of commitments to bringing in somebody like punk. And perhaps, yeah, did take a lot of focus up some of the underneath talent. that was actually beginning to grow and getting some television time and that's, you know, I'm not denying that that could have happened. But I don't think, you know, I also wouldn't put it all on punk either. No, and

I'm not in the same period of time, Tony was consistently the big surprise. He was like Dixie Carter 2.0. Every other week, there was some big surprise announcement that was going to change the wrestling world as we know it.

And every one of them were popcorn and far as well and there were a lot of there's a lot of roster expansion going on and maybe there wasn't necessarily a demand for that but the roster was rapidly expanding all these new people are coming in and you're losing focus on the stars that people are really growing up with since the start of your company the pride and powerfuls the eddie kingston you know those types of people well we'll see won't we let's just see and i'm going to go back to what i said at the beginning of this conversation i hope that tony opens up all the window let some fresh air blow in, get rid of all the negative negativity backstage and give a couple

people like a Chris Jericho or Brian Danielson, give them an opportunity. I mean, you've got three shows now, dude, give them one. Yeah. You can still be the, you can be your, you know, Vince McMahon, Paul Heyman of dynamite. You'd be that guy. But be smart enough and confident enough that somebody else can actually do it better. and you benefit from it, you know, you don't have to be that guy. The smartest people I know are the people that find people smarter than them

to surround themselves with. Be the smart guy in the room that surrounds yourself with much more talented people and have enough confidence in yourself and security in yourself that you can allow them to get the credit. It's okay because you're cashing the checks. It's okay. I've always liked CM Punk. I'm disappointed that things didn't.

and work out how many people hope that they would i think it's best that they both moved on and if he's done in wrestling i don't know so what's a consensus among amongst your ilk your ilk being people that talk about wrestling a lot more than i do i only do it when i'm talking to you and when i'm talking to conrad but but you know i know there's a lot of chatter about punk going to wwe what's your take or what's the consensus to those people that you're We're going to start a little conspiracy theory here, right? I know a good conspiracy theory piques your attention, okay? I think a lot of people would say based on previous history with Vince and previous history with Paul Levec,

that the chances on the surface of CM Punk going back to WWE would be slim. But as of September 12th, Vince McMahon doesn't own majority share in WWW. anymore can i can i can i can i just interrupt you along the way please please i don't think that fact and it is a fact will have any influence at all on vince's influence on that company and and i think for the most part you're right but let me let me finish this thought here even though vince won't be the one in charge paul levec is being removed from the board all that stuff Endeavour is going to be in charge of WWE at the end of the day. Ari Emanuel is going to be the one who is feeding everyone below him, ultimately.

CM Punk has an existing relationship with Endeavor. CM Punk with the UFC guy. What is that relationship? CM Punk was in UFC for a period of time. Have you heard Dana White comment on the... Not just as a fighter, but he did periphery work for them as well. it wasn't just him as a fighter he did broadcast work for them there is an existing relationship there and i'm going to turn it real quick here back to your own words last week when you gave one of my

favorite stories that i've ever heard from you about the turner uh the focus group stuff which i think is some of the best stuff and i was talking to mike webber about that the other day and he told me he remembered that exact focus group that you were referring to um who's to say that someone in endeavor high up is not familiar with the CM Punk name. They know it because the previous history. And they say, oh, yeah, CM Punk's someone we should bring back. And all of a sudden there's this outside influence. I'm just starting a conspiracy theory here, Eric, okay? My genuine, I think CM Punk's done in pro wrestling. I really do. But who's to say, man? Ultimate Warrior came back to WWE. And that was something that nobody thought was going to

happen. Look, I think that there's a chance that Punk could make it back to WWE. If, and I don't know Phil Brooks, so this is just me really plucking things out of thin air, but if Phil Brooks woke up tomorrow morning and said, you know what, I got some gas left in my tank, I can make millions of dollars, but clearly I've got some baggage I've got to get rid of first. You know, whether he deserves it or not, he's carrying a lot of baggage with him right now. The perception, unfortunately, can become reality. And if I'm CM Punk and I wake up and I have this conversation with myself and I just look at the clock and a calendar and go, wait a minute, I've got maybe three years left where I can really, really make.

make a lot of money and go out on a high note and my career on a positive note instead of this negative one. If Phil Brooks is the type of man that first of all recognizes it and realizes that he's at least 50% responsible for it, if not more, the way he's handled himself and conducted himself, going back to that media scrum that I keep referring to, because that to me is, he really showed his ass as a professional right there. That's a guy that if I was ever considering doing business with him, I would not do business with him just because of what he did to Tony Con. Unforgivable, in my opinion.

However, if Phil can realize that he's just much like, you know, anybody that's got a bad habit eventually if you've got a bad habit that's holding you back from being more successful then you've got to fix that bad habit and if Phil can do that and sit down and have an honest to honest conversation with Paul Aveck Paul Avex is smart dude absolutely and I think if Paul Aveck were to believe believe Phil Brooks, then I think there's a shot. Yeah. And the situation, the environment, it would be a lot different in

WWE than it wasn't a EW. Absolutely. He's not going to be able to come in there, throw his weight around, and try to intimidate people and be a prima don't up because he just, you're not going to pull that kind of shit in WW. Well, and the main reason that everything happened with Punk and WWE 10 years ago, was because he felt the system and the structures were failing wrestlers. And now it's a very different environment from even 10 years ago right now in WWE.

The industry has changed a lot in that time, including who's in charge. And I do think that would be a really, really interesting situation that you're describing. And I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility, but there'd have to be quite a few hurdles to overcome in order for something like that to happen. Look, and I'm, you know, I'm speaking from a unique perspective. You know, you look at all the horrible shit that I did to WWE, including almost putting them out of business. Their words, not mine. When I finally got there in 2002 and was having serious conversations with people that are still close friends of mine, many of them, that was a time when everybody was afraid.

It was, W.W.E was going to shut down because of the competition, the real competition. not the cosplay competition, but the real competition that we were coming to the table with every Monday night. I did some horrible shit, giving away their finishes, all the silly stuff I did. Silly to me then, fun for me then, silly to us all now, but back then, there was nothing funny about it. And for them to bring me, when I say them, it was Vince McMahon.

Vince was the only one probably that wanted to bring me back. But I will also say that everybody that company, from Linda to Stephanie to Shane to Undertaker, to a lot of the people, to Paterson, to Gerald Briscoe, people that were really, really part of the WWE family and had been for a long time and were the most loyal to WWE and Vince McMahon. were also the most gracious when I came back

or when I came there the first time. So it's not the culture in WWE, I don't think is going to be such or is such that he's burned too many bridges and there's no way. I don't believe that at all. I believe it's all up to Phil Brooks and how honest he's capable of being with himself

and what his goals are. He may have enough money in the bank after this last run to not give a fuck. I don't know. I don't know what his financial situation is, but you still, no matter how much money you have in a bank, if you're sitting there going, well, I don't really have much to do, and I could probably still make, you know, another four, five, six million dollars over the next two or three years. Maybe I should do that, you know, but if he's willing to have an honest conversation with

himself and admit some of his own faults and sit down with Paul and have an honest conversation, I can see it happening. and look and it could be really good it could be great for WWE it could be great for Phil CM Punk whatever you want to call him it could be great for him if he's willing to do that if he's not then he's just going to fade away

and be a cult wrestling star and nobody will remember him 10 years from now I think there would be a lot of people who would love to see a scenario like that happen for his legacy in WWE I would actually love to see it because it's a good ending it is a good ending absolutely I know and again I don't really dislike

Phil Brooks because I don't know him. I dislike like a lot. Some of the things he's done, some of the way he's behaved, some of the things he said, his approach to getting himself over, I think exposed, he exposed himself to me and some of the things that he did that a lot of wrestling fans probably didn't even recognize or care about. But it's, it's some of the things that he's done as a character on camera that maybe if this guy doesn't have it, he thinks he does, he's kind to everybody else into thinking he does but that's just cheap heat cheap heat doesn't impress me he does but not cheap but i still think he look he's got a hell of a mystique about him he's got a hell of a backstory with wwe there's all kinds of stories that you could probably

craft out of real life uh or perceived real life there's all kinds of things you could do um if his head is on straight and if he wants to he may not want to you may not give him fuck i'm going to ask you for one bold prediction here and then we'll wrap up is phil brooks cm punk on the russomania 40 card this coming april all depends on what we just talked about come on give me give me give me something fun give me give me something fun for the strictly business faithful i can't i mean i can you know just to get people talking just the bullshit i think he's going to be in the main event it's going to be cody road against CM Punk.

Through Cody Rhodes. Cody's out. Punk's coming in for Romans title. That's how it's going. Hey, look, Gunther just passed Honky Tunk Man's Intercontinental Championship record, so you never know. Crazy things.

Gunther, isn't he an interesting character? He's amazing. He's amazing. Eric's a really, I mean, he just, man, if you were making a movie, if you're doing an animated movie and you wanted to come up with just, the best archetype of a badass wrestler.

He would look like that there. He's a 1980s Hulk Hogan villain in 2023. He's the only person I've ever seen with a jaw bigger than John Sinus. John Cena's got a jaw. I smacked him one time. We were in a thing we were doing together and I was on the outside of the ropes. I think he was wrestling Kurt Angle or somebody. And John, you know, there was a spot there where John was supposed to be getting his ass kicked

and he's hanging outside of the ropes. So Vince wanted me to go up and just wallop them in the side of the head. And I just have a hard time hitting people I'm not pissed off at in real life. So I'm kind of tentative. I didn't want to be too stiff. But I had to because I knew John would be upset if I didn't lay it in there. I reached back and I smacked him. I went, fuck.

I would never hit that man in a jaw with my bare heads. It would have to be a hammer or a two by four or a jackhammer or something. But Goddair's got a bigger draw. Do you imagine trying to knock him out? Dude, I want no piece of anything. Good for him. I'm glad he's having this success. He's going to be a big time star in WWE.

I feel pretty confident about that and sooner rather than later, in my opinion. But this has been a great episode of Strictly Business. Thank you again to Mel Coleman for hopping on with us. Lots of fun discussion here. We want you on board, guys. Very much so on Strictly Business. Join us.

advertise with eric.com get your product get your business out in front of thousands of listeners every single week right here on strictly business we want to make it work with you and we have a great time why wouldn't you want eric bischoff and those dimples endorsing your product every single week you know i mean come on now that's what we're talking about here 83 weeks dot com ad free shows dot com get your strictly business make sure you're subscribed anything else you want to throw out there my friend uh no other than i'm going to be in atlanta this weekend at deep south wrestling's event i'm going to be connecting with my my nemesis from wwee teddy long i'm the grand marshal teddy teddy is there as well nick patrick is involved in

the show it's deep south wrestling they're having our grand prix heavyweight championship tournament so i'm going to be a part of that and looking forward to it i haven't been back to to land in a long time. So hopefully, Teddy Long doesn't make you go one-on-one with the Undertaker in Deep South wrestling. Or you end up in a tag team match player, holla, halla. This has been strictly business. We'll see you next time.