99% Invisible - 223- The Magic Bureaucrat

Episode Date: August 3, 2016

In 1996, President Bill Clinton and the Congress undertook a reform effort to redesign the welfare system from one that many believed trapped people in a cycle of dependence, to one, that in the President’s words, would give people “a … Continue reading →

This is 99% invisible. I'm Roman Mars. 20 years ago, back in 1996, a crowd of reporters and politicians gathered in the White House Roseville. President Bill Clinton stepped up to the podium and announced that he was signing a landmark bill. It would dramatically redesign welfare, the $16 billion government program that millions of poor Americans relied on for basic support. In this as well as in other press conferences, Clinton made it clear that a central tenant to his redesign was the idea of welfare to work. First and foremost, it should be about moving people from welfare to work. This new reform said that in order to collect welfare, recipients would need to work at a job. To transform a broken system, the traps too many people in a cycle of dependence,

to one that emphasizes work and independence. To give people on welfare a chance to draw a paycheck, not a welfare check. This whole idea of a paycheck, not a welfare check. This whole idea of a paycheck, not a welfare check, work, not welfare, it's relatively familiar to us now. But there's a complicated backstory behind how it came to be at the center of the reforms that President Clinton passed that day in 1996. Reforms that still affect many people today.

Over the last 20 years, the number of families living in deep poverty, unless the $2 a day, is rising. And most of them don't receive welfare. That's Chrissy Clark, the senior correspondent for Marketplace's Wealth and Poverty Desk. She has been researching the history of welfare reform for a podcast series called The Uncertain Hour. And today, we're presenting an adaptation of the first episode from that series.

It's about a guy who basically pioneered the work not welfare reform, a guy who came to be known as... The Magic Bureaucrat. My name is Lawrence Townsend. Larry, for short, Larry is 79 retired. He's got close-cropped white hair, broad shoulders, and a serious face with one of those army general smiles that never quite turns up at the edges. Today, Larry lives in a beach town in California, where he drives around in a green Cadillac civille that has a brass frame around the license plate. And etched into the brass, it says,

life works if you work. Larry loves work, just the idea of it. He has a binder full of work ethics slogans that he's collected over the years. These are from famous quotes from all over the world. Alphabetically. Yeah. In fact, there are some that I want to just show you. He starts with A. Aristotle suggested that happiness results from meaningful activity. Who goes all the way down to T. Tolstoy declared it's a duty of each man to earn his living by the sweat of his brow and cow's hands makes independent and virtuous men. Now that was a little

sexist but the point is very valid. And just as much as Larry Townsend loves the idea of hard work, he hates welfare programs. I've seen so much of damage to people that are on welfare. They have no hope for a better future. They aren't setting a good example for their children. Once when Larry was working in county government, he noticed two children in the welfare office waiting room waiting for their mom and they were pretending to play welfare. One of the children was playing the welfare recipient. The other one was the playing the eligibility worker.

Now you tell me they aren't learning how to get on welfare. Like kids would play house. Playing house in the waiting room while their mother was in the office with the eligibility worker. Now they're catching on about the concept of getting on welfare. Now that one hurt me. And then there's the story about the two women he says he overheard in an elevator once. And this one said to the other one, my oldest child is going to become 18.

And I won't get welfare benefits, you know. I need to get pregnant. These are the kind of anecdotes that get told and retold among critics of welfare. Individual moments that may not be typical of welfare recipients in general, but for critics, these stories represent all the failings of the system. But in the late 1980s, Larry suddenly found himself in a position to change welfare in a big way, because he became the head of a welfare department in a big suburban county, East of LA, called Riverside. The way he saw it, his role in the welfare office was...

To invade and conquer. That was my attitude. Quick history lesson here. Since the Great Depression, when the program was first signed into law, welfare had worked pretty simply, at least in theory. If you were a single parent, if your family was poor enough, and if you met a few other technical requirements, you qualified for a welfare check. End of story. There was little expectation that mothers would work.

This is James Ricchio, a sociologist who's been studying welfare programs for most of his career. And he's talking about this crazy flip flop that happened over the years around who we thought deserved welfare. When the program began, the whole point was to help single mothers, mostly widows at the time, make ends meet so they could stay out of the workforce,

focus on raising their kids into productive citizens. The attitudes began to change, particularly in the 1970s and early 80s. Part of it had to do with the fact that more middle-class mothers were entering the workforce. So some were asking the question, what about mothers on welfare? Shouldn't they have jobs, too? Joe Hutz is a labor economist at Duke, and he says, well, most welfare moms did have jobs, at least on and off.

There was this persistent group of largely single mothers, who stayed on welfare for long periods of time, and they didn't work, and arguably had a life of dependence on welfare. And that small, but persistent group of completely dependent welfare recipients started to get all of this focus. There's a lot of academic attention to this, certainly a lot of attention in policy circles to this quote problem of welfare independence. And the view was that, you know, what's key to changing this was to make changes in the welfare system, which encouraged people to work. But then the question was, how? Out in the suburbs of Riverside, California, Larry Townsend had some ideas.

And his county got a special waiver from state and federal authorities to try some of those ideas out. I was absolutely stunned that I was given freedom to design a program, to implement a program, to hire the staff that are needed. I felt like it was an honor. It was an opportunity and it had a chance to change the concept of welfare. Larry's changes happened under a California pilot program called Gain, short for greater avenues for independence. So at the time in the 80s, there was the standard welfare approach, which was like, you make less than

X amount, and you get a welfare check every month. And there were two basic avenues counties could take to get more of their welfare families closer to financial independence. One was the education and training route. The idea here was to help poor single moms who'd often dropped out of high school, to get more skills, maybe a GED, to fare better on the job market. But down in Riverside, Larry did not have much patience for that approach. His approach much simpler. Get people into a job immediately.

Just don't worry about, are you trained enough or do you have enough education, just get that job. We're not going to train you for years. We're not going to send you to school for years. We're going to show you how to find a job. No vocational training or GED, just get in the workforce ASAP. Any way you can. You can still hear the conviction in Larry's voice talking about this program almost 30 years later.

Listen to it. How to find a job. And the point wasn't to find a perfect job or even a well-paying job. But at least your foot is in the door and how well you succeed from there is up to you. With an important catch. If you do not cooperate with us,

we will take you off of welfare. Your children will still get money from us, but you won't. To carry out his jobs first plan, Larry restructured his welfare office to run job search classes and job clubs for welfare recipients. James Ricchio and Joe Hutz, the sociologist and the economist we heard from a minute ago, both sat in on some of Riverside's job clubs,

and they left an impression. Imagine people sitting in a circle, chairs in a circle, there'd be a job club leader who would talk about what it means to work, how to find a job, how do you approach potential employers, how do you address? Dealing with testy supervisors? Eventually, the people on welfare would be handed a list of job leads and a telephone and told to start calling around and asking for jobs. Here's Joe Hutz again. And there's a whiteboard, right?

So somebody would get us, you know, an interview and it would go up on the board and everybody, you know, would pause at various points and cheer, right? This is like going to, you know, these weight watcher meetings where, you know, I points in cheer, right? This is like going to these Weight Watcher meetings where I lost 15 pounds, right? I got a job offer and that sense of this is exciting. We're doing something that's really important and novel. You could see how to an impact on the recipients who were involved in these job clubs.

But those job clubs, the cheers and the whiteboards and the Weight Watchers vibe, they were just the beginning of Larry's plans for the welfare recipients of Riverside. Larry says his vision was much bigger. In fact, we'll hope very safe, with a positive attitude, with the beauty and glory of work. And so I became sort of like a preacher for work. This was a campaign to change hearts and minds and get people excited about getting a job, which involved a lot of marketing.

Booklets, posters, billboards. Full of welfare to work slogans. Success stands on your backbone, not your wishbone. Action-term streams into realities. Get into gear, start a career. The messages were printed on bumper stickers to catch the eye of a welfare recipient walking through the welfare office parking lot on buttons that the welfare intake workers would pin to their lapels. A person who aims at nothing has a target he can't

miss. He's proud of honest labor. Don't wait for your ship to come in, swim out to it. But even if you somehow miss these messages on the bumper stickers and on posters and pins and outside of envelopes. It was especially hard to miss this. I thought music is a very inspirational form of communication. And so Larry made this CD called Work Makes the Difference. He used $2,000 of taxpayer money, no authorization, to record it. I figured I might get fired over it. But he didn't.

This is the first track, the title track. Will your children be the next generation? Or will to be the whole music when people called up the welfare offices. It would play during voicemail greetings. I have to say, since I first heard these songs, I cannot get them out of my head. There are 10 songs in all, different genres,

to appeal to different demographics, Larry says. There's a song that features a whole rap section. So boarding yourself is helping yourself. You've got to have something that's de-enright. And then there's a song with a kind of slow reggae jam. And then there's a song with a kind of slow reggae jam. And then there's a jazzy Andrews sister's 40 style thing that's very hard not to snap your fingers to But we're not done yet. There are also three different versions of a song called Feel So Good to Have a Job.

Feel So Good to Have a Job. Feel So Good to Have a Job. Feel So Good, Feel So Good, Feel So Good to Have a Job. And for the Spanish speaking audience. And all these songs were written, composed, produced, and recorded by the staff of the Department of Public Social Services, or SPSS, which was the welfare department that Larry Townsend ran. What happened was he sent out a memo. A paper memo.

Yeah, paper memo. It was an all-staff memo. Keith Rogers was working in the mail room of DPSS back then. His job was to send out the welfare checks that, according to one of the songs he would later write, welfare recipients should be envisioning in their past. The memo from Larry said he was looking for volunteers to take some of the work ethics slogans he'd collected and put them to music, turn them into songs. Keith was a musician. The mailroom thing was just his day job.

So when he saw this all-step memo, he was like, oh, I got a chance to do my thing. Let me just go up and whip something up and then submit it to Larry Townsend. So after work Keith sketched out a melody, he still remembers it. Well, first temporary and not a way of life. And he sent a demo over to Larry. He loved it. Next day I know I'm up in his office. He says, now you're not doing mail right now, you're going to be a producer, you're going to produce my CD. And I'm like, wow.

Six months in the studio later, with $2,000 of taxpayer money and musical contributions from the mail room on up through county social workers, and they had their CD. It's worth pointing out that before he'd worked in the mail room, Keith had actually been on government assistance himself back when he was struggling to make it as a musician and in between gigs. Yeah, I mean, I received full stamps, you know, but that was just something that I needed until I became gainfully important. That was not anything that I wanted to depend upon.

It was temporary not a way of life. Oh, I knew it wasn't a way of life. Oh, I knew it wasn't way of life. Try to live off flu stamps. Keith was already on board with the message that getting a job was important and he was game to spread the word. You know, you're hearing that

hearing and being pumped all over in the system here and then you might call at some of the welfare offices and, you know, they put you on hold. Yeah, well, fair is a temporary way of life. And I'm thinking, you know, put you on a whole year. Well fair is a temporary way of life. And I'm thinking you know you play certain things over and over again. It does have a subliminal effect.

It's like, hey guess what? I want to find his job. And whether it was the songs themselves or the buttons, the billboards, the bumper stickers, the job clubs, or the jobs first strategy all together. Somehow Larry's plan in Riverside seemed to work. The results in Riverside were the most impressive we had ever seen in a welfare to work program up to that time. This is sociologist James Ricchio again.

He was actually hired by the government to study Riverside's Jobs First Program. His team followed the families who participated, tracked what happened to them for five years, and compared that to what happened to families who stayed on the plain old welfare program, where they just got checks, no job clubs, or job pep talks. Turns out the ones who participated in the jobs first program, five years later, they were doing way better. On average, had earnings that were 42% higher than those who were assigned to the control group. They were making 42% more money than the families who hadn't gotten any of the jobs first stuff.

James also compared the people who went through the jobs first program in Riverside to people who lived in other parts of the state that emphasized education first. And the Riverside jobs first group came out on top in that comparison too. Five years later, they were employed more and had higher wages than the education first group. And because of all of this? Larry Townsend, the director, became a kind of star in this narrow world of welfare reform. But this narrow world of welfare reform was about to widen and play a very big role on the national stage.

And Larry's get a job, any job approach for welfare recipients became known as... Riverside Miracle, the Riverside Miracle. The Riverside Department of Social Services received an award from the Harvard Kennedy School of Government, and the Riverside Miracle got a lot of attention on the national news. And I'll just read a few quotes here. From the New York Times, no program has done as much to raise the earnings of people on welfare as one here in Riverside County. And from the LA Times, Riverside is pursuing a notion so obvious as to be stupifying.

If you want to get people off welfare, stay on their backs until they get a job. They call me the Magic bureaucrat or something,. It was an editorial, a whole page. But I figured I'd just believe it was the lower the top. Larry has a framed copy of the editorial, hanging in his house. But in all the news coverage, Larry's thoughts about the welfare system sometimes revealed a more aggressive tone than the one

you hear in those songs. In one article from 1993, he says that every time he sees a bag lady on the street, he wonders if it's a mother on welfare who quote, hit the menopause wall, who can no longer reproduce and get money to support herself. I asked him about this quote. Please don't go there. Well, it is out in the public record. I just wanted to give you an opportunity to. And out in the record, eons ago, no, I don't know about

the deed to clarify it further. Well, since we're going into history, you know, we, the part, part, this whole story is about the history of the... I'd say you've done your job in that regard. So Larry clearly did not want to talk about this, but I still wanted to know whether he ever worried some of his welfare to work rhetoric might be hurtful to people. There is this tricky territory, it seems like in discussions around this

where there can be stereotypes that come up or feelings of judgment. The example that that talks about, it was a concept where I was concerned about ladies getting into an unfortunate situation and nobody ever helped them to discover how good they are. And that's all he wanted to say. Regardless of what you think about Larry's opinion of work

and work ethics and how that applies to who's on welfare and why, the fact is these opinions were widely embraced 20 years ago. Eventually Larry's story, his Riverside miracle, started getting noticed in political arenas. The results in Riverside influenced thinking among Republicans and Democrats. And then he will come to order, This is one of a continuing series. And in the years leading up to welfare reform, Larry flew to Washington DC five different times to testify before Congress, as they debated how to restructure this some $16 billion program.

If we have heard anything from the witnesses to date, it is work, work, work. That that will work better than anything else we might consider to attempt to cure the, what we would regard as the failure of a welfare in the United States. That's Republican Senator Bob Packwood from Oregon in 1995, just a year before welfare reform legislation would be signed into law. In Packwood's eyes, the Riversideide miracle would be the key to fixing welfare. Mr. Lawrence Townsend, who's the director of the Department of Public Social Services in Riverside, one of the outstanding success examples in the country, Mr. Townsend. And there Larry was in a dark suit with a big blue button pinned to his lapel

that read, Self-Sufficiency is supporting yourself. Thank you honorable chairman. Backward. Larry told the senators all about his welfare to work program and Riverside all the ways he had enlisted his staff to promote it. If you call Riverside County and nobody answers the phone, they'll get a work ethic message. We have posters in the waiting room. We have produced a compact disc with work ethic music. Identify very much work ethic music. Now we've gone commercial and we've produced a compact disc and we started a new singing group called the Ethics. You sing high-hole high-hole, it's off to work we go or what? You sing high-hole high-hole, it's off to work, we go, or what?

But eventually the laughter would die down, and the senators would come to take Larry's methods and philosophy just as seriously as he did. Larry's dismissal of educating welfare recipients as a waste of money and time, his emphasis on getting a job, any job? Both of those ideas show up in various ways in the welfare reform bill that Congress passed and President Clinton signed in 1996. It had a name that Larry would approve of. The Personal Responsibility and Work Opportunity Reconciliation Act. But just a few years after this change was made,

it came to light that the thing that all of this reform was based on, the Riverside miracle. It turned out it wasn't a miracle after all. The just get a job approach wasn't the magic fix that everyone wanted it to be. Unfortunately, it wasn't that simple. In the early 2000s, Joe Hutz, the Duke economist, he and two other researchers checked back in on what had happened

to the welfare recipients who'd gone through the Riverside job first program, and they compared their circumstances to folks who'd gone through other programs in counties like LA and Alameda that had focused on education and training. What we found was that, yes, indeed, work first, work better in the first few years out of the treatment. But by years seven and eight and nine. Actually, the effect reversed. Meaning the people who'd gotten more education, more skills training, rather than being

told with buttons and songs and slogans to just get a job, any job, they were doing better. They were more likely to be still in work. They were making slightly more money. And less likely to return to welfare. The effects of the Riverside miracle had all but disappeared. Joe says the Riverside miracle had less to do with Larry's work first tactics and more to do with the fact that in Riverside back then, there was a booming job market for low skilled workers. This plan doesn't work in places where there aren't a lot of low skilled jobs.

When there aren't jobs out there, you can have all the job clubs you want, right? You can have them calling as many employers as you want. It's not going to change the fact that there aren't no jobs. And by the late 90s, there was very, very little of this kind of labor. Even in Riverside, it turns out a better name for the Riverside Miracle might have been. It's not as catchy, but maybe it's something like the Riverside short-term spike in the labor market that was a fluke and Loud more jobs for a while Something like that. Yeah, that that's probably not gonna get a sound bite the Riverside miracle did not look like a miracle nine years later

It didn't put people on a trajectory that was going to last a lifetime. But this discovery that maybe climbing out of poverty in an unpredictable economy takes more than job clubs and songs, that did not get the same kind of media play as the Riverside miracle had gotten. Because in the meantime, the ship had already left the dock. The Riverside miracle had inspired a whole raft of federal welfare reform legislation based on the get a job, any job, work first mantra, and collectively changed how we think about welfare. Today we are ending welfare as we know it.

And the thought of revisiting and restructuring welfare, again, just wasn't something that the federal government or the states that ran welfare to work programs had the political will to deal with anymore. Because their view was, oh, we took care of this back in 1994 and 1995, and we don't need to revisit it. It wouldn't be till later that the weaknesses of the get a job, any job, welfare to work approach revealed themselves on a big, painful scale. In the great recession that started in 2008, when job markets crashed all over the country,

especially for low wage workers. Joe says the Riverside miracle had been such a tantalizing, low-cost, quick fix to poverty, get people off welfare and into self-sufficiency, just inspire them, tell them to get jobs. It was a hard approach to let go of. Unfortunately, after a while we realized these problems are age-old. It's, um, if it were that simple, we would have solved it much earlier. Unfortunately, it wasn't that simple.

And the people who went through the Riverside miracle are still dealing with the better suite aftermath. Okay, so we have to, and coral. After going through the Riverside Jobs Program more than 20 years ago, Sophia Ellsman has been off welfare ever since. For the last decade, she's worked in this plus size dress shop. She's the store manager in charge of a small staff and figuring out where to put the pink sweaters so they don't clash with the coral ones.

But this coral here with this set looks good. The fact that Sophia has a job is evidence that the Riverside Jobs First Program did have its successes. In fact, she was featured in a newspaper article in the early 90s as an example of the Riverside miracle. But for a woman in her 50s, she has a physically taxing job. She's on her feet all day dragging racks of clothes

from here to there. My hands are screwed up now. I beg your pardon. And for all this, she makes less than $15 an hour. Sophia lived up to the Riverside program's name. Gain. She found greater avenues for independence. But I asked her, do you consider yourself a gain success story?

She thought for a long time. Yes, and no, she said, and then she corrected herself. You know what, to tell you the truth, you know, I've been working for, like, since I was 14 years old. The work requirements, the job clubs, they were actually a bit of a distraction, she says. She'd already had low wage jobs and she knew how to get them. I felt like it was more hindrance to me. Like, gain was a hindrance? Yes, because I had to go there. But I did what I had to do because they said I had to do it, so I did it.

Sophia has moved out of poverty and off of government assistance, but she says she would have done that anyway. Wellfare was just a temporary bit of help she needed when she and her husband split up. But two decades later, she hasn't moved that far out of poverty. Things are still tight. And rather than getting pep talks to find a job, any job, she wishes she'd had encouragement to get the training to do what she really wanted. I want to be a job, any job. She wishes she'd had encouragement to get the training to do what she really wanted. I want to be a nurse.

Probably if I got offered, the opportunity to go back to school, right now I could be in a hospital, being an RN. Making a lot more than $15 an hour. A longer version of this story was originally heard on the Uncertain Hour, a new podcast from Marketplace's Wealth and Poverty Desk. It's really good, you should check it out. The Uncertain Hour is Chrissy Clark, Caitlin Ash, Gina Delvack, and Nancy Fargali.

Ben Tulliday is the engineer, and Mark Miller is the managing editor. editor. 99% Invisible is Shereef Usef, Avery Trufflement, Delaney Hall, Katie Minglecourt, Colestead, Sam Greenspan, and me Roman Mars. We are a project 91.7K ALW San Francisco and produced on Radio Row. In beautiful, downtown, Oakland, California. If you're anything like the people work in our office, you still have the welfare to work jingles stuck in your head. Well, luckily, I have the cure. Last week, one of my favorite artists, P.O.S., of the unstoppable Doom Tree Collective dropped a new track, and he named Chex Me, Roman Mars, at about the two-minute mark. It's the coolest thing that's ever happened

to me, so I'm gonna play it for you. I'm leaving the song unbleaped. So this is your warning you cool babies This is Wayne and Bear by Minneapolis's own POS I'm not a man, I'm not a man I'm not a man, I'm not a man I'm not a man, I'm not a man I'm not a man, I'm not a man I'm not a man, I'm not a man I'm not a man, I'm not a man I'm not a man, I'm not a man I'm not a man, I'm not a man I'm not a man, I'm not a man

I'm not a man, I'm not a man I'm not a man, I'm not a man I'm not a man, I'm not a man I'm not a man, I'm not a man demeanor of a bomb pop, chilling in a pool with a bomb pop Tripping on a sport finger, jewels on give a fuck Beats about the shit that's bugging you, and watch the news Then realize not to the fear rising by who exactly do I gotta kill Just shouts y'all, I pass if it's my anarchist

National distraction, so I break my will, got me strolling in the infinite Here we're getting into it, hatched tag, black lives Some of y'all indifferent Some of y'all don't give a shit Some of y'all don't fuck with it Some of y'all got racism Was all because the president was black Smack dab in the middle of the smack and dab in the zones

In the lab trying to change the y'all pience Our ambiance keep the ambulance Andy peep the battle stands to champ Your boy ain't candy put up You got some and skiddle up my tiger mitt In the spot wearing a bear, I am revenue Punch it in your Googler, check Mary and Webster I'ma hit the road, tryna hang with tiny professor and hard r

And full cards on these lame nards, tryna catch a Garfield Easily great charm, looking like a fist bite Smile like a break life, eyes all frown, believe words not fit right Tripped to me and slipped to me, I'm tryna spit the plan hammer in the right Hell of snacks in the other hand Trouble in the double sack, medicine the train Stubbles in the way back, running from the lynch man Handled at counter-axe fields, 2020 future

Yeah, yeah, scalpel, suture, new guns locked in Potter and the abdomen, thanks for the spot Holy living up the map again, catch-gratch feverish Seven-year itchy with a bag full of bullfeting on ditty Couple dollars in a full tank shifty Manou Samaroli and Roman Marsas whipin' yeah Whip-whipin' but bendin' the corners up Ah! Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah Fifth gear and flip, fist in the...

Okay, okay, okay, we got it Yeah, whip-whipin' but bendin, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, rip, P-O-S! Waring a bear by P-O-S. You can buy it right now on iTunes. His 2012 album We Don't Even Live Here is one of my favorites of all time. You have to get it. We'll have a link on our website. It's 99p i dot org. Radio to P i. From P r x.

Thanks.