99% Invisible - 533- Dear John and Roman

Episode Date: April 19, 2023

Last year, Roman Mars teamed up with Hank Green to guest host Dear Hank & John -- this year he's back on the Greens' show once again, but this time with Hank's brother John Green (Turtles All the Way Down, The Fault in Our Stars, The Anthropocene Reviewed).In their podcast Dear Hank & John, "hosts John and Hank Green (who are also best-selling authors and pioneering YouTubers) offer both humorous and heartfelt advice about life’s big and small questions. They bring their personal passions to each episode by sharing the week’s news from Mars (the planet) and AFC Wimbledon (the third-tier English football club)."This week, guest host Roman Mars joins the show to discuss things like: Are roaches a moral failing? How do they do surgery on a fish? Why do only old people like stinky cheese?  

This is not 99% invisible, but I am Roman Mars. Dear Hank and John is a podcast where two brothers, Hank Green and John Green, answer questions and give dubious advice. And if I am in a car with my kids, it is the thing we are listening to. I love it, I learn a lot, it makes me laugh, it gets my kids talking, which is amazing. Last year I finagled my way onto the show and podcasted with the best-selling author YouTuber, podcaster, educator, and marvelous human Hank Green, and we had an excellent time answering questions about chickens and space and other sundry topics.

I am delighted to say that I had the opportunity to return to the show this week, but this time I was paired with the best-selling author, YouTuber, podcaster, educator, and marvelous human, John Green. His other podcast, and most recent book is called The Anthropocene Reviewed. It is everything I love about everything. If you like 90-IPI, you will love The Anthropocene Reviewed. But in the meantime, here's me guest hosting Dear Hank and John, with John Green. Enjoy. Hello and welcome to Dear Hank and John, or as I prefer to think of it, dear John and Roman Mars, that's right. It's a podcast where John, your second favorite green brother, is joined by your very favorite podcast host, Roman Mars, to answer your questions,

give you Dubies Advice and bring you all the weeks news from both Mars and AFC Wimbledon. Roman, you're the host of 99% Invisible. One of my favorite podcasts of all time. Oh, thank you. How come you keep coming on dear Hank and John? Yeah. Because this is one of my favorite podcasts of all time.

This is my family's podcast. Like so, the twins, when I have them in the car, we pull up to Dear Hank and John. And when the question comes up, they know I hate it when people talk over the podcasts. So they reach forward, because I can't listen to two things at once. I've gotten old, you know, like I, and they reach forward, they reach forward and they hit pause on the little

console. And they'll answer the question before you have a chance to answer it. And they go, I think I know this. And then, and this is just a part of our life. So, so dear Hank, Thomas is very important to me. So I'm really honored to be here. Well, we are thrilled that you're here. The last time you were here, and we don't usually bring this kind of thing up at the beginning of the podcast, but something extraordinary has happened that I need to inform you about. The last time you were here, you and Hank were chatting about remind me exactly what it was. It was how many chickens would need to be in space

before humans would notice. Is that correct? I think it was something like that. Like I don't recall it. Perfectly, great. So we have received the following email from Rachel that I simply cannot wait to tell you about. Dear John and Hank, here in the astronomy community,

we take two things very seriously, knowing everything that is in space and April Fool's Day. For this April Fool's Day, I roped a postdoc friend of mine into doing some math in order to answer the question that Hank and Roman Mars recently examined. How many chickens would there need to be in space before we would notice? This resulted in a scientific paper, Roman, called Nuggets of Wisdom, which is a good point. There's a lot of good puns in this paper, but I would just like to read you one sentence

from the abstract and one sentence from the introduction. The abstract begins, the lower limit on the chicken density function, CDF, of the observable universe was recently determined to be approximately 10 to the 21 chickens per par sec. For over a year, however, the scientific community has struggled to determine the upper limit to the CDF. So we know the lower limit to the CDF, but what is the upper limit to the CDF? And then the introduction begins as follows, the chicken density function CDF entered the scientific spotlight in a March 2022 episode when a listener of the podcast, dear Hank and John wrote in with a question, the rest of the paper is epic.

There's so much math. I can't read it. I don't know what any of this stuff means. But the conclusion I don't know what any of this stuff means, but the conclusion is that there would need to be about 10 to the 18th power chickens inside the orbit of the earth for us to start noticing. Wow. That's a lot of chickens, very close to the earth. I know. That's a lot of chickens. I was also surprised.

Good. I thought it would be, I thought it would be maybe in the hundreds of thousands, but then I was also surprised. Good. I thought it would be, I thought it would be maybe in the hundreds of thousands, but then no, you could put a lot of check in the orphan before it would start to block our view. Oh, that is amazing. Oh, what a great, what a great way to start this episode. We're never gonna, we're never gonna reach those heights, unfortunately. So I hope you enjoyed listening to Dear John and Roman.

Everything after this is gonna be a disappointment. Oh, I love it. All right, so good. You're an expert in architecture and sort of the built world. Okay, yeah, maybe. So I wanted to ask you this question about an apartment. Dear John and Roman, is it a moral failing to find a living roach in my apartment? Does a cockroach show up because I haven't cleaned thoroughly enough as if to lecture me

before I kill it or do they just wander in because they happen to be in the neighborhood? Do I have to vacuum and scrub every surface now that I have seen this roach not trapped in the metamorphosis? Rebecca. Hmm. I would say it is not a moral failing at all. Agree, but oh, maybe you haven't cleaned thoroughly enough. Oh, I think that's victim blaming. Oh, I think that's victim blaming. No, I just know that it isn't the fault, like, it isn't because you haven't cleaned enough, but if you want to never have a roach again, you should clean like all the time and get rid of like all the crumbs and all the like don't leave dog food out and things

like that. You know, like there's a, that's a, it's a way, it's part of the tactical warfare when it comes to con-roaches, but they will get there everywhere. They're everywhere. They'll be at the very end right before they heat death of the universe. They'll be there. I think they come in, and I take this quite personally because it's an ongoing argument in our family whether the primary reason why we might have bugs or other non-human animals

inside of our home is because of a failure in the architecture, which is what I maintain, like that there are little gaps that allow the roaches to come in. I don't know where they are. I don't think the roaches are born inside the house, you know? Well. And so I think that's the failing. And Sarah maintains the failing is that I am filth. That's the failing.

And so I was really asking Rebecca's question as a kind of proxy question to you. And I don't like your answer. I do not think that you could construct a house so tight as to not have a cockroach be able to wind its way through it. not have a cockroach be able to wind its way through it. But you could just pick up after yourself, John. You really could. Yeah, no, I mean, I don't want to disagree with you guys. It's just respect you a lot. I think if you have a friend, but you definitely could construct a house, I don't know if that I know you could because like you can you can make a box like you

could make a box that a a road to get into a house is essentially a very large box. But if you wanted sort of a hermetically sealed you know like white room in which you you know do your viral research or whatever it is yeah you could probably avoid any roaches. That's otherwise. That's what I want. So that I could be as dirty as I want.

I don't want to do it for viral research. I want to keep smallpox inside the room or whatever. I just want to be able to be the person I want to be in the space I want to be in without risking a roach. Yeah. I want to be in without risking a road. I mean, have you considered putting a box inside the box like your own great idea, your own space? Just wow, if we pitch that idea to Sarah, she'll be like, amazing.

I love it. If you've given them a little box in the corner where he can go and eat, drop all of his crumbs, let him just let him just sneak into his little box whenever he wants to eat. And then he can come out when he's done. He could pile all the dishes in there that he wants to pile. That's fine because that's his box. That's right. It's the only answer.

All right. I think we've come to a conclusion, Rebecca. You just need to build a hermetically sealed box inside of your apartment. Dear Roman and John, I know a species is considered native if it is in a certain region due only to natural evolution, but is there a specific amount of time after which a species can be considered native? Is the definition of native species exclusively related to human interference or could animals or other causes, such as natural disaster, displacement species, also make a species non-native. Also, is there such a thing as a plant being considered culturally native? For

example, ornstries being a significant part of a Spanish culture despite not being native to Spain? Curious to know more to Chi. That's a really good name, specific sign off more to Chi. It is. It's very good. What do you think? Well, I have a strong opinion about this because I live in Indianapolis, which, depending on your definition of native species, how far back does it go? This is the first question, because if it goes back over 12,000 years, there's no native species to Indiana other than ice, because all of this was covered by a glacier that was like 4,000 feet thick. And maybe there was some moss and stuff, but there weren't any like big, big parties.

But I am particularly fascinated by this tree called the Ginkgo tree, the Ginkgo below above. And there were no Ginkgo trees in Indianapolis until about 120 years ago. In fact, not to brag, but the first ginkgo tree in Indianapolis was planted by Kurt Vonnegut's great, great grandfather, and I get to walk past it sometimes. So the ginkgo is an invasive species in the sense that it's not native to Indianapolis, except, except until two million years ago, there were ginkgo trees right here along the banks of the way.

I remember. Interesting. So it's not a native tree, but it also is a native tree. I think, and I'm interested to get your perspective. Yeah, yeah. But I think that when we think of, like I've been talking to a lot of Horticulturalist people lately because we're planting a bunch of trees around Here to try to even the score. I've caused a lot of you have to you've caused a lot of trees to be cut down for enough and

I think I don't I don't like to get too much into my religious beliefs, but I think that's a significant impediment to getting into heaven. And so I'm trying to plant some trees to even the score a little bit. So the St. Peter won't be so pissed off with me when I get up there. And I've one of the things that I've learned, at least in talking to these these these landscapey people, is that I tend to think of native or non-native as being, in terms of plants as being a dichotomy, like a light switch that's either on or off, but they think of it much more as a spectrum, which I tend to find is the case with a lot of experts,

like things that I think of as a layperson, as dichotomous, people who are experts in the field tend to think of as a lay person, as dichotomous, people who are experts in the field tend to think of as spectral. Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. Especially with this idea that the ginkgo could be kind of grandfathered in, or Kurt Vonnegut's grandfathered in too, or into our understanding since it existed.

Well, before humans and then was introduced later. I mean, the simple explanation of what non-native is is if humans weren't involved, it's native and if humans were, it's native. But I can see how that would be. It is a little bit of a false dichotomy when it comes to how we operate in the world. And definitely, chance events with animal distribution and whatever, animal law, when distribution could introduce something to an area, which is a stunning achievement, and just because it's not a human, doesn't mean it's not sort of remarkable and sort of unique in it, in the way that it

would invade would be exactly the same. So I think this is fascinating. I'm not sure. We're not the only weird species and activity moving things around. For sure. Like when, when, oh my god, I'm going to, this is like a deep pull, so it might be completely wrong. But I love that. That's, hey, that's what this podcast is all about Roman deep, deep cuts that might be wrong, but we're not going to

be sure. But basically, like up until the point that people realize that, you know, plate tectonics, that the continents moved around. There was a great amount of study to justify the movement of, you know, plant and animal species across these very, you know, like far-flung continents. And it was so advanced, like, you know, like, I'd say recall this story very distant from my education. Like a large book just came out at the very moment, It's I recall this story very distant from my education.

Like a large book just came out at the very moment right before plate tectonics that was like describing in like in great detail how all the animals and plants made it. It was like the unified theory of movement. And then like a year later, geologists were like, okay, so here's the thing. Yeah, there may be a simple explanation than this like 1400 page theory of everything. And then all of a sudden,

the distribution made more sense because the things were on the land and as it moved along and glaciers came and all that sort of stuff. And so the point being is like, you can get very, I mean, islands are obviously populated by things that feel just as like extreme interventionist as a human, that land on a place, and it is not natural that it lands there, but it is natural that it lands there. And I like to think of myself as not so much separate from nature as a part of nature.

Yeah, right, right. Like we think of ourselves as being artificial, even though we are made out of earth and everything inside of us is earth. That's right. We're not that artificial of an intelligence as artificiality goes. You know what your story, and I don't know if you know this

about me lately, but I like to relate everything to the history of human responses to tuberculosis and your story about plate tectonics reminds me of the story about tuberculosis, which means that I have to tell it. And I'm extremely sorry, but so this guy Robert Koch is the guy who is finally proved to at least to the to the lots of people already knew that tuberculosis was a contagious disease like like lots people in the Americas and and in parts of Asia, but in northern Europe, especially it was really seen as having had to be inherited because it went with all these personality traits, these sort of personality traits we associate with or we associated with

civilization like intelligence and emotional sensitivity and just sort of being like a John Keatsy type of character. And so in 1881 this medical textbook was published that had a whole chapter on the so-called like a consumptive personality. Like, what kinds of people were inevitably going to get consumption? And it was the same thing where it was like this kind of theory of everything that explained every case of consumption that anybody could possibly get as associated with like this personality trait or else. Like that thing happening in childhood or your parents did this or whatever. And then literally the next year, Robert Coke was like,

non-pre assurances bacteria. I found it. Here's a picture of it. I think it's that. Which yeah, like rendered like the biggest medical textbook in northern Europe, totally out of date. Yeah. In six months. Love it. Love it. It's not even that good of a tuberculosis story. It's just that I know it and I want you to know it.

I'm one of the people who, maybe I'm the one person who cheers when a tuberculosis story, a tuberculosis story. Like, it starts to come up on a dear Hank and John. I'm like, more. I just can't believe it. I still cannot, I cannot believe. I cannot believe that tuberculosis is at the center of human history

in such dramatic obvious ways from the stethoscope to the cowboy hat to the existence of the state of New Mexico. But I also, I cannot, on like a more serious, like less, like funny, haha note, I cannot believe that 40 million people have died of tuberculosis in this century, and I didn't know any of them. I thought that like tuberculosis was a disease of the past. So I think like my obsession with tuberculosis is really about like my confoundedness of thinking

of myself as a reasonably engaged person and certainly an engaged person when it comes to potential health problems. And yet, I just had no idea. So it's so like, it's just, it really has reoriented my understanding of the world. Well, I love that stuff. All right, let's move on to another question.

I will do my best and not related to tuberculosis. This is about an old Instagram account, which Robert Koch did, did, no idea. All right, let's move on to another question. I will do my best and not related to tuberculosis. This is about an old Instagram account, which Robert Koch did. No, he didn't. All right, Missy asks, dear John and Roman, I have an old Instagram account that I forgot the password to a couple of years ago that has quite a few followers and a couple of thousand posts in parentheses. It was a Finstah.

Now we should stop here. What is a Finstah do you know? I have no idea. Okay. What is a, what is a Fence to, do you know? I have no idea. Okay. What could it be? Could it be a financial Instagram? Like, were you used to raise money? Like a go fund of me? Fence to.

I mean, that sounds like that to me, because like Fence tech is like financial tech and stuff like that. Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's what I was thinking. Yeah. All right, we'll just assume that. It was a fenced. There are some things that I've said on that account that totally are not reflective of who I am today and that I'm not proud of. Like, did you raise money via a lie?

It doesn't matter. That's the point is that Missy said things that they're not proud of. I don't know the email, it's linked to, it was probably a fake one, nor the phone number. So basically it's up forever. What do I do if I get famous and successful in these old posts from when I was 14 to 18? the email, it's linked to, it was probably a fake one, nor the phone number. So basically it's up forever. What do I do if I get famous and successful in these old posts from when I was 14 to 18

and stupid get surfaced? Definitely going to be canceled, missing. Oh, God. I mean, I really, I would like to say like, I'm so grateful I don't have this problem, but I might. I think everyone is going to have it soon. I'm terrified. I mean, I'm really scared of it. Like I also said a lot of things, Missy, when I was younger and not just 18. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I like that do not reflect who I am today. Right? Like I think that's that's that's

the hope, right? Is that you're not the same person at 45 that you were at 25 or 15. Absolutely. But there is a way that the internet sort of like turns things into a, and well, first off, like, you know, like I guess it makes sense to be held accountable for like being that person on some level. But like the internet kind of turns things into a,

I feel this with publishing to a little bit, it turns things into like a, like time stops. Like I get older, but those a little bit. It turns things into like time stops. Like I get older, but those books don't. Like I grow up and my books don't. And that's part of why people like my books because now if I wrote some of those older books, I would be, they would be way less good, but way more mature.

You know, you would have thought through the problems and then, you know, and like, and totally cut them off at the past, you would have thought through the problems and then, you know, and like, I totally cut them off at the past, you know, like, yeah, yeah, yeah, totally 50 pages long. Right. It would be like a, it would be like a 60 page book where you go like, fuck up. Where? The whole, the whole, the whole thing. Maybe more of like, hey, don't make these bad choices.

Okay. Why are you romanticizing this girl? Just don't do it. See mature, man. Yeah. So I would be much pre-seer and much more like a dad, which would probably make the books worse. But that's who I am now. And I'm much more proud of this person. Anyway, the point is like, I don't know, how do you deal with this? Because you've been a public person for a long time. Yeah. How do you deal with it?

Oh. The one story that comes to mind is I did a tweet during the height of this sort of democratic nomination when it was Barack Obama versus Hillary Clinton. And my tweet was 2008. 2008, my tweet was something like, I met a die hard Hillary person and it was kind of weird. Cause at that point I had,

I was always surrounded by Barack Obama people, okay. And then there was some Twitter meme, eight years later, that was kind of like, hey, go find an eight-year-old tweet and repost it, you know. And it just so happens, eight years later, Hillary Clinton was running against Donald Trump. And this tweet resurfaced and people were like, oh, what the hell? Oh, no, no, no, no. And I was so, and it was like, the thing was just so innocent, because at the time, it was just like,

it was really like this cool, it was actually kind of a cool anomaly. Like I met like an organizer for Hillary, it was kind of weird, you know, like because you didn't, yeah, you didn't mean it as an insult. It's just like, it was kind of surprising to you coming from the world that you came from,

that there were like, because I think my parents were like this in 2008. They were like Hillary Clinton supporters, but not like aggressive about it. Right, right. They weren't like knocking on doors. And at the time, there was so much energy for Barack Obama. I was just like, yeah, that was what I was,

that was the C I was swimming in. And so anyway. I was just like, you know, like that was what I was the the see I was swimming in, you know, and so so anyway, so this is like my mild version of this and it was extremely uncomfortable to try to explain that and with some kind of nuance when it seemed like, you know, a choice was about to be made that was going to destroy the world, you do, and since then, I think over time, I have removed more of my personality and my takes on things just in general as a protective measure. Yeah, because I should do that, but I can't stop. I need to stop, but I can't stop. And I really do focus on positive things, you know, Like, and I just hope that, that doesn't get taken poorly. I don't know, it's just sort of like,

right, right, I don't know. Cause you don't wanna seem like a polyanna, like everything's golden. Yeah, I think what the internet is missing is hope. And like a kind of, like I think the most punk rock thing in the world right now is earnest earnestness and optimism. Yeah, I agree.

Yeah. They're so radically counter cultural, totally, totally. And so I think that is what the internet needs. But then sometimes when I'm doing that, I think, am I going to come across as somebody who's oblivious to the world's problems. Like even when I was writing the Anthropocene Review, I was super conscious of that because I was like, I remember I was writing the intro and I was like,

I want this to be about this desire to fall in love with the world, but then I was like, oh, but that's gonna seem like I don't care about injustice. And I think like everything's like beautiful and amazing on earth and, you know, and that's not how I feel, of course. Like I think it's a complicated story. And then, but then you're, yeah. So I really struggled with finding the way through that.

How do you be earnestly hopeful while still acknowledging the reality, not just of suffering, but also of the unjust distribution of suffering? Absolutely. It is so hard to represent yourself thoroughly and completely. And it's just your hope is that, you know, if this finsta, whatever that is, is discovered. It's sort of taken totality with everything else that you've produced and made. And, you know, there is a habit of, when people get into arguments, it's easier to land a blow on someone

who is more like you, who would feel your admonishment than someone who is so different from you, they do not care that you, they hate you or whatever, or you hate them. And so it creates a kind of thinking of like an E.O. Wilson Valley, where the evolution is very hard to sort of like skip over because it's so painful to change. You get hurt by the people you like the most during that period of time or whatever. And so, I'm sympathetic to this and hopefully, well, I mean, now everyone's going to be trying to find Mrs. Finsta. But it sounds like it's going to be pretty hard since Missy doesn't know the name of the email address associated with the

Finto or the password. But that's all. But like we have, don't we have to kind of forgive ourselves? Don't we have to kind of forgive 14 year olds? Absolutely. Because they're 14? Absolutely. And to some extent, like I know that I know that that's not a blanket statement, but like we have to acknowledge that these people's brains are getting formed and they are capable of change and in fact will and need to change. Totally.

And it should be celebrated when it does happen and not sort of taking the task. But I'm sensitive to the idea of this sort of like reaction to cancel culture, which is a thing I don't fundamentally Believe exists in the way that is presented a lot of the time right and and so it's just one of those really really tricky things and what I would recommend is just like be out there be good be a good person in the world and In this type of stuff will hopefully never be discovered.

And if it ever is, part of the story is that you become this new person, which is super important. Yeah. And in a way, I think the argument that becoming that new person doesn't erase the hurt that you may have caused, or the hurt that you did cause is important to acknowledge as well. And that's part of the way that the kind of conversation around so-called cancel culture, I think, gets really off track, is that it needs to allow for both of these realities, both the reality that people grow and change, and the reality that people can cause harm and then grow and change and that

harm is still real. Totally. It's such a mess. I just don't, I feel sorry for anyone who had to navigate it. Very, very young. Yeah. I mean, exactly like to be, to be a, yeah, I don't even, when I was 18 years old, I don't, I don't remember. I don't remember what I was like. I wasn't great. I smoked a lot of cigarettes. Sarah went to the same high school I did. So she sort of remembers me from high school. And she's like, the only thing I really remember about you

is that you kind of smelled really stale smoke. And you were sort of cute, but mostly because he seemed like trouble. And that's like so different from my personality now. Like nobody would like see me today and be like he's sort of hot but only because he seems like trouble. Yeah that's a real 180 right there. Yeah nobody nobody on earth seems like less trouble. That is intimidating as a goldfish that's left its bowl. I'm clearly not in the environment in which I thrive if there even is such a thing. Totally.

All right. I like that we're answering questions very slowly and not that many of them. That's my, it's Hanks Lee's favorite kind of, hey, dear Hankajon, but it's my favorite. Oh, good. Good. Well, I'm here to say. I think it's going to be okay about this Finsta, but to be fair, we don't really know what a Finsta is, so it might not be okay.

I wish I could give you like a blanket, blanket reassurance. Maybe it's a fascist insta account, maybe then you would have some problems. Yeah. Yeah. But, you know. I hope there's not a whole genre of fenced, like I've heard the word fenced it before.

And if it was all about fascism, I think I would know that. Yeah, okay. I think it's about fundraising. All right. And if you fundraise under like a false pretense, man, that's not great, but why don't you afford, you were 14, you should apologize, try to make back the money

and give it back. Agreed. Kiwa asks, dear John and Roman, someone I love very much is going through a tough grieving process. His girlfriend, the love of his life, suddenly had to move for work and no one knows when she'll come back. He's having a very hard time with her absence and no one knows when she'll come back. Can you call her? Yeah. Yeah. He's having a very hard time. Did she go to space?

He's having a very hard time with her absence and can't understand why she has left her where she has gone. What does he call her? Yeah. Or that she will be back eventually. How can I help him in this trying time? Important context, he is a horse. Oh, okay. she will be back eventually. How can I help him in this trying time? Important context, he is a horse. Oh, okay, well there we go. There we go. He's a horse. He's a horse, of course.

He's a horse. Okay. His girlfriend is another horse who went away to training for a while. He doesn't understand English other than his name and the words no and good boy. Doesn't he understand like, what what's the what do you say? Giddy up. Does he understand giddy up? Yeah. What's the other one you say?

Halt. Oh, whoa. Whoa. Whoa. Something like that. Whoa, whoa. It's whoa. You say whoa. Yeah. Kewa, you've come to the right place in addition to being fins to experts, Roman and I are clearly equestrian. No, boys. Roman proof. Dangerous. Dangerous. Dangerous, boys. All the written dangerous.

Remember about you is the stale smell of cigarette smoke, a little bit of danger, and how you wrote that horse. If there's anybody on earth who looks less comfortable on a horse than I do, I haven't met them. All right, Kewa, we've got a horse problem. This is a bummer. I remember this happened when there was a period in my life where I had two dogs, but one of the dogs died. And it was awful.

Like because the other dog was just confused and heartbroken and I felt like, I mean, maybe I was, maybe the Zanthropomorphizing, but I felt like the other dog was like, why did you take away my best friend? Yeah, yeah. And I'm like, they didn't like, they didn't get to like go through the grieving, they didn't like see the death, they didn't, you know,

they weren't like, so they were just, I think they were just confused and, and, and super sad. Yeah. I don't have a solution for this. I just thought it was sad. Yeah. Or alternatively, maybe they view all absences as death, like a kind of like, oh, like a fundamental object impermanence type of thing that they just like. But then sometimes death is followed by rebirth and then other times it isn't. Oh, shhh, shhh, shhh. I mean, the thing is when it comes to this stuff

is like you can never address the true problem, but addressing the symptoms is pretty good, which is touch your horse, you know, be with your horse, do things with your horse, and there will be fleeting moments in which they will not feel this pain. And that's the, you know, then that's the best you can do. And it probably is the best anyone can do, then that's if that's the best you can do and it probably is the best anyone can do then that's what you should do. That's also probably the best that we can usually do for each other. You know, is is a accompaniment. Yeah. Like can't solve this problem for you because it's not solvable. Yeah. And also you don't need me to solve it because you already know that it's unsolvable. And so my attempts to like solve it or minimize it are not actually what you need. What you actually need is just

accompaniment. Yeah. Yeah. Just to not be so alone. Yeah. I'm agree. Yeah. I know this chaplain, Vanessa Zoltan, who's also a great podcast host. And she told me a story once about being with somebody in the midst of like terrible, terrible crisis and loss. And this person saying something like like my life will never be the same. And instead of saying like, well, you know, in time, it'll get better. The NASA said, I know. And like just the acknowledgement of the hugeness of what was happening is more of a gift than trying to minimize somebody's experience or some horse's experience.

And the good news is is you get to spend a lot of time with a horse and this seems like a nice horse. Yeah. Yeah, it seems like a good horse with big feelings, which my kind of horse. I like an emotionally engaged horse. Before this Roman and I were talking, and we were talking about how some people hosting this podcast have a bit, our bit ruminative.

It's been a lot of time thinking, spent a lot of time analyzing, and Roman said the most beautiful thing I've ever heard. And I promised him I was gonna give him a year to use it. Not even, but I can't. Not even 30 minutes. I think I didn't even give him 40 minutes. What he said was, you know, it's really is true

that the unexamined life isn't worth living, but the over-examined life isn't much better. It's so true. Why do I over-examined life? Why does that horse over-examined life? It's going to be fine. Your girlfriend's coming back, man. Why do I over-examined life?

The over-examined life also isn't that great. Yeah. Where's all the attention for the over examine life that reminds me that reminds me that today's podcast is brought to you by the over examined life. The over examined life. This Roman Mars original that I stole 40 minutes after he said. This podcast is also brought to you by 10 to the 18 chickens. That's a lot of chickens. That's a lot of chickens. I don't know if that accounts for their spacesuits, you know? But maybe they don't need to have spacesuits.

It doesn't say living chickens. It's chickens. Today's podcast is additionally brought to you by Finsta. Finsta, is it financial? I'm not looking it up. I'm never gonna look it up. This podcast is also brought to you by boxes inside of boxes, a place where you can be messing,

eat, and free of cockroaches, or maybe just live in harmony with cockroaches. It's all up to you. This next question comes from Maxi writes, dear John and Roman, recently I was at an ice cream store that has an arcade machine in the corner and I went over to play there and I found six quarters resting on the machine. Can I use those quarters? No one else was around who looked like the quarters were theirs.

With someone coming back for them, did they just leave them there for someone to use? I've had this happen a couple times before, and I can't decide if it's morally right to use them only a little mad, Max. Yeah, use them. I think you got to. Yeah, I think they're there on purpose. I think they're there left for you.

Right. And then maybe if you feel a little weird about using them, like after you have that like four to five minutes of gaming joy that six quarters can buy you these days, you go to the ice cream store and you're like, hey, can I can I get six quarters and you just leave six quarters there for the next person? But I think that I think it's just for you. Yeah. I was recently at a Arcade a pinball thing and there was, I'm a big pinball fan. Yeah, Martin on our show is a huge pinball fan,

and I'm a big admirer. I'm just so not good at it that I have not. Oh yeah, you know, like I haven't grabbed onto it as a hobby, but I love it. Right, I'm not good either. I, my, it's very much like my relationship with skateboarding. You know, like I admire the people who are very good at it and I think that it's very beautiful, but then when I play, it's a pretty fast game. But I just love the machines, I love the noises.

It's like all them. It's like everything that a casino can give you, but it's way less expensive. And so anyway, I was at this pinball arcade and there was a pinball machine with four plays on it. And I think it had four plays on it because the person before me had scored, you know, like 700 billion points or whatever and then just walked away. But I did, I went to the pinball wizard guy who runs the pinball arcade and I was like,

hey, this machine has four free plays on it. And he just looked at me like, what's wrong with you? I was like, do you think I, do you think I can use him? And he was like, yeah, yeah, you can use him. Like otherwise, you're going to put a dollar in the machine and then it's going to have five free plays. So I think I think you should just use them. Yeah, you should just use them. Live like that guy, but I love the idea of like leaving six other quarters, but you definitely use the ones that are there and put new quarters on. Totally. 100% critical.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Do you have a favorite quarter? Oh, you mean like in the sort of the state varieties of quarters? Or like maybe it's the original, maybe like that eagle. Yeah. Or maybe like the bicentennial.

I loved the bicentennial one when I was a kid. I was like, because it was so special. Yeah. But now all the quarters look weird. They do, and it's sort of, I would say I don't at this point, although we, someone pitched us a story once about all the quarters.

And that is the type of story I would love to know. I would follow that thread, but I don't know if it jazzed. Like everyone else on staff, which is my fry white and sort of make it. But I do think there's a little bit of a problem with all the special quarters is like, if they're all special, like, like, no one is special. Not at all. Yeah. Right. And so you don't get an affinity for that, like, like, like that bicentennial quarter, which showed up every once in a while,

that you could, you know, like, you attach some meaning to. But I have to admit, I'm, I'm really, in generally, I'm just pretty delighted by each one because I love that type of, you know, sort of, that federal civic symbolism when I love finding out what people choose to represent themselves is super interesting to me. And so, but I don't know if I can't name my favorite,

I can barely even picture one of them, but I, you know if I can't name my favorite. I can barely even picture one of them. But I spend time looking at them for sure. I know that you're a flag enthusiast. And one of the things that I like most about Indianapolis, maybe the thing that I like most about Indianapolis is our city flag. Good, good. Doesn't say Indianapolis on it, which makes it rare and valuable on its own, but it's also a really good flag. And then the state of Indiana, and this is a huge surprise, because you would think that it would have a terrible flag, and it has a bad one, but like, it's not nearly as bad as most state flags. I think it's a good, I don't know.

State flag. It's the, yeah, they could take the word Indiana off of it and then it would be great. But if I'm picturing it right, right, it's the one with the torch and the, you know, and the thing. It is. Yeah, they could sort of a totally dark blue background, golden torch and then some stars around it. It's beautiful. I totally agree.

It doesn't, it would improve greatly. Just take the word Indiana off of it. But the bones of it, if you did that, are real solid, in my opinion. Yeah. No, I agree. But any Netflix is a great city flag, and it has a, I don't know, it's basically a cross that's centered, and then it has that white star with a round red circle. Yeah. And it's lovely. I just was talking about the Indianapolis flag yesterday. Oh wow. With Michael Greene who runs a thing called Flags for Good.

And he was telling me about the original version of that. This is about a 70 year old flag, I think, roughly. And the original version of it had the cross off center, like more like a Nordic cross. And oh, and it, like one contest or someone designed it, it won a contest, the designer left the state and it was adopted and he came back to Indianapolis at some point and then the flag was flying and he was like, oh, they were like recentered my flag.

Well, but it should be in the center because I, as I've understood it, is that Indianapolis is a city built on a grid, but the very center of the grid is a circle. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mix a ton of sounds. And so you can actually, not to be too nerdy, but like you, wherever you live in Indianapolis, which is a huge physical city, like one of the physically largest cities in America, you can point to the part of the flag where you live. Like if you live in the northwest side, you can point there. If you live southeast, you can point there and you can sort of use the flag as like I live approximately here as long as you're inside

of the city like inside of the beltway. Yeah, yeah. I love flags that are stylized maps like St. Louis has a good one like that. Yes. Yes. You know, that's that shows the rivers converging into this raflutterly that represents the city. I like it. They need to be pretty stylized for them to work in my opinion. Like Indianapolis is a really good example of that. But when they when they work, they work great. I love them. Yeah. And I love the I love the dark blue. I love the light blue of of a Chicago style flag. But I love that I love that the dark blue works for Indianapolis. Yeah. I think so too. I'm that's great to hear. I'm just happy to know that Indianapolis was in your mind in any way.

That's like, we're just happy to be included and have it not be about something horrific. Like, one time I met with the governor and he was like, you know, like, what do you need to be able to do your business effectively? And I was like, I mean, I need you to shut up. It's the main thing I need, honestly. Like I need you to like stop ruining it for me.

But what I said was like, you know what, governor? Like every time Indianapolis is in the national news, I don't know if you've noticed this, it's bad. Like Indiana never makes news for being awesome. And so what I would love is for you to stop making news. That is a good advice. That's a good advice. Yeah.

Stop, stop pumping the brakes on everyone else's attempt to make this a normal nice place to hang out and recruit and work and live. Yeah, well, and let us have a soccer team. Dear Roman and John, I was driving with my sister the other day when we spotted a car wrapped to look like a clownfish. The back of the car said it was for a mobile fish veterinarian, which got us thinking, how do they do surgery on a fish? Do they do it under water? Is there a water mask for the gills, like an oxygen mask for people? Do people even get surgeries on their fish? They didn't teach us this in school. Oh, there you go. I get it. Now I would assume that a mobile fish veterinarian is not performing surgeries, but it's instead being like your fish is good or your fish is not good.

And here's some fish medicine. Exactly. But is there fish surgery? And so, surely there can't be. I was very intrigued by this, because I saw this one. I didn't do tons of research today, but I saw the first... No, we didn't do anything about fins test. That's for sure.

But I did. I saw this one, and I was like, I'm very curious about this myself, and there's no way I can make a guess. It turns out, yes, there is fish surgery. In fact, no. Yes. I mean, I would say that most of the time that a veterinarian is called in for a fish, it is like to add chemicals or antibiotics

to deal with some kind of Ick or something like that. But for very expensive fish or fish that you're very attached to, probably larger. Like I watched or I saw pictures of a fish surgery and it was something to behold because you are right, like it is not, well, you know, Anna is right. There's kind of a water mask for their kids.

So, so, oh, so they take them out of the water, but they sort of, yeah, they keep the water on them. Yeah, they take them out of the water, I mean, at least the them. Yeah, they take them out of the water, I mean, least the one I saw, they take them out of the water, they have a tube that goes in their mouth that pumps water over their gills so that they can breathe.

They are anesthetized and they cut them open, they remove their little lump or something, they sown back up and then you have fish surgery. Wow. Humans are remarkable. Amazing. Amazing.

That is amazing. I mean, the things that we can do when we care, exactly, it's incredible. We can perform surgery on fish. We can. Yeah. Yeah. Love it. That's pretty. Yeah. We can perform surgery on fish. We can. Yeah. Yeah. Love it. That's pretty mind blowing.

I'm sure somebody's gonna send us an email a year from now that's like, actually, we did a study and we found out that fish perform surgery on fish too. And here's our paper full of puns that we published on April 1st. But it's pretty remarkable that humans can do fish surgery. I love it.

Incredible. All right. I also wanted to ask you this question about cheese. Okay. From Evan who writes, dear John and Roman, I come to you with a question. I work at a cafe that specializes in wine and cheese, and we have two cheese platters, one for bland tastes, and one stinky cheese clatter. We're talking moldy cheeses. Why do only old people enjoy stinky cheese? Do younger people have more sensitive

taste buds? People under 35 always go for the bland cheeses, good, a-bree, etc., smell you later, Evan. Yeah, actually. You know, really? Yeah, our taste buds get older and they get less sensitive and it is you are more likely in general to enjoy stronger flavors as you get older because those taste buds just aren't fire in like they used to. That's so interesting. That explains why, if you told me 15 years ago, that a significant portion of my free time would be spent with my mother growing peppers from seed, and then like taking care of them in the garden for six months,

and then over the next six months processing them into hot sauce, I would have been like, what? My mom lives next door to me. I would have been like, what? My mom lives next door to me. That would have been my first, that would have been my first surprise. For your first surprise. Then my second, I would have been like, and I love it. Wow. And my second surprise would have been that I make hot sauce with my mom. But it's so fun. And also, I love hot sauce, which I didn't 15 years ago. Hot sauce is the best. I love hot sauce too. Oh, oh, I'll send you some. Yeah, I need some green family hot sauce.

I don't know if you like our family hot sauce, but you won't complain that it's not spicy. Yeah, so I think the two things working here are, you know, just like the ravages of time and I'm also exposure. I think that if you over time, you try more things. You start to like more things. I think you can refine your palate through exposure and like stink your cheeses and stronger, all kinds of stronger smells and tastes and stuff like that. It's one of the great things about growing older, actually, might be.

I agree. I went to a blue cheese educational evening several years ago. You know, like one of those things where? Sure, where things you do. Yeah, I don't know. Like Sarah was like, oh, I got us tickets to a blue cheese education session. And I was like, great.

And I was very unenthusiastic. This is very standard with me. We're all be like, why are you making me leave the house? It's the only place where I'm happy. Just put me in my hermetically sealed box and allow me to eat Ritz crackers. I don't need any of this fancy stuff. And then I went and it was amazing.

It was amazing. I learned so much and also I love to experience people's passion. Oh my God. It's like the cornerstone of my entire career, honestly. Yes. It's just like I love people who love things so much that I could watch someone expressing their love for a thing all day long.

I love it. Yeah. Yeah. And it doesn't really matter that much. What it is. I mean, as long as it's not like something horn, right? You know, like for me, there's not a huge differentiation between people who are extremely passionate about yarn and people who are extremely passionate about fourth tier English football. It's just the passion. It's the love, it's the fascination. It's the, oh, I forgot to tell you something else

that's really, really important about the world's largest ball of twine. Yeah. That feeling, it's magical. It really is. It really is. I mean, that's my favorite part of my job is talking to those folks who really light up

when they talk about, you know, the simplest things that excite them. It's just so, so, so, so good. Yeah, I could, I can totally enjoy a cheese class, even though I am not a stinky cheese guy at all. But, no, but I would, no, I, I recently went skiing for the first time, which I had no interest in. Yeah. I would know I recently went skiing for the first time which I had no interest in and I and I'm 45 years old. I don't think I'm going to become an expert skier. I mean on a few levels right? Like nobody looked at me and thought like, like, that guy's got a chance at the Olympics. And anyway, I went skiing. I don't know if you've ever been skiing. Are you skiing? No, I mean, I, no, it wasn't part of my life

in central Ohio. No, I mean, yeah. You're the same, exactly, right? Thank. Very far away from anything that I, and I didn't just never had any interest in it, but anyway, I went and I didn't, I was, it was fine.

I liked it. It was great. Whatever, it's good time outside, all that mountains are beautiful, et cetera. But the thing that I loved was my ski instructor, Haley, who loved skiing and like understood it deeply and was passionate about it and needed to like, and needed to share things with me about it that weren't necessarily about like my skiing. It was just about like what makes skiing awesome and interesting and the things that you're able to do on skis that you can't do without them. And I was like, that's the best part of this vacation for me. Totally.

Totally. Getting to like learn from a haley about skiing. Yeah. Yeah. That's, I think that's stuff's's beautiful. Agreed. And it is one of the great joys of listening to 99% invisible. By the way, if you haven't listened to 99% invisible, I'm extremely jealous if you, because you're about to have the best experience. You're about to find out that they're actually, they're actually really good podcasts out there. It's so good.

And but that's one of the joys of listening to it, is that so often you introduced those stories of people's deep love of things, their deep fascinations, and you kind of model how that happens in a way in some episodes, like you allow the listener to experience some of the same magic of falling in love with something. What I like most about the show and the way it changed me

in the past 13 or 14 years that I've been doing it, and I have to really stress, over the years, my role in what makes the show great has diminished significantly because I have this team of people who make it and are so, so good. And I always say that I'm like the third or fourth or maybe the fifth most important person on any story. But I'm there for every story. But what I love the most in the terms of that sort of like awareness of the world is these designers of our built world and makers of things are solving problems before you even

have them. They're in a way when you operate in the world, you are in the warm embrace of people thinking about things that you don't even need to bother thinking about. They've handled it for you. And it's changed my outlook of, it makes the world feel so much more caring in general, just by thinking about curb cuts and street lights and you know things like that. It just, it really, really changes my mood when I work on a story, you know, or like write to someone else, work on a story and say, oh, you should move this here. You start to see all the systems that people participate in and strengthen for each other, you know, like from whether that's manhole covers or sewer systems that, you know,

we are all working together on some level to make things easier for each other. And that's so lovely. I know. It's such a much better way of thinking about what we're up to as a species. Agreed. It's totally re-oriented my brain doing the show. And so hopefully, you know, you get some of that effect

when you listen to it too. I certainly do. All right, Roman, it's time for the all important news from Mars and AFC Wimblebin. I'll go first. There is no team in professional football anywhere as far as I can tell on Earth right now that has lost more games from winning positions than AFC Wimbledon.

And today, as we're recording this, good Friday, should I say bad Friday. AFC Wimbledon played Harrogate Town, one of the worst teams in league to favorite to go down, not even be a professional team anymore, won't be able to play them in FIFA next season. Maybe we were winning 2-0, two goals for Mithin Chislett in the 85th minute, five minutes to go, and I thought to myself, maybe we're going to win a football game. But no, no, we gave up a goal, stupid goal, really annoying. And then in the last second of added time, there was a corner kick for Harrogate and everybody, everybody, everybody on the field, everybody on earth knew what was going to happen. You could see it in the eyes of all 11 Wimbledon players. You could see it in the eyes of the 600 fans who'd traveled to Harrogate.

You could see it in the eyes of the 600 fans who'd traveled the Harrogate. You could see it in my eyes and we gave up a goal when the last kick of the game and tied two to and I can't do this anymore. I can't, I can't, I can't, I can't, I can't, why am I letting the quality of my life be deeply affected by the exploits of 26 year olds who live far away from it? Why? And then I was like, I went to Sarah and I was like, I, we need to invest real money in AFC Wimbledon. And she was like, no, no, no, that's a non-starter.

And I was like, they need help in their minds. They need mind help because there's nothing wrong with their feet, the problem, and I know what this is like because the problem with me is also inside of my mind. So it's not a criticism, it's just an acknowledgement. And like, I need help inside my mind. And, you know, and Sarah was like, I don't, I think we should probably focus on partners in health, buddy. And that's a good point. That's a good point.

God is so frustrating. Yeah. Oh, goodness gracious. Mars would never do this to somebody, you know? Mars doesn't have a problem in its head. No, it doesn't. God. It's so difficult.

It's so difficult right now. Yeah. So anyway, hopefully we won't get relegated. Even though we haven't won an away game in six months, hopefully we won't get relegated. So that's the job at this point. There's only six games left in the season. And hopefully that's hopefully we'll be all right.

What do you have any news from Mars? Is it is a personal question? I guess I don't know anything about the planet Mars. I would say that things are going good in the in the in the Mars household though. So we're going going strong. That's great. That's great. That's the news from Mars. I want it. Like what's the news from Mars? And the news from Mars is that things are all right. You

know? Yeah. Things are okay. Yeah. We're doing it. You didn't like throw away a 2-0 lead in four minutes to the we worst team in professional football. No, we avoided that fate, but there are many other things that obstacles along the way. Yes, and it's not to say that there are no challenges. The great thing about caring a lot about football is that it's so simple, like life is so complicated and so difficult. And that's the problem with getting too involved in football, is that it just becomes then it's like oh, it's really complicated but if you just watch the games Then then it's so simple, you know, it's a flat field the ball rolls around Sometimes it goes over the line. Sometimes it doesn't it's yeah, you know, it's unimportant and

In the best possible way. I've been watching a lot more soccer because one of my stepkids is a really fanatic about soccer. Love, loves, loves soccer. Goes to the park by himself for like three or four hours a day to go practice footwork and stuff like that. Wow, that's beautiful. And it's really watching me see him. Is he interested in a trip to South America? I think he would be. Yeah, he would be. We need somebody who will spend three or four hours a day at the park working on footwork.

You're opening it up to 14 year olds. I think you have a, you would have someone, you'd have a taker. But, but I've been amazed by like how, because I hadn't really been to a lot of soccer games, I played soccer as a kid, but I don't think I understood it when I played it. Just to watch the level of thinking for what seems like a bunch of people run around in chaos is really something. Like my appreciation for it has really grown watching this kid.

Yeah, so it really is an art and it's a kind of brilliance, you know, and when I was a kid, I was taught that there's this hard line between sports and creativity. And as such, I always thought of myself as being just deeply opposed to sports on every level. And it was only when I realized that like, what I was trying to do with stories is not that different from what Roberto Firmino was trying to do with football. That I started to realize, this is a chance to watch people. It's the same thing. It's like the same thing as getting to

meet somebody who knows everything about the world's largest ball of twang. Yeah, yeah. Or the competing world largest balls of twang. It's that same feeling of like, oh, there's levels to this. Beautiful, beautiful levels. Totally, totally. And I'll compliment or say something completely ignorant and he'll be pretty generous. Like, well, that one wasn't a big deal. This part was a big deal.

He was a big deal. Yeah, yeah, that wasn't the interesting part. But, you know, I'm glad you noticed that. But that was actually very easy. Yeah. It's knowing to be there. That's hard. And that was always my problem playing soccer,

is that I don't have a lot of spatial reasoning. And so the coach would be like, if you just run diagonally, you will get to where they are going, rather than like running behind them, in which case you will never get to them. And I would be like, no, I think the best strategy here is to run run at the person, not where they will be, but where are they now. And then by the time I get there, I'll find that they have moved and I will be shocked every time. Yeah.

How could I have foreseen this? So. And then you see the people who are really good at it and you're like, oh, they never even have to make a tackle because they're just always there. Like my Sarah played high school soccer and when I played soccer, like in indoor leagues with her and stuff and we would get to the end of a game

and she'd be like, God, you run so much. And I'm like, yeah, but you know where to be. The good ones don't have to run. Exactly. You know, she just me there every time. Well, thank you so much for podding with me. Oh, my pleasure.

I loved it. I'm so excited to be able to talk with you every time we get to chat. I'm such a fan. So this is really cool. Thanks for doing this. This podcast is edited by Joseph Tuna Medish. It's produced by Rosiana Hals. Rohaus, I was joined today by Roman Mars from the podcast 99% invisible, the best podcast you'll ever listen to. Our head of community and communications is Brooke Shotlow. And the music that you're hearing right now and at the beginning of the podcast is by the great Vanarola and as they say in our hometown, don't forget to be awesome. [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪