99% Invisible - 577- The Society of Ambiance Makers and Elegant Persons

Episode Date: April 9, 2024

Hailing from central African cities of Brazzaville and Kinshasa, sapeurs have become increasingly recognizable around the world. Since the 1970s, sapeurs (from: le sape, short for "Société des Ambia...nceurs et des Personnes Élégantes") have been known for donning technicolored three-piece suits with flamboyant accessories like golden walking sticks and leopard-print fedoras, and then cat-walking through their city streets.In recent years, Solange, Kendrick and SZA have all featured sapeurs in their music videos. The iconic British menswear designer Paul Smith did a whole spring line of sapeur-inspired suits and bowler hats.The Society of Ambiance Makers and Elegant Persons

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Starting point is 00:00:00 This is 99% Invisible. I'm Christopher Johnson. It's February 2nd, 2014, and you're balancing a plate of wings and blue cheese dip on your lap, watching the Seattle Seahawks thrash the Denver Broncos into Super Bowl. Then, during one of the commercial breaks, you see this ad. In the middle of the screen, it says, Congo Brazzaville. There's a group of men doing hard, dirty says, Congo Brazzaville. There's a group of men doing hard, dirty work, clearing fields and fixing cars. In life, you cannot always choose what you do.
Starting point is 00:00:34 But you can always choose who you are. Next thing you know, the ad cuts to a new scene. It's the evening, and now we're at a bar. This is producer Ryan Lenora Brown. A crowd has formed a circle around those same men, who have shed their dirty work clothes for coral pink, canary, and bright tangerine-colored suits. One by one, the men proudly strut and pose, twirling their gold pocket watches, snapping their suspenders, and shooting their cuffs as the crowd cheers them on.
Starting point is 00:01:04 In the corner, a bartender smiles approvingly as he pours a glass of Guinness. You see my friends, with every brace and every cufflinks, we say, I am the master of my fate. I am the captain of my soul. Okay so I admit, at first glance it may seem a bit out of left field that a group of Congolese men dressed like an exquisitely elegant pack of highlighters is out here selling Irish beer during the Super Bowl. But actually, everyone from cinematographers to musicians to style mavens have finally been catching on to this loose-knit collective of dandies called Sappors.
Starting point is 00:01:47 They're from the central African cities of Brazzaville and Kinshasa, and since the 1970s, they've been known for donning technicolor three-piece suits with flamboyant accessories like golden walking sticks and leopard print fedoras, and then catwalking through their city streets. In recent years, the Sappores have blown up. Solange, Kendrick, and SZA have all featured Sappores in their music videos.
Starting point is 00:02:12 The iconic British menswear designer Paul Smith did a whole spring line of Sappore-inspired suits and bowler hats. If you want to be delighted, do a real quick image search. When you see the Sappores, it's obvious what makes them so attractive to famous artists and global brands. Their remix on classic menswear is irreverent and colorful and just a joy to look at. And these images are really different from the stereotypical way that sub-Saharan Africa is often portrayed to the world. Those images depict the region as broke and broken. As an American journalist who's worked here for the past decade, I've seen those stereotypes. We all have. And the reality is, life in places like the Congo is really difficult, especially
Starting point is 00:02:58 after centuries of brutal colonization, resource extraction, and underdevelopment. Into that bleak frame strolls the Sappors, these Congolese mechanics and construction workers and farmhands dressed up like aristocratic peacocks, flaunting their Ferragamo monk strap shoes, silk Chanel scarves, and crisp Versace suits. For Sappors, looking that clean is like two huge f**k yous. One for the cards they've been dealt and the other to anyone who thinks those circumstances could ever define them. At the root of this is this phenomena of having agency and using style. Chantrell Lewis is author of the book, Dandelion, the Black Dandy and Street Style,
Starting point is 00:03:47 which features the Sappores. Black men have taken the European suit and fashioned it with traditional African sensibilities. I'm talking about color, I'm talking about swag, I'm talking about using the European suit to defy their material conditions, defy their realities. For more than a century, Black dandies like the Sappores have been engaged in what Chantrell
Starting point is 00:04:14 calls dapper agitation. It's a counterintuitive kind of rebellion, right? Because in a way, formal wear is all about conformity. That's why we call people suits. And jackets and ties came to this part of the world in a particularly ugly and violent way. They were brought by colonizers who made dressing European a precondition for being treated like a human being.
Starting point is 00:04:38 But the Sappors have flipped that script in dramatic fashion. They've taken the European suit, this thing that was forced on them, and made it wholly, authentically Congolese. And they've done it so well that now it's the rest of us trying to wear our clothes to look like them. This radical fashion transformation began way before anybody in the Congo was calling themselves a Sappor. In fact, it started before the Congo was even a country of its own. It goes back to the first generations of Congolese men to put on suits and ties. In fact, it started before the Congo was even a country of its own. It goes back to the first generations of Congolese men to put on suits and ties. Men like Frederick Mpenda.
Starting point is 00:05:12 OK, I just have to be a little bit ready. Are you OK? Yeah, mom, but… It's a sticky September day in Kinshasa, the capital of the Democratic Republic of the Congo. I'm sitting under a leafy mango tree in Frederick's yard. He's 89, dressed in the international off-duty grandpa uniform, a gray polo shirt and blue track pants. But 70 years ago, his fashion sense was a little different.
Starting point is 00:05:37 Frederick flips open a photo album and points to a black and white picture. There's a young man wearing a chic gray suit and tasseled loafers, holding a chunky baby with rolls like the Michelin Man. That's me, that's me, he says, pointing to the man in the suit. He turns to another photo of himself. This one is from the 1950s. Frederick is sitting on his bicycle, wearing a crisp white button down
Starting point is 00:06:03 and throwing the camera a brooding, serious gaze. His hair is close-cropped, and there's a long, straight part running through it. Look at that part! We were always trying to imitate white people, even though our hair is nappy. Frederick talks casually about it now, but when this photo was taken, imitating how white people dressed was a matter of survival here. Back then, the Democratic Republic of the Congo, or the DRC, was a colony of the Belgians. They believed they needed to, quote, civilize the primitive Congolese,
Starting point is 00:06:46 making them less African and more white. Growing up in the 1940s, Frederick's white school teachers made it crystal clear that the only way a Congolese boy like him could get ahead in life was to aspire to be as European as he possibly could. Frederick took their advice to heart.
Starting point is 00:07:04 As a young man, he perfected his French, he got his diploma, and in the 1950s he took a job with the colonial government in Leopoldville, what's now Kinshasa. But of course, the Belgians were wild racists who by this point had already spent more than a half century plundering Congo's minerals using slave labor. They didn't actually believe that someone like Frederick would ever be equal to them. So Frederick found himself continually having to prove how Belgian he could be, like when he applied to be an assistant to a colonial administrator.
Starting point is 00:07:37 You first did a short exam. If you passed the exam, you went to the hospital so they could see if you were physically fit or not. If they decided you were fit, they handed you a little bottle of cologne. In a thousand ways, the Belgians tried to erase the Africaness of the Congolese. In order to succeed, you had to speak and act and even smell like a white person. This was especially true for Frederick. That's because he was considered an évolué, which literally means an evolved one. That's what the Belgians called a Congolese person who
Starting point is 00:08:19 broke ties with their African identity and their community, and instead adopted a European system of values. Evolué status gave people like Frederick access to education, jobs, and neighborhoods that most Congolese would never receive. But it also meant constantly being subjected to humiliating rituals. You will find the white agent at the door. When you arrive at work, you will find a white man at the door.
Starting point is 00:08:48 He would smell you. And if you did not smell good, if you did not wear the cologne, he will send you home. In our time, it was like that. You could not be unclean. Evo Luais were expected to speak crisp French, eat with a knife and fork, and go to mass on Sundays. Sitting with Frederick in his yard in Kinshasa, he explains to me that being an Evoluée meant having to look European, too.
Starting point is 00:09:19 It's at this point in our conversation that he gets up and goes inside his house. When he comes back, he's holding an armful of vintage suits. Frederick's son, Kaditoza, who was the chubby little baby Frederick was holding in that snapshot, has been sitting with us the whole time. He starts going through his father's suits. That's the color red, red. Red? Red.
Starting point is 00:09:43 That's the color salmon. One is deep red, kind of bordeaux. There's a dark salmon pink one, a beige one. These suits date back to the 50s. Back then, Frederick filled his wardrobe with them. He bought them secondhand from shops created specifically for so-called évolués like him. Frederick loved those suits. He still does. But they were also in some ways stifling.
Starting point is 00:10:14 This elaborate European cosplay that many Congolese had to do just to be treated like human beings. So how do we get from that to the irreverence and joy and freedom of the Sapoors? I was led to the answer while sitting in notoriously awful Kinshasa traffic. One afternoon, I was trying to get to an interview when my taxi lurched to a stop yet again in front of an old shipping container. It had been converted into a shoe store. There was a sign outside featuring a life-sized photo of a middle-aged man in aviators, dressed head to toe in black leather.
Starting point is 00:10:54 It read, Papa Grief, Supreme Magistrate and Sapore of the State. When I spoke with the Supreme Magistrate, I explained that I was trying to figure out exactly how suits, of all things, became such a vital form of self-expression in the DRC. Papa Grief didn't mention any tailors or designers. Instead, he pointed to something else as the origin of La Sappe, as the Sappours movement is known. La Sappe in our country was killed by music.. The sap comes from music. The sap in this country was surrounded by music. The sap came from this music. And then he said, let me show you. So the next night, I followed Papa Grief through a hole in a chain link fence into a concrete
Starting point is 00:11:40 courtyard. About a dozen guys were lounging with their instruments on overturned plastic drink crates. As we walked in, Papa Grief's band started to play. This is Congolese Roomba. Its roots date back to the 1940s, when Belgian officials were sniff testing Evo Luais at the doors of their office jobs. Like the Evo Luais, the musicians of that era also dressed in suits and ties. But unlike the Evo Luais, their fashion frame of reference wasn't white Belgians. Instead, Congolese artists took their fashion cues from Black American jazz musicians who had been dispatched to Leopoldville to play for U.S. troops during World War II.
Starting point is 00:12:35 Locals also went to those shows and were awestruck dressed in suits and bow ties. Didier Mamungi is a Congolese writer, historian, and politician. He says that Congolese civilians used to go see these military bands in concert, and they loved how the Black American groups wore their Western-style suits. Black like the Congolese, but dressed like the Europeans. Dressed better than the Europeans. Better in what sense? In the sense of style. What struck local artists, Didier says, was that the jazz men were Black like the Congolese,
Starting point is 00:13:22 but they dressed like Europeans. In fact, he says, they dressed better than Europeans. I asked him, better in what sense? He said, in the sense of style. Although jazz music never really took off in the Congo, jazz fashion definitely did. Congolese musicians quickly began to imitate the way that Black American artists dressed. Roomba fashion looked like it was straight out of Harlem, matching pinstripe suits, glossy loafers, colorful pocket squares.
Starting point is 00:13:51 The ingredients of these outfits were similar to what the Évouloués wore, but with flashier colors and bigger accessories. For Congo's department stores, this was awesome news. It meant the suit and tie was now verifiably cool. Store owners started hiring musicians as brand ambassadors who would wear their suits to concerts and bars, and even sometimes sing about them to drum up business. And that's how Congolese begin to equate music with dressing up.
Starting point is 00:14:23 The musicians themselves make clothes a central element of the music. Over the next couple of decades, the music really took off as Congolese artists started touring the world. By the 1970s, Roomba filled clubs from Kinshasa to Paris. Papa Grief grew up in this era. The musicians understood that they were in front of the world now, so they really wanted to look good. The patron saint of this music was a flamboyant singer with a high, haunting voice, who went by the stage name Papa Wemba. As Papa Wemba toured the globe, he'd collect luxurious clothes by European and Japanese
Starting point is 00:15:22 designers, adding new flamboyance to the more classic suit-and-tie look of Roomba artists. He strutted on stage in checkered safari suits with pith helmets and neon yellow bell bottoms with psychedelic print shirts. He was partial to denim, crushed velvet, and floor-length fur coats, which he wore even in the sticky tropical heat. And he loved, loved a fine tailored suit. Here's Papa Wemba explaining in a 2004 documentary why he gravitated to such
Starting point is 00:15:52 extravagant clothes early in his career. I wanted it to be different because all the singers were doing the same thing. So I said to myself, I must find a gimmick, you know? Turn everybody on. You've got to turn the young people on. Fans were already used to seeing Congolese musicians as style icons. But at a talk he gave in 2015, Papa Wimba described how he and other Roomba artists turned their shows into all-out fashion contests.
Starting point is 00:16:26 In the 1970s, when we started our musical careers, there was a group of young people who came from Breasville to take part in the closing battle in Kinshasa. This is where we should clarify that there are two Congos. One is the DRC, with the capital Kinshasa colonized by the Belgians. The other one, just across the Congo River, was colonized by the French. Its capital is Brazzaville. Roomba lovers would take ferries back and forth between the two cities, where there'd
Starting point is 00:17:02 be fashion showdowns wherever Papua Wemba and other artists were performing. Well-dressed fans faced off, strutting and posing, showing off designer clothes, as crowds whistled and shouted for the best dressed. Those outfits often came from the overflowing closets of the musicians themselves. Wemba artists collected high-end fashion while on tour, and they'd often sell those pieces used to fans who scrimped and saved for months to buy them. Or fans would get other Congolese traveling abroad to bring designer European clothes back home to Kinshasa and Brazzaville.
Starting point is 00:17:36 It's not clear exactly who decided this cult of luxury fashion needed a name, but by the mid-1970s, its acolytes were calling themselves SAPPORS, a play on la sap, a French slang word for clothing. The SAPPORS added a Congolese flourish to the term by making S-A-P-E, an acronym that means the society of ambiance makers and elegant persons. and elegant persons. La Sap was about dressing up to look good, to look elegant. It was also about the ambiance, the glow that you the Sappor in your fine, beautiful formal wear brought into the world. In one of Papa Wemba's songs, Aisa Nzawazoa, he has a line that's become like a creed to
Starting point is 00:18:27 the Sappores. It goes like this, what was he like? Well dressed, well shaved, or sapology. Unlike Papa Wemba, most Congolese rumba fans couldn't really afford a closet full of silk shirts and designer suits. But the Sapoors believed that if you could find a way to dress expensively, the world would treat you like an expensive person, whether you were a famous rumba musician or a construction worker.
Starting point is 00:19:11 Here's Papa Grief again. Clothing changes a person. We recognize students by their uniforms. We recognize professional athletes by the jersey they wear. We know lawyers by their robes and doctors by their coats. You know a soldier when you see them because of their uniforms too. This is how you know who someone is. When you see a madman, you will understand that the mad is how you know who someone is. To the Sappores, fine formal wear announced to the world that you were the kind of person who deserved luxury. In the grand scheme, suits are a small thing.
Starting point is 00:20:07 But Lesap formed as proof that anyone could be a person who mattered, just by looking the part. For a lot of young Congolese, that idea was extraordinary. So extraordinary that it didn't matter that you were going to have to totally break the bank to make it happen. That's how Yinda Gabi felt. When she was 20 years old, in the early 1980s, she went to a Papua Wemba concert in Kinshasa. She watched as he walked on stage wearing a floor-length black Versace coat. And she just couldn't stop looking at it.
Starting point is 00:20:55 She says when she saw that jacket, it was love at first sight, like a thunderbolt going through her. Yenda became a woman obsessed. Since Papa Wemba was a distant friend of the family, she approached him and asked if he'd sell her the jacket. He said yes, for $100. That was a lot of money. She was a young mother selling meat at a tiny market stall, making at most a couple dollars a day.
Starting point is 00:21:16 But she immediately forked over her entire savings. Yinda never regretted her very expensive purchase. When she put on that jacket, people just looked at her differently. They spoke to her more respectfully. She felt tougher and braver. She became a Sappor. It transformed my life. It made me known. She began spending more and more money on clothes and swapping outfits with other Sappors. She even gave herself a new name.
Starting point is 00:21:48 I'm Yinda Gabi, but people know me as Mama Mineur. Mama Mineur basically means youthful mother. Women Sopors are also known as Sapoos. When she joined the movement in the 80s, there weren't many. She's still one of the few. Most of her clothes are what we think of as menswear. But she says in La Sappe, it doesn't work like that. Because the women are not fit.
Starting point is 00:22:18 They are not fit. They are not fit. They are not fit. A Sapoor is a kind of rebel. In la sappe, there's no difference between men's and women's clothes. There was a freedom for women and a freedom for men also. If a man wants to wear a skirt, he can wear a skirt. By the 1980s, the Sappores had totally rebranded European formal wear. The Belgians had required Africans to wear suits to prove their European-ness.
Starting point is 00:22:55 American jazz artists, at least in the eyes of the Congolese, had worn suits to affirm their dignity. Sappores were defining suits and fine fashion again. They weren't just cool, they were very Congolese. Coming up, the infamous dictator who tried to kill the Sappors vibes. That's after the break, but first here's Roman with some ads. Not everyone loved Congolese people strutting around like the Sappors in bright and flamboyant European formal wear.
Starting point is 00:23:47 One person who hated the idea was the president, Mobutu Sese Seko. If that name sounds familiar, it's because Mobutu is notorious for his wild exploitation of the DRC. He conspired with the CIA to have the Congo's first prime minister, Patrice Lumumba, assassinated. And when Mobutu took over in the mid-1960s, he quickly became a kleptocratic dictator of note. He enjoyed riding his yacht down the Congo and chartering Concorde jets for weekend trips to his personal castle in Spain.
Starting point is 00:24:19 Stuff like that. Matthew 6.1 Mobutu despised the way that Belgian colonists had tried to bleach the Congolese of their own cultures. Here he is explaining why he was fed up with Europe's influence in the Congo. To exploit the black men, the colonizer wiped out African traditions, languages, and cultures. In short, totally negating the black man so that he thinks, speaks, eats, dresses, laughs, and breathes like a white man. As president, Mobutu took a hard turn towards nationalism.
Starting point is 00:25:02 He changed the country's name to Zaire, a word derived from an indigenous term for the Congo River. And he scrapped colonial city names like Leopoldville and Stanleyville. He also banned Western names like Marie and Pierre. For him, the point was to rid Zaire of the symbols of Belgian colonialism. Mobutu called this new policy, Authenticite. He had thought of it as a movement of complete decolonization of Congolese spirits. Congolese scholar Didier Mamungi says Mbutu thought of Authenticite as a movement to completely decolonize the Congolese spirit. For Mbutu, it was crucial that all Zaireans show unwavering faith in his new program. Authenticity!
Starting point is 00:25:51 And political philosophy! In a documentary about Mobutu, he's shown sitting on a throne made of carved wood and green velvet. The dictator is watching, pleased, as a room full of people robotically parrot lines, praising authenticity and Zaire. Zaire!
Starting point is 00:26:10 Zaire! Zaire! Zaire! Zaire! Zaire! Zaire! Zaire! Zaire!
Starting point is 00:26:18 Zaire! Zaire! Zaire! Zaire! Zaire! Zaire! Zaire! Zaire! Zaire! Zaire! Zaire! believed, like the Sepors, that how you dressed was directly linked to who you were. But he wanted people to look Zairean.
Starting point is 00:26:33 In his early days as the leader of Zaire, when he was hobnobbing with Western kings and presidents, Mobutu typically wore a classic suit and tie. But in the early 1970s, he did a fashion 180. If you've ever seen a photo of Mobutu, there's a very good chance he's dressed as follows. His trademark leopard-skin cap, big, thick, buddy-holly glasses, a carved wooden walking stick, and something that he'd invented that looks kind of like a cross between a lightweight blazer and a dress shirt buttoned up to the collar. He called this new creation the Abacost. Abacost is short for Aba le Cost costume, which literally means down with the suit.
Starting point is 00:27:09 And it was Mobutu's personal response to the European suit and tie. Well, it was his personal response that he more or less copied directly from China. It had what was then called a Mao color, but to make it a bit different, the color was slightly elongated with the scarf in the place of a tie. And voila, the Abacost. As part of Authenticité, Mobutu had come up with a new national dress code, and he made the Abacost the official office uniform in Zaire.
Starting point is 00:27:49 And then, to round off his down with the suit messaging, he actually made it against the law for men to wear western suits and ties. But bans are made to be broken, and the dictator's anti-suit laws certainly didn't stop the Sappors from continuing to flaunt their fanciest clothes. And suddenly, dressing like a European dandy took on a whole new political connotation. Now, La Sappe was an act of rebellion against the eccentric dictator. La Sappe, la joie, c'était un mouvement de révolte, de révendication. La Sappe was a joy, and that alone was a revolt against Mobutu.
Starting point is 00:28:29 It was a statement, because he said, you have forbidden us to live our lives like we want, you have forbidden us to speak as we want, but there is a space that a dictator like you cannot control, and that is our bodies. The Sappor's flashy, uber-expensive style was an act of resistance in another way, too. Because here's the thing. By the 1980s, Mobutu Zaire was melting down. As part of Authenticite, he seized foreign-owned businesses and mostly let them rot.
Starting point is 00:29:07 Commodities tanked, and the country was plunged into debt. Oh, and Mabutu was stealing crazy amounts of money, something like half the national budget each year. The dictator himself talked about how broke his country was. On Zaire, financially ill, many doctors are suffering. Many doctors are examining a financially sick Zaire. Some want shock treatment, others want radical surgery. As Zaire's economy crumbled, so did its infrastructure.
Starting point is 00:29:41 And in the midst of those dark days, Sappors could be seen strutting down Kinshasa streets, littered with potholes and gurgling with raw sewage in their designer trench coats and thousand dollar crocodile loafers. The Sappors weren't just pushing back against Mobutu's dress code. They seemed to be an open rebellion against their country's bleak reality. There was so little money to be had, and here they were choosing to blow it on like pocket watches and fedoras. As if to say, we refuse to let these difficult circumstances ruin our ambiance or scuff our fine leather boots.
Starting point is 00:30:16 In a larger grand scheme of the social realities of what's happening in the Congo, it's frivolous, right? This is a frivolous activity. This is author Chantrell Lewis again. But for me, anytime someone can use resources to create the type of reality that they want to live, and even if that is to imagine this luxury lifestyle, I believe that's an act of power and agency and resistance. Eventually, Zaire's economic situation forced many to leave the country.
Starting point is 00:30:48 That migration accelerated in the mid-1990s, after Mabutu was deposed by a rebel army, and then a brutal civil war erupted. As hundreds of thousands of Zairean migrants fanned out across the world, they took the culture of La Salle with them. fanned out across the world, they took the culture of La Sappe with them. Especially to Europe, where Sappoers now had regular access to brands and styles that had been hard to come by at home. The tradition of Sappoer fashion duels found new life in the nightclubs of Paris and Brussels. European filmmakers began capturing Sappoapor culture for a global audience.
Starting point is 00:31:27 In a 2004 documentary, a group of Sapor's are seen standing in a plaza in Belgium, boasting about the brands they're wearing, Comme des Garçons, Versace and Yoji Yamamoto. One of the Sapor's points at the camera and declares in Lingala,
Starting point is 00:31:47 this is the story of wicked fashion. By the early 2000s, Sappors were getting attention around the world. At the same time, journalists and photographers started traveling to Africa to report on Sappor culture in Kinshasa and Brazzaville. That's one of the phenomena that made the Sapir culture so prominent was that it occurred during the time when social media began to be on the rise. So now the Sapir were the subjects
Starting point is 00:32:19 of everyday photographers, which then opened up their world to all of us. Last year, Congo hosted the Francophone Games, a kind of Olympics for the French-speaking world. The opening ceremony in Kinshasa was a medley of traditional Congolese dance, song and puppetry. And then in the middle of the show, the stadium suddenly went completely black. A row of yellow taxis appeared out of the darkness, headlights blazing. Then the car doors flung open. A bunch of people in pinstripe suits and foot-tall top hats and iridescent gold blazers started
Starting point is 00:33:00 pouring out. And the sappers, who are obviously the emblematic characters. Who come out of the taxi. Seeing the sappers on such a big stage, it was clear to me that they had gone mainstream, in the best possible way. This bold, extravagant cult of luxury fashion used to be counterculture. But when I was in Kinshasa,
Starting point is 00:33:21 many Congolese told me that now, La Sappe, c'est notre patrimoine national. La Sappe is our national heritage. ["Petite Salle"] 99% Invisible was reported this week by Ryan Lenora Brown and produced and edited by me, Christopher Johnson. Mix and sound design by Martin Gonzalez, music by Swan Real and Cake O'Donnell,
Starting point is 00:33:48 fact checking by Graham Hayesha. Special thanks this week to Kristen Lassiste, Eve Sambu, Leon Sambu, Kaditosa and our fixer and kinshasa, Chopra Kabambi. Also thanks to Nkumu Katalai, Emilia Mungu Mahandi for the voiceovers and the Mfwambila Congo Dance Company. Roman Mars is our supreme magistrate and ambiance maker.
Starting point is 00:34:12 Kathy Tu is our executive producer. Kurt Kallstedt is our digital director. Delaney Hall is our senior editor. The rest of our incredible team includes Chris Barube, Jason DeLeon, Emmett Fitzgerald, Vivian Leigh, Lasha Madon, Joe Rosenberg, Gabriella Gladney, Kelly Prime, Jacob Maldonado Medina, Sarah Bake, and Nina Potok. The 99% Invisible logo was created by Stefan Lawrence.
Starting point is 00:34:41 We are part of the Stitcher and SiriusXM podcast family and this episode was produced in our studios and offices in beautiful, chaotic, midtown Manhattan. You can find us on all the usual social media sites as well as our new Discord server. There's a link to that and you can go off listening to every single solitary past episode of 99PI at 99PI.org.

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