A Bit of Optimism - Beautiful Conflict with the poet Yung Pueblo

Episode Date: October 3, 2023

How are you? It’s a question we get asked everyday, but we hardly ever answer it honestly.  When Diego Perez — also known under his penname, Yung Pueblo — started asking himself that question and answering honestly, his entire life changed.In this conversation, Diego opens up about his own struggles with addiction and shares hard-earned wisdom about conflict, spirituality, and so much more.This is...A Bit of Optimism.For more of Yung Pueblo's work check out: his new book out today The Way Forwardhttps://yungpueblo.com/ 

How are you feeling? It's such a common question that we ask others that we really don't even care if we get an honest answer anymore. I'm fine, is usually how a lot of people answer. But here's another question. How am I feeling? And that's a question we rarely, if ever, ask ourselves. But that's exactly what Diego Perez did. He asked himself, how am I feeling? And he was so honest with the answer, it transformed his life.

You may know him as Young Pueblo, the poet and author whose books and poetry enlighten us and challenge us to answer that question, how am I feeling honestly? We sat down and had what can only be described as an enlightened conversation. We talked about beautiful conflict in our relationships and cosmetic spirituality, all of it grounded in being able to answer that question, how am I honestly? This is a bit of optimism. Were you a poet before Young Pueblo? No, absolutely not. Did you know you could write? No, certainly not. No, it was, I think, accidental. You know, it's a long story, but when I was so heavy into just constantly intoxicating

myself as a means to get away from my emotions, it reached a breaking point where like my body was like, we cannot, we cannot do this anymore. It's either stop or die. Those are your options. Literally stop or die. Like there was one particular night in the summer of 2011 where I hit that rock bottom point. My heart felt like it was going to explode. I felt totally, it was literally just on the floor, like on the floor for like two and a half, three hours feeling like I'm at the edge of life. And that moment I was like, if I keep going, I'm just, I'm going to die. Like my heart can't take it anymore. So from that moment, I started, you know, reshaping my life, changing my pattern, started telling myself the

truth, which was like the crux of all of the personal transformation that started happening, because what got me there was lying. I didn't want to admit to myself that- Like I can stop at any time. Yeah, I could stop at any time, but also that the reason that I'm doing this is because I don't feel good. You know, that there's all this sadness and anxiety that I'm not acknowledging. And once I started accepting like, oh, there's something here that I need to look at, that's when my life started turning around. But through that process, and then when I started meditating, my mind slowly became lighter and then creativity started bubbling up that wasn't there before. The drugs were simply to help alleviate or numb

just personal pain. Yeah, personal pain. I think it was a long journey to being okay and actually settling in the United States. So I was born in Ecuador and my family, we moved here when I was about four years old and we just experienced the worst poverty. Like it was like, it was so rough for such a long time. And my mom, she worked cleaning houses. My dad worked in a supermarket. So we were really stuck in the like classic American poverty trap. So what I saw was like a lot of, I saw them fighting, trying to figure out like, how are they going to pay the rent? You know, they had no one else to share their stress with. And, um, you know, my brother and I would just, we would watch the, you know, my parents arguing, being so loud with

each other. And I think it created this sense of like scarcity. Like I knew things were scarce and it caused so much anxiety in me, so much sadness. And I never had a way to process that. And when I got to college, you know, just introduced, like there were just so many drugs available, introduced to them. And then I was like, oh, actually this can help me just totally run away from whatever's happening inside of me. This works. Immediately, yeah.

It's a strategy. Yeah, running for the sensation of pleasure until the loudness of everything that was happening could no longer be ignored but your path i mean was there an intervention did somebody i mean i know people who've overcome drug addictions i don't know anybody who overcomes it by saying you know what meditation you know they may get to that eventually. Yeah. But it's not like my heart's going to explode. Like I'm so curious. Yeah, that's funny. How you go from lying on the floor, my heart's going to explode,

to I think meditation's the thing. Yeah. How did that close that gap for me? So there's literally a year between these two moments. Okay. I think there was the summer of 2011 where my heart was going to explode and the summer of 2012 where I did my first silent 10-day meditation course. In that time, I was fortunate.

I felt like I don't know where the strength came from, but I just knew that I had no other alternative. It was like either change or die. So I was like, I don't want to go out like this. You know, I remember laying on the floor and thinking about my parents and how much they rolled the dice for an opportunity, not even for certainty, for an opportunity at a better, greater life for some like economic mobility. And I was just throwing all that hard work away that they put into us. So part of it was not wanting to let your parents down. Yeah. I thought about them a lot. And it was surprising because like when I was using all the drugs, I was definitely not

thinking about them. Um, so interesting little insight, right? Which is the desire to numb pain is selfish and the root, which is easy. I mean, taking the drugs is relatively easy, you know, you get an instant relief, is ironically selfish. Whereas to do hard work of recovery is actually selfless. Yeah, yeah. It's funny. That the hard work was an act of service. The easy solution was a selfish act.

Oh, totally. And it was funny because in that moment too, I mean, you're highlighting it so well. Like I was thinking about my parents and I started thinking about more so who I was in high school and how I was part of this incredible organization called Boston Youth Organizing Project. And we were just, you know, young people who were teaching other young people how to organize and like the way that you can change your public transportation system or your high school or your city, literally like changing laws, like making material change in the environment that you lived in. And I was like, why am I not like helping people? Like, what am I doing?

And that selflessness, you know, it started slowly waking up. And then I just put, you know, I like put my foot down. I was like, I can't, I can't do any more hard drugs. I put them away. You know, I was still drinking and smoking, but not to the same like intense way that I was before. But what I noticed was like, okay, I need some pillars. Like I need something to lean on. And I basically started examining what was I doing? What was I doing wrong that got me to that point? And I was like, okay, whatever it was, let me do the opposite of it now. So I noticed I was lying to myself and I was like, well, I need to admit that I don't feel good, that I have anxiety and

all the sadness bubbling up. So let me tell myself the truth. And instead of running away from it by rolling up another joint, let me feel it. Let me just sit with it. And this is before I even learned any meditation technique or anything like that. I would, you know, when me feel it. Let me just sit with it. And this is before I even learned any meditation technique or anything like that. I would, you know, when I feel the tension coming up, I was like, okay, let me challenge myself. Let me just sit on my bed for five minutes and just feel it, not doing anything else.

Just accept, like allow yourself to be sad. Just accept it, just feel whatever was there. Cause I couldn't even, you know, I would run so fast from it. There was no even time to even begin to process. And in starting to do the opposite of that, I was like, this is not so bad. This is not as scary as I thought it was. You know, to me, they seem like demons before. And then I was like, yeah, this sucks, but it's not that bad. And I think there are other modern numbing techniques besides drugs oh for sure there are

the common ones that have already been talked about plenty social media addiction cell phone addiction and all the dopamine i mean it's all it's all dopamine but there was one i came across recently which really shocked me which is spirituality and let me let me yeah because right so uh i think spirituality is healthy. I think there's a lot of spirituality that's happening now that isn't real spirituality. It sounds like spirituality, but it's, it's not. And I'll give you the example. Um, somebody I know who speaks in all of the spiritual jargon sounds like they just got back from Burning Man, you know, you know, that sort of over the top, you know, the universe yeah. You know, that sort of over the top. Yeah.

You know, the universe is providing that I can find my mantra so that I can, I mean, who the hell knows. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, and I don't diminish spirituality, but this brand of it is alienating to me. Anyway, I called her up and said, how are you? I haven't talked to you in a while. And she says, I'm going through a really hard time, but I think this is the universe trying to teach me a lesson. And I went, say more, like what's going on? And she sort of went through her social life and her career and just things are kind of not going well, you know, and when it rains, it pours. And I kept saying, boy, that, that sounds hard. And she goes, yes,

but you know, I think that there's a lesson here. I'm supposed to be learning toughness. was yes but you know i think that there's a lesson here i'm supposed to be learning toughness and i was thinking to myself my god this poor girl is lying to herself i said are you sad oh this is a lesson for me i'm like no no just are you sad and she said yes i said okay so be sad i said it sounds like really stressful what you're going through so just there's no it's okay to be sad right there's no lesson and literally the the floodgates opened. This person had never allowed themselves in this recent time to be sad and allow the feelings to just flow through without trying to assign some sort of lesson or meaning as opposed to just allow the feelings to happen. I'm so glad that you're bringing this up

because it's something that I sort of quietly wonder inside of myself. I've never ascribed to like, how can I call it? The only term I can think of is like cosmetic spirituality. It's like well put. You know, you look spiritual. You got a feather in your hat. You know, I'm not trying to, I want to respect people's cultures and everything out there, but it's not for me.

I just keep it. This is how I look. And I realized that I don't need crystals in my pocket. I actually, what I need is in my heart. It's in my awareness. It's in my perception. It's in the way I try to move through life with understanding the law. And like the only law I believe in is the law of cause and effect. That's it. Like I'm never like, I've never used

that lingo for myself. Like, oh, like, you know, the universe is trying to teach me this or something like that. I believe that what you put in is what you get out. And then it's essentially the law of karma. Like, you know, if you do this particular thing, you'll get that result. And oftentimes I think a lot of people, you know, the law of karma just seems really opaque because you try to treat one person really well and then they end up treating you like crap. But then you don't realize that

some random person comes in the future and then do something that's so good for you, but it's not the person that you want it from, right? So I think obviously the universe is something that's so vast and so mysterious, but I really try to keep my spirituality in line with like, let me be kind, let me be gentle, let me put forward good actions, let me be selfless while also making sure that i'm taking care of myself taking care of my family making sure that i'm fulfilling my responsibilities but um you know the the sort of external things that i see in a lot of different like western spirituality like i've never felt comfortable like i've never been to burning man and all that

i'm sure there's so many people probably listening who love burning man and i'm so it's fun i'm so happy it's colorful and bright and fun. Yeah, yeah. But to me, it's like, you know, my time is very full. So if I'm going to take time off, I'm going to go to a silent meditation retreat and just be by myself and do my best. And this is interesting what you're saying, right? So I love this particular technique because it's all about observing reality as it is. because it's all about observing reality as it is,

not how you want it to be, not manipulating it, but how is it arising in this moment? So let me be with it. And all of it is whatever sensation is arising in that moment, you're with it, whether it's an ugly one or a nice one, and you're just observing it objectively. I love your term of cosmetic spirituality because what it does is unfortunately dilutes or diminishes the real stuff. It's like diagnoses of ADHD or being on the spectrum or any of these things, which is there are very real cases.

But when they're so over-diagnosed, it diminishes the real cases because now we roll our eyes at everything that's real. Totally, totally. And ultimately, I think, what's the point? The point is a change in behavior, right? Like, how are you changing your actions? And over time, your actions will help your perception not be so dense. And then there definitely is the aspect of letting go

because that's something that I felt so clearly and why I kept going back to this particular Vipassana tradition that I'm a part of. It's the same tradition that Yuval Noah Harari meditates in and the Goenka tradition. And it's so like, I've never seen anything like it in the world. Like you don't have to pay anything to go there. You don't even, there's not even a suggested donation, right? So when you go there and you don't get what you want, your ego's not, oh, I paid for this. So I, you know, my bed needs to be super comfortable. It needs to be, you know, the highest quality possible. It's not like that at all. It's like, you're basically

living like a monk for 10 days and you just, you get what you get and you're practicing renunciation. And on top of that, you're learning a meditation technique that will help you learn how to react less. Cause that's where a lot of our trouble comes from. It's just that we're constantly just reacting, reacting, reacting, and it'll happen so quickly that it feels like we don't even have a choice. It's just like, oh, I'm just, you know, this person said that and I'm angry. But it's like, no, there's actually, when you cultivate the mind, there's space there and you can take advantage of that space and see choices.

Should I do what I did before or should I act in a new way that is actually much more skillful? We know these lessons because we teach these lessons to our children. When a kid gets angry, we say, take a breath. And it's that beat and the clarity in that space and that beat and that breath that allows for alternative points of view or perspective. And I mean, admittedly, it's taken me a long time i'm a reactor where somebody will show me something like i hate it and then i don't actually hate it you know yeah or somebody will show me something that's gone wrong at work like why can't anybody just get something right

just i always tell people just ignore me for the first sentence or two yeah yeah because then the rational sort of you know i'll settle me like actually's fine. Don't worry about it. It's not a big deal. But I've had to learn to bring that breath up to before the initial reaction. It always gets there. And I guess this is a whole idea of being triggered, you know? We're all triggered by all kinds of things. And sometimes it's just fatigue. You know, something can set us off.

Hunger. But to be aware of it. Like I'll actually say to somebody to somebody, just so you know, I'm a little hangry. Probably not going to be a little bit nice be something like, I'm hangry and I'm a bit of an asshole. And amazingly, just simply acknowledging that truth makes me less of an asshole. I'm so glad you're mentioning this because this is something that it took so long for my wife and I to learn, but we practice on a daily basis, literally what you're saying. We will check in a few times a day and just tell each other, this is how I feel. This is what I'm, this is what's currently happening inside of me. And, you know, sometimes it's when we wake up and if one of us just wakes up feeling angry or tough or like dense or exhausted, you know, for whatever reason, we let each other know. So that way, the person who's feeling it knows and the other person who's

around them is aware of it so both people get more information that wasn't there before and if ever i'm feeling like that and i let her know it helps me frame myself in my mind and i'm like okay so if you know this then be very aware of how you string your sentences and be very aware of like, as the mind is so tricky and moves so fast, it really doesn't like responsibility. It's like, okay, how is this your fault? Right? Like this feeling that happened is happening inside of me. How did you do this? And we learned this in particular from one moment where I was working in the kitchen and my wife was in the living room and we were apart from each other for like two, three hours, just like smashing away on our laptops.

And she comes in laughing and she is like, I just spent the last few hours trying to figure out how this feeling that has nothing to do with you, how it's your fault. And I kept going further and further and further back in time, trying to just like scrounge out a reason. And she was like, and I realized it's actually, it's just me. It has nothing to do with you. And I was like, that's wild. I was like, I do that all the time too. Yeah.

And it's been really helpful. If you think about the way feelings come out, right? Usually feelings come out when right? Usually feelings come out when other people want to know how we are. I mean, literally, how are you is a polite gesture. Good to see you. How are you? I mean, most people don't answer that honestly, but that's what it is. It's me finding out how you feel. We don't wake up in the morning and go, how am I? How are my feelings today? We say, how are you feeling today? But I never say, how am I feeling today? And that practice of waking up in the middle, like, how am I feeling

today? And having an honest conversation with myself, because we're not honest with other people. And when we are, it's weird. Yeah. But when you do that- How are you today? I'm feeling a little tough, a little rough on the edges, kind of angry and a little bit punchy. How are you? And it's beautiful because, you know, I think it's probably helped decrease our arguments. I mean, it's unquantifiable, but it feels like it's like 30, 40%, like just this simple little thing that we're putting into practice on a daily basis. And when there are shifts, like we let each other know and it's like, whoa, like, you know, I'm feeling a lot better or wow, I'm feeling heavier. And then it just sets us up to have a clear sense of like what we can do to support each other, how we should step up or step back or give each other, you know, whatever it is that's needed. But it's a wonder

in terms of stopping unnecessary arguments. Cause I really feel like a lot of the arguments that we have in relationships, they're just like, you're literally the closest person that I can get to join me in my anger. And how can the mind sort of flip backwards to just get you to join? Because humans, we love to have other people share in our emotions, whether they're heavy ones

or really light and joyful ones. I had an experience not too long ago with my girlfriend. It was astonishing because it was an argument that went horribly wrong. One of us got it wrong. The other one got it wrong and poured gas on the fire. And the other one reacted to getting it wrong. And before we knew it, I mean, I can't remember the last time we had a fight like that where nobody could listen yeah nobody felt heard the thing got out of control the one thing that happened that was remarkable and we actually just talked about it recently which is neither of us would let the other person leave or quit she likes to go away and have space yeah and i was like no no no no yeah she's like but i can't talk to you if you're

gonna raise your voice with me yeah yeah and i'm like i'm not mad i'm just i'm jacked up like yeah and so i had to like give me a second and i was able to bring it down i'm like can you stay now if i can talk to you like this and she goes yes yeah and like it was the most amazing thing to get to the point where both people understood what happened. And in the moment where we were able to temper our tempers for no other reason than we wanted to get to resolution. And this is something we started a long time ago in our relationship, which is we don't fight to be right. We fight to get to resolution. And if we remember that or sometimes remind each other, simply remembering that we're in this together, like we're shoulder to shoulder, not across from each other, the idea of explaining how I feel versus this, you did this to me.

The reason I'm recalling it now is because that's what helped, which is, let me just tell you how I'm feeling right now. I'm upset. I'm mad. I'm not feeling heard. I'm feeling isolated. I'm feeling confused. I don't know what to say next because I'm saying everything wrong. And it was all accountability. And it was the ability to, instead of cast blame for how I feel, what set us on the right path was simply the two of us talking about how we felt. Yeah. And owning those feelings. Yep. No blame, no attribution.

It doesn't matter who started it. And in this moment, we'll figure no attribution. It doesn't matter who started it. And in this moment, we'll figure out what happened so it doesn't happen again later. And I think that's the mistake I've made in the past, which is we want to go right to the source and say, well, this wouldn't have started if you didn't. And this idea of simply taking responsibility, I feel this. Not you did this, I feel this. I mean, it's absolutely brilliant. I mean, I love that we're coming to similar conclusions because I think that's the way we approach arguments now because when they arise,

quickly the survival mode turns on and someone's trying to win, right? They're seeking dominance. They want to dominate the narrative, what happened. They want the apology, et cetera. But at some point in that argument, one of us will be able to pull our heads up above the water. And it's like, whoa, we're actually like, this is totally unproductive. We're not getting anywhere. And then we'll switch gears and do

similar to what you're saying is as opposed to winning, the goal becomes understanding. And when you're trying to understand, we want to take turns. We want to actively just listen as selflessly as possible. And the skill of selfless listening is just brutally difficult. It's hard. It's so hard. Brutally difficult. Especially in relationship. Yeah, yeah.

And in that moment, I'm like, okay, my goal is to listen to her perspective as best as I can so I can see how the series of events moved from her perspective, how they happened for her. And when she's saying her perspective, it's not you did this, it's your fault. It's not that. It's how I felt when this happened. In this moment, this is what I was feeling. This is what I was thinking.

And you're just describing yourself. And I actually think a lot of that, I don't know if you're familiar with like nonviolent communication, but there are like elements of that in that form of communication and how we're talking about the way we deal with these arguments. But I found then that,

I mean, we're pretty sure this is Thich Nhat Hanh who said, love is understanding. And that becomes the goal. It's not winning, it's understanding. And that moment, I the goal it's not winning it's understanding and that moment i mean it's beautiful like when you get to that point where like you get how the series of events moved for her and then she listens to you as well and you're both like oh and it doesn't make you wrong yeah it doesn't make your argument about who's right and who's wrong which may still exist yeah and sometimes there is blame sometimes Sometimes there is fault. Oh, totally. You know, but it doesn't diminish that. There's

something beautiful that happens in that moment too, when you're listening to someone's story as selflessly as possible. And I'm talking about, you're actively not trying to think about your own. You're not trying to project onto what they're saying. You're just, you're like putting effort into like just taking it all in. And I think in that process, what I felt multiple times is like you start realizing and remembering like how much you love this person. This person is not your enemy. This person is like they are your best friend, your roommate, your lover, like the person that's like, you know, for oftentimes the center of the world for you. for you. And I think it just creates so much harmony to be able to seek, you know, understanding. Because like, if you're still trying to win, you're both losing. And honestly, you're just making your ego bigger. Boy, that describes so many things, politics and everything today. But

that's a different conversation. Let me change tacks on you. Sure. A couple of things I'm curious about. One, do you remember the first poem you wrote do you remember do you actually remember it yes i think love is beautiful when shared and perfect when given i think that was the first thing i wrote after the first meditation course it was just two tiny little lines i had they're not in any book or anything i don't know if i'm ever going to do anything more with them. Love is beautiful when shared. But perfect when given. But perfect when given. Yeah.

I think that first course helped me understand a lot about how that element of love. Like, obviously you want to be in a relationship where, you know, things are moving both ways, right? It's reciprocal. Everything's flowing. But I think it does take to a certain extent. Both people have to enter the relationship with open hands because only with open hands can you give and can you receive. But when both people are actively giving, you both receive a ton. There's something about your career that is oxymoronic.

Spiritual, I think it is fair to say that you practice. Sure, yeah. The Vipassana path is definitely a high spiritual path. And your work. I mean, I read it and it is very spiritual. It is there in the most beautiful way. And you're a venture capitalist. Yeah.

Yeah. That's one of the new developments. Poet venture capitalist. Yeah. Not, not, I've not seen that on a resume. I think it's,

yeah, I haven't either. By the way, congratulations for being an artist who understands money. Yeah, thank you. Thank you. Because I don't. It took a long time.

How did that start? When I was writing Clarity and Connection and I was finishing up the manuscript, this was like sometime in 2020. We had moved to our new house. We were out in the woods. And I kept telling my wife, like for like two months, I was like, something's missing. Like there's something that I should be doing that isn't happening yet. I didn't know what it was, but then I had a check-in with my friend, Soren Gordhammer. He's a beautiful human being.

He creates Wisdom 2.0, which is a conference in Silicon Valley that brings together the mindfulness in the tech world. And he was playing with this idea of starting a fund, like a fund that is trying to invest in the next generation of platforms, platforms that will provide whatever service they're going to provide, but that when these platforms are being designed, they keep the well-being of the user in mind. So they're designed compassionately, knowing that the mind is something we should treat gently,

that we shouldn't be trying to make it more addicted. We shouldn't allow for the mind to just become more lonely, more depressed, because we see a lot of these things from the products that we've been using for the last decade. And with that understanding, we sort of took to this mission, let's try to prove that compassion is good business. And we've, you know, we finished raising a $10 million fund. We've invested in like 16 companies. And we're just trying to find companies that are aligned in this mission to try to create these compassionate products. And, you know, we've been successful so far. We found some beautiful companies that are emerging. And to me, this felt like, like to me, Young Pueblo always felt like a project, right?

Like I'm writing, but I'm writing right now. I don't know if this is always going to be a part of my life. And I want to write when I genuinely have something to say. I don't want to write the same book over and over. The idea of writing 80 books, I don't love that. Let me write a few really good ones. And I think this sort of gave me a different way to serve. Because I really feel like, you know,

with the Young Pueblo work, it's incredible the way it's grown and I'm able to impact a lot of people. But can you imagine if we're able to support the growth of companies that are like tenderly holding people's minds, you know, like next gen social media companies, or there's so many things,

or to be able to create, you know, helps the creation of more compassionate forms of AI and just all these things that are going to affect hundreds of millions, billions of people. So I'm like,

well, this is a good way to serve because if I can help shift things in a more compassionate direction, I should. One of the things you and I were talking about before we turned on the mics was the seduction of the numbers.

Oh yeah. That when you start to see the number of followers or book sales go up, it is seductive. It is addictive. It's like checking your portfolio every 15 minutes. Oh, my gosh, yeah. You know, you post something and you keep going back to see how many likes or how many.

As somebody who has overcome addiction, were you able to catch yourself? Did you start to see? Oh, for sure, especially at the beginning. I think in the beginning yourself? Did you start to see? Oh, for sure. Especially at the beginning. I think in the beginning, it's hard not to. I mean, it's set up really, it's set up super well. It's like, you know, the design is really good.

So I definitely got caught in the numbers because I mean, yeah, like, you know, I wanted to see first when I started writing, if the message connected with people, if like, are people understanding what I'm saying? The metrics have a legitimate, they're measuring something legitimate. first when I started writing, if the message connected with people, if like, are people understanding what I'm saying? The metrics have a legitimate, they're measuring something legitimate. Because that's one thing, like, especially when you're there writing in your, in your room alone, you don't know if what you're saying even makes sense. And when you put it out there, you're like, oh, it does. Okay, good. And let me figure out how to fine tune the message and all that. So to a certain degree, that was really helpful in the beginning. You know, I had to learn over time that don't let the numbers make you lose the need to

take risks as an author. Because that's one of the biggest things people lose is like, oh, I see the audience likes this. So I'm just going to keep producing this over and over and over and over. But I had to really challenge myself like, OK, you know, I have to try new things and to be able to keep expanding my voice as a writer and just to see, you know, what else I can do. And it was challenging. Baz Luhrmann, the director. Love him.

I love the way he talks about his work. I feel the same way and it sounds like you may as well. He said when he's working on something, it's like his child and And he invests everything, every fiber of his being and sacrifices so this child can be the best version of itself possible. And then when the project is done, he'll let it go out into the world and it goes off and lives its life and he goes on to the next project. He says, people come up to him and say, oh, my God, I love Moulin Rouge. And he'll say, oh, how is he?

I haven't talked to him in forever. Say hi for me. You put the work out in the world, especially I think for authors, which is I have no idea where my books go. I can look at a number and say, oh, that's how many I've sold, but I can't know impact.

And I learned this lesson a very funny way, which is, have you ever had this idea of hallway talk? So like when you go for a meeting and somebody walks you to the meeting, you have to feel the dead air because otherwise it's just really awkward. Sure. And it's usually like hot day today

or how was your trip? Yeah. It's nonsense. Yeah. And as soon as you walk into the conference room or the office, the conversation stops immediately. So that's what happened to me.

I had a meeting at the Pentagon and this big general comes to get me and we go down the hall and hallway big general comes to get me and we go down the hall and hallway talk ensues. And he says, hey, Simon, I had everyone in my office read your book. And I said, my publisher thanks you. And he said, tell him not to bother. I had them read my copy. And I realized, oh my goodness, total sales won.. Yeah, yeah. Total impact, huge. Huge. Versus going to an event where they give out 500 free copies of my book. Total book sales, 500, but they use them as coasters and doorstops.

Total impact, zero. Yeah. And that's when I learned that I couldn't connect numbers to impact. Oh my gosh. Over time, there's a correlation, but I couldn't. And so I love this idea of producing beautiful work, poetry or whatever it is, and leaving it into the world and letting it just live its own life. And it goes places you wouldn't expect. Like your kids go off and do things that you would never imagine.

And I just love that. And my responsibility is then to find the next challenge, to find the next thing. And like you, you know, I like pushing myself and I like doing different things, but you start to realize that especially when your work makes other people money, that you may have a risk tolerance, but they don't. Oh yeah. And so when I announced to my publisher that I was going to do something profoundly different. Oh, how pissed were they? Oh, it didn't go well. Did it affect the advance? I didn't care about the advance. Yeah. Because I wanted to do this project. Yeah. And I basically did a book that was for adults, but looked like a children's book. Sweet. And it had one sentence per page. Yeah.

And I wanted to make one of the pages scented, which was a difficult conversation. And finally, we made it happen. But when we put the scented page in, they wanted to advertise it. They put it on Instagram, put a sticker on the cover of the book. Now with scented page, you know, because I had this custom scent, the scent of optimism,

the smell of optimism. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I was like, no, no, it has to be a surprise. It has to be a surprise for the people who buy the book. I don't want to put it anywhere in any marketing.

I'm not going to talk about it. And even my publisher, when he let me do this project, his boss, you know, the president of the publishing company, like was like, what the hell are you doing? Letting Simon do this ridiculous little project. And it's this magical, magical little book called Together is Better. That to this day is one of the proudest little things I've ever produced. It's amazing. You know, and it looks like a children's book, but it's not for children. And it teaches a lesson in very simple ways.

But the point is, is like, even if you have the risk tolerance, the pressures are overwhelming not to take risks. Oh, totally. Totally. Everybody wants you to just produce the same thing over and over again. And I think if you're like really trying to hone in and care about the sense of creativity that's kind of bubbling up from your intuition, then you just got to be ready to piss people off. And it's funny. in and care about the sense of creativity that's kind of bubbling up from your intuition,

then you just got to be ready to piss people off. And, you know, it's funny, I asked you about the advance because I have in mind, like, there is a story in my mind that will not go away. And I'm going to have to write this like tiny little fiction book at some point. And I'm like, oh, man, my, you know, they're all going to hate it. And so my plan is like, you know, either take like the, you know, a lower advance or just self-publish it. I so my plan is like, you know, either take like the, you know, a lower advance or just self publish it. I always tell young authors who come to me for advice, don't choose the publisher who simply offers you the biggest advance. Choose the publisher you're going to fight best with because you're going to have creative disagreements. And I always remind them that a big advance is two things. It's your ego and it's insurance against a bad book. Yeah.

Because if you write a good book, the advance actually, it doesn't matter. It's your ego and it's insurance against a bad book. Yeah. Because if you write a good book, the advance actually, it doesn't matter. It pays out and it literally is nothing. And the number of times I've seen people ignore my advice

where they simply chose the publisher that offered them the biggest money and they ended up writing a crap book that never earned out and ended up failing.

And if you're going to write something and invest that kind of sweat and discomfort, it's got to be worth it. It's got to matter in the world. Yeah. And you know what?

I tell people too. I'm like, okay, the advance is something, but you got to look at the rate per book, right? Like what are you making per book sold? Because that's where like one, you should be trying to write the best book you've ever written. Right. And if it is that, it's going to far outpace the advance and it'll just be selling for decades and there's something that jay-z said and he wrote he wrote in an album he said i treat my first like my last and my last like my first yeah in terms of whatever he's

creating yeah yeah yeah and i keep that mentality forever man i'm like if i'm gonna write a book i have to treat it like it's the first thing I've ever made. And also like if I'm never going to write a book again, it has to like just be fire. That's perfect. And hopefully it'll inspire people in ways where they know that transformation is possible. Yeah. Tell me a story, a specific story from your career. It doesn't matter when in your career that something you were involved in, something you were doing, maybe it was something you wrote, that you absolutely loved being a part of this thing. And if everything you do is like this one specific thing, you'll be the happiest person in life forever.

you know, forever? You know, I actually think it's this book. Clarity and Connection. I think I wrote Inward at a time when I was really just learning how to be a writer. It was also like a very, the era was very sort of hyper minimalistic and I love the book. There's tons of people who just love that book so much and I'm so happy for them. But then for me, like Clarity and Connection has something that I'm like, this is the book. Like, I feel like as an author, like I arrived, you know, like I can stand on this book. And it's funny too, to me that it's also the one that's like most highly rated online. So like, I think other people are seeing that as well.

But when I read through it again, I'm like, this is pretty good. You know, this is like, it's putting out there the message that I feel is quite valuable for people to see in terms of personal transformation and relationships. And I think a number of times, and, you know, it's not like one exact story, but a number of times I've come across people who are like, this helped save my life. You know, I mean, literally just the other day when I was speaking at Wisdom 2.0, we were talking about venture capital. And then one person came up to

me with this book and she was like, this literally saved my life. I was dumbfounded because we've also been in the pandemic, right? So there haven't been book signings and all these things for a number of years. And when I was listening to her story and heard how much this changed the trajectory of her life, I couldn't think about anything else for like two weeks. I was just like, my goodness, like, I do not know the impact that I'm having. It is so much bigger, like what you're saying, it's so much bigger than numbers. And you just, you just, you don't know, you know, you don't know the way these things are sort of out there just multiplying and flying. But your work is profound and you've written multiple pieces. What was it about clarity and connection that when you look at it, you say, if everything that I do is like

this one thing, I'll be the happiest person alive. I think it's because I, I was bold in this book and I did not stick to just writing minimalistic little short pieces, like little poems, little quotes. And in this book, I actually started delving into the essays that now I have so much joy writing. And if I was not bold in that moment and was like, you know, really just made my publisher like, no, like it's going to be long and we're going to keep it long and allowed these essays to be interspersed in that book amongst the smaller poems and quotes, I wouldn't be the writer who I am now. So I think that book carries my boldness and even some pieces that I have at the very end of the book where I'm talking about the world. And some people like, you know, the right reviews and they're like,

just keep writing about love and don't talk about the world. But it's like, no, like all these things are interconnected. Right. So putting in everything that I genuinely thought, and, you know, some of my perspectives may have changed since then. I actually haven't read those last pieces in a while. But the fact that I did it and I was like, yeah, you know, like I'm not going to let them stop me. I'm going to be bold and I'm just quite happy with how it came out. Tell me an early specific happy childhood memory.

I remember, I think wrestling with my brother stands out where we would watch Monday Night Raw so often. And I think there was one particular evening where we're just like doing all these moves on each other and being intentional about not hurting each other. And my mom's like, stop fighting, you know, stop fighting. She's just like, keeps trying to like reign us in, but we just, we were just having the time of our life. Like, and it was definitely something that happened multiple times, but I like vividly remember these moments when I think about my brother, like, and he's like five years old. And so he would, you know, had like 20, 30 pounds on me. So whenever he was like doing a particular wrestling move on me, my thing was, I can't breathe. I can't breathe. Cause it's like having

this, you know, bigger kid on top of me. But, uh, I love those moments. Yeah. So what's interesting about those two memories is that the same memory, which is you're wrestling something bigger than you. Yeah. And you even pointed out those essays at the end. You talked about the length of the pieces. I'm not just writing one and, you know, a couple of line quotable things. Yeah. I'm writing, I'm taking on something bigger than me. Yeah. Literally and figuratively. And I'm going to deal with subjects that are bigger than me. There was internal wrestling. There was wrestling with the subject and there's wrestling with the publisher who wanted to just have you like your mom, just stop wrestling, you know, and you're like, no, gonna wrestle.

And I think now that you are bigger, physically you're bigger than a child, but also your career is bigger, that I think you now have a responsibility to become your older brother, which is your responsibility is to force others to wrestle. Yeah, you know. And wrestle you in the sense that you give us thoughts

that we have to go inwards. Like when I read your work, some of it's like, oh yeah, I love that. You know, just like sometimes it's a turn of phrase. Sometimes you just capture an emotion perfectly. But sometimes you make me look at myself and go, yeah, fuck, shit. You know, when I think about my reaction to the work

and why I bought multiple copies and gave them out to friends, it's not because it was beautiful and poetic. Sure, that's nice. It's because it forced me to wrestle. And I'm so glad hearing you say this because I think that's the point of this book. It's like, whether you agree with it or not,

it should make you reflect. Like it should, you know, hopefully it brings back some particular memory or something that you have left sort of semi-unanswered. And it's making you see, like, am I going in the right direction? Am I not? And I really, you know, double down. Like, whether you agree with it or not, what's your perspective?

Right? What are you holding? And, like, how is that affecting your actions? But even if I go back to your story, you know, the drug addiction, which is choosing not to wrestle was the drugs oh totally but choosing to wrestle was the willingness to get sober taking in all the responsibility

and I think when you're at your natural best and when you're your most creative and you even said it like wrestling with your brother was so much fun yeah you know it doesn't mean it's easy no so hard

and having somebody heavy on top of you sucks I was always getting stomped on yeah and he's bigger than you yeah but you seem to have the most fun when you're wrestling something bigger than you. Yeah. Thank you for noticing that. You actually made me feel so seen that I felt all the blood moving in a different, like in a different way inside my body. And it's funny because I've been having these conversations with my wife where now that I'm getting into the

venture capital world, I'm also going to try to, you know, raise a pre-seed round, a million dollar pre-seed round for a startup that I'm building that is going to be around relationships, but won't come out till next year. But there's something about my mind that likes to exist on the macro level. Like I like to see, you know, the big picture, you know, like history, like seeing the currents of history move up and down and how impact could happen at sort of the, you know, at the levels of millions and hundreds of millions of people. And I like playing in that field. And to me, it's like, it's another expression of creativity. And when we were talking, you know, going back to the beginning of our life, it's making me realize that a beautiful life I think has to have

the challenging element to it right because if it's if it's just easy and soft and leaning towards dullness you know which no life really is

like life is like it's going to smack you we talked about how beautiful our relationships are by talking about the fights the fights

yeah and I think you're right I think a beautiful life is a challenging one yeah or has challenge in it Diego I'm so grateful that you came and stopped by. It's such a pleasure. It's such a pleasure. This is the first time we've met. So it was like, for me,

I'm fanboying. So it's a real thrill. Likewise. Yeah. It's a real joy. Thank you. Thank you for creating such a beautiful space. If you enjoyed this podcast and would like to hear more, please subscribe wherever you like to listen to podcasts. And if you'd like even more optimism,

check out my website, simonsynic.com for classes, videos, and more. Until then, take care of yourself, take care of each other.