A Bit of Optimism - 28 Years on the Force: Chief Angela Averiett on What It Really Takes to Change Police Culture

Episode Date: February 16, 2026

It’s often true that the most challenging conversations are often the ones most worth having. Conversations that bring up strong feelings, different experiences, and questions without easy answers. Policing, and how we can make it better, is one of those conversations.San Leandro Police Chief Angela Averiett has spent nearly three decades in law enforcement, navigating the profession’s challenges while advocating for a healthier path forward. I met Angela through The Curve, my organization focused on helping policing evolve to meet the needs of a modern world. She’s a powerful example of forward-thinking leadership, exploring how culture, mindset, and psychological safety shape the way officers show up for each other and for the communities they serve.In this episode, Angela and I unpack why cynicism is so common among officers, how strong leadership creates healthier team cultures, and why rebuilding trust in policing starts from the inside out. Angela shares stories from her career that reveal a different side of police work: where compassion improves safety, discretion matters more than enforcement, and leadership means creating space for people to be human. Together, we explore the balance between strength and empathy, and why healthier internal cultures lead to stronger relationships with the public.Whether you’re a leader interested in organizational culture or simply curious about how policing can evolve, I hope this conversation offers an honest and hopeful perspective on the work ahead.---------------------------If you want to learn more about the work The Curve is doing, head to: https://www.thecurve.org---------------------------

It wasn't until 2015 that I felt comfortable enough to cry in front of people. So one of my colleagues was killed in the line of duty, and I remember showing up to work that day. And that was the first time I allowed myself to cry in front of my coworkers. And what was the response? Everyone else was crying, too. Everyone was a wreck. And I think it created a safe space for them to express that. That's another thing that we don't build into our culture, is that it's okay to be vulnerable.

because vulnerability, people mistake it as a sign of weakness. I think it's a superpower. Law enforcement. The mere utterance of the word gets some people's blood pumping on both sides of the political aisle. But the fact is, we need police in a civilized society. The question we have to grapple with is what's the best way for a modern police organization to operate in today's world? Here's what I've learned.

Nearly all of the scandals the police have had almost always boiled down to the same issue, a lack of good leadership or a broken corporate culture, which are completely interrelated. That's why I invited Chief of Police, Angela Averett, to join me on the podcast. She's been a cop for over 27 years and has seen a thing or two in her time. She leads a mid-sized police force in California and has embraced many of the leadership and culture building techniques that folks like the military and many modern corporations already used. And the results have been astounding.

We touched on a lot of hot-button subjects, and we shied away from nothing. I can guarantee that we will say at least one thing that will make almost everyone listening a little bit uncomfortable. But if we want to modernize the way police cultures are built today, we have to be open to having a curious and honest conversation about it. I'd like to add that Chief Avert is also a member of an organization that I founded not long after the murder of George Floyd, the Curve Initiative. The curve brings together some of the most forward-thinking, modern-minded chiefs and sheriffs, Republicans and Democrats, from across the country to figure out how we can help police learn the newest and best ways to build their leaders and build strong corporate cultures.

Chief Averyt knows that the only way we can make a positive and lasting change in the police, for the police, and for the community, is if the change comes from the inside out. If you'd like to learn more about the work we're doing at The Curve, please visit us at thecurve.org. This is a bit of optimism. I have many questions. The police are, they're a topic these days, more than ever before, I think.

They're not just civil servants that operate in the background, you know, at moments we love them, at moments we hate them, depending on, you know, our level of need or what flavor, what side you're on. They've always been somewhat political in the sense that, you know, crime is, I guess, the political thing. And there's different theories about how to fight it. But I would venture to say since the murder of George Floyd and up until today, the police have been front and center of at the very minimum, the news and more than that controversy and debate. That's fair. I think that's a fair statement.

And I want to get to that with you. Let's start from the beginning. What did you choose this as a profession? Where did you, like, where'd you grow up? What did you study? You know, like, how are you here now as a chief of police? How much time do we have? Because that's a very long story.

It is very twisted. So I actually never had any intentions of being a police officer. I wanted to be an airline pilot. And I was around 20 years old and had just gotten married to my husband that I'm still married to. He's my first husband, my only husband. Congratulations. Thank you. I'm so happy to say.

That's an accomplishment just in these day. Exactly. We had a small child at the time. And I was trying to figure out, you know, what I wanted to do. I worked at an airline and I really wanted to be an airline pilot. The problem was we were very poor and couldn't afford flying lessons. And so my brother, who's a firefighter, told me about this job working at the police department. And I was like, oh, great. It's, you know, double what my salary is now, which I think at that time was like $15 an hour, right, which I thought was a lot of money. And I was like, yeah, I'm going to be able to take my flying lessons. Well, the problem was, it still wasn't enough money. for me to take flying lessons, but I went on a ride-along, and that changed, literally changed the trajectory of my life. Like, I'm even getting, like, worked up talking about it right now because I remember being so scared, but so energized on that ride-along, and we didn't even do anything. I think we went to an alarm call at some commercial building, and I remember the officer like doing the Scooby-Doo thing and, like, creeping around and, you know, stay right behind me. And I was just like, oh my God, this is so exciting.

And I remember how people looked at us when we drove by, not always with the nicest look on their face. But I just remember feeling like such a huge part of the community being on that right along. And that's really what propelled me in this direction. It took me three years to get hired on as an officer back then. You went to the academy, obviously. Yes. You sworn and you operate in the, you're in the Bay Area.

Yes. What was something? Because once you get on the job, I mean, you know this, the excitement of driving at high speed and turning on the lights and sirens. At some point, it goes away. The adrenaline. No, it doesn't. No?

Always. Always. Yes. What did you discover on the job that made it even better? And what did you discover that made it even worse? Oh. I think what made it better was really having the ability to affect someone's life in a positive way. And, you know, I'm meeting people literally on the worst day of their life sometime.

And it's tragic and it's hard. It's gritty. It's, it's dark. But taking that moment and having the ability to turn it around to give this individual some glimmer of hope that I'm going to be there to help them and get them through this dark time. Okay. So, so I remember I responded to the hospital one night. This lady had been a victim of domestic violence. She had been with this man for a long time, and he had shot her.

Well, this was the second time that he shot her. He shot her one time and she didn't die. He shot her this second time in the head. But luckily, the angle of the bullet kind of skirted around her skull and exited. So she was alive. I've never met this one in my life. I walk into the ER and I say, hi, I'm Angela. I'm here to take your report.

And I looked at her and I said, you know what, your mother was right. And she looks at me like, I don't know you. What are you talking about? And I said, girl, you are hard-headed. And as corny as that joke was, it made her relax. We probably laughed for five minutes. And then she told me the story about what happened.

And so I just wanted to build a rapport with her. I wanted to calm her down because she was so afraid in that moment. And I don't know what happened to her. I know she survived that. I don't know if she went back to him. But in that small moment, Simon, I just felt like I was able to give her some hope, some happiness. And it made me feel good to help her in that way. And so that's the positive thing on the job is I meet so many different types of people.

And I'm able to, in some small way, help them through a dark time. The flip side, though, is that there are a lot of dark times. And I've seen some horrendous, horrendous things in my time on the job, things that I think I've packed away in a little box and thrown into the back of my brain because I don't want to remember them. And I'm sure a lot of cops will say the same thing, right? We come across some of the, some of the worst in our society, right? Like, I like to be happy. I like to be an optimist. I like to think the best in people, but not everyone is good. We come across true evil. And that's the part, that's the worst part of the job. And seeing, you know, children dying,

seeing people being abused, children being abused, horrendous accidents. It's a lot sometimes to process. Cops are some of the most cynical people I've ever met for all the reasons you said. They see people at their worst. They know everyone, regardless of their income, regardless of their color, they know everyone has it in them to do something bad, to, even if it's, you know, you know, you, Even if it's something stupid, like you get caught for speeding and you start yelling at the cop. And I did ride-alongs when I was in college with the Massachusetts State Police. And I saw it. And so more than any other civil servant, cops are really cynical.

Is that a good thing? Is that a bad thing? Is it just go with the job? Does it hurt the profession? Is it something that can you make cops less cynical? You know? Sorry, I'm laughing because I don't think that's possible. I don't think that's possible.

I mean, they're cynical. Yeah. About society, because for everything you just said, they see people, yes, there's good, and they all have the stories of helping the little old ladies across the street. And I feel like my job has value. And there's a lot of that that's, let's be honest, it makes it onto the websites. Of course. And the chiefs like to say, look at all our cops helping kittens out of trees.

But at the end of the day, it's a lot of people at their worst, and it's a lot of bad days. Even if it's a car accident where nobody did anything, but it's a bad day. Correct. I think it's part of the job. It's a coping mechanism. But it all evolves around mindset, right? If you allow the evil and the darkness to stay in your brain 24-7, it's going to turn you dark. It's going to turn you cynical, right? I don't think it's possible to train the cynicism out of who we are as police officers. It's how we cope with things, to be quite honest. However, I think we've made some strides in, lessening the cynicism through focusing on officer wellness, which 20 years ago was not a thing. There was no wellness. Like I remember going to a fire where this eight-year-old boy died. And it was horrible. It was a horrible scene.

And I escorted his body to the hospital. And I just remember, like, being so devastated in that moment for his family. And there was nothing I could do. And then my sergeant shows up and he's like, hey, are you okay? Well, of course I'm going to say I'm okay, right? And he goes, okay, well, you have a call holding. I need you to clear and go hit the street. So I went from that.

I don't even know what the next call was. It didn't matter what it was. But I wasn't able to process what I was going through in that moment. Now I think what we would do is pull people off the street, let them go back to the station decompressed, maybe even send them home. But I had to just keep going and taking reports from people. That's why I think people sometimes get cops that aren't at their best. because you don't know what call they just came from to come see you, right?

We didn't do a great job in thinking about or talking about our mental health. And we saw a lot of issues because of it. You know, officer suicide still is a huge problem. Alcoholism, you know, the list goes on and on and the vices that we probably find to deal with the stress and the pain of this job. But I think just talking about it first is helpful. recognizing that there's a problem, but also I think we don't talk enough about mindset, right? So I can tell you that there were many times on the job where I wanted to quit, I wanted to retire. I just didn't have it in me that day to carry on because it was just exhausting.

Oh, also, we work a lot of weird shifts. We work long hours, right? And so what I would do to reset myself sometimes is there was a store in town that, well, it was a puppy mill. Okay, so I know that's not the best thing, right? I know people are going to like lose their minds over it. But still, they had puppies. And the puppies were amazing. And I would go in there and I would play with all the puppies. And I would almost cry because it was so amazing. And it would, it would reset my mind. And I would go back on the street. And I'd like, okay, I got this. I can do this another day. And it was something private, separate. Nobody could make fun of you because nobody knew you were doing it. Well, my partner at the time, she went with me. Okay. But we didn't tell anybody.

It was our secret. I think people don't appreciate that a lot of the scandals, problems, even excessive of violence that we see that has come out of some police agencies, police forces. You know, when somebody is in a high-stress job in the private sector, let's add in some unhealthy corporate culture where you might get along with everybody, but you don't really trust anybody, which is pervasive in policing, which we'll talk about in a moment. And so you have a high-stress job, you have excessive amounts of machismo and testosterone. You can't ask for help. You know, you get, somebody comes in right after you, you come from an eight-year-old, you know, dead body, and now you have to go out and be chipper again.

Now, in the private sector, if you're in a high-stress job and not a lot of trust at work, not a lot of psychological safety, nobody is surprised when you come home, you sit on the couch, you stare at the TV, you're short-tempered with the kids, you kick the dog, you're despondent and you don't, you're just not a fun person to be around. Nobody is surprised by that. That's how stress shows up very often, right? A lot of short-tempered. If you give somebody authority in a gun and you multiply that stress by a factor of however many more than just general work stress, it is unsurprising when there is excessive violence where it may be coming from, maybe it be sourced from. And I remember this is how you and I met, you know, full disclosure. I started a charity called The Curve of which you've been involved with now for a few. years where we believe modernizing policing starts from the inside out. And when we founded

the organization, I remember talking to lots of chiefs and sheriffs, the ones who believe the change has to happen. And I went around the room and said, what's the problem? And we got 20, 30 different answers. And the first question we said was, how can we help the profession? How can make the profession better if we don't even know what the problem is? But what we found was there's a common factor in all of these problems that the chiefs and sheriffs articulated, which was poor leadership and broken cultures. And I don't think people recognize and realize we have an entire industry that teaches leadership. I'm a part of it.

It's embraced by corporate. Some corporations do better than others, obviously. But it's a thing. It's a thing. In the military, we see leadership training. Every time there's a promotion, whether you're enlisted or officer, they, again, we can debate. the efficacy of it, but they understand that it's important to train leaders when they become leaders. Policing, there's very little of that as a profession. You want to make sergeant,

you take a test. You decide that I want to be a sergeant, and you take the test, and basically it's like you promote yourself. I mean, kind of. You know, kind of sort of. It's not like somebody says, you're a great leader, we're going to promote you to sergeant, and there's a process. Am I right or am I overstating it? Well, sort of. Somewhere in the middle. Somewhere in the middle. Yes, there is a process that we have to follow. People take a test, but sometimes people are good test takers. But does that mean that they're good leaders? It's a combination of technical skill, right? Because there is a highly technical element to this job, right? And to be a sergeant, you have to know how to do the basic things, right? There should be an element of leadership. Yes, in the questions, in the process. So I actually am putting on a sergeant's test in two weeks. And there is an element to leadership. in the testing process. But I have to tell you, Simon, I think it's not just about the lack of leadership training. I sincerely believe it's about culture and changing the culture from the inside out.

We treat each other like absolute crap sometimes internally. That's where the nest is. That's where the problem starts is we talk crap about each other all the time. We treat each other terribly. We have some leaders who are just terrible leaders. some leaders that are just terrible individuals, to be quite honest with you, right? I can say that I've worked for some phenomenal leaders in this job, and I've worked for some leaders that are trash. And so they have such a huge influence on the organization and on the culture.

So it goes the leaders and it drags the culture down. Absolutely. Absolutely. So I think it's, it goes beyond just leadership. It's about the culture. Well, they're inextricably linked, right? Absolutely. The leader sets the culture and the leader can, and what I've learned as I've been studying police forces and policing is the there's in general again it's not a rule but but there's too much lack of psychological safety and trust amongst amongst definitely from rank and file to leadership correct and again we're not talking about you know when there's a call for help this if somebody's in danger there's a call for help everybody rushes in because there's a shared danger yes and that that that safety is is taken care of yes but we're talking about just the daily job

And the willingness for somebody to say, you said, it's hard to say I'm struggling or I just saw a dead kid. Can I have 10 minutes please? You know, that that psychological safety, that psychological protection is, is we need more of it. Yes, we don't build psychological safety into our cultures. So I've been. Of all the places we should be built. Of all the places where we need to have it, right? So this is my 28th year in this profession, three years as a professional staffer in

in 25 years as sworn officer. It wasn't until 2015 that I felt comfortable enough to cry in front of people. So one of my colleagues was killed in the line of duty. And I remember showing up to work that day, an absolute wreck. And I was like, there's no way I'm going to get through this briefing today without crying. And then I thought, well, why shouldn't I be able to cry? Like, a man was killed last night on the streets protecting this community. Why should I be afraid to cry in front of people. And I was a lieutenant at the time, so I was pretty high ranking. And that was the first time I allowed myself to cry in front of my coworkers. How sad is that? And what was the response? Everyone else was crying too. Everyone was a wreck. Everyone was so emotional. And I think it

created a safe space for them to express that. And I didn't realize until that moment that it was okay that I could let my wall down a little bit and be more vulnerable. That's another thing that we don't build into our culture is that it's okay to be vulnerable because vulnerability, people mistake it as a sign of weakness. I think it's a superpower. What happened to the culture of that police force after everybody cried? I think it changed a lot of relationships. For the better, I think people had a different level of respect for each other. I think it actually humanized us amongst each other, which think about how weird that is, right? These are people that I spend 12 hours a day with and I don't I can't say that we all treat each other like human beings right

we were not necessarily professional with each other kind of rude very cynical and I think it made people pause and go wait a minute your life is in my hands right my life is in your hands when we're out on the street when we're fighting crime together so why behind these four walls to we treat each other like shit. This raises a very big question, which is the general public is asking for the police to see us as human beings, regardless of what's happening. How impossible is that if cops can't even see each other as human beings? Yeah, it's impossible, right?

I mean, I'm not surprised that we have the issues that we have in society, right? Now, granted, I don't want this to sound like this is a cop bashing moment because clearly I would never do that. I know you would never do that either. But we have some work to do, right? We need to work on ourselves. But I'm not surprised that we've seen excessive force cases, that we've seen cops in trouble where they're committing crimes

and they're doing illegal things because our culture is so broken on the inside. Now, this isn't true of every organization. Of course not. Of course not. I've seen some organizations that have relatively healthy cultures. But overall. As a profession. As a profession, I think we have so much more work to you.

As a profession, the balance is off. The balance is so off. I don't think people realize, I don't think the general public recognizes how difficult and how complex this problem is. You know, the solution I think we've already talked about, which is it's about teaching leaders, grooming leaders to be better leaders, to learn those human skills that leaders need, right? Not just the technical skills. Yes. And then creating cultures in which people have a sense of psychological safety to ask for help, admit mistakes, say I'm exhausted, cry, feel like they can be a human. being, be seen as a human being, all of which has ripple effects that make them much better

capable of dealing with the stresses and strains of the job. Correct. Like, the solution is simple, not easy, but the solution is, I think, we understand what it is. And if we look at the policing agencies that have had scandals and excessive forces, almost always, it's not an anomaly, almost always it's the result of quite a broken culture. Absolutely. I mean, I hate to bring it up. Well, I don't actually.

you know, if we go back and look at Derek Chauvin, you know, who killed George Floyd, you know, here is a cop with 10 years of excessive force complaints against him, who was the training officer that day. How does someone with 10 years of complaints against them get chosen as a training officer is mind-blowing? But my point is it was a powder keg waiting to blow. Yes. You know, it was like the signs were there. The signs were there.

And it's like it was just a matter of time before Chauvin did something. Yes. Right. So the solution we are aware of. corporate solutions are usually the same thing. I don't think people recognize that there's no head of police in America where the head of, you know, in the UK there's a head of police. They can say, hey, we're doing this program because the police force needs it.

And one person makes a decision and it filters across an entire nation. That doesn't exist in the United States. No. We have 18,000 individual policing agencies with different cultures. With different cultures. Different sizes of which the vast majority, I can't remember the number of like, 80% or something are fewer than 100 cops. Correct.

And so like when we look at New York and Chicago, New York is 44,000 cops, they have their own challenges, their own issues. Most policing is local, small, and fewer than 25 cops, which have very different cultures. And so it raises the fascinating question, which is how do we bring the solution,

which we know what it is, which is better training for leaders, stronger corporate cultures, bringing psychological safety when it's 18,000 unique different organizations. I'm sorry, I'm laughing because if I knew the answer to that, Simon, I wouldn't be here right now. I'd be on a yacht somewhere. Fair, fair.

I mean, I can say we have to start somewhere, though, and talking about it, I think, is crucial to figuring out where to go. And legislation, though, helpful, isn't going to fix the problem. No. It has to be from the inside out. Police have to raise their hands and say, we choose to go through this because it's important to us. And we and society will benefit.

Yes. And I think, you know, we talked a minute ago about that the culture is set from the top, right? The leader sets the tone for the culture of the organization. That is correct. However, it's up to the people that work with that leader to make sure that culture sticks. Right. So I consider all day, Simon, and say, you know, we need to be more compassionate and vulnerable and, you know, all these things.

But if the people underneath me don't believe that, nothing is ever going to change. That's where the sticking point is. That's why it's hard for us to turn that ship around. We also don't have necessarily standard operating procedures across every organization or every state. And, you know, it's interesting sitting here talking to you, Simon. I've never really put it in this perspective.

And now I'm going to have to dig deeper, like you were saying, because how can we get on the same page? I don't know. I don't know how we get on the same page. Right. Let's go deeper. I had this sort of realization as I was getting ready to talk to you that crime and police are deeply emotional for a lot of people. Yes. Right? Yes. And statistics mean absolutely nothing. Right? And so, for example, let's just take it Washington, D.C. right now. The narrative is it's crime-ridden. The statistics are violent crime is actually way down. And it's not a question to agree or disagree. What I realize is those are two different statements and there have nothing to do with each other. Yes.

Because if you've been the victim of a crime or there's been a crime adjacent to you, it's crime written. Yes. And, you know, it doesn't matter if the statistics come out that burglaries are at an all-time low. Right. If you're a victim up, you're like, no. The police are doing, The police are doing an amazing job. The burglary is an all-time low. Yes. If there was a burglary, forget you, if there was a burglary on your block, everyone on that block believes that crime is out of control.

That's right. And if you are the victim, now you absolutely believe that crime is out of control, and you will stop at nothing and you will demand the police do whatever they can. You don't care how aggressive their effort has to be because fear trumps everything. Yes. And protection of me and my family trumps everything. And for people who have been on the wrong side of cops or if it's political, they have the same anger towards that uniform and that badge, regardless of who's wearing it, regardless of the

health of your corporate culture, regardless of how good or bad your cops are, it is the statistics and the explanations be damned, whether it's crime or whether it's the cop. It's a deeply, deeply emotional thing. And usually when things are deeply emotional, we want them resolved immediately. I want crime stopped now. I don't care what you have to do. Stop it now. And conversely, I want the police to get their shit together.

I don't care what it takes. I don't care much pressure. Do it now. The problem is both of those things take time and both of them are imperfect and messy and you'll never get to zero or perfect. Very messy. So let's take your agency. How would your cops, because they've worked at other agencies, I believe. Some of them. Some have come in and some have come back and some have left.

Yes. How would they rate the culture at your agency compared to other places they've worked? Interesting. I had this conversation recently, actually. One of the cops said to me, people who are homegrown and have only worked here and have never worked anywhere else don't realize that the grass isn't always greener. So I think overall there's a level of satisfaction with the policing culture. So the ones that come from the outside recognize it's pretty good. The one that have only worked there.

Sometimes they don't see it that way. Not always. Right, right. Some of them are very happy. Sometimes they don't see it that way, right? I swear to you, it's all about your mindset, right? I mean, if you focus strictly on negativity and what's wrong with everything,

then you're never going to see what's right. with anything. Yeah. Right. You know, I've been to five different police agencies. I've seen and been involved in so many different cultures, two times as a police chief.

Each organization is vastly different. But I think people find a level of happiness and satisfaction when they choose to come to work every day and be positive. Now, that's not always easy. I went through a solid 12 years of my career where I was completely miserable. I worked in a very toxic environment.

to the point where my safety was impacted. Like literally my physical safety was impacted. I worked on a team of individuals that would not cover me on traffic stops. They would not come to my calls because they hated me so much. They would not talk to me. It was a miserable existence.

But what the problem with that was, Simon, is that I allowed that to get to me where I focused on that every single day I would come to work. I was terrified to go to work because I didn't know what was going to happen inside the police department. And then I realized I was allowing those people I have power over me.

And so I changed my mindset. And I realized those people are going to be who they are. I can't change them. I don't want to change them. I'll let them be miserable over in the corner. I'm going to be over here happy living my life. And coming to work every day and going, I'm going to be positive and I'm going to try to make an impact on someone's life today is what changed my mindset.

So when we talk about culture, when we talk about whether or not people are happy in the environment that I work in, I think it's all in what you make it. This job is really hard. It's hard as a police chief. It's hard as a police officer. It's hard as a sergeant. Everything in between. But what keeps me going is seriously the ability to positively impact our communities and the profession.

I don't, this is going to sound corny. I don't do this job for me. I don't do this job because I like these stars or because I'm looking for some sort of fame or something. I do it because I love serving people. I love serving the people that I don't. I work with. I love being an inspiration to them, but I love being that in the community. One day, my granddaughter, her name's London, she's four years old. When she was three, she saw me in my uniform for the first time. And I'll never forget, her little face just lit up. And she was

like, you're the police? And I almost lost it. I almost started bawling because it made me so proud in that moment to be a police officer. This is why we do what we do, Simon. We do it because we really do want to make a difference. I know we hear that all the time from our police officers. Like, oh, I just want to make a difference in the community. But it's legit. Like, think about the impact

that we have negative and positive in our communities. This is what just keeps me going is because I want us to be the best that we can be. What was the first change you made when you became a police chief? You'd seen the good, you'd seen the bad,

you'd seen the healthy, you'd seen the unhealthy, you've seen mental health not treated seriously. and other policing agencies, you realize the importance of that, how it taxes on the human being that wears the uniform. And if you want to fix policing in the community, fix the human beings wearing the uniform who are dealing with the stress first or help them. What was one of the first things you've got to do that you're like, if I'm ever police chief, I'm doing this and you did it? I think showing them a side of leadership that they weren't used to. So being authentic. What were they

used to? What were they used to? They were used to basically do as I say, right? Like, here are the rules. this is what you're going to do, go do it. There was no emotion. There was no humanity behind it. 28 years ago when I started, it was very much a warrior mindset, right? It was get out there, make a rest, take people to jail, go hit the next call, right? There was no mental health. There was no wellness.

There was nothing. There was no guardian mindset. So in this profession, traditionally, we've seen leaders that are kind of hard-ass I guess and just rule with an iron fist almost. And that's not true of everywhere. So I don't want it to sound like I'm putting a blanket statement out there. But there was no emotion ever shown. There was no realness.

There was zero, zero authenticity. Let me be cynical. Yes. If someone or community is reacting to the emotion of fear and crime, whether it's statistically accurate or not is irrelevant, right? And then I hear that the police chief was worried about, you know, authenticity and vulnerability. And you show me another police chief who's like, follow it was get out there, make arrests. I'm like, I take that guy.

And it's like, like, how do we reconcile the pressures from mayors, from city managers, from community with the need to the seeming, the seeming paradoxical need? Yes. And I'm so glad that you asked me that. That's a great question because there has to be balance. So absolutely, I expect for my cops to go out there and take bad guys off the street. That's first and foremost, right? I expect for us to keep our community safe. However, the balance comes where having the space where you can be vulnerable, having that confidence to know that I can break down. and cry in front of you and that I'm a human and it's okay to deal with that emotion. That translates into I'm out on the street dealing with someone who, I don't know, just robbed a convenience store. Well, does that mean that I need to be a hard ass and be rough with that person and use excessive force or treat them like garbage? Absolutely not.

I remember I arrested this robbery suspect. He robbed a gas station. And I remember just being so happy. I was like, hell yeah, we got him in custody. we found his gun. He ditched it right before I pulled him over. And I'll never forget this. He said, I did it because my grandmother needs medicine. It's going to make me cry. It made me feel so bad because he was so desperate that he had to go rob a gas station to get money to buy his grandmother's medication. So when I talk about humanity and authenticity and being vulnerable, well, if we don't have

compassion for our fellow man, if we don't have compassion for each other, then that translates to me to having a negative attitude and having a negative relationship with our communities. But if we start on the inside and build that safe space and encourage our officers to be authentic, and look, I'm, I'm, tearing up talking to you right now, I just feel like it makes us more whole as humans and allows us the ability to show compassion when we're dealing with people out on the street fighting crime. I think you're dealing, this is a perfect example. I think you are the embodiment of what we're doing at the curve, our organization, which is one of the things we realized is that, you know, purpose is a thing.

And companies have to ask themselves, why do we exist? You know? And we realize as a profession, policing, the question is, why do we need police? Like, what's the purpose of police? And most people say, to enforce the law or to catch bad guys, which is true. Absolutely. And it's one of the things police do for sure, but it's not everything police do. No, not at all.

And it might be a significant thing that police do. One of the most important things police do, but it's still not everything. And we're defining an entire profession by one of the capabilities. You know, and none of us want to be defined by our work. Like, nobody wants to be told your identity, like your identity as a human being. Yes. Is you a lawyer? Right?

Right. Well, no, that's something I do. Right. It's not who I am. And cops. had no sense of purpose other than many of the functions. Yes, the technical side. The technical side.

They even call themselves, you even call yourselves law enforcement. That's just one thing that police do. Correct. So the whole identity was to one thing. And so we recognize that police need an identity, and we asked ourselves, why do we need police? And the result we came to, the answer we came to was to protect the vulnerable from harm. To protect the vulnerable from harm.

That's why we need police. And when there is a crime committed and there are victims of that crime, then we want to protect the victims by getting bad guys off the street. Absolutely. That gas station burglary, when it's happening, you're hell-bent. Absolutely. There's not a lot of compassion. Let's be crystal clear.

The compassion came after he was in handcuffs. Not before. That's a very important distinction. Absolutely. Thank you for making that distinction. Right? Absolutely. It's very important distinction.

I had a job to do and I went out into it. Protecting the vulnerable for harm as victims, I'm going to protect the victims from this bad person. Yes. Once the bad person is in handcuffs, they are now the vulnerable. Yes, that is correct. Because they are no longer a threat to themselves or anyone else. And I think to understand that to go into life or to choose to put on a uniform to protect the vulnerable from harm, which is flexible and relative can change in a moment. Yes.

And that should be the identity of the person. So though you can enforce the law and you can enforce it with impunity when necessary, at the end of the day, that's not who you are. You're somebody who wakes up in the morning to protect the vulnerable from harm. And sometimes those vulnerable are your own officers. Yes. And I go back to the story of you bringing an eight-year-old, you know, after having died in a fire to the hospital,

and your chief couldn't understand that in that moment you were the vulnerable one. Obviously, we know the family's vulnerable and you're going to do your best to be there for them. but in that moment that you were the vulnerable one. Yes. And he didn't have the leadership human skills to know how to hold space for you. Don't fault him for it. He wasn't trained. No.

And it wasn't part of the culture. Not a bad guy. It wasn't part of policing culture. Wasn't part of policing culture. No. And so the best he could do was, well, get back out there, buck up. Hit the street. You know?

And I think that's where I think a lot of people get this wrong, which is people think you're either on the side of the the poor guy who is robbing with a gun, armed, armed burglary because his grandmother needs drugs, or you can only see the cops. And the answer is it's all together. It's a mess. It's society and it's humanity and it's messy and it's all those things. And you can be pro-police and pro-victim at the same time. And you can be wanting to protect the vulnerable from harm and recognizing that that's a relative scale.

And what people, I think, also fail to recognize is this is finite and infinite games, which is the finite game is this beginning and middle and end. Get that guy off the street. Finite. The infinite game is how do I create a culture of policing that is healthy for human beings to work in this culture, that it's those healthier human beings who feel psychological safety and understand they can, if they're feeling sad or angry, they can express it in a healthy way at work without. being vilified or hurting their promotability because of it. Correct. That ultimately over the course of time makes for a more effective police force. Yes. And exactly what you just said is when you asked me the question, I want to close a loop on this, what was the first thing that I did as a police chief was creating that kind of environment and that kind of culture.

And how that translated was in the community that I served at that time, people would come up to me all the time. Oh, I just love your officers. They're so professional. they're so kind, they're so caring. You know, they helped me with this or they help me with that. That's where the bridge is, right? Is when it starts internally and you create that environment, that positive environment,

I think that it makes our officers have a more healthy relationship with our community. I'm kind of laughing at your cynical question earlier about, well, you know, if I had to pick you, you miss vulnerable over this person, you know, go out and arrest people. You pick the guy that say, let's arrest them. everyone. Don't get me wrong, Simon. I'm not here today because I'm just, you know, this mushy teddy bear. Right. You don't make, you don't make chief, you don't make chief for unicorns and rainbows. Absolutely. Right. I realize that we have a job to do and it's a tough job and it's an ugly job sometimes and we have to do it. Police work ain't pretty. At the same time, that doesn't mean that

we have to be savages. And it's human beings doing that job. Correct. And human beings in the receiving end of that job. Absolutely. But human beings. Human beings. Human beings. Human beings. serving human beings. Yes. Human beings that have the same problems that people outside this uniform have as well. Yeah. I think that's another part

that people don't quite understand. I'm not superhuman because I have this uniform on. I had the same issues and problems that everyone else does. Yeah. Right. Which is why alcoholism and suicide

are higher than the national averages in policing because the coping mechanisms aren't there. If you can't feel psychologically safe amongst your own who understand the stresses and who aren't politicizing you and aren't screaming and yelling at, at you? If you can't feel safe in that safe place, well, there are where can you feel safe?

And the answers you don't, which is why you turn to alcohol or in the worst cases, suicide is the best solution. Yes. Measuring good corporate culture and policing is very hard. Not different to companies. The reason we over-index on measuring money in companies is because it's easy to measure. And the mushy-mushy-mushy stuff that people think is mushy-mushy-mushy, but the soft skills, the human skills is harder to measure. But everybody knows, and I've made a career, on making a point, which is the companies that focus on human skills over time will actually outperform the traditional metrics. Policing, the reason we over-index on measuring arrests and tickets, it's easy to measure.

Exactly. And so a good cop traditionally in the past is one who writes a lot of tickets and makes a lot of arrests, not because they actually are better. It's just easier to measure. It's easier. So how do you measure a good cop and how do you de-emphasize simply tickets and arrests to create a healthier, better culture. That, over time, do support the metrics that we are interested in.

Like, this is a safe community to live in, crime is low, et cetera. I think there's a reason why police officers have discretion, right? We have the letter of the law and the spirit of the law. So an officer can make a choice under a lot of circumstances on whether or not to arrest someone in that moment, depending on what the crime is. To me, what defines a good officer is someone that can find that balance between being a warrior and being a guardian, right? I mean, those are the best terms I can think of to describe that.

So let's say an officer is out writing people tickets because people are speeding around a school zone and we don't want our kids to get hit going to and from school. Well, an officer pulls someone over who has expired registration and just got a new job and he's late to work. This literally happened the other day. I was out on patrol. So this is why I'm using this story. He had expired registration. He was late to work. He ran a stop sign and he was struggling in life. It would have been easy to just give him a ticket for the expired registration and for blowing the stop sign. He literally said to me, you know, I just got this job. I've only been there for a week. Please don't tow my car. This is my only car. I'm behind in all my bills. I'm two months behind in my rent. Can you

give me a break. And I had a nice long conversation with this young man. And at the end, we gave him a registration ticket because you have to have your car. Your car has to be registered. But we didn't tow it. And we let him get off to work. That's what makes a balanced police officer. Someone that can do their job because you have to do your job. But they can balance it with what makes sense in this situation, right? Are we going to help this man by towing his car? No, because he's going to lose his job. He's going to get further. Yeah, it's going to compound and turn into so many more problems. And that's what we want.

We want a cop who does have discretion. Yes. Because otherwise none of us would ever get a break. Yeah, exactly. Then I don't know if that's fair. They can't have a break, would I want a break. Yeah, exactly. I think is most people's overwhelming mentality.

I think what I'm learning from you, and I think that this is what makes these conversations difficult. Even as people are listening to this, I'm sure people are having visceral responses. They're either angrily agreeing or disagreeing with many of the things you and I have said. They're either for us, against us, not sure what to make of it. And I think that perfectly captures what this job is, which is, it is highly nuanced, highly complex. And it is the most human of jobs, you know?

where it is human beings who show up to do a job that is for and about human beings. It's people at their best, at their worst, in good moods, in bad moods, on drugs, you know, and the cops are in good moods and bad moods. Oh, of course. And the cops are at their best and the cops are at their worst. And the more that police chiefs can do to create an environment in which more days than not police will have the right mindset, be having a good day, be preparing. for the stresses they're about to face and the nuances and the uncertainty and the difficulties,

more often than not, it will go right. I agree. And if they aren't, that they come to work and say, I wouldn't trust me today. Yes. You know? I need help today. I think I need. I just had a blowout fight with my spouse.

I am not in a good mood. I got in trouble yesterday. I got spit on yesterday. Today, today's not a good day for me. Can I drive a desk today? You know? I had an officer. Without fear that that will sideline their career.

Absolutely. Or create stigma inside the... Because let's be real, there's a possibility of that happening, right? I had an officer do that to me when I was a sergeant. I was in the back park in the police department and I was about to drive out. And he came up to me and he's like, you know, I'm really struggling today. And I was like, oh, what's going on? And he's like, you know, it's...

I'm missing time with my kids right now. I'm going through a divorce and it was supposed to be my weekend and I just, I'd really like to be with my kids. I said, okay, well, then go home. Yeah. Now, that's not an everyday thing, right? Of course not. We have to balance, you know, how many people do we have on the team today because we need everybody. But in that moment, I could tell he really needed to not be at work. And I think we're in a place now, Simon, where it's okay to come to work and say, I don't know, today's not going to be a good day for me.

You're talking about things that are fairly normal in the corporate world. Not normal. You know? Like in the corporate world, if somebody comes to work and be like, I'm just like, it's bad. It's a bad day for me today. Either we say, don't worry. Like, we'll cover for you. We say take a day off.

Like, that's what we do for each other in a good corporate culture. And I don't think people appreciate that for some reason we don't want policing cultures to be the same good, strong corporate cultures as any other company that we work for. People think that you're soft if you are being vulnerable or if you come to work and say, I just can't do it today. You know what I do to avoid the word? What? I talk about the behavior, especially in environments where the word vulnerability is going to be more of a trigger than the stuff.

I hate that word trigger. Fair point. Fair point. That's a different discussion. You know, where that word alone has all the liability and they can't get off that word. I just talk about the stuff that I want them to do. I avoid saying, we need to be in a culture where we can be vulnerable. I avoid that.

I say, we need to be in a culture where we can admit mistakes to each other, where we can ask for help for each other. We need to be in a culture where we can take total accountability for our words and our actions. Having an off day means you ask for help. It doesn't mean you... Doesn't mean you're weak. Right out yourself. Also, I would, if I can offer one more recommendation.

Yes. When you say, saying you're struggling doesn't mean you're weak. The problem with that language is the human brain cannot comprehend the negative. Okay, I can prove it to you. Ready? Ready? Don't think of the color yellow. Too late.

So when we say to somebody, you know, asking for help doesn't make you weak. All people can hear is it makes me weak. Right? And so what we have to say to people is asking for help is the most courageous thing you can do. I love that. And that will destigmatize the things we don't. don't want to do, so good intentions with the wrong communication get the wrong results. So I avoid the word vulnerability in cultures where I know that that word is a liability.

And policing, it's a liability. It's like a bad word. How do you marry all the things you're doing and that you're attempting to do in your agency to prove what the future policing could look like with crime statistics? So if a chief is being judged solely by the finite metric of a crime stat, you know, all this beautiful human policing be damned, I'm going to drive arrests and tickets because, damn it, that's what keeps me employed. But, Simon, if we are driving arrests and tickets and our crime stats are fantastic and

crime is down, you know, 30%, but what if the community doesn't trust us? How do we measure that? If the community doesn't trust us, it doesn't matter what the crime stats are saying. Look at Ferguson. Ferguson, they had a system of government where they made their revenue based on tickets, right? And when people couldn't pay their tickets, then their tickets turned into warrants, right? And so people had to pay all this money, all these fines to get their tickets cleared. And that was what the city government ran off.

Do you think the people in Ferguson trusted their police department, right? They were revenue generators. And this is not a color income thing. No, no. Anybody on the receiving end of a ticket. Absolutely. You know, we can talk about data. We can talk about stats.

I think there is some relevance and some importance in that, right? But at the end of the day, if the people that we serve don't trust us, then nothing else matters. How do we measure trust in the police force? Because I agree with you. It's both. Money matters in a company. Yes. But it matters in addition to, not instead of.

Yes, exactly. In addition to. Correct. So if we agree. that the stats matter also, but if we don't have another measurement for the thing that does matter, then all we're going to do is focus on the one.

How do we measure trust, especially when it's so highly emotional? It is very emotional. It's very personal. You know, stats be damned, as we said before. Yeah, we measure that by several factors. Let's say, does our city have civilian oversight? Yes, we have civilian oversight in San Leandro.

Why? our community didn't trust us, right? So, but that's not a negative thing. I actually think civilian oversight is actually good and I know people are going to hate me for saying that, but I think there's some value in it. I also think when a police department has a community event, does the community show up? So for instance, we just celebrated National Night Out. That's a nationwide community event where people have block parties and the police department shows up and we we break break with people, we talk to our community members, we take pictures. It is literally my favorite night of the year because I get to meet so many people in the community.

And the feedback that we get from our community members is phenomenal. To me, that shows that they trust us, right? They're not like flipping us off when we're driving by. They're inviting us to come into their homes and eat food with them. How powerful is that? If you don't trust someone, you don't allow them into your house, let alone you're not going to cook them. And so I think it's those little things, those community events, those opportunities that we have to really, like, highlight who we are as human beings. That's how we gain trust and that's how we know that our community trust is. The challenge you have from a metric standpoint is very similar to any corporate environment,

which is how do you measure the qualitative and the quantitative? The quantitative is easy. Yes. Money arrests. Like it's easy. It's easy. Right? But we all know that there's qualitative components to coming to work as well,

which is how do I feel at work and how do other people feel work? How do my customers feel? I mean, at the end of the day, the people you serve are your customers. Yes. Right? I mean, even the criminals are customers, quite honestly. They really are. I mean, they're on the receiving end of your product.

When they want to be or not. Right. But it's true. And customer service means you can be arrested for the crime you've committed, but if somebody's not resisting, there's no reason to use any more force than is required at the time than is necessary. It's very, you know. And the law specifically states that.

Robert Peel, you know, the Peelian principles that go back to the 1800s, you know, are as relevant today as they were back then, which is you use as much force as necessary for the moment. And I'm not going to say for better or for worse, absolutely for worse. On both sides of the political spectrum, whether you're, you know, viscerally for or viscerally against cops, I think both sides are missing the point that it's not black and white, that none of this stuff is easy. the messiest job there is. Yes.

Literally the messiest job there is. Yes. I'm not sitting here saying to show compassion to people when you're in a fight with someone. Of course not. Right? What I'm saying is yes, once the handcuffs come on, there's no reason why you can't have a conversation

with someone and explain, okay, this is what's happening, this is what we're going to do. That goes so far with people. And when you talk about dealing with people before they're in handcuffs, I want to tell you one more quick story. I remember I was the sergeant in the gang unit and I stopped this guy.

I knew that this guy was armed. He was always armed. He was a hit man. And I had had conversations with him in the past, so he knew who I was. And I remember I stopped him and his friend one day. And it was like, I don't know, it was dark. It was like one in the morning or something. And so I'm standing there talking to him.

I'm waiting for my cover to show up. And I just asked him, hey, what are you doing? What are you up to? Are you looking for a job? Like, you know, I can give you some websites for you to go online and look for a job. and I'm just talking to him for like 10 minutes while I'm waiting for my backup. So you're just trying to, you're providing time. I'm just being cool.

Because you don't want to engage by yourself. It's too dangerous. Exactly. There's two of them and one of me. And you're suspected that they're probably armed. And I knew that he had a gun on him. And I knew that he was a violent dude. And so we just had the best conversation, Simon.

And then my cover finally showed up. We put him in handcuffs. And sure enough, of course, he had loaded 45 in his waistband. Yeah. His friend also had a gun on him. So if those two guys wanted to murder me that night, they absolutely could have. But because I treated them like human beings

and I took the opportunity to build a report with them and talk to them, they spared me, right? And that's more what I'm saying is that you should never compromise your officer safety, but there are opportunities for us to just be human beings.

And I cannot help but stress that this is coming from somebody who's a 28-year veteran of the police force. You are the chief of a sizable agent You have seen it all, done it all, tried it all. You've experimented with being rough and officious and you do what I say. I'm the po-po. You do as you're told, you know.

Like, you've experimented with all of those things because you were a rookie. Oh, yeah. And the rookies, try it all. Oh, yes. Right? And you have learned over the course of a career that the safer, more effective thing to do was you have chosen humanity to be, not because, you're into unicorns and rainbows and, you know, it's all about, you know, crystals.

Yes. You know, you've chosen humanity because you have learned, you are in uniform. Yes. You have learned that it is better, that it works better. It works so effectively. I spent 10 years as a hostage negotiator, and it was some of the most incredible and rewarding work that I've ever done. You want to talk about talking to people on literally the worst day of their lives,

where they have nothing to live for and they want to hurt themselves or someone else. it's very stressful. It's a very demanding and challenging environment to work in. But every time I found that just me being Angela and not being Officer Averett really went a long way. And it helped to calm the situation. It helped to diffuse the situation. What I've learned from you today is that the real value of creating that really strong corporate culture inside a policing agency where cops can say I made a mistake or ask for help or say I'm struggling. without any fear of humiliation or retribution, that the real value of that is that their ability to use their discretion

goes up in the marketplace. Yes. When they're in the field. And if the corporate culture is, my way or the highway, if the corporate culture is lack of psychological safety for the rank and file, nobody trusts the leadership.

If the corporate culture is statistics, statistics, you do as I say, then what happens is when they go out in the field, they're going to treat the general public the same way, that it's always going to be officious, that it's always going to be, you shut up and sit down because I'm the authority and you do, as I say,

their ability to have discretion goes down when they work in that kind of corporate culture because the ability to treat or see someone or try something different or new, that ability to use your wisdom and your experience. Life experience. Your life experience. Because a rookie is very different than a veteran, right?

Yes. You don't want to get pulled over by a rookie. You're getting a ticket, right? Well, if they're training, yes, most likely. But the point is, in a healthy corporate culture, the wisdom and experience of that police officer is more likely to get used in the field. They know.

They know. And I think that, to me, is what I've learned here. That is one of the great values, which is you know when to turn it on and when to turn it off. You know from experience when it's probably going to work and when it's probably not going to work. And though you will make mistakes on one side or the other, for the most part, you're going to have more success than not.

And you've got 28 years to prove it. To prove it. Yes. And that's what I've learned here, which is if we want our cops to show discretion and use discretion, if we want our cops to make good decisions on how to diffuse a situation or make a situation go better than it could, then if you have a healthy corporate culture,

that result is more likely to happen. And so we have to support the teaching of leadership to police and police leaders. We have to help police who believe that change can happen on what a good corporate culture looks like and how to build it if we want our police to use their discretion wisely in the marketplace. That's what I've learned. I agree. Thank you for that. I work or have worked with some of the most courageous, incredible human beings on earth that are police officers.

And so I just want to make sure I close with that statement that the majority of our police officers are phenomenal human beings. They need support from people like me, the police chiefs, from people like you in our community, from organizations like the curve. they need our support. But I couldn't be more proud to be a police officer, and I am so proud to work with the people that I work with. So it was important for me to say that. Thank you. You also know that I'm cynical whenever police chiefs come out,

after a scandal or after a violent, excessive violence, and the press conference usually goes something like this, which is most cops are good cops. And I understand that's usually for the local audience. But the reality is, yes, most people, cops are good cops, and I want the good cops to stand up and say, we want better for our profession, and the bad cops are ruining it for the rest of us. And I think the good cops, the most cops are good cops, there's an accountability. I want most cops that are good cops to demand

better leadership training for themselves and their bosses. I want the good cops, the most cops who are good cops, to demand that they get to come to work and feel psychologically safe and work in an environment where they can say I made a mistake, I need help, I think I need more training, I am not having a good day. I want those most cops who are good cops to demand all the things that are necessary to raise the bar. And maybe they will now. And maybe they will. I have a couple extra questions for you. Law enforcement is very hierarchical. What advice do you have for young people not used to climbing the ladder? Build, I would say build your network. It took me a very long time to realized that. I was very siloed, right? I worked at this one police department. These are the people

that I worked with and I didn't care about nobody else. Right. And then one day I was like, who do I call when I'm in trouble? Right. I'm not going to talk to my beat partner because maybe the beat partner is the problem. And so I started sending myself to different training classes. I started meeting people and now I have this amazing, incredible network of people when I'm struggling or I have a problem. I'm like, hey, I need some help right now. Right. I love that I have that. I want that for everyone. So as someone who wants to climb the ranks who is maybe new in this profession, build your network. Don't be afraid to send yourself to training. And I think don't be afraid to speak up for yourself, right? Now, don't be an organizational terrorist. So don't be that guy

that wants to be negative, just to be negative. But when things aren't right, say they're not right. Like don't engage in that group think you might be an outlier. You might be a little bit of an outcast at first, but always stand up for yourself. That would be my advice. That's good advice. Any life hacks that you have that have just made work or just life a little easier? Any little life hacks that you can share that I can learn from you? I think my life hacks are really boring, honestly. I'm boring. Like I love taking naps. Naps are incredible. And I can hear my husband in the background laughing. I love taking naps. They recharge me. It helps me to like a minute power nap kind of thing. Well, I'd say 30 minutes at least. I mean, I know that

they're supposed to be like a window or like like like anything more than that like you Anything more than that is like you're going to bed. Yeah. I think having naps is phenomenal. I love watching TV. TV is so mindless for me, and it just helps me to escape, right? I love hiking, going on walks. Like, nothing that I'm doing is anything earth-shattering, but I will say the one thing that I do love, love is cryotherapy.

I know, and I hate being cold, which is hilarious, but cryotherapy, oh, it helps me to sleep great. it gives me mental clarity and that's not nonsense and I'm not working for a cryotherapy company but it's the one indulgence that I think I have that I just I love so what I'm hearing is your life hacks are give yourself some grace do something mindless like something that allows you to be present disconnect whether it's a nap or a hike or watching TV and be very very very very cold very cold how long can you stay in there for it I do like three minutes which is a long time mitten's in a hat mittens a hat but for me the way that I get through it is I dance and I know I look like a crazy person so you're standing in a cryo chamber dancing yes dancing definitely ass off and I

sweat every time definitely look like a crazy person I'm definitely crazy Angela thank you so much for coming in thank you so I appreciate it this is amazing thank you a bit of optimism is a production of the optimism company lovingly produced by our team Lindsay Garbenius Phoebe Bradford and Devin Johnson subscribe wherever you enjoy into podcasts, and if you want even more cool stuff, visit simonc.com. Thanks for listening. Take care of yourself. Take care of each other.