A Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein - The Mel Robbins Griftpocalypse (with Princess Weekes + Kat Tenbarge)

Episode Date: June 12, 2026

Mel Robbins wants to Let You give her your money. The lawyer-turned-self-help guru has made an unfathomable fortune through books, speeches, and most recently, protein smoothies. Mel’s core message to her millions of fans is simple: the only thing standing in your way is you. But as the systems that govern us continue to stratify people across seemingly unmovable barriers of wealth and power, Mel’s advice feels at odds with reality. Additionally, Mel’s insatiable quest for building personal wealth requires us to ask brave questions: Can AI be girlboss? Can pyramid schemes be empowering? Perhaps, if we let them. Listen to bonus episodes on Patreon! Thanks to today’s sponsors! Work smarter, not harder, with Factor meals ready in two minutes at https://www.factormeals.com/fruity50off Get 15% off a cuter, more sustainable way to clean at https://www.blueland.com/fruity Watch Princess on YouTube. Follow Princess on Bluesky. Read Kat’s work. Follow Kat on Bluesky. Find me on Instagram. Find A Bit Fruity on Instagram. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

While I was doing my makeup for this episode, I was watching another Mel Robbins YouTube video because that's all I've done this week. And the video was called Eight Things to Tell Yourself Every Morning. And the first one was tell yourself that today is going to be a great day. The only thing keeping you from waking up tomorrow and feeling incredible is eight things to tell yourself in the morning. The first one, is you need to tell yourself, today is going to be a great day. And I was like, and that's not like bad advice, but that's literally the line from dear Evan Hansen.

Like, dear Mel Robbins, today is going to be a great day and here's why. Exactly. Anyway, let's start with a joke. What did Marie Antoinette say when she heard the people were starving? Let them eat cake. Amen. Let them. Just let them.

Oh, hello. And welcome back to A BitFruity. I'm Matt Bernstein. I'm so happy that you're here. When I was in 10th grade, around 2015, I was taking a chemistry class, and I hated it. I was so bad at it, you know, memorizing the periodic table, the different formulas, moles, avogadro's number. I was so bad at it. I never wanted to do it.

I wasn't good at it. There's a reason I'd do a podcast now. but I had one friend in that class named Kayla, and we would hold each other accountable for studying, for getting our work done. And one day when I was texting her complaining about homework, she sent me a link to this TED talk. It was called How to Stop Screwing Yourself Over,

and it was by a woman named Mel Robbins. My name is Mel Robbins, and for the last 17 years, I have done nothing. but help people get everything that they want. It was pretty standard, like pick yourself up by your bootstraps advice, you know, the only person standing in your way is you, that sort of thing. So why don't you have what you want? When you have all the information that you need, you have the contacts that you need,

there are probably free tools online that allow you to start a business or join a group or do whatever the heck you want. All day long, you have ideas that could change your life. that could change the world, that could change the way that you feel. And what do you do with them? Nothing. Your parents make you do the things you don't feel like doing. Because you won't.

Ever. Then when you get good at something, you'll figure out something else you don't want to do. And then you'll plateau out and you'll get bored and I hate this job. It's boring. But will you look for new? No. You'll just pitch about that one. Your problem isn't ideas.

Your problem is you don't act on them. You kill them. It's not my fault. It's not anybody's fault. You're doing it to yourself. But her delivery was so convincing that it really did get me to do my chemistry homework. It was great advice. I watched this TED talk over and over and over again to the point where Kayla and I, when we'd see each other in the hallways, we would quote it to each other in the male Robin's voice. You're not fine. You're fine. You don't want to do it. You got to make yourself do it, but you don't want to do it. Anyway, that class came and went, and I kind of forgot about Mel Robbins, while over the last

decade and a half, she became the face of the unlicensed life coaching industry and one of the most popular self-help influencers in the world. Mel Robbins has over 12 million Instagram followers, 6 million Facebook followers, 5 million YouTube subscribers, she's written multiple best-selling books, but as someone who doesn't engage with this kind of content anymore, that all kind of passed me by. That was until about a month ago when I saw the following headline. Mel Robbins' response to backlash after telling women to upload all their financial documents to Microsoft co-pilot. Okay. Groundbreaking.

Sounds good. Sounds good. Sounds good. So anyway, I set out to learn everything I could about the woman who once helped me do my chemistry homework. And today, I'm going to share with you what I learned and why I fully believe that Mel Robbins would sell you crystal meth if she could brand it as a product that would help you focus and if the payout was good enough. It's kind of where my thesis comes down. And to do that, today I'm so excited to be joined by longtime friend of the show, Kat Tenet. Barge, writer of Spitfire News. Kat, welcome back to the show. Thanks for having me. And by the YouTube political, pop culture, feminist analysis queen, dare I say, princess, Princess Weeks, welcome to the podcast.

Thank you so much, long, long-term fan, so I'm so excited to be here. And this rabbit hole has been, mwaz, fabulous. As a procrastinator, I felt validated and called out an equal measure. The three of us have spent the last couple of days. days texting just like nonstop about Mel Robbins in full disclosure. So I do feel like our loins are girded. I can't stop saying let them. Incredible. I was I was just telling you guys this, but like my boyfriend called me this morning. He was driving to work and he was like, oh, there's so much traffic. And I was like, let them. And he was like, what does that mean?

And I was like, just let them. It's so good. Before we kickstart this whole timeline of Mel Robbins, and my God, there is a lot to get to. Do either of you have sort of top line thoughts about Mel, what you know about her, what you don't, self-help influencers or the coaching industry? I mean, give me your thoughts. Self-help books are already like one of my like seven rings of hell if I was on Dante's infernal journey. Because while there is some good stuff to be like gathered from like bits and bobs, one, most of them should only be 100 pages. Like it's like, the way they were dragging in anecdotes and uncles and family, I don't care. 100 pages tops.

It could be a really thoughtful substack. But I also feel like in this online space where we have like a total collapse of like actual expertise, it's sort of like this ever like fulfilling prophecy of people trying to find like the latest prettiest way to rebuttal like confidence and trying to find someone to make it accessible. and make that you can just do every single day. And the reality is, like, life is exhausting. Life is hard. And sometimes all you are is fine. This sort of like pseudo like get up and go thing. We do it every couple of years and every couple of years.

We're like, but did it really help? So I'm really curious to see how she sort of illustrates this entire journey. My initial thought about all of this and I'm excited to get into it is I feel like this advice really only works if you're already rich and successful slash have access to the tools you need to be rich and successful. Because like so much of the top line advice just is incompatible with 80% of the human population and like the lived experiences of average people. So let it.

Let them cook. Let them cook with their advice that's incompatible with reality. Let them and let you decide what you're going to do next, which is listen to this podcast. Let's get into Mel Robbins' early life. So where does this all begin? Melanie Lee Schneeberger was born in 1968, Kansas City, Missouri, but they moved to Michigan as a child. I think you can tell she's a very strong Michigan accent, which I find quite charming. Mel Robbins's father is an osteopathic surgeon.

My understanding is that like when she was a small child, was still in school to become an osteopathic surgeon. And at that point, like, they were in debt. She talks about how her parents were in their late 30s when they paid off their student loans, which now is like, I feel like if you pay off your student loans by your late 30s, it's like normal, if not ahead of the curve. But anyway, by the time she was an older child, like they had a good amount of money, which is interesting because a few years ago, she posted, you know, an Instagram,

about how you don't have to come from much to get a lot. And the caption was, I didn't come from much, but my parents taught me how to make much of what we did have. My grandparents were farmers, bakers, and coal miners. My parents met as college students in the middle of Kansas when my mom was 18.

She dropped out to marry my dad, bad decision, just in general. And raised me and my brother. Yeah, don't drop out of college to get married, is my takeaway from that. Let her. I don't remember them complaining, but I do remember them celebrating when they finally paid off all the student loans in their late 30s.

52 years later, they're still together and have created a beautiful life. They were definitely complaining. I guess, I don't know, this line I didn't come from much. I guess, like, anyone could say that. It just depends where you start the timeline. Like, you know, like, I grew up. My parents were working upper middle class, but, like, my great grandparents fled Poland for religious persecution. so like I didn't come from much if we start with them.

Yeah. And it's all relative too because what is it to like not come from much in certain parts of the country is like a totally different experience. Like my mother was like a sole breadwinner even though we were in a two-parent household. We lived in Brooklyn and she made like what money would be like definitely upper middle class somewhere else. But in New York it's just not the same thing. So like anyone can create a narrative of which they were living that strong. struggle life if they really know how to manipulate the books. A hundred percent.

Mel Robbins graduated from Dartmouth. She got her JD at Boston College. Then she moved to New York where she was working as a public defender, which is where she met her husband, Christopher Robbins. Christopher Robbins. Isn't that like a carrot, like a... Winnie the Pooh. Our age gap is showing.

We're like, we're like... The 100 acre one. No, I just forgot his name. Okay, he's the boy from Winnie the Pooh. Well, anyway, that's who she married. They got married in the mid-90s. Their wedding was profiled in the New York Times. I want to shout out the Not the Good Girl YouTube channel

and the video that she made about Mel Robbins because that is how I found out about this New York Times wedding profile. And then I went and read the New York Times wedding profile, which first of all describes Mel and Christopher as having met at a, quote, black tie event at the puck building. Naturally. Also, quote, The couple were married at the Bride's family home,

a large gray clapboard house on Bear Lake in North Muskegon, Michigan, near Grand Rapids. The wedding was performed on the tennis court by the Reverend Glenn Wagner, a United Methodist minister. So they have a tennis court. So they have a tennis court. That was like one of the whitest sentences I've ever.

I was like, large gray clapboard house. I was just like, yep. I'm happy that her childhood home had a tennis court for her to then get married on. But why can't all of these people just be honest about it? I make these episodes every week. Last week was about Kevin O'Leary, who I feel in many ways is like cut from the same spiritual cloth as Mel Robbins. And he also is like, my mother was just chipping away.

His mother gave him $10,000 to start his business. Mel Robbins didn't come from much, but got married. on a tennis court. I don't want to get caught up in every detail because I have 20 pages of notes here. But why can't we just be honest? I feel like this is such a common mythology for people who are extremely successful, like trigger warning Taylor Swift. But like she does the same thing where it's like in a lot of her lyricism, which like sure, it's not one to one autobiographical or supposed to be. But it's just this constant like self-reinforcing mythology of like I struggled in life to get here. Like, I deserve this because I put in the work.

And I think that is so crucial to what a lot of these people are doing. Because it basically is just like the justification for having an enormous platform of wealth today. It's like I did do something to deserve this. Otherwise, I guess they fear that it starts to fall apart. And it's that constant appeal to like American individual exceptionalism of like, you can do it here. Like, just like, you know, the Carnegie's. Like you can come here from.

nothing and do whatever. And so it just perpetuates this idea that if you are failing, it's because of you, because if I could beat the system, why can't you beat the system? Yeah. Yeah. By the way, I just want to say, it is very interesting to me that she was initially a public defender. Because when you are a public defender, especially in a place like New York City, you are working on legal cases for people who like can't afford counsel. We're going to take that a little further in a second. But she really does at points in her early have an up close and personal look into systemic injustices that exist in the world, which makes the advice that she gives today all the more interesting and all the more like bullshit, because I'm

like, really? I'm like, you've seen enough of the world, despite all of your privilege, I think you've seen enough to know that you're full of shit. Right. That's my two cents. But anyway, they move to Boston. She transitions out of law and towards self-help and life coaching, which it seems to just have been something she's really always wanted to do. She, in the mid-2000s, hosted a radio show from their home in Boston, which the home had a studio for her to do a radio show in. It was called Make It Happen with Mel Robbins, where guests would call in for advice. In 2007, Mel Robbins was profiled in Boston magazine. In an article titled, Mel Robbins is not the bashful type. The Sherbourne mom turned advice guru has a hot husband, a beautiful house, a deep-pocketed clientele, and a very

healthy opinion of her bad, bad self. Who could blame her for wanting to teach every woman in America how to have a life as perfect as hers? Christ. This is in 2007. This is so far before she's famous anyway. This is also like, this is a woman who knows her audience at the end of of the day. And like the brand that she's curated is one where she can reach every person, but she knows how to reach the people who actually have money. And that article subheading tells the whole story because what she's saying in her personal brand is to reach as many people as possible. But her paying clientele are the ones with the deepest pockets. So it's like a message that sounds universal, but she knows who she's really targeting. And she's been very good at

that. And I want to be careful not to like say like specifically towards Mill Robbins, but I feel like when it comes to these life coaching industries that are made by people who have like no real background in like sociology or psychology, etc. This is a general statement. The line between this and cult is so narrow to me because like Nixium started off as like a life self-help coaching classes that were targeting people with a lot of disposable income and look where that goes. It's this mentality like you're trusting this person with like all of these intimate things because they look like. the part or they sound the part and nothing actually going deeper than that. This article published in Boston Magazine talks about how Mel plans for the coming years to include self-help tomes, audio books, and a syndicated offline talk show, which she, quote, says she'll insist to be filmed in Boston, quote, if Oprah can do it in Chicago, I can do it here.

So she's already, you know, teeing herself up to, like, aspire to be an Oprah-like figure in 2007. Another quote from her, I believe I am a brilliant and gifted guide that I have been given a tremendous intuition. Good for her. What's her star sign? I got to look that up. Libra.

Wait, I'm a Libra. That's okay. No, I do. I love a Libra. Some of my best friends are Libras. But yeah, October 6th. This article goes on to talk about how before she cut back on private appointments

by about 70% to focus on her media pursuits, Robbins, $250 an hour councilees, in parentheses, she now charges 350. Also, I'm adding, this was in 2007, included fellow moms, recent college grads, and executives from companies like Dunkin' Donuts, Fidelity, and Johnson & Johnson. This was just basically a puff piece that she clearly found someone at Boston Magazine to write about her. And it's sort of, I mean, it's just like a grift all the way because she's like doing this resume about how she's so good, but it's ultimately to get clients who then she can

used as, you know, further testimony about how she's so good at life coaching. She just wanted this really bad. And something Mel Robbins will do later in her career is she'll be like, this all just kind of fell into my lap and my friends noticed how good of an intuition I had and how inspiring I was. And it's like, no, you have been grinding at trying to be a famous self-help influencers since before there were even influencers, since when it was about talk radio. Again, I wish these people could just be honest about that. in 2007 and by 2008, of course, the recession hit, which put her and her husband, Christopher, who was flailing in the restaurant business at this point, into, as she says, financial and marital

disarray. And famously, she says over and over that they fell into $800,000 of debt. Now, I can't say that this is or isn't real, but just I start to take everything these people say with a grain of salt, you know? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Because that is just an insurmountable amount of debt for like people who had good jobs. What happened? Like did you really put all your eggs in the in restauranting and self-help? Y'all are adults. This is what season three of Euphoria should have been about. Instead of Nate Jacobs getting his limbs cut off because he was like deeply in debt, it should have been about how Cassie becomes a self-help author to dig them out of debt. Anyway, amidst the recession, Mel and her husband are really struggling. And it was out of the ashes of their

struggle that the phoenix rose up the phoenix of course being the five second rule are you guys familiar with the five second rule i am now i feel like by just me saying the title you know what it is but it's essentially like the second that you have a thought that you need to get something done you count down from five five four three two one you give yourself the five seconds to like basically launch yourself into doing the thing she compares it to a rocket ship and she says says she was watching a documentary about a rocket ship, and she watched them count down from five. And she was like, wow, I could do the same thing

to get myself out of bed in the morning. I woke up on a snowy day with $800,000 in debt. The alarm rang. I immediately thought I got to get out of bed. I was inspired to count backwards 5, 4, 3,21, because I had seen a rocket ship launch the night before while I was drinking bourbon in front of the TV. And that first morning, 5,4, 321,

that I got out of bed when that alarm rang. It felt like a victory. For the next three years, all I did was count five, four, three, two, and one action at a time, my life changed. So this is what she says got her out of $800,000 of debt, sort of fixed her marital issues amidst the 2008 recession. I read a lot of Let Them. I've clipped passages from Let Them for us to read throughout the episode. And so in the following passage, she's talking about how the five-second role changed her life. Using 5-4-3-2-1, I pushed through the excuses, the anxiety, the overwhelm, and the fear.

And step-by-step, day by day, week by week, I slowly took the actions that put my life and career back on track. My husband started using it to push himself to face the issues in his business head-on, and it worked for him too. But it would be another three years before I told anyone else about the five-year. second rule. How selfish. I had been reluctant to share it with anyone because first, I didn't know why it worked. And second, I didn't feel like I was in a position to give anybody advice. I pasted this here because first of all, just that last part of I didn't feel like I was in a position to give anybody advice. At the point in which she claims to have developed the five second rule, she already had a radio show out of her home in Boston about giving people.

advice. So again, she kind of just like wiggles around in this narrative of like, I was just a humble small town girl and I didn't realize I had invented sliced bread. It's like you've just, you've always wanted to do this. Just be honest. You've always wanted to do this. Also like the five second rule did not make her $800,000. Branding the five second rule and then selling the five second rule to other people is what made her $800,000 and then millions and millions and of dollars because like on its own I don't think that this is a bad thing like I do there's an obvious psychological value in like sort of just like motivating like being like I'm going to do this thing in five seconds like it's a good tool in that sense but it's not a get rich quick scheme or a

fix your marriage scheme or make your life so much better transformational scheme it was only that for her because she figured out how to sell it and I just want to say like from what you have shared with us and just doing a little bit of other research. Like, it's clear that she's already a very self-disciplined person. Like, if you're going to Dartmouth, very competitive school to get into, and you get your JD at Boston College, and you work as a public defender, and you're in the legal aid society, like, you are already a self-driven, disciplined person going through a rough patch, and then you get to use all of those skills and those privileges to help you get out of it. And I think that's a part of it, too, is like, as someone who takes pro-student,

like every day. It's like I can one, two, three, myself, one, two, three, four, five myself several times. No, no, no, no, no, no. You have to count down. Sorry. I've been doing it wrong the whole time. That's what that's a problem. I've been listening to so many goddamn interviews with this woman, but you can't count up because then she says you could just keep counting up forever by counting down by counting down. By counting down, you get to one and then it's over, which honestly, sometimes she says things and I'm like, damn, that makes sense. You're like bars.

That's the thing. She's also really good at making a sound bite, and that is one of the best skills you can have as someone in this type of position is being really good at breaking things down into chunks like that. Well, and as each of you have pointed out, all of her advice in general, most of it, it's not all bad. It's just also limited to a very specific subset of mostly inconsequential situations. Right.

And as she goes on to write, quote, the stories were amazing. People had used 54321 to push through fear, procrastination, and excuses to change jobs, lose 100 pounds, get sober, launch and sell businesses, improve their health and marriages. The medical and clinical uses blew me away. Doctors and psychologists were using it to treat PTSD, OCD, and depression. I think this is irresponsible. Like especially the use of the word clinical is really interesting because that has like a really specific definition. And I don't think that she didn't reinvent the wheel with the five second rule. I don't even think she's the first person to come up with this.

She just like has again like branded it very successfully around herself. Like she's turned it into a personal brand. I'm sure that doctors and therapists do advise people to do stuff like this, but not because. of Mel Robbins, it's just like a psychological fact that I think has existed since before she was even born. And that's where the clinical usage of it comes from, I suspect. Yeah, like counting is a common thing or repeating certain terms. Like, these are such common. And just taking breaths. Like I can just imagine like breathing in between doing, you the right way, five, four, three, two, one would be soothing and relaxing. But again, I think, as we said before, like this whole idea,

like lose weight and get sober and launch and sell businesses, it then takes all of that. Like if you aren't having those results that you're doing it wrong. Right. Exactly. It's your fault. And listen, I've read the comments on those videos and some people, maybe even you, say that this has helped them a lot. And if it's helped you a lot, if it's made getting out of bed easier, literally more power

to you. But all of the advice that she gives in all of her books are just different versions of the like you are responsible for every good thing that happens to you and therefore you are also responsible for every bad thing that happens to you. Groundbreaking. It's just not a framework that's like rooted in like reality or like acknowledging the way that the world works. It's just you, you, you, you, you.

The first time that she talks about the five second rule publicly or as she says, did public speaking in general was when her friend asked her to speak at a career conference in San Francisco. She went. She says that she completely blacked out on stage, but that the speech was filmed, posted online, and yes, became one of the most watched TED Talks of all time. So one more thing that you can use. I call it the five second rule. If you have one of those little impulses that are pulling you, if you don't marry it with an action within five second, you pull the emergency break and kill the idea. Kill it. It has currently around 35 million views, which is almost as much as, you guessed it, by sister, before it was deleted. Like I said, I loved this TED Talk in high school, and it helped me get my homework done. But there's a big difference between, like, something that helps you get your homework done and something that helps you, like, leap over the hurdles of structural inequality. and Mel Robbins seems to think that her advice applies equally to all of the above.

I feel like what she does really well in this video is first of all, like in this TED talk, it's super, super engaging, both for the audience who was physically there in the room with her and for you as the viewer. But the majority of what makes it so engaging is not even advice. It's more so like just being a good entertainer, like having showmanship and knowing how to connect with an audience. It's the same thing that, like, again, like a magician could do a really good job at this. A comedian could do like a really good job at this. Like the actual advice when you boil it down is super, super non-descriptive. And it doesn't really meaningfully change anything. But I feel like she's also really good for temporary bursts of motivation. And like if I was procrastinating on writing

something and I watched this video, I already feel bad. I already know I need to do something. If this woman is just like, you can do it. Like, yes, of course there is a temporary benefit to that, but it will not meaningfully change the direction of your life. Talks about the five second rule in the TED Talk. The TED Talk goes super, super viral. And in the following March, Mel publishes her first book, Stop Saying You're Fine, the No BS Guide to Getting What You Want. Stop Saying You're Fine is, of course, one of the viral phrases that she had in that TED talk. In fact, all of her books are basically the product of viral posts that she's made, which I understand in the self-help industry is probably like how it works. It's like you get a really viral post. And then book publishers are like,

do you think you can turn this post into a 300-page book? The problem generally, though, is that, as you said, Princess, there's just not enough meat on the bone to fill 300 pages. Yeah. And then to do the workbooks and then to do all the extended edition, it's like, like, no be a guide girl, guide for girlies, you know what I mean? Like it has to become an empire. It can't just be like a step in like the pathway of like, you can't afford to have a full time therapist who would ideally talk you through each of these steps. So instead I'm going to have to sell you every single one of these books to do the exact same thing, except that what a therapist does is actually work with your own

limitations, which I think these systems are trying so hard to fit into it that it doesn't take into account. Like, you know, these things could benefit you if you were working one-on-one with somebody who could hold you accountable in your day-to-day life. This can, as you said, can only give you like a temporary burst that adds shame if it doesn't go forward. Yeah, I mean, like, even if you break down, like the things that she talks about as stuff you can use her tools to address, like even if you break it down and just look at one of them, like losing weight, It's like you cannot, there is no one size fits all prescription for losing weight. And this does not take into consideration any of the systemic structural factors that make it

difficult for people to stop gaining weight or to lose weight. Like it's not actually useful once you bring in many of the real life factors that people are going through. Also, one thing from this TED talk that I forgot to mention, during it she puts up pictures of her like family. Like there are pictures of like her kids. and she's using them as like a cutesy way to illustrate. Like sometimes your kids will like get into the pantry when you have people coming over

later. The pantry, like her house that you can see from these images, she she has like a walk-in kitchen pantry. Like I was like, you're already rich. You live in an extremely nice home. Like I was just super gagged by that and the little like discrete ways of some showing that you are in fact already quite wealthy. Trust me, I have money.

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become a full-time self-help influencer right away. What she does in the early 2010s before her career really takes off is work as a CNN legal analyst with an increasing amount of paid motivational speaking work on the side on weekends. She became best known on CNN for covering the trial of George Zimmerman, who's, if you need your memory jogged, the man who murdered Trayvon Martin in unarmed 17-year-old black boy. And she was on CNN. Like there's compilations of this on YouTube. She's on CNN, like, doing her like Mel Robbinsisms, but like for legal analysis of George Zimmerman's trial, which he was eventually acquitted. The criminal defense attorney and HLN contributor. Mel, you were there again. Another compelling day. My sense was watching it all

that the pendulum was moving a little bit more towards the defense case today. 100%. I mean, as you just heard everybody else talk about, John Goode was a fantastic witness for the defense. Mel Robbins. HLN contributor. Contributor. Criminal defense attorney radio talk show host, Mel. Okay, you've had 17 months. We've seen over 50 witnesses. You got a dead 17-year-old here, and this is what your closing argument looks like.

Horrible. As a juror, as a spectator, I don't know what the prosecution's theory of the case is other than George Zimmerman lied, but we don't really know what happened now, do we? Well, I'd strike him for a totally different reason. I'd strike them because in it... This was really depressing and disturbing to watch.

Yeah, it was very uncomfortable to watch. Yeah, there are certain realms, especially because she has the background of being in public justice, in New York City, who has had to see so much institutionalized violence. It's just like, it just felt very tacky. The way that she provided legal analysis on this case was to say, like, oh, the defense attorneys are doing a really good job here and the prosecution is not doing a very good job here. Like, that's the type of analysis and commentary she's providing. there's a place and a purpose for that. But what really grinds my gears about this style of legal commentary, which is what makes up the vast majority of on-air commentary as well as YouTube commentary and stuff, the system is problematic.

The system like reinforces injustices. The system itself is worth talking about not just like, oh, is the defense attorney doing a good job, but also like if the defense attorney is doing a good job, what does that say? about the reality of how our justice system is failing. And so seeing her just kind of like sit there and like talk about it so like blithely and how like great the defense attorneys are doing, I'm just like it leaves a really bad taste in my mouth and it's upsetting. This child is dead. And we're all like you guys are all just kind of like sitting here and talking about it like it's a game of golf where the person who killed him is like ultimately going to win. And that is what basically happened because he got acquitted.

No, I mean, that's right. And I just think what I want people to know about Mel Robbins is that she has always wanted to be a famous television personality. And that's fine. But she's not forthright about it. And, you know, I think if she could have become more famous as like an on-air legal analyst, I think she would have loved being like a Nancy Grace. She just wasn't making that big of a name for herself covering this stuff on CNN. And then she found another way to do it. But again, I just come back to like when I.

watch the hours and hours and read the books and read everything of what she's doing now, and it's like this empty advice that is completely detached from like structural inequality that exists in the real world, I know that because of her past, she has experienced that real world, not herself, but through her clients as a public defender, through covering the George Zimmerman trial up close and personal. And so I just know that she's full of shit. It's, it's whatever. Does that makes sense. Yeah, absolutely. And like these on-air analyst jobs are already very lucrative for a lot of people. Not everyone like gets paid to go on CNN and be in talking head, but oftentimes people in these types of roles especially do have very lucrative contracts. And it's like you look at the world of legal commentary. You saw this with like the Depp Heard trial as a great example. You have these like former defense attorneys, former district attorneys, former like all of these people who have really significant real. legal backgrounds making millions of dollars and their stated goal is to like educate the public.

But what they're actually doing is just feeding into people's preexisting biases and ensuring that the system continues to operate in this way. The only person who really benefits from it is the person providing the commentary because they can make a lot of money doing it. It's also striking to me that she goes from like lucrative on-air work as well as very lucrative individual coaching. But she's, She sees that the place where you can make the most money and have the biggest impact is through self-help books. And I think that is kind of like staggering. That's right. And Mel describes her shift completely away from law and legal analysis and towards self-help. Thanks to the success of her TED talk. She writes, once I started getting paid, I put every dollar towards chipping away

at our debt. That first year, I gave 17 paid speeches, Jesus. The next year, the next year it was 47 and I was able to quit my day job. I couldn't believe that was happening. By the third year, I was doing 99 speeches plus a 24 city tour with J.P. Morgan Chase. I had become the most booked female speaker in the world. I was being hired by companies I admired. How did this happen? By forcing myself out of bed on those things I didn't feel. like it. Right, right, right. Learning to how to push yourself to take action when you are afraid or full of self-doubt

or overwhelmed with excuses is a life skill you can learn. Once you master it, you'll understand that you can achieve anything through small, consistent moves forward, just like Pilates. I don't want to be one of these people who's like, you actually can't do anything. And like you shouldn't get out of bed. like you or whatever. But there has to be something in between that and Mel Robbins saying that she became the most booked female speaker in the world within three years because she was getting out of

bed in the morning. We're literally charting the path of how she actually got there, which is that she had connections that 99.999% of people do not have. She met her husband at a Black Thai Manhattan event. She is an on-air CNN legal correspondent. These are not just things that you get handed to you. These are not just like opportunities that are waiting for you. You can basically only do this stuff if you are already operating within this like

echelon of society where you're constantly meeting CNN bookers and people who book motivational speakers for J.P. Morgan Chase. Yeah, they need the motivation for sure. But have you thought about getting out of bed 30 minutes earlier, Kat? Maybe I will. Maybe I will. Don't you want to go on a 24 city speaking tour with J.P. Morgan Chase and other companies you admire? Only with a daily stop at the Capital One Cafe to fuel up for my early morning.

That nitro. Yeah. It's one of the things, too, is someone who I do over procrastination problem. So there's a lot of this stuff that is accessible. And again, the place where it stops being relatable is sort of like, I am an adult. So I know that the connection between A and B is not really there. And it's frustrating to see the lack of transparency in that regard. And I think it's just so tied to explicitly, like, the women's self-help space is so oriented around making it seem effortless. By making it seem effortless and classy and elegant, like these small, consistent moves forward, it's like a way of still maintaining a sense of, I would say, femininity while progressing. Like, you're never sweating.

You're just doing small, consistent. assemblements. That is a really interesting insight. I'm just hearing so much Pilates talk to, even though I do Pilates, but it's all of these things in which, like, what we're talking about,

kind of like, the trad wife influencer thing, it is also root in this idea of, like, you know, taking these big spaces for yourself and really being self-focused. And it's just like, to go from having 17 paid speeches,

most people don't get paid to give speeches. Most people don't get paid for any of that labor. So even the fact that you were notable enough that those were paid gigs is already like above most people. And she can't acknowledge any amount of privilege in any of her works like anywhere. She can't acknowledge any of it because it would just undercut the basis of her advice. On her credibility in giving people life advice, which you might be wondering about, she writes,

When people would ask if I had a PhD or if I was a therapist, I would say, no, I learned everything the hard way by screwing up my own life and then having to fix it. I didn't achieve success or financial freedom because of some secret. I did it because I was willing to do what most people won't. I woke up every day. And regardless of how I felt, I kept slowly chipping away at my goals for over a decade, a painstakingly slope. process. Some days, all I focused on was just trying to be a little better than I was the day before. Often, that's all you need to do. I am not special or different or gifted or lucky. I just found the tools that worked for me and I used them. Today, my entire career and life's purpose is sharing those tools with you. Fun fact, most people don't wake up every day. I didn't know that. I didn't know that. I was like, what's something new every fucking day? Like, Well, people don't wake up every day as like regards of how they feel.

I'm like, I think literally everyone does that. I also just want to give a shout out to actual psychotherapists, social workers, people who do have PhDs, because I know that Mel Robbins is a sore spot for many of them. Many of them messaged me when I posted about planning this episode. When she writes, when people would ask if I had a PhD or if I was a therapist, I would say, no, I learned everything the hard way. unfortunately, that's not actually a credential. Nope.

It's really aggravating. And this was a conversation on TikTok. And it's like, you are an expert in your own experiences. And even in that, you are not a reliable narrator for yourself. But the point is that credentials do matter when you are trying to sell things to other people, when you are presenting yourself as an authority and not even having the sense to be like, I am special. I am different.

I am lucky. I would respect that more. I love a bad bitch behavior. I'd be like, yeah, I'm lucky. I'm special. I had a really good childhood. I have like really stable parents and everything. And because of all of that, I had the word with all to figure out this work. Like to me, that is more relatable than just saying, I woke up like this. You're not Beyonce. It's also very like tripling down on that. It's your fault if you're not successful because she's literally saying like most people won't do what I do. And it's like most people don't. have what you have. Most people didn't grow up on Bear Lake near Grand Rapids, Michigan, which I'll never forget now for some reason. Like I'm like, most people don't have a tennis court in their backyard. It's just very frustrating for her to like sit here and be like, this is how it is.

When we all know it's not. Mel Robbins is now well into her, you know, skyrocketing to stardom. she ends up turning the five second rule into a book, aptly called the five second rule. It's released in 2017. It becomes a bestseller. This is really where she reaches super stardom and fully pivots into full-time self-help influencer mode. One of my main gripes with self-help influencing in general, you are telling everyone else how to live their life. If your advice, was so good and was so profit generating and was so fulfilling on its own, why is your career giving that advice to people, selling that advice to people? If you were taking your own advice, wouldn't I not be hearing from you? Wouldn't you just be like happy and somewhere else

and making money, doing whatever the things you initially set out to do? It's to me, it's just, it's all such a scam. Let them. I mean, let them scam me, fair enough. But, like Mel Robbins, by her own admission, was giving self-help advice on how to live life in 2007 in that radio show from her home. While she says her marriage and career and finances were all flailing, she says like, what position am I in to tell people how to live their life? And by the way, I think that's how we should all feel all the time. None of us are in a position to tell anybody else how to live their life because none of us, none of us actually has that authority. Anyone who says that they have that authority is lying to you, is trying to sell you something, might be trying to sell you six different things, as is the case of Mel Robbins.

And it's just a total grift. And I think it aligns neatly with another grift that Mel Robbins would make a lot of money in, which is multi-level marketing. Oh, my God. Of course. Of course. If you are new to the anti-multi-level marketing space, multi-level marketing companies think like Avon makeup or Rodan in Field's skincare or Amway. I mean, there's a million of them. They claim to be companies where it's just like friends selling skincare products or makeup products, which are all overpriced, to other friends. These companies tend to operate in the wellness and beauty space because they target women who are oftentimes others who don't have time to get, you know, jobs with salaries and health care.

They claim that you can basically sign up, you can sell people in your community, these products, and you can make money from them. But what they don't tell you, up front, at least, is that, first of all, you have to pay for all of your stock, which is not how an ethical business works. And also that the actual money comes from recruiting other people under you, and then you get a cut of all of not only the product that they sell to us. other people, but also the product that they buy from the company to sell to other people. So essentially, the people are the product. It's a big multi-level marketing scam.

And I think self-help integrates perfectly into this world because self-help is a multi-level marketing scam. You are telling other people how to live so that they can tell other people how to live so that they can tell other people how to live. And it's, it creates a big pyramid. Mel Robbins and like Jay Shetty are at the top. And everyone's just lying and making it up. Exactly. And it is so frustrating when you see someone get into an MLM, like just kind of happens because there's so much excitement. And I know so many, even young women who like were genuinely trying to find another stream of income, try to use it as like a community organizing tool. And it's like the language of self-help being used to sell this product is so dangerous

because people right now, especially want other sources of income. They want community. They want I feel like they're a part of something and they want to help people. And it all takes advantage of those inclinations. And I think nothing better represents the incompatibility of Mel Robbins' sort of like grind set, pick yourself up by her bootstraps advice, then her collaboration with the multi-level marketing world. She gives talks at a number of like multi-level marketing like conferences for these different companies.

It's great because the way that multi-level marketing companies keep their distributors in, despite the fact that the vast, vast, vast majority of them are actually losing money to the company itself, are they give them these motivational speeches. And it's all about if you aren't selling enough like $40 lipsticks or lotions, it's because you don't want it badly enough. Mind you, these companies and the way that they're set up are structurally impossible. One of the pieces of advice that you will hear, and I've listened to a lot of like MLM content is like, just recruit five people under you every month. and you will end up at the top of the pyramid in no time. First of all, by the time you've heard of this company,

the top of the pyramid has been long solidified. You will forever be at the bottom. But second of all, I did a little number crunching. And if you recruit five people, and those people recruit five people, in a year, the company has about 47 million employees. Jesus Christ, that's one big-ass pyramid. And then within six additional months of that,

you have exceeded the population of the earth. Jesus. So I say all of this to say that like 99% of people don't make any money and it's like 0.1% that makes an actual living wage. It's also such a parasitic concept because it's like if you're recruiting five people every month and you're also supposed to be like a stay-at-home mom who's going to her friends and family, you're basically like the instructions here are to create a cult that you suck every single person you've ever met into. And now all of a sudden you've employed your entire social network. And this really happens because like the common thing that people encounter with MLMs is they're like, why is this girl who I went to high school with 20 years ago,

messaging me relentlessly on Facebook. It's a one-step process to just, like, actually alienate people, driving you further into, like, isolation and loneliness. It's just such an anti-social business model that has reached so much havoc in so many people's lives. But the thing with these multi-level marketing companies is that they need someone like Mel Robbins, who can give advice so confidently that is so incompatible with the real world, but that she has such a good delivery that the people that they are essentially like sucking all of the money from will believe it and stay there. In 2017, while promoting her book, The Five Second Rule, Mel Robbins does an interview with a man named Eric Worry.

Eric Worry is at this point someone that she is friends with from the motivational speaking circuit. He is a sort of celebrity multi-level marketing coach. he just posts videos on Instagram and YouTube telling people the way to succeed in multi-level marketing is just to try harder. Like that's basically what it all boils down to. He is enormously wealthy through books, courses, speaking events. I put an Instagram video link into the outline. I'll put it on the screen if you're watching the video.

It just shows his house. First of all, I think this house is kind of ugly. It reminds me of something I would have built in the Sims when I was like 13. Oh my God. It's so tacky. It's so big. It looks like the entourage house. You know what I mean?

Like it looks like the boys live there. And what's really sad is like if you look at the comments on this video, which I suspect are pretty heavily moderated and they're probably deleting any negative comments. So the ones that are left are like this one is you are both the most incredible people in the world. Leading with servant hearts has rewarded you so well. Such a well-deserved lifestyle with many more years to come. Today is the day. Congratulations on the new book. Can't wait to get a copy. Wow, that's a beautiful home. Well done. It's just people glazing them and believing that they, again, have earned this because of the mythology they've created, which is I struggled to get here. And perhaps more importantly, so can you. And that's so important to the whole thing because this is what taps into that whole American exceptionalism. It's like, this is why we can't have socialism because then when you're a billionaire, do you want to be That's right. And so Mel goes on Eric's podcast. She also, by the way, spoke at his recruiting conference. It's kind of a small world with these people. So let's say that you've got a bunch of people that you want to talk to. You want to recruit. You're excited. You go into the meeting, but they look at you like this. You're like, oh, no, I'm not going to say anything today. They look like they're in a bad mood. I don't think I can do this today. Yes, you can. Five, four, three, two, one.

This is the advice she had for people who are struggling to make money in multi-level marketing pyramid schemes. So the problem is that you have a habit of getting stuck up here. You will never grow your network marketing business by thinking about it. It's not happening. And what I can tell you based on years and years of research, because in trying to figure out why does something 5,4, 3, 2, 1, so simple, creates such profound change at not only a behavioral, but a neurological and a mindset and a habit level for people all over the world. The reason why you're having an issue, if you feel paralyzed or stuck, is because you spend

too much time thinking, and thinking too much itself becomes a habit. Now here's what I want you to understand. The only cure, the only cure for paralysis. The only cure for fear, the only cure for feeling insecure, the only cure for feeling like a loser, like you're going to fail at this thing. The only cure for the hopes and dreams is action. That's it. I genuinely, no shade Mel Robbins, but like, I think you're going to hell. I do. I'm so sorry. I think she's going to hell. That's so crazy to say that. Like, I mean, like, that's just so irresponsible. The reason is

You're not making money in your net, they'll call it network marketing because that's like the safe word that they use instead of pyramid scheme. The reason you're not making money in your Lula R leggings pyramid scheme business is not because you're not trying hard enough. It's not because it's all up here in your brain, but you're not doing. It's because everyone in your neighborhood who wants to work for Lula Rowe is already trying to sell Lula Rowe and you can't all recruit each other because you're all, already in the business, there is structurally zero way for you to get ahead of this problem. But Mel Robbins wants you to think that you're not waking up early enough. Like actually, and here's the last thing. I know I've been talking too much.

Oh my God. No, we love it. I've listened to so many of these like testimonies from women who have been struggling to get by, to put food on the table for their kids. And so they join these quote unquote businesses, which are just scams because they think it's going to help them. And like these people are fucking paying to see Mel Robbins. And this is the, I mean, just a leech. That's the thing. Like, we've crossed the Rubicon from like, you're selling these books and they can't really like fundamentally change anyone's life, but also like it's not

going to hurt someone. But what this is is actually like really predatory. Because another part of the MLM psychology is like people figure out after a couple months that they haven't made any money yet. And that is where they really sink their teeth in because then it becomes like you have to keep buying stock. You have to keep going. You have to keep like losing money before you can make that money. And that is the psychological trap where they're literally praying on people and like conditioning and manipulating them into growing their debt. And that's just so awful to do to people.

Like it's it's quite, quite evil, I would say to do to people. It's so evil. And even just like you're thinking about it too much. girl like i that's what i mean like that that whole hyper like feminine edward like it's progressive it's it's it's economically empowered of you to like just close your brain brain empty okay you got a girl math this shit like you know like just keep spending money's not real you know it's that it's all of that same kind of girly popification of everything serious and it's like flames and she's not just adjacent to the multi-level marketing industry she's in the heart of it in 2021 Mel Robbins

is a featured speaker at Monate's Monations conference. Monate is one of these many MLM companies. It is a hair care and skin care MLM. Because of rules put in place by the FTC, MLMs are required to put out income disclosure statements which show you how much money their distributors make. And after looking at Monates, I can tell you that at Monate,

94% of the company exists at the lowest rank. Jesus. Because the bottom of the pyramid is always the biggest by a lot. And their medium annual income, without factoring in products, which they have to purchase to sell in the first place, was $19. Mm. Jesus. Only 0.16% of the company, or 16 out of every 1,000 distributors,

makes $45,000 to $55,000 a year, which is an almost livable wage for some places in the U.S. And the total percentage of the company that makes more than that is 0.1% or 10 people per thousand. So in total, 26 out of every 1,000 distributors at Monate are making a living wage at this company. And that is not factoring in expenses. Or health insurance, which I definitely don't have. Or the fact that you've now alienated your entire social network by DMing every person on Facebook to buy your terrible products. That's another thing about this specific MLM that is like, I would love to see Mel Robbins

do a daily routine with these skincare, hair care, and makeup products because no one uses this stuff. Not only are they not high quality, there are horror stories of people like using these products on their hair and having like bad outcomes. So it's just like it's such a. scam. If even a part of what she was saying was true, you would think she'd at least be like, and this is a really good lip gloss, right? Because like at the end of the day, you're supposed to be selling beauty products. But that's not even, that doesn't even come into the equation.

It's like, are the products you're selling actually worthwhile? Yeah, 26 out of every 1,000 distributors are making a living wage before expenses. One such expense being these distributor conferences that these companies put on that they charge the distributors to attend, which typically consist of motivational speeches by people like Mel Robbins telling them to work harder to increase their downline to a group of financially struggling women who will statistically not grow their downlines because the bulk of the people like I said who will ever work at the company are already working at the company. This is where Mel Robbins went to give her speech which by the way according to a bunch of different you know public speaking fee websites her fee is between one and three hundred

thousand dollars. Oh my god. Wow. That's insane. I've talked a lot about Mel Robbins sort of avoiding the structural realities of the world that we live in because it's the only thing that she can do for her advice to seem reasonable. But like I said, I've been watching a lot of episodes of her podcast, the Mel Robbins podcast. And a few months ago, she had Barbara Corcoran on, who is the founder of Corcoran Real Estate Group and Shark Tank Investor. we've had a lot of Shark Tank on this podcast recently. In this podcast episode, my ears perked up when Mel addressed bias against women in the workplace.

I was like, okay. Interesting. Okay. Woke a clock. And she asked Barbara Corcoran what she would do to combat it. Now, I'm going to play this video. It is mostly Barbara Corcoran speaking, but I think it really well represents the story that both of these women tell other women.

I'd love to talk a little bit more about your just insights about women and success and being successful. Because there is a lot of pressure. There is bias in the workplace. But you have always seemed to just pick yourself up, shake it off, and plow forward, regardless of what was going on around you. You built one of the most successful real estate businesses in a male-dominated business. how do you want women to think about both the very real things that are against us in terms of the way that business is structured, but the opportunity that that creates and what kind of mindset you need to have? Well, you know, there's always real things against you, but I did it a little differently than most.

I never thought of myself as a woman. Not a single day did I think of myself as a woman. I thought of myself as a competitor, just like a man. I was a competitor and I was going to put you under the table, without a doubt by the time. time I finished. All right. So not having that liability or thinking I was weak or had a disadvantage of some kind or another was an advantage to me. Girl, she basically also just said that to be a woman is like she basically was like, I didn't think of myself as a woman. I didn't think of myself as weak. I'm not one of those weak bitches who complains about gender or whatever. I get up 30 minutes

earlier than the boys so I can get mine, okay? They want to discriminate against me. me, let them. Okay, I've never viewed myself as a woman. Oh my God. Like, that is like Margaret Thatcher levels of like, whatever, girl. Like, let me drink, let me drink my wicked Stanley. I'm so annoying. I didn't think of myself as a woman.

That's going to, my new sleep paralysis demon is her going, I didn't think of myself as a woman. Is there a queer joke in there that we can make? That's what I was thinking. about like some like trans curious thoughts in there non-binary that they were left there like I saw myself as a they then well that's like a turf argument that sometimes turfs will make about trans men is that like they didn't want to deal with structural inequalities that women face so they just became men that's like jk rowling's thing right like jk ralings thing right like jk ralin will always be like if i like if i were born today maybe i would have been a trans men it's like that is not why trans men exist jk just because you have a shitty dad And misogyny does not mean that you deal with any sort of gender identity or anything like that. Like you can also just hate misogyny and be cis. But this Barbara Corcoran advice, which Mel Robbins is obviously co-signing, this is like one degree separated from that. Yeah.

This is just so Mel. Because like I said, it's like the one time where she like tries to bring up almost starts flirting with the idea of bringing up structural reality. Like, well, I just think my way out of it. And then where does race fit into that then? Because it's like, you know, there's no way for me to just be like, I don't see color. You know, I choose not to see myself as a black woman. I'm just like, I just wake up every day. And I'm like, they said the N word, but like, whatever, girl.

It's just, it's so lazy. And again, as someone who was a public defender in New York, in the 90s, you would have intimate knowledge of this. Ridiculous. I guarantee you she faced entrenched sexism that she is choosing right now to deflect from. Because I think part of the real answer as to how she overcame this is what she doesn't want to get into, which is what you just said, Princess, which is like she relied on the privileges that she did have to overcome those things. She relied on her whiteness. She relied on her wealth. She relied on her connections. That is how she was able to like break through glass ceilings. That's not advice that can be

transferred over to anyone else. So they come up with this BS stuff that maybe they theoretically could transfer over to someone else. And you know what? We were talking about this, Emma and I last week with our Kevin O'Leary episode. But I do think we should consider the audience for this kind of content because one of the number one responses I got on Instagram when I posted about making this episode was my mom or my dad, but mostly my mom loves her books, loves Mel Robbins podcast. This is for a certain, I would say, boomer demographic of listeners who, I think, whether they would admit to this or not, are inclined to accept these self-soothing stories about bootstraps. And merit.

It allows them to say, like, oh, like, you know, my kid is bitching and whining about not being able to job or not being able to afford a house. Well, look, Mel Robbins and I, this is how we did it. Like, you're doing everything wrong. you you chose to get a nothing degree. You chose to eat McDonald's. And it's just like, it's just so negative. And I think one of the big things that we're seeing gender wise between these two things is like,

men are encouraged to be boisterous and be bigger through aggression, but women are still being told to do it, but do it in a way that does not disturb the status quo. It's like the men get to shape it. And as a woman, you fit into it and you find a way to. despite it, but did nothing about then how do you change the culture to that make it easier for everybody else? Because you don't think about that. You're just thinking about you. Yeah. Could I pee really fast and then we'll let them? Yes, of course. See you in a minute. I'd like to take a quick break from the show to give a shout out to Blue Land for sponsoring today's

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solution it is that you're going for, whether it's mirror cleaner, multi-purpose cleaner, you name it. And you're all set. And once you get to the bottom of that bottle, you can just refill it with water and pop in a new tablet. And those refill tablets start at just $2.25 a pop. So not only better for the planet, but also better for your wallet. If you would like to try Blue Land today, you can get 15% off your first order at BluLand.com slash fruity. That is blu land.com slash fruity. Thank you so much to Blueland, as always, for sponsoring this show. And now let's get back to the episode. Now, my dear listener, it's time for you to let me let you let them. In May of 2023, Mel Robbins put out a video where she said she had just heard about something

called the let them theory. I just heard about this thing called the let them theory. I freaking love this. If your friends are not inviting you out to brunch this weekend, let them. If the person that you're really attracted to is not interested in a commitment, let them. If your kids do not want to get up and go to that thing with you this week, let them. So much time and energy is wasted on forcing other people to match our expectations. And the truth is, if somebody, especially somebody you're dating or who's a friend or somebody

you're trying to partner with in business, if they are not showing up how you need them to show up, do not try to force them to change. Let them be themselves because they are revealing who they. are to you. Just let them. And then you get to choose what you do next. This is some TikTok bullshit. I know. It's so of like emotional boundaries derogatory. Yes. You don't owe anyone anything. Yeah. It's like it reminds me of like when I was polyamorous advice Facebook words. They were like you are not responsible for anyone else's emotions but your own. If your partner has a problem with you going out, then that's their

thing that they have to unlock no sense of like collectivism at all. It was, it's so weird. It also reminds me of one of my favorite tweets, which is, I don't know, man, sometimes it just depends. Right. Because I'm like, this does not apply to every situation, even the ones she's describing. If all of your friends are planning events without you, maybe that's because your friends suck. But maybe it's because you've done something and your friends are trying to like, maybe they're not being direct with you about it, but maybe you're the problem. And like if you feed this advice to someone who is naturally or intentionally narcissistic, you could easily create a monster. Same thing. I mean, even with the 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, it's like if your goal is to, uh,

punch someone in the face and you 5, 4, 3,2, 1 it, like, that's not necessarily a good outcome either. Yeah. Well, you might be getting ahead of my outline because later on, let's just say she uses the five second rule to justify some pretty insane advice to people. But let's focus on let them. I'm at my most annoying right now. I've had a really, just like, you guys just have to understand. Like, I destroyed my YouTube recommended algorithm forever because of this. Like, just let me, let me be insane.

You have to have a second private channel. that's what I do because I can't let them know. So in the book that Mel would later publish called The Let Them Theory, she claims to have invented the Let Them Theory, whereas by her own admission in this very video, it's something that she just, quote, heard about. I just heard about this thing called the Let Them Theory. I freaking love this.

But we'll get more into who owns the Let Them Theory in a few minutes. In any case, this short video goes very, viral and in December of 2024 she releases the smash hit book the let them theory we've mentioned this a couple times with regard to her other works but I just want to say having read a good chunk of this book this week it's just not it's not a book this theory isn't complicated enough to be a book everything that you need to know about the let them theory you heard her say in that whatever it was 60 second video I want to give a shout out to

my friends Michael and Peter of the If Books Could Kill podcast because they often say this with self-help books. Like it could have just been a blog post. It could have been a TikTok. Yeah. It's so interesting how, especially with TikTok, virality becomes a way of, you know, getting authority or getting accreditation, even though TikTok is probably the easiest thing to get viral on accidentally. So it isn't even a parameter of like, well, it, like in this case, Mel Robbins already had a name, so that already automatically goes into clicks and people engaging. Like, her job is to sell people things. But it's just so bizarre that she got a book deal out of something that she heard from someone else. And it was, and put theory next to it as if that, like,

means something. As Mel describes in the book, the let them theory, which is no longer, according to the book, something that she just heard about, but now something that she created, is, born out of the idea that you can't do the five-second rule for other people. So focus on yourself and let them do them. She writes, the five-second rule changed my relationship with myself. The let-them theory changed my relationship with other people. In the book, Mel says that she came up with the let-them theory before her son's prom night when her son and his friends wanted to go out into the rain to get fast food in their tuxes before the prom. This stressed Mel out and she thought it was a bad idea.

They were going to get their shoes muddy, etc. But her daughter just told Mel to let them. And immediately her brain unclenched. Let them! It's like biblical. Let them. And the sky opened up. Yeah, exactly.

And the sea parted. If Pharaoh had just let them people go. then God said to him. Wouldn't have had no problems. He failed at the let them theory deifically. That's it. That was good. So anyway, I don't know.

I mean, the sun going to get fast food before prom, it's a fair enough example, I think. Like, if your son's suit gets dirty, it's not the end of the world. Maybe he'll learn a lesson in responsibility. It doesn't really have anything to do with, like, your, own behavior. It's not that deep. This advice from her daughter works so well, though, that she begins applying it to everything. She writes, within a week, I could not believe how different I felt. I started saying let them anytime I felt stressed, tens, or frustrated. And funny, I realized it was almost always regarding other people. Let my family be late to absolutely

everything we go to. Let Grandma read the news out loud. Let people hate the photo I just posted online. Let Oakley be mad that I'm not letting him stay out late tonight. Let them lead dishes in the sink. No, girl, that's how you get mice. Let them do construction during the Monday morning commute. You can't control that. What are you going to do? Tech Zoron. We don't all have that information. let my relatives be judgmental of my career let my mother-in-law disagree with my parenting let them be sold out of bagels at the bakery well that's not okay let the neighbor's dog bark all day two simple words let them change everything that's crazy like I was like some of these things are not like the other like first of all they're not allowed to be sold out of bagels we're from New York that's that's unacceptable that's the thing is like sometimes the let them feel like could work out really well. Like something I've seen women on like Reddit say that I agree with is like if your husband doesn't know how to do his own laundry, just like let it get dirty.

Or if your husband like doesn't buy gift like Christmas presents for his side of the family, just like let that happen and like let him face the consequences of those of his inaction. But that does not apply to like every situation. Even some of the ones that she's listed here. Like it's just just nonsensical if you try to apply. to everything. She describes going on Instagram, and like she said in this video, so it's hard to know if this is like theoretical or something that's like actually happened.

But in the book, she says that actually happened. She goes on Instagram and realizes that all of her girlfriends took a weekend vacation without her. Her response? What? Them. Should I read this little excerpt? Please.

At first, those words felt like a rejection, like I was giving in. But then I realized something important. Let them wasn't about giving in. It was about releasing myself from the control I never had in the first place. Because here's the truth. No matter how much I tried to analyze the situation or how many ways I could try to control or fix it, nothing I did would change what had happened. Their choice to go away didn't have to make me feel bad.

But my attempts to control the situation were making me feel horrible. The sad truth is I did this to myself. My friends didn't do anything to me. They were just living their lives. They are allowed to go away. They are allowed to play a weekend with whomever they want. The way I reacted to their trip is what hurt me. Before we comment on this, I just want to add she goes on to describe her philosophy a little further.

Quote, if you're struggling to change your life, achieve your goals, or feel happier, I want you to hear this. The problem isn't you. The problem is the power you unknowled. knowingly give to other people. Here's why the Let Them Theory works. When you stop trying to control things that aren't yours to control, you stop wasting your energy.

You reclaim your time, your peace of mind, and your focus. You realize that your happiness is tied to your actions, not someone else's behavior, opinions, or mood. The truth is, other people hold no real power over you unless you give it to them. Like Eleanor Roosevelt said it's in like two sentences. Like I die, I digest it. I don't know genuinely how she was able to publish this. This is just like the opposite of brand new information.

Like this is just so repetitive. It's not even bad advice because you should be careful about like giving too much of your energy away to other people. But the way she packages it is just there's just something so artificial and disingenuous about it that just kind of like it just makes the whole thing very both annoying and gross. at the same time. I think it's like kind of bad advice though. I mean, not in every situation, obviously. Yeah. Like you're right.

I mean, there is like, of course, the self-care element. I think this can be bad in two directions. One, being what we were saying is it's like, this can very quickly, I think, led itself to like narcissistic personality disorder where it's like, if someone's mad at you for something that you did, let them, you know? You can't control how they react. But then in the other direction, which I think comes out in this. passage specifically is it's like if something bad happens to you or you are up against some

sort of structural inequality or trauma or whatever, it makes the bad feelings that you can have about that entirely your own fault because she's claiming that the only power anyone has over you is the power you give them, which is just not true. Right. Not to go head to head with you on whether this is good advice or not. Oh yeah. No, I mean, I think what is good advice is like what you said, but I also agree, like, there's this attitude that kind of ignores the fact that, like, we are all part of the system. We didn't just fall off the coconut tree. And I think I've just also seen other books present this in just a lot better ways. Like, I think of, like, all of the most popular books about polyamory or being in an open relationship. They all ask you to be very introspective about what is it that you want and to actually unpack, like, why do you have certain expectations about certain kind of relationships?

Why do you prioritize certain kinds of relationships over the other and how to actually have healthy communication with people, not just like letting them step all over you and then being like, hmm, let them. So yeah, I get what you're saying about, absolutely. I feel like my issue with the way that she tries to make all of this advice so universal and apply to every situation is that it ultimately becomes a false premise because it's like we live in a society and we have created a system. in which people do have power over others.

And if you're constantly trying to say, like, no one can tell me what to do, like no one has power over me. Only I have power and control over myself. In some ways, like, you would actually be disrupting the social fabric. Because I feel like this also feeds into the mentality of, like, I'm not getting vaccinated. Yes. Because, like, I control my own reality and other people don't have control over me. Or even, like, the attitudes that people, like, claim to hate, which is when, like,

students in class are like, I won't listen to the teacher or follow the rules. Like, it's just a very nuanced. The world is more nuanced than these black or white prescriptions would lead you to believe. And therefore, the advice ultimately becomes meaningless once you try to relate it to like the complexities of the real world. And as a public defender, as Matt, she's bringing up, she should know this because like public defenders are notoriously like under-resourced. She knows from her first career that the system definitely has control over you, that when you put yourself in front of a jury trial, they definitely have power over you. Mm-hmm. It does not make sense that someone with her background, I mean, it does be sense because she's a grifter, but knowing what her background is, it makes this seem just even more logical.

Yeah. I kept thinking when I was reading this book about, like, labor organizing, being born out of like the reality. Just one of so many examples. the civil rights movement, feminism, literally any social justice movement, any movement for any marginalized people, Stonewall. These are born out of realities that people understand that actually people do have power over us that we did not give them. And we can't just be like the police are raiding the gay bar again.

Let them. Could you imagine if Sylvia Rivera was like, let them? I need to make this. This is a pride episode technically because it's coming out during June. So I need to have a pride reference in there somewhere. Could you imagine she was just like. let them. It like gives the game away that all of the examples she comes up with are so benign. where it's like, let your grandma, like, read the news out loud.

Like, that's not even, like, very much of a real problem. It's just a temporary annoyance that would pass whether or not you bought this book. But also, like, the one where it's like, let my mother-in-law disagree with my parenting. Again, it really depends. Like, for most cases, this is probably true. But if your mother-in-law disagrees with your parenting because you're letting your kids skip school three out of five days a week, then she has a point. And, like, you should not be doing that.

It's just so useless. Like this advice to me is only good in like very specific like interpersonal situations. And even then it's not good for all of them. Right. So this book sold everyone's hold on to your hats. 10 million copies in 2025. Jesus. And I think there's a reason.

You know, Kat's mouth still hasn't shut. I'm devastated. I know. I know. It's so depressing. But it totally makes sense because go ahead, Matt, I caught you off. I just think that, yes, Mel Robbins is a talented grifter. But also, we are living in a political environment that has people so thoroughly disenfranchised

from the power of collectivism, from the power of tackling systemic change, and really from power at all. And I think that creates an emotional vacuum for quote unquote advice like this. Because if people consciously or otherwise feel like they have no power to affect the world around them, I think it makes sense that you will just want to take all of that and turn it inward, which to me is so depressing. It's so depressing because it's like so many great nonfiction books like really struggled to get even a couple thousand copies sold, even a couple like hundred, selling a few hundred copies of a book can be really, really hard. So, like, when I, I'm me trying to apply the let them theory to hearing the information

that there were 10 million copies. I'm just like, just let them spend $30 on a hardcover of this book instead of like something that will teach them anything. I know. This is why we podcast. Exactly. For the revolution, we podcast. The only good thing about so many people buying this book.

is that it makes money for the publisher so that they can pay for books that aren't going to sell a lot of copies. Like that's the good news about runaway bestsellers is they pay for other authors. But even still, it's just concerning. Absolutely. I should add, let them is only the first part of her theory, which is, you know, maybe not her theory. The second part, she says, is let me. Let them is about not allowing other people's behavior to bother you. let me is about, quote, taking responsibility for what you do next.

From the book, quote, let me stop expecting other people to always include me. Let me take responsibility for what I want in life. Let me figure out the deeper issue that I need to look at. It's just remarkably vague. Let me be more proactive about reaching out to people. Let me invite people to do something this week. she continued, you get the point. Let me, she says, is essential to make sure that let them doesn't make you feel lonely or isolated. I don't know. I kind of feel like the people she was around

at this point were like, you have to try to insert something in here that doesn't make the readers of this book total narcissists. Yeah. And like she tried. She's like, here's a little bit of praxis as a treat. Yeah, that's right. That's right. I also feel like the psychic damage of her friends going on this. weekend trip. Like, it exists throughout the undercurrent of this entire book. And I'm like, I feel like this is just totally me guessing here. But I'm like, it sounds based on this paragraph, like the problem was that you weren't being proactive in those friendships. But like, instead of doing that, you wrote an entire book about it and sold 10 million copies. Like, did you get invited to the next girl's trip? This is all, of course, assuming that that story is

actually true. Right. And she didn't just make it up. Which kind of brings me to the place. plagiarism accusations because we already know that when she first posted a video, she was like, I just heard about the let them theory. And then it goes viral. So she publishes a book where she says, I invented the let them theory when my daughter told me let them. Here is what we know. In 2019, four years before Mel Robbins publishes the let them theory, Cassie Phillips was a struggling writer when she wrote and published online a poem called let them. It's kind of long, But it starts, just let them. If they want to choose something or someone over you, let them.

If they want to go weeks without talking to you, let them. If they are okay with never seeing you, let them. If they are okay with always putting themselves first, let them. If they are showing you who they are and not what you perceive them to be, let them. She goes on. But, you know, kind of sounds familiar. The poem goes viral on social media in September of 2022. and in May 2020,

is when Mel Robbins first posted that TikTok where she had, quote, just heard about something called the let them theory. I just heard about this thing called the let them theory. In May of 2024, prior to the release of Mel's book, Mel tried to trademark, let them for books, apparel,

coaching, and online content. Now, to my understanding, those trademarks are still pending, but I also included here another passage from the book, because I just thought this was like so on the money in a way that Mel Robbins probably didn't intend. Every business has a formula. Follow it. I say that because one of the things I see people get hung up on all the time is this belief that I need to be different. That is a fancy way to say that you're afraid other people will think that you copied them. Reading this for the first time, everyone. This is an example of how your fear of what,

other people think holds you back from following the most obvious, easiest, and most proven path to success. Let them think you copied them because you did. And they copied the formula from someone else because they did. Okay. But you're going to trademark it, though, so no one else is. Right. Right.

Let that. Oh. I want to give you my personal theory of what happened here. And this is of course alleged Mel Robbins, please don't sue me. You don't you have enough money already? I think what happened was she probably has a team of people that scours the internet for things that she could post about. Maybe they come up with their own ideas too, but I feel like they probably look for a lot of things that they can gather and be like, how can we repackage this in a way that's like a little Mill Robinson-y. And I feel like if I had to guess someone from her team probably found this poem when it went viral and was like, we can probably make this little Mel Robbinsy.

Let's talk about how you just discover the let them theory. And then, of course, it went really viral. She can't really justify writing a whole book that'll sell millions of copies from someone else's idea. So she has to like retroactively create a story where her daughter told her to let her son get her tucks dirty, get his tux dirty. and then it's like your own thing now. And even if like, and I think they say this on the if books could kill podcast, like if she had like absorbed it in her like primordial stew and like forgot that she found it from someone else.

When it comes up that way, you should be like, oh my God, like I did not realize it came from this poem. I did like have I heard it from my daughter and I thought that was really interesting. Like there are so many ways to handle that with a little bit of grace when you have so much money when you're so successful that it's just it just so only the only the creator of the let them theory would be like no let me no she's at this point in her career where she could continue making money while also devoting most of her time to spotlighting other people and helping them grow their careers but she's like let me make money off of it by myself so so mel robbins has vehemently

denied the claim that this was plagiarized. But it has become such a thing online where so many people believe that it was plagiarized. There was a long-form Atlantic article that was published about this. And even if Mel Robbins, even if she really genuinely believed that she didn't plagiarize it, she could as a PR move, for example, pay this writer a million dollars. Mel Robbins is so rich that she could pay this writer a million dollars. The public would think that Mel Robbins was a goddess for doing this charitable, charitable act. And literally Mel Robbins would feel nothing financially. Like that's the part that I just can't.

It's like, I don't know, am I crazy? Let me be. I think she feels, and this is probably true, that if she opens up the doorway to like crediting where she gets these ideas from, then it's going to be really hard to shut that door because then people are going to be like, you've gotten all of your ideas from like viral posts on the internet. And, you know, here's what I will also say about let them.

is like even Cassie Phillips version, like, I do think the syntax that Mel Robbins is using around let them theory seems to be pretty obviously taken from this viral poem. But also, you know, none of this is original thought. Just like all of Mel Robbins's other advice, it's just like really basic therapy concepts branded for like the Girl Boss audience and repackaged and remarketed. And the thing that I thought of the whole time that I was reading this book is, do you guys know the serenity prayer? Yes, Catholic school alumni here. So I don't know why I know the serenity prayer. I think just because it's like, it's on so many like live, laugh, love type. Like, I think I've had it like framed in an Airbnb before. You know what I mean? Yeah. And if you

see anything about like recovery or AA, they always do the serenity player at the end of like the episodes and stuff like that. Goes like this. God grant me the serenity to accept. the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and wisdom to know the difference. That's the let them theory. Yeah. The serenity prayer, I feel like, goes way harder than the let them. Because the serenity prayer, I'm like, it's got some juice behind it. Yeah.

The wisdom and know the difference is like, that's a good. Exactly. I feel like the let them theory is just like a dumbed down version of it that does not even capture the nuance of the original sentiment. I was reading the Wikipedia page for the serenity prayer, and that goes back even further. First century Greek stoic philosopher, epictetus wrote, Make the best use of what is in your power and take the rest as it happens. Some things are up to us and some things are not up to us.

The 8th century Indian Buddhist scholar, Shantadeva, wrote, If there's a remedy when trouble strikes, what reason is there for dejection? And if there is no help for it, what use is there being glum? Beautifully written. And then the 11th century Jewish philosopher Solomon Ibn Gabberl, apologies on pronunciation, wrote, at the head of all understanding is distinguishing between what is and what cannot be and the consoling of what is not in our power to change. AKA the let them theory, it's just this, we've always had this.

We've always had this. And don't forget the 1988 Bobby McFerrin song, Don't worry, be happy. one of one of the classic pieces of let them theory i guess like you know it's not illegal for mel robbins to take a very very very basic philosophical concept that's always existed and repackage it with like a you know nice lime green cover but i think yeah it's just like the trademarking the like she talks about it in every interview like i've created this thing and it's completely changed the world i mean even on the cover cover of this book, which I have sitting behind me. At the top of the cover of the book, it says,

a life-changing tool that millions of people can't stop talking about. I mean, evidently, we are sitting here talking about it. So, like I said, I read a lot of the book. And most of it is just repeating this one piece of advice and applying it to many different situations. But it was like a little green eggs and ham like would you let them in a box would you let them with a fox would you let them in a house would you let them with a mouse these were some real real examples at a checkout line and the person in front of you is being slow let them on a plane and someone next to you is coughing let them this is an actual quote from the book so how do you use the let them theory to get someone to stop coughing You don't. You have to let them cough. Let them. Emphasis hers. Yeah. Let them. You might be wondering how let them could apply to your career. Here's Mel telling you what to do when your boss won't give you the promotion you deserve. I know it's tough to hear because it's true. Yes, it's not fair. Yes, you've earned the promotion. And yes, you deserve to be.

be angry about it. But let me ask you this question. Who is responsible for your career? That's right. You are. It's time for the let me part. Stop fix it on your current situation and start focusing on finding a better opportunity, you lazy, Jen Zier. Okay, right now there's an amazing job with a kick-ass boss, a better salary and a desk next to a window waiting for you to come and a find it. Health insurance, we can't say. Your company is not the only company on this planet. And there's a million bosses out there who would be ecstatic to help advance your career. Let me go get it. I don't think that's true. It's not true. Definitely not true. It's not true. Like there are a million bosses out there. There are not a million bosses out there who want to help

you advance your career. Like most bosses, I don't think are that great, let alone like going to help you advance your career, whatever that means. And like dying for you to come and take the office next to the window with a higher salary than you currently have. It's prosperity gospel. It's not true. I was listening recently to an interview that breaking points on YouTube did with this recent college graduate who had gone viral because he was telling the story. He was, I believe, like a software engineer or like something. He, I guess like last month graduated from college and got the degree that of course, everyone for the last 20 years told young kids to get and he applied to a hundred jobs. And I think he got like one interview and of course not get that job. And I

believe that the one interview that he did get was for an unpaid position. So tell me how that works. So it's just, I mean, it's, it's just literally not true. It, oh, this just pisses me off so much because this only serves A, to enrich Mel Robbins and B, to make everyone else feel terribly about the fact that they are systematically disadvantaged, but actually Mel Robbins is telling you that it's your fault and you're not trying hard enough and you applied to a hundred jobs and got one interview. Well, maybe apply to 101. Yeah. Lazy fucking non-binary college student. Right. Right. Why are you buying the avocado toast?

We told you to not let them force you to have avocado toast. There are some testimonials on the website from people who have read the book and say it really helped them. And the people who provided those testimonials are Oprah Winfrey. Okay. Jay Shetty. Awesome. Chloe Kardashian. Two bestselling authors.

And then Chloe Kardashian's Good American. co-founder. Shut the fuck up. Shut the fuck up. I will say, if anyone believes in the let them theory, though, it is Chloe Kardashian. She will let, let, let, let, let's, let's do. That's a ringing endorsement. She definitely uses let them theory.

That's what is really so bonkers is the fact that, like, this type of celebrity endorsement also clearly works so well. And I'm like, Oprah doesn't need another theory. Oprah, like, has figured it out. I promise you. Like these types of books and this type of advice only really works with working in quotation marks if you have already made it. If you are already very successful, if you already have the kind of job where you have that sort of mobility to accept better offers, then yeah, this is a great book for you. But the vast, vast, vast majority of people are not in that position.

Yeah. And I know I joked about it, but I do keep bringing up health care because that is a huge part of what. why people stay in jobs these days is because they need health insurance because it's so expensive and only going to get more so. And especially when you have an audience that's mostly women, it's like women need to have regular checkups, pap smears, so many things that are super important. And the complete omission of that is just so telling as like that she doesn't even see in her reality. It's also like a lot of the language that comes up in the positive reviews,

including from Chloe Kardashian, is that the book is really free. and that the book is freedom and that the book, like, it gives the whole game away, right? Because you're not even saying that you put the book into practice. You're just saying that the book made you feel better. It made you feel freer. It made you feel like, like, you could do things. It's all literally just like psycho speak. You might be wondering what the let them theory has to say about politics.

Mel writes, so how do you use the let them theory to change the state? state of politics at a local, national, or global level. You don't. The school board has already decided. The Senate has voted. These are the two candidates running. The election is over. It's tied up in the courts. Let them. You can't change what just happened. But I never said you couldn't change the future. Does it seem overwhelming? Yes. Does it feel like it won't make a difference? Yes, do it anyway. Let me stay engaged and vocal on issues I care about

and do something that can change the future of my local, national, and global politics. Don't sit around and wait for someone else to clean up the mess that you see. Girl, what are... Like, that the fetus screed and then... But you know what? You should still try a little bit. Just try a little bit. It'll help maybe. Who could say?

She goes on in the following paragraphs to like make offhanded mentions of like, vote if you care that much and like run for office, which is not bad advice. But I think she's clearly reached a place with the let them theory where she realizes that the let them theory doesn't fucking apply to the world like this. And so she's like, well, if you really care that much about it, run for office. and it's hard, but you can do something by doing something. And I'm just like, whatever. Have you thought about waking up 30 minutes earlier to start canvassing so you could do something about it?

It's also really telling to me that by using the let them theory as it relates to politics, you could advance a slate of policies that ruins other people's lives. So then how would the let them theory work for them? Because with that version of the let them theory, you're cutting off everyone else's ability to use the let them theory. If you've let yourself ban abortion, then what is someone who's pregnant and doesn't want to be pregnant anymore get to do what's their let them theory? Like just let them force me to have this child. Exactly. Let them ban abortion.

And by letting them, you will allow yourself to let me figure out what I do now. What are you talking about? What are what's going on? That's the rule now. Okay. That's the goal. She writes like three chapters on like people are judging you. Let them, which I think is generally okay advice.

She says, write the book. Ask them out. Wear what you want to wear. Go surf all day. Go back to school. Drop out of school. Get a dog. Book the trip.

Stop drinking. Embrace your sexuality. Hey! Take the path. that you've been scared to follow. Okay, happy pride from Mel Robbins, everyone. Yeah. That's like an episode of glee.

That's good advice. Like, I don't think I needed to buy a let them for Mel Robbins to tell me to embrace my sexuality, but that's good advice. I want to give her credit where credits do. Like, you know, if people are judging you, yeah, let them judge you. But again, it's just so vague that I also came back to thinking about anti-vaxxers, because it's so just afraid to engage with reality that you, of course, could read this if you were an anti-vaxter and feel very empowered about your decision to endanger the people around you.

It's also like, take one of these as an example, wear what you want to wear? What if you violate your school or workplace is dress code and then you get fired or suspended? Like, how is that going to? Like, it's just like, it doesn't work. It doesn't work in real life. It's not practical. I keep thinking about like, what if it was fuck them instead of let them? It's just like, and it's like, that's actually would be more.

more interesting of being like fuck it you know like like like kind of like the shonda rhymes book about the year of saying it to say like just say fuck it but but that's just too nihilistic but it's the same principle the same idea of like forget everybody else like just focus on you and that will always sort of be like you were saying before this kind of anti-collectivist thing in it like how do you evolve how do you decide which relationships are worth investing in if your default is fuck it the last thing i want to talk about within the book, the Let Them Theory, is one of the chapters she talks about what she calls frame of reference theory. Everything's a fucking theory with this one. And she writes, My friend Lisa Bill You, who is a best-selling author, host of Women of Impact podcast, and co-founder

of the billion-dollar nutrition company Quest Nutrition, shared the concept of frame of reference with me. It is a tool to help you deal with situations where someone disapproves of who you are, who you love, what you believe, or how you are living your life, and you want to navigate this at a deeper level. And then the whole frame of reference theory is just considering where someone else is coming from. That's it. It's just empathy. It's like, my mom doesn't want me to move across the country.

This is a real example she uses. Maybe it's because she's scared of losing me if I stay. living across the country. Yeah, I mean, that's like, considering where someone else is coming from is pretty basic advice. Yeah. But this is, I mean, this is such a great and, like, glaring example of how all of this bullshit is just the most basic possible advice.

But because Lisa Bill You, host of the Women of Impact and co-founder of the billion-dollar nutrition company Quest Nutrition said it, now it's the first. frame of reference theory. Right. It's like so tied up in like the myth of the myth of the genius CEO and like the justification of like why this person is super, super rich because all of this content is literally just like these people who are so like mediocre, but like just not really bringing anything super special to the table.

But they're just repackaging very basic concepts and being like, this is why I'm so rich. Not because of structural inequality or the privileges that I coasted on to get me here, but because I know what empathy is. Right. Also, like, being surprised by frame of reference theory. You were a lawyer. You understand scope. Like, it's like, what are you trying to?

Like, it's like the infantilization of it. It's like the cute little, the theory. Yeah. Oh, God, I have to be sick. No, she's like dumbing herself down to reach the widest possible audience. Which is also what I, something I like to think, of as pundit brain, which makes a lot of sense as to why she had that as her background. Wait, but you should coin that as you should call it Mel Robbins theory.

Yeah. Yes. That's a book I would read. There you go. The Mel Robbins let them theory, theory, by Cattenbar. Pre-order today. Link in the description. Me when Mel Robbins, suits me for plagiarism.

Let them. You're going to take that quote. you're going to copy, paste it, send it back with the appeal. She said it's okay. Like, she gave me permission to do this. Oh, my God. I'm moving my fucking mind. Surviving let them.

Oh, my mascara is going to run. Okay. We got this. We are going to close the let them theory for right now. That was the sound of me closing the let them theory. Now, when I texted Kat, to see if she would be interested in doing this episode with me and gave her a brief overview of what Mel Robbins has been up to.

Kat, you said, literally the four horsemen of the grift apocalypse, AI MLM's secular prosperity gospel and protein. We'll get to AI in a second, but we have arrived, my dear listener, at protein. Oh, my God. We need fiber, everyone. Eat some beans. God. In early 2025, Mel Robbins, who doesn't have enough money yet,

launches Pure Genius, a roughly 3-ounce-100-calorie-zero-sugar protein shot. Mel Robbins calls herself a co-founder of the Pure Genius Protein Shot. In reality, this was created earlier on by a celebrity bodybuilder called Dr. Mike Isratel under the name Genius Shot. And then it seems like, you know, because Mel Robbins calls herself a co-founder. So you'd think like she was like on the ground day one being like, let's develop this protein shot.

In reality, I think she got in touch with the people who were making it, realized that this would be a good vehicle for her wealth, and then threw a bunch of money at it, and then they rebranded it around Mel Robbins. According to the website, Mel has, quote, been deeply involved throughout every step of the product development. She has also handpicked the founding scientific advisory team of world-class physicians, specializing in nutrition, longevity, weight loss, and hormonal health. Now, when I read this, are you guys familiar with that 2009, not to invoke Kanye West, but

he was talking about Lady Gaga having just collaborated with Polaroid, and he said, quote, look at Gaga. She's the creative director of Polaroid. I like some of the Gaga songs. But what the fuck does she know about cameras? That's one of the best Kanye bits to this day. Why is Mel Robbins picking the scientific advisory team? What the fuck does she know about protein shots? Like so unqualified.

But you know what? She learns from making her own mistakes and ruining her life and then doing it. So who knows? Right. She doesn't need qualifications because she actually got food poisoning once. So she knows how to develop food now. She eats chicken every day. She understands.

There's also an element to this, which is kind of insidious, which is like if you go, like, look at her, like the protein story. She's like talking about how women do need to build muscle by a certain age, which is true, but you don't need to buy protein shots to do that. And in fact, she's making it seem like you have to have a certain level of disposable income in order to do this thing for your health and your well-being and your longevity. When the reality, like, she has such a huge platform and she has so much wealth. She could be doing a real public service by showing women how you can accomplish these same goals, like health goals without needing to buy expensive, useless supplements.

She's doing it in the most evil way possible. That wouldn't make her money. Right. It actually probably would make her money because she could monetize the ad revenue on those videos, but it wouldn't make her as much money as just making her own fucking protein drink. Here's Mel talking about the purpose. protein shot. This woman would sell you crack cocaine if she could brand it as a self-help product. Oh, my God. What do you mean? I shouldn't exercise without eating protein. Exercising on an

empty summit for women is because it's for women. Yes. The information is for a woman by a woman. So I made it my goal this year, Emma, to get more protein. And I'm going to tell you something. It's really hard to get a lot of protein. Yeah, I know. And I'm cooking and I'm shaking and I'm smoothieing and I'm cottage cheese and I'm egg bites and I'm doing what I can't and I'm always falling short every day and the bars are melting in my purse and I got a refrigerator so I can't take it on the go and so I started calling doctors and saying what do you do I started asking other people in the space what do you recommend and I bumped into these people that were working on this shot and I got so excited about it and a year ago I became a co-founder behind the scenes of this brand new company

called Pure Genius that was working on a clinical grade protein shot that is the viscosity of water. You can pour this in a margarita. You can pour this in iced tea. You can chug this. You can put this in your kid's lunchbox. When my dad was having brain surgery and we couldn't keep him nourished, he could have taken this. We have a doctor who has gotten on board who told us that sucralose is counteracting to chemotherapy. It's one of the worst things that you can eat if you're a cancer patient. Is that true? It is true. And so she cited all the research on it. So I've been to the labs. I've been and working with the scientists. We have driven the formulation. Our scientific board has signed off on this. They cannot wait to start recommending this to people because we're taking

protein out of the gym and into your life and into your golf bag and your backpack and the lunchboxes. It's simple and it fits into a busy person's life. That's pure genius. Mel Robbins is going to hell. I'm sorry. I looked it up and it's like the pure genius shot, according to this, has about 32 grams of protein. Like, depending on how much protein intake, if you're trying to do like a healthy, whatever, like, mine is 92 grams of protein. Like, that would be a lot of bottles. And you shouldn't also be getting that much protein primarily from drinking a, like a thing like this. It needs to be through eating food that give you other nutrients because you need some.

calories. I understand everyone right now is trying to get healthy. Getting protein is good for you, but there is just such this way in which people promote disordered eating through like trying to like make it like a one easy fix-it thing. It's like it's okay to have a protein shot. Like it's okay to have a smoothie, but like you need other things. Like if it had caffeine, maybe that would be more interesting. Like it has to give you something else. It's just, I don't like it. It's also, can I just say like first of all, this protein craze is ridiculous. If you aren't a weightlifter, you don't need all of the protein that, like, first of all, I think so much of this is led by RFK Jr.

Yes. And the sort of, like, vibes that have emanated off of him and into the rest of America that, like, we all need to be having, like, more meat, more protein. You know, like, they've literally, like, reshaped, I don't know, whatever, like, Michelle Obama's, like, my plate thing was around this. I feel like every administration reshapes the food nutrition guidelines, whatever. But average people don't need. I was like looking it up.

Most Americans get enough protein. You don't need to buy like every new protein snack that hits the thing that costs four or five, six dollars a pop. But everything that Mel Robbins does that makes a gazillion dollars, she's like, I just, I had a need. I had a problem. It organically came up. It fell into my lap.

My daughter said, let them. I needed more protein. So I called the doctor. No, you didn't. This is a trendy thing in trendy upscale. supermarkets right now and you wanted to get into it. You wanted your piece of the pie. You reached out to people who you heard were developing a product that you thought would be profitable and you put your name on it. Oh my God. Just like stop scamming. And don't you have enough money?

She has one of the most listened to podcasts in the country. She sold 10 million copies of this book, not to mention the other three books. It is literally like biblical greed. No, seriously. If you've sold 10 million books. That is so much money. And like, I can't help but notice she's putting all of these buzzwords in here about like cancer and like health conditions. And it's like you're starting to sound, RFK Jr. Absolutely.

Dr. Oz, another member of the Trump administration who hawk supplements. Like you're starting to sound like all of these people. And you're starting to get into and again, like this is no surprise because she does this all the time. but it's so insidious. You are preying on people's personal tragedies and vulnerabilities, and you're positioning it as, like, expert and doctor informed. I hope there's not a doctor out there who's prescribing patients, the Mel Robbins Pure Genius protein shot.

But if you look... I'm sorry, I just can't take it serious. Yeah, exactly. If you look in the comments on this Facebook video, her top commenters, like her biggest fans are literally saying, I showed this to my doctor. This person says, took this to my doctor's appointment and she was shocked at the good stuff. It has in it. And is going to start recommending it to her patients.

No, no, no, no. That must be so uncomfortable. Like, it's so unfair because we live in such a fucked up system that it's like, I get it. I get people being nervous, being scared, wanting to find some way to like get some care. And that's what makes it so nefarious. because it's taking advantage of that because it is true. Like so many things, like especially when it comes to protein stuff,

a lot of it isn't based around what women's needs are, people in different kind of body spectrums. Like we do need more diversity in that regard, but she is just doing it in the most griftery way possible. Pretty recently, the pure genius protein shot got into target stores around the country. And so Mel Robbins did a photo shoot in front of a target holding up the pure genius protein shot. We don't have to stay here for long.

I just, I saw this photo and I couldn't not mention it. Are you guys seeing in the outline? I'm going to throw it up on the screen. She is holding this protein shot in front of her, standing in front of the Target logo, looking at the protein shot, like it is like a bottle of like youth elixir from God. Yeah, the substance itself. We've come so far from like, I have no credentials. I'm just helping people overcome things in their life through what I've learned to like drink my elixir of life.

And her pose is hilarious because you would think that she just was like she was giving you some good shit. Okay, well, do you know what this pose reminds me of? And this is really why I wanted to include the photo in the in the podcast is because have you ever seen the video of Charlie XX? You know what I'm going to say? Yes. Where a fan at a meet and greet handed her a bottle of rush Poppers and asked her to sign it and then hold it up and say gay rights. Gay rights! Not only is this the exact pose that Charlie held up the Popper's bottle with, but the bottle itself of the pure genius protein shot does look a little like Poppers.

Mm-hmm. The last thing I have to say about these protein shakes is there's like a tweet that's going around that's like, y'all are eating all of this fake protein that has. has like 100 calories, zero sugar. Like, it smell crazy in there. And I'm like, yeah. This would make really unfortunate things happen to my tummy if I drank one of these. Yeah, the poops are diabolical because they don't get no fiber. The final pillar of Mel Robbins's grift.

And my friends, I know that we have been here for a very long time. I appreciate you for sticking with us. But of course, I could not let you go without talking. about how Mel Robbins has gotten into, yes, of course, you guessed it, AI. In early May, 26, Mel Robbins spoke at the SAS Innovate Conference. SAS is a private, this is according to the Wikipedia page, a private multinational developer of analytics and artificial intelligence software. It is one of the largest privately held software providers in the world,

and the SAS Innovate Conference is an annual conference held for basically for AI business leaders at this point because it's just all about AI now. In a write-up about Mel Robbins's speech at this conference for bNT.com, Melania Watson writes, best known for her 5-4-321 method often referred to as the five-second rule, Robin argued that the same mental tool used to overcome procrastination is what can help marketers push past fear when it comes to implementing AI. Of course she would. The problem isn't that you don't know what to do, Robbins told the crowd, is that you're thinking about it instead of acting on it. If you think about something for more than five seconds, your brain will talk you out of it, she said. Whether it's adopting AI, having a hard conversation, or making a bold decision, there is always going to be an excuse not to do something. Robbins discussed the human mindset,

that arguing that, quote, resistance to AI is rooted in the brain's natural tendency to avoid difficult or unfamiliar tasks. Your brain is wired to conserve energy, she said. It will always default to what's easy. That's why you avoid the thing that could actually move your business forward. For marketers, she said, that often shows up as delaying AI adoption in favor of safe or familiar workflows. In order to change, you have to understand your brain will resist it. Robin's advice to the room was to, quote, stop waiting for certainty. People only change when they're forced to or when they choose to. So the question is, are you going to wait or are you going to decide?

This is so dystopian. So this is the end result of Mel Robbins's theories and life advice having absolutely zero attachment to reality. She's saying everything that I say can apply to everything. and therefore the reason people are hesitant about putting their workflows into AI is because they're scared to act and scared to make bold decisions, count down from five and just jump, honey. I feel like this says a lot about where the AI industry is right now as well, because

similarly to how they pulled in Mel Robbins to tell people, like, don't leave your MLM, like, just keep going harder. It's like back in 2023 when all of these AI companies were launching for the first time, it was like people can't adopt AI fast enough. Like people, AI is so amazing that you're going to love it. It's not even a question. And now the rhetoric has turned into like, stop thinking about the consequences of AI or your fears around AI because of all of the shit we've seen happen over the past three years. And just do it. That to me shows that the AI industry is now like it needs someone like Mel Robbins to come in and be like, do not think about the consequences of your actions at all. Just go, go, go. And the AI industry is paying her. This speech is written

by those people. Yes, maybe in collaboration with her team or whatever to put it in her voice. But they're paying her to say this. Exactly. Follow the money. And it's so passive, all of it that you could be, you could put in anything. It's like, you could say resistance to colonialism is rooted in the brain's natural tendency to avoid difficult or unfamiliar tasks. Like, you can say that about anything. Like, it's just such a passive, mindless way of talking about a real economic

and humanitarian climate crisis. It's so divorced. But I also think she feels this way because AI would develop 17 prompts for her, allegedly, and she could just make a book off of any of those because it's the same sort of circular self-like, reinforcing rhetoric that AI does is so similar to what she does. It's like you are promoting something that would take your job away in a heartbeat because you're so convinced that you're so exceptional

that you could never be touched by this change happening. It's ridiculous. I know I've made this point multiple times now, but like Mel Robbins, she like she would take money from the tobacco industry. Oh yeah. She would take money from anyone. She does take money from anyone, including we get further into the depths of the AI industry and actually looping back up to my intro of this episode. A few days after her SAS speaking appearance, which she no doubt was paid six figures for, Mel Robbins uploaded a video to Instagram,

which was a paid sponsorship she had with Microsoft co-pilot, which if you don't know, is Microsoft's Consumer AIBot. I'm going to just play the video. Have you guys seen the video? I have not, so I'm ready to be upset. I need to talk about this Harvard study and the shocking statistic that up to 40% less women are adopting AI at the rate that men are. Women, especially if you're my age, I'm 57 years old. You cannot be left behind.

When it comes to using technology that is shaping the way that work is evolving and that your life can get better, oh my God, you have to lean in. And since I've been talking about it on the podcast, I can't believe how many. if you're trying AI and what you're saying, there are no stupid questions. Now I have a personal assistant. I finally feel capable. And look, maybe you feel like Patricia. AI technology makes me uneasy, but the thought of being left behind frightens me even more. It's my responsibility to take initiative and adapt to this new landscape. Exactly. I love that attitude. And I want to make it so easy for you to start. So I'm giving you two specific ways you can use AI right now to save time.

and money. And all you do is you go to co-pilot and you paste these exact prompts in. Before we start talking about what she has just said, I want to read you the prompt that she put in her comments for people to copy and paste into Microsoft Copilot. She writes, copy and paste or upload a screenshot of this prompt to take control of your money. Quote, I feel overwhelmed behind or ashamed about my money and I want help understanding what's actually going on without judgment. Go slowly and guide me one step at a time. Don't give me everything at once. After each step, stop and wait for my response before continuing. I'll share documents, like bank statements, debt statements, bills, and income info when you ask. If I'm not sure what to

upload, start by telling me the three most helpful documents to share first. Ask one question at a time. She goes on. she was just like, upload all of your bank statements into Microsoft co-pilot. And also the entire script for this video and the entire concept for this video is, of course, approved by Microsoft, including the whole like, women are going to get left behind stick. Which is fucking bullshit. This just happened like within the past months that she is like doing this and telling people to upload their financial documents. And just a few months before this BBC article, Microsoft air. sees confidential emails exposed to AI tool copilot. There's been like a number of security breaches

with regards to these AI tools, including Microsoft's own AI tools, where like people's sensitive and confidential information is being leaked, being fished, like being strolled. So it's just like, on a very basic level, it's not smart to upload anything super sensitive to an AI. Like a lot of them have been shown to have these like security vulnerabilities. The other part of this that really pisses me off is like a lot of people with financial struggles are not struggling because they don't necessarily understand what's happening. Like there's a financial literacy component to it. But the biggest issue is that people just aren't making enough money.

Their wages are not rising with the cost of inflation or increased cost of living. They do not have opportunities to make more money. They do not have upward mobility at their job. And AI can't help you with any of that, nor can, like, most of these financial coaches in the same vein as Mel Robbins. So it's just like AI is the ultimate logical conclusion of just like years and years of nonsense that doesn't actually help anyone. It's just an automated version of that. I also find it so funny how she's framing this around like women getting left behind. And to me, that's especially funny because to get a little gamer nerdy, the new, I'm a new, I don't know,

head of Xbox, which is owned by Microsoft, is a woman. I believe her name is Aisha Sharma. And one of the big things that she did was say that she was not going to develop any more of the co-pilot for gaming because the Xbox audience was so against the idea of having AI slop in their games. So even a company that is owned by Microsoft has a female president who, as out of response for the gaming industry, the fans, everything was like, okay, people aren't interested in this kind of stuff for counsel. We're not developing co-pilot for consoles. So if a woman in power who works for Microsoft can do that, what is Mel Robbins' excuse? Right.

The caption of this post is, you know what's scarier than trying something you've never done before? Not trying at all and being left behind. If you're avoiding AI because it feels intimidating, here's the truth. You don't need to be tech savvy. You don't need to ask perfect questions. You don't need to understand everything. You don't need to understand everything. Well, you should probably understand some things. You just need to, in all caps, start. Personally, at the age of 57, I still don't have enough fucking money so I need to do this fuck-ass sponsorship. Sorry, that's not what she wrote. Personally, at the age of 57, I don't want to get left behind when it comes to learning new technology. And I refuse to let fear about AI have me opt out of something that will be a massive part of all of our

lives, whether you like it or not. That's why I have partnered with Microsoft co-pilot and not because of how much money they're paying me, because I have made a decision to learn as much as I can about AI and help other women do the same. You know who this sounds a lot like? Who? That one video from Reese Witherspoon, where she literally said, where she literally said this exact thing. And what I need all of you to know, which I'm sure you probably do know intuitively, but if you don't know how influencer partnerships work, these captions, if they are not written by the companies, they are approved by the companies. You can't just put whatever caption you want. So this is this entire framework, this entire thing of like, you're all going to get left behind. That is

a marketing strategy of the companies making money off of this. Exactly. Yep. And I think a lot of these AI companies specifically want to market to women because women drive a lot of consumer trends that turn companies from blips into like actual like mainstays. And women are not as enthusiastic about AI as men. And the reality is like women are right to not be as enthusiastic about AI as men. Yes. When when Grock Image Generation was introduced to Twitter, I believe it was like between 40% and half of all of the images that were generated were of nude women. We're taking women's faces and putting them on naked bodies, undressing women, including thousands of images of girls, children.

But I don't know. I'm sure people are hesitant. I'm sure women are hesitant to use AI, not because of any of that, but because what is Mel Wright? Because they're afraid of asking perfect questions. What does that even mean? That's the mean again. What's going on?

What's going on? What are we doing? It's so patronizing. And, you know, I try not to have more smoke for women who do this kind of stuff. But at the day, I do. Because we have so much more information about how women are being negatively impacted by so much happening in this political moment, in this government, in this climate, and how AI is going to exacerbate that. And she's just kind of like, but are you just scared?

Yeah, I'm scared, girl. because the planet is going to explode. I live here. I'm scared because I don't have a house like yours and I don't know how I'm going to be able to ever afford one. Like it's like at the end of the day, like Mel Robbins has built this audience of women from what it seems like from looking at her comment sections. Like it's a lot of older women who really have put a lot of trust and faith into her. And she, she has always been selling them something that I don't think is like really that helpful, but you'll all allow that I'm sure a lot of people have read these books and feel like they have helped them. And that's not nothing. But at this stage, she's just crossed over

fully into grift territory to the point where now she's selling things that are absolutely harmful to these women, but they still trust her. And that is like super insidious. And that is sad. That's right. That's right. And it's like Mel Robbins, she's very happy to hawk products like this, like AI, that will make your life worse, that as you said, will exacerbate, among other things, financial strife for the vast majority of people. Look at the way it's destroying the job economy. And Mel Robbins is fine with that, not only because she's personally made hers and doesn't care. And, you know, in this creation of the permanent underclass, she's not part of it. But also because the more disillusioned you feel about your place in the world, the more you'll continue

to turn to Mel Robbins. She can help perpetuate the problem and then she can keep selling you bad advice. She makes money on both ends of that equation. So true. It's so gross. That's kind of all I had. I think that puts a perfect cap on it. There's never really a good time to make this episode because.

I don't know, probably like within the next month, she'll like put out some other shitty. I don't know. What's like a griff she hasn't touched yet? No, those full body scans that celebrities are hawking now where they're like, find out any cancer or disease that you have. I could see her, she's going to have one of those. Use code Mel, for 50% off. Oh, she'll probably team up with Chloe Kardashian, not Chloe Courtney Kardashian for like those lemmy pills that she does. I could see a Mel Robbins lemmy collaboration, honestly. Robbins ex push. Oh, yeah.

Let them push. Yes, let them push. That's what be. Oh, yes. Princess and Kat, where can I let people find your work elsewhere? You can let me tell you. I'm mostly here on YouTube. com and I do videos all about pop culture and feminism and queerness.

Talked about AI stuff on here. I'm mostly on here and I am on a blue sky where I'm Princess M Weeks, Princess with only one S because I misspelled it. And sometimes I do talk shit on TikTok. But I'm just so happy to be here. I'm such a huge fan of both of you. So this was a total pleasure to get to talk and learn so much about this really terrible woman.

Likewise. And I'm also on blue sky at Kattenbarred and also spitfirenews.com. That's the main place to go. Thank you both so much for joining me on this journey. And thank you, dear listener. I don't know how long this episode is going to be after we cut it up. But I'm so grateful that you have journeyed through the weeds with us. I had fun. I feel like I broke my brain irreparably, but I had fun. And I love you so much. Until next time, don't let them. Fuck him.