A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein - A Morning With Vivian Wilson, Elon’s Estranged Daughter

Episode Date: May 16, 2025

In today’s special episode, we’re taking a break from political and cultural analysis to chat with someone who’s been at the center of today’s culture wars but rarely in her own voice: Vivian Jenna Wilson, Elon Musk’s 21-year-old estranged trans daughter. She tells us about her decision to take back her voice after years of being spoken for by an unsupportive father, dealing with lunatics online, and putting Jordan Peterson in his place. Listen to bonus episodes on Patreon! Thanks to today’s sponsors! Work smarter, not harder, with Factor meals ready in two minutes at https://www.factormeals.com/fruity50off.  Get 15% off a cuter, more sustainable way to clean at https://www.blueland.com/fruity.  Find Vivian Wilson on Instagram. Find me on Instagram. Find A Bit Fruity on Instagram. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I'm just a human being with a soul. I'm just kidding. I got my soul so I'm removed. Hello, hello, and welcome back to A Bit Fruitie. Today, we have a little bit of a different show. This is not usually an interview podcast. It's usually a culture and political analysis podcast, but I recently got to know someone who really exists at the center of so many conversations

that we have on this podcast, but who we have, yet to hear from on the fruity podcast, Mike. And so I thought, now's the time. I have invaded Matt's place or presidents. Welcome to the podcast and welcome to my apartment, Vivian, Jenna Wilson. Vivian, you have had a whirlwind few months. I have, yes. Sort of into public figurehood, into this, like, very strange internet spotlight,

which I'm, like, sort of familiar with, but not nearly probably the way that you are at this point. And I'm just curious, like, how are you doing right now? I'm doing good. It's definitely, like, a lot to get used to all at once. Because it was very much, in my specific instance, it was like, there was no training as well. It was zero to 100. So it's just, it's a bit of a struggle to get, like, acclimated to it.

But obviously, I'm very grateful for all the support and love I've received. And this is just such a unique experience. and I want to enjoy it and live life to the fullest. That was the most pageant. You were giving your pageant answer. Oh, I'm done. Hi, thank you. Thank you.

Do you want world peace? God. I'm proud of queen. I'll fight hard for world peace. Thank you, thank you. This moment means so much to me. I keep getting those fucking cheer videos on my TikTok. I mean, it's an earnest podcast, but it's not that earnest.

Oh, real. That was like, really. real pageant material. That was real pageant material. Or it's my honest answer. I'm sorry. Damn. Well, but it, I mean, it really has come at you so quickly. Vivian got to my apartment a little while ago and we've just been having coffee and chatting it up. It's a really rainy day here in New York. Yeah. And you were telling me about how you went from like 22 followers on threads one day to it just like ballooning. It ballooned up. Yeah, immediately. It went from like literally 22 followers where I was shit posting about K-pop and like chatting with the gaggle of other trans people on a dead app to like 60,000 followers or something like that in the course of one night, it was like nothing. And then, oh, Jamie Lee Curtis just like knows who you are now. I'm like, well, that's kind of coconut.

And then I feel like there's also like coverage of the things that you put out on threads. Yeah, especially pink news. I literally will like post anything on threads and there'll be like an article about it the next day. I mean, I'm so curious because. Because, like, as someone who works, like, on the internet and, like, I do this podcast for a job and whatever, like, everything happened pretty slowly. Like, I've been doing this for, like, six years and, like, I've had time to incrementally get used to it. Yeah. I mean, just a few months ago, you were a very, very private person. Yeah. And all of a sudden, you're less so. It was, I mean, I've always been, like, a pretty, I don't know if ostentatious is the right word.

It was very SATs. But I've always been, like, a very kind of, like, extra. person, not necessarily extroverted, more so now, obviously. You kind of have to be. But I was kind of like overly charismatic enthusiastic. I was kind of like, I had a bit of Thorgy Thoris situation where like, if there was something I liked doing, it was like, wow, you guys were going to do it. I don't know what the fuck that voice was. It was a little toad. Wow, we're going to save the castle. I don't know. I'm just curious if it's been overwhelming or how you're dealing with it. I mean, like it has very much so been overwhelming.

but like I am doing everything I can to not be overwhelmed and just be overwhelmed. I was also curious like what made you decide to not like step into this role. There's not really a role, but like spite. Okay. So the reason I got famous, but those of you don't know, other than nepotism, the reason the nepotism happened, Jordan Peterson was on a podcast with certain someone.

And obviously that's the fucking thing where the, my son, savior, he's dead. And when Peterson was like, oh my God, I'm so, I don't know why I'm giving the British accent. It's honestly really good. I think it's just way more funny that way. I think you're making Jordan Peterson sound like a little bit nicer than he actually sounds. I'm making the sound way hotter than that.

He's like, wow. Like I think Jordan Peterson. I feel like he can't. No, that's too nasally. Hold on. He has this kind of like overly gravelly voice. Wow, that happened to your child. Like that's actually accurate.

That's like Toad on Jordan Peterson. What is with the Toad Voices today? Yeah. But Jordan Peterson was on this podcast and was like, oh my God, I'm so sorry that your child is dead. And I was like, just over there in the corner of literally in my small fucking apartment in Tokyo going to college. And I was like, did this bitch just try to come for me? And I was like, no. No, I was literally like, hell fucking no.

I am not about to let this bitch come for me and have that just slime. So I had my little threads response and it went mega coconuts viral. I keep saying mega coconuts. I stole that from Natalie Win. I'm so sorry. I also say coconuts and bananas all the time because of Natalie Win. She has like infested trans vocabulary and gay vocabulary. Yeah.

Like infested. It's super mega fucking coconut. It's super mega fucking coconuts. So you hear this like dumb podcast. Yeah. And you're like, nope, I want to have a voice in this. I literally saw it. I woke up. I woke up to this. This is the first thing I experienced that day. Imagine the sun rising.

They're like being like, my God, I'm ready for another day. It was a week before finals week. So I should have been studying, but I was like fucking around. And by fucking around, I mean, rotting in my apartment, watching TikToks and like viring. Then I take my little phone. I open the phone. I see a text from my aunt. I open the text. I love the way you're telling this. Yes. And she's like, this bitch just tried to. come for me for you and I was like gasp double gas this is not how it happened at all I love the like telenovelification of this family drama exactly yeah I know I love the tell I think we should I think everyone should telomelicize everything I think it's more fun I mean influencers basically do that I'm just being honest I saw the clip and and Jordan Peterson was like he's dead so the first thing I do is I text my mom and I'm like I can't let this bitch get to me

I must retaliate. I'm so sorry, mother. I'm going into... I don't know what the fuck this bit is. I texted my mom. I'm just going to do normal voice now. So sorry. I text my mom and I'm like,

I'm going to go public. So sorry. You cannot stop me. And at that point, she was kind of just like, yeah, I trust you. Do what you need to do. Obviously, just be careful and whatnot. And then later on, I take a nap or whatever.

And then I wake up and I text my friends. Obviously, I get like a bunch of texts. because this thing went like super fucking viral. I don't think you'll understand. Well, honestly, the people listening to this podcast were paying attention. Yeah. The thing went super viral. And I'm getting like a bunch of texts.

And I text my friends that I'm going to go public. And my friend was, true thing, I was like kind of used to that, especially after the book came. There was a book came out. They should talk to me, whatever. It's fine. Fuck you, Walter Isaacson. Yeah. Fuck you, Walter Isaacson.

That was direct. And my friend also, I think everyone has that one friend where they get. Because, like, I'm used to this shit. She wasn't. She was so much angrier than I was about the whole situation. Because I was, like, Nolan Boyd to it. And I was like, I'm going public. And she was like, oh, my God, bitch, fuck.

Yes, I'm so excited for you. You better eat him alive. And I was like, I will do my best. And then I did my best. And then Jamie Lee could have followed me. That's the story of how it happens. Prior to that, I mean, you had always lived a private life. I mean, yeah, pretty much.

And I had, like, no socials. Yeah. My social role, like, private. I mean, it feels like the privacy was almost kind of taken from you. I don't know if it was necessarily taken from me because I chose to respond. Yeah. And when I chose to respond, I knew what I was getting into. And even then, I could have done the threads post and then disappeared back into the wind.

And I didn't. Yeah. That's my choice. So I'm not going to say it was taken from me. It was, I was given a choice. And I chose. You said a second ago to me that your response actually went more viral than the initial podcast clip.

And how was that? Valitating. Yeah. Very valid. That was the moment I realized, oh, fuck, I actually do have a voice. Yeah. Because before that, I kind of was just like, I felt so powerless. Also, I had all this like pent up emotion, obviously from childhood and life and

whatever. And it was literally probably the most cathartic moment of my entire life doing that. that's really amazing to hear because I feel like I would imagine it could have been like super overwhelming and it probably was but it was like a it was also like very exciting it was like oh no it was very jasmine did you anticipate the level of support honestly no I thought there would be there would be a lot more backlash than there was obviously the conservatives hate me so girl it's easy to compartmentalize when conservatives hate you I feel like like for me it's like once you get called a faggot at once you get called a faggot at a thousand times once you get called an age to be once once you get called when you're an HSTS BRIC hunt or whatever the fuck was you being called. This is like crazy 4-channelingo that I had to, my ex had to explain to me what an AGP brick hunt was. I have literally no idea. And an HSTS Passoid because so people were calling me these things and I was like, I have no,

like she told me that people were calling me this. I was like, I looked at her. I'm like, what the fuck does that mean? Okay. So apparently here's a thing. I knew what password was. I did not know what any of the other ones was. Passoid is it's like the most 4chan should imagineable.

Yeah. Fortune has the LGBT board, the TTT one, TTTTTTTTTTT. Okay. And what it is, it's a bunch of like lonely conservative trans femmes in the closet who find the most obnoxious possible way to talk about literally everything regarding the trans experience. They call people who pass passsoids as a derogatory term. They're like also, Fortune is like obsessed with passing.

Like kind of the entire transgender node is obsessed with passing because it's like a reasonable thing to be obsessed about, especially when safety is in the picture. But I feel like it's when the when a slur that someone calls you is so like rooted in terminally online culture that you don't even know what they're calling you. It's like that's kind of the read in and of itself. Yeah. It's like you think you ate that. But the only thing you ate was yourself. No, that's quite that. Yeah.

Yeah. The only thing you ate was yourself. Were you ever scared of to make your voice so public? Oh, yeah. I was definitely scared. Yeah. But like it got to your point where it's like, I don't really have anything to lose. My reputation, I had been dragged so far through the mud.

And I was used as like an example of why trans kids should not exist, basically. And I was like literally at this point, there's nowhere to go but up. Because I was used as that scapego for so long, like in the book. And I keep calling it the book. in the biography, in conservative culture in general, whenever anyone would talk about me. Because for those who you don't know, I got my core document, my name change core documents leaked in 2022. And again, they used that as another example of like how I'm like, I don't know, fucking bunkers, which I am fucking bonkers. But not in that way. Just not in the way that they

accuse you of being in. Exactly. Just a quick break from the episode to thank the sponsor of today's episode, Factor. Lately, between making this podcast and doing live shows for this podcast, which I'm currently touring around for, and making stuff for social media, and trying to sneak in a little bit of extra time just to take care of myself, I honestly haven't had that much time for anything else. Hashtag Girl Boss. Hashtag Ye They Boss. One super helpful way for me to tastefully, no pun intended, cut corners is with Factor. Factor is a meal delivery service with chef-made gourmet meals that are ready to eat in just two minutes. With Factor, there are a bunch of different meal options that you can try for all of your

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That's Factormeals.com slash fruity 50 off. Thank you so much to Factor. And now let's get back to the episode. So you just celebrated five years of coming out? I did. I came out. Congratulations. I came out May 5th, 2020.

I think it was May 5th or 6th. I don't remember which one. Happy 5. Happy 5. Thank you. What was your like coming out like? Okay. It was the cringes coming out.

I think I've, that's I've ever heard of in history. Like I posted it to my into story. One of those, you know, those like extreme close up, like, I call them like crack shots of like your face. Okay. For like the memes. Kind of like the .5 thing, but it was like... Sure, sure, sure, sure. Yeah, it was literally just like a close-up of like my face making like a funny face being cringing shit.

And I had it, hi, everyone, I'm trans, she, her pronouns. And then the bottom left. I was like, because I didn't want to make it a whole thing. And I wanted someone, I wanted people to be able to talk to me about something other than that. So maybe if I mentioned something else, they would grasp onto that and then the conversation would be less awkward. my dumbass thought that less awkward meant talking about the hunger games

So I also said Are you Team Peanut or Team? You're like I'm I was what I had just turned 16 Okay give me a fucking break You're like I'm transgender

What does everyone think about the hunger games Maybe I am I love the strategy there I wish I could have been in your 16 year old brain at the point in which you were strategizing, like, how do I make my coming out less about coming out and more about like Peter? I was like, how do I destroy my social reputation even more?

I mean, I didn't. Obviously, being trans was relatively fun. It was Los Angeles, okay? Like, you grew up in L.A. Yeah, I'm from L.A. But I was like, how do I make everyone think I'm even more of a nerdy shut in than everyone already does? No, I was like not popular at all in high school. I like very much, I kept to myself.

I was that girl. Yeah. And how was coming out? It was cool. I posted all my instance story and then people were like, okay. And then... Was it like fine in your personal life, like until the media came along? Other than the obvious, yes.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, like, there was some struggle. There were some people who struggled to get used to it, but like, whatever. You brought up something about like being basically like turned into a pawn where it's like when conservatives want to talk about trans people, they talk about you. It was definitely one of the pawns that they used when they wanted to talk about like why trans kids or like friend wash or whatever the fuck because of the woke mind virus. Love the woke mind virus. I love the woke mind virus.

It's a real virus. It's among my favorite viruses. It's among our favorite viruses. But something that I think so much about and that we get to touch on sometimes on this podcast is the way that like we as culture from sort of all sides politically turn people like. human beings into ponds, into symbols of bigger conversations that, like, may or may not really have anything to do with them. Yeah. And, like, I think about it.

I mean, I always find ways to talk about Britney Spears, but, like, we really, we continue to do this with Britney Spears. I mean, 20 years ago, we did it with Britney Spears regarding, like, we wanted to talk about conversations of, like, young womanhood and sexuality. And we would project all of those complicated things onto Britney Spears, who was, like, an 18-year-old woman. And now we talk about like mental health and disability rights through the body of Britney Spears. Britney Spears' tension over. I just have to slip it in there. I also think about that in the context of like another thing that I've talked about a lot on this podcast, which was like the Dylan Mulvaney Budlite.

Oh my God. I feel so bad. I felt so bad for her. Yeah. Okay. I'm not going to lie. That was one of the things that fucking horrified me about like potentially becoming famous is I saw. I saw. that and literally like the first week of like the first few weeks of becoming famous I was the only thing I could think of was like that could be me someday like are they going to deal in Mulvaney me yeah pretty much and I was like well I'm pretty high up on the list of trans people who conservatives don't like I'm thinking I'm at least in the top 10 yeah so I'm like fuck that might happen to me one day but you don't feel like it has um not yet I don't feel like it has it's cool and it's pretty like fascinating how you're able to

because obviously people have said crazy shit but it seems like you're able to compartmentalize it really well. Yeah, you just push it deep, deep down. Well, I will say, there's one thing I want to talk about the hate comments. When conservative called me a trini and a faggot and whatever, I can say that right. Of course. When they call me a trinity

and his email and a fagot and other source and I'm like, okay, whatever, whatever, I don't care. But then when a leftist says, I saw a leftist saying, like, I find her obnoxious. That one actually kind of hurt because I'm like, I value your opinion. Girl. And I am obnoxious, but you don't need to call me about.

Oh my gosh. I would love to just like talk about like dealing with different types of hate comments because it's so I feel like we were talking about it's like once you've been called a faggot or some slur once by a conservative. It's like it doesn't hit anymore. No, it doesn't. It's like, oh, you're like I know how that feels tick. And like these people, of course they hate me. It's like who cares. Yeah.

But when you get it from people who you think are on. your own like it hurts a lot more and it might be like a way lesser insult yeah but it's from someone who you think should like you yeah i don't know that's my experience that's my experience as well no that's very true it's so hard i remember i used to talk to my therapist about that i was like but they're on my side they're on my side and they're like making tic talks about me or whatever and she was like but if they're talking about you that way then maybe they're not really like as on your side as you think they are yeah there's always going to be someone like He doesn't like you.

And I did see you talk about me by someone who was like, I don't think we should trust her because they're like, is she doing like a sciop? Is this like all fake? And I'm like, bitch, I do not lose like down to my fucking health insurance and sell plan just to be like a fake tranny on the internet. Like what the fuck are you talking about? Like, I don't know. People are also, I mean, people are so, so many people are just desperate to like have a. conspiracy about the world. You know what I mean?

Yeah, no. I'm like, I think there is actually like a lot less conspiracy than people think, which is kind of like a boring answer, but like it's kind of, I feel like a lot of things are less intentional than people think, but we'll see. I don't know. Maybe the moon landing was fate. We're keeping an open mind. It was done with lasers or whatever the fuck. They had Quentin Taranty.

Jewish space it was Jewish space lasers. That's Antisemitic. Yeah, but I'm Jewish. Oh, my God. They're going to clip that and be like, oh, God. Oh, God. I do it to myself. I do it to myself.

I do not actually believe in the Moonlander was made for the fucking record. Thank you very much. And I don't believe the space lasers were Jewish. Who made the space lasers, Matt? Who made them? The Italians. Are you Italian? No.

So you're offending a group. That was some strong anti-Italian ex sentiment on the Ubit Frutie podcast. Sorry. But people being turned into symbols. Like I said, it's something I think about. Sorry, I'm going to say like, people being turned into symbols. Like, are they being turned into symbols? People being turned into symbols.

But they're being turned into symbols or not Matt. People being turned to simple. People being turned to simple. What symbols are they being turned into? Okay. This is the recording process. There's always this. Matt, did you know something?

People being turned into symbols. People are being turned into symbols. The symbols? Mama, they're being turned into. Speaking of people being turned into symbols, it kind of, I feel like, happens from every direction. And you, I was going through your threads account when I was writing down some notes that I wanted to bring up

when I got to talk to you. Is this from my angsty early famous posting days? How early was a month ago? I'm being exposed. How early was a month ago? You shady bitch. You wrote something that I thought was really interesting. You basically wrote that people on the left were referring to you as some sort of like catnus Everdeen heroic rebel figure.

And so what I find interesting about the like kind of reducing people into like these pawns in culture wars and stuff is that, you know, people who hate you will turn you into like a cartoon villain. Yeah. And then the people who are kind of claiming you for their side will turn you into like a cartoon martyr. Yeah. No, it's kind of crazy because like otherwise. just you're being, I don't know, stromand is the right word, but you're being like exaggerated. And there's a sense of connecting dots that don't exist in order to like fulfill this narrative. This is just a lot of fucking buzzwords.

Okay. You're kind of just turned into like a stroman on other side, which is not great. Also, the martyr shit is really weird because I'm like, I'm still alive. Why are you turning me into a martyr? I don't get that. That's like something I did not expect. But it's definitely something I've seen. It's like at the heart of all these conversations that are so much bigger than you.

It's just like this like 21-year-old person. Yeah. I'm just like a 21-year-old bitchy nerd. What do you want now that you're being out in public and all that? Like what do you want people to know from you like the person, not you, the symbol? What I want people to know about me is under the insane, genuinely insane amount of random cultural references that I make and all this obnoxiousness and Rapunzel hair. I'm just a human being with a soul. I'm just kidding.

I got my soul surgeryally removed. That's the gender surgeries they've been talking about. It's the soul removal. They demureify your soul. Sure. Yeah. They take your soul, they make it more demure, and then they give it back to you. In my case, it turned out it was a scam.

Oh, sure. So they just took it and they never gave it back. Okay, I'm going to pull another post of yours. Oh, wow. You posted on threads that people should stop shipping you with Baron Trump. There was an A.O3 fan fiction. featuring B and Baron Trump. That is so horrifying.

I think it was after I made the post. I'm not sure I'd have to check the dates. I'm sure you've seen a lot of crazy shit about yourself, but I'm specifically so sorry about that one. That one is really funny, though. Don't do it, but it is funny. Not happening. Absolutely not.

That twink. Never. Is he a twink? He's like 6'4. Baron Trump is, can you be like a, I don't know, like a fascist child and a twink? Maybe. Yes.

Mileyinopoulinoplas. Myelianopolis, he is a fascist child twink. What is some of the craziest shit that you've seen about yourself? Okay, I've seen some really funny shit. The funniest one I think I've seen, I've posted this on threads, was someone attributed my lore. I'm just going to call it my word because I don't have to go into death every single time. Someone attributed my lore to my astrological sign to explain my behavior in like a critical way because they were conservative. But they also got the astrological sign wrong because they got my wrong.

They were like she is trans because of her sign. Yeah. What sign are you? I'm an aries. Okay. I think they got the Aries part right, but they attributed it to my rising. Okay. And it was a different rising.

Okay. I think my rising is Aries are cancer. So they said like. Horoscopes are making people trans now. Yeah. I wish. That's like the funniest thing I've ever seen. That was like the funniest thing I've ever gone.

Do you ever feel like you're just like hallucinating when you see like just stupid shit about yourself? Yes. All the time. And like, these people live in the Twilight Zone. Yeah. I see a lot of people who, like, go out of their way to make fake accounts with me. I'm like, oh, am I that interesting? Like, a lot of conservatives also.

I've seen a lot of people go on Twitter, try to make an account under, like, my name and use one of my pictures for their profile thing and say, the media has it all wrong. I love that. And it's obviously in a way I would never type. And usually it's like chat GPT or some shit. But, like, it's. The most wild shit I've ever seen. Are they like, I'm a cis girl? I'm actually a cis girl and like everything's fine.

No, they don't think I'm a cis. Obviously, my transition is like documented. So they can't say I'm a cis girl. They were like, I'm like, sorry, I made a mistake. And I've made no mistakes. I've made zero mistakes and I have zero remorse. This would not be an episode of A BitFrudy if I did not give some lashings to conservative LGBT people. Oh, God.

Let's go out of it. The first episode I ever did of this podcast was actually about... You're about to find out. I have a guess. Who's your guess? My guess is Kaylin Conrad just made a see why our documentary about Brianna Wu. So is it Brianna Woo. It's not Brianna Woo.

Oh, who is it? The first episode of this podcast that I ever did was with Natalie Wynn, who we both love. I love her. And it was about LGBT conservatives. And as I was scrolling some things that you've posted, you gave some very, I think, well-deserved lashings to trans-conservative YouTuber Blair White. Oh, I'm being messy, I see. I mean, I'm not being messy.

She came for me first. What did she say? This was like in 2022 when the only thing I was public about me was the court document that was released and what was said about me in the book. That was all anyone knew about me. And she was, she attributed the fact that I was trans to my, to the fact that my high school had a cross-dressing day, which was news to me. And I hadn't, because I was like, I had literally never heard of this or remembered it.

Like maybe it happened that I just wasn't paying attention or was absent that day. Sounds fabulous. But apparently they stopped it the year before I entered the school. So never even happened. And that's not how people become trans. And she knows that. Why do you think someone like Blair White is so desperate? Yeah.

She makes a fuck ton of money in sponsorships. Yeah. And like YouTube at. I keep fucking fucking with the table. I'm sorry. That's okay. It's money. Correct.

And like attention. I do think she genuinely believes what she says, though. You do. Maybe like a slightly less exaggerated version. But like, I mean, I know there are a bunch of like hosts of like Fox News that are like apparently liberal on these seats allegedly, which I'm not sure if I believe. Yeah. I mean, my take with that kind of stuff is it's like it actually doesn't even matter if they really believe it or not.

It doesn't. What matters is what they say is the result of the product. Exactly. of the product they put out in the world. And like, whether or not you go home and you're like, I'm actually nice behind the scenes, it's like, doesn't matter because you're not nice in front of the scenes. Yeah, because regardless of what they actually think,

the product is the product. And the product is working as intended. Fucking Blair White. She is so interesting to me. I mean, she's not that interesting because, like, you said, it's like, once you're making money from that sort of speech, it's like, okay, well, you're just going to do it as long as it's making money. She's gone progressively further right.

Oh, so fuck you, Blah, White. I want to get that out there. Yeah. Yeah. Fuck Blur White. Fuck LGBT conservatives. It's a fixation that I have because I'm just like... How?

How? And like you said, it's like once they're making money from it. But there are like LGBT conservatives who are also like not making money. That's the thing. And I'm like, there's just, you know, so much self-hatred. Again... It's like delusion. Like they genuinely think that these people like actually tolerate them.

That's like, no, they don't. I think it's like, no. I think it has a lot of delusion. And it's like this optimism about like, no, I'm one of the good ones. I promise I'm one of the good ones. But they'll never see you that way. There's like a desperation from validation because like if someone says, Natalie one actually talks about this. If someone says something negative about you, you might be more inclined to believe it's true.

And conservatives say negative shit about the gays and the trans people all the time. I literally just said the trans people all the time. The gays and the trans people. The gays. You can say it. I can. The gay. It's your microphone.

I'm really good point. Okay, I don't want to be accidentally. People are mad at me that I say the word trinies a lot. But I mean, I think it's really funny. That is not my cross-to-air. Blair White also says trend. Does she? I think.

Probably, but she probably means it negatively. If someone says something negative about you, especially in regards to your trans identity, because obviously, especially when starting out, you're kind of desperate for anyone to perceive you as what you perceive yourself as. And you might be going to like really negative places and going to depths that you shouldn't be going to in search for validation, even if it's fake. And I think that might be kind of where some LGBT conservators are at. Obviously, I'm not one, and I'm not like a psychologist

or anything. So it's not really correct of me to psychoanalyze an entire group of people. But, like, I don't know. Maybe that has something to do with something. A quick break from the episode to give a shout out to Blue Land. Blue Land was the first sponsor this podcast ever had when it was hardly even a podcast. And we are still going strong, so I haven't pissed them off too much yet. I like for my apartment to look nice. Moreover, I like the things that I use to make my apartment look nice to look nice. When you live in New York City, you get used to living in very small spaces, and it gets

very easy for clutter to make itself very known. And bottles of cleaning supplies laying around everywhere with, frankly, garish, neon tones, kind of an eyesore. At least for me, at least for me. I care a lot about what my home looks like all the time, and I'm a stickler about these things. Blue Land is a line of sustainable home cleaning products on a mission to eliminate single-use plastic by reinventing cleaning essentials that are better for you and the planet. And they look really great, which I know is not really the point. But they do. All you do with Blue Land is buy one of their forever bottles. Beautifully and functionally designed. You fill it with water and you pop in a tablet of whatever cleaning solution

you bought, whether that's mirror cleaner, multi-purpose cleaner, hand soap, you name it, and you're set. And when you run out of your cleaning solution, all you have to do is pop in a refill tablet, fill the bottle back up with water, and you're ready to go again. And those refill tablets start for as low as $2.25. So not only better on the planet, but easier on your wallet. If you'd like to try Blueland, you can head over to blueland.com slash fruity for 15% off your first order. that is blu land.com slash fruity. Thanks so much to Blueland, as always. And now let's get back to the episode.

You know what? I'm going to say this. I'm going to be cunty. Jordan Peterson, thank you for making me famous. That was good. Yeah. That was really good.

I bet you didn't expect that turn of events, bitch. Fucking lobster, bitch. Stop trying to fuck the lobsters. They're not interesting. They're not. That's good. That's good. Just because your face is red does not mean you should fuck something that is red.

She's got jokes. Yeah. She's got reeds. Back to... He looks like his parents got fucked by a lobster. This is a Jordan Peterson roast. Tell me what else. The floor is yours.

You know, it makes sense that he's obsessed with hierarchies. Because I bet in bed he likes to be at the bottom of one. Oh. Yeah. I'm calling him a Simizoo. No, I know. That was good. I'm going to get fucking canceled.

I mean, everyone listening to this podcast, here's a fun activity. If you're listening to this podcast right now on Spotify, where there's now a comment section or YouTube. Spotify has a comment section? Yeah.

Give us your... I feel like that's a horrible idea. Probably, but not for this episode because if you're listening to this, I want you to give us your most creative Jordan B. Peterson lashing. You like Jeff?

I feel like, he's someone who would pretend to like jazz for like the social esteem yeah because he's like i'm a real conservative because like it's like real music yeah yeah yeah yeah like i feel he's one of those people who like secretly listen to like magna the stallion you are 21 years old uh-huh not to do the like you know what i will just say before we started recording vivian called me an elder gay i did not i did not call you an elder gay i said you had like the aura of an elder gay you're not actually an elder gay you're 26. I am 26 but you know who's an elder gay? Jordan beepers out. She's quick. She's quick. She's witty. She's sharp. You know what? I think it's good to be called

an elder like it's going to happen at some point. Every gay talks about this. Like at some point you get called an elder gay. It's a band-aid that needs to be ripped off and I am happy for you to You're 26. I'm 26. You have a while before that band-ed-dick gets rid off though. Well, Okay, so speaking of, you have even longer ahead of you. I'm not a gay man. Well, no, that's not what I mean. I do not have to experience Twitter. No, I want to look like Merrill Street in the divorce product.

Like, that's my goal. As a 21-year-old, I don't want to be like, what's next for you? But you have literally your life out of you. Not to sound like a cliche, but... But whatever I want to do next? I really, really enjoy modeling. Specifically, I've been doing some photography modeling. And I mean, it sounds vague to say, like, I enjoy modeling.

But I do. It's really fun. And I really like how you can get like really creative with like the posing. And I struggle sometimes with like serving the correct amount of face. But it's like something that I've really been working on trying to improve. And I really, really enjoy modeling. And I don't want to sound vain. It doesn't sound vain.

But I'm really fucking good at it. Yeah, you are. We saw the Teen Vogue cover. Oh, honey, y'all haven't seen shit yet. Period. No, because I have some shit that I like, I've seen the photos for. I'm like, oh. Eight.

Aet that out? The lesbians are going to get. The lesbians are going to go. And the gays and the gays are going to go. And the bays and the trans and maybe some heterosexuals. Maybe. That's like kind of. That's like kind of extracurricular though. Yeah, exactly.

We don't really care what they think. Yeah. Sorry. But we care what Mardiomorphises thinks. What were you studying in Japan? I was studying Japanese language. I wanted to be an English teacher or a translator. Do you still see that somewhere in your future or your painting?

I don't know if, obviously I don't think Pham is going to last forever. But like, I'm, I'm going to last forever. But, like, I'm, I'm, using its opportunity to explore different. I don't sound like a fucking pageant point again. I'm using this opportunity to explore different career paths that might not have been open to me otherwise and see what I enjoy, what I don't enjoy. And then obviously I still intend on getting a degree.

If it's in the same thing, we'll see. But like if fame dies down, then I will continue on the path because I love languages. And if it doesn't, I'm going to be just a lot. Professionally Vivian. Yeah, professionally Vivian. But like, this is like something that happens to very few people. And I'm very fortunate to be able to get to experience something like this in this life. So I'm like, I should take advantage of this and see if it's something that I want to take even more advantage of.

Because I really enjoy modeling. And that's something that might not have been open to me otherwise. I mean, probably open but not like sustainable, right? Sure. I actually got off the plane in New York and the first thing someone did was like hand me a little card being like, do you have an agent? Do you have a modeling agent?

I was like, this is correct. And if you are a casting director who happens to be listening to this podcast, hire Vivian. Body is T, you just can't see it right now because I'm draped in black. And the hair and the face. The hair you can see.

You got everything going on. If you work for Pantene and you're listening to this podcast, look at the material. Look at the material. Look at the fucking material. It's organic. This is a big question maybe.

But, you know, obviously the climate for LGBT people and for trans people specifically is, you know, I don't need to tell you what it is because we're all living through it. Hello. And this is kind of corny. But do you have like a message for trans people now that you're out and have this like kind of huge microphone? Just, okay. When Teenvog asked me this basically some exact question, I put a question. Conchard Point. So I didn't realize it was quoting a movie that I had never heard of.

Okay. So to me it's a quote of Contra Voice, which is like, stay strong, sister, to let the bastards get you down, which to me what that means is like, be confident in yourself and who you are. And don't let other people's perception of who you are affect your own perception of who you are because you are valid. And you are that bitch if you want to be that bitch. If you don't want to be that bitch, then you don't have to be that bitch. Then you don't have to be.

Yeah. Yeah. But like, don't let other people's perceptions of you affect what you think of who you are or affect your own perception of who you are. That's my message. I feel like you have so much authority in telling people to not let the bastards get them down because the bastards have certainly tried to get you down. They did not succeed. Period. Period.

They only contributed to my rise. Period. Now I'm a trans icon according to fake news. They called me a trans icon. Does it feel a little, like, quick to have that title thrust upon you? Yeah, I was 21 years old. That's how I felt when you called me a gay elder. I was like...

I called you the spirit of a gay elder, not that you actually were one. Thank you very much. Well, you're the spirit of a trans icon, so we're even... I hear the spirit of a trans icon. What if... Is that your impression of my voice, my squeaky little voice? No. Your voice is lower than mine.

Yeah. Okay. To wrap it up, I have a couple of pop culture questions. Oh, shoot. Okay. Are you ready? Yes, absolutely. Are you, do you listen to pop music?

Yeah. What is your favorite album out recently? I don't know jazz shit about album. You know how Beyonce was like, artists don't release albums anymore? I never paid attention to, I am part of the problem because I never actually paid attention to what was on what album. Okay, fair enough. What music are you listening to?

A lot of K-pop and a lot of like pop-hop. Have you been following the Black Pink solo releases? Oh, girl. I love Jenny. You should not say that on camera right now. Do you know the scandal? No. She said the N-word.

There's a video of Black Pink saying the N-W-W. All three of them, except for G-Su. I love J-Su. She's my favorite from Black Pink. You're done. She actually was my favorite from Black Pink, so that hasn't changed. Well, and she did release a really good single Earthquake that I was listening to. I haven't heard that one.

I love Flower. Flower is my favorite. I don't know the basic bitch. Flower is my favorite song. Okay. Speaking of pop music, thoughts on Katie. Perry going to space. Okay.

Some of this podcast has been heavy. I want to lighten it up a little bit. My thoughts on Katie Perry going to space. It's, you know, it's a woman's world, right? Mm-hmm. And it kept spinning regardless as to whether or not she was on it for five minutes. Mm-hmm. And then she came back.

Yeah. Unfortunately. That's fucking brutal. Katie Perry is like a, and I don't say this with spite, but she's a deeply like millennial figure. Oh, the most. She's like, you know, it's very, um... You know what I was little?

Like, I just did a thing. I thought Rora came out in 1999. I didn't realize that's funny Thursday. Okay, now you're making me feel like a gay elder. You're like five years older and we calmed down. Yeah, but... We're actually born in 1999. I was born in 1998.

I was born in 2004. You thought Rora came out in 1999. Yeah. You are a big... You are the big drag race fan. I am a encyclopedia of Drag Race knowledge. In fact, Vivian and I have hung out three times this weekend. Literally, completely

by accident. I didn't even know I was doing this. I was like, I came to New York. We were both at the same function. And then we were both at the Drag Race. All-Stars 10. Premier party. Yeah. And now we're here. So this is the third time. This is just like fate keeps pushing us into a room together.

You could only avoid me for so long. I think it's vice versa. I was never, I'm so thrilled. I'm so thrilled. I'm so thrilled. On the day of our recording this, it is the premiere of All-Stars 10? Yes. Who are you rooting for to go all the way?

I have multiple of their numbers. So if I say somewhat in particular, the others are going to be mad. Okay. I don't know if they go that much. But I feel like the politically correct answer for me to say is I am rooting for all my dolls, all the trans representation on the season. Aja, Bosco, Carrie Colby.

There's so much talent on this season. And there's so many just like iconic figures, not only from like drag race itself, but also just like in pop culture and general. especially what they've done, like, outside of the show. Like, Mistress has really exceeded outside of the show. Aja has become such, like, this huge name in Ballroom. And it's just, like, really, it warrants my heart to see our drag race girls killing it. The dolls.

Yeah, the dolls. Mistress is not trans. Mistress is not trans. No. No. Jesus is man. We're transvestigating Mistress Isabelle books on the Bit Pretty podcast. We're fucking done.

Do you see they transvestigated the Pope? The new one? They're transvestigating the Pope? They literally were like, he, I mean. she is a trans man. And I'm like, baby, I want whatever you're smoking. No way.

Yeah. You can't even be the Pope anymore without being transvesticated. People have transvestigated me. And I'm obviously a demurest woman. On the topic of like hate comments that we've received, one of the most memorable ones was my very first TikTok, I did this like kick onto a table because I thought I was like so cunty and I was like failing it.

You go like 20 million views on Twitter. Thank you to whatever conservative posted that on Twitter with my dead name, because you basically made my TikTok career. So we stay winning. Regardless. It was like kicking my leg up onto the table being like, I'm not just a bitch. I'm a bitch with a backstory.

And someone froze the frame where my leg was the highest in the air and then circled a line of fabric that they thought was my dick. And said, I found it. What the fuck? Yeah. What the fuck? Yeah. In red too.

It was very YouTuber. Jesus Christ. Yeah. I'm so sorry that I'm sorry that I. happened to you it. It was so funny. You laugh it off. I don't give fuck. Yeah. I thought it was so funny. That is fucking crazy. And people are psychopaths. It wasn't my dick. I mean, they thought my dick was like enormous. Like that they just, like, because I don't think they realized how tall I was. They, the thing in the red circle, that was like a line of fabric. The thing was like 12 inches.

It's crazy. No. People are fucking crazy. Yeah. Can I end on sort of a cheesy pageant question? Yes. Given everything, personally, politically, nationally, what is something that's giving you hope and joy right now? The symbol. Fuck off. What's giving me joy is because I am a trans icon. And when I am crowned a trans icon, I will find art for world peace. Okay. I just stop just referencing all the brain rot that this podcast has given me. What's something that's giving me energy?

Something's giving me life is drag. I love drag. I love drag. We do love drag. Yeah. I'm going back to LA and I'm going to make it my mission to see as many drag shows as possible. Vivian Jenner Wilson, thank you for being here on the A Bitforddy podcast. Thank you for having me on the A Bitfutty podcast.

Before we go, where can people find you and where can people hire you? I'm distracted by the fact that you're opposing like a flamingo. Okay. You know what? You sit in these chairs for long enough and it gets weird. No, it's very, like, I heard every bone crack. Where can be it? It was deafening.

I heard every single thing in your knee just pop. It sounded like a fucking crunch bar. Like those chocolate things with like the rice crispy's inside. Sure. Like when you crunched down on one? Yeah, yeah. That's what it was giving. Thank you.

You're welcome. Where can people find you? My TikTok is Vivalrous. My Instagram is also Vivalentus. And it's like the word villainous, but with a VIV at the front, because I'm very clever. Do you want to give like a pageant goodbye to the camera? Honorary judges and members of the esteemed panel. This is Vivian Wilson hailing from the Golden State of California.

Thank you so much for your time. That was really fucking impressive. Yeah. It only should be like eight tries. And that was my morning conversation with Vivian Jenna Wilson. It is a hard time. to be a 21-year-old girl. It is a hard time to be transgender.

It is, I imagine, a hard time to have that person be your father. And it was just a real joy getting to know Vivian as Vivian, not as a pawn in a culture war or a conversation that is about so much more than her, but just as her, a 21-year-old person. I hope you enjoyed getting to sit down with her as much as I did. I hope you don't mind that this week we took a break from all of the, you know, hardcore internet analysis deep dives to just talk to someone who so often gets spoken for, especially by people who don't have her best interest at heart, and just give her the mic to speak for herself. I love you so much. Thanks for listening today. And until next time, stay fruity.