A Bit of Optimism - Enchantment with Chloe Valdary

Episode Date: June 29, 2021

What is the best way to navigate the world of diversity, equity and inclusion? Chloe Valdary’s point of view is different from the norm. The founder of the Theory of Enchantment believes the best way for us to come together is to first find love within ourselves. And the results are...enchanting. This is…A Bit of Optimism.The Theory of Enchantment - WebsiteChloe's feature in The AtlanticYouTube: http://youtube.com/simonsinekFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/simonsinekLinkedin: https://linkedin.com/in/simonsinek/Instagram: https://instagram.com/simonsinek/Twitter: https://twitter.com/simonsinekPinterest: https://www.pinterest.com/officialsimonsinek/ 

Since the murder of George Floyd, individuals and organizations have been forced to take a hard look at how they think about diversity, equity, and inclusion, DEI. And there are some competing theories as to how we should do that. repeating theories as to how we should do that. Chloe Valdory has some ideas that are different to many of the standard ways in which it's being discussed. Hers starts with love. This is a bit of optimism. Chloe, thanks so much for joining me. I do appreciate it. Sure. I want to have an honest conversation with you. Since the murder of George Floyd, the significance of DEI in our workplace has become amplified, and for good reason.

And a lot of organizations are forced, and a lot of not just organizations, I think a lot of us, are forced to take a look at ourselves and our communities and our companies and how we organize them and lead them. And a lot of companies are seeking help from DEI practitioners to help them do better. I understand it's not a new industry, but it's a growing industry. And I would argue still figuring itself out. For sure. And from the stories that I'm hearing, itself out. And from the stories that I'm hearing, some of it isn't working as intended. It's either creating more division or creating backlash. I've heard in some cases. I read about you in an article in The Atlantic. I read about your work. And you had a very different point of view about how DEI is currently and, dare I say, traditionally, normally being trained. And that's why I wanted to talk to you, because I was really inspired by your point of view. So I guess the first question is, how did you come to your point of view? Because your point of view is different than the norm.

I suppose I should say what my point of view is. That's probably a good starting point, yes. In order to answer that question, I guess when it comes to specifically tackling the issue of racism and combating racism, and to be precise, by combating racism, I mean combating supremacist ways of thinking. My understanding is that supremacist ways of thinking are actually fundamentally informed by an inferiority complex within the human beings who hold those supremacist ways of thinking, whether that stems from a feeling of a lack of self-worth or a lack of belonging or a lack of a sense of meaning, which are all experiences that we can all fall into just by virtue of being human. But the way they can manifest when it comes to this topic negatively

is in the supremacist way of thinking. And so, you know, I have an anti-racism firm called Theory of Enchantment, and we do training, but our training is rooted in the idea that you have to actually give people a self-refinement practice in order to deal with all of the things that are part of the human condition that make you susceptible to that overcompensating impulse, whether that's fear of imperfection, whether that's dealing with vulnerability, dealing with mortality, dealing with baggage. All of these things, again, are natural to the human condition. So the idea behind that is if you can be equipped with a practice that will enable you to have a healthy and holistic relationship with yourself first, then you will be able to be open, be radically curious about difference, and translate that love and compassion that you have for the self to the other. How is DEI currently implemented or trained that makes your point of view different? Well, I'd say there are different types of trainings out there, but one that has certainly

reached more popularity in the last year is a kind of training that isn't really based on the inner psychology of the human being. It simply says that if you are white, then you by definition engage in quote-unquote whiteness. You have to atone for your whiteness. This might take the form of people being encouraged to self-segregate in trainings and speak about their experiences, whether if they're Black or if they're white. This may take the form of what some people have called struggle sessions and getting white people to sort of admit to their privilege and admit to how they have perpetuated advantages over disadvantaged individuals.

Part of the problem with that approach is that it actually runs the risk of increasing that insecurity that we spoke about among both Blacks and whites, quite frankly. And it is, again, that insecurity that is fodder for the impulse to overcompensate, which feeds right into supremacist ways of thinking in the first place. So by making us feel insecure, we're actually feeding the beast. Exactly. And so what you're proposing as an alternative is to, instead of viewing the room as black and white, is to view everybody in the room as human beings who all struggle with issues

of insecurity, inadequacy, belonging, the list goes on of what we all struggle with. And helping us look inside and say, this is who I am and coming to terms with that. How does that then translate to improving race relations? The idea is that if you have a much more healthy relationship with yourself, if you're able to deal healthily with all the things that trip you up, let's say someone is rude towards you. And instead of seeing that rudeness as, oh, you're being rude, this is wrong. You actually start to internalize that because you've recognized that something within you is also capable of rudeness and has also been rude in the past. So then you are

triggered by that. And then you start to triggered by that and then you start to other that person and then you start to condescend to that person. So the idea is that by becoming aware of your own complexity and your own capacity for good and evil, your own capacity for joy and despair, all these things exist within you, you'll be less likely to otherize people and to condescend to them because you will also recognize the complexity that exists within them. Hard question for you. Go ahead. I am drawn to your work because my work very much centers around love and community and

finding common ground. In your opinion, what is it about the way that DEI is predominantly taught today that became more popular now than your point of view? Why isn't it the other way around? Well, I quite frankly honestly don't think most people engage with the writings and the thinking of individuals like Dr. King and James Baldwin. We tend to pay lip service to these individuals. I mean, James Baldwin has some controversial statements, certainly statements that would be controversial in light of today's in vogue diversity approaches. But instead of seriously wrestling with that, we might memorize a quote or two, but we aren't actually challenged by their ideas because their ideas were radical. What are some of the more important lessons that Baldwin and King shared that have informed this point of view for you? King's was this notion that if you are a survivor of racial oppression, and I say survivor,

not victim, because Baldwin actually said, I have been mistreated. I am not a victim. I have been mistreated. Dr. King taught that if you are a survivor of racial oppression, you specifically were susceptible to falling into a spirit of revenge, and to falling into a spirit of resentment, and to falling into a spirit of self-righteousness. And so you have to be on guard with yourself to guard yourself against that tendency. So many of the protesters who went out to protest during the civil rights movement, before they went to protest, they would ask themselves, am I harboring a spirit of resentment? Am I harboring a spirit of self-righteousness? If so, I'm not going to go out and protest today because the person who is engaging in racist behavior is still my brother, is still my sister. And I don't want to project anything that's going to add to the suffering that my oppressor is experiencing.

If someone is feeling so worthless that they feel they have to claim that they are better than another person because of their skin color, then that person is suffering, right? And that's a very also different language that was used then that we don't really talk about today. But the idea is when I protest, I'm going to attempt to protest with absolute love flowing through me. And if I'm not in a headspace, if I'm not in a spirit where that's possible, then I'm not going to protest. So that's a very hard, again, radical, and I think the true meaning of the word work. Can you tell me a specific story where you saw this transformation take place, where you saw the introspection happen, even begrudgingly. I can give you a story specifically that I know

about a guy who practiced these ideas, Daryl Davis. So, Daryl Davis is an African-American man who's a brilliant musician. That's his first claim to fame. But his second claim to fame is that he successfully got hundreds of members of the KKK to leave the KKK. And he did this by painstakingly deciding to be in community with these individuals, right, to engage them, to essentially wear them down, right, and to continue to be in community with these individuals, even though they didn't like him because of his skin color. And by doing that for long periods of time, this inevitably created an identity crisis on the part of these men, because their ideology toldaryl Davis to be able to do this, it required that Daryl Davis know himself and understand his own self-worth. He had such a strong sense of worthiness that it didn't matter what they told him in the beginning. It didn't matter what they

said to him. It just went through him, essentially. It didn't even affect him. That's why the theory of entrapment starts out with the understanding that you, the practitioner, have to understand your self-worth and you have to move from that place. Because if that is insecure, there'll be all kinds of actions that you'll take to feel a sense of worthiness. And some of those actions may be unhealthy and detrimental to you and detrimental to others. Many would argue that it is not for the person who is the survival of abuse to have to then be the one to look at themselves, do the hard work of introspection, to then do the hard work of

learning to withstand additional abuse, to over time to be able to create the cognitive dissonance like there's been enough hard work quote-unquote uh being the survivor of abuse i we shouldn't have to now do more to help them fix their problem this is an interesting kind of language and way of thinking I've certainly been exposed to by individuals who bring this up in some of my classes. That language doesn't quite fall on my ear in a meaningful way because it still somehow seems to perpetuate the illusion of separation that we have in our minds between ourselves and the other, right? And you know what? I would agree with you. It's not your responsibility to reach out. It's

not your responsibility to try and change that person or to try to influence that person. But all I can tell you is that I know something a little bit about human nature. And this approach is kind of an evolutionary hack against falling into a spiral of vengeance, and that's what we have to be on the lookout for as human beings. That's the only other alternative that I see to this, and again, it's not simply about holding people accountable for their actions. The problem becomes when we start to other people, when we start to say to ourselves, oh, I could never do that, right? I could never see myself in a position where I would treat someone like that. That's not possible for me to do that, which is a delusion because

every single human being on earth is capable of that. I just have seen human history play itself out into revenge, counter-revenge, revenge, counter-revenge. And I think it's super necessary that we avoid that. You said a term, the illusion of separation. Can you unwrap that for me? I'm still trying to unwrap it myself. Okay. So take off a couple of pieces of the paper then. I think it goes back to the first principle of the theory of enchantment, which is treat people like human beings, not political abstractions. And when we go over this in the workshop, we talk about Kendrick Lamar's line where he says, I got power, poison, pain, and joy inside my DNA.

And we talk about how every single person has this complexity of emotions and psychology and neurobiology. Every single human being, this is what makes us human. And we speak about how if your social psychological needs aren't met, if you are experiencing a lack of a sense of belonging, whether it's at home, whether it's with your friends, whether it's out in the street, professional life, etc. at home, whether it's with your friends, whether it's out in the street, professional life, etc. If you don't have a sense of connection with others, then that can create a void in your life. And that void can be filled with extremist ways of thinking, because extremist groups will come to you and exploit your insecurities and tell you, oh, you want something to belong to? We'll give you something to belong to. You want something to believe in? We'll give you something to belong to. You want something to believe in? We'll give you something to believe in. There is no psychological difference between the way a gang recruits young men and the way white nationalist groups recruit young people

or individuals in general. It's the same psychology. So when I say this illusion of separation, what I'm really trying to get to is the fact that this potential exists within every single one of us. And we need to be able to stop and recognize that. And this is a part, by the way, of ultimately recognizing the awesomeness, the vastness of what it means to be human, which means containing the potential to do both good and bad. And there's a kind of arrogance in assuming that because you look a certain way, right, or because you are a certain gender or whatever, that you're incapable somehow of falling into these cycles. You're not because you're human. So you're very capable. be able to say to your brother, your sister, your behavior is wrong, right? But I'm separating you

from your behavior. Because I know that I too, if I were to find myself in a certain context, in a certain situation, could fall into that same thought pattern that produced that behavior. So that's what I'm getting at when I talk about the illusion of separation. Do you want to know why I think your work will not be the norm? Oh God, silent. Please tell me why. Trust me, I want it to be. I'm a fan of your point of view.

And you're sharing a perspective with me that I love. But I think the reason your work will not become the standard, replacing what the standard is now, is because your work is difficult and it's the same reason why the vast majority of the population are not in shape it's because working out and eating well is difficult and the reason why a lot of people in America don't have savings is because saving is difficult and spending is much easier and fun and eating chocolate cake is much easier and fun. And I'm

not equating that the other work is more fun, but it is easier. Your work is forcing someone to face their own demons, look inside, take themselves on. And you rightfully said, this is hard work. You're starting people on a journey that has to last their entire life. I guess the question I'm left with is, how do we help the spread of the work become, even if it's imperfect, normalized? The theory of enchantment is heavily influenced by the arts and by pop culture. And I think that there is something, you know, we talk about the problematic, challenging aspects of American society. But I also think that there's wisdom and hidden gems of wisdom in our artistic culture that we can sort of revivify or use to revivify these conversations. are used to revivify these conversations. When I bring up Kendrick Lamar in the context of this kind of a training, when I bring up Maya Angelou, when I bring up James Baldwin,

these are individuals that are still looked up to, even if in an albeit superficial way. So if I can probe people to dig deeper, to look harder, I think we have a chance. That's all. There's obviously no guarantee. There's never a guarantee, but we have to give ourselves a chance. I hope that there are some people listening in right now who are running organizations, leading organizations in some words, leading a team who want to do this work, who struggle to do this work. I know of a few who have gone down what you and I are calling the more accepted or standard path and had it blow up in their face and now, once bitten twice shy, don't know what next step to take, who are looking for some specific steps that they can take that

may be different than the ones they've tried. Can you please share, whether it comes directly from the theory of enchantment or otherwise, something specific that we can and should do? I would say to practice shadow work. What is shadow work? So the shadow is a term popularized by the psychologist Carl Jung, who is a heavy influence on the work of the theory of enchantment. The idea is that the shadow is everything that you do not like about yourself, that you repress, and that you project onto other people. So I'll take a simple case of basic racism. Someone's racist towards you. someone says something to you or insults you because of your skin color. There's a difference between viewing that person and seeing what

they've just done as unacceptable, harmful behavior, wrong behavior, right? There's a difference between saying you need to not do that, or you need to be held accountable for that if it becomes more than an insult. There's a difference between that and having your ego be triggered by that. When your ego is triggered, that means that you have begun to otherize that person and you have begun to basically see yourself as better than that person, as above that person. And then you become affected by superiority complex. And then you start to look down. So the way you do shadow work is you basically practice identifying people that you don't like, identify the behavior that they engage in that you don't like, and then you identify that behavior within

you. And that's shadow work. And you practice it. All right. I'm doing it in my head right now. Thinking of someone I don't like, the behavior that I don't like. So this is about criticizing the behavior, not the person. This is being able to separate the behavior from the person. So in sensing I don't like that person, I'm trying to identify the behavior that I don't like. I'm depersonalizing it.

And then that way I can see that behavior in myself and then say, okay, I'm reacting to myself in reacting to them. That's the basis of shadow work. Exactly. And if you do that over time, and I've practiced this, you find that you are less triggered,

your ego is less triggered by someone who is doing something that you don't like where you can just speak to them in a way that is reflective of the second principle of the theory of enchantment, which is criticize to uplift and empower, never to tear down or destroy. Criticize to uplift and empower, never to tear down and destroy. Give me a specific example. I have to tell you the truth. I'm super, in the past, I'm less triggered by it now. But in the past, I have been triggered by people who are in my workshops who say things that are definitely emblematic of that popular way of training. Go on, please, please be specific.

So they will say things like, I just want to acknowledge that most of us in this room are white. room are white. Again, still perpetuating the illusion of separation between, they still can't see that the people in the room are sort of part of the beloved community that Dr. King spoke about. They can't see the people in the room as essentially family members. They're still being fixated on skin color. So I've had those experiences. And how did it trigger you? I felt it physically. Like I know when I'm triggered because I feel it physically in like my gut. Anger is. Anger. Like this person is annoying.

This person is like, what previous training did this person take? Like this person is just spewing nonsense or things that they heard online or just like repeat reciting propositions, whatever. And then I began to like other that person, right? I began to see that person in my mind as less than, right? I remember I stopped myself and I was like, I was like, wait a minute, Chloe, you have totally said things in the past

that were off-putting. So you have also engaged in this kind of behavior. So why are you acting like this is like a foreign thing? This is like a non-human thing. You have engaged in this behavior. This behavior is very human. She's still your sister. So you might think she's wrong. And I did think she was wrong, but that's different from engaging her on the level of, again, that beloved community, versus being triggered by it and then starting to otherize that person.

What's the language of uplifting criticism versus destructive criticism? You know, if you were to criticize me or someone else destructively, what does that sound like? Like, it's just me saying that you're trash, right? It's like you're trash and you'll always, you're like, you know, you're trash and you'll always be trash and you always were trash and all your family. Right. So I didn't want to go into it, but yeah, that's destructive. And what's uplifting criticism. What does that sound like? Uplifting criticism sounds like, listen, what you did was wrong, but I'm telling you this because I care about you because I know that you're capable of so much more.

You have so much potential. And I'm not telling you this to tear you down. I'm telling you this because I love you and because I care about you. That's uplifting. How does one respond to that if it comes across as condescending? So the way it doesn't come across as condescending is you acknowledge the times that you've acted like that. Ah, okay. Got it.

You say, listen, I've done the same thing. I'm not speaking, you know, out of turn. I've also done this and I felt really bad afterwards. So I'm not telling you this, you know, I'm not telling you this random. I've also engaged in similar kind of behavior. So I know how it can make me feel powerful in the moment. And then I feel really crappy later. So that's how you actually give someone

psychological safety to hear that criticism is by being vulnerable. And so bringing yourself down to the same level, which is I'm not better than you, I am of you. We are both messy human beings. You have these three principles of enchantment. Can you just go through what the three principles are, please? Yeah. So the three principles of the theory of enchantment are number one, treat people like human beings, not political abstractions. Number two, criticize to uplift and empower, never to tear down or destroy. And number three, try to root everything you do in love and compassion. I want to go back to principle number one. Can you give me a specific example of a situation that any of us might find ourselves in where we are able to treat someone like a human being and not a political abstraction?

I feel like the first principle is primarily about having people explore what it means to be human, which is to say that you're not fixed. You're not simply a caricature. So if you engage in good behavior one day, that doesn't mean you're perpetually angelic. And if you engage in bad behavior another day, that doesn't mean you're perpetually angelic. And if you engage in bad behavior another day, that doesn't mean you're demonic, right? I think the first principle is understanding the complexity that exists within human beings and speaking to that in general, not necessarily trying to address a problem, but having that be the lens with which you approach

everything. So whether it's Republican, Democrat, whether it's race issues, just seeing everyone with the fullness of their humanity and their complexity, as opposed to like putting people in boxes and stereotyping them and saying that you are only one thing as opposed to a whole host of things. Let's go to principle three, root everything you do in love and compassion. That's probably the hardest one, isn't it? Well, the truth is principle number three is actually a culmination of the first two principles. So once you get to principle three, you've realized that you've actually been learning how to do the work of loving yourself and others and treating yourself and others with compassion.

Fundamentally, your work actually has nothing to do with race. Your work is teaching human beings how to be better human beings. It so happens that we live in a time where race is the door that is showing us that maybe we're not acting like the versions of human beings we want to act like or be like. And in another time, it might have been something else. But in this time, race is that opening that forces us to ask ourselves difficult questions and go on the journey.

That's what it sounds like. And in so doing, in doing this work of introspection and viewing yourself and how we view others and how we treat others, ultimately, it should benefit not only how we interact with people who look differently than us, but who think differently than us, who have different political points of view on us, who have a different interpretation of what the world should look like. I mean, it should improve the quality of our friendships, of our romantic relationships. I mean, this work you're doing is about human beings getting along

better with other human beings. It just so happens that race is the forum for which this work can begin. I think that's right. I think it goes through the particular to show the universal. It's interesting because if you go through if you, if you go through the full, the full theory of enchantment course, it's very intergenerational in the sense that there's stoicism in there, but there's also the lion King in there. There's this idea that if you believe that there's certain wisdom teachings that are timeless,

then you should expect to find them across different time periods in many different forms. And we happen to teach Stoicism in both the Marcus Aurelius context, but also from the Lion King. I basically designed Theory of Enchantment to be able to speak across time and to speak across history. And ultimately I hope that it will grow in such a way that it can also speak across cultures and speak across different regions, because that would be actually really cool.

Because what that would mean is that we've unearthed something that is fundamental to the human experience that can be found across time, culture, and history. And that's a pretty cool listening to you, I'm thinking Israel-Palestine. I'm thinking all of the protracted conflicts around the world that ultimately what we've done is dehumanized each other. And the hard work is seeing ourselves in each other and seeing each other in ourselves, which is what set you on this journey in the first place? What happened that you went, this can't be right. This can't be the thing or the way. Okay. Well, I'm going to try to sum this up for you because there's a long story there. So basically I grew up in New Orleans and I grew up in a very atypical Christian family, atypical in the sense that we did not observe mainstream Christian holidays. So we didn't celebrate Christmas or Easter or any of those things. Instead, we celebrated Jewish holidays like Yom Kippur and Rosh Hashanah

and things of that nature. So this gave me an acute sensibility towards Jewish culture, but also an acute allergy to anti-Semitism, which led to, in college, I majored in international studies and started being involved in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, started doing, started hosting events around that space, and eventually discovered that both of the communities were, in many cases, othering each other and would divulge into shouting matches in lecture halls. And so I asked myself, is there something that I can create where the communities don't have to agree with each other in the end, but they can actually agree that they're going to live by these principles once they enter into this conversation with one another? So that was

what I was wrestling with in college. I hadn't had the answer yet. And then I moved to New York a year afterwards and worked with Wall Street Journal and worked on the thesis on this topic. But the thesis went from how can I get people to basically combat conflict to can I actually teach people how to love? And then that became, well, in order to teach people how to love, I have to actually ask, well, what are people already in love with? And reverse engineer a framework to teach people how to love based upon that. And Simon, people are in love with pop culture. They are in love with brands like Nike and Disney and Beyonce. These are brands that capture quasi-religious-like devotion from their fans. And I was like, why?

What is the common denominator between all of these brands? And I researched it. And the common denominator was all these brands created content where their audience saw themselves and their potential reflected back at them. So from Nike's Just Do It to the fact that almost every Disney movie is a motif for the human condition, an imperfect, flawed individual has to encounter a set of obstacles, challenges, and emerge the hero to Beyonce when she says, who run the world? Girls. Many women see themselves

and their potential reflected in that, right? This is the common denominator. So I said to myself, oh, all I have to do is create a framework that does that same thing. And I will call it enchantment. In part because of Guy Kawasaki's book, Enchantment, which I was reading at the time, but in part also because it was like, wow, people are gravitating towards things that show them the fullness of themselves and their potential. I found that incredibly enchanting. And really the idea of enchantment is that we can become in awe of the miracle that we are truly the vast and wondrous miracle that is a part of what it means to be human. And that entails being able to carry both the tragedy and the beauty of what it means to be human.

So I worked for a nonprofit for two years. The majority of that time was spent giving lectures on this new idea, theory of enchantment, specifically as it related to the Israeli Palestinian conflict. So I would go over the three principles, but I would also sprinkle in pop culture references that prove the three principles. So I did that for two years. And then I got enough people being like, you know, this doesn't just apply to geopolitics.

It applies to interpersonal strife. It applies to social emotional learning in high schools. Why don't you consider running with this and creating your own organization? So in December of 2018, started the LLC. 2019, worked to transform that 45-minute lecture into a full training. Business was slow. I'm not going to lie. Business was very slow in 2019, but I enjoyed the process of creating that course. I got a few engagements speaking at high schools primarily. My first engagement in the DEI space was actually with the Civil Rights Department of the Federal Aviation Authority in 2019.

And then in 2020, everything happened the way it happened. and then in 2020 everything happened the way it happened and i've been very fortunate to be able to take the raven chairman to many new audiences and many new circles so i'm enjoying the journey there's no guarantee you know i i respect that i get that but i'm enjoying being able to deliver this and also learn from the people who are in my workshops, learn with them, because they have something to teach me as well. That's great. That's magical. I love how you show up like a student. It's so crucial. It's so important. Especially in any space where someone is brought in to teach or instruct

or someone is introduced as an expert in to the group, the temptation is to believe your own press and to present yourself as the expert, act like the expert, for fear that others will perceive you as not the expert. And the humility of showing up as the student is not only more inviting, it's people I think are much more open to listen to you.

I wish more people knew that, to show up as a student rather. Because it's easy to be a student, right? Because you can be wrong all the time. And you can say, oh, I didn't know that. Thank you for teaching me that, you know? For sure. Also showing up as a student is an incredible antidote to having your ego be triggered. If you're showing up as a student and you're radically curious, then being wrong is no

longer a threat, right? Being wrong is part of the journey. It's a part of the learning experience. Thank you so much for taking the time. I'm so grateful. I love what you're doing. And I really hope that your work becomes the norm. Here's what I've learned. For race relations to improve in our country, all of us, all involved in the room, have to go deep inside ourselves to look at the things that make us insecure. All of us have to be able to understand we have said things to other people out of anger and desire to hurt ourselves. The only way that quote unquote, they will improve and fix themselves is if I choose to learn and work on myself. And I will never be fixed. I will just get better. In so doing, I will serve as an example for others too. And that's what makes a leader, which is I choose to do the work that I expect you get better. In so doing, I will serve as an example for others too.

And that's what makes a leader, which is I choose to do the work that I expect you to do. Beautiful. Beautifully said. I really want your work to become the standard in a high school, in a college, in a company, in a family, because I think it's essential. I know it's essential. Thank you, Simon. If you enjoyed this podcast and if you'd like to hear more,

please subscribe wherever you like to listen to podcasts. Until then, take care of yourself. Take care of each other.