99% Invisible - Hidden Levels #5: Press B to Touch Grass

Episode Date: October 21, 2025

From blocky biomes to breathtaking open worlds, video games are teaching us new ways to see, build, and even save nature.Hidden Levels is a production of 99% Invisible and WBUR's Endless Thread. Subscribe to SiriusXM Podcasts+ to listen to new episodes of 99% Invisible ad-free and a whole week early. Start a free trial now on Apple Podcasts or by visiting siriusxm.com/podcastsplus.  Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Roman Mars. Ben, Brock Johnson. So you were a father of twins. I am a father of twins. I would like to introduce you to one of my twins. This is my son who got the name I always wanted. Brock Johnson. Hello, Roman Mawes.

Oh, you're fired. This kid's coming for you. He'll have my resignation on his desk on Monday morning. for sure. That's right. Brock is doing what a lot of eight-year-olds do these days. He is designing a very ridiculous tree house that I do not have the ability or the resources to construct. He is riding his bike as fast as possible. And he is starting to play, just starting to play video games, which offer him this whole universe of different worlds to inhabit. He likes smashing things just as much as the next eight-year-old or 45-year-old in my case.

But, you know, when I asked him about what he really loves about playing video games, he's not just about smashing things. He's about game environments. I play a lot of the tundra biome and sometimes the forest biome. Forest biome? Yeah. What do you like about the forest in video games? You can really transform the forest into a nice home.

And there's really cool bushes. Sometimes I really like the bushes. I can always be like, hmm, is there something tangled up at this bush? And it's really fun to imagine what could happen. And sometimes it does happen. You know, I've never heard an eight-year-old use the word biome so much. Like, he's just really, like, insorseled by the outside world inside of his, you know, indoor kids game. I know. He really is. And the first time he said it, it was sort of a record scratch for me. But I can see why. You know, the games that you and I played when we were growing up, right, they're really simplistic in the way that they depict or capture natural environments. But games now are getting really good at rendering things like bushes that might have something tangled up in them and trees. It is way more realistic and immersive than it used to be.

And that's what we're going to talk about today. This is Hidden Levels, how the world of video games is changing the world beyond video games. Endless threads, senior producer Dean Russell takes it from here. Cassie Ann was raised to be what you might call outdoorsy. A wild child of the mid-aughts, dirt under fingernails, grass on the knees. Cassie was a rain or shine kid. I was outside all of the time, at least when I could be, because we do have very harsh winters here sometimes. Though that never stopped me.

Sometimes I would just go out in the snow and be completely soaked. Cassie and their family lived in rural Vermont, a beautiful spot east of Lake Champlain in a valley of pine and birch and oak and maple. Some of Cassie's favorite things. Giant trees. Big into trees. Nature was everything. A place they could explore. It was a place to hang with friends, a place to build forts and fairy villages, a place to be.

In those early years of life, nature felt limitless. It felt good. Until one day, it didn't. I was like 10 or 12, like somewhere in that early second decade. And I was out playing with my friends. I had a lot of friends who had like farms growing up and we loved to play in the hay bales. On that day, when Cassie tired themselves out and came inside, they noticed something.

Cassie's skin was red, puffy, itchy. Honestly, it was a little scary. I never had that reaction before, and I don't know where it came from. And so, like, their mom was, like, giving me Benadryl and, you know, the creams and stuff like that. But it was so bad I had to go home in the middle of the sleepover. And I was like, I was just so embarrassed. This reaction was new. It felt invasive and confusing.

It went away, but they didn't know what it was. On another day, Cassie went to the beach. Suddenly, they felt awful, feverish even. These episodes became more frequent. Pretty soon, rashes and fevers developed. It felt like almost every time they went outside. They saw doctors who couldn't give a clear singular diagnosis. What they did come to know is that they are allergic to hay,

allergic to grass, immunocompromised, extremely sensitive to the heat of the sun, or as some put it, allergic to the sun. It was like their body had decided enough with the outdoors. I mean, I just kind of became a little bit of a shut-in, I guess, which is sort of expected. I just kind of retreated into my room. Very much so. And, you know, I'd have the window open if I could,

but I definitely stopped spending time outside. Doctors didn't know what caused Cassie's body to turn on them, or if they'd ever get better. They still don't know. What is clear is that Cassie, someone who loved the outdoors, who thrived with their hands in the dirt, had to become a lot more indoorsy.

But they couldn't give up. They had to find another way to get it. And for a kid in the 2000s, there was one obvious place to turn. What's your favorite game? Oh, Minecraft. Sorry. I'm really excited there. Cassie freaking loves Minecraft.

Minecraft is, by the numbers, the most popular video game in the world. Over 350 million copies have been sold. since it launched in 2009. The spinoff Jack Black movie, which you probably heard of, grossed nearly a billion dollars this year. Anything you can dream about here, you can make zero limits. You know what I'm talking about. The game is a Lego-like world of 16 pixel by 16 pixel by 16 pixel blocks.

The trees are blocks, the animals, the rocks, all blocks. Minecraft has no points, no prescribed goal, really. You mine with pickaxes and punch trees for lumber. Yeah, punch trees. Then you can build or not. One of the things Cassie enjoyed most in the game was walking, walking around in the game and exploring, because Minecraft is a virtually endless world of forests,

farmlands, deserts, oceans, caves, you name it. It became Cassie's point. portal to the outdoors. I started playing it, like, pretty much every day. I had my little server with my friends, and whenever my friends would kind of burn out from it and play something else, I would just go in my single player world and build. It kind of never mattered to me that, like, the Minecraft environments were, like, 16 by 16 pixels or whatever, because in my head, I was, like, I was so familiar with that feeling of, like,

walking through the woods and being outside, that it kind of just translated into my experiences in game. This is like Minecraft-generated terrain. This is a monitor barn that's specifically for livestock. Yeah, and you got like a butterfly garden and... There's some tadpoles in here. You can see them. Oh, you know we're underwater.

Cassie is now 22, and they are better known by their Minecraft handle Snifferish. Snifferish is a Minecraft influencer. They are internet famous. Between TikTok, Twitch, and YouTube, they have some 3 million followers. People who watch hours-long videos of Snifferish building some of the most elaborate landscapes. When in my first videos, it was like a farm video, and I built a fire pond. And everyone was like, what is a fire pond? And I was like, some of these builds will take months to make. I built this very classic white farmhouse, and then this is a monitor barn, which is a barn that's specifically for livestock. Snifferish has even been commissioned by the makers of Minecraft to design mini-worlds.

Oh, my gosh. Now we've got giant mountains in the background. All because Snifferish, Cassie, has a unique understanding of the game's virtual nature, a nature that, for Cassie and many others, feels quite real. I know for a fact that video games make people interested in nature because they're seeing nature that they've never experienced before and it's making them almost want to go experience it. And then in turn, you know, you have people who are already interested in nature and therefore get into video games because of that.

Video games are arguably the antithesis. of nature, highly constructed worlds, synthetic, inorganic. If you grew up gaming, you may recall grown-ups telling you to shut down the console, go outside and touch some grass. These days, though, touching grass isn't something you have to do outside. As gaming has grown into a $200 billion industry, the boundary between screen and soil has muddied. New technologies and types of play are getting gamers,

ever closer to the experience of real nature. And yet, in a kind of weird feedback loop, those same technologies and types of play meant to simulate nature are now changing the real thing in ways that could outlast us all. Since the start of gaming history, virtual nature has played many roles, served many purposes, and been represented in many ways.

Space War, a 1962 game on a circular screen computer, was maybe the first with quote-unquote nature, space, aka white dots on a black backdrop. When games advanced, virtual nature also evolved. As always with the industry, it's usually a push toward more verisimilitude and toward more accuracy. Alenda Chang is a professor at UC Santa Barbara, and a gamer. Alenda studies video game ecology, wrote a book on it. Why would an academic study ecology in games? For a lot of people, that is their daily dosage or whatever, their weekly dosage of encounter with the natural environment.

right, or at least the representation of a natural environment. Yeah, I haven't been hiking this week, but I have been to the mountains of Hyrule, so, you know, there's that. Oh, excellent. Hyrule Kingdom, Zelda, she gets it. The Legend of Zelda, Nintendo's long-running franchise with dozens of games, is actually a good example of how nature has evolved throughout gaming history. There is something about Nintendo and also the Zelda franchise itself that has always been at the forefront of natural representation in games. You can think of video game nature's evolution in three big eras, three big Zelda's. Let's start with Era 1.

The first Zelda game comes out in 1986. It's two-dimensional, eight-bit. You play as Link, a pointy-eared warrior. saving Princess Zelda from a panceless evil hog monster in the magical world of Hyrule. Link is a flat, pixelated figure moving over flat, pixelated approximations of lakes and caves. Did you see the latest Nintendo newsletter? Whoa, nice graphics. I'd like to get my hands on that game. Everything down to the character itself occupies a very discreet square or rectangle.

You know, so if it's a forest, all the trees are the same and they're sort of replicated in a grid, right, or rocks and things. And so you get the sense that it was, like, all very carefully placed and scenic in the sense of, like, scenery. As with most games, then, nature is little more than background, a placement. So, error two. Skip ahead a decade to gaming's 3D. period, when games, including Zelda, start centering nature in their gameplay.

It's 1998, Zelda's 3D Akarina of Time. Pixels are replaced by large, brightly colored polygons, triangles, typically, that snap together to create an origami-like forest world. In Akarina of Time, you're still in Hyrule, still fighting monsters. At this time, nature is not just background. Nature is a key part of the game. To accomplish your goals and progress, you need to interact with it. Link swims, he lifts rocks, he chats up a talking tree,

all to prevent the bad guy from plunging green high roll into ruin. If you go back and look at footage from play-throughs of Ocarina of Time, you see the sort of vision of being able to traverse the world in a very embodied and three-dimensional way. Akarina of Time fit into a breed of 3D games, Final Fantasy 7, Spyrode the Dragon, which gave nature a more evolved role. But that was nothing compared to what came next,

a new type of game, one that would truly blur the lines between virtual and real nature. Era 3, an era that dominates modern gaming. Open world. Open world is this moment. moniker that gets attached to games, meaning you as a player can traverse these virtual spaces without the impression of having limits.

In open-world games, nature is neither just a place setting nor a means to an end. They are immersive with seemingly boundless landscapes, and their gameplay is often non-linear, where experiencing nature can be a goal in its own right. Thinking about ecology and games, I think it's a huge, it's a huge development because you can now tell stories where you can, by all appearances, wander around a fully realized, immersive game environment. Truly giant open world games started popping up in the 90s and early Aughts, EverQuest and World War. craft. And by 2017, you guessed it, Zelda. Zelda Breath of the Wild is wild. Link is no longer a composite of large polygons, but a hyper-detailed teenager with flaxen hair that whips in the wind. He slash you are dropped into an enormous

world where you can run for hours without hitting a wall. And if you hit a wall, you can climate. I was completely blown away by not only the beauty of the game environments, but also in terms of liveliness and agency of the non-human environment. So, you know, the fact that in Breath of the Wild, when it rains, you have more trouble climbing things was amazing. I was thrilled. The high rule environments, deserts, tundras, plains, they are practically ecosystems. Their components interact with you and each other. You can tame a wild horse or collect mushrooms or do nothing and the world keeps turning. Rivers flow, rain slicks rocks, bears hunt deer, trees burn and fall, all on their own. Breath of the Wild is one of those games

where you can put the controller down and you can walk away and things will continue to happen. And you can also stay like you're saying and just really enjoy a scenic overlook or a storm coming in or or, you know, like a herd of wild horses coming by, right? So I think that increases the sense of realism and also the sense of stakes for players because you are more vulnerable in some way. You're part of that environment in a way that didn't happen with earlier games. Breath of the Wild is one example, but today we're living. living in a golden age of open world games.

Red Dead Redemption 2, Skyrim, Assassin's Creed, The Hunter, Call of the Wild, No Man Sky, Gosa, Tsushima. People play these games differently. Some focus on the main objective. Some bounce around, taking screenshots of butterflies, really. Because today's games are closer than ever to a true nature experience. Of course, true nature experience means different things to different people. I don't know.

It was just, it was so fun to walk around. I love walking around a game. I love just, like, taking a little stroll. Cassie, sniffer-ish, loves Minecraft not because it looks realistic. I mean, it's all blocks. The sun radiates at right angles. But Minecraft's nature, despite its blockiness, does feel real. Part of Minecraft's realism is its diversity.

The game has over 60 different environments or biomes, each with their own plants, animals, and landscapes, players can access a kind of nature that is not right out their front door. Growing up in, like, the classic temperate forest, having access to those other biomes that I definitely don't have access to, like, beaches even. I'm in a landlock state. I don't see beaches. Like, it's interesting. And also it kind of lets me, I could build my house on a beach. I can build my house in a rainforest, you know? I can't do that in real life. The realism in Minecraft is also in its scale. If Zelda feels endless, Minecraft is endless.

You can wake up every day, walk east, and never stop if you want. Some guy actually did that. He made it 58 days before he chose to stop the game, because the game wasn't going to stop him. These features of open worlds, their diversity and scale, the way you can walk forever and never see the same scene twice, that experience is possible because of some. called Procedural Generation.

Procedural Generation is a technique that creates nature algorithmically, not manually. You don't place every tree in the game. You give the computer rules and the computer populates the scene for you. This is something Agnes Larson told me. She's game director at Mojang, maker of Minecraft. It's not possible to design each part of an endless world by hand. Procedural generation is the reason to why we can create this world with different biomes, different kind of building blocks. There are oceans. We create continents.

Procedural generation came out of the late 70s as a way of creating rudimentary but semi-randomized grid-like environments. Nowadays, Minecraft developers tell the game's software the rules of the world, like where mangrove trees grow, or which creatures live in which climate. and the software executes. Each thing is simple by design, and the visuals are simple, and the mechanics are simple, and that means that it can kind of be combined in an endless amount of complex ways.

The procedural rules in Minecraft's game design are akin to the laws of nature. Just as with nature, the magic is in the unexpected combinations. Even as a Minecraft developer, Agnes has been genuinely surprised by some landscapes because she didn't invent them. Not exactly. I remember walking into this location that it was a big mountain and then there was a huge waterfall because a lake had generated on top of the mountain.

And then we also happened to generate a lush cave biome. So the waterfall went into these wines. that came down from, like, the sides of the caves. And it was just very dramatic because there was so much contrast. As gamers and developers told me, it is the pursuit of nature that inspired technologies, like procedural generation. It also fueled a new wave of graphics.

Graphics that if you haven't seen a brand-new video game in a while, go look, because it's crazy. The Last of Us, too, a lot of it is borderline photorealism with a dash of style. Jeremy Huxley is an environmental artist. He's worked on games heralded for their looks, including Uncharted 4. And The Last of Us Part 2, the game turned HBO series, where Fungi calls the zombie apocalypse. I'm not infected. I'm immune.

Yeah, I was lucky enough to get to work on the fungus team. And I was focused on materials, so I would do a lot of the same. snow and rocks and stuff like that. The Last of Us 2 and Uncharted 4 are linear games, technically not open world, but they are large worlds and they look unbelievably believable because of people like Jeremy. His job is to study nature and blend art and tech to mimic it. Actually, when we were developing the tech for Uncharted 4, we didn't fully understand, for example, like how translucency worked on leaves.

So we literally went out, gathered a bunch, and then we took a light box, that you would use for, like, animating, cast light through them to kind of see how it reacted. And we took a lot of notes there, and then we were able to sort of simulate that. When you're designing a game environment, you use a library of assets, trees, rocks. You can design them from scratch,

a process called sculpting, which is Jeremy's forte. But you can also fill that library with real trees and real rocks, scanned from life into the virtual world. The fidelity level is extremely high, You can literally just create realism now because you can go out and scan nature these days. Scanning is what it sounds like, but on a meticulous level. Professionals go into the wild with handheld light or laser scanners

or they use intense camera equipment to take thousands of photos of a single object from every conceivable angle. That data is then uploaded to a game engine. Software used to make games. This means that some tree you bump into in the game may actually be the digital ghost of a living tree. Game engines then make the tree come to life to blow in the breeze and shimmer in the sun.

What I'm using currently is Unreal Engine 5. We have insane amounts of processing power. You can use tons of geometry. Materials react naturally to light, like you were saying. Even Minecraft is doing the similar thing. This sort of stuff is really difficult to do, but it's really powerful that we have this sort of thing. So, procedural generation creates a game world that feels dynamic and infinite.

Scans make the world beautiful in a way that real nature is beautiful. And then game engines animate it into being. Together, they make the nature in video games feel very close to the real thing. But that dynamic also works in reverse, because today some of the technologies born from gaming are now being used to manipulate the real living world and are place in it. More on that in a minute. In a lot of ways, it makes sense that nature has inspired the games industry. Games are commercial art, and art has been emulating nature since someone drew a pig on a cave wall. But what's maybe less expected is the way the gaming industry has, on a real, tangible level, shaped the living world.

How much have video games influenced nature? In my field of work, heavily. Tysha Fabritius works in Zurich for a company called Esri. Esri uses video game technologies like procedural generation and game engines to map the real world. Or even, recreate it. How much do you know about digital twins? If I say digital twins, does that mean anything to you? Digital twins are functioning animated simulations of a real place.

Think Google Street View meets Grand Theft Auto. Zurich has one. New York has one. Corpus Christi, Texas has one. The more immersive you can experience your world digitally, the better you'll be able to make decisions, right? Digital twins are used primarily in city planning. They're not exact replicas, but living models of a place.

And the reason they are possible, is because of technologies pioneered by the games industry. Game engines for one, procedural generation for another. Procedural generation, the game tech that creates worlds algorithmically, can invent a place like in Minecraft. It can also use rules in real-world data to digitally approximate a place that already exists, easily. So instead of some person painstakingly sculpting each building and tree

or even scanning them, You can give the computer a map and information about the landscape, how many stories each building is, or how many trees on each block. And the program uses procedural generation to invent the rest, or fill in the blanks. Then, Esri brings the digital twin to life with game engines. Game engines animate a place so that traffic moves and rain falls. The result is an immersive map that doesn't just look like its real life, twin, it also acts like it.

When you're bringing in real data into game engines and you can create these believable, very visual, very immersive experiences that obviously, quote-unquote, changes the game when it comes to actually making real decisions in the real world. What Ezri does with game engines has been particularly helpful in the age of climate change. As nature itself changes, we need to imagine what will come and how to prepare for the worst. Kauai County, Hawaii, used Esri Tech to animate sea level rise and see how it would affect the area. The county then adopted new construction ordinances.

The National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration used it to visualize heat islands in D.C. L.A. used Esri for response and recovery efforts during the wildfires earlier this year. Taisha says Esri can recreate those fires, allow you to revisit them again and again to understand what went wrong and how to plan for next time. You can be there and see it, and because the data's there and the 3D models, everything looks real. And so you can see it and you're fully immersed in, and it helps you to plan for ways that you can mitigate this then.

And this is not just for cities. Esri partnered with the Nature Conservancy to create a digital twin of point conception in California, a place where Chaparral and Oakwoodlands meets coastal scrub and help forests. There, invasive ice plants are displacing the local flora. Researchers are using the digital twin of point conception to test out ways to eliminate the plants before going IRL in real life. In theory, you could predict which ideas will fight off invasives and which won't. It is a digital proving ground, like a game. Try, fail, respond.

again. While this endless pursuit of a truer virtual nature has made its way into tools for predicting sea level rise and preparing for wildfires, it also comes at a cost, one that is arguably raising the level of the sea and sparking the flames. The number one thing for me is the almost staggering amount of carbon emissions. that come from playing games, from making games, and from all the other peripheral activities around the games industry. You just broke a lot of gamers' hearts out there.

I just have to point that out. Yeah. Ben Abraham researches digital games in climate change. And no, he doesn't hate gaming. Destiny is his favorite game. But also his favorite Earth is, well, Earth. So Ben works for the Sustainable Games Alliance, a nonprofit trying to clean up

the industry for the planet. A difficult task because game companies do not have to disclose their emissions. The best number that I've been able to come up with, and it's just a ballpark figure, really, is around about 50 million tons of CO2 per annum. And most people will just be like, okay, that sounds like a lot because it's a million, but what is that? Well, it's bigger than Hollywood. It's probably around about the same sort of emissions as a media. a big-sized European country, like Sweden or Greece. Graphics, game engines, it all bleeds energy. Without more solar and wind, that means burning fossil fuels for the sake of play.

And despite some smart industry moves to make games more energy efficient, the fuels keep burning. And emissions... They are absolutely going up. I mean, there's almost no question, yeah. And I think we need to reckon with that fact. and, you know, figure out what is a sustainable path for the games industry? I don't think that we've got a vision of one yet. Part of what's fueling emissions is, ironically, the push to create more realistic environments.

Think of the CPU slash energy needed for scanning. You take thousands of photos of one tree and upload them into software, which renders that tree as a 3D model with multiple layers of detail and especially calibrates it to, say, authentically reflect light. And then that model is fed into an AI-supported engine where it's downloaded and perhaps used to procedurally fill in the virtual world, all in the name of getting us to admire the fake tree instead of going outside where the real drought-ridden trees are no longer any more alive than the one in the game. Anyway, some people see it differently. Game Ecology professor Alenda Chang thinks it's more of a mixed bag. I have to acknowledge the sort of environmental impact of the powerful computers and graphical processes.

units on the world, right? But I think also games do have a really profound influence on people's understandings or perceptions or attitudes toward the natural world, or at least they can. Games are media. Media have a huge effect on people psychologically, and people have a huge effect on nature. Fill the earth and subdue it. Set a book once, people took that to heart. But the messaging in games can be quite different than the Old Testament. Take Minecraft. Punch down a tree and you'll need to plant another one to replace it.

Punch down all the trees and you're out. Resources are finite, just like in nature. Maybe that sounds small, but again, Minecraft, a game created by Mojang, a small studio in Sweden, Minecraft is the most popular game in the world. 20% of its players are kids. They pick stuff up. One small study found kids who played Minecraft learned more about sustainability

than kids who didn't. And there's anecdotal evidence. It's pretty wild and magical to me the power that Mojang has in some ways. You know, just the decision to include axelotles, right? Yes, axelottles, the critically endangered salamanders with pointy punk rock headgills.

After Minecraft added them to the game in 2021, Google searches spiked. An Acelotto Sanctuary told NPR at the time that nearly every kid who visited came because of Minecraft. Games are, you know, these really incredible storytelling machines and they can just leave us with a feeling or they can leave us with a sensation. And that might be enough. Yeah. That might be enough to propel somebody to think differently or to care about something that isn't just them. As your wardrobe a specific choice against the sun?

Yes, yeah, I'm like always wearing pants in summer. Over the years, Minecraft-loving, allergic to the sun, Cassie, has found ways to be more outdoorsy again. With the right season, the right weather, the right clothing, and sometimes a really annoying journalist who won't shut up about nature, Cassie still sees green. So a while back, we went for a hike in the foothills of Western Vermont. Do you ever just, like, look out and see the world in blocks?

No, actually. Yeah, I feel like I'm more focused on translating our world into Minecraft than Minecraft into our world, if that makes sense. So you're not punching trees? No. Definitely not. Cassie, their partner and I, went in our way through white birches and red maples and across a field of tall grass.

There was a breeze, birds, nature was moving. Oh, look, there's a little snake. Oh, there it goes. Okay. We followed trail signs and a dirt path, reminders that even in reality, few places are truly natural. Like players in Minecraft, we've sculpted this world. But even under the heaviest footprint, there is something there, something beyond ourselves and our ambitions.

That something is and will always be irreplicable. because we didn't make it. And that is quite a thing. Should we go to the end? Yeah, sure. All right. To the parking lot. To the parking lot.

Yay. So we can get in our cars. Go play video games. Yeah. So, Roman Mars. Ben Brock Johnson. Do you know what I love about those huge open world games like Ghosts of Tsushima, the game where you play a samurai defending his Japanese island from the first Mongol invasion?

I don't know everything you love about them, but what do you love? I love me a side quest, you know? Side quest, of course. Side quest. The little mission you can. do that's not necessarily part of the big mission. In Ghost of Tsushima, they have so many of these. You can practice your sword skills on these bamboo things. You can follow foxes to shrines where you pray. You can write haikus. There's lots of side quests you can do. And we have one more side quest for our hidden levels listeners on the endless thread feed, right? Yeah, that's right. And this one

comes to us from producer Grace Tatter. Hi, Ben. Hi, Roman. Hey. Hey. Grace, tell us a little bit more about this journey you are taking us on with your side quest. What's the story? Okay, so this is a story about a renowned surgeon. He's a pioneer in his field, and he has a theory that playing video games could help other doctors be better surgeons. Does this surprise you as an idea? Like gamers could be better surgeons, Roman? Oh my God. No, it does not surprise me as an idea. Because, you know, we've talked about this, like the dexterity, the tools, the reaction, all that sort of stuff, is built into video games, and I imagine it's like a cornerstone to what makes a good surgeon a good surgeon. Would it surprise you to learn that non-gamer surgeons might be skeptical of this idea?

I mean, the funny thing about doctors in general is that doctors have some fealty to tradition. Yes. That makes these types of developments, you know, sometimes hard for some of them to accept. Yeah, that's exactly right. The doctor in this story, it was quite the quest for him to prove this theory in the 90s and the 2000s, because a lot of people really did not believe that video games had any place in medicine. Dr. Rosser is considered one of the best at this in the world, and it's all because he figured out something no one else had thought of.

That was a big breakthrough. You know, he said, oh, Mom, look, I plan donkey come, and it still can help me save lives. Roman, that story is ready for us to listen to right now in our feed, Endless Threat. And coming up Friday on the final boss of Hidden Levels, we bring you a dispatch from the console wars. Sega was the challenger, right? Sega was never the king.

Sega was just coming up to the king and asking for a fight. This episode was produced by Dean Russell, edited by Kelly Prime. Mix, sound design, and music composition by Paul Vikis, Additional mixing by Martin Gonzalez. Series theme by Swan Real and Paul Bikis. The super cool music by Swan and Paul for Hidden Levels is being released as an album. You can listen everywhere.

You stream music. Fact-checking by Graham Hesha. Special thanks to Samuel Auberg, Alex Beecham, Tracy Fullerton, Will Mattia, Kelsey Myers, and Mike Rojou. The managing producer for Hidden Levels is Chris Barubei, Hidden Levels was created by me, Ben Brock Johnson, while dancing in a Fortnite game lobby with power-ups and cheat codes thanks to Team 99% Invisible and Team Endless Threat. 99% Invisible's executive producer is Kathy 2. Kurt Kohloste is the digital director.

Delaney Hall is our senior editor. The rest of the team includes Jason Deliom, Emmett Fitzgerald, Christopher Johnson, Vivian Lay, Lajmadon, Jacob Medina Gleason, Joe Rosenberg, and me, Roman Mars. The 99% of the logo was created by Stefan Lawrence. the art for hidden levels was created by Aaron Nestor. We are part of the Sirius XM podcast family, now headquartered six blocks north in the Pandora building. In beautiful, uptown, Oakland, California.

Endless Threat is a production of WBUR, Boston's NPR. The rest of our team tackling Unsolved Mysteries, untold histories, and other wild stories from the internet, includes my illustrious co-host, Amory Siebertson, managing producers, Summit to Joshi, editor, Meg Kramer, producers Grace Tatter, Franny Monaghan, and sound designer, Emily Jenkowski. See you on Friday, everybody.